The Missing Link Between Strategy and Results: Relationships | RR363

Hello, hello, and welcome back to Relationships

Rule. Today we're going to be talking about something that

often gets overlooked in business conversations, yet

the quality of relationships. If you've ever

wondered why people don't always do what seems obvious or

necessary at work, or how to build a culture where people

genuinely want to contribute. This conversation will give you

a fresh perspective. My guest today is Norman Wolf, founder

and CEO of Quantum Leaders, and the creator of the Living

Organization framework. Norman has spent decades helping

leaders understand why even the best strategies can fall short,

and what really drives results inside an organization. So,

welcome, welcome to the show, Norman.

Oh, thank you, Janice. Thank you so much for

having me. I really appreciate it.

Oh, it's my pleasure. When I first was

introduced to you, I discovered we both live in Vancouver, but

just in two different places, right? Yeah, so that was our

bond to start with. I liked

that.

Yeah, so let's dive right in. Norman, you've

spent years exploring why well-designed strategies don't

always deliver results. So, what do you see as the biggest reason

that things break down?

Well, it starts with the very foundation, what I call

the paradigm of business. Notice the paradigm is how we think

about things, how we organize our understanding of the world

we live in, and how we respond to situations, because of this

framework, right, and in the business world, the foundational

framework is business is like a black box, like a machine takes

inputs and converts it to outputs, the assumption is that

it operates based on making the box efficient, the more

efficient, the more we call it productive, efficient

optimization. The more we can do that, the more effective this

organization will be. The downside in that is no matter

how much we talk about people are our most important assets,

or that people are most important stakeholder. The

framework itself relegates people, the very ones who are

creating the results, they relegate them to nothing but a

component part, and I don't know about you or your listeners, but

being treated like a component poet never really excites me.

Yeah, you know what that reminded me of when

you were talking about it. It reminded, I used to teach school

a million years ago, and I taught elementary school, so it

was a little bit different than high school, but when my husband

taught high school, and so often teachers in high school taught

to the exams, they,

yes,

and it was most important that they got all that

stuff out, so that the kids could write the exams, but they

didn't necessarily take into consideration how different each

child is, and how they're, you know, like they don't all learn

the same, it's kind of the same, it's not exactly the same, but

it made me think of that, because the people aspect gets

relegated to that, to the back, and that's exactly

it, really does, because, and it's not done

consciously, that's what I call the paradigm trap, because it's

not done consciously or maliciously, like some people

think, leaders are just greedy, and all the, I mean, I've worked

with hundreds of leaders over the last four or five decades,

and you know they're good-hearted people, they care

about their people, but the number one responsibility is

they have to, they must get the results for the success of the

organization over time, and so they're operating from a

framework that forces them to behave in ways contrary to how

they themselves would like to behave, because that's the only

way they know to get results.

Yeah, because they don't know what else to do.

Okay,

so that's why I created the Living Organization

framework, and the basis of that is think of the organization not

as a machine but a person, and then next the question, How does

the person become optimized to create the results? That's a

very different view of the world,

right? Right.

So shift, but it's a very different view.

So that one makes me want to ask, so if if leaders

get this new plan, and they buy in, supposedly, and then they

explain it to their people, to their employees, to their teams.

They probably may think that they will naturally follow.

Through, and you know, adopt the plan, but why doesn't it work

that way?

Well, for a whole bunch of reasons, we kind of back up a

little bit and understand what motivates people to behave the

way they do.

Fair enough,

and when you do that, and you begin to unpack that,

which is what I spent a few decades now doing, it gets, it

gets complicated, but underneath the complication is simplicity,

and what I mean by that is people optimize their behaviors

to create a life that they feel they're both safe and

successful, and I've taken years of psychology and different

models like Maslow, and just reduced it to something very

simple. I want to be safe and successful in my life. I learned

from day one, from the very beginning, being raised, I

learned this event happens, I give a meaning to it, and I go,

ah, given this meaning to this event, this is the way I should

behave, and I end up collecting 1000s and 1000s of those

experiences, which is really great, because it allows me to

navigate life very easily, right? I don't have to think

about this. Woman said hello to me. What does that mean? Oh, she

batted her eyes at me. What does that

mean?

I sort of know, and I know how to respond, and I can

respond very naturally, right. So I'm very effective, and I

know when that look means I should run away.

Yeah,

you know, I mean, it's just a natural way of living

life. So, now take that very simple pattern that I just

explained and apply it to why people operate the way they do

in business. First of all, from early age on, most employees

have been trained to be good, good employees. I mean, our

whole education system, you were in the education system, even up

through university these days. We train people to be good

employees. We want to give them the skills necessary to be

employed effectively in the world. That sounds really good.

We don't train them for critical thinking, we don't train them to

take ownership for their own lives. We do train them to

follow orders from their boss. We do train them on how to learn

for the test, not necessarily learn to expand the knowledge,

but just enough to get by. So they carry these same learnings,

the same meaning making behavior pattern into our into our work

world.

Right,

so now I have a bunch of people who basically live by

boss, tell me what to do, tell me how I'm going to be graded,

and I'll optimize my behavior for that. That's not what we

want from employees anymore. We want employees who are

resilient, adaptive, can make decisions for themselves and for

the collective they're part of, and and be innovative and

creative.

Well, when you say that we don't want that

anymore. It takes me back again to when I first was in the work

world, and I was a teacher again, but I was this person. I

was young, I was curious, I was cocky, and I would ask questions

all the time, and it would always get me in trouble. Why do

we have to do this this way. Why do we? I don't read the agenda

to me, it's right here. Like, why do we write? And I didn't

like working in for other people. I found that out very

early on, and that's eventually why I got out of teaching and

started doing my own thing, but it's that compliancy thing

overriding the critical thinking and the creative thinking, and

all of that, so I don't know, I mean, I still think there's a

lot of that that happens, but I also think, because the world

has changed so much, that the younger generations don't see

themselves being in the same job for 30 years and getting a gold

watch, right, it's not the same world,

exactly right. So, one, it's not working for anybody,

but the younger generations are really making, are really

becoming resistant to it. I mean, like you, when I left

university and got my first job, I worked for Pratt, and with the

aircraft, I remember I was there, and that was like you, I

was eager, I was excited, I mean, I actually wanted to go to

work, I was tired of academics and wanted to do something

useful, so to speak, and I get into the work and I'm finding

myself really liking what I'm doing, and really early, maybe

three, four. Months into the job, my supervisor was giving me

some good advice. He said, Norman, when you come to work,

you leave your personal life at the door.

Yeah,

I mean, I couldn't figure out what he meant by

that,

right?

How do I do that? But you see, this is the pattern we

have trained our employees to live by, and I love the fact

that you use the word compliant, because in my writings lately

I'm talking, I'm asking leaders, do they want employees who are

committed or employees who are compliant, and those are very

different, very

different. Yeah, totally. So, alright, so for

leaders listening, how can they begin to recognize when

relationship dynamics are getting in the way of results,

and by the same token, other part of a question might be when

they're being compliant or when they're not, you know, when

they're being committed. I mean, can they see the difference?

They, they can if they were looking for it. I mean,

what leaders don't - what leaders say they want is

commitment, and they know all the benefits of it. They got

people who are self-starters, self-organizing; they know how

to ask the right questions, like you were saying. They ask

questions. I have to take a sidetrack, because it just

reminded me of a story I lived through. I saw during my

consulting career, I had an opportunity to become part of a

very interesting startup. I was interviewing with the CEO, and

he had a choice between me and another gentleman, and initially

he chose the other gentleman, even though his whole executive

team wanted me, but things changed, and he had an

opportunity to hire us both. We both bought, bought both of us

on.

Okay,

six months afterwards, we were at a meeting together,

lacher, we were up in Vancouver visiting UBC, and we were having

dinner, and he said to me, "You know, Norman, I don't understand

it. So, what he said, when I hired David, I thought he was

the perfect employee. During the interview process, he very

clearly let me know he, he was the lieutenant, I was the

general. Yes, sir. Whatever you want, I would do. Over the last

six months, he constantly brought me one nightmare after

another. It's like every morning I come in, there was another

problem. He was, you on the other hand, I never thought you

would be compliant, right? To use that term, that's not what

he said, but something along those lines. You, you were pain

in the butt. He asked me all these questions, but you never

ever brought me a problem, you knew when to bring me a $2

issue, and you knew you didn't have to bring me $100,000 issue.

He said, How did you do that? And I said to him, because I

asked all those questions, I understood what was important to

you, and that's what leaders really want. They want norms,

they want people who ask those questions, so they get right,

but they feel like those people are challenging them, and they

look for those people who are compliant. So, here comes

somebody, you know, it's it's our business strategy, and they

get everybody nodding and saying yes, we're all bought in, and

all of that, but they're not committed, they're just

compliant. I can't hear you.

There we go. Sorry, isn't that usually a

leader who perhaps the Peter Principle is in, is in play,

they're they're not confident in the role they're in, or, or, you

know, they've gone too high up the totem pole, or no,

some of that, some of that is probably true, but I

think mostly there's because business is what I call a

time-based game, in other words, we have to get results quickly.

Yes,

it's easy to accept, it feels good in the moment to

accept people nodding and saying yes, and I understand, and I buy

in, rather than stepping back and saying, are they complying,

are they committing, and that takes a little bit more of a

nuance. It takes more relationship. It's not just

hearing what you want to hear it's

okay,

testing the relationship, the quality of the

relationship, right?

Right,

that takes more time, and it takes more skills to be

able. It also

takes, I think, the will to really care about

people and know. Know that, that is, we're to the very beginning

of what I said, right? Of the thing that often gets overlooked

is the people piece, and, and so the leader, I guess, has to be

that kind of person themselves, caring about people.

Well, I went again. I tend not to, you know, quote

unquote judge people by saying they're not caring, because they

do care. I think it comes back to, and this is the part a lot

of people miss, it's not that they don't care, it's they don't

know how to care in a way that shows up correctly. There is,

they do care about the people, but when it comes to dealing

with the people in the environment where there is time

pressures and results have to get done. How do I do that is

the question that's left unanswered. Right, what skills

do I need? It's easy. Here's a, here's a metaphor outside of

business.

Okay,

that I'll draw a parallel to. I come home from

work, see my wife, she's a little bit something's feels

energetically off. I say, Honey, what's up? Nothing, everything's

fine,

right?

You laugh, that's not uncommon, everybody's face that,

right?

Yeah,

in my relationship with my wife, I'm going to say I hear

the words, but the music doesn't match,

right?

Right. So I'm going to probe a little bit very nicely.

Business, I hear the words, I might have a sense that the

music doesn't match because I'm human, so I can sense it.

Yeah,

but it's easier to accept the words than probe

deeper, because I've got 1000s of other things to do,

and don't rock the boat,

and it's.. I just don't have time, because I don't know

how to, in that moment, say, you know, I hear what you're saying,

but it doesn't ring true to me. Can we talk about that?

Something as simple as that, right? But we've learned not to

pay attention. Well, not should say every leader, a lot of

leaders now, the really good leaders learn to pay attention

to that intuitive sense about relationships, and so it's not

that the leaders don't care, it's just they don't know how to

communicate. I'll tell you a side story again. So I've been

working with one of my CEOs, he come, we have a one on one on a

Monday morning, and he said to me, "You know, Norman, I just

have to tell you, ever since I've been working with you, my

wife said, over the weekend, I've become a better husband

now. It's the same skill set, right? I mean, it's the same

ability to listen to hear the lyrics, but also hear the music

and respond to both in a way that is loving and supportive

and caring. That's what people want, they want to be kids, they

just want to be seen and heard,

seen, acknowledged, appreciated, heard. They don't

have to be right all the time. Most people know they're not

right, right? They want to appreciate it, and so

that's that's emotional intelligence, though,

isn't it? That's it. Is

but the problem with emotional intelligence, it is

emotional, but most people don't know how to train people for

emotional intelligence,

right? Right, of course.

Talk about it, we measure it. So part of the

living organization framework, recognizing that there's a

skill-based need, is why I developed the six core skills

for leadership that lead the living organization, which we'll

be talking about within in the second book that's coming out in

September, called Leading the Living Organization. Okay,

do we need to? Let's just, can we just talk

about what those six things are?

Sure, sure, let's

do that.

So the first skill is the ability to hear the music as

well as the words, right?

Yes,

and to do that, you really have to get out of your

head

to your heart, right?

You have to

get your heart, yeah,

right. And that's in fact what we call that skill,

heart-centered wisdom.

Okay,

the head is always busy, and everybody knows we got

the monkey mind, and it's chattering all the time, and

it's always trying to figure out and problem solve, and all of

that, but the head cannot pick up the subtle signals of life.

We do that intuitionally, we do that through the body, and we

have to be in a state where we're consciously reading that

energy field around us, reading the music of the situation,

whether it be in conversation or just observing what's going on

in the world, it doesn't matter. Our place in the marketplace,

it's those who say they're feeling something

rather than thinking something.

Yeah, yeah. And so I call it the place where we're

open to intuition. Of insight, inspiration, and wisdom, right?

Additional information that is absolutely critical to adding to

a logical mind that additional information, so we make better

decisions.

Okay,

in the relationship part we were just talking about,

it's simply learning how to listen to the music and the

words at the same time, and know when there's a disconnect, and

then follow up on that. It also means learning how to

communicate both your words and your intention. You know, when,

when I say something, I might think I'm fooling you by just

saying, "Oh, I'm fine, but you're

not.

So, why don't I just simply recognize I don't care

what words I use, you're going to pick up the music, so let me

be authentic,

yeah, and

get the two aligned, but that requires a level of

self awareness,

yes.

So we teach heart centered wisdom, and then heart

centered communication for both listening and speaking from a

heart centered place. Those are the first two skills,

recognizing that the way people behave is based on their

framework of these behavior, behavior meaning making, story

making, and behavior patterns. That was talking about earlier,

we call that collection of all of that our context. A context

like our internal operating system, event happens, we

respond. Businesses are the same way, organizations they develop

a collective context, and people within that organization respond

a certain way to customers, to suppliers, to each other, right.

So one of the things leaders need to do is learn how to

reframe the context, so the context that drives behaviors

are driving the behaviors that create the results that makes

sense, right?

Yeah, so that makes me think of, like, a

company's not mission, but you know, their rules, or, you know,

yeah, it's the, the unstated rules systems, the

culture,

yes, the culture, right?

You know, all of those things are really a result of

the context, the narratives we hold, the stories we believe,

and the behaviors associated with it. So, the third skill a

leader needs is to know how to reframe the collective context.

Okay,

right. And then the other two skills we call

improvisation mindset and balancing opposites, which allow

us to deal with the uncertainty of life. I mean, light

pivoting,

there's no script, right? There's no, there's no

being able to act on the spot and do the right

thing, so to

speak. Know how to, and again, that requires knowing how

to read the energy, also knowing when I'm resisting what truly

is, because it just doesn't fit, so you know we go into denial

and rebellion. Yes,

so when you're talking to business leaders and

you're talking about reading the energy in this business context,

that's very could sound very woo woo, and right, what are you

talking about, Norman? But how is that, especially coming from

somebody who's a mature business person who's been in the

business world for a long time? So, how do you get buy-in for

that?

Well, it's.. I think it's because of the way I

explain it, just like, yeah, it's like it's not, woo woo,

you're not going off,

and of course I know that, right? I'm just

saying that I'm just..

oh, it's a great question. In the way I address

this, simply is like I explained just a few minutes ago. Look,

you have to make critical decisions.

Yes,

you can make decisions with just your intellect, or you

can make decisions with your intellect and your intuition,

you choose. If you make a better decision, I'll guarantee it. If

you use both, if you can. Then, when the army, they train

special operations, the Green Berets, and so forth, on what

they call situational awareness.

Okay,

there's nothing logical about it. You just, you tune

your body to pick up the signals in the environment that allow

you to make better decisions. When I was at HP, they taught us

a thing called management by wandering around.

I love it.

Yeah, and the idea of it was, if you pay attention to

the situation, the signals coming from the body language of

the organization, if you will, the way people are interacting,

whether they're smiling or not smiling, the energy field you're

picking up, and you literally do, and we explain all that in

our training, so it really grounds it, and it doesn't, it's

not woo woo meditation or

I. Understand, I was just, you know, playing the

devil's advocate.

No, that's great. And it's, and so it's a grounded way

to view some really important information for those leaders

who think it's well, God bless them, let them

know, not your people, right? Yeah, exactly.

They'll catch on on eventually.

Yeah, exactly. So, is it usually the, the

leader that the CEO, the president, whatever, that comes

to you because they're saying that you know their company

isn't functioning the way they wanted to.

Yeah, mostly it's the CEO that's that those are the

people I want to attract, obviously, mostly because you

know, there's an old saying from when I was in on boards of

directors, it's about setting the tone at the top,

right? Exactly, I'm just gonna say, because if

they have to buy in for it to work,

yeah, they're the ones that set the tone for the

organization, and look at the word that has been used for

decades now, setting the tone at the top, that's a musical note.

They then said set the set the five instructions for the

organizations set the tone from the

top. Yeah,

unconsciously, that's why I'm able to explain it to

leaders. Unconsciously, we sort of know it's true. I just tap

into what they already know is true. So that's it's important

for the leader to buy in, and I usually work with not only the

leader, the whole executive team, because they have to be

able to do it together. And there have been times where I've

had to work with leaders with the uncomfortable transition

where they recognize they want the organization to transform

the paradigm, but there are a few people who are resisting

it, right,

and there's nothing wrong with that, but you have

to, you have to address that, you have to choose at some point

which way you want to go,

right, so I'm curious, does, does it, does it

feel different? Does it run differently when you have a

female at the top versus a man at the top, male at the top?

You don't

have to answer that if you don't want to, but I just am curious.

No, I know it's not. It's not gender specific. It

really is, and it's more, it's more the orientation of the

leaders. I'm actually finding more men being curious about it,

because I think most men in the 50s, late 40s to early 60s, are

already beginning to question whether the way they've been

raised to be leaders are the right ways.

Okay,

so I'm finding a really interesting receptivity.

Although the CEO in the book, leading the living organization,

is Catherine, so it's

on purpose. Yes,

I don't know if it was on purpose. It just sort of..

when I write, and the second book was written with my wife,

Jane.

Oh, cool.

The characters define themselves for me.

Okay,

I don't.. I don't consciously think about.. they

just sort of show up like, oh, we need a CFO. Oh, I think he's

Nick, CEO, that's Catherine. I

love it. I love

it. They just show up,

so that I'm going off script now, and just going

sideways to stay. Do you read a lot, and do you read a lot of

fiction?

I read a lot of fiction.

You do, what's your genre?

Mystery,

okay,

spy novels, slight fantasy.

Oh, really? Okay, I hate fantasy. I just can't get

into that.

Okay, well, it depends on certain kinds of fantasy, not

all of them, like Harry Potter, is a typical, that's the kind of

Lord of the Rings, things like that, magic and dragons, and

okay, cool, that's cool, and I know you, you

have grandchildren, do you get to read to

them? I do periodically. They're still very

young, so obviously the books. The time I remember when Harry

Potter came out, my daughter at the time was about 1011, sure,

and we had a ritual, we read through all, I think, five, five

of the seven books, five. Anyway, we, we would read a

chapter or two a night.

That's wonderful.

I love taking on the voices, and

yes, yes, yes. That's so funny, you said that,

because I just had this conversation with my daughter

and. Granddaughter, the other day, because she's six and a

half, but she really doesn't like to read. She'll go to the

library and get books and stuff, but she tells me that she

doesn't like reading, and of course, being a former teacher,

it kills me, because all I want to do is read to her, and I also

love reading aloud. And I said, you know, I'd love to start

reading this book to you, Amara. I read it to your mommy when she

was little, and it's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Beautiful book.

And the thing about that book that's so

brilliant is that at the end of every chapter you leave the

child holding, like, oh, I want the next chapter. No, we gotta

go to sleep and do it tomorrow, because, or in class, I would do

it, and do it, you know, a day. Please read another chapter.

Please read another chapter, because it leaves you hanging at

the end of every chapter. And I don't want her to see the movie,

I want her to read the book, because it's such an amazing

experience. So she's not ready, though. But I said, "Well, I've

got the book here, whenever we're ready, I'll read it to

you. Yeah, it's just so fun, anyway. That was just a

diversion that I

need

to take. Thank you, thank you. So, if there was

one shift that a leader could make today to strengthen

relationships and improve results with their organization,

what would you suggest?

I would suggest to start at the starting point,

learn how to tap into the music, listening to the music, learn

the art and skill of heart centering, practice it, and pay

attention to not only what's being said, but what the music

is that's coming across all the energy, if you want to use that,

what's really being communicated to you in the more you practice

that, the easier it gets, and the more intuitive you become,

and the more effective you become.

So to me, that's that's observation skills, it's

listening skills, and it's and being curious and asking the

right questions.

Curiosity is one of the attributes of the heart center,

right? You're open, you're curious, and you're discovering,

and you're exploring, you're not framing, fixing, solving,

correcting

exactly,

and that creates a different quality of

relationship. You know, there's a lot of talk in business today

about psychological safety, and I conclude that, and I've read a

lot of books about how to create psychological safety, and I've

concluded you can't do it that way. Psychological safety is an

experience of I am safe to be who I am in this environment,

and you can't do it by any mechanistic approach. You've got

to be truly coming from the heart with a sense of love and

caring for the person. They have to feel that, not just hear it.

And the only way to do that is to learn the skill of

heart-centered communication.

So that makes me think of the situations that you

hear, like years ago, I used to teach when I was doing corporate

training, I used to teach customer service skills and

telephone courtesy skills, because I worked for the

telephone company as a trainer, an external trainer, and I

remember people in big organizations and government

situations where you know they were taught that if somebody

started, for example, swearing at them on the phone, they

didn't have to take it, you know, they were give them a

warning and then they could hang up, which I can understand, but

what I started to notice, and I've heard it even today, when

people say, you know, they get very defensive on the phone when

they get someone who is out of control or is very angry or

whatever, but sometimes they, they're not quite as angry as

they need to be for this person on the other end to treat them

kind of rudely and say, you know, you'll have to change your

tone, mr. Customer, or I'm going to have to hang up rather than

looking for that empathy of trying to help them, so that

that mentality or that rule has come from above and they get

very.. I don't know what it is. It's like it's a.. it's kind of

like.. I don't know, I don't want to say what I'm thinking,

but because it feels judgmental. But to me, it just doesn't seem

like the right approach.

Well, it. it's like everything else we talked about.

It's that machine paradigm mindset, right? It's about it's

giving instructions to the machine on how the machine

should operate.

Yeah, there's no heart center in that at all.

No, no judgment about it. It's just the way it is. But

the byproduct is no empathy, no caring, and so, yeah, that's

what I've set out to make people aware, to break the veil of the

illusion that the paradigm we live in is the right one to see,

make it visible what the limitations of it are. It's not

that it's bad, it just has serious limitations, especially

for today's world. And so we've got to expand it, we've got to

add on to it, and that's what the Living Organization

framework is.

Okay. One last question. One last question on

this. And so, with the leaders that you're seeing, the

up-and-coming leaders, the younger generations, you know,

the 40 year olds, and, and you know, 40 to 50 year olds, a lot

of them, maybe even younger, if you experience those, those

young leaders, they've grown up with their phone in their face,

so their social skills aren't that great in some cases. Do you

think that they're better if they're, they see the path of

leadership, they know it has to be different, or is it harder to

train those people

well? I haven't had a lot of people like that, but you

know, they've learned social skills, they just learned it

through a different medium,

really. Okay,

okay. I mean, think about it. They learn how to

socialize on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that.

It's just a different style of socializing, and they pick up

different social cues. Does it transfer into leadership and

business? No, but it does give them an appreciation for people

they're leading who grew up in that era. I remember.

Okay,

you know, when, when I, when I started with Hewlett

Packard, I remember saying to some of my peers, my friends at

the time, you know, upper management, that's just as it

understands this computer. We grew up with computers, right?

Yeah.

20 years later, my son, who was growing up in the

internet world, started to be a coach to see internet CEOs.

Okay,

I said to him, you know, Josh, you're just getting

out of school. What do you know about coaching CEOs? He said,

what do you mean? I grew up with the internet, I know more about

the internet than you ever will. It's kind of a generational

thing, and that was a really good lesson for me, because

every generation thinks the previous generation are

Luddites, and we don't understand what's really going

on. It's just a.. it's just for me. It's a recognition that

we're going through generational transitions, and life for my

parents was not the same life I grew up in. Life for my son and

daughters is not the same world I grew up in. And

get with the program, you got to stay, stay

connected and stay alert.

The needs of people haven't changed, they won't

change, and you know the fact that we're learning how to

automate so much of business these days, which we were

talking about before we went online. Yeah,

exactly right. It's only going to heighten the

importance of the human aspect of business,

that's true.

Yeah, no, I mean we have so automated our lives that

so many people are missing that human contact, you know, whether

it be replacing tellers with ATM machine or replacing

receptionists with these, push one if you want this, push too,

if you want that.

Yeah, it's so true. Wow, there's so much in

that, and I'm excited for your new book to come out, which is

going

to be

September,

September,

September. Yeah, so we'll have to have you back

when we talk about the new book, and I'm excited for that. So,

thank you for your insights, and it's also, it's a good reminder

that results don't just come from plans and processes, but

from people and the relationships between them. I'm

going to take forward, listen to the music, and the, and the, the

words as well. Listen to the music when we start paying

attention to how we connect, communicate, and create meaning

together. Everything begins to shift. So, to my audience, thank

you for listening. And, as always, remember that

relationships do rule in business. Oops.