215: New Ai Answers Law Firm’s Phones - and More with Reflekt Legal Founders Jacob and Abraham Adberstein

So you got this great phone answering product. It does a bunch of other things, but first and foremost, who's this for? What firms should use this product? Should they use it during the day? Should they only use it after hours? What do you guys recommend?

Yeah. So we work across practice areas. The vision going back to what we talked about in the beginning about being an employee, is that it's supposed to be an extension of the firm. Meaning, if you want to update the questions, if you want to work differently, route things this way, that way, you want to modify, you want to customize to your firm. We can do that, which then allows us to operate in personal injury, immigration, family, criminal, and the way we architected our platform internally, it's very easy for us to then customize it. In terms of operation hours and

everything, obviously a lot of the the firms, it's for them, it's a big jump to or a big leap to be like, hey, you know, I'm gonna let go, I'm gonna move my answering from being humans to AI, it's it's a bit of a scary move, and they usually like to start with that after hours and overflows so they can test the waters.

Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of Internet Marketing for Law Firms podcast, featuring the latest strategies and techniques to drive traffic to your website and convert that traffic into clients. Now, here's the founder and CEO of 10 Golden Rules, Jay Berkowitz.

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time you're listening to this live podcast or recorded podcast. Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules Growth Strategies for Law Firms podcast. My name is Jay Berkowitz, and we got some real tech bros, like legit tech bros, today who have an amazing AI startup that's killing it for a bunch of law firms, and we're going to meet the guys in two seconds, after a very short commercial for my company, 10 Golden Rules, and this commercial is pretty simple. Do you know how many searches there actually are done by your prospects in

your market, and how many calls and cases your competitors are getting, and what share of the pie you have? We've got a great analytics tool that can show you how many calls are available, how many cases are available in your market, and what piece of the pie you guys are getting. So reach out to me at 10 Golden Rules. Just hit our chat bot or fill out a form. jay@tengoldenruals.com is my email. Love to show you how you're doing in the market and what percentage of those opportunities you're getting versus your top competitors. Anyways, guys, welcome to Jacob and Abraham Adberstein, real life

legitimate tech bros because they're bros, they're brothers, and they've developed a great tech startup. Guys, welcome to the 10 Golden Rules podcast.

Thank you for having us. I do like the the whole tech bros thing. We it came up in a in a conference where we spoke, and we just walked up. Then they were like, "Hey, we're tech bros. So since then, we we like it when people say that. We actually, if

everyone doesn't know why that's funny, it's because that's what they call startup founders in Silicon Valley is young tech bros. But these guys are actually brothers. So guys, like, tell us your story. They were recommended to me by two amazing, super high-profile, super successful attorneys who love the product. But first of all, tell us your journey. Tell us how you got to developing a startup, and then tell us a little bit about the product.

So, the the journey is Abraham and I originally from Mexico City, came to the U.S. chasing the traditional American dream. I went and studied aerospace and ended up working at NASA. Abraham, he was a hacker. He can say more about he what he was doing.

Yeah, I was like a part of a security company that was doing red teams, so we had to go only the CTO and CEOs of like tech companies or just big companies would know about it, and we just infiltrate and try to capture the crown jewels of the company: code, like passwords, networks, IoT devices. And from then afterwards, I moved to Clover. I was part of the Clougher's bot management team and worked directly on all the bot detection systems, capture systems, and anytime you go to a website that says protected by Cloudflare, there's probably something written there

behind me that does

Flare,

Cloudflare, yeah,

yeah, yeah, and I guess they call it ethical hacking, right? Like ethical

hacking, yes.

When you have an important website or database, you hire companies that are ethical hackers and they they literally try and hack in like the bad guys, but if they get in, you find the vulnerabilities and then you fix them. Exactly.

Yep. That's awesome. Yep. That that's what everyone's doing. But um, yeah. I mean, Abraham and I always knew that we wanted to do startups and and work together and. And building a company of sorts, yeah. So essentially, like Abraham and I, for a while since we were kids, we knew we wanted to work together, building companies, businesses together. We always tinker tinkered with ideas and and you know little business stuff on the side, you know, while I was in college, and then later on while we were working in our own jobs. But the thing that we always hit the wall with was

being engineers and being having limited time. It was very hard to scale up and fight sometimes the the bigger companies already established within those sectors. So we were like, you know what? Let's fix that. You know, let let's build an AI that can actually be our third brother, right? Our our core team that can scale with us. It's always been us, right, against the world. But we can be us against the world if we if we build the right tools. So we quit our jobs with no real product, no customers, no nothing. I I was working at NASA at the time, and I moved back to Austin to move in with

Abraham, so we were back in the same apartment together, and we just started working on it. the The idea was, and is, you know, we want to build an AI employee that can help the little guy fight the top guys, right? How does a small business get a big leverage to go and compete and punch up to the big guys, and at first the the the beginning was like very nebulous, but the core idea that we wanted to explore was the psychology of conversation between people and AI, meaning how is it that humans conversate? How is the humans talk? What builds trust? What builds all of this? Such that if

we manage to put that into an AI, then we essentially have a salesperson, right? And if you have a strong salesperson, you you got a fighting chance. So essentially, we grabbed Abraham's background, you know, in social engineering, hacking, all of that, you know, sweet stuff, and you know some of my my experience in you know building systems that can't fail, you know that that was the whole thing about NASA. You, the so some accident happens, there's going to be very big consequences, and together we architected and built what we call our reasoning engine, that powers the more nuanced level

conversations for an AI, so jump that forward. Now we use this engine to power reception and intake for firms across practice areas, where beyond just the small reception side of hey, what's your name and taking a message, it's an AI that's conversational through voice, email, SMS can actually engage in depth, no one's conversation that gets the person from the first touch point all the way until they're signed, enabling the small firms to punch up and and and pack the power of a big firm.

And and in addition, like by having this engine, like we really push the ability of an assistant or an AI to like really interact with clients in you know like high stake situations like personal injury or immigration matters, it's interesting because for example from the social social engineering background that we that we had most of like sophisticated cyber attacks or engagements are straight based on human psychology. So when an AI interacts with a person, if you're able to unlock the right phrasing, the right tone, the right voice, you can actually move the

conversation forward so much more than anyone else,

but but with the goal to build trust, like that. That has always been the key. Like the best service that will get the best outcome that will get a firm forward is the manner in which to build trust with your clients, and that was everything that we try to do. Like, how do you engage in a conversation and help build trust and help the person feel like, hey, this person I'm calling, or this business, or this entity I'm calling, will take care of me, right?

And one example of those things is actual acknowledging what the person wants to, right? Straight up, and that's actually a foundation of sales, right? If you're trying to talk to someone or sell something, if the first mistake that you can do is not listen to the other side and just try to pitch what you want to sell. But instead, if you actually acknowledge what the other side wants and maybe help them initially, they will be more responsive to actually interact with you and move forward in the conversation.

All right. So you guys built AI phone answering. We I think we all know it's coming, or I know it's coming, because I've seen AI and I've seen computer stuff where you know it's it's not as good as the humans, not as good as the humans, not as good as the humans. Then it's better than the humans. I I don't know if you you guys can validate this stat I've been sharing with people, but I think Siri, the Apple Voice Intelligence. Transcribes at like 94% accuracy, and the best human transcriber transcribes at 92.5% accuracy. Siri's biggest problem is if she can't hear clearly.

Well, guess what? Your voice call folks' biggest problem is if they can't hear clearly. Also, so I just feel like, and I've explained this to people for a long time. I've been presenting on AI since 2018. I wrote my first presentation, and I've been explaining to people that the computers will get better than the humans, more reliable, because you can train them. They don't have a bad day. Their kids not screaming in the background. Their kids not sick, and they're not new employees. So if you continually train it and give it the best practices of the best employee, eventually the AI is going

to be as good as your best employee, and never have a bad day. So on average, it's going to be way better. Is that what you guys feel like where we're at now.

Yeah, I mean it's funny because sometimes, like you know, we hear some conversations on the phone that myself. I'm like, what did they say, right? Like I, I like maybe my maybe my hearing wasn't great and I don't understand. And the AI does a much better job a lot of times piecing that information together and being like, oh, they meant this, and it's like oh yeah that is what they meant. I would say

the technology is here. Yeah, the techno, the voice models and the ability to just like actually transcribe has increased significantly. For even ourselves as a normal like you were saying, like we speak Spanish, but there's so many different dialects or like like wordings in Spanish, but the AI is able to pick them up. Yeah, problem. Like if I speak to a Cuban or Colombian, there's. I

might struggle with some words. Yeah, I

struggle with some words, but AI understands it. And even in loud environments, in noisy bad signal plays, the the models are really good nowadays. It's just excavating.

Yeah, I think the reality is we're all getting amazed by what AI can do when you write a good prompt in ChatGPT or Perplexity or any of the tools now, like it comes back and it it actually thinks through 14 things I didn't even think to ask it. Yeah. So look, everyone's probably thinking, okay, these guys got voice AI. The voice AI is normally, you know, it doesn't sound that real. I can tell it's a computer. I would never use it. I wouldn't like it myself. But I think we got to do a demo because we got to see. Okay, does this product really work? So we're going to try a

simple demo here. Hopefully, the audio works out okay. If it doesn't, obviously, you guys won't even know we did this demo. How does it work? What do I call the number, or you guys just set it up for me?

Yeah, Abraham's gonna give you a phone number. Essentially, take out your phone, put it on speaker. I think it's gonna be a motor vehicle demo, Abraham.

Yeah, it's gonna be like a collision, big team. You just call it, pretend you had an accident, and see where he goes.

Okay, great.

News call, maybe monitor and recording. What quality is there? Good afternoon. This is Alex with AMD Law. How can I help you?

I was in a car accident, and I think I need to hire a

lawyer. All right. We help with car accidents. You called the right firm. We can help. May I have your full name?

Jay Berkowitz.

Thanks, Jay Berkowitz. I need to gather some general contact information and then some details about the accident, and then I can tell you how we can help. Does that sound okay?

Yes.

Perfect. Troy, can you tell me what happened in the accident?

I was rear-ended by a FedEx truck.

Okay, thanks for sharing that. Were you injured in the accident, or did you get any medical attention after the crash?

I was injured, and I am seeing the chiropractor.

Okay, I'll note that you are seeing a chiropractor. Just to confirm, you were not at fault for this accident, right?

I was rear-ended. I was stopped at a light. Not my fault.

Makes sense. Being rear-ended at a light usually means you are not at fault. Do you know if the FedEx driver or their company has insurance information available?

Yes. I think this is a great demo, and I'm going to wrap it up now. But thanks for your help. Got it. I'm glad it was helpful. All right, guys. I think that was pretty good. I don't know if anyone wants to listen to me doing a fake call, but clearly the AI was very responsive, asked good questions, a teeny bit of latency. You guys mentioned that, but you also mentioned that if normally the the person on the phone is typing, and so there's there's a lot of times there's a lot of latency with real people.

Yeah, it's interesting because we we do we do intake audits for firms that we meet in the conferences and everything, and it's like. Like a little undercover boss experience that we go and test their intakes, and you know we always a lot of times like you mentioned right now. Hey, there's a little bit of latency. It's not obvious that humans have it too, but when you call, like a lot of times, you know I use a random name. I don't know Hugo Sanchez, right? And then I'm like, oh, okay, one second, and you hear it clicking, and I'm there for like two, three seconds at a time,

and then they're like, "Oh, and what's your email? And I give you my email, and then another four, 510, seconds, and I'm just sitting there. And you know, the yes, there is waiting time that people take the

email, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So the the other thing is actually we can increase the speed, like you heard, but with the data that we have collected, we realize that the faster you make the AI talk, actually people get a little bit annoyed because they get they might get interrupted.

There's higher incidence of interruptions, and people get way more triggered and annoyed if they get interrupted as they're speaking, versus because like what we were talking about earlier, that AI is faster than processing than a person, right? So AI, okay, I finished listening to what you're saying. I'm ready to go.

I can hit with the next question. Yeah,

yeah, but that's it's not. Sometimes someone's going to say a little something after, and they get annoyed.

Great. So you got this great phone answering product. It does a bunch of other things, but first and foremost, who's this for? What firms should use this product? Should they use it during the day? Should they only use it after hours? What do you guys recommend?

Yeah, so we work across practice areas. The vision going back to what we talked about in the beginning about being an employee is that it's supposed to be an extension of the firm, meaning if you want to update the questions, if you want to work differently, route things this way, that way, you want to modify, you want to customize to your firm, we can do that, which then allows us to operate in personal injury, immigration, family, criminal, and the way we architected our platform internally. It's very easy for us to then customize it. In terms of operation hours and

everything, obviously a lot of the the firms, it's for them, it's a big jump to or big leap to be like, hey, you know, I'm gonna let go, I'm gonna move my answering from being humans to AI. It's it's a bit of a scary move, and they usually like to start with that after hours and overflow, so they can test the waters. But for us, because we wanted to be the the employee that handles and manages the department, we want them to take it 24 hours, 24/7. And what we've seen with our clients is that usually after two to three weeks of running after hours and overflow, they're like, oh man, this is

legit, and they move to 24/7, and that's when you really start seeing a lot of the extra benefits of the AI. So much visibility into your operations, so much more streamlining, and you know benefits in terms of the conversions and the experience with people when you go 24/7.

And the cool thing, for example, when you do the after hours overflow, you usually see more some cases, right? Like more cases because you were not covering them those time. But when they go the full time, they actually most many law firms realize that they were actually losing a lot way more calls in the day because they're just on the phone missing. So what happens is that a law firm that has I don't know 100 calls a day actually might have 200 calls a day because an AI can actually handle concurrent calls pretty much infinitely right and if you just have a staff of

five people that's as many calls you can handle at the same moment and if they're on on on their desk they're available they're not talking to anyone

fantastic and what are some of the other things that the software can do for firms?

Yeah, I mean, in terms of the the calls, you know, we can route the the conversation depending on if it's depending on the caller, depending on the reason, case updates. We have firms where the AI signing retainers or getting retainers signed, collecting payments. It's a number of things. It's it's an employee, right? The the it adapts to how firms are are currently running their intake process and moving from there. But on top of that, it's the front line of the firm, meaning it starts collecting all sorts of data in terms of sources and sorts of in sort of conversions,

and firms which historically have have had very fragmented systems start getting a really neat picture on how their intake department's working and how that is working in combination with their marketing department, right? Maybe before you didn't realize that hey, these lead source that we were paying X amount of dollars is not actually bringing leads that are worth it, right? Because before you would have had to then spend the time to go in and and do a a full report on on everything, whereas the AI you can kill it your your lead sources and you can immediately start getting somewhat of

a picture of hey you know this company we're paying X dollars we got zero cases this month.

Awesome. So, what's next? What What are some of the future developments you're working on?

Yeah, you wanna you wanna take this one, Abraham.

Well, we we just we are pushing the assist our AI employees to take over more tasks, right? So, right now, for example, you you can do full reception and also a lot of outbound like intake, like we were mentioning, but there's still a lot of like minutia work that you have to do. Maybe set up claims, call insurance, collecting documents. So we're working together with the firms that, from their systems, they're able to like basically use the assistant through it and do more work than they can than right now. Just let's say handling a phone call is so the more advanced

like law firms that we're working with are we're slowly like integrating more their the work that the intake team has to do, and that doesn't have and that doesn't mean replacing the intake team. It actually just removes the time that is very time consuming being in a phone call for like or having to submit paperwork or confirms records, it's a lot of work. Intech teams hate doing it, so we help them with that, pair them with the assistant, and they actually end up processing double, triple more cases. So that's the exciting part where we see like we're still pushing more, and we want to

change the paradigm right now. Like instead of law firms thinking, hey, let's get some CMS, some CRM, some soft like a software. Like first thing, I will get an AI employee, and then I'm gonna get this extra additional like softwares, and that's the vision, right? That law firm lawyers need to think about their staff, AI staff, and then they think about how do they connect it to all their tech stack,

and I also understand you had some breaking news today. You guys just got a great new listing.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, we're always integrated. We're integrated to a lot of case management systems and CRM. So today we got like finally listed in the Clio's like app listing as part of our partnership with them, Clio, right? So that's exciting for us because we think we bring a lot of value to these existing systems that a lot of lawyers work with. We don't mean to replace it. We we have a good synergy on what we're doing, and it's just it's a win-win situation for everyone.

You guys are a rocket scientist and a hacker, and you developed an AI company that's getting out of beta and and getting into the marketplace. You're you're working with somewhere around 100 firms, right?

Yeah, we're we're working currently with close to 50 firms now.

50 firms. Yeah. So you're you're way out of out of alpha and beta, and you're you're in the marketplace. I know my clients are very happy with it. Who are working with it? So, next question is: What advice do you have for other tech bros out there who are doing startups? Like, how did you guys get from alpha to beta to real real world?

Yeah, I mean, I think when you're in the weeds of it, the first thing that happens is like it happens in many industries, is the noise. It's easy to get sucked into the noise and be like, "Oh, they're doing this or they're doing that. It costs not almost nothing to make a post about being able to do something versus actually being able to do it. But from an outsider's perspective, they're indistinguishable. Meaning, if someone puts up a website and says, "Hey, we can do X, Y, or Z. That you have to like also ingrain yourself. Like it's not necessarily true that

they can do it. For us, we wanted to focus. I mean, we focused on a long time on making sure that AI was to the level that the firms really need, and that's a bit more of a doctrine I learned from my experience, you know, there's no room for for the eyes to not perform to the level it needs to. You you miss a case, you know, they're a big case. They're they're gonna not want to keep working with you. And so the advice I would give other entrepreneurs and tech bros and people building software is the flashy stuff like the fundraising and the big partnerships and stuff will come. I think the

most important part is: is the product good at scale? You know, can you build something that it's not just enough to be able to solve a problem a little bit? Is like can you build it in such a way that the stakes, especially in legal, you know, you can manage as you as as you grow, and that's what we we focus, and it's paying off. You know, just being able to build with the best quality possible.

And if a law firm hasn't really gotten into much AI, what advice you would give them about dipping their toe in the water and getting started?

I guess I would give them similar advice to to the other founder one, meaning there's a lot of noise out there. There's just because you see a website or someone tells you, "Hey, we can do this. You can do that. Do what you did today, right? Like put it to the test, right? Like put put it on the spot. Really ask for measurable results if you're going to engage with them. Engage. There's. With AI, you can do a lot of things. Start with something small where you can see attract the the value as easy as possible. I know there could be you might be going into this company and

they can do five things. Start with one of those. Really see if if it really is bringing value to you. If you really can measure the results, and if that's good, then you can at the second, third, fourth, 15. Before you know it, you have 10 things, but you've gone through a journey of vetting and making sure that results are there because

yeah,

AI is flashy. It's just a matter of

and so a little example.

So

an example of that, like for example, if a lot of there's other like voice companies, like chatbots that they're over there that just doing like a little bit of answering everything, but when they show you a demo, they tend to show it to you on the computer. the The latency and optimizations on a browser compared to telephony are way substantial. So the voice will always sound 10x more beautiful on a browser than actually on a phone call. But until you actually until your hard try things, and this is not only to voice. I mean, it could be also like drafting

with AI or AI-powered CRMs. They're also trying to to be like AI platforms. And what Jacob was saying is like it's very easy to do some magic tricks, but running in production is hard, right? So just make sure to really test and throw curveballs, edge cases, and see like see if it's the real deal.

So I heard a podcast interview with another Texas-based tech broke today, and it was Elon Musk. So you guys are in keeping nice company, and the interviewer asked him, "Where does he think AI is going to be in five years? And he said that it's going to have super intelligence, way more intelligence than humans. Where do you guys see AI in in five years? Maybe more of a product based answer. Yeah, I think

it goes back to where we're pushing the vision, and it's stop seeing AI as a sir as a tool, perhaps. It's like, oh, the way, like instead of putting it in the category of like a CRM or something like that, like, hey, I'm buying this software, I'm buying this AI, and seeing it more in light of I am implementing a team member, I am implementing, I'm staffing my company with X, Y, and Z AI, and seeing it more of a shift from just a software service to labor, right? Like you are hiring someone, and the expectations of that-how would it's much different to work with a software

than to work with with labor, work with someone. I think we're at the beginning of that, especially with us as a company. We're trying to push that. I think as time goes on, more and more of that, it's it's it's going to to happen. Companies are going to have departments and full systems completely staffed and running with employees that are AI based.

Yeah, that's great advice, and I think it's a good mindset for people.

Yeah,

stop thinking of AI as a tool. Start thinking of it as as an employee, and give it a job scope, job task.

Yeah, and also it's how you interact with it.

Rails, yeah.

It's how you interact with it because, like, think about like a human employee. They get asked a question the first time you hire them. They might not know exactly what to answer, right? But you tell them like, hey, they come up to you and like, hey, this client asked me this. I don't know what to say, right? You tell them, right? Like, hey, next time it happens, you do this, and you know, hopefully they're a good employee. And by next time it happens, they answer the way you want it, right? Yeah, it's pretty much the same, right? It's context and it's rules you're giving

it, right? The first time they might not know exactly what it might be a brand new scenario, and they might not handle it the way you and your specific company or business you want to handle it, but it'll have the ability that you can customize it. And then, like you mentioned earlier, like it'll be like your employee that you're having for a long time. It keeps you know improving,

and you can also see that the tendency in how you work with software. I mean, I'm sure you've seen yourself, Jay. Like you don't, we are less going to check our emails manually or log into different dashboards to do things. You're now, for example, as an engineer, you're just coding in one place and talking to AI. As an administration, you connect MCPs or different applications and you just talk to it and you get results. So a lot of these kind of like 2000 and early early 2000 like software start like shifting from visual UI to just verbal communication routine. Yeah,

it starts regressing back to a terminal if you think about it or a or a text right. You're you're moving UI.

That's great. Well, guys, this was fascinating and best of luck. And we're gonna keep working together. And we're at the time of the podcast when I asked the quick one-liners. Yeah, I realized that you guys have some latency built in, just like AI, because when I ask you a question, you don't know which bro is going to answer. So take all these hard

questions. I answer like the fun.

Yeah. All right. Well, you want the fun question. Okay. So then I'll ask Jacob. Tell me about any personal productivity tools or apps or techniques you have.

Well, I mean, the app first and foremost that I use is Cloud CoWork, which is the ability that it's easy to connect with all my other tools, like my email and a lot of things. It's very easy to query data and information. All of my meetings get sent to cowork, and I can at any point be like, "Hey, what did I tell Jay about this? And it's it just goes and tells you, "Oh, you tell this to Jay. Perfect. I don't even have to read a summary. It's more proactive or it's more responsive, conversational. So that'll be that. That's top. That's

awesome. So you use a call recorder, and then it's automatically sent to Claude Cover. Yeah, because

AI has the ability basically to look at all the meetings, index them, so you can answer any question you have. So you essentially don't have to pay attention in a meeting anymore. Just ask it. Hey, what do I need to do after a meeting? Yeah, because

we record our meetings with Fathom AI, but then I have to figure out the guy's email and put it in Fathom and search, and sometimes it's not perfect. And so, how do you automate putting the recording into Cloud?

You can co-working in the connectors. Essentially, I connected it to my recorder that is already compatible. I use TLDV, and essentially, at the moment a meeting is done, it's accessible now to my cowork. So I just ask it, "Hey, today I I had a meeting with Jay. What what did I tell? What what tools did I tell him to use? And it'll it'll it'll pull it up. Yeah,

I love it, Abram. Do you have another personal productivity hack to share?

I mean, just to expand on that. I would just connect a lot of applications. So, for example, my email is connected to that. The TLDB is connected to that. CRM, CMS, and notes. So now that's my center of operations. I rarely have to jump between different softwares to do things. As an engineer, there's definitely a whole more a

whole different world of tools that he uses. Different

world of tools you can use. Yeah,

that's great. Next question is: Do you guys have a personal wellness or fitness routine? Why don't you go first, Dave, bro?

Well, definitely the gym. We had to, as a startup, and like having to jump between multiple hats. We need like at least daily gym sessions to keep the sanity and the body healthy, but we also enjoy. We also like to enjoy life and have like good dinners, happy hours. Get together as a team every day. Actually, the whole team usually take a walk around. Just keep yourself physical and active and happy. You know.

Great. Maybe Jacob can go first. Best business books.

Oh man, I was looking forward to the the wellness question. Oh no. Okay, best business books. I know it sounds silly, but the one that I mean I read it at young age. That I it just changed the way I thought as from as a teenager was to reach that poor dad. I know it's like a one that everyone thinks is extremely basic or you know cliche, but as a teenager with no no no clue on on life, you know it was like it was it was a good starting point framework. That no, that's great if you

get it that young in life. Well, go ahead. What's your wellness routine? Because Abraham answered as a we. So

yeah, yeah. So I mean, every every day we obviously I go to the gym, but the most the most important part we do is the team after work 7p.m. We play ping pong. You know, a little team building. You know, decompress a lot of things happening in the day. We we make sure we take time as a team to just play some ping pong. So we I really really get we've been we've been getting into it.

So you guys are old school. You're physically in an office with with the other tech bros.

Yeah, we we like we like to be in person. We we're we're in the unit. You know, we have lunch together, fight together, have fun together.

Yeah,

no, that's great. I miss that. There's certainly pros and cons of remote, right? And next question: If you're, you know, maybe 630 and ping pong hasn't started, and you finished a big project, you're sitting there looking at your phone, and either a blog or a podcast or a YouTube that you subscribe to comes in. What do you stop everything and and watch, read, or listen to? the

The first ones that come to mind is obviously the traditional tech bro podcast, like Diary of a CEO. It's one that we we tend. I know Abraham also listens to that one. I

like founders. It's also like in Spotify because it's a it's a guy that really does deep dive on the founders' mentalities from across the industries, but it's very interesting to understand the psychology of people operating there.

Cool, Abraham. I'll give you this one easy softball here. This

is gonna be hard for him.

If someone. Wants to refer to you guys. Who's the best firm or type of business to refer to you?

I mean, we. I guess there's different people who can refer to us from law firms can refer with us, and we offer very nice like discounts as well. But anyone, legal consultants, marketing agencies, anyone who's really interacting with like the law firms and understanding their systems, everyone is a good friend of ours that we can collaborate together. You know,

great. Last question, Jacob. Where do they get in touch with you?

Yeah, I mean you can reach out to us in in either LinkedIn or through our website. Also at my my email

reflectle AI with a K though

reflect R E F L E K L E C K

yeah

we we like with with with the K just the K yeah yeah links are in the

show notes guys this was fun thanks so much

no thank you appreciate it yeah this was fun.