Your People Are Not the Problem. Your Systems Are. | RR374

Hi everyone, and welcome to this week's episode

of Relationships Rule. I have a question for you: What does a

child surviving a pioneering heart surgery have to do with

building better organizations? Well, everything it turns out.

My guest today is Hannah Bauer, founder of Heartanomics

Enterprises and faculty member with the Maxwell Leadership

Team, Hannah has spent nearly three decades helping CEOs and

leadership teams get to the real root of why organizations

struggle, and it almost never has to do with people not

caring, which I would have thought it did. But there you

go. So basis for the conversation, it has to do with

systems that have lost their rhythm, and Hannah's story is

one of the most remarkable I've heard. And I think you're going

to walk away from this conversation seeing both

leadership and relationships in a completely new way. So welcome

to the show, Hannah. First of

all, oh my goodness! Thank you for so much

for having me, Janice. Honest pleasure, honor. I'm just super

excited to get to talk with you this morning.

Thank you, Hannah. Because you came to me

blindly, right? I got an a request from someone in your

organization, and I get them all the time. And I I kind of I

don't I don't know. They don't all reach me, you know. It's

like they're too formal, or they're too not. They haven't

done their homework, or whatever. Something said I

needed to talk to you, and so I was so glad that I did before

this conversation, so that we could get a little sense of each

other. And I'm really happy to have you on the show. So before

we get into your your work, I want to start with your story

because it's the as I said to you before we went on air, it's

the heart of everything. You were diagnosed as a child with a

serious heart condition and went through years of treatments that

didn't work, and eventually became well. I'll let you tell

the story. So, can you take us back to that time and what was

what life was like for you and your family during those years,

and what happened?

Yeah, well, my a lot of my younger years, my

family is the one that reminded me. Right, I mean, as a kid, I

was diagnosed at the age of four. So let's just say my

childhood, as far as memories go, it was a lot of memories of

things that I couldn't do. Yeah, you know, things that I had to

be watchful for, or things that I know I had to like stay behind

and just observe. So as far as my own recollection is that day

to day, I did learn to live that, and I think as a kid that

is something that we're usually not exposed to. At least with my

children, they're not usually the day to day. You know,

they're right, right. They're more like either moment to

moment, they think all these things, right? Like, there's no

concept of time. Well, that was not the the case with me. I had

very much a concept of time because of the again the

heartbeat. Something that we are not aware of was something I was

extremely aware of. It would be very painful, and sometimes I

would go into tachycardia. I would go into arrhythmia as

well. Arrhythmia meaning that the heart would go abnormal

rhythms. Tachycardia meaning that it would go super fast. So

I lived with that the uncertainty of when it would

happen. Like there was nothing that would forecast. Hey, if you

do this or if you bend this way or you know something happened

or stress or whatever. So there was no way as a kid for me to be

able to even plan for a normal birthday party or normal day of

school. There's normalcy. So as I as growing up, that was a lot

of my perspective. I learned to interact with my environment

really from the hospital bed and and really learning from even

the things that I I couldn't do, still be able to do. There was

still ambition enough in me as a kid, and I would have to thank

my my parents, my family that always believed in more for me.

That even in those circumstances, there was still

that tension of hey, I want to explore more. Survived two heart

attacks by the age of 10. Like I said, it was very. There was no

cure in sight. Didn't really know what caused it. What that

looked like for me was for from the age of 10 after the heart

attacks through the age of about 1415, and it was a fight for my

life. I had less than six months to live a diagnosis with no cure

or pathway in sight, and that's where a lot of my story comes in

as I grow older, being becoming a preteen, going through

interventions and surgeries that didn't work, including a heart

cath, including an open heart surgery. Eventually, that led to

an opportunity as I was waiting for a heart transplant to yeah

to have a never been done surgery. Now, what was

interesting about this is that a heart transplant at the time

would have given me about 10 more years, assuming that

everything went well, right? Assuming like the there's a

heart, and that with the heart would go along with my with my

systems, and from that point be able to go forward. But then

again, it's 10 years. Point it would be 22 years I would have

made it to, so this opportunity of the surgery, my doctor always

a visionary, thinking like he he recognized that I had a strong

heart. That's something that he always told me: you have a

strong muscle, you have a strong heart. It just had some

electrical things that didn't quite let it operate well. And

1992, they did this what they call a heart ablation, and it

was an innovative surgery at the time. I was actually one of the

the first kid, if not the first kid, and it was done in

conjunction with the Emory University Hospital at the time.

Eggston, yeah, Scottish Rite.

So it was well an experimental surgery that I didn't know the

impact of it until about 20 years afterwards, when I get a

call from the Children's Healthcare of Atlanta, and they

say like, "Hey, would you be open to celebrating 20 year

anniversary? We want to reconnect it with the doctor and

the admission team and go in there. And by the way, that's

when I found out that 3000 other kids had been saved from the

surgery, where I was the first recipient of here. So can I just

ask a quick question? There, so was it

because I've had a couple of friends who've had those

ablation surgeries that who've had heart issues as as older

adults, but was it was it not heard of before at all for

adults as well as children until that 1992? Okay, so it was

correct. That was the beginning of it.

So, from what I heard, and again, because this

is talk to my parents again, I'm 14, so they they did ask me in a

sense, you know, like, hey, this is what's going to happen at

this point. I had already gone through a lot of things. I lived

in the CCU, in a hospital, so they did ask. I did hear who

would be the? Who were the recipients before? And and they

had tried them on like 90 year olds, 80 something year olds.

You know that had had some heart disease, but they just had not

tried it yet on a young kid. And even and this is where a lot of

my methodology came in because this is where I really found

what innovation was. The technology was there, right? I

mean, like an ablation. What is an ablation? Is the burning

away. I mean, we've treated that even with bleeding, even in the

Civil War, right? They would literally catheterize the

catheterize, yeah, yeah. The bleeding would stop. It just had

not been used for heart. Okay. So that was the innovative part,

and that really not only inspired me once I learned what

that was. It's like you know, what is the many things that we

have where sometimes we think innovative has to be brand new,

never been done, like all these things, and really, it's just

even just using what you have, just using in a different way,

becomes innovative, and that was the solution for my heart.

So, Okay. At that at that age, as a teenager,

you're not sitting in a hospital bed building a leadership

philosophy. No. When did the meaning of what you had been

through actually catch up with you? And you know, when did the

light go on? What did it feel like when it when it did?

Well, I always wanted to be normal, right? Like

whatever was,

yeah.

I didn't know how to be well. Yeah. Once I had the

the surgery, and it's like they tested it because they would

always test every time with with even it was drugs or the open

heart. They knew right away by injecting me with adrenaline to

see if the heart would go into the abnormal rhythms. So when

the heart consistently wouldn't go into the abnormal rhythms,

and suddenly my doctor said, "Okay, go go do something new.

Go go do that part. I'm like, "Go dancing. Exactly. I I didn't

really know. Like right, it's like suddenly I had like this

this new way of life. At that point, I was already a freshman

in high school, and I mean, I I was always studious. I kept on

doing that, but let me just say that I think I was freaked out

about being well because I had become so cognizant of every

little thing. Like, oh my goodness, is this going to be me

being able to control this, or is this going to lead into my

next heart attack, right? Where I have to go back to the

hospital. So, I would say it would take about two years for

me after that to learn what well was, and now and then that is

something I even told my leaders. You know, sometimes we

we we go through the crisis and we go through what you know we

give it what it needs to be at the time, and we do have to get

acquainted what well is, and we have to know what well is. So

once I started being okay with being well, I wanted to do

something like, okay, well, what do I do? I don't really know

what to do. I lived in hospitals. I basically was

bubble boy, like the movie. You know, just like, what do I do? I

well, I do what only I knew to do, and that was going back to

the hospital and volunteering because those were the people

that really impacted me. Were the volunteers play games? They

were the ones that brought normalcy to me. They were the

ones you know if it was a card or if it's a board game or if

it's a craft room, whatever that was. So I started serving in

that way. You know my summers. Yeah, going back to and was then

going back to the local hospitals. I just found ways to

volunteer in the hospital because that to me was normal.

Like really, I wanted to do that for somebody else. And in one of

those times, I had the opportunity to serve in the high

school, and we had a speaker that talked about you know

leadership is service, and I'm like, wait, that's what I've

been doing. Serve, absolutely call it. They call volunteer

service. Does that mean I'm a leader? And I think that's a

that's honestly the first time where the light bulb poop went

on. It's like I don't know how to be a leader. I know how to

serve. Yes. And if you're telling me that leaders get to

serve. I want to do that.

I love that. I love that. So, so you were still

in high school then. Then you then you started to see your

path forward in in the studies that you wanted to do. Okay. So

I'm watching how. Okay.

Well, here's the deal, right? Because I think a

lot of times in when you come out of something, you try to

catch up. So I think that was one of the things. I even got a

little. My teacher called it a catch-up award, like a little

catch-up. Yeah, because I constantly felt like I was

catching up. Well, once I had my my normal card, and once I had

like, hey, you got this because you've been serving. I know how

to do this. I started going for everything. So I actually

amazingly got elected as a lieutenant governor for the

Rotary Club Junior. Oh, fantastic! Did the sector in

college? I got elected for the student government. I was vice

president of student services, then became president of the

Senate. Then I was available to do all kinds of. I founded one

of the first, actually the first fraternity that is a leadership

on Micron Delta Kappa for Georgia State University. I

started doing all these things, you know, winning like

leadership vision and all this stuff because I wanted to go

100% and I wanted to equip. So that was kind of like what

happened, like in my whole catch up thing. Yeah, but my whole

catch up also led to my burnout.

Well, I see, I see that once you once that

light went on and you saw that connection between all that

service and leadership, you just went for it. I mean, like it

gave you the confidence. It gave you the confidence to become the

leader that you are, which I love. Okay, let's talk about

this. A lot of leaders I talk to assume that when things go

wrong, it's a people problem. What shifts for a what shifts

for a leader when they start seeing it as a systems problem

instead? What what happens? What do they? Well,

and this is where I was, right? Because I mean,

again, I became all passion, which is obviously because I'm.

I mean, even the perspective I that I had is all about people

and and just going for it and and all those things. But

passion and vision without a way, a systems or process is

going to lead to that chaos. So that's one of the things that I

realized later as an entrepreneur when I had to be

able to like not only hey it's not just about us doing it but

it's really when you're talking about business and even like

carrying out a vision you're talking about multiplication

you're talking about replicability you're talking

about ownership transferring of ownership and how you do you

transfer ownership where you can't transfer gut you can't

just transfer hey this is like my transfer just the passion

like this. There has to be a pathway for people to be able to

not only be invited and enter the conversation and enter the

work, but also to be able to continue and evolve the work.

And that's where processes and systems comes in. That's where

we're transferring it beyond not only the visionary, not only the

the team that really may have even been initially impacted,

but that's where as leaders we get to invite and talk about the

impact, the impact and the sustainability question come in,

and processes and systems allow for that. It allows for the

multiplication, for the sustainability to where it goes

beyond just what I physically have the strength to do, but

it's like, hey, how do we all get to really become part of

this conversation? And I learned that as I was going in my

journey, a very passionate leader. But then realized that I

was getting a lot of chaos because I didn't have quite a

way for people to be able to repeat things. So then it be

also a times like well, we came to Hannah Show, which is not

what we wanted. That's not at all. That's not transfer. That's

not equipping my people. So I had to do processes and systems

so that they were equipped. Because when they were equipped,

then they were the ones that were even better innovation than

what I could do. Had to move from the soloist to the

conductor, and the only way that that can really happen is to

have the systems in place and the processes that will allow

other people to do to shine.

So when you okay, so your company Hardenomics is a

is I love the name by the way. It's great. It brings together

heart and economics, the human and the operational. So how did.

Okay, when you first started incorporating that, how did it

come to life? What does it actually look like in practice

inside an organization? So you come to an organization that's

perhaps in chaos, and do you have to start by getting buy-in

from the top people, or do you? Yeah. Okay. So how?

Yeah. So a lot of times, right? I mean, like, and

I run into both organizations, and this is where where I

started. Even in the university, or even like afterwards, it's

like you know, you're all about the people, and you know, hey,

we we all know each other, and you know, you have your little,

you have your group, but then you have this vision that is

bigger than you, and then it's like, oh, how do we maintain

other people? Because maybe other people come in, and you

can't sustain that, you know. You can't sustain the people, so

you kind of keep on. You bring one in, you lose one, you bring

somebody else. So that's kind of like the the chaos with the

passion. But then on the other side, you have very much leading

by processes, by systems, by memos, by policies, you know, by

compliance things where it becomes very rigid. So what

happens with something that's rigid? Well, you have a storm,

and boop. Right, they don't want to do it. They

backlash.

No, no, and change? No way. Change is hard to do.

Right, adaptability is hard to do because guess what? Trust is

not there because now really the relationship has been more

policies or driven by something else where it's not really

driven by the people or even who heart

with heart yeah yeah so

you have that either the the chaos pillow you

have the rigidity there so when we're talking about how the

combining there is a convergence that needs to happen because we

do need the processes and the systems but again the processes

and the systems are to serve the people so the people have also

the governance, the responsibility coming the

governance over those processes and systems. Not letting those

those processes dictate the governance of the people. So

that's where when I go into organizations, the first thing I

need to do, and you know what we talk, is that diagnostic. Where

are we in the process, you know what are the the different

functions. When I had my heart disease, when when I was four

years old, they thought I had a bad case of mommyitis. Okay,

your daughter does. Oh yeah, oh she's just crying a lot. Oh you

know she just misses her mama. You know all this stuff, and

then I had a cough because a lot of times even with the with the

hearts they cough, so you know they always give her cold syrup

and all that, or you know couldn't breathe. So let's look

at about asthma. So there was all these symptoms. They never

thought about looking into the heart until I collapsed, because

no kids don't get heart disease. Yeah, for older people, and

especially back in the 80s, you know, no, you don't. So I think

also I I see that happen in organizations a lot. We look at

hey the somebody the we we have a changeover a lot of people

coming in and coming out. We have maybe profits are

dwindling. Maybe the customer big customer loyalty is not

there. Or hey we keep on adding all this technology, but we have

a lot really inventory, even in the technology that we have in

the apps, and that's a part where we get stuck in the

symptoms, but we're not really looking at what is causing that.

Remember, my heart was causing a strain in my lungs; it was

causing a strain in my emotions; it was causing that. But really,

the problem was the heart. The solution was not treating my

emotions. It was not treating my breathing. They had to treat my

heart, and the same way. So when I work with organizations, I

approach it the same way: is diagnostic. You know, yes, these

are the symptoms, but let's look at the different functions that

are going on in your organization, where some

functions may be strained. We all have different the different

ways that that expresses, but normally in a company that

expresses by a lot of communication problems, perhaps

over meetings, one meeting after the meeting, the meeting before

the meeting, the meeting after the meeting. The misconception

of what done is, is it done? Is it done done? Oh, it's almost

done. Even just in that, and conflicting priorities, right?

Even with the meetings, where the morning we spend the time

making decision on that, and the afternoon we having to explain

it or maybe take it take it back. So those are a bit of kind

of like where where we start coming in, where I usually am

called when there's a some of some of those things. But as far

as the leadership, yes, if we talk about leadership, who

notices a lot of times this is the C-suite because it's been

either their compliance, they're being look at hey we need to

look a bit into this because of something has happened, but also

because of the they they do see the vision, they do see what are

some of the threats that are coming in, and there needs to be

support at every level so that we can address not only the the

diagnosis, but really create and work on solutions that that are

right for them at that right time, and that does require

them.

Well, you you talked about you mentioned

trust, and and trust, of course, to me is is. Huge, and it keeps

coming up all the time, and so it'll either hold a team

together or it'll quietly tear it apart. Right? Oh yeah. So I

guess you have to get the trust of the leaders first, and then

the leaders have to either build or rebuild the trust that's been

damaged in the company with their employees, I would think.

And so, do you? I imagine you don't go into a company where

they're not willing to do that, but maybe you do. Maybe that is

like, hey guys, you're looking at the wrong thing. You know,

look this way. You know.

Yeah, I mean, again, I'm not there to convince

anybody with this. Because you have to be willing. Trust is

going to take work. Yeah, I mean, we know we all know that.

I think you know you you can lose trust very quickly, and

it's going to take some work to get it back. I think one of the

big misconceptions that we have about trust is that if I fail,

they're not going to trust me, or if those failures are going

to be just not you know they they can't trust me again. So

you kind of lose hope even in building the trust because of

your past failures, and that's not true. Proof even in in me,

my I had two heart surgeries that failed. My it was the same

leader. It was the same doctor, but talking about it and even

building off of his hope, building off of the stuff,

allowed for taking that chance again for an innovative surgery

that was not. It was in a sense worse than the other ones. At

least the other ones had a track record. This one had no track

record, but we very much believed because of the rapport

that he had built with us, right? You'd

had you'd had the same doctor all throughout,

yeah,

entire time. It was him, and he was leading it. So I

know he felt the pain when it didn't work. He felt the pain

just with us, you know. And he was very empathetic. Again, it's

the little girl. It's one heart, and then even just think about

the not only the pressure, but you know, breaking the news to

my parents when it didn't work, and also breaking the news to

like let's try again, and we did. But that's because of the

level of trust that he had built with us. And so I will. I took

that as a lesson, even for me. It was I had to learn to get

into a healthy relationship with failure, and I even go back to

those moments because it's like, hey, this was this was a big

deal. I mean, I can't. I know. I remember being asked on that

last one, and I remember my parents. But being a mom of

five, I can't imagine the level of trust that that required. And

I will say that to the to the leaders as well. It's not the

failure that causes people to not trust you. It's the way that

you're handling and the lessons that you're talking about in

that failure. Failure is gonna come. Failure actually means

you're doing something. You know, if we don't fail, we gotta

learn to fail together. But also, what really makes that

failure be that learning moment is that report, and I believe

that's really what's missing. Why do we have this lack of

trust? Is because we're trust we're trusting automation in a

way. Hey, my automatic emails to keep that relationship with you.

I'm trusting these automated text messages or my social media

posts to keep up my relationship with you. Or you should know

because I made the announcement to the entire world. So now it's

your responsibility to know that, and that's my way of

keeping our relationship together, and not really

building that rapport, building that time, which is going to

that trust is what's going to allow me and you to be able to

adapt in times of hey, it feels like the the roof is collapsing

on top of us or the floor taken from under us, and it's also

gonna be able to be as agile, where we're gonna be more

willing to take on risks that are gonna help us get to a

better place together. If we don't have that trust there,

it's not gonna happen. Or if it does happen, it may actually

even take you back when things don't go right. Because guess

what? We're not good the first time. We're never done. Right.

We're gonna fail, and that's not bad. That's feedback.

You know, it's funny. I I'm one of those people

that always believes that I want to learn from that mistake. So

let's look at the thing that went wrong, and my and so I I

play bridge. My husband and I play bridge, and I love playing

bridge. And bridge is a card game that every hand is

different. Okay, and but there's rules and there's communications

that you agreements that you have with with your partner when

you're playing, so that we know what each bid means when you're

bidding for the hands. So when we get a hand that we like made

a huge mistake or we've blown it or we got the bottom board like

that we came last in that hand, I want to know why. I want to

know how we could have done it differently. He hates that. He

hates that post mortem. He wants to just move on. But I don't

think you get. I think you learn from those things more than you

learn from the ones you do well at.

So true.

Yeah, I just I can't help myself. I'm. I think

that also comes with, and and my listeners know this because I'm

always talking about curiosity and that being such a huge

factor in anything that I do. I'm very curious, and I think

that the more curious you are, the more you can help to build

trust with people because you're you're you're asking them about

themselves and building some trust along the way. I don't

know what's your take on that.

Oh, 100% I think even just approaching as

curiosity is a big deal, not as a judgment, because I think

that's a lot of times why we don't look into those parts

because, like, oh, my kids would say it's cringy when I look at

that, right? Because we don't. Who who wants to look at our

failures? Like, you know, it's not like honestly all the thing.

But if we look at them like failures and not like learning

opportunities, and it's really again a matter of perspective

because that's absolutely true, 100% Every pivot in my

leadership, in the way that I do life, in my relationships, in my

parenting, have come from the lowest and darkest moments as

well.

Yeah,

and we do have to go back in there. Um, as a

matter of fact, for example, when I got um the call from from

the hospital about my surgery, it was 20 years later, and also

I had tried to hide it for 20 years. I didn't want to talk.

Yeah, I wasn't something like, "Hey, yeah, heart disease. Oh

yeah, I had that. You know, so I would like almost sweep it like

under the rug. Yeah, no, no big deal. I didn't tell anybody all

this stuff because I didn't want people to think I was weak. And

oh my goodness!

Why would they think that? But that's

interesting. Again, that's in the head, right? That's right

there. I don't want people to think it's weak or

give me a pass or you know think all this stuff. So then that's

what came, and now I mean honestly, after looking at that

and seeing it for what it was, it's like that didn't make me

weak. That made me strong. That doesn't just make me strong.

It's the way I've been doing things. Yeah, and that's why I

talk about it now. I mean, like honestly, that was my pivot

point.

I have to ask you because, as you mentioned, I

know you're a mother of five, and with did you consciously

tell or not tell your children about your experience, and how

did you how did that affect your parenting as they were growing.

I know you've got one little one, but the boys are older,

right? So

yeah. So I think it really came to the front, and it

wasn't because I wanted to, but at least with my doctors and my

family, because each pregnancy was a took a toll on my heart.

Okay. So at that point, it became like, yeah, that

happened. Yeah. Suddenly everything's high risk, and I'm

like, okay, yeah, I'm used to the doctors, all this stuff.

It's no big deal. It's okay. Like, how bad? Like, how life

threatening, life threatening are we talking about? Honestly,

each one, because I mean, I had lived with that. So you know,

again, my perspective is like, I get it. I know there's

complications, but let's move on, right? So, but again, that

was a way that I had coped. I'm not saying that's the best way

to do it. Yeah, I'm saying that's the way I was doing it at

the time. Got it. When I my kids as they were growing up, and

then you know, well, they got to be a part of the documentary.

They got to be a part of when like the 100 year anniversary,

and they're like, "Oh, this is like this actually did happen.

It's like, yeah, I got proof. It's just not mom. I told them

like, well, you can tell people you're like your your mom's a

zombie, so it's gonna be like baby, just because how many

times heart failure I had, and even with my heart attack and

all that. So you know, coming back and all that. But um, I I

would tell them, but I think that even as as as younger, they

wouldn't really understand, except when I would get a bit

tired, and I did start experiencing, and that was

that's also part of my story, because you would think somebody

that has gone through heart disease and you know would be

very much aware about stress, you know, making sure that we're

resting and getting enough sleep and staying away from caffeine.

Not this one. You're a you're a go

getter. I can tell that, so I I understand

that.

Yeah. So I started suffering a bit of that, and I

think that's when it became a bit more more real for my kids

because it's like, oh, we gotta help mom, and actually she did

have this hard thing, so we need to kind of keep her hydrated. I

love that. So I think in that sense it became more real. So

you, but did you ever have fear for your kids?

That

yes,

you did. Okay, yeah, yes,

that was one of the main things. Yeah, that they

were gonna be okay. Yeah, and which is again interesting about

my case because it wasn't a congenital condition. Yeah, and

it's not even genetic. There was not nobody in my family prior to

me, and actually, none of my kids have anything like that.

Yes, big time. They're super healthy. They're

all athletes. I mean, I get to enjoy their childhood. You know,

either through football, wrestling, baseball, things that

I couldn't do. Yeah, they they get to do. Oh, that's. Good.

Okay, back to business for a minute because I had to ask you

that because I'm I'm all about the kids. I I know that you're a

faculty member with the Maxwell Leadership Team, and I've only

had a a small experience with John Maxwell's leadership books

and and experience, but I I know it's like world renowned, and

you are part of his a very small number of members of his faculty

who train 10s of 1000s of coaches around the world in his

leadership curriculum. Correct?

Yes, correct.

Yeah. So, how is teaching that at such a large

scale shaped the way you think about relationships in business.

Oh my gosh! Well, one of it is you gotta not just

know the way, but you gotta show the way and guide the way. So it

puts a lot on on me also, not in a bad way, but hey, I I'm gotta

practice what I preach in a sense. Right. You know, like

this is this has got to be real in my life, which has made me

that much more not only responsible and and owning it,

and I know that it works. It works because I live it. Yeah.

So it comes in a sense. It comes easy to speak from that place

because I understand when the questions that come, and

regardless of the questions, because I've been there, I've

been through all that. I've been through the imposter syndrome.

How can I possibly teach this if you really know all the stuff

that I did, too, how am I even gonna really make it this a

living? To where is somebody really gonna pay for this? You

know, I love doing this. Do you really get paid for what you

love? So even like myths and things being being tested, but I

think overall is is the community aspect and building

community with other people, regardless of where they're at

in the world, regardless of the different backgrounds, as really

for me have been one of the most amazing parts of the experience.

We've gotten to travel together to go do country transformations

with fantastic

public in Argentina, Panama, and really, I would say what we call

him, Papa John. He outworks us all. I was going to say, how is

he? How old is he now? He

is. Oh my gosh! I think he's going to go into his

80th coming soon. I think we're selling really. I thought he

was older, but okay. So, but he's still doing

well, and

he's doing fantastic, and like I said, you

know, when we go into this country transformation, so I

mean, like we're we're tired, you know, coming back in the

evening and getting up early. No, he's like already on a

helicopter. He's gone and done podcasts. He's then gone on on

stages. He's met with major country officers. Then he comes

over and is there with us. Yeah, you know, like loving on us,

encouraging us, and I'm like, how in the world? I mean, I'm

just sitting there is just incredible. That's amazing.

Yeah. So to be able to see that, to be in that environment, it

has called me higher. Yeah, and I've really seen that. I, you

know, I think that that comes in service in any service, anytime

that you sit out there to serve. Really, I'm just like my

goodness. I get so much back from that. From that, that's how

I feel about it as well.

So, for someone listening right now who suspects

that their organization, big or small, you know, or even their

own leadership, might be out of rhythm, what's the first step

that they should take?

Well, one is being aware of that, because I would

say, like you know, being aware what is a healthy rhythm. I

think a lot of times we know something's kind of wrong or

something's off, but we don't really take the time to let's

look into that. And again, I was even I've been guilty of that

even when I had heart disease and when I didn't have heart

disease because I would ignore the very signals of what my body

would tell me, hey, you need to slow down, you need to rest,

drink some water, simple things that really made a world of

difference. So I would say that first thing to the leaders is be

aware there is a rhythm to your organization. There is a rhythm

to the way that you work, everything that we have around

us tells us there's a rhythm. That's why there's seasons.

That's why there's times in the day. There's a time for sunrise.

There's a time for sunset. You know, there's everything.

There's a time. So I think first of all, being aware of what that

rhythm is, and then seeing how am I aligning to that rhythm

right now? How am I helping my people align with that rhythm

right now, one of the big things for me is that you cannot give

what you don't have, and also you can't change what you don't

know. So with both, there comes in that initial firstly yourself

responsibility, and really understanding, becoming aware of

that, taking the time to understand. Like I said, for me,

once I was out of the trauma, I had to get acquainted with what

well was, so that when I knew what well was, I also

understood. Oh, there's still some areas of my life that are

not well, and once I started getting into rhythm, and not in

in a sense of judgmental, but being aware, unless. Something

about it. It became the freedom and ability to then serve. And

when I served, I was able to serve fully, not serve out of

just duty, which is you know, or responsibility. Yeah, this is

what I want to do. But it was just an expression of me. So I

would say that to the leaders. What I find a lot of work with

the leaders is there's a burnout level, and I can tell you, being

a hard patient, burnout feels the same. It's hard to see, and

that comes again from not taking the time and understanding. Hey,

your leadership, your work, really is an expression of your

purpose, and really a also a response. The response that you

get in your leadership is that fulfillment. So ask yourself:

Are you being fulfilled right now with the rhythm that you're

leading?

Good question. That's good. All right, just a

last couple of short, quick fire questions before we wrap up. So,

are you a reader? I'm guessing you are. And if

you read, you yeah,

yeah, yeah. You read real books still, not

e-books and things like that. So, what are you reading right

now?

Well, I had this is Fire Ready Aim

Aim. Okay.

Yeah. So, which is a this is oh my goodness, I

don't know. It's okay.

I remember the book, but I don't think I've

read it. Yeah.

So, it's about really doing things before you

feel like you're really ready, and really the in

entrepreneurship, making sure that you are hey in business,

you gotta keep what the sales cycle is and what getting to

that first financial different stages in understanding the

different stages that different businesses go through. So that's

the latest one. Okay.

Do you read do you read fiction as well?

Ah, not really.

No, I figured. Yeah,

yeah. Business books.

All right. What is your favorite thing to do

when you're not working?

Oh, the kids. Yeah, I love the kids. We enjoy

swimming. We enjoy cooking. So that is honestly the precious

time, especially because I see how fast they grow.

I know it's amazing,

right? Yeah, yeah, totally. That's my favorite.

That in dancing, I can't. Oh, what

kind of dancing?

I like well, salsa merengue. I like to do Zumba. At

least I get my dancing groove. I love

dancing, and I'm unfortunately my knees won't let

me dance anymore, and when I did Zumba, like it killed my knees

because it's all that back and forth, you know, force. But I

used to dance a lot when I was younger. Love dancing; it's

amazing.

Oh,

yeah,

I love it. So that's great. It keeps you

young. It keeps you energetic, and you know. So I dance with my

little one the most. Yeah. My teenage boys, you know, they're

not into this. Oh,

mom, yeah. But that's wonderful. And I

mentioned my curiosity. So, last question. It's a two-parter. Do

you believe that curiosity is innate or learned? And part two,

what are you most curious about these days?

I think it's innate, and it's of course just

nurtured, right? Like, I mean, like not getting trouble for

being curious. I think it's really sad that as we grow

older, we lose that curiosity. But I believe if something is

healthy, I'm glad to hear more and more people are talking

about it, and especially like with coaching being in again,

it's fun. It's okay to be curious, and it takes a sting

out of so many things. Yeah, even like the bad things or good

things, you know. Just hey, I'm curious about this. So

definitely innate. I see my kids throughout that. And what was

the second part of the question? And what

are you most curious about these days?

Well, there there's a couple of things. Honestly, I

am curious about you know with all the uncertainty. I mean,

we're seeing like our our social response to a lot of things. So,

I am curious on as we're seeing these challenges arise. You

know, in crisis, Crisis reveal a lot here. So I am every day.

There's another one revealed. Yeah, yeah.

I am curious. You know, the the bold voices. You

know how or the how. I guess in the next in the next wave. You

know how are those bold voices going to rise up? You know how

is this generation going to take on leadership? Because I think

that's that's really where we're hurting too in the younger

generation in leadership. So I'm I'm curious about the impact of

the recent crises and what seems to be on looming crisis, what's

the immediate reaction going to be with our not only our

generation and our young generation, but also even with

the older ones as we're passing on the baton in that sense? So

yeah, that's a whole

other conversation, I think. Yeah,

right,

yeah.

Well, thank you, thank you so much, Hannah. This

conversation has been a gift. I appreciate you sharing your

story with us, and the idea that when systems lose rhythm,

everything downstream struggles, and that the fix starts with

human connection, not just better processes, is something I

think every leader needs to hear. Thank you for bringing

your entire story to this conversation, and for the work

that you do helping organizations find their way

back to what matters most, and for everyone listening, I hope

this one stays with you, Hannah. You can be found at

hardhardomics.com. Is that correct? And on LinkedIn, yeah,

hardenomics.com, and on LinkedIn. Correct.

Correct.

Yeah. So I I encourage you to listen to

listen. Tell us if you like what you heard. Let us know and reach

out to Hannah for any more information about what she does.

So thank you again. Appreciate you and remember to stay

connected and be remembered.

Awesome.