Stop Chasing New Clients -- Your Best Business Is Already in Your Sphere | RR375

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of

Relationships Rule. Welcome back, also for my loyal

listeners. I appreciate you. Today we're going to talk to a

new friend, Zvi Band. Sorry for that. I'm going to first ask you

a question. What does it look like when a self-described

introverted software developer builds not one, not two, but

three relationship-focused CRMs and writes a book about it along

the way? Well, Zvi is that person. He's the founder of

Contactually, which was which is a his CRM that was then acquired

by Compass, which I think is a real estate company, in 2019.

He's the author of Success Is in Your Sphere, and now the creator

of Relatable, a CRM built around one simple idea: the the

relationships you already have are your greatest business

asset, and that was like music to my ears. By the way, Zvi and

I are going to talk about why most people know relationships

matter, but they still let them slip, and what it really means

to nurture a network intentionally, and why doing

less but doing it with real care might be the most powerful

strategy you're not using. So with that intro, welcome to the

show, Zvi. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Thank you. I appreciate. I've been looking

forward to this, not just since our first conversation, but

getting the handwritten card from you too. That was also

really nice too.

Well, I appreciate that. I'm glad you

liked it. So you started out as as a software developer, not

exactly the background most people would associate with

relationship marketing. When did you first realize that knowing

the right people mattered more than almost anything else you

could build?

Yeah, it's a great question. So I had after a short

tour of duty in government consulting. I jumped into the

startup world because I kind of felt I was more called for, and

to be honest, that was a roller coaster ride of ups and downs

and big setbacks. And I look back, and at every point where I

kind of really needed help, you know, like for example, at one

point a startup I was in disappeared overnight, and I was

like, "Oh my god, I have to like start a start a consulting firm.

I have to start taking on taking on gigs. And all of a sudden, I

was just showered with like business opportunities. I got

job job offers from people, and this thing kept happening over

and over again, and I was like, "What's going on? And I had this

like lightning bolt moment where, wow, all these amazing

things were happening in my career, not because I was good

at what I did. I think it's table stakes, but it's just

because people knew me and people trusted me, and that was

like a totally foreign concept, you know. I remember being

invited to networking events early on. I'm like, I don't

network. What? Right. That's that's for business people.

Yeah. But I just saw this amazing thing happen. So I do

credit relationships for the early part of my career, and

that's kind of that realization set me on that path.

Interesting. Well, this isn't on my question

list, but then, and make this a short answer because I have lots

of questions. But did it was it hard for you at the beginning

then with the with the the networking and so on, or was it

because you were so comfortable with these people that that you

that helped you along the way that you didn't have to worry

about that.

Oh no, I was awful at it. You know, I would walk into

a networking event, making make a lap, and then walk out the

door. Or I was so focused on like I would never follow up

people, never build relationships. I was I was truly

atrocious at

it. But you learned that it was an important

thing.

I learned as important thing, and I more importantly

learned what worked for me. Right, so for example, going to

networking event, I don't need to work the room and walk out

with 50 business cards. If I make one good friend, then

that's that that's that's perfect.

Yeah. Okay, you've now built three CRMs, and

each one taught you something that the last one did not. For

anyone who breaks out in a cold sweat the moment someone says

the word CRM, what makes relatable feel different?

Yeah, and unfortunately, this issue that

when we think about CRM, which technically stands for customer

relationship managers, right? Unfortunately, they have like

become very much the opposite. Right, we think big, heavy

enterprise systems. You have to spend all of your time typing in

data into forms, and the whole time you're screaming at

yourself, like, why am I not just using a spreadsheet to

store this information? Exactly,

because. It's overwhelming.

Yeah. Okay. And now that being said, you know

traditional enterprise CRMs are built for that, right? Or some

CRMs are built for managing your sales pipeline, right? Your

funnel of you know of deals as they move through,

right?

But they're not focused on the R in CRM, which

is relationships,

right?

So we really built, you know, every CRM I've built

has kind of flipped that around, saying, "Hey, instead of

building for the enterprise, let's build it for the end

person. And what does the end person need to do? They just

need to know what relationships are important for them. They

need to know what relationships to nurture. They need to have

all this contact information one place, and so whereas most CRMs

are built around you know sales pipelines and funnels

opportunities, relatable is really built around what we care

most about. Why I believe most people do truly care about,

which is relationships.

Okay, in your book, success success is in your

sphere. You laid out the framework called capital, and I

kind of related to this. What struck me looking through it?

Well, I just briefed it. I haven't read your book yet, but

I've done a summary, so I have an idea. I'm being honest up

front. What struck me looking through it was how closely it

mirrors the way I think about relationship building, my funnel

or my system is called real R E A L, real connection system, and

yours is of everything in that framework. Where do most people

fall down first? So you can describe the framework if you

want, and then answer that last part of the question.

Yeah, you know it's interesting. So capital stands

for you know capital like each letter in capital stands for a

different thing, right? Like so, for example, the A is for

aggregate, the P is for prioritize, the I is for

intelligence. What where most people fall short, and I think

this is the big one, is even just starting that in the in the

process in in the at the very beginning, right? Most people

treat relationships as this just organic thing that, oh, I'll

just like be better at staying in touch, and when I remember

someone, I'll reach out and everything like that, and they

rely solely on their mind. But we have to understand that, like

our brains weren't built for this, which is why the capital

strategy exists in the first place. Is that we need to bring

some structure and intentionality and systems into

our relationship building, so I and that's a very big switch,

Janice. Even like your real system, right? To say, oh, I'm

gonna start putting like actual like time blocks in my calendar

to like reach out to people. I'm gonna not just rely on random

contacts I have, my phone, and whoever comes to mind, but I'm

gonna prioritize relationships in one place. For some people,

it feels a little icky. For others, it feels a little

unnatural. But making that switch is so incredibly

important.

I agree, and it still is. People fight it all

the time because we're full of good intentions, but we don't

have. If we don't have a system to back it up and have it

diarized in our calendar, it falls by the wayside pretty

fast. So you talk about the this is one thing that I talk about

and you talk about as well. And I'm actually doing an experiment

myself right now with this, and I've already fallen off the

wagon because I was away last week. So you know I try to do

this each week. You talk about the fear of reaching back out to

people after a long silence, that inner voice that says

they'll think I only want something. So how do you help

people move past that?

Yeah, and it's funny. I've over the past seven, eight

years, I've gone on a deep mindfulness journey, and I think

a core aspect of you know mindfulness is really allowing

yourself to step back and examine your thoughts. And so,

what I guide people to nowadays is when you have those thoughts,

right? When you say like, "Oh, they're gonna think I'm salesy.

Take a step back and say okay, that's a story in my head. Is

that true?

Yeah.

And sometimes it may be true, right? If you're

reaching out out of the blue and you haven't spoken to them in

three years and you have a direct business ask for them,

okay. Well, a simple solution is don't be salesy, right? On the

other side, and one of my absolute favorite quotes, you

know, speaks to this is that people will forget what you

said, people will forget what you did, but people will never

forget how you made them feel. Sorry, I'm assuming that's high

on your list.

My favorite quote from Maya Angelou. Yep,

and so I have to take a step back and say, okay. Do I

want to make them feel? And so, oftentimes, if it's, for

example, someone who I haven't spoken to in two years, I might

feel bad. They might feel bad that they haven't spoken to me.

Also, so can I be the person saying, "Hey, Janice, I know

it's been a couple years. You came to mind today. I saw your

post on Facebook. Just thought of you. How are you doing

exactly,

and that's it,

right?

Yeah, that's beautiful, and I know I get that

question all the time with people. What do I say to them? I

haven't talked to them for so long. I think that for me,

because I live on LinkedIn, I always tell people that if

they're going to do that, that they really take a minute, look

at that person's LinkedIn profile. Notice if they're

active on LinkedIn and what may be changed from when you did

talk to them last. If anything, new job, they've moved to a new

city, they're into something new and different. Maybe just read

their profile and see if there's something that you can build

that rapport back with quickly and show that you've paid

attention to that. Right, but again, not being salesy in the

process, just opening the door again to have a conversation

because you truly want to.

Absolutely, and so many people think that has to be

perfect, right? I have to like spend an hour scanning their

LinkedIn profile to do it. Yeah, I'm not saying that

much. I'm just exactly.

Yeah, and unfortunately, where a lot of

people go off the rails is they start to get overwhelmed, or it

becomes cognitively too intense, and they're like, "Oh, I'll get

to this later. And of course, they never do. Yeah, and that's

why you know if you can't find any like any foothold, any

reason to reach out.

Yeah,

there's nothing wrong with again. We are deeply social

creatures. Everyone wants to be seen and heard and thought of.

So just, I think this is like the the the basic strategy that

I tell people do. Just I guess the baseline. If nothing else,

just say, "Hey, I thought of you today.

Yeah, hope all's well. And of course, that's

that's what I use my cards for a lot, right? Which kind of takes

them right to that place of from their head to their heart, and

and and therefore it makes them feel good to receive that. So

that's what I do, and don't expect anything in return. But

that gives you an opening to then do that email or that

LinkedIn message after, right after it's received,

and if they don't respond, that's fine, right? If

they do respond, then that opens the conversation, that breaks

the ice. They may ask, "How are you doing? Right, or you may,

yeah, or they, or they give it a thumbs up and saying, "Hey, do

you want to jump on a call sometime soon? Right? Yes.

All these different tactics and approaches, but it there's like

I feel like 90% of the work is just like in breaking the ice.

Yeah, don't overthink it. That's in Ted, right?

Right, don't overthink it. And something you

said about the story in your mind that you know is it true?

That I wanted to share with you is one of the most powerful

things I ever learned from the. I guess I call him my one of my

mentors, and he is the person that started the company. Send

out cards that I use for sending cards, Cody Bateman, and he

always says the story in your mind becomes the story of your

life. And so, right, don't what you're thinking is what's going

to happen. So change that up sometimes is a good thing, and

it's not that hard to do. Just change the story.

Yeah, or and even if you can't change it, one of the

other mantras that we really speak to and coach to is this

idea that we're only responsible for our second thought and our

first action. So it's okay if that first thought comes up of

like, oh, they're going to think I'm salesy, I'm annoying, I

don't know what to say. They're going to be angry that I haven't

reached out. Allow that to be your first thought, but then

what? What is your second thought where you can rethink

that? And then what is then the action you're going to take

based on that second thought?

Right. Beautiful. That's that's beautiful. You've

answered my next question, so I'm moving on. I love the idea

of attaching outreach to something already in your

routine. So, like sending two emails every morning right after

you open your laptop. Can you walk us through what that looks

like in practice and why that kind of tiny habit works when

bigger systems often do not?

Yeah, so I have to credit BJ Fogg for this. You

know, for you know coming up with a research research behind

this. The idea is that it's very hard to establish a brand new

habit or routine, right? Like flossing is these example. If

you say, "Oh, I'm just going to floss every day, well, that

doesn't really help, and you're most likely going to fail. Yeah.

But if we make a logical link in our brain and establish the

neural pathways with something we're already doing, there is a

much much higher likelihood that we're going to do it. Right. So

after I brush my teeth every day, I'm going to floss. Oh,

okay, great. I know what to do. I'm programmed. I'm already

brushing my teeth every day. Then I can floss. And the same

thing applies to our relationship actions, right? So

it can be something as simple as, and you know, one of my

clients like really has pushed this, you know, to to no end.

Once they press the start button on the coffee maker, right?

While the coffee is brewing, she will take out her phone and she

will text a few people she have she hasn't spoken in a while,

right? And she knows, and she has programmed, right, that I

have this specific time of day. I'm always pressing the button

on the coffee maker, and whenever I do, I'm going to do

this right. And so that habit loop makes a really big

difference. And so obviously, like you know, we have to think

about this a lot because let's face it, our relationships don't

necessarily care whether or not we're talking to them today,

tomorrow, next month, or never, so it's up to us to have that

like trigger and have that initiative. Say, oh yeah, I'm

not just going to reach out to them today. I'm going to reach

out to them like right now.

So there's so many things in that one little

thing, really, because it takes me to new connections. Okay, on

LinkedIn, and somebody you reach out to connect with somebody.

Either you've just been focused on a certain group of people

that you want to reach out to, or certain people in a certain

area or a certain industry, and you have a bit of a list or a

saved search, and you're now going to start that process of

reaching out to them, and when people accept your connection

request, they just accept it. They never say thanks. They

never say, or they may say thanks, but that's it. There's

no conversation starter. It's again up to you, and you you

need to know to go to that directly as quickly as possible

once they've accepted, so it's fresh in their mind. Now you

start the conversation, but it's always up to you.

Yeah, exactly right. And

yeah,

and I think the the fascinating thing around this

and um is this is one of the other mantras that I coach and

speak to. It's this idea that most people won't, right? Right.

So for example, most people will just send a LinkedIn request and

then never reach out, right? Most people will see the people

that they should follow up with and never reach out. And so, if

you say, "Well, most people won't do this, but I could be

one of the few that actually does the moment they accept a

LinkedIn request, I shoot a message with just like an

interesting question or compliment or a hook, or

something like that. Then great, I'm better than 99% of of other

people out there.

I had a new person, new client, just that I

was training yesterday for the third time, and she is now in

the habit of she's building her connections because she started

from scratch. Like this is a brand new LinkedIn person, but

she's keen and she wants to open a new market, more corporate.

And she said something about, yeah, I sent out this many this

week, and so many have have accepted. And I said, and what

did you do? And she said, I said, thank you for the

connection. I said, that's not going to start a conversation.

You have to be the one to start the conversation. So it doesn't

come as naturally as people think. The other thing to that

last point is okay. So is it just someone who like with that

girl that did it while the coffee maker was was working?

Did someone just come to her mind, or does she have a list

beside her that she has been working through, or what?

Yeah, it's a great question, and the answer is

both. Okay, so I think we are all familiar with this idea

that, let's say, for example, we're driving past a

neighborhood, we come across a restaurant, and all of a sudden,

our brain is thinking about like a friend or past client of ours

who mentioned that restaurant, right? And all of a sudden,

we're thinking about that person, right? So that might be

just like true, just serendipity. In which case, yes,

it's totally okay, like to reach out to that person right now,

saying, "Hey, I just thought of you, right? I was in your

neighborhood, thought of you, right? That kind of work, that

works. But then, listen, let's face it, we can't rely solely on

our brain, because as Robin Dunbar showed, we can only

maintain around 150 relationships at any point in

time, and so we need to have some kind of alternate tool. So

that's why, in addition to serendipity, we also need

engineered serendipity, and that's what relatable our CRM

focus on of intentionally surfacing through our AI system,

relationships that are going south that you may not have even

realized that it's been six months since you last spoke to

them, right? But again, algorithms and technology, you

know, are brute forcing it and can. And so I believe both are

important. So you know that client of mine. Sometimes she'll

just like say, "Oh yeah, there are a couple of people that came

to mind yesterday. Let me text them. Other times she may open

up her contacts and just scroll through a few people and see if

who names come to mind. Other times she'll get like a push

notification from Relatable, our CRM, yeah, and with three people

to reach out to, and she'll just message those people.

Perfect. Okay, but it's something that she

knows to do every day.

Yes, absolutely. Right, and I think each of us is

obviously you know very different in our own wiring.

Yeah, some people work really well with time blocking. Some

people are very good at spur of the moment. I think about

someone, I'll reach out to them right now in the middle of a

call, other people are a lot more relaxed, right? A lot more

methodical and intentional, and they have the hooks. And whether

they do it or not, on a daily basis, they'll make sure they

get to it. Every person operates slightly differently.

Of course. Okay, this is so good. This sounds so

good. So your philosophy seems to be about doing less but doing

it better in a world that rewards hustle and volume. How

do you make the case for that?

Yeah, it's a great question. So I think about this

a lot, and honestly, I think the world is significantly changing.

Right. So you know, when it comes to you know, for example,

nowadays with AI systems, we have true godlike technology

where we could essentially right now, even on this call, build

whatever software application we want, right, or write a book,

you know, in one thing. It takes us to say, okay, well, what is

the one thing I wanted to do, right? If I don't have to sit

here and let's say write a whole post or write a whole software

program, all I have to do is identify the one command that I

want. That completely changes our line of thinking. Same with

relationships. Right. We tend to think that you know we need to

have 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of LinkedIn connections and

people on our database, but oftentimes we're completely

missing saying, "Hey, well, who are my best referral sources?

And maybe that's just five or six, right? I know someone who

has a half million dollar business, and she has four

people she can credit for that, and that's it. Everything else

is just noise, right? And that's that's a complete different

shift. And so I think that applies to relationships where

you know if we say, hey, I don't have to be building a list and

blasting 1000s of people. Instead, if I take it, take some

time, prioritize my CRM, and saying, "Hey, who are the most

important people I could reach out to? That can completely,

completely flip it around.

Okay, my next question actually has a thought

now coming from what you just said. So I'm going to read the

question, but then I want to ask the the side bit as well. When

you look at the professionals whose relationships are

generally working for them, generating referrals, repeat

business, real loyalty. What habits do they share that others

do not? But you also made me think about. Well, it's it's

really what habits do they share that others do not? Do you have

to look at your numbers and do a a list of who are your like. You

need to know your numbers in the sense of your relationships.

Yeah, absolutely. So that's that's definitely one of

them. A couple things that really come to mind instantly as

we talk about this, Janice. Number one is consistency.

They're playing the long game, right? They're not trying to get

leads for this quarter. They're not trying to get leads for this

week. They're not trying to just close their existing pipeline.

They're saying, "Hey, who are what are the seeds I can plant

for you know years down the line? And sure enough, that pays

off. The other one is they focus on connection, not

transactionality. You know, transactionality is like you

know, I reach out to someone, and it's very clear that I'm

just fishing for business. Do you want to buy a seller home

with with me right now, versus a relationship saying, "Hey,

Janice, I care about you. I'm fascinated by the I am enough

poster and your background. Let's talk about that, right? We

don't need to talk about anything business related. Trust

comes first, and then the third. I think this is a big one that

often, oftentimes, a lot of people get very tripped up on.

It's authenticity.

Yeah, that's an overused word, but I totally get

it, and I I appreciate that. Like I, I understand that you

have to be authentic, or it shows through. If you're not,

yeah. And if you do just, you know, and that I

think, I think that manifests itself in a couple ways. One is,

don't just do what everyone else tells you to do, right? Because

that gets you in a comparison thinking. If you really. Don't

like coffee meetings? Don't do coffee meetings. If you really

hate Zoom calls, don't do Zoom calls, right? If you really love

networking events as much as people like, you know, may

poo-poo them, then do that, right?

Yeah.

Find what works for you, and then the other and

think this-I've seen a lot of amazing unlocks-is you don't

have to hide behind your LinkedIn profile, right? You

know your LinkedIn profile, you know, will be for most people,

you know, your CV of all your professional accolades. It has

to change

today, by the way. That has to do exactly,

yeah,

right. And so, for example, I joke like if you look

at my LinkedIn profile, I you know one of my job listings is

I'm an indoor plant destroyer that usually like instantly

opens up conversations, or I'm always in search of the great

breakfast burrito. So even then, you can start to see some

personality. Yes, I have one client who, in her normal real

estate newsletter, started putting her gardening tips

because she loves gardening, and sure enough, that attracted

people who really want to talk to her about gardening. Yeah,

yeah. No, I love that. I just I was going to ask

you something else on that line, and then it went away.

Authentic. Yeah, I'll just let it go. It'll come back. So your

book came out in 2019. What has changed in how you think today

about relationship building since then, and what has stayed

exactly the same? Oh, I know what I was going to say. Pause

for a second on that question. I'll come back to it. What I was

going to do was just share that you brought up something about

you know do what you what feels right for you. I did I love net

loved networking before COVID. It was something I did all the

time, but I also learned just before that that I had been in

BNI for four years. You know what BNI is, yeah? Business

networking, and our chapter was a very successful chapter. But

we met at seven in the morning, which meant I had to be there at

quarter quarter after six in the morning, on a Wednesday, and on

Thursday morning I had a migraine because I'd been up so

early. Because I'm not a morning person, I'm in more of a night

owl, so I finally realized that I had to do what felt right to

me and not do that anymore, and it freed me up so much because

then COVID hit, God forbid, but it opened my world because I

started using LinkedIn and meeting people all over, and it

was so important to learn that lesson that I didn't have to do

that. Absolutely,

I love that. Yeah, yeah. I and I I I associate I

associate with that too. You know, I stopped doing you know

days of like back to back coffee meetings because I realized that

wasn't that wasn't joyful, and it was more. It was very. It

felt very transactional. Now I'll do longer, deeper coffee

meetings, but with the right people. Right. You know, I'll go

out for lunch or go for a walk. You know, I'll host dinners.

Right. Yes. There's so many different approaches that you

can take, and it's a matter of like finding what works for you.

So yes, if you see me, even me nowadays, like at a networking

event, you know, for some reason, I'm hiding in the

corner, right? Because like I don't want to be there. Instead,

I'm usually out in the lobby, like you know, with my

pre-planned coffee meetings back to back, because I know that's

what works for me, and that's what I love, and that's what's

been fantastic for my own energy.

Yeah, and I'm always saying, make sure you

speak to this person, this person, this person, this person

before you leave. Usually, the the person who's signing

everybody in, the host of the event, the speaker if there is

one, and the hubs in the room, the people who know everybody.

So I'm more outgoing that way. So it's just different, right? I

love it. Okay, back to the question. Your book, your book

came out. What has changed, and how do you think about

relationship building, and what has stayed exactly the same?

Yeah, it's a great question. So I think it. I look

at that book, and I'm really proud of it still nowadays. And

I don't take that lightly. Like you know, obviously, like

there's work in the past I'm not proud of, etc. Or I throw away

or rewrite. I still look at that book and say, all right, for

what I knew and understood back then, it absolutely it

absolutely made sense. And I still think it's a great read

for anyone who is looking for some kind of strategy or

intentionality behind their relationships, and of course,

there's some things I would change. If I were to write a

book these days, and actually I have a Substack, you know,

that's titled like this, it really comes down to this: your

network starts with you. So, Janice, as we were talking

about, for example, we're talking about this aspect of

mindfulness. Of understanding the stories in your head that

stop people from reaching out, and the more we can work on

those stories that are in us, the better relationships we can

build. And I have so many examples from my personal life

that have illustrated this for me and the people I work with.

That really, the cultivating your own internal relationship

with yourself can be one of the best things you do to build

relationships with others.

Can you give me one of those stories?

Oh, absolutely. So I have been. I was a number of

years ago. I was invited to a conference of a lot of, I would

say, like high power, very accomplished entrepreneurs, and

I'll be honest, like I did have you know some reason to be

there. I had built, built, and grown a pretty big software

company, but I walked in, and I remember for four days I had the

deepest imposter syndrome. I I was surrounded by best-selling

authors, and I'm like, my book hasn't even come out, and it's

probably not going to be a bestseller. I was surrounded by

people who had flown there in private jets, and I'm like, I

flew coach because that's you know I'm still a struggling

entrepreneur, right? I was surrounded by people who were so

good at relationship building and confident, and you know, fit

and everything like that. All these things, and I'm like, wow,

I I am not enough. Now, fast forward a couple years later,

and I had started doing a lot more personal work and

cultivating that sense of self love and realizing that one of

my deepest wounds was I didn't love myself, and sure enough,

the day before I went to that same conference a couple years

later, I said, "You know what, Svee, I love myself, and I'm

just going to pretend. I don't have to believe it. I can just

pretend for the next two days that everyone in this room loves

me, and I had Janice the best time. I made so many friends, so

many amazing connections. Someone would like kind of give

me a little bit of a cold shoulder. I'm like, huh, what's

what's their problem, right? And I just had I was glowing the

whole time, and the only thing that changed from one to the

other was my internal state.

That's pretty special, actually, because that

means you you grew leaps and bounds.

Yeah, like a tactical person, even a tactical thing,

right? To the people that you work with, you know, on

LinkedIn, are are you sending a cold LinkedIn message with a

store in your head, going, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god! I

hope they respond. Oh my god, I really need this business. Oh my

god, how am I going to pay my mortgage? Or this person seems

really cool. I'd love to get to know them. Right?

Yeah.

Again, same same person you're talking to. You

are the same person. It's just that slight little mindset to

me. That slight change in that story that can have a radically

different outcome.

So that makes me think of we met on a action on

an actual virtual networking event put on by orchestrating

connections with David Homan.

Homan, yeah,

and through David's through meeting David,

I've met the most interesting people, and one of them, or

sorry, one of the things that he talks about is just refresh my

memory. Are you part of his, like you're? Have you been to

more than one of the? Yeah, I've

attended many of them. Yeah,

have you gone in person?

Yes. Is

it way better because I haven't done that yet?

Traveled to? Have you traveled to go to

one? No, I mean it took me an hour and a half one

time to get downtown to DC. But like you know, but otherwise,

but otherwise, no. I haven't yet to travel. I would consider the

way I'd say it is different flavors of ice cream, right?

Each

event, each

each event, or like virtual versus in person, right?

One's not better than the other. They're just very different

energies, and some may be attracted. I happen to like both

of them.

Okay, so one thing David talks about is, I

guess, in his book, he talks about knowing the different

types of characters you come across, you know the talk, the

overtalker. He's got names for them all, and they're kind of

fun. But he talks about being a what does he call it? The type

of connector, like a a super connector. But I don't think

that's the term he uses. But he says that those kinds of people,

the super connectors, I'll call them, know how to ask for

something for themselves. Do you do you recall that? Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. And I think that's is a is a big

struggle that I think most people have is that, you know,

we obviously want to we don't want to be the takers, right?

You don't want the person who only has a transactional

mindset, right? So how do you differentiate?

How does yeah?

And we don't want to be and so so oftentimes we

overcorrect where we give, give, give, give, give, and then all

of a sudden when people say, "Okay, so what do you need?

You're like, "I oh no, we freeze. And I'm very guilty of

that, Janice, right? You know, the the question, "How can I

help you? I know it's still terrifying for me. Yeah, it's

awkward.

Yeah.

And so one of the things I do appreciate that

David is he's very he almost pushes everyone like have an ask

yes have the gives too but have an ask like make sure you're

coming in with some kind of thing you need because people

want to help each other, and they can't if you know

everyone's like scratching the head, going, "I don't know what

does V need.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So it's another, it's another

thing we have to learn to do. What did someone say in an

email? Eloquent, elegantly to do elegantly, and to do

authentically,

yeah. Can you touch on the learning part for second

chance? Yeah. So actually, I it's coming to me now. Like I

realize I close my book with this. Obviously, you and I have

talked about a lot of tactics here, and I have you and I have

1000s more that we can kind of bring up that we've picked up

and learned. I, I. I used to think that this was very

overwhelming, and I realized that the one thing that some of

the best networkers did to get to where they are today is that

they just didn't give up, right? So they've all, for example,

sent emails that they instantly regretted. They've all

completely fumbled introductions. They've all

forgotten to follow up. Now that can discourage a lot of people,

but the only way you're going to learn is by just like constantly

just kind of being in the game and being in the arena. And I've

taken that to heart. So, all the tactics and everything aside, I

think the most important thing someone has to do is like just

the bill is say, "Hey, this is important for me. I really want

to care more about people. I want to be more connected. I'm

just going to keep putting in the reps for it. I'm going to

keep learning through that. Through sometimes through like

very very hard like you know, hard-earned, you know, you know,

situations.

I think you just answered my last question. If

someone listening, it's okay. It's okay. I'm just going to

read it and see if you missed anything out. But I pretty much

think you answered it. If someone listening right now

wanted to take one step today toward being more intentional

about their relationships, not a system, not a tool, just one

honest step. What would you tell them? And I think

absolutely,

yeah.

Well, I would say do that. You can add to

it. Yep.

Take out your phone. I want you go to your contacts,

scroll down a few pages, find some random person who you

haven't spoken to in a while, send a quick note saying, "Hey,

just thought of you. Hope all is well. No need to respond. Notice

your emotions. Notice what's coming up for you. Ask yourself

if that's true, and then do 54321, Send right the bill. I

love it. I

need to do that.

And ask yourself, did I die? Nope. Okay. Cool. Right.

Let it

go and just let it go.

Right.

Yeah. That's beautiful. I love it. Okay. I

think we're out of time, but I'm going to ask you just two quick

questions. One, are you? You must be an avid reader because

you've mentioned a few people along the way that books that

you referred to. Do you read today in real books or e-books

or e-readers or video or YouTube, what do you do?

Yeah, I'm the worst. I'm I am someone who has like I

think at any point like three books I'm switching back and

forth to on my Kindle, and then one or two Audible books and

everything like that. So you guys, I think there's like five

or six ruminating at one point in time.

Okay, how are you keeping them straight?

It's more honestly, it's just like it's. And a

friend, a friend described this to me. Just imagine you've got a

stack of books on your desk, just with all bookmarks. Which

one do you feel like reading right now? And so I have

different energies. You know, as I'm going to bed at night, I

like to read. I like to read more of a fiction to like rest

my mind. If it's a Saturday afternoon, maybe something a

little more in depth and thoughtful. I flip back and

forth all the time based on my energy.

You know, I once took a course called Your 24

Sacred Gifts, and it was this amazing woman, and she went

through all the gifts, and she says we all have between three

and five of these gifts, and we were talking about knowledge,

which was one of them, and it's a gift that she said that I

have, but she said, "Are you so to to delineate it? She said,

"How many of you have a stack of?" Books beside you on your

night table that you know they've been there for a while

and you haven't finished them, and that was me. And she said,

"Just know that what you've read in that book is probably what

you needed to get. Don't feel you have to finish it just

because it's sitting there. And that was another awakening for

me because I have to, I felt guilty to start a new one if the

other one wasn't finished.

Oh, absolutely! I'm I'm now militant about dropping

a book if if the energy doesn't. Great, right? I have a whole

shelf on Goodreads of books I started but didn't finish.

Yeah, there you go. Okay, and then the other

question is my favorite word is curiosity, and I would like your

opinion on or your take on curiosity. Is it innate, or is

it learned? And second part of the question: What are you most

curious about today?

It's a great question. It is absolute. It is innate.

Unfortunately, society blocks it out of us, and so therefore, I

think we have to not learn but remember it. And so, for me,

curiosity is being interested in something without any logical,

rational reason why.

That's cool. Okay, you know, there's no right

or wrong answer. I just love to get people's opinion on it.

That's a good one. I haven't heard that before. And what what

are you most curious about today?

I am. Oh my God, there's so many things I'm

curious about. I think the one thing I'm curious about is how I

right now in 2026 can cultivate a deeper sense of intuition.

Oh, I love that because I think I'm quite

intuitive, and I think it's an amazing tool that we have, and

it can be grown. What's the word? Yeah, I guess it can be

grown. So that's amazing. I love that. Thank you, and

I am not. I am not intuitive. That's the thing.

Again, I know I have to remember how to be more intuitive.

Well, I think curiosity probably has something

to do with that too, right? Yeah. But being intuitive, going

with your intuition, going with your gut on things, has has been

something I've done for a long time, so I actually I think my

mother was very intuitive, and I may have gotten some of that

gene, but we'll see. Anyway, thank you again. Thank you so

much for being here today, and for being a good a good sport at

answering all my questions. And just a little wrap up. I'm going

to tell my audience that I feel that this was a really grounding

conversation that Zvi and I had. You have a way of making

something that can feel overwhelming, staying genuinely

connected to the people we remember, feel completely

doable. And I think that's the gift. It's not about having a

perfect system, although I know relatable would be for you now.

That perfect system, or close to perfect. We don't want to be

right. We have to always be striving. Oh,

it's always improving. Yes,

it's about showing up consistently for the

people already in your world. Thanks for being here and for

the work that you keep putting into making relationships feel

human again. For anyone who wants to know to learn more,

they can find you at zband.com. Correct?

Yep, absolutely. You can. There's only one Zband that

I know of out there, so you can search for anything Zband. You

can also go to BeMoreRelatable.com.

Okay, I'll put that in there as well, and go

find his his relatable system. Check it out, and all the links

will be in the show notes. And again, thank you so much for

being here. Thank you to my audience for listening. As

always, I appreciate you, and remember to stay connected and

be remembered.