Episode 490 – The Stories We Tell: Building Unstoppable Connections Through Life with Ellen Weeren

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_00] What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00] Each week I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00] Hi everyone! Welcome once again to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad that you're here, wherever you are. Hope you're having a good day. Hope all is going well. Today we're going to talk with Ellen Weeren. Ellen is a writer, among other things. And she has done a variety of useful things in that regard, but I don't want to give it all away.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00] And I won't, but she has been, she's written fiction and she's a writing coach and well, I'm not going to tell you all of it because she will. Otherwise we're not having a fun podcast. So Ellen, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you, Michael. I'm so glad to be here.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I'm really glad that we get a chance to do this. So why don't we start, oh, as I love to do, tell us about kind of the early Ellen growing up.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_04] Oh boy. I know, but... I know! That poor little girl. So that early Ellen...

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00] Especially since you had an older brother, but hopefully he protected you. But anyway...

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, he is my biggest protector by far. Oh good. Oh good. Yeah. No, he's a great big brother. I also have a younger stepbrother who didn't get the opportunity to protect me in the same way, but he's also a great guy. But yeah, I grew up in a military family. My dad was from Wyoming and joined ROTC in college and saw it as a way to travel the world.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_04] So my parents met in Japan and got married in Japan and eventually made their way to South Carolina where I was born. And then we moved to Alabama and they started just realizing that maybe their marriage wasn't the best situation for our family for them.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_04] And so they got divorced when I was in first grade. So that was kind of tough. Yeah, kind of tough because my brother went to go live with my dad and I lived with my mom. And because my dad was in the military, he moved around quite a bit. So my mom was a working mom.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00] Was your mom Japanese?

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_04] No, no. American from New York. Yeah, her father, her stepfather was in the Air Force and that's how she...

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02] So that's how she moved around. There you go.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, yeah. So an adventurous spirit, my mom was. And so that set me up to be, you know, the latchkey kid coming home from school by myself. And my mom was not a college graduate until after the divorce. And she ended up getting a bachelor's degrees and two master's degrees and all but dissertation on her PhD. So she was in school a lot at night. So I was home alone a lot.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_04] So that's kind of where stories were powerful for me because they were my friends and I wrote poetry and words just kept me occupied. So that's kind of the beginning of why stories matter to me so much. They were a great escape and in some ways a babysitter.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm. So you did that and you went to school.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00] And did you go to college?

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_04] I did. I went to George Mason and I thought that I had to do something like my parents were doing. So I started off with a psychology degree or major and quickly realized that was not for me. And then I tried accounting because my dad was a CPA. Also not for me. So I settled into an English degree and that's exactly where I was meant to be. But, you know, not a lot of opportunities when you graduate with an English degree back then. So big credit to my parents.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00] I'm not sure whether it's different now or not, but that's okay.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_04] Actually, the Wall Street Journal just had an article in December about how big companies are hiring storytellers. There's over 50,000 jobs for storytellers with big companies on LinkedIn.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02] Wow.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_04] Because news outlets are not as powerful as they used to be. They're not focused on those small town stories or, you know, how a company grew. So companies have to tell their own stories now. So English major is not a bad way to go now.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, good. All right. So you got a, you got a degree in English.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. Yes. And then I started working for the custom service and made my way up through, I was at one point a, an administrative assistant when at one point I was handling all the correspondence for the office of enforcement. And then I was a conference planner and then I was a policy writer. And that was really exciting back then because I was writing federal law enforcement policy. I wouldn't want to be doing that now.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00] So where were you based? Where were you located?

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_04] Washington, D.C.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00] You were in D.C. Okay.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I was.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00] My brother worked for the customs department. He was in communications down in Florida.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, how exciting. Yeah.

[00:05:55] Yeah.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00] But yeah, I'm not sure that I would want to be involved in policy and all that today either. It's a, it's crazy.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_04] It's a complicated world. Yeah. It's a very complicated world. So, and then I had a family.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00] No matter what political persuasion you are, you have to have a very thick skin.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. Yes. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah. No. So then my son was born and I started working part time. I was very lucky to be able to work part time.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_04] And then my daughter was born, my older daughter was born and it just became too hard. So I decided to stay home. So I stayed home for 25 years. And that was an amazing experience. But I got divorced about four years ago without a career. So now I'm like, oh, okay, I need a career. So here I am.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00] And, and, and where are you?

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_04] Well, I'm doing a lot of exciting things. I have finished a novel that I'm looking for an agent for. It's called in the dust of elephants. I have a short story collection that's coming out from cornerstone press called love and other failures. And I am running a writing retreat. People come to my home in West Virginia. My backyard is on the Shenandoah river. So it's really peaceful and quiet. So writers will come to my basement, which is its own apartment.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_04] And they'll just take advantage of quiet space to create and edit and think of new ideas. And then I host writing workshops and I also help college applicants with their application essays.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00] One of the things that I have, I've observed, I have a friend, she's now passed, but she used to type people's PhD thesis and so on. And they have to be written in a certain way, like the Chicago method and so on. And I've always been really amazed at these absolutely rigid writing styles that people have to use.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00] I always thought it was a little bit strange that there's no flexibility, but I guess you get marked down if you don't write it just exactly the right way.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And when I was working for customs, we used the government printing office style manual, which is the pits. But yeah, I think it's just for consistency and clarity. And some of those documents become legal. Some of them become legal documents and they can be presented in court.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_04] And the way the customs bureau worked at the time is there were a bunch of different divisions and there were a lot of different people writing the letters that the commissioner would sign. And so you can imagine the different voices and the different styles that would come across. So to have consistency, it is smart to have a style sheet, but some of them are overly complicated.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But I guess I do really appreciate the reason for it. It can be a challenge. But at the same time, her job was to be the expert in making sure that she produced them in the right style because the students didn't necessarily know how to do that. And that was what her job in part was. So she enjoyed it. She had a lot of fun with it.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And what a tremendous gift, because it's when you do something every day, you know, at like the back of your hand. But when you only have to do it once, it's hard to learn it for that one big major project. And so much is writing on that. If you get it wrong, you can fail the whole project, whether the content is right or not.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. And that's understandable, I guess, once I think about it. Yeah. So you worked for Customs and all that. And then, as you said, you decided to stay home. So you have two daughters and a son?

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03] I do. Yeah.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, wow. Yeah.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00] How old are they now?

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_04] They are. My son, Jake, is 28. My daughter, Alexis, is 26. And my youngest, Caroline, is 24.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00] And have you started the lectures, you know, like now, just remember, at some point, you're going to have to support your mom in the manner she wants to become accustomed to?

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. My son has promised to build a house in his backyard and let me stay in the backyard. He said, I don't think I could live with you, but you can live in my backyard. So.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00] Well, what a, what a, that's an interesting way to put it.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. In a building, not just in the backyard.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00] Well, that's true. At least you'll be in a building. In a building. Yeah. And you're writing stories. So, you know, he needs to be a little bit careful because you might publish some interesting stories if he's not careful.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_04] That's right. There's leverage. There's leverage. You know. No, they're all, they're really amazing kids and they're very supportive of me. I'm super, super lucky.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00] That's, that's great. Well, so, but writing is as a, as a career is, it sounds like fairly recent.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_04] We lived in India in 2008 and 2009, a little bit of 2010. And I started a blog because the kids went to school and my ex-husband went to work and I was just kind of home. And India is so different that I really just wanted to capture the little details that I knew I would forget.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_04] So almost every day I wrote a blog post and, or every other day I wrote a lot about just our day-to-day experiences and actually had quite a nice following. And one, a couple of boards trip-based recognized my blog as one of the top 10 expat blogs in the world, which was kind of cool. I don't even know how they found me, but that got me writing on the more personal level. And then when I came back to the United States, the day-to-day life just wasn't as interesting.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_04] So I started writing fiction because that was more fun.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So have you published, actually gotten published yet? Any, any books?

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_04] I have published short stories. I have a short story in the Saturday Evening Post. I have a couple in the Kenyan Review and different literary magazines, Fractured Lit, Crack the Spine. And I probably have about 10 stories that have been published.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00] And your first book is, is working its way through the process. Now you need, you're still looking for an agent.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_04] Right. Well, my short story collection has a publisher, Cornerstone Press, out of the University of Wisconsin in Stevens Point. And that's coming out in September of 2027. But my novel, I'm just finishing up. I just met with an editor to rewrite the beginning. So I've rewritten the beginning and now I'm sending it out to try and find an agent.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00] So, so at this point in your life, what do you do for an income?

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_04] I was married for 30 years. So I do have alimony and I will have that. I'm fortunate in that regard because a lot of people in my situation don't have that. But my main income maker is people staying at the house, doing the retreats and helping students with their essays, their college essays. Well, that's cool.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. That keeps you busy.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, it's busy around here.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00] So what do you like most about writing?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_04] I mostly write to find out why things make sense. And I really enjoy that aspect of it that often I'll tackle something that on the surface seems ridiculous or absurd. And then I write my way into meaning for it. And I like that puzzling out. And when you're writing about yourself in your own life, it's therapeutic. You can put thoughts down and you can throw them away. You don't have to show them to anybody.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_04] But you can kind of just process what you're feeling and how it's impacting you.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00] As you're writing, especially when you're writing with a variety of characters, do your characters ever take over and basically run what you write? And do you let them do that? Or is it all you have to control it?

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, so that's a really interesting question because I'm in a really great group of novel writers and a lady that's in my group named Jane Ward had her novel launch date yesterday and we met and we were Wednesday and we met yesterday and we were talking about it. And she totally has her characters take over. I have not had that happen to me until my novel. And the main character is a storyteller named Kalpana and she has totally taken over. She is in charge.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Well, and I'm letting her I'm letting her do that.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00] The value is that it you'll you'll learn a lot about her, but you'll also probably have a much better and more interesting story all the way around.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, when I first started writing, I had a writing instructor named Nancy Zafras who really became my mentor and unfortunately she's passed away. But she told me that I was right in my stories until the end. I was on a horse and I was whipping it. I wanted it to go where I wanted it to go. And that does feel forced when someone reads it. And so now I've I've been able to let go a little bit and let the story. I just really try when I'm writing to think, OK, what would logically happen next?

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_04] What is the next logical thing that would happen? Because it's really easy to get caught up in language and beautiful scene building. But the plot is why people read. That's what they want to know. What's going to happen. Right. So I'm I've really started focusing on that. What's the next thing?

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00] Well, one thing you said and you said it earlier, that stories really saved you while you were growing up and so on. When did you realize that not just writers, but everyone needs stories to help save them in their lives?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I think it was when I started helping the call the applicants with their college admission essays because there's so much writing on that. You know, a transcript is boring. A SAT score is boring. It's just a number on a page. It's a letter on a page. But these essays and they're only 650 words and they give them a chance to really show who they are in a way that doesn't come across anywhere else in the application.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_04] And I recently helped a young lady named Julia with her medical school application essays. And that was like 40 essays. And man, she poured her heart and soul into every single one of those essays. And it worked. She got in. And the first time around, she didn't get in. And this time around, she had done some extra work to get her background a little bit stronger also.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_04] But her stories were so powerful. They literally came alive on the page. And that's magic. When someone can share that and you can feel it, that's amazing.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_04] And I also think just meeting people who are different from you and learning about their story, we all have these experiences that no one else has ever had. And so we can be more enriched just by knowing other stories. Right. Because we can't experience everything ourselves.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00] Well, yeah. And stories are a great way when you have a good storyteller who tells a story or writes it down. They draw you in to the experiences.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, they really do.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00] One of my favorite examples of that, I was just thinking of it, is for years there was a show, I don't know whether you ever listened to it, on NPR, Prairie Home Companion. Oh, I haven't heard that. And the guy who was the host and the creator of it was a guy named Garrison Keillor. And he, every week, well, he created this town in Minnesota called Lake Wobegon, Minnesota.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00] And the stories were all about the characters in Lake Wobegon and all the things that they did. And every week he told a story. And my understanding is he may have had some notes, but primarily they just came out each week as he was doing it live on the air.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00] But he told incredible stories that would just draw you in to the life in this fictitious town of Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, the men are good looking, and the children are above average.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, perfect. Yeah.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_04] But yeah, no, oral storytelling, especially in Appalachia, and I live in Appalachia, is it's such a rich tradition. And to be able to do that, oh, magic. I have to edit. I have to be able to edit.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00] That doesn't work if you're doing an oral story, though.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_04] No, you can't. You can't erase. Yeah.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00] No, but they have their own place, and they're really cool. I always referred to him as kind of the Mark Twain of the 20th century, in a sense, just the stories that he told. Yeah. It was true Americana in a lot of ways.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00] But anyway, so the other thing that I would ask is that you lived in various places, and you kind of viewed yourself as a cultural outsider, I think, having lived in Germany and India and so on.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00] How did understanding your own story help you find your footing? And what did you understand that really brought that to bear?

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So when I was in fifth and sixth grade, we lived in Germany, and that was hard to move from Montgomery, Alabama to Germany. We lived on the economy, which just means a German neighborhood, but I went to an American school. But everyone there was moving constantly, and you just have to reconnect all the time. So what that taught me is looking for the common ground.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_04] I think now we've gotten a little bit away from that, where we're so focused on how we're different that we forget there's a lot that we have in common. And I was married when we moved to India, and I remember my ex-husband coming home and saying, I think we're going to move to India. And I leaned on that experience of having lived in Germany and thought, okay, there are nice people everywhere. There are interesting experiences everywhere, and it's going to be an adventure.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_04] And I met this wonderful blogger named Baye McNeil, and he is a Black man living in Japan. And there's a lot of challenges being a tall Black man living in Japan. And he told me, don't have any expectations. Just accept where you are and what is happening as the way it is. And that was the best advice I ever got because it is so different.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_04] India is so different from the United States. And it's beautiful and magical, but it's also hard. And I just really tried to say, don't put my pressure on India. Just embrace India. And when I moved to West Virginia, that was a big difference from Northern Virginia. It's a whole different world. And people have lived here a very long time.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_04] And they have their families and their rituals and their groups already. So it was a little bit hard to break in. And in fact, I think West Virginia, it took me the longest to make friends in West Virginia, but it's taken me anywhere. But it's all focusing on what we have in common.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00] I've lived in a variety of places in the U.S. I've never lived outside the U.S. other than visiting. But I have at least seen so many different environments. And every place is different. And I just decided early on to have fun. And accept it all. But, you know, things happen. So, for example, when we moved to New Jersey, my wife and I from California,

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00] for a while before our house was ready, we lived in a... Well, we lived in Elizabeth, New Jersey. But for a little while, we lived in a hotel, a Holiday Inn in Springfield. And we met someone there who was one of the people who... The maids who helped keep the hotels clean and all that. And she also... When we moved to Elizabeth for a few months in an apartment, she helped us. But Elizabeth and...

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00] Well, Springfield is like 10 miles from New York City. And this lady had never been to New York City. She had never traveled even 10 miles to go to the city. And I find that hard to imagine. But nevertheless, that was the way it was. And I had to accept it. But she had never been to New York City. And of course, where we lived in California, we were so used to driving hundreds of miles at times to do things.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_04] Right. Yeah. And I know tomorrow is your late wife's birthday. Or today? Tomorrow. Tomorrow. So happy... I'm not sure how to say that. Happy heavenly birthday to your wife. I'm sorry that you lost her.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I am too. But at the same time, the body slows down and hers did. And as I tell people, and I'm sure this is true in some sense, she's monitoring me from somewhere. And if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. My mom has definitely got an eye on me from up above. She's watching me all the time.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00] And as I tell people, I don't even chase the girls. And I also point out that they're not chasing me, so I don't have to worry. And that's all going to be... If anything were to ever happen, my wife has got to approve it. So that's okay.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00] No, it's great. I've got my guide dog and our cat that we've had now for over 11 years. And we rescued her. So she's about 16, we think. And what a great kitty. But yeah, I'm sure Karen is monitoring from somewhere. And I appreciate your thoughts. And thank you very much.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. No, it's hard when people... I guess on the other side, we miss them so much. I miss my mom like crazy. And she died five and a half years ago. So...

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00] But you know, as I tell people, I don't move on from Karen, but I move forward because I don't want to move on and forget her. But I will move forward. Right. Because she's going to be part of my life and always will be. We were married 40 years. Wonderful memories. And so it's great.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_04] Wow. What a great long marriage. Yeah. Not a lot of people can say that.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00] Well, and we had our challenges when we moved to New Jersey. She didn't want to move. And I think that it got... Well, it did. It got real testy for a while. But she did. And she moved there and made a wonderful home for her. She made friends. She was a quilter and started... Got a quilting guild together and just had a lot of fun. So it all worked out.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00] But she always wanted to move back to California. And it took terrorists attacking the World Trade Center to get us back to California. But you know, those things happen and we moved back.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. That was a scary day for you. Amazing. Amazing.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00] It was a scary and challenging day for everyone. I think the biggest thing is we didn't know what was going to happen when we discovered what was occurring.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00] I remember we were in a little restaurant at about quarter to 12. And suddenly we heard aircraft outside. And people ran out not knowing what was going on. And then somebody yelled, it's okay. It's our guys. We have the skies. You know, so we were very pleased about that. But we walked up toward Midtown Manhattan. And one of the things that we didn't want to do was to cross one of the bridges and go over into New Jersey.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00] The friend I was with said, you know, you don't know whether they might have the bridges bombed. You know? Well, I wasn't in so much fear as he was. But I understand what he was saying. And you just don't know.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. The dominoes can fall, right? Like, you just don't know. They can.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00] Well, you've lived in a number of different places. How do you find common ground to be able to move forward wherever you're living?

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_04] Well, I think you have to first put yourself out there. So when I moved back from Germany, that was a hard move because I was in seventh grade. And I was moving to a small town in Georgia, a smallish town in Georgia, Columbus, Georgia, where people literally went to the same elementary school their grandparents had gone to. And lived on the same street with their relatives. And my mom was divorced. And that wasn't that common.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_04] And we lived in the townhouses, not in a house. So I really felt like an outsider. But there were some other kids who had divorced parents. And we kind of clicked with each other. And, of course, you know, everyone is friendly. But there's a difference between being friendly and being friends. And, unfortunately, my birthday was very close to the girl who ended up becoming our homecoming queen, who's a lovely human being. But everyone wanted to be at her birthday party.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_04] So there were some challenges. But, you know, I ended up getting very involved in activities. I just figured, you know, I'll join the activities that matter to me. And I ended up being the first female president of the student government at Hardaway High School. And when I moved to West Virginia, I immediately started looking for a book club. And that was a great way to meet some people who had common interests.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_04] And then I joined the Chamber of Commerce, which has been a lifesaver. Because I've really, as a storyteller, gotten integrated into the business community, which I never imagined would happen. But in April, I'm going to the West Virginia entrepreneurial ecosystem. And I'm teaching a workshop on how to incorporate stories into your pitch decks when you're trying to get money from investors.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02] Right.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_04] So I think that's part of what you said. Have fun. I think along the same lines is just be open to the possibilities. Like, don't count yourself out of something. Let other people decide, no. You don't have to self-select and eliminate possibilities for yourself. You never know where you might end up.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00] All too often, we put limitations on ourselves way too much. Way too much. And I think that's so unfortunate. As I tell, you know, I think you and I talked about it when we did our introductory call. I believe everyone has stories to tell. And I'm always looking for people who want to come on Unstoppable Mindset and tell their story. But so many people say, I don't have an interesting story. You don't know what's interesting.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00] And don't assume just because you don't think it's interesting that it isn't. And most people, when they come on to podcast as guests, end up really having a good time anyway, which is what it's all about. Yeah.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Well, we take for granted that our stories are so normal for us, right? And this is what a lot of kids run into when they're writing their college application essays. They're like, oh, that's not interesting. I'm like, to you, because you live it. But other people haven't lived it. So yes, it is. It's very interesting.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And I think somewhere along the line, I kind of learned that. And so when I was in college and beyond, I write and I've written articles. And I remember being in an English class in college. And our teacher asked us all to write something. And I'm trying to remember what the topic was. I think she wanted us to just write something about our lives.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00] And I went off to my dorm, sat down in front of my typewriter. And what I wrote was a letter that my guide dog, Squire, wrote to me about something that happened in our lives. And she loved it. The teacher loved it. It was great. Mrs. White really. Was it White? Now I don't remember. Loved it. But it was different.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00] And I don't ever mind being a little bit different, which I am anyway. People say you're different because you're blind. Well, you know, you're different because you're sighted. So give me a break. Right. But the reality is that we all have different things in our lives. And we shouldn't, as you point out, we shouldn't assume that just because something doesn't seem relevant to us that it might not very well be, might be very relevant to other people.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_04] Right. That's exactly right. I had one of my students just this past season wrote a story about how much he loves ketchup. And you wouldn't think that that would make a good college application essay. It was hilarious. It showed exactly who he was. There were some pain points in it because his friends didn't understand why he loved ketchup so much.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_04] And when I told one of the questions I asked students is, what do you think is weird that what do you love that other people think is weird? And he said ketchup because he puts it on everything. Gingerbread cookies. He puts ketchup on gingerbread cookies. And he got so excited when he realized that he could write about that. And it was a fantastic essay. And he had so much fun writing it. And I had so much fun reading it.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_04] It was really a cool thing to see the 17-year-old young man understand that a story about ketchup is good enough for a college application essay.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00] And it worked?

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00] I remember during the Richard Nixon era, as president, he said that ketchup was a vegetable. And I think a lot of us disagreed with that.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03] But I could get behind that.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00] I understand the concept. But I'm not ready to say that it's a vegetable. Of course, I don't like raw tomatoes. So I say that the only good raw tomato was in ketchup anyway. But that's okay.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_04] Well, and I guess technically tomatoes are a fruit, not a vegetable.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00] That is also true, that they're really a fruit. Yeah. What do you do?

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00] Ah, life. Yeah. So you stayed home with your kids. And you did a lot of things. You created haunted houses and so on. And two businesses. What businesses did you create?

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So Make My Essay Better is the college application essay business. And I also had a reason to write, which is the genesis of what my writing retreat is now. But it was handmade stationery and invitations. And I would go to craft shows and I'd make a bunch of cards in advance and sell packs of cards, but also take special orders. And it was in the era of scrapbooking when scrapbooking was crazy, crazy. So there were so many materials. It was so much fun.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_04] And it was just a wonderful way to have a creative outlet that I could still do with my kids. They would make cards and play with the paper as well. And then I also took up the hobby of photography, which turned out to be really a wonderful thing because my kids were all very involved in sports. And I was able to take some pretty great pictures of them doing the things that they loved. So that was really fun too.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00] Did you turn any of those into stories? Any of those pictures?

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, no, I haven't. But you've given me an idea. I'm going to have to think about that. I try not to write about my kids too much. They don't like that. Write about them. But yeah, but I could fictionalize it. That would be fun.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00] Something to think about. Yeah. And you never know. You may write it in such a way that they'll like reading it and they'll say, that's great. Yeah. You have to just think about it.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. No, it's definitely something to think about.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00] So as you traveled around and being a military brat and all that, how did you find the common areas of connection with people wherever you went?

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I think what we did was just put ourselves out there. So in Germany, there was a youth club and I would go to the youth club. I love to dance and we would dance and I would meet people who also like to dance. And we did something called Volksmarches, which I'm not sure if they still do them, but they're basically five and 10 kilometer hikes. And so they were on Saturdays and you'd get a cool medal when they were done.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_04] So we would go and we'd meet people who also like to walk along the beautiful German countryside. I, as an English major, I was actually pretty good at math. So I joined the math club and just different things like that. Bowling. I love bowling. So.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00] Did you learn German?

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_04] You know, it's interesting because we did live in a German neighborhood, but all the kids were practicing English. So they really wanted to learn English. So I was more. Speaking more English than German. Unfortunately, I regret that. I did take Hindi lessons when I was in India, but I didn't take them long enough for it to stick. But I do think there's value in learning the language of a country when you're living there.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00] And especially if you can do it when you're younger, we, we tend to do a better job of generally learning languages when we're younger than when we get older.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00] But it's, it's still a lot of fun. So you'll have to learn more German and write a German blog.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Oh no. I'll leave that to the Germans.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00] So you, you, you definitely in moving around and telling a lot of stories. What is it about being displaced that helps us see our own stories more completely and really?

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I think holding the lens up to something that we don't understand helps us ground ourselves in what we do, if that makes sense. Like India, for example, it's just a completely different way of life. And it reinforced the things that are important to me and helped me expand

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04] things I didn't know about and, and open my mind to new experiences. But it was very hard to move across the globe because my family is very important to me and my family is small. So I didn't get to see a lot of my family and I was taking them for granted. So when I came back, I was more focused on spending time with, you know, my dad and my stepmother, my mom and my brothers.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_04] And, um, I think when we're just out of our comfort zone, we get that tilt that lets us just see things a little bit differently and helps us understand ourselves, but also helps us understand the world. I think there's nothing like traveling to make people more empathetic and connected.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00] Why do you think that?

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_04] It's really easy to have judgment from a distance, but when you're there and you see how it works, like every country, every neighborhood, every community has its own way of working. And from the outside looking in, it cannot make sense. But when you're there and you talk to people who are living it, it makes a lot more sense.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_04] And we don't, we just don't need to have judgment about so many things that we do because we don't really understand them. That's all judgment is. It's a lack of understanding.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00] How do we break through that barrier? I agree with you. And I think we, we judge and we're so prejudiced about so many things that we don't have any knowledge about. How do we get people to recognize that and get them to maybe step back and observe more?

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I think recognizing what we're afraid of, like what we're afraid of losing. And most of the time, that's not a real thing. We're not really going to, if this group is allowed to do this thing, we're not really going to lose anything. They're just doing this other thing. And I think telling stories. And I think instead of having a judgment about it, go sit down and have a cup of coffee and listen to that person's story.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_04] I think stories are the way to understanding personal, personal stories.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00] You know, you're writing fiction, but have you thought yet about writing a memoir, really talking about your life and all the things that you've discovered and passing some of that on through telling stories in a book?

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_04] Well, my blog was kind of that. I really tried to come at it very neutrally. Like, this is what happened, not here's how you should feel about it and let people have their own takeaways from it. But maybe, maybe one day. I want to get my novel. My novel is just like so important to me. And I want to see that out in the world.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_04] But maybe after that.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00] So what can you tell us at this point about the novel?

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_04] So it's called In the Dust of Elephants. And it's a very long time ago in Asia. And it's about a boy and a girl who are raised as twins. And the girl gets very, very sick. And traditional medicine is not helping her. And so the brother sets out on a path to find a cure for her. And there's a myth that the tusk of an elephant has healing powers.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_04] So he tries to get an elephant tusk to try and heal her as a last ditch effort. And in some ways, it's not informed by my life at all. But my brother certainly has influenced this big brother character who's going to try and take care of his sister. But yeah. So that's In the Dust of Elephants. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00] I don't want you to give anything away. But I'm just going to say, I hope at least there's a happy ending. But anyway, that's another story.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03] We'll see. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00] The characters haven't written it yet.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_04] No, the ending is done.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, the ending is done. Okay. Well, all right. Well, I will find out when the novel comes out. But nevertheless, so you've had different challenges in your life. You've had betrayals and so on. How do you jump out of that? How do you get beyond that and begin writing a new story or continuing the story that you started?

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Um, so I was married for 30 years. I found out 27 years in that my husband had been unfaithful and I tried to restart that. And we, I thought we were working on it together. And 30 years in, I found out, no, he wasn't really working that hard on that. And, um, we got divorced and it was a bring me to my knees moment.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_04] I got through every day. I did the dishes. I did laundry. I, you know, talked to a couple of friends, but I didn't get a lot more than that accomplished. And I think sometimes we just have to be patient with ourselves and understand that hard things are really, really hard. I thought 30 years of my life had been a lie and that's not exactly true, but it wasn't what I thought it was.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_04] And, um, and so a lot of deep breaths and just doing the next thing. A lot of times I just do the next thing. And finally, slowly I came out of the fog and I started getting energetic again about my passions. And I just had to decide how much more of my life I was going to give to that pain. And, you know, I'm almost 58.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_04] I don't want to spend the next, you know, hopefully knock on wood 30 years in agony about something that's already in the past. Um, and that's easier said than done, but a lot of therapy, a lot of grace for myself. Um, you know, of course I had all the questions that probably everyone would have. How did I not know? How did he hide this for me? Um, was I the reason he was doing this? What could I have done differently?

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_04] How are my kids going to suffer because of this? Will they ever trust? Will I ever trust? Um, but it's, I I've heard people say grief. It's not linear. And I, I really appreciate that because. You know, in those moments when you have momentum, grab hold of it and embrace it. And in those moments when you just want to sit on the floor and just. Cry, sit on the floor and cry.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_04] And eventually you'll have more moments with momentum than you have sitting on the floor. And. It's, it's just, you know, one step at a time.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00] I know that on September 11th, one of the lessons that I really learned is don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on the things that you can and the rest will take care of itself. And anybody who reads Thunderdog will, we'll see the story of where that came from. But the reality is, although it, it may seem hard. The fact is like in your case, you didn't have control over what your, your husband was doing. Right. And, and you, you eventually process didn't work through it.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00] I know that when Karen and I moved to New Jersey, and as I mentioned earlier, it was a little bit of a challenge because she didn't really want to. But I also knew that either we moved or I would have to go seeking a new job. And the unemployment rate among employable blind people then, and pretty much like now, is in the neighborhood of 70%. So finding a job is not a trivial thing to do. And I didn't want to fight that fight.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00] If it ultimately came down to it, and she said, if we're going to go to New Jersey, I'm not going to go. Then I would have had to reevaluate because I think she, and should, she should come first and did come first. But fortunately it didn't, I guess. And things happened that, that happened. But we all really have so many challenges and we worry about so many things that we don't truly have any control over.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00] And we need to move beyond that and recognize, okay, something occurred, but I didn't have any control over it. So I'm not going to accept the blame for that.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_04] Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, um, I don't know if you and I talked about this or not, but my mom, God lover was an alcoholic and, you know, as a teenager and being the only child living in that house, that was a really hard thing to grapple with. But it did, I did join Al-Anon. I had a wonderful teacher who put me in touch with Al-Anon and it really taught me that her drinking had nothing to do with me.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_04] And so in that, in a crazy, crazy way that prepared me for understanding that my ex-husband's behavior wasn't mine to own. And there are wonderful support groups for people in that situation. In fact, I don't know if I've shared this either, but I'm applying to PhD programs and my, my dissertation will be a novel about that betrayal.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_04] It will not be a memoir. It will not be my story. It'll be informed by my story, but I wish so much that I'd had a way to softly enter that world and understand that world and have a little bit more compassion. Because my ex-husband's journey was devastating to me and my family, but it was also very hard on him. And he should have been more accountable. He could have been more accountable.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_04] He could have behaved better, but there was something inside him that didn't let him do that. And I don't have to accept it. I don't have to approve of it, but I can at least acknowledge that it was hard for everybody. And that took me a long time to come to. But my mom, my mom being in my life, though, in the way that she was helped me understand that more than one thing can be true at a time.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_00] And my wife never had to go through anything like that. We, we both made a commitment when we got married and we stuck to it.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_03] And I thought we did too.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00] No, I understand.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_03] I understand. I did. I did. I did. I will say I did.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Well, and both of us did. And I can say that absolutely never even had an interest in exploring any other kind of relationship because I had a wonderful person. And as I love to tell people, God blessed our marriage anyway, because we got married. And on the Saturday we got married. The church didn't fill up until about 15 minutes after the wedding was supposed to start.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00] It turns out everybody was outside waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, that's funny.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_00] Because Karen was a USC. She, she did her master's work at USC. But, you know, a lot of people were waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game, which was such a big rivalry. And since USC beat the snot out of Notre Dame, God clearly was on our side.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_04] He was on your side. No, you know. No. And, and again, with, you know, more than one thing can be true at a time, my husband's behavior was deplorable. But he and I were very good parents together. We were very good friends. There were a lot of good things about that relationship that it was hard to lose it all at once. And I didn't just lose my husband, which I had already lost. I didn't know, but I lost my best friend.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_04] I lost family get togethers. I lost, you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard. And it's complicated. And I, I hope to write a story that will help people who are in that situation touch it from a distance. Yeah. And, and, and, and maybe even like, you know, their friends can read it and understand what they're going through and not, and not be so judgmental. Like, oh, this is really complicated.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_04] It's not black and white. It's complicated.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00] You know, when COVID hit, we, we locked down. We deliberately, well, we had to anyway, but we deliberately locked down, especially because Karen being in a chair and just in general had more of a likelihood if she got ill of it being much more of a problem than it would have been for me.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00] But we had so much fun having conversations, which we always like to do anyway, but being completely locked down and not traveling or anything like that. It was a blessing for us, even though it was the last three years of her life, 2020, 2021 and 2022. But we got to, to become, I think, even in, in ways closer than we otherwise were, which was, which was great, but we worked at it. And, and I think that's, that's the key.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00] And so I'm, I'm sorry that, that you had to go through all of that, but you seem to be finding ways to find light at the end of the tunnel, if you will.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, no, there's definitely light at the end of the tunnel. And I also had all of my children home during COVID, which was magic because they were adults at that point. I would have never had that time. And of course I don't wish COVID to ever happen again, but finding those glimmers is what gets you through the hard things. I mean, we sat around every morning and I don't drink coffee, but they would have a cup of coffee and we would laugh and we'd play games.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_04] And, you know, we were lucky. We lived in a sizable house. We all had a room to go to when we got tired of each other and lots of walking spaces outside, but yeah, I think it's, it's, you know, you, you choose what you focus on. And you have to deal with the hard things. They're not going to just go away because you don't want to focus on them, but you don't have to always focus on them.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And that's what I, and it's hard work sometimes because those gut wrenching moments will put you on your knees, but you can get up off your knees and the sun is out and, you know, friends are important. And there's nothing like a good piece of cheesecake and, you know, a glass of wine and just taking a deep breath can sometimes change your whole perspective.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00] I think that it's, it's so important to have a sense of humor in life. I think that life is an adventure. We should all really approach it as an adventure, but I also think that it's important to have a sense of humor as you go through life. And laughing is such an important thing that all too often we find people taking the world too seriously and they don't laugh. I remember it was early in COVID.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_00] We went, we had to go to the bank and deposit something. And so I was just going to go in and do it. And I didn't even take my guide dog. I used my white cane. And of course we all had to be masked, right? So picture the scene. I go into a bank, wearing a mask, carrying my white cane. I go up to the desk, to the counter where the, where the, the teller was. And she said, hello.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00] And I think they knew who I was, but even though I had a mask on and I said, I got to start by asking you a question. Don't you think it's kind of strange that now someone wearing a mask can go into a bank, walk up to the teller. And then I lifted up my cane and, and I said, and then say, this is a stick up. And she just, she busted up. In fact, the manager came over and he said, we have not had such a good laugh all day.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And I think that we need to do more of that. I think that we take way too many things too seriously. And it's so unfortunate that we do because there can be very serious things, but we need to look at the, the lighter side of anything that goes on in our lives. And we just don't do enough of that, which is so unfortunate.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I, I totally agree. I was feeling kind of funky in December. I had been dating someone and we broke up and my kids were going back home and I was just feeling kind of funky. And so I went online and I bought tickets to four or five different comedy shows. And I went to some of them by myself because you can sit in a room by yourself and know who cares? Nobody cares.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_04] You know, that spotlight effect where we think everyone's paying attention to what we're doing and nobody gives a rat's butt about what we're doing. And, and I just put myself in a position to laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. And I'm feeling better and it's magic. It's magic to laugh like that. I totally agree.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Why do you think it's important for entrepreneurs to have stories as part of what they do in their pitch decks and so on?

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00] And by the way, I'm going to tell you upfront, I agree with you, but I want to hear what you have to say.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_04] I know it's important because I'll give you an example. There was a young, I was a judge at a entrepreneurial contest and there was a young lady who made blankets. She knitted blankets and she was asking for funding to help buy yarn and all this stuff. And she, you know, she talked about the production and she had a bunch of numbers up on the screen and, and everyone was kind of like, I mean, it's interesting, but she would go into vets, veterans hospitals and giving out blankets.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_04] And it's like, but the hospitals already have blankets. Like, so when it came time for the judges to ask, ask questions, I said to her, why does this matter to you? Like why you're 17? Why do you care about giving blankets to vets in the hospital? And she goes, well, my mom's a vet. And when I was little, I would go with her to the hospital and my grandmother had knitted a blanket for her and she would take it. And when the doctor was talking to her, she would rub the edges of the blanket to calm down.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_04] And I'm like, okay, that you should have started with that because that's, that's so powerful. And it makes me believe that you're committed to this. And I understand now why a 17 year old would care about giving blankets to army vets.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_04] And, and it makes me understand that this is sustainable because you have a passion. It's not just, this is a nice thing to do, but you're passionate about it. And we see the impact of it. And in that way, we understand why it matters, not just to you, but to the larger world.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And you're right. You've got to start with something that will, will draw people in, but do it because it's, it's part of the story and, and the right thing to do. Um, but you also do have to be strategic and making sure that when you're telling a story that you really are working to draw people in because that's what it's about. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So everyone, I think does have a story. And I think we've, we both agree on that.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00] Can you give me an example of someone who didn't think they have a story that you helped realize had a story to tell?

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_04] The kid with the ketchup essay. He really did not think he had anything to tell a lot of, um, a lot of high school students who are applying to college are very intimidated by that essay because they don't think they've done something big enough. And my answer to them is you have not lived 17 years and nothing good has happened like that. There's just no way that that's true.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_04] And the way that I helped them hone down on their story and some people forget the story can be a five minute moment. It does not have to be a big, you know, explosion of a story. It can just be a very small moment. And the way I tell them to think about it is when is a moment when you stopped and you went, huh? Okay. I see the world a little bit differently now. I understand things differently.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_04] And that's the power of a story.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_00] I think that's definitely part of it. The other part of it is that stories really, when, when they're told well and so on. And I think it's definitely true for entrepreneurs as well. But when stories are told, um, they also make it more personal. And you get to know people in a way that no other method of interacting is going to bring.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_00] And stories are so important for people developing ways to develop personal relationships. Having been in sales for a long time. I have always believed that the best salespeople have stories to tell. And the stories that they have to tell when they're selling products are about their experiences and other people's experiences dealing with products and what worked and what didn't work. But by telling a story, you make it personal in ways that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_04] Right. And the more specific, oddly, the more universal it becomes. Like that girl telling us about her mother being in the hospital, we could imagine our own mothers, our own, the vets that we know. We could imagine them sitting there and getting scary news in a way that we wouldn't have done otherwise without hearing about her mom.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_04] And it's kind of counterintuitive, but the more specific you get, the more connected it is.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. What would you say to someone who says, oh, I don't have a story to tell. I'm not a writer. What would you say to them to help them find out why there's a reason that they should be writing or telling stories?

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. A lot of people say, I'm not a good writer. And I say, but when you sit around the dinner table, you're probably telling stories about what happened in your day. Right. Well, yeah, of course. And when you're with your friends, you're telling stories about what happened. Right. Well, yeah. Well, then you're a storyteller. So don't think of it as writing. Think of it as storytelling. And, you know, not everyone is meant to write their story and capture it, but everyone does have a story worth capturing.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_04] So they have to decide how important it is to them. And if it's important to them, they should absolutely do it. And they can. They can absolutely do it.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00] I've seen that so many times on this podcast. People will say to me, well, my story isn't really interesting compared to yours or other people's and so on. So I don't know why it would be relevant for me to come on the podcast. And I said, and I say to them, because you have a story to tell. The fact is you have succeeded. You have done something. It doesn't matter whether other people have done it or not. The fact is that you did it.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00] And if you can talk about it, what you're able to do is to show other people, even if they've experienced some of the same things, if you've succeeded in the long run at doing something, telling people that is going to remind them that they're just as unstoppable as you.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_00] And you may not think of yourself as unstoppable, but the very success that you had, the very things that brought you to the point of us talking are the kinds of things that other people need to realize as well.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_04] Right. And isn't that funny? Here you are a podcast host with over 400 episodes, over 30,000 listeners, and you're telling someone your story is valuable and they're arguing with you. You're an expert. And they're saying, no, no, my story is not important. And you're saying, yes, it is. Like sometimes we just have to trust the universe is putting us where we need to be.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_00] And I work at getting people to come on. And more often than not, fortunately, they do. And then when we're done, they say that was a lot of fun. And I said, and people are going to appreciate what you had to say.

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_04] Well, and you're a wonderful host that makes people very comfortable and makes conversation very easy. So you're very good at what you do. So this is a safe place. And that's the other thing. Finding safe spaces to explore is really important.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. You know, people ask me, what's your audience like? What's the podcast about? And it's hard to get people to understand. In this case, we don't have an agenda. It's your story. Yeah. And people will be interested in your story, whatever it happens to be. Well, with your writer's retreats and all the things that you're doing, if people want to reach out to you, maybe get some guidance or come to retreats and so on. How do they find you?

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. The very best thing to do is go to areason2write.com. I'm holding up my coffee mug that says areason2write.com. There you go. And I do have a website, ellenwaren.com. But A Reason to Write is the very best place. Everything is there. All the workshops, all the retreat space, everything is there.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_00] Areason2write.com.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_04] And I would love to hear from people.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_00] Great. Well, I hope people will reach out. areason2write.com. But it doesn't get easier than that.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_04] That's right.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank all of you for being out there and listening and watching us today. Wherever you are, we'd love to hear from you. Please give us a review. We love reviews about the podcast because people want to hear what others say before they oftentimes will decide to listen to or watch a podcast. So please give us a review. If you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you, including if you happen to

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_00] know of anyone who wants to come on a podcast or if you'd like to come on, we'd love to have you. If you haven't been on Unstoppable Mindset yet, you can email me at speaker at Michael Hingson, M-I-C-H-A-E-L-H-I-N-G-S-O-N dot com. Love to hear from you and interact. And I will tell you, as I've said, and as I think you should get the message by now, I think everybody has a story to tell.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_00] And I hope you will want to come on our podcast and tell your story. But in the meanwhile, Ellen, this has been absolutely wonderful.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you so much.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_00] And we hope that you'll be on again.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_04] I hope so too. Thank you, Michael, very much.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael Hinkson dot com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_00] It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00] Keep questioning. And keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.