Episode 487 – Autism and Identity: An Unstoppable Journey to Self-Acceptance with Yenn Purkis

Being different doesn't mean being less capable. It often means seeing the world in ways others don't understand. I had the pleasure of speaking with Yenn Purkis, an autistic, ADHD, non-binary advocate and author who has turned personal challenges into a powerful voice for disability rights and neurodiversity. Yenn shares their journey through school bullying, mental health struggles, schizophrenia, and learning to accept their identity. We explore autism acceptance, the importance of self-advocacy, and why society's attitudes often create greater barriers than disabilities themselves. With 18 published books and new PhD research focused on autism and employment, Yenn continues to challenge stereotypes and create opportunities for others. Our conversation is a reminder that everyone deserves respect, understanding, and the freedom to define who they are.

Highlights:

0:59 - How Yenn's personal struggles became a mission to help others.

7:15 - Why identity-first language matters in autism and disability advocacy.

12:58 - The truth about schizophrenia and the stigma surrounding mental illness.

19:20 - How school bullying shaped Yenn's journey toward autism acceptance.

29:17 - How research into autism and employment could improve opportunities.

45:34 - Why mentorship and positive role models matter for people with disabilities.

About the Guest:

Yenn Purkis is an Autistic and ADHD, non-binary, Asexual advocate and author. They also have a diagnosis of atypical schizophrenia and anxiety. Yenn has been a disability advocate since 2005 when their first book, the autobiography Finding a Different kind of Normal, was accepted for publication. Yenn has worked as the Deputy CEO, External Relations, in the Disability Leadership Institute as well as being the accessibility manager for Rebus Theatre. They also have a number of clients that they work with as a peer mentor through the National Disability Insurance Scheme.

Yenn is a prolific author, having written or co-authored 18 published books, all of which are about different topics of interest to autistic people and those who love and care for them. Yenn has a further two books under contract, both aimed at autistic children. Yenn has also contributed to ten other publications.

Yenn has been giving keynote presentations on a large range of topics for over 20 years all over the world. They love taking to the stage and have spoken for TEDx Canberra twice – once in 2013 and once in 2023.

In addition to keynote presentations, Yenn has spoken in many forums and formats including as a panellist and as part of events and conferences in breakout sessions. Yenn has spoken for a large number of Australian state and federal government departments and agencies, for disability organisations, employers and businesses. Yenn has hosted webinars and had a regular podcast program as well as a radio show called Talking Disability on Canberra Radio 2CC which ran for two years. Yenn is considered to be a leading influencer in the autism / neurodivergent community. They are highly sought after as a speaker and writer.

Yenn also works in academic research and is currently working a as the co-director for a research project with at the Olga Tennison Autism Research Centre looking at the relationship between autism, entrepreneurship and wellbeing. Yenn has recently enrolled as a PhD candidate at the University of Wollongong. Their PhD research project will look at autism and employment and determinants of wellbeing.

Ways to connect with Yenn**:**

Website - www.yennpurkis.com 

Facebook page - Yenn Purkis Neurodiversty Page - https://www.facebook.com/yennpurkisbooks 

Facebook profile - Yenn Purkis Âû - https://www.facebook.com/jeanette.purkis.9/ 

LinkedIn - Yenn Purkis

Instagram - yennpurkis5 - https://www.instagram.com/direct/t/17846606435718445/

About the Host:

Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.com

https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/

https://twitter.com/mhingson

https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson 00:04

What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. I am your host Michael Hingson, and today we get to chat with Yenn Purkis. Who is Yenn Purkis? Well, that's a good question. I can tell you that Yenn Purkis is an autistic, ADHD, non-binary, a sexual advocate, an author, and she all and they, you do go by they. I want to hear about that. I do. Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to understand more about that. They also have a diagnosis diagnosis of atypical schizophrenia. My gosh, you just got a lot going on. That must mean that you just want people to pay attention to you, right? So welcome to welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. Yeah, go ahead.

Yenn Purkis 01:46

Thank you so much. I'm not sure that I want people to pay attention to me. I have a number of challenges that I have to overcome, and hopefully, me being able to do that helps other people in similar situations. I always say my work is for my 15-year-old self. So all the things I do are to support that person who is having a really tough time. And if it helps anyone else, well, that's great. But yeah, my work tends to be aimed at you know my 15-year-old self. It's sort of I like looking at it that way, I guess.

Michael Hingson 02:18

Well, so since we talked about terminology a little bit, why they as opposed to she? So and I'm not in any way arguing. I'm just very curious.

Yenn Purkis 02:32

Oh, good. So I was born female. I was a she, absolutely. But it never seemed to quite work, and my old name never seemed to quite work, and I always felt like I was something else. So when I was a kid, I grew up in England, and in England, as soon as the temperature gets above 20 degrees Celsius, all the guys take off their shirts. And so I was eight years old. I didn't have any boobs. It's hot day. Took off my shirt. Got in no end of trouble because girls don't take off their shirts, and I'm like, but there's nothing there to look at. But that was my sort of attitude around gender. Was that I didn't quite? It didn't none of it worked for me when I was 20. I shaved all my hair off, which was pretty cool. But once again, people thought that was a little bit odd. I identified as a lesbian for a long time, attracted to women. I wasn't really. I'm asexual, so I have no interest in in sexual activity. I only have partners because I thought I should. You were meant to, and for me, women were slightly less icky than men. So therefore, I must have been lesbian. There were no other options back then. I'm 51, and and with gender, it just never worked. I never felt girly. I never felt blokey. If people asked me what my gender was, I'd say no. I don't have one because I didn't have any association with gender as it applied to me. I didn't feel like a girl. I didn't feel like a boy. I didn't feel like anything. So when I came across the idea of non-binary in about 2017, because that was sort of when it first became a thing, at least in Australia, I thought, oh, that sounds like me. And so I put out some feelers that the best one. So I was up at a conference in Perth in Western Australia, and I was one of the keynotes, and it's lovely. And then we had like drinks and nibbles after the conference. And so I'm having a glass of wine, and I'm talking to this person. And I said to them, I have no idea where this came from. I said, I think I'm non-binary and asexual. And this person said, Yes, I think I am too. So my first effort at coming out was not only greeted with support and encouragement, it was greeted with someone who had the same experience as me, so I officially came out as non-binary the next year in 2018, and I changed my name to Yenn in 2019. So I changed it unofficially in February 2019, and then by May I decided, yeah, I want this to be my actual. Name so I'm legally known as Yenn. That's my official name. If anyone says, "Oh, is that your real name?" I'm like, "Yes, I have a certificate to prove it." But it's a challenge being, you know, having a diverse gender can be a challenge. There's a lot of people out there that don't like me because of it, and only because of it, not because they don't like my personality, but because they don't like my gender, which seems a bit weird to me. There's a hell of a lot of bigotry out there, which there shouldn't be. Bigotry around anything is not okay, but it's it can be upsetting. But yeah, that's that's that.

Michael Hingson 05:36

It's not my position to judge. Fine with me, and I know I I like the name Yenn. That's pretty clever. Now, where did you come up with Yen?

Yenn Purkis 05:46

So I have my old name, and I will say my old name. I don't normally say my old name because don't like it. But it was Jeanette. That didn't suit me at all on any level. I was never a Jeanette. That was not me. And when I say it now, it feels weird. So I came out as non-binary in 2018, and I realized that my name was quite feminine gendered. You know, any name in English that has the double t e on the end is is generally a fairly feminine name, and it also had absolutely I'd never felt like a genetic. It seemed really weird, and so I kept trying to figure out a name for myself, and none of them worked. And so I said, "Okay, I'm leaving this to the subconscious." We left it to the subconscious, and a couple of months later, when I was at work, I used to be a public servant, so I'm at work in the public service, and suddenly, as I was working, the word "yen" popped into my brain, and in half a second, I knew that that was my name, but I had to unpack it because there's obviously reason for it. And so, my understanding of what my subconscious was doing to yen in poetry, and I am a poet as well as a writer of other books, to yen in poetry is to yearn. And I do a lot of self reflection. I always joke that I've made a career from oversharing, and so that worked. It's also got some of the same letters as my old name in it, so it's sort of acknowledging history. And in Australia, at least, it's not a gendered name, so I can have that as a non-gendered name. Everyone loves it. People say, "Oh, I love your name." Where does it come from? Thank you.

Michael Hingson 07:21

And and as far as I'm concerned, it's always been and always will be Yin. That works for me.

Yenn Purkis 07:28

Thank you, Mediterranean. When I talk about myself in the past before I changed my name, I still use Yin because that it was me. I just didn't know it was me.

Michael Hingson 07:36

Yeah. Now, continuing with the terminology discussion a little bit. One of the things that you talk about is that you're autistic, and a lot of people talk about things with disabilities. And maybe the the third person when saying instead a person with autism, why do you choose to do the fact that you're autistic as opposed to a person with autism?

Yenn Purkis 08:01

Excellent question. That goes to a whole bunch of things, including the social model of disability, the human rights model of disability, viewing disability differently as not being you're broken, but as being society's broken and needs to change. With I am autistic, it's known as identity first language. The other one, I am a person with autism, is known as a person first language. And the number of well-meaning social workers and psychologists that have said to me over the years, "Oh, you shouldn't say you're autistic. You should say you're a person with autism," and I say, "No, my identity and everybody else's identity is their own, and it is a thing. Many, many autistic people use. I am autistic. It's not correct. Neither is correct or wrong. They're just different. But for me, I use that. I use identity first because autism is not something about myself that I can remove. It's not something I've acquired. It's part of who I've always been, and it's a huge part of what makes me who I am. And I don't necessarily see it as a negative thing. I could live without the anxiety. I'll tell you that, but most of it is just a different way of approaching the world. And I'm quite happy to be autistic. As I say. There's no one right way to identify. A lot of people in the deaf community also use capital D E A F rather than a person who is deaf or hard of hearing. So yeah, no, it's um, it's one of those things. Disability politics is one of my favorite topics. I struggle a bit because a lot of people are quite ignorant about disability politics. It's a bit of a cringe, but yeah, I've been in this space for over 20 years, so I know a little bit about it.

Michael Hingson 09:50

Well, I I find what you say very interesting as far as the whole issue about disabilities. My position, and I've talked about it over the past year or two. On this podcast is that every single person in the world has a disability. The disability has never, or should never, be viewed as a lack of ability. And all my diversity friends say, "Well, of course it is, because it starts with dis," and my response is, "Well, then what about discreet or discern or disciple? Is disciple a lack of iple? You know whatever that is. The bottom line is that everyone has a disability. For most people, and if we're going to add in another disability just to make your life more fun,

Yenn Purkis 10:33

yeah,

Michael Hingson 10:34

another disability you have, like most everyone on the planet, is your light dependent. If the if the lights go out and you don't have a smartphone or a flashlight nearby, you're in a generally a world of hurt because you can't function. That doesn't bother me, but

Yenn Purkis 10:51

I'm

Michael Hingson 10:52

constantly judged because I happen to be light independent, and there aren't as many of us by any standard of being light independent as there are light dependent people, but it doesn't change the fact that all disability is is a characteristic, and everyone has it, and it manifests itself differently for different

Yenn Purkis 11:10

people. Absolutely, I think it's a really good example. Can I borrow that? I'll quote you. No, that's really the one that I use. Is if you imagine if most of the people in the world used a wheelchair and someone didn't, well, that somebody would be bumping into door frames. They'd be having to lean over to talk to people. They'd really struggle, and they would be disabled by their lack of a wheelchair.

Michael Hingson 11:36

Yeah, that's another way some people would would view it. But I I like the the whole issue of light dependence because most people are and I do

Yenn Purkis 11:46

like this and

Michael Hingson 11:47

the story the story behind it I'll even send you an article that I wrote about it but the story is that I was in a hotel in 2023 it was a Saturday afternoon about three in the afternoon in Los Angeles, and my niece and nephew and I were coming downstairs, down the main staircase after putting our luggage in our room, and all of a sudden people started screaming, and I asked my niece, "What's going on?" And she said, "We just lost power and light in the hotel and around the hotel, and everyone's panicking because suddenly there isn't light. Now, of course, there's lots of light coming in through the windows and all that, but

Yenn Purkis 12:26

it

Michael Hingson 12:26

wasn't what they were used to, and so people panicked. It was just crazy. But the reality is, it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, as far as I'm concerned, that light dependence is as much a disability as light independence, and we really should

Yenn Purkis 12:40

not. I really like that. That's a great analogy.

Michael Hingson 12:45

So it, you know, it's there. But I appreciate what what you're saying, and all of the different kinds of of challenges that you face. So you've talked about, I guess, a lot of what you would call disabilities. What are your disabilities? I know you are you're autistic, and what else?

Yenn Purkis 13:07

Autistic ADHD. I have osteoarthritis. A bunch of other physical health issues. I have schizophrenia, and I have an anxiety disorder. So yeah, I got a few. I always figure I I got the wrong message, and I kept going to the back of the queue and picking up another one when I was supposed to just take one and walk away. But yeah, no, I got I got a bunch that it's just one of those things. I think a lot of people do.

Michael Hingson 13:36

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Tell me more about having schizophrenia and what what is involved with that and what that's all about.

Yenn Purkis 13:44

Yeah, so schizophrenia is very misunderstood. People think it's a split personality. It isn't. People think that psychosis is interchangeable with violence. It isn't. Most of your characters with schizophrenia in the popular culture are violent and dangerous, or highly vulnerable. So schizophrenia is a mental illness. It basically is characterized by a number of things, including psychosis. That's the most common thing. Psychosis is basically, to my mind, a waking nightmare. Nothing makes sense. Everything's terrified. You're confused, paranoid. You don't know what's going on. Lots of hallucinations and scary things, voices, visual stuff, and being completely disabled by that. And life is not possible when you're in that space. There's three sort of types or experiences of schizophrenia. One of them is somebody who has one episode of psychosis, takes meds for a year, and is then fine for the rest of their life. The other one is somebody who is takes medication and it makes no difference whatsoever, and they're chronically unwell their whole life. And then there's people like me who have episodes of illness, but. Covers and can live a reasonably normal life as long as they don't take their meds and things like that. I've had a number of episodes of psychosis in the past. They usually last from a month or two to six months. It absolutely derails your life. Happened twice when I was in the public service. I had to take six to eight months off work, and people really don't understand it. And if you say, I mean, especially psychosis, it's the most poorly understood mental health term of all of them. I think people do genuinely think, you know, a psychotic person is a dangerous person. I'm never dangerous when I'm unwell. I'm just terrified and extremely vulnerable, and I tend to end up in hospital when that happens. And so you have all this experience of hospitals and and accessing services. So I see the local mental health service. I take a drug called clozapine. So I've been on medication for over 30 years, and I have to take the medication. And the drug I'm on now is a really good drug, but it's very dangerous. So you have to get lots of monitoring in order to have it. In fact, if you don't get a blood test every month, they won't give you the script. It causes weight gain, so I'm overweight. Not because I eat unhealthy food; it makes life very challenging. I always say it's like a really good friend, but with a lot of issues attached. So I've not been unwell since I've been on clozapine, which is fantastic. And for me, high anxiety triggers the psychosis. I think it's about dopamine. I think psychosis is when there's too much dopamine, and so if I get really anxious, it triggers that off, and then I get really unwell, so whenever I get really anxious, I get really worried about being anxious because I know what it might result in. But people assume if you have schizophrenia that you can't do anything at all, that you won't be able to work, you won't be able to have relationship or family or anything like that. For some people, that is the case, but for others, it's not. For me, it's not. I'm very grateful that I'm able to live a really productive and interesting and rewarding life. Despite that, or maybe because of it, I'm not sure. I always used to say I'm autistic, but I'm a person with schizophrenia, which is an interesting distinction. And lately, I've been saying I'm schizophrenic because it is also part of who I am. The other issue is denial. So people with schizophrenia are notorious for thinking, "Oh, I'm well now. I can stop taking the meds." Now that's not mine. Mine is I never had the illness. It's a mistake. It's a misdiagnosis. As such, it's not true.

Yenn Purkis 17:38

Now that's really funny because being delusional is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia, so being in denial about it is actually a symptom of something I'm in denial about, which I think is a wonderful irony. But I'm getting there with the acceptance. I've had the diagnosis since 1995, and it took me a good, I don't know, 15 years to actually be anywhere near accepting that that was going on, which is very odd. And now I do accept it. Everyone, yeah, every clinician I've ever met says I have it. So,

Michael Hingson 18:14

so, so, what, what causes schizophrenia? Is it a genetic thing? Is it inherited, or, or what? It's

Yenn Purkis 18:22

complicated. It's complicated. Oh, good! I'm glad I asked

Michael Hingson 18:26

a complicated question.

Yenn Purkis 18:27

It's um, there is a genetic and an epigenetic factor. Sometimes it just happens. And for me, I think I had the genetic factor, but I also used to have a major problem with drugs. So using for most people using lots of marijuana or amphetamines or whatever, they can do it with no issues for their mental health. For me, that was not the case, and I spent a good year in 1995 self medicating with illicit drugs because I've been quite traumatized by an experience, and I got really unwell, and I had no idea, and I was homeless. Yeah, life was very scary, and I got really unwell, and I had no idea what was going on because it never happened before. And so for me, it was a combination of drug use and genetic factors. So I have a history of mental illness, but for some people, it just happens. And the age of onset is usually teens to early 20s. But I've known people in hospital that have got the diagnosis when they were 60. So it's unusual, but you can get the diagnosis at any age. If

Speaker 1 19:47

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Michael Hingson 20:19

So you've had lots of challenges. What was it like growing up when you were a child and going to school and all that, especially with with autism? When did you get diagnosed as having autism?

Yenn Purkis 20:32

I was diagnosed as thank you. I was diagnosed as autistic when I was 20. Oh yeah,

Michael Hingson 20:38

that's

Yenn Purkis 20:39

yeah. I was not. They didn't have the diagnosis as Asperger's, which we don't use anymore, but we used to, and it didn't exist as a diagnosis until the year that I was diagnosed. And I got told by the clinician that did the diagnosis that I fulfilled all of the DSM four criteria, which the DSM is the diagnostic manual for mental health things and neurological things, and yeah, I fulfilled all of the criteria, not some or most, but all. But school was a nightmare. So I'm extremely academic. I'm just starting my PhD at the moment, which is very exciting.

Michael Hingson 21:14

Congratulations!

Yenn Purkis 21:15

Thank you. I'm looking at autism employment and well-being. It's going to be epic, but yeah. So at school, I didn't know I was autistic, but I knew I was different because everybody, or not everyone, I'll qualify that. Not everybody hated me, but enough people hated me that made school very, very, very challenging. And and I tried to report the bullying, and the teachers would just be hopeless, and they'd say things like, "Oh, it's just boys being boys," or "Oh, they're just doing it because they like you," or "Oh, just go somewhere else." It's a schoolyard, not a country, and it was really challenging. And so I had a very odd relationship with school because academically, I was top of the year every year. I was top of the school at the end of year 12. You know, I was very much an academic person. I actually have a master's degree, and I've never studied for an exam in my life. So you know, academically, I'm fairly gifted, but at school, socially, I was very, very different to everyone else. And my life at school was very unpleasant. I went on the school bus every day because we lived out on a farm, and it took an hour to get into school, and there was no adult supervision, and it was as hell. And it traumatized me. Yeah, it really did for many, many years. And I'm still quite vulnerable to bullying now because they make it all about you, you know. They actually gaslight you and make you feel like you're the reason for the problem, but actually, you're not. It's them being horrible. But yeah, so school is interesting. I often wonder, had I had a diagnosis at a younger age, what my life would have looked like then. I tend to think it would have been better in some respects, but I would have been less independent, so I wouldn't have. I mean, I moved out of home when I was 17. That would not have happened had I had a diagnosis. So, who knows? You know,

Michael Hingson 23:13

I've talked to so many people on this podcast had been diagnosed as being autistic, and most all of them got the diagnosis much later in life, and have said the same sorts of things that you've said, which is you knew you were different for some reason. You knew that it wasn't normal, or well, I won't say that, but but saying you knew you were different, but didn't know why. And most all of them have also said that when they actually got the diagnosis, that was a relief, and they they actually felt better.

Yenn Purkis 23:49

Yeah, that's funny because that wasn't me. So it took me seven years to accept my autism, and the reason was there were many reasons I think, but one of them was, I saw it as a diagnosis of nerd. And when I was diagnosed, I was a druggy and everything else. I didn't want to be a nerd. And everyone at school had called me a nerd. You see, so I thought, well, if I've got a diagnosis that proves it, I don't want to have anything to do with that. And also, I felt like it was my parents making excuses for my poor behavior at the time, and I just didn't like it. And deep down, I knew it was right. And I think that was the thing. It was a very personal thing, and it was part of my identity. But I didn't want to accept that because I didn't like myself. And the time at which I accepted it was when I was at uni. I'd just done my first year of uni. I realized that people liked me for who I was, which was a really big revelation. And so, at that point, I thought, "Oh, this autism thing might be right," and so I could take it on board. And then, from that, I sort of built my confidence as an advocate, and I wrote my first. Book in 2005, which is an autobiography about my life growing up as a an undiagnosed autistic person, which was published, and that actually really helped me with my confidence. And at that point, I was suddenly thrust into the autism advocacy world unexpectedly, and I said I had to move very quickly to keep up with with other people saying, "Oh, what do you think about this? What do you think about that?" I'm like, "I don't know anything about anything. I'm not an expert." And now I am an expert, so we got there eventually.

Michael Hingson 25:32

Well, that you know, so so maybe thinking of yourself as a nerd because you spend a lot of time learning and all that. There's nothing wrong with that.

Yenn Purkis 25:41

I'm a good nerd?

Michael Hingson 25:42

Yeah, exactly right. You know, there's nothing wrong with a good nerd. Well, do you regard autism as a negative, a positive, or something different than that?

Yenn Purkis 25:52

Interesting. As an advocate, as a advocate with a public profile, I would always say, you know, autism is a difference, different way of experiencing the world. It's like a a cultural thing, all of that. So definitely a positive. But there are elements of being autistic which are challenging, which is why it's included in the DSM five. There's definitely challenges, and while a lot of those challenges are societal and come from other people. There are parts of my autism I could really live without, actually. So I think it's more complicated than just saying, "Yay, let's all have lots of pride and it's fantastic," or saying, "Oh no, it's terrible. It's all deficits and problems." And I think there definitely are a lot of problems that are more due to society than due to autistic people themselves, but I think it's quite it is quite a complex thing. Anything related to identity is complex, and every person is different. And for me, the way I feel about it will fluctuate and change over time.

Michael Hingson 26:56

So autism is a thing.

Yenn Purkis 26:59

Autism is a thing.

Michael Hingson 27:01

Yeah. How about that?

Yenn Purkis 27:03

I had a manager or a CEO last year. I was a deputy CEO for Disability Leadership Organization, and the manager Christina always says that. She says, "Yes, it's a thing." So whenever I hear that, I think of Christina.

Michael Hingson 27:18

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, and and I think you're absolutely right. So many issues are societal in nature and are not realistic, and they're based on prejudice, which is so unfortunate. We all have to face it. I mean, certainly blindness is a situation that is affected so much by prejudice. I mean, the unemployment rate among employable blind people is still up in the neighborhood of 70%, and it's not that blind people can't work. It's just that people think we can, and so we tend to have so many so many issues. But but at the same time, it is something that we can work through. And I think what what is so really important is okay, society has the views that it does. That doesn't give me the right to hate society just because they don't understand. And so I've learned a long time ago that that it's all about education. And the fact of the matter is that I get to be a teacher, and I've always wanted to be a teacher anyway. But I get to be a teacher about blindness. You know, one of the things that I do a lot when I'm traveling somewhere and there are children around, they always want to pet my guide dog, and

Yenn Purkis 28:33

yes,

Michael Hingson 28:34

and their parents go, "Oh no, that dog might bite! Don't go over! Don't touch that dog!" And I will always, for children, I will always stop, and I will turn and I'll say no. The dog won't bite. Would you like to say hello? And usually the parents then will will back off and they will allow that. And what I will do is I'll take the the harness off the dog because harness is their symbol that they're working. And when you they're

Yenn Purkis 28:59

working, I'll say no,

Michael Hingson 29:00

they can relax, and I want my dog to be able to relax. So the harness comes off, and this dog is just flirting with all these kids. The only thing that I worry about is somebody who happens to have an ice cream cone. The dog is going to go for the cone.

Yenn Purkis 29:14

Yes, yeah,

Michael Hingson 29:16

but no, he's he's really good. He just he loves everybody, but he really loves to talk to kids. The harness comes off, and the tail goes 500 miles. Yeah, funny.

Yenn Purkis 29:26

That's brilliant. I love dogs.

Michael Hingson 29:29

Yeah, and they're they're fun to have around. They they they figure us out pretty well.

Yenn Purkis 29:35

Yeah. Well, they've domesticated humans, haven't they? Dogs. They really have.

Michael Hingson 29:41

Yeah, well, and then then there are always cats who train humans. I I think what they say about cats is true. Dogs have masters. Cats have staff. Cats

Yenn Purkis 29:50

have staff. Yeah, I have a cat. I don't know where she is. She normally comes and helps when I'm on Zoom, but I'm probably hiding in the wardrobe. Their favorite space.

Michael Hingson 30:01

Yeah. Well, I close the door because mine likes to get petted while she eats, and if I don't close the door, there's a pretty good chance that sometime during the podcast she'd want to get attention, and I can't very well get up and go pet her when we're we're doing this. So the door is closed, and she's figured out that that's probably the best thing to do. Well, so tell us more about your your PhD program, what you're working on, what that's all about, and so on.

Yenn Purkis 30:32

Yeah, absolutely. So I've wanted to do my PhD for a while. I've been doing a lot of academic work. I left the public service a couple of years ago, and went into business, which is amazing and terrifying and wonderful and scary. But what kind of business? So I do consultancy presentations. I do some disability support work and some academic work, and I've just signed up with a speakers agency called Brimble Media, so I'm going to see how much work they can get for me, and if they can get me lots, I'll stay with them, and if they can't, I'll leave. It's a good thing. I'm sure they'll get me lots of work. I only just signed up, so yeah. But no, so I do all these things, and so I was doing a lot of academic work. And I, 10 years ago, I wanted to do my PhD, and I applied and I got in, and then I realized, oh, I'm working full time in the public service. There aren't enough hours in the day, so I declined. And then last year, I just thought I should so do that PhD. So I applied, and they approved it. So I just started, and my topic is going to be looking at autism and employment and well-being and different kinds of employment. So standard employment, supported employment, volunteering, unemployment, self-employment, and it's going to be a mixed methods study, which means we're going to do some interviews and case studies, but also some surveys to to ascertain all the data that hopefully we need to know. Starting on my literature review, which is very exciting, and waiting to hear if I get the scholarship. So if I get the scholarship, I'm going to be delighted because that means I don't have to find. I've just lost one of my clients, and so don't worry, they didn't die. They just stopped working with me. So yeah, I'll be looking for some more work if I don't get the stipend, and if I do, I won't need to look for some work. So it's all good. It's all art.

Michael Hingson 32:33

With your PhD, are you starting with any kind of hypothesis or null hypothesis that you're you're working from on trying to prove or disprove,

Yenn Purkis 32:43

I have some research questions. I do not have a hypothesis as of yet. I want the data to speak for itself, so I want to be quite flexible in terms of what I find out without saying I want to find this out or I want to find that out. I'm doing a lit review, and I'm doing a little like a planning document with that. And I do have a, I guess, an expected outcomes, but that's more for the literature review than for the whole study. But yeah, I do have some things that I think it's probably going to turn up. I'm also doing research with La Troy of Uni about autism entrepreneurship and well-being, so there's going to be some crossover with those things. But yeah, I do I do enjoy a bit of study.

Michael Hingson 33:33

Well, there's nothing wrong with studying, and I I think we we all should study more than we do, at least even if we're not formally studying. I consider life a wonderful learning playground, and there's so much to learn. It's it's great to be that. Absolutely,

Yenn Purkis 33:48

I love the idea of yeah of learning through life, and as you go through, you pick up things and and educate other people. What you were saying before, the importance of educating people is huge. Some disability activists will say, "Oh, I shouldn't have to educate people." And no, you probably shouldn't have to, but you do. And so, you know, yes, it would be nice if we lived in a world where education was unnecessary, but we don't. And as such, I'm quite happy to educate.

Michael Hingson 34:17

Yeah, I, you know, I, I think that it's it's lovely to sit there and say, well, I shouldn't have to educate people. Well, but reality sets in, and the fact is that, from my perspective at least, it's lovely to have the opportunity to educate people because you get to meet people, you get to know people, and and people you you might not ever have come in contact with at any other time, so I don't have a problem with it. I think there's a lot to be said for being different and having the opportunity to talk about being different in whatever way that happens to be. The fact is, we're all different, but I think that so many people are similar enough that they don't view themselves. Is different than other people, but that's okay.

Yenn Purkis 35:02

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Hingson 35:04

So you know it it it comes okay, and so we can we can live with that. So, um, so the how long will it take you to get the PhD? Do you have a notion of a time frame? At the

Yenn Purkis 35:19

moment, I'm full time, and that should be another four years.

Michael Hingson 35:24

Ah, I wrote the book Thunderdog: The Story of a Blind Man His Guide Dog and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero, and my my co-author on that, Susie Flory, wanted to get a doctorate in I believe it's divinity, and she just told me today that she got her PhD.

Yenn Purkis 35:42

Ah, well done her. That's fantastic. Oh, well done you for the book. I looked up your book. It looks amazing. I'm gonna have to buy myself a copy.

Michael Hingson 35:52

Well, there's that, and then the other one I wrote that came out two and a half years ago was "Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man And his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith, and both of those are relevant. So hopefully you'll read them.

Yenn Purkis 36:09

They're on my list. I was on Amazon yesterday. I should have popped in and grabbed yours. I was a bit worried about Amazon. I'm not sure.

Michael Hingson 36:17

Well, they're all about Amazon. They're on Amazon, so you can always go there, and you can find them. But

Yenn Purkis 36:24

yeah,

Michael Hingson 36:25

you know. So so, how many books have you written so far?

Yenn Purkis 36:29

Thus far, 18 published ones. I've done a few a while back that didn't find a publisher, but yeah, 18 published ones. I've got two more on the go, which are under contract, and they're with my co-author Tanya, who I've done four other books with, and these ones are for kids. So I have about two thirds of my books are for adults, and a third of the children, which is hilarious. I was at a conference once. This woman came up and asked for a selfie, so we did a selfie, and she said, "Oh, my kids are going to be so excited that I met you." And it was the first time I'd realized I have fans that were children because I write children's books. It's wonderful. That made me a very happy little Getty.

Michael Hingson 37:09

So, so why did you write, and why did you start to write? But why did you write the books?

Yenn Purkis 37:15

The first book is called Finding a Different Kind of Normal. It's an autobiography. I wrote it when I was 30. I think 30. Yep. I have a very interesting life history involving the criminal justice system and things like that. So I had a mentor at the time, the late great Paulie Samuel, who's an autistic author as well. It's very well known, and she said to me, "You need to write your life story." And I said, "No, I'm not going to do it. People will judge me." And she said, "Well, when when you write your life story, it will be for the parents that come to my talks and they sit up the back and they leave before the end and they're ashamed because their kids got in trouble with the police." And she said, "When you write your book, it will be for those parents." And of course, I thought, well, that's my parents, and so I had to write the book. So I did, and it was published, obviously. And at the time, I was doing my masters. I was very poor. I lived in supported housing. I was survived on disability benefits, and life was pretty dire in terms of income. And I wrote this book, and within a year of it coming out, I got myself a public service job on the strength of the book, and the book changed my life. That one little blue and pink book changed my life forever. And I didn't write another one for eight years. And the reason I wrote the second one, I was in the psych hospital, and this guy came in. This young guy came in, and he was autistic, and he was 21, and he'd never driven a car. He didn't finish school. He finished school when he was 15, and his parents just thought it was all about deficits, and there was nothing this poor young man could do. And when I told him that I was autistic and had written a book and worked in the public service, he just looked at me and said, "Nah, you're lying. That's not possible." And at that point, I realized what I had to do, which was to change that narrative for autistic young people. Because in my mind, I was diagnosed, well, not that late, but late-ish, and I always thought if I had a younger diagnosis, I life would have been better. And this guy got a younger diagnosis, and his life was worse than mine. And I thought, well, if that's the case, I want to do something. So I became passionate about autism advocacy, and the first thing I did was write a book on employment for autistic teens. It's called the Wonderful World of Work, and from there everything just sort of grew. I had 2015. I had a few major events that were sort of pivotal in my career as an advocate. So since then I just wrote loads and loads of books. I did one. Mental health. I did the kids' books. Did one on gender diversity and autism. I did one on self advocacy. Another one on employment for adults, and it just sort of went from there. And now I don't have to submit proposals to publishers. They contact me and say, "Yen, can you write something?" And I usually say, of course I can. I like writing.

Michael Hingson 40:23

There you go. How did the pandemic affect your operation? Everything that you were doing, and so on.

Yenn Purkis 40:31

Interesting. For the pandemic, so in Canberra, where I live, we had two lockdowns: one in 2020 and one in 2021, and on both occasions I was in hospital. So the only way it impacted on my life at that point was that I wasn't allowed to go and leave from hospital because we're in lockdown. That was, and I didn't have any visitors. So before lockdown, visitors after lockdown, none. COVID is a scary thing. Looking back, I was just talking to someone about this yesterday, and sort of almost forget what things were like and the restrictions in Australia. We had restrictions on travel everywhere, even when it wasn't locked down. We still couldn't just go somewhere, and it was you know there was a trauma element to it, I think, even for me, and I'm quite good with managing difficult things. In terms of my business, when at the time I was working in the public service, and so we just all had to work from home. In terms of my business, it resulted in, and this has continued. So it used to be when I had events, they were in person, so I'd have to travel to wherever the event was. But since COVID, most of the events are online, and this makes me delighted because it's so much easier. I can sit here in my office at my laptop giving a talk, not having to fly somewhere, not having to go somewhere different, and it really, I think it's fantastic. And it's also cheaper for people organizing conferences. If it's online, all you have to do is pay for a Zoom license. I'm obviously pay the speakers, but yeah, that's been the main difference for me during COVID and since COVID has just been the the structure of of presentations and events is most of them are online. For me,

Michael Hingson 42:30

although I have given and will continue to from time to time give virtual presentations, I prefer doing in person presentations, and the main reason for me is that when I'm in a room with an audience and I'm speaking, I can tell how they're reacting to what I say, and that's not something that I can get from Zoom presentations because it just doesn't work that way. So I prefer to be able to to do live presentations, but as I said, virtual ones come up. And in fact, I know I've got one coming up later this year that's strictly a virtual presentation, and that's okay. I could do that. I've been I've been speaking long enough that I pretty much can predict what most audiences will do, but still, it's not the same as doing for me a live presentation. But and when the pandemic began, yeah, we had lockdown here as well, yeah, and and did. And when when the pandemic began, my wife and I just locked ourselves down voluntarily. She was in a wheelchair, and so she also had other potential issues. So it was really important to protect her. And you know, the other side of it is we like each other very well, so it was okay. And so we we locked down and we got to talk a lot and just do things, but still, then when the opportunity did arise to to speak, I did, and and travel to do that. But I think that you're right. Covid is a very scary thing, and I think people also make up so many things about COVID. I mean, there's over here. There's so many people who say, "Well, we can't take those vaccines because all they are is putting trackers in our bodies." Come on, people!

Yenn Purkis 44:32

Oh dear, that's silly and dangerous.

Michael Hingson 44:37

Yeah, it is. Thank

Yenn Purkis 44:38

God.

Michael Hingson 44:39

And I, I, the first few times we went and got vaccines, they gave us vaccinations in our car, and

Yenn Purkis 44:48

yeah, that's right. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 44:50

and I had to of course tease the nurses, and they would do the vaccination. I say, oh, I can feel it going in. Wait a minute, there's something that's coming back out. I got to get it, and I slap. Elbow or my arm, I got it, and you know they said you're not serious. I said no, but it's fun to tease you. But people still swear by that today that there's trackers. I'm I'm sorry, I don't buy it. But anyway, that's okay.

Yenn Purkis 45:16

My feeling about conspiracy theories is Occam's razor, as in the most logical, reasonable reason is the reason, not some convoluted nonsense. You heard the one where they think the British royal family are lizard people from the center of the earth.

Michael Hingson 45:34

No, I hadn't heard that one.

Yenn Purkis 45:36

It's a good one, isn't it? That one's been around for a while.

Michael Hingson 45:39

Well, we know that the Earth is flat, right? It

Yenn Purkis 45:42

is, and the moon landing was faked.

Michael Hingson 45:44

Yeah. Well, yes, there's so many, but no, I hadn't heard that about the the British royal family. Well, that explains a lot. Okay.

Yenn Purkis 45:54

Prince Andrew, you know.

Michael Hingson 45:56

Yeah. Well, gosh. Every so often, when someone misses a meeting, we you know, as you know, we have introductory calls before people come on the podcast, and several times when people have missed, and I think about it before doing it, so I don't do it all the time. But I'll I'll say, you can I you missed, and clearly what's went on, and and this is the rumor I'm going to spread is that you were taken by a flying saucer and you're you're you're not on the planet anymore. So let me know when you're back and we can do the podcast. You know, I just think it's important to have a sense of humor.

Yenn Purkis 46:34

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Michael Hingson 46:37

So, have you had a lot of like mentors and role models in your life, or what do you think of mentors and role models?

Yenn Purkis 46:45

I'm a big fan of a mentor and a role model. You know, there's that wonderful saying: if you can't see it, you can't be it. And then one that I invented, which is, if you can see it, you can be it. You know, it's really important to have people in life, especially for those of us who belong to whatever marginalized group we might belong to. Often we get made to feel really crappy about who we are, and you get things like imposter syndrome and rejection sensitivity and low self confidence, self esteem. And if you have someone supporting you as a mentor from the same, you know, with a similar experience to you, whatever that may be, it really seriously helps helps so much. My best mentor was wonderful Polly, who encouraged me to write my first book and supported me and showed me a life that I hadn't viewed as possible. And for me, that was amazing, and now I find myself as an advocate, my mentoring, my relationships with other people in the autistic community, in particular, sort of echo what Polly did for me, and I think that's a lovely thing. I'm not as famous as she was, and I never will be, but you know her ethos, the way she approached supporting other people with their careers, I love to think I'm doing similar stuff now, and I have a protege who is more well known than I am, which is a great thing as a mentor. That's what you want, and it is so important, especially in the disability community, because it's so easy for us to believe all the negative stuff, and to have someone building us up and giving us confidence makes a huge difference and is a great thing.

Michael Hingson 48:31

So, in the world today, do you think that autism is becoming at all more accepted? Do you think that people are because it's becoming more visible are are becoming better with it.

Yenn Purkis 48:46

Yeah, I think so. So I've been in this space for 21 years, and I have seen a lot of changes. And as someone who was diagnosed over 30 years ago, I've seen a lot of changes. So when I was diagnosed, nobody had heard of Asperger's. They'd heard of autism, but didn't quite know what that meant. When I was diagnosed, I was told it was something like one in 2000 people was autistic, and out of that, one in 25 was female. And obviously, as time's gone on, those ratios have changed. But what I observed over time, so it started off. People said, "I don't know what that is." To I've heard of that. To my insert distant relative here has been diagnosed with that. To some level of understanding. To news outlets talking about neurodiversity. To what we have now, which is where everyone has an opinion. Some of the opinions are helpful; some of them not so much. But there is a lot more awareness and understanding in the community. We have in Australia, we have a few very well-known autistic people who are advocates, but they're also in the public eyes. So the. Someone called Chloe Hayden, who's young person, who's part of a TV show called Heartbreak High, and she's really got a very high profile as an autistic celebrity, not a celebrity who happens to be autistic. We've spent a lot of time with you know, oh, Tim Burton's autistic, or I can't think of anyone. Susan Boyle's autistic, but they weren't autistic first, then celebrities. They were celebrities first, then with a diagnosis. Whereas some of the people we have now are autistic first, celebrity second. So that is a big difference. I get a bit cringy with some of the representation, especially the representation that isn't by actually autistic people, things like Sheldon Cooper just makes me cringe. And then you have these programs, sort of reality programs about autistic people, which are also a bit cringy. But some of the representation is fantastic. So I think we live in a world where there's a lot more knowledge. There's that thing, isn't it? The danger of people who don't have very much knowledge, and that's definitely a thing as well. So that you know, just because you've heard about autism doesn't actually mean you know much about it. So it's um, it's a bit of a two-edged sword. But I do think overall, I think things have improved.

Michael Hingson 51:19

Did Did you say Susan Boyle was autistic.

Yenn Purkis 51:22

Yeah,

Michael Hingson 51:23

I didn't know that. No. Oh, she's. I didn't know that. Doesn't change anything. I just didn't know that. No. Yeah. Good singer.

Yenn Purkis 51:33

Good singer. I won't say that. It's a bit rude. There's a rude story about Susan Boyle, but she didn't do anything rude. It was just a yeah. Anyway,

Michael Hingson 51:42

all people are people, but but you know, but still, you know, I know that we're we're we're seeing more visibility, and with with all of these things, and you know, blind people are becoming more vocal.

Yenn Purkis 51:59

Yeah,

Michael Hingson 51:59

a number of us are now reacting to the concept of being called visually impaired because we're we're not visually we're not different simply because we're blind and impaired we're not simply because we're blind. They're trying to equate it to how much eyesight we have, and the fact of the matter is, there is relevance to blind and low vision as opposed to Visually impaired,

Yenn Purkis 52:21

visually impaired. Yeah, the

Michael Hingson 52:22

experts in the field created that, and it's such a disservice.

Yenn Purkis 52:27

Yeah.

Michael Hingson 52:27

So it's much more relevant to talk about blind and low vision and get the impaired out of it.

Yenn Purkis 52:33

Yeah.

Michael Hingson 52:33

But still, people, it takes a while. Even some blind people. I'm visually impaired. That's all there is to it. Well, you're not, but anyway,

Yenn Purkis 52:42

yeah.

Michael Hingson 52:43

But

Yenn Purkis 52:43

yeah,

Michael Hingson 52:44

it's education, and it's something that we we have to teach, and it takes time.

Yenn Purkis 52:49

Yeah, so absolutely.

Michael Hingson 52:52

So for you, you're doing a lot of stuff. I'm sure there are a lot of people who call you inspirational. What do you think about that?

Yenn Purkis 53:00

Oh, it depends on the context. So there's a thing called inspiration porn, which is where disabled people are considered inspirational, basically because they exist. There's a wonderful talk by the late Stella Young for TEDx Sydney called "I Will Not Be Your inspiration, or something like that. I can't remember the exact title, and it's just about that and people treating her differently, and seeing her as inspirational just because she did stuff and she had a disability. So people do that to me. I get a bit annoyed. Somebody told me once, "Oh, it's amazing you can catch the bus." I'm like I work in the public service, sweetie. If there's anything amazing about me, it's not catching the bus. So that kind of thing's annoying. But my life story actually is inspirational. So it's it yeah it depends. It really does depend on context. If somebody is genuinely inspired by my story, I'm fine with that. But if they think I'm inspirational for catching the bus, they need to have a bit of a rethink about their disability politics.

Michael Hingson 54:08

Well, I I think that's absolutely true, and you know I recognize, and a lot of people tell me that my story is inspirational and so on. I appreciate that, but at the same time, I'm I'm so amazed when somebody comes up and says, "Oh, it's amazing that you knew how to get to that door." Well, you know, there's so much more to it, or it's you're you're just amazing because because you can't see and you can do all these things. Well, yeah, and so so I I I hear what you're saying, and inspiration is a a term all too often used, and probably not necessarily put in the best context. But again, it's not my place to react negatively, but rather to try to educate people when I can. Well, well, let's really talk about what that means. You know, and that's really the issue.

Yenn Purkis 55:03

Yeah.

Michael Hingson 55:04

Well, so tell me more about the role of cats in your life. Since we talked about cats a while ago,

Yenn Purkis 55:12

cats are the absolute best. I have loved cats since I knew they existed, and when I was a kid, the amount of pestering I did with my parents to get a cat, and yes, guess what? We got a cat. I've always had them my whole life. One I've got in the moment, little sunflower, the naughty tortie. She is so beautiful and naughty, but they just meant a lot to me. They're my therapists. A cat for me is a much better therapist than a psychologist. Sorry, psychologists, you do a good job too. But yeah, I love just love cats. They're very important. Autistic people often have passionate interests. So one of my passionate interests is autism and advocacy, and another is cats, and always has been. I just love them to bits. Yeah, I like dogs too. It's not that I have anything against dogs. I think they're great, but I'm much more, yeah, focused on on cats. I think, and yeah, they like me too. I have a friend called Wayne who's also co-author. Most of my friends end up writing a book with me at some point, and he said to me once, "He said when I die, I want to come back as your cat."

Michael Hingson 56:30

Yeah, I've had people say that to me too, and and that's fine if that's what they want to do. But I I never had a cat until I got married, and when I got married, my wife's cat's name was Bojangles, and and Bojangles was a cat that would bite you just as soon as look at you. Although it was a game, it wasn't like she was yeah, and she she

Yenn Purkis 56:59

she

Michael Hingson 56:59

liked to do it to men more than women, but one of the things that Karen and I decided early on was that Bojangles had to get used to me being around, so I took over all feeding of the cat, and I would

Speaker 2 57:14

even

Michael Hingson 57:14

seek her out and carry her to her food dish, which she didn't like at first, and then she decided that really isn't such a bad thing, but but I I became her her go to person, which worked out really well. And then we've had cats ever since. And now we have Stitch, or I have Stitch, and we got Stitch in 2015. We were not intending to have a cat. We were living in an apartment, but we decided that there were neighbors, and they were moving out, and they were going to take their cat to the to the pound. And we said, "No, we'll find it a home."

Yenn Purkis 57:53

Yeah. And then

Michael Hingson 57:54

I made the mistake, as I always love to put it, of asking what the cat's name was, and the neighbor said the cat's name was Stitch, and I knew that this cat wasn't going to go anywhere because my wife, because my wife had been a quilter since 1994. Quilters was not going to get rid of a cat named Stitch.

Yenn Purkis 58:11

Stitch, yeah, ah, quilting's fantastic.

Michael Hingson 58:15

She's a great kitty. Now we we're very blessed to have her, and no no complaints at all. Well, this has absolutely been wonderful to do. It's been just about an hour already. Can you believe it?

Yenn Purkis 58:27

Yeah, we're

Michael Hingson 58:28

having fun. So, if people want to reach out to you and and learn more and and so on, how do they do that?

Yenn Purkis 58:37

I have a website which is www. yennpurkis. com, and you can send me a message through there. Spell spell

Michael Hingson 58:44

that if you would.

Yenn Purkis 58:45

Y e n n p u r k i

Michael Hingson 58:51

s.com. okay.com.

Yenn Purkis 58:53

I also have Facebook and LinkedIn accounts. So LinkedIn is just Yenn Purkis, and Facebook is. You might need to write this one down. Yenn Purkis Neurodiversity Page.

Michael Hingson 59:06

Yenn Purkis Neurodiversity Page. Okay.

Yenn Purkis 59:08

Neurodiversity Page. Yeah. Right. And I do have an Instagram account, but it's not behaving itself at the moment, so I'd avoid that one.

Michael Hingson 59:16

Technology. What do you do? Right.

Yenn Purkis 59:19

Keeps crashing my laptop every time I go on there, I have utterly no idea what's going on with it. I turned it off for I don't know a couple of months. Turned it back on again. Still doing it. So yeah, who knows?

Michael Hingson 59:31

Oh well, well again. I want to thank you for being here with us and spending an hour. It's been a lot of fun. I think a lot of insight, a lot of really good information for people, and I hope that people will reach out to you. And if you all would like to talk with me, I'm easy to reach. You can contact me at speaker@michaelhingson.com, and Michael Hingson is spelled M I C H A E L H I N G S O N. Yeah,

Yenn Purkis 59:58

and

Michael Hingson 59:59

if you want to. See all of our podcasts. You can go to michaelhingson.com/podcast. But I really value you being here today, and I'm sure Yenn does as well. We'd love it if you'd give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or listening to this. But also, even more important, please give us a review. We really love reviews, and and people who are interested in listening or watching podcasts always want to see what other people think. So please give us a review. But of course, we only want you to say positive things because we're prejudiced. But thank you very much for being here. And once again, Yenn, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. So thanks very much for being with

Yenn Purkis 1:00:39

us. And thank you for having me. I hope everyone enjoys the podcast.

Michael Hingson 1:00:46

Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for Listening, keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.