Judgment is NOT Correlated to Intelligence

Welcome to the Missing Secret Podcast. I'm Kelly Hatfield.

Hey, and I'm John Mitchell. So here's our topic today: judgment is not correlated to intelligence. You find that interesting, Kelly?

I find it interesting. We haven't you before we started recording. You told me you know that sentence, and I haven't had much time to think about it. I'm interested to kind of dig into this and see where you're going with this.

Well, and maybe maybe you were like I was until the last week or two that the science indicates that there is very little correlation between someone's intelligence and their judgment. Not that there's absolutely none, but it's very, very small, and so basically, it's it's not correlated. And I find this interesting because I've been studying human nature and and what the science says, and and it says that people's actions reflect their judgment, and they always make a decision on an action emotionally and then justify it with logic. Sometimes a very convoluted logic, if whatever their judgment action is makes no sense, and you know I may have yeah I was giving my my class the example of you know a friend of mine whose daughter does not discipline her kids, and and so that's very frustrating because he sees how damaging that is long term, and and then we started talking about how well what's it look like from the the daughter's standpoint. Well, it's an emotional decision, and she doesn't see the long term benefit of discipline because it is long term versus the short term pain of disappointing your kids, and so that's a that's an example of of making an emotional decision and justifying it with logic. Although the justification would would be pretty convoluted to most of us, I think. And another example. This is this is really a classic one. You see where the the CEO of Nvidia had an affair, right?

Yeah.

Well, perfect example. He's a smart guy, no doubt about it. But the judgment to have an affair. Why did that happen? Well, well, again, people are deciding to do actions based first on emotion and then justify with logic. Well, the emotion would probably be something about he has this this cute girl that's somehow now in his life, and he has some sort of emotional need that he's not getting from his wife, and he makes a bad decision. And now you know, but you know that's a good example of of how intelligence and judgment is not related. But I'm curious, what do what do you think? Do you buy that, or does that change your thinking? Or

yeah, no, I I buy it. I mean, that makes I've seen some really smart people make some really dumb, right? Some really poor judgment,

right?

So, so that you know that makes perfect sense to me that those two, you know, that intelligence intelligence isn't coordinated, you know, with judgment or correlated. Sorry, with judgment or somebody having good judgment just because they're intelligent.

But I thought it was highly correlated. You know, if you did, well, yeah. If you did that two weeks ago, I would have said, "Oh, yeah, I think judgment and intelligence are highly correlated." But the research, the actual research, the empirical evidence says that it's not, and so that was very eye opening to me. And it it also explains a lot with with what I I teach. So much of what I teach is to me an intelligent person would go, oh yeah, like like we were talking a minute ago about one of my students who who didn't embrace deep thinking, you know, two times a week. Well, who in the world would not embrace that from a just a logical standpoint? You know, before we get to them actually doing it or not doing it, is there anybody going to go? No, you know I don't. I just don't think that's very helpful.

Yeah,

you know,

which I think is shallow as possible.

Right, right. But you know, it's it's like so. If you're going on this trip, this journey of life, don't you think it might be a good idea to a couple times week to. To step back from that journey and see if we're navigating it in the right direction, or do you think just just constantly go go go and never never try and navigate it? You think that's a good idea, you know? But I don't know. You know, it's fascinating to me to see this, and I don't know. I tried to assess really what I I think. I guess I have two thoughts on it, and one might be controversial, and one might not be so controversial. You know, on one hand, people are doing the best they can, and whatever they believe, they're entitled to believe it, because they are just a product of their genetics and what has come into their consciousness to this point in their life. So whatever they believe, that's what they believe. They're not. They're not trying to be dumb. They're you know they're just that's what they they believe. So you can rat rave all you want that you ought to get this when in fact they either get it or they don't get it. But the other thing I see, and I almost hate to say this, but that I don't think people are that bright. You know, I I know I know, and and I try and make sure that that I don't exhibit that in in aspects of my life. But you know, you laugh. But you know what I mean. What do you think?

I don't know. I I keep thinking. You know. So in going back to your question that you had about, do I believe you know like what are my thoughts initially like it doesn't surprise me at all that the science says that you know there is not a correlation you know intelligent people and you know judge and judgment between intelligence and and judgment because we see it all the time I can think of some amazing leaders and orators and business leaders who've totally blown up, you know, their lives through a poor judgment decision they've made about something, you know, whether it's being unethical or, you know, compromising their integrity or, you know, um, those kinds of things. And so that doesn't surprise me at all because these people are brilliant and yet they're making stupid, you know, decisions, you know. But you know, in terms of what you just asked about, you know, where you're, where you said it, your it goes back to me. The thing that we learned about the science, and you just mentioned this, which is like we are all a product of genetics and of what has come into our consciousness. You know, the different events that have kind of made us who we are again, those things all coming into our consciousness, you know. So for me, I'm always in that space where, like, okay, I need to understand better what makes this person tit,

yeah,

because then I can, you know, there's some I can influence, you know, a situation if I understand their perspective and where they're coming from and why they think what they think about something, you know, because something new needs to come into their consciousness and awareness to, you know, help them understand the point I'm trying to make or what I'm trying to introduce into their life or that kind of thing. So I don't think I believe the same thing, you know, where you're where you're saying I just don't think most people are intelligent or smart. I think it really is the point you were making earlier, which is everybody is different. We all are made up of these different experiences that influence, you know, how we show up, what we think, you know, those kinds of things. So I think understanding and uncovering some of that helps, you know, me under like I don't know maybe have more empathy or you know look at things from a different perspective because I'm like okay well if I know that that's you know what's part of what whatever the situation is is part of what's made you you know who you are then now I know maybe what angle to come in at to talk to you about a particular topic so that you can hear and understand what it is that I'm saying.

Right, you know, I see the dichotomy of my own of my own beliefs in that you know probably more than ever I appreciate people's right to have an opinion and and to have an opinion different than my opinion. It and really to a level beyond what I've I've thought before. But the other side of the coin is one of the things that I I have really been studying is this this phenomenon that's called the spark but dumb paradox, where you know we've talked about this before, where about 50% of people, and I'm sure I've followed in this category too at some point in my life, where 50% of smart people will be doing dumb things or have dumb philosophies, and I see that. That I just tell my classes yesterday that it really helps. Me over the last couple years, when I saw when I looked at opinions, you know, people either have an opinion that is a preference or it's a claim on reality. It's one or the other, and a preference would be like, "What's the best color?" Okay, that's a preference. Well, claim on reality would be as an example. You know, I think that exercising is good for your health. Well, that's my opinion. Somebody else may go, "Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't. I don't really think so." Well, okay, let's look at what the empirical evidence. It is a claim on reality. There is empirical evidence. What is the truth? Because I think we've gotten away from the truth. So let's go see what the truth is. What is the empirical evidence? Okay. Well, it would prove that exercise is good for you. And so, if I was taking that position, I'd be right, and the other person would be wrong, and and I was talking to my class because there's a tendency that there are no wrong opinions. No, there's wrong opinions. There's wrong opinions. Yeah, and so for me, it's gotten easier by looking at it that way that if it's a claim on reality, just what's what is the truth, and one person's right and one person's wrong, or one one person is closer to right and and

one person is is less close to being right. But that has actually helped me. But but I also see as I get older that, and of course I got you know I'm like 40 to 50 years older than my students. You know, you know I was a knucklehead when I was younger. You know I was not very enlightened. You know I'm like you know why aren't you guys more enlightened? Well, I wasn't more enlightened either.

Yeah, 100%.

And that's really helped me to go. It's okay. It's okay. They don't get it, or if you they're not having as high level discussion as you like. But but I see so much in the world that it just tells me so many people are not very bright. Like like the latest thing Trump did with making Stephen Miller his chief of staff when he's the guy that was the architect of this inane immigration policy. Wow, how can we be more unenlightened?

Yeah,

and you know, there's a like in in Texas, you know, Texas said the blue wave. Now the the governor wants to eliminate school choice. Wow, wow! You know that seems unenlightened to me. But I see that that you know in this world, and this may be the effect of you getting older. You just you just see how unenlightened so many people are. Not, and it's not that they have a that you're you're just having the attitude that they're unenlightened because they don't see the world like I do. But but they're unenlightened when you look at what the empirical evidence is for their positions, and you see how far it is from the the truth. I so you know. You what's your take on all that?

I think well, you know, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I also think you know, like two things can be true at the same time. You know, I don't know enough about, and I have no ever hesitation whatsoever in saying I don't know enough about this topic to have a really intelligent discussion or an informed opinion on it. You know,

right?

So let's use the example of your your governor, your governor elect, Gina. You know, and the school of choice and everything. Okay. Well, I'm sure that there's an argument to be made. You know, I'm better factual on each side, where there's some different numbers and statistics, because we also know that you can really, you know, make those numbers and statistics on either side of things say whatever you want them to say. You know what I mean? Like there are

right.

So you know, so while I absolutely you know understand where you're coming from, and there is you know I think what you're saying, a lot of what you're saying is true. There also is that you know the the make sure that we're operating with this you know with all of the same information. You know what I mean? Right. And that yeah. Right.

And what is the truth?

Yeah. And what is the truth?

Maybe that's a better place to start than try to parse people's opinions. Let's

yeah.

Let's just answer what we agree is the truth. Yeah, to

the truth about the matter, whatever the subject is. You know, it's like okay, well, let's talk about the things that are factual that are related to this particular issue or this particular, you know, um, and then just start, you know, naming those things off, the things that we know are a fact, because with some of these people. That you know what, where I literally am saying you are a dipshit. You know, while I'm listening to them, is you know it is what they think is fact.

Yeah, is

in fact.

Yeah,

information that they're operating from, the vantage point that they're operating from, they don't have all of the information or the facts, so they're stating this thing that they are, you know, like this is what I believe, and this is what I, without operating from the same, you know, information and you know facts where it's like, well, actually, none of what you just said is true, you know, Russia didn't, you know, you didn't start the war, you know what I mean? That you know, here's the empirical data that shows you that Russia actually did, Ukraine didn't. You know, like whatever that you know thing is that you're debating, you have to be operating with the same information. You know what I mean? That's true and factual.

You know that really sort of makes the the point I was making yesterday that that everybody sort of operates from the standpoint of of its opinion, and we're not addressing what the facts are. Because when everything is an opinion, then people can shade the facts and not really address the truth. But if if you go, wait a minute, let's let's stop all this opinion stuff, and let's ascertain what is factually and empirically true, and and then let's hear what people's opinions are. And if if your opinion is contrary to the truth, then you happen to be wrong. You know, you find this interesting around the topic today, so judgment is is basically unrelated to intelligence. And I asked Chat GPT or Claude, I said, "So, what determines good judgment?" And it says three things: first, being open minded. Okay, that makes sense. Being intellectually humble, knowing what you know, and acknowledging what you don't know's a big one. And then the third one was seeking the truth, especially when it's contrary to what you currently believe, you know, and and I think a fourth one would be something you mentioned: seek to understand before trying to be understood. That is such a powerful thing. But if you take basically those those four, you'll have good judgment. But I don't know. That's that's what's been cracking in my head, and it's fascinating to teach MBAs because at the end of the day, I see they're people. You know, they're you know I sort of thought, well, they're going to be highly driven, and by virtue of spending 200 grand to get at their MBA and they're the right age, and a lot of that is true, you know. And they're well suited for what I'm teaching. But the other side of it is they're just people. There's just not a lot of difference with MBAs versus the entrepreneurs you and I worked with, you know. And and oftentimes we we would be frustrated. Why can't you get this? You know, well, you know, is it they intellectually didn't get it, or more

likely they were not doing actions because emotionally, you know, maybe maybe they didn't want you. You know, I'd look at it from what we we do. You're giving them the choice of of why don't you do the 12 minute day technique, where you're feeding the succinct articulation of your desired life to yourself each day, or winging life. Well, some people will go, okay, I'm all in on that 12 minute day. If that makes sense, I am all in, then other people will go. Well, you know, I don't know. I I really don't want to be that structured in the morning, and I just want to I just want to wing it. Well, okay, you're entitled to to that, but I would say that that the people that are really driven would go. You know, I'm doing this because it's infinitely better than winging life, and and those seem to be the only two alternatives: this or winging life. I don't see many alternatives to it.

Yeah, One of the things that I have been thinking a lot about lately, you know, as we're as you know we're talking about people and the decisions they're making and what they do adopt and don't adopt and

right,

you know how to influence and you know these topics that we talk a lot about. One of the things that I keep kind of going back to is kind of one of the light bulb moments I had around. On like the disc assessment or things similar to the disc assessment, right? Where like some people are just made to be, you know, I forget what your I can't remember mine.

I'm I'm a I'm a D, so I'm you know big picture and task oriented.

Yep, task oriented, direct communicator. You know those kinds of things, and that's you know, that's who you are. You know what I mean. And I know you've become that over here. And again, part of that is what's come into your consciousness and made you who you are. But also, too, I think you know this goes back to a much deeper discussion: nature, nurture. But I think we're often born kind of the way, you know, with that that are not doing a very good job of articulating it, but like if I know kind of make what makes you tick, then I'll understand a lot of how I'm gonna, you know, how I'm going to speak with you and how I might be able to influence you if I know what makes you tick as an individual. Yeah, what I mean, because so so that person that isn't a morning person, you know, and isn't somebody they fall into you know maybe one of the different categories, then I know okay, you know I get what makes this person tick and maybe why this methodology in the morning isn't you know so I don't know I think people are complicated and we're everybody is so different that it's you know making kind of generalized characterizations about you know that's hard for me because the more I learn the more I'm like oh I get why sometimes this isn't connecting with people because you've got to meet people where they're at and to meet people where they're at you've really got to understand them a little bit better and kind of what makes them and you know, unfortunately, we're not either you teaching at the school or us, you know, having a course or whatever. You don't get the opportunity to understand what makes somebody tick to then be able to influence them to understand. I don't know really where I'm, you know, kind of what I'm where I'm going with this, but you know, the more I understand about it, the more I understand how nuanced it is, because people are complicated.

Well, I think that is the the lesson. People are complicated, and and I've gotten to the point really where people get this methodology that they're meant to get it is is just the intelligence of life, and it's okay if they don't get it. That's that's fine. They're they're trying the best they can, and if it doesn't resonate with them, then that's fine, and I'm okay with it. And and that's a good place to be. And I see that that you know when you have 50, when you're given 50 lives to to impact, you know my when I started, this was the first semester I taught MBAs. I'm like, man, I'm going to get every one of them. They're so perfect for what I'm teaching.

Yeah.

Well, now that's an unrealistic expectation. Yeah. Now I'm I'm dealing with reality a little more that there are people and they they get it or they don't get it, and and either way is okay, and that that now my focus is not to worry if they're getting it or not getting it. More of the focus is to just be great at at presenting it and continually evolving it because it is evolving, and make that the focus rather than if they're really getting it, and and I see because this is the first semester I've had a TA, a teaching assistant to to help track. The majority of them are getting it and are doing. You know, it's not all of them, but the majority are are doing it, and that's all you can really hope for. And I see that that if you get that done and you get them to actually do it and they'll do it for you know 21 days, then the magic starts happening. I don't have to worry about. I wonder if it'll work or not. Yes, it'll work 100% of the time if they if they do it. Yeah. So so it's really been, you know, a journey, especially over the last three weeks, to move from having unrealistic expectations now to more accurate read on on reality and and what what my focus should be versus what it sort of was when I started this semester. But

no, I love that.

Hopefully, you know all this. You'll think about all this, but you know to to put a a bow in this, appreciate that judgment is unrelated largely to intelligence, and that has been the big epiphany for me. And seeing the science behind this has been very enlightening. So think about that, and we'll talk to you next time.