Are you accidentally giving your IP away to AI?

[00:00:02] Before we jump into the show, this episode is brought to you by Waze. That's W-A-I-V. It's the platform where coaches, course creators, and experts can build and sell protected AI products with their expertise baked right in so their clients can get their thinking, not just a generic LLM.

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[00:00:36] I think everyone is calling themselves an AI expert and they're not. So just like red flag there. I want to use AI as a way to support and help my clients, but I don't want to be known for here's the 17 skills that I created.

[00:00:58] Welcome to the next evolution of the podcast, Entrepreneur School (In the AI Era). We are here to figure out how to integrate AI into the business you've worked so hard to build in a way that still feels like you. I'm your host, Kelly Sinclair, award-winning marketer turned AI platform co-founder.

[00:01:19] AI has fundamentally changed how I thought about work, systems, and what's actually possible. This show is about navigating that new reality together. It's going to be a wild ride, my friend, but I truly believe there's a way to leverage AI in a way that's intentional, human-centered, and aligned. It's an ongoing evolution, so let's explore because AI may just be the unlock you need to achieve the life-first business you truly desire.

[00:01:51] Welcome back to Entrepreneur School (In the AI Era). I'm very excited to introduce you today to Holly Haynes. She is one of our fabulous clients at Wave, and we have built out some very cool bot squads that she is using with her clients in her program, Antisocial School.

[00:02:12] And Holly is a business strategist with years and years of experience who is now baking that experience into AI tools that people can use, and I am so excited to talk about that today. Welcome, Holly. Yay! Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk about this, too.

[00:02:30] Yes. Well, I feel like I just want to kudos to you for being on the leading edge of what we are betting on as a trend that people are wanting to use more AI as part of the way that they learn how to do whatever it is, you know, in their businesses and whatnot.

[00:02:49] So maybe can you share when you first started adding AI into your programs, explain what your program is kind of about and how that's evolved over time? Yeah, it's definitely evolved over time, which I think is a really important theme is that, you know, things are always changing. And I think as an entrepreneur, regardless of you're using AI or bot squads, like you want to keep growing. And so anti-social school is our signature program.

[00:03:16] It's a six-week marketing and strategy program that helps you build your entire marketing strategy without relying on social media, but also helps you build the systems behind the scenes and helps you build the path to turn leads into sales. And so it's not just, oh, let me write a blog post.

[00:03:36] It's the whole strategy of sort of what your home base is, how you're going to share it, where you're coming up with content, and how do you really attract the right people that turns leads into sales. And so the trick with anti-social school is it's very custom. This is not a like one size fits all model. We do have a framework that we follow, but it's a lot of back and forth with me. It's a lot of back and forth with you. And we're like really working through like, what do you like to talk about? What feels aligned? Like, who is your ideal client?

[00:04:06] All the things that you might think through, but it like, it's not my strategy is your strategy. And so we developed the program and I was like, this is going to be really hard to scale because it's so much of my time. And so I wanted to be very cognizant of how do I scale this so that I can help more students, but I don't want to lose the personal touch and the human interaction. And I don't want it to be, I always say it's not a course.

[00:04:35] Like it's a, let's do some homework. Let's talk about it. Let's take the next step. Let's figure out what it is. Like I don't want people just coming in and watching videos. So we sort of moved away from that. And right when Chat2BT started coming onto the scene, which I guess was like maybe a year and a half ago now, two years, I was like, what can I do to help people get through the homework quicker so that when you come to the live calls, you already have a base.

[00:05:04] You already are brainstorming. You already have ideas. And then we can talk through it. So I spend less time coming up with like seven different options for you. You can do that on your own. And then I spend more time being able to go deeper into the homework. And so that's sort of where the first couple of like Chat2BT prompts came from.

[00:05:24] And then it sort of evolved into like, oh, I can use a bot and I can help people really dial into the homework in a very micro way. So one of the things that I talk about is each one of our bots is a micro topic. So it's a very teeny tiny piece of the whole formula. You do the homework. You work with our AI squad and then you bring it to me and we review it.

[00:05:49] So I started out creating these Chat2BT bots, which is great, but you can't really control them. And you never know like where they're going to go and what information they're pulling and sort of like the wild, wild west. So then I moved over to Claude, which a lot of us had.

[00:06:06] And I was getting more robust answers, but started to run into, I don't like when you share a skill with Claude, you have to share everything that's like packaged into that skill. And I have uploaded transcripts and Q&As and our basically entire antisocial school strategy.

[00:06:28] And I was getting a little nervous to be like, here's the skill, go take it because it has all of our like proprietary information in it. But they were really good.

[00:06:39] And so I think, you know, when Kelly was talking about Wave and the bot squad, I was like, this is really interesting to me because I'm able to take those micro skills and make them so much more robust than I could as a standalone and share it in a way where you as a client don't have to use your credits or anything with Chat2BT or Claude.

[00:07:05] And they're still the same tools that I use, right? So we're able to get you really great results and you're able to bring those to our office hours and to our calls. And it just, it felt really aligned. It's been a very long journey to get here, but I think it's a really cool mix of there's a lot of human strategy and brainpower. And then there's a lot of, I'll say, easy tech to help you implement and make it better.

[00:07:35] And that's something that I haven't seen before. Like, I don't know another marketing program that does this the way that we put it together. So that's kind of how we want here. Yeah. Oh, there's so many good pieces in there. What you were talking about. One is like you noticed a need that like your clients were coming to these calls that you had set up being like, I don't know where to start. Right.

[00:08:01] And I've talked about this before in other contexts where it's like, what is the thing that's blocking them? What is keeping them ultimately as a coach and a strategist like you are, your goal is to get results for your clients. So we're now just looking at all of the things that are preventing them from getting results and how can we help them do these things better.

[00:08:22] And then I really love what you're talking about in terms of this hybrid structure where they're using the bots for little pieces and then they're coming together with you to add your human lens on top of that. And I think this is something that's so important to talk about where some people who have expertise based businesses like this think if I outsource that expertise to AI, it makes me less valuable.

[00:08:52] And somehow, whereas I actually feel like it's the opposite. And you're proving that here because now tell me about like the difference before and after in those group calls when your clients came with bot supported steps versus when they came and you were there. You were there for point of support. Yeah, I'll give you a really easy example. If you're if you have an online business, a lot of times you'll hear like, what's your help statement? How do you introduce yourself?

[00:09:19] And I think one of the things we teach is to have a different help statement on various platforms so that you're when people search for you, they find you and the words resonate. But you're you're essentially the same all over the Internet. Like we want to clean up our foundation. And so I always ask people to edit their help statement. And sometimes on a call, you know, when you're in front of like, you know, 10 other people, maybe you don't have an idea. Maybe you don't know what words to use. Maybe you're like, I don't know.

[00:09:48] I think mine is fine. Do I really need to change it? And so one of our like microbots helps you brainstorm is, you know, is this the right help statement for this platform? Is this the right help statement for Instagram or LinkedIn? Or is this the right help statement for the above the fold on your website? And so her name is Ava. She gives you like 10 different examples that you can then bring to the call. And so instead of spending time figuring out what to say, we're reviewing options.

[00:10:16] You have more time with me to figure out, is this the right fit? And so I just found one people are really excited because they're getting through the homework faster because they're able to brainstorm and examples quicker. And they're coming to the calls more prepared. Like how many times do you have homework in a program and you're like, I don't have time to do this. Like I they said it only takes an hour a week, but it's taking me like five hours. It just isn't working for me.

[00:10:45] And so I felt like if I can give you like just a little boost to get you started, then we start to get momentum. You come to the call, we're able to go deeper. And so I've seen people work so much more in depth and more focused than I did when we were just sort of like working through it as like a one off. Totally. And they're they might not have even come to the call. You get nervous. So then they're really not going to get results.

[00:11:14] And that's not what you want. That doesn't do. That doesn't help you fulfill your mission. That certainly doesn't help you get like testimonials to continue to grow your business either. Yes, totally. So amazing. So, you know, another thing that you were talking about, about like how it's a micro tool. Maybe we should, you know, since you brought up Ava. Ava, the audience. Yeah. Yeah, there's all the information with her. Yeah. So Ava, what she does and how it's a little piece of a bigger framework.

[00:11:43] But also I think something that's interesting that I've observed with this whole just like building in the AI space is that it is in fact possible to create a tool that is user agnostic. Right. It does the same thing, but depending on what the user puts into it, it will produce a different output. Right.

[00:12:05] So that is like the concept here where you are, like you said, able to build a program that would be considered very customized in terms of the outcome for the individual. But it's really doing that through a agnostic lens. So maybe like let's like break down what Ava does a little bit and like how you how your clients interact with that to get the results that are different depending on who they are. Yeah.

[00:12:34] So I think that the Asterix here is is micro because this is really hard to do when you're answering like multiple questions. And so our goal for Ava specifically is we're helping you build a help statement and that help statement that we repurpose to different places around the Internet. And so we have built it in a way where we're asking questions about you, your business, which are previous steps in our anti-social school framework.

[00:13:03] So you're building upon the questions that we're asking you and you have the information to share. And so it's not like my voice or my words. It's your voice, your words, your brand. We've taught you how to build that and we've taught you how to really answer the questions that represent you so that she's building off of your words instead of, oh, I built this skill and it's building off of Holly's anti-social school brand.

[00:13:33] Like we don't I don't want my brand in your brand. I want it to be you in your words. And I think because we built it inside Wave, we're able to just get so much more specific about the outcomes that we want. We were able to upload so many more examples of like the outcome that we expect our clients to get. And we just had way more control over the questions instead of like a Claude skill going rogue. And we don't know what's happening.

[00:14:03] Yeah. Yeah. That's actually a good point and something I hadn't necessarily thought to compare. But as you're saying that you're being more structured about what the input is versus a Claude skill will add the context of its entire history with someone as part of the input. So we think that that's a good thing sometimes.

[00:14:29] Sometimes we're like, oh, I need to, you know, upload my entire Claude history or remember when we changed from chat GPT to Claude and we're like, oh, how do I extract all of my memory and my history? Turns out that's actually not that important. If you have the brand calibration piece, if you have that brand context.

[00:14:49] So if you're like, here's what the client needs to bring your brand, which we worked on together, your whatever XYZ other pieces that talk about who your audience is, what kind of business you have and a few reference materials versus the risk of just a Claude skill is actually that it's muddying its context with every other thing.

[00:15:09] Every recipe you've asked for every like, you know, whatever research project or trip that you're planning and whatever else that might be happening there to inside of wave. They have a more focused structure as to what they're trying to do there with the bot squads from antisocial school. Yeah. Yeah, it's really cool. It's really like I said, I don't know another program that structures it this way.

[00:15:33] And I think the one thing I was nervous about was like the tech piece of it, because I worked in technology in my corporate career. And I know that like the onboarding and like getting people used to it. And I think it's been very seamless. It's just a different platform where you're, you know, asking questions. So yeah. Another place for people to have to log in, which is just kind of the case, though.

[00:15:57] So, you know, when you have an online course, you got to go somewhere to get access to that material and whatnot. So, I mean, how do you reconcile that as far as like the friction points for your clients right around what you're offering?

[00:16:16] Well, I honestly think the friction is less than it was because we have, I don't know, like 17 bots or skills baked into antisocial school. And do you have a sign where it's just very, very big? We have every single one of them. Before, it was like a big Google Doc. And it was like, OK, if you want to do this one, go here. If you want to do this one, go here. And so there were lots of places to click. And now there's like two places to click.

[00:16:45] There's, you know, the Wave platform. And then there's Kajabi where our course lives. And so I think the friction is actually less. And it's much easier to remember where things are at. And, you know, I will say the way we designed it is I'm guessing if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably using Claude and you have projects set up and sort of all of the things. Like our goal is that you can take the outcome from these conversations and then load it into whatever you use on a daily basis.

[00:17:14] But they're really these like micro steps to help you come up with the strategy. If you're deep in learning all things AI right now, I have someone you need to know. Monica Froese has spent over a decade building digital products, teaching more than 60,000 students and generating over $8 million in revenue.

[00:17:39] And these days she is one of the clearest voices out there on what it means to run your business on AI instead of just poking at it. I've had the chance to be part of several events inside of Monica's community, the Empowered AI Collective. And every single time I walk away with something I actually use. It's not another AI hype feed. It's real creators sharing real workflows. The stuff that's actually working right now.

[00:18:09] Joining the community is free and Monica is hosting an event called AI Exposed, the Claude Edition. And it runs from August 17th through 21st. Five days of live sessions with creators walking through exactly how they're using AI to sell, automate and scale their business. Attending live is free. You can head to skool.com slash empowered dash AI dash collective.

[00:18:38] And I will drop the link in the show notes for you as well. See you there. Right. So what you're giving is actually like helping them with a foundational piece. Are the tools that you use, are they the kind that people want to come back to on a regular basis? Are they kind of like using them to build pieces and then they they need to come back when they're pivoting?

[00:19:07] Or what would be what would drive them back to use the tools regularly? I think it's both. I think there's a few where, you know, you're just doing a little audience research or you're playing around with like what your help statement is. You may come back to that every once in a while, but that's probably not one you use on like a weekly basis. But there's a handful in there that like help you plan your monthly content or help you pitch podcasts or partnerships.

[00:19:34] Those I would see you coming back to using over and over again. And, you know, the nice part is, is it saves your conversations and it saves your history. And so it's no different than if you were using a different platform. Some of our clients, I'm finding a pattern, which is really interesting because you all have very different expertise. Yeah.

[00:19:56] But part of what I see as a pattern is that your clients, so the clients of our clients, find whatever it is they're engaging with you about to be really heavy lift. So it's like, cool, like I need my full on visibility strategy, my full on marketing messaging, my full on PR plan. Like I need to do something that's really heavy here.

[00:20:19] And so have you found that adding AI to the way that you deliver that is also maybe a friction reducer in terms of it's not as heavy a lift now? A hundred percent. I feel like the, I mean, the questions that come back to me are not like, I don't know where to start, which is a heavy lift for me to be like, okay, well, you need to do this. And then you need to do this. And then you need to do this.

[00:20:45] And I think that's because they're, they're getting information about what to do first and it's easy to follow. I think there's also less friction when we are working like one-on-one and we're talking through ideas. Like, I don't know if you've been on a call or you talk through ideas and they're like, oh, try this thing or try this thing or try these things. And you're like, oh my gosh, you just gave me like 17 things to do. How am I going to fit this in? Right.

[00:21:09] And so because it's easier to test things out or try things out the way that we have given you tools to help you create those ideas. So I think that feels easier as well. For sure. I want to circle back to kind of where we started and the conversation about just to get your perspective, Holly, on how you see online business, online education shifting now that AI is advancing so quickly.

[00:21:39] Yeah. I mean, I think everyone is calling themselves an AI expert and they're not. So just like red flag there. I also think I probably fall into the camp where I feel like I probably could call myself an AI expert given the amount of time and energy I have spent on it. But I don't want to be in the business of like selling AI tools.

[00:22:03] I want to use AI as a way to support and help my clients, but I don't want to be known for here's the 17 skills that I created. And so I think I'm probably getting off track here, but I feel like you have to sort of like choose your lane of which direction do you want to go and how do you want to approach it? But also like lean into the people like Kelly.

[00:22:30] And I know we have a couple of mutual friends who really are AI experts and like watch for a little bit. Right. Like just you don't have to do everything on day one and like what feels aligned to like what you teach and what you sell and what feels good for you. And I think that's what I'm trying to do is I'm pretty technical. That was my corporate background. So it's fun for me to like build and and try things.

[00:22:57] And it felt really aligned to be able to take this to the next level. And so I'm just trying to lean into it feels right. And there's a human component that feels good to me. So we're going to stay on that path. Yeah, that I think there are like two parts of two two sides to answer this question. We'll go in the other one in a minute.

[00:23:17] But but like what you just said is actually reminds me at first when we were putting this together and I was seeing people who were teaching things online and they were starting to add AI. And I was like, oh, this is like what we need to build a thing here.

[00:23:32] And people who are starting to build out these AI communities where they're helping people learn how to use some of the bigger AI tools that are out there, like just like say Claude and and chat GPT, like the big LLMs and interfaces and how to build your whole business around that and whatnot. And I first thought, oh, these are going to be our people who we want to support with Wave. Turns out, I don't think that's actually true.

[00:23:59] I think it's more the you who is a person who wants to still do the thing that they are known for, but not not teach AI, but have AI help them teach. Yes, 100 percent. In the end. And so I think what's an interesting kind of gamble that you and I are both taking at the same time here.

[00:24:18] Hopefully it works out because I put a whole business on it is like is that people who are learning new skills have a certain level of expectation around how AI can be part of that journey for them and part of their learning experience.

[00:24:35] So as to be able to create like so somebody comes to you, Holly, and I'm guessing they're saying, I just started a business and I need to figure out how to really like drive leads and figure out these systems and the strategies. And you're like, yes, I know exactly how to do that. It's called antisocial school. And then they're like, hey, but how hard is that going to be? They're not in your area of expertise.

[00:25:02] So you're like, OK, let me build these AI tools that can ease some of that off so that we really feel confident that you're going to get the results by doing this program. Yeah, 100 percent. I mean, you want your students to get good results and we all are on a time crunch and we're all AI curious. I would say if you're not, I would be surprised.

[00:25:25] And so, you know, it goes back to like, how can I use AI to help me teach and to help my students get better results, but then also not take away that like community human interaction? Mm hmm. And I think that's so important, right? Like that we're doing, I call that human first AI. Yeah. We're still thinking about the important roles of the human in the loop. And honestly, it's why we named Wave Wave.

[00:25:53] We had this whole concept of water and flow and depth and how like when you're using AI or you're outsourcing, I guess, some of what you're doing to AI, it actually allows you to go more into that space. Would you say that's been your experience? Yeah. Yeah, 100 percent. And I feel like I want to be open to like trying new things. I also, the biggest thing for me was protecting our assets, right?

[00:26:21] Like protecting what I have created. And so I feel like that's really what led me here. Yeah, actually, I'd love to hear what some of your thoughts and, you know, your concerns were that with respect to your IP and how you would manage that in this crazy wild, wild west that we're in with AI, right? Yeah. I mean, I'll give another skill.

[00:26:47] Her name is Principal Paige and she is like a big one, right? She does a lot of things. And one of the things that she does, she has like a sister skill that writes podcast pitches and things like that. I've had a podcast for six years. I've been on a lot of podcasts. I get a lot of pitches. I feel like my intellectual property as it relates to podcasting is very strong. And I have a lot of examples.

[00:27:13] But I can't zip that up in a skill and send it over to just anyone and just be like, oh, here, don't worry about the behind the scenes. Don't look at it. And it's not to say that I'm trying to hide it. But like there's certain things that I might do that other people might not do. And so there was really no way for me to protect that without people seeing like all the collateral behind the scenes.

[00:27:38] And so I think being able to import it now into WAVE where we can protect those files makes the skill so much more robust because I'm like, oh, I can add so much more. I can add transcripts. I can add Q&As of my students. Like there's so many things that I can pour behind the background without worrying about someone taking it or listening to it or doing something with it. You wouldn't think people do, but unfortunately they do. Well, truly.

[00:28:06] And if we're in this online business space, like what we have that is of value is our expertise. It is our IP. That's kind of how you make money. That's the whole game. And if you hand it over and just give it to not just the person, but it's how are they going to use that with an LLM, right? And then what happens? What does the LLM do with that? Is it actually storing that data? I mean, it says it isn't, but where does it go?

[00:28:37] Yeah. Having a layer of something in between is definitely what I wanted to be able to provide as well. And that's like the whole reason we even started with WAVE. So, yeah. Amazing.

[00:28:51] I mean, I'm really excited for you to be like one of our founding creators and that people who are coming into your world are getting even more value from antisocial school and what you provide because they have the tools that you have trained. Like you have this whole little like what you said, it was like 17. It's like 17 bots. They're like little people. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:19] Like you have a little team that's helping your people and you're still there and you can still oversee it and all of that stuff. So I'm just so glad that you're a part of this evolution with us and that we can showcase you and what you're doing. Is there anything else that you wanted to add to this conversation?

[00:29:37] No, I just think I'm excited to be like on the forefront of it and I'm excited for the experience that it brings to our customers because like I said, I feel like it's instead of going 17 different places, you're going two places, which feels much more aligned and better. I mean, one thing we didn't talk about is the bots inside WAVE can talk to each other and that can't happen in some of the other platforms.

[00:30:03] And so it's like taking what I thought up and made it even more robust, which has been really fun. Right. Because now you can have step one is talk to whichever bot. And then step three is actually now Ava's using the output from those previous conversations and that context all lives alongside it and creates a more seamless process.

[00:30:31] Yeah. It's basically like I always say bot squads are like a clod skill and a custom GPT and a workflow had a baby. Yeah. And they can they can do all of those things together with that shared context, that user input being different depending on whatever you're asking them to bring to the conversation. Yeah. So I can't wait. We'll have to have you back on the show in a while when you have some examples from your clients and how they're using it and all of that.

[00:31:00] I feel like I want to just acknowledge you one more time, Holly, for being a leader in this evolution of how you're, you know, integrating AI into what you do.

[00:31:13] And if you have any thoughts on like how you like you are a business strategist, you have like all of this expertise in your years and interestingly enough in tech and corporate tech to feed how you look at like these opportunities and decide how did you even decide like, oh, that's the way we're going to go. We need to, you know, we need to be at the forefront of this wave. Yeah. Other kind of way.

[00:31:42] I mean, I mentioned at the beginning, but anti-social school is not a course. And I think the way that we share and sell things online is shifting. And so I just sort of made like a pact with myself. I guess it was like a year and a half ago when chat GPT first came out that I was going to spend time to learn what was coming out, whether or not I use it or not, you know, to be determined.

[00:32:07] But I wanted to be knowledgeable with what was out there, because I feel like if you're not, you're just going to get like eaten alive. I'm being honest. And just because people are doing all this AI stuff now doesn't mean that it's right. But we're just in this like wave of things shifting and changing. And so I just I made a pact to myself that I was going to study it and at least understand what things were out there.

[00:32:37] And I think, you know, when you and I chatted, the intellectual property piece, the being able to like own the things that we created, those all aligned with my like business values. And so that felt like a good fit, which I feel like you would do with any business decision. And so I just I think you have to be as a business owner, you have to be aware of like what things are happening. It doesn't mean you have to do it, but you should understand it.

[00:33:04] Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Like make decisions that are informed by your knowledge of what's available. And I mean, that is sort of part of the challenge of the world that we're living in is that those things are changing so quickly. And there is sort of a requirement to keep on top of certain things to a certain extent.

[00:33:26] And I tell you this because I'm building an AI company and AI and it's just like, oh, my God, this happened and that happened. Now we need to do this. And should we do that? And like, how do you react and respond? And then also like put the blinders on, right? And and focus on what you're doing and be the best at what you do. And ultimately, that's the opportunity here. And I think you're really stepping into it.

[00:33:55] So, yeah, it's been fun. Amazing. Well, tell everyone, Holly, where they can listen to you on your podcast and find you online and find Antisocial School. Yeah. Well, I'm the host of the Crush the Rush podcast. Kelly has been on there before to come take a listen. And the best way to learn more about our bots and how we're using them and and just how we created them even is through a private podcast called the Antisocial Shift. Just hollymariehaines.com forward slash shift.

[00:34:25] We actually have an episode in that private podcast that talks about our bot squad and how we leverage them. So if you like this concept, you can come learn more. And yeah, it goes behind the scenes on like why we built what we built and how we're leveraging it to scale both our clients, companies and our company. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today, Holly. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for listening.

[00:34:53] If this episode got you thinking about how AI is impacting your business and what it might look like to integrate it in a way that actually fits, I'd love to help you think that through. You can book an AI strategy chat using the link in the show notes. It's a space to talk about where you are, what's shifting and how to move forward with intention. And if this episode was helpful, please share it with another business owner who's navigating this evolution too.

[00:35:21] And make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss what's coming next.