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Jonny Imerman was just pursuing a typical career in real estate sales when, at a bar one night, he was suddenly racked with severe pain. He got himself to the hospital where he learned he had testicular cancer. He underwent two years of surgery and chemo. After cancer treatments, he felt he needed to do something outside the typical corporate world. He became the cofounder of Imerman Angels, a worldwide cancer support network to help people and families experiencing cancer. The organization, founded in 2005, now has over 13,000 cancer survivor volunteers who are ready and willing to help anyone who is experiencing cancer who contacts the organization. Recently he formed a B Corp called Cloztalk. This company makes and sells items to support nonprofit organizations. He will tell us about both organizations during this episode. Jonny is truly unstoppable, and he is working to help humanity deal with and survive cancer. This episode is quite informative and certainly, Jonny’s message is important. I hope you find our talk relevant and perhaps it may help you or someone you know. About the Guest: Jonny Imerman grew up in Metro Detroit and shortly after graduating from the University of Michigan, he was diagnosed with advanced cancer & had 2 years of chemo & surgeries. Jonny co-founded ImermanAngels.org, a Chicago-based nonprofit that provides free one-on-one peer cancer support for thousands of cancer families each year in 115+ countries. Jonny also co-founded B Corp CLOZTALK.com, an online store that sells cool, comfy logo-ed clothing like t-shirts, hats, and hoodies to promote your favorite nonprofit. Jonny serves on the boards of Imerman Angels, Above & Beyond Family Recovery Center, Lorenzo’s House, Pickles, Chicago Leadership Alliance, and REELabilities Film Festival. Jonny lives in NYC. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 Hi, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where all sorts of things can happen. Because if you've read the tagline, you know that unstoppable mindset is where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, we get to deal with some of that today. I just learned something. Our guest is Jonny Imerman. And Jonny likes Blazing Saddles, and Young Frankenstein. And that's as good as it gets. So he's got to be a normal person, right? Jonny knows, Jonny Imerman 01:46 well just try to be happy. But his Michael Hingson doing that I'm doing something right. Michael Hingson 01:50 Johnny has started several nonprofits in his life, and has a story to tell that I think is second to none. And I'm really looking forward to learning more about you and the story and all the other things that that go into your life. So let's begin. So Johnny, welcome. And why don't you tell me a little bit about you. You're growing up your life history. And we'll go from there. Michael Hingson 02:16 Awesome. Like, well, thank you so much for having me. Great to chat with you. You're such an easy guy to know, that's for sure. And thanks for all you do and accessing does to help people that have challenges and have disabilities. I mean, it's a it's a beautiful mission and just glad to be a small part of the piece of this. This mission. So quick background about me. You know, I'm from Detroit area. I originally went to University of Michigan College and then just a few years out of Ann Arbor was 26 of hanging out with three guys and girls were in a bar, shooting pool having fun, typical Saturday night, nothing out of the ordinary. And all of a sudden they had pain in my left testicle that was excruciating. It flipped on like a light switch one second. I'm fine. The next second I doubled over I couldn't even handle the pain and doubled over basically a 90 degree angle. And my friends offered to drive me to the hospital and a bullheaded. 26 year old male who's pretty foolish. I said, Oh, guys, I'll figure it out. Don't worry. I don't want to ruin your Saturday night. And I waddled out of the bar because I didn't even end up speaking the pain. And I got finally got in the car and drove myself to the hospital. And basically what happened was I had a doctor running his dance through his hair and saying, Listen, kid, I'm sorry, you're in your 20s. But you have advanced cancer. And it turned out it was testicular cancer, went right into surgery to remove the left testicle. And then after that had the bank sperm most of us are going to be sterile and can't have our own kids. And then the last step by the port surgically inserted into my arm for chemo. And then chemo was about eight hours a day, on average Monday through Friday, the first week of every cycle of chemo, and that kind of obviously stopped me in my tracks and, you know, kind of looked at life a little differently. And I quit my corporate job at the end of that, and a group of young survivors and I met randomly, really at the hospital at the end of it. And we all wanted to give back and we wanted to find purpose and meaning in this crazy experience. And we started a nonprofit 2005 called Imerman's angels, which is a free service where anyone fighting any type of cancer can meet someone who's already been through that same diagnosis and say Been there done that beat it. I know everything you want to know a walk you through the fight, what questions you have, and the whole mission is his peer mentor program. No one fights alone. There's a survivor to help every single one of them who's sick in the fight today. Any type of cancer anywhere in the world. Michael Hingson 05:00 So one of the questions that immediately sort of comes to mind being a curious soul. Why did the pain literally just start, as you said, like turning on a light switch. Michael Hingson 05:11 You know what they do happen, Michael I do now, testicular cancer is the second fastest growing cancer. And they think the tumor actually exploded a nerve, it was pushing through a nerve on the testicle, which caused pain. Now, the stats show that one in 10 people 10% of people have pain with testicular cancer. So I was that one out of 10. So nine others have no pain, and unfortunately, the nine that don't have pain, like if you were anything like me, there was no way you were going to a doctor just to go, that cancer would have kept spreading on my body into my brain and taking my life. But thank God for the pain because it forced me to go in, and it forced me to go have a doctor look at it. You want an ultrasound and make sure what's going on there. But that's what happened. It's a fast growing cancer, it burst a blood vessel and a nerve. And that's where the pain that's what caused the pain. Good question. Michael Hingson 06:14 I have a friend. We haven't communicated for a while, but he was on the streets of Seattle talking to someone who he hadn't seen for a while. And this guy said, I just came from the doctor because I had to have a PSA test. And he said, My level was a little bit high. And they decided that maybe there's some prostate cancer, and they're gonna deal with it. He said, If you ever had a PSA test, and Jack was what in his 40s or more, he said, no, never had one. No, no need to do that. And his friend said, Yes, you do. Well, Jack went to the hospital or to the doctor's office and had a PSA test. His PSA level instead of being like noon or two was 27. And he was diagnosed with for Stage or Stage Four prostate cancer almost immediately. Never expected that never had any symptoms. He was very proactive in terms of dealing with it, studying and learning, alternative medicines and so on. The last time I checked, everything was in remission, which was really great. But still, you don't know. And there's value to those physicals and to doing tests. Michael Hingson 07:33 They guy there, he got in there and found it when he did because one thing about cancer if they don't do anything, or you don't know, it just continues to grow. And it continues to get stronger, and it continues to be more difficult to be. So knowledge is power. And knowledge earlier is always better. And so wonderful. He went in and and yeah, you got to stop this stuff as early as you can. And you got to figure out what's going on your body. Michael Hingson 07:59 Well, I have a brother who we lost to cancer. It started out literally as breast cancer in 2011. And they dealt with it, but then he wouldn't follow through and continue to monitor and a couple of years later it came back and by the time he dealt with it, it had metastasized, and we lost him in 2015, which is very sad. But yeah, it Yeah, he made his choices and I hate to sound cold, but it is really that it's a matter of choice. Michael Hingson 08:30 Yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that it is you gotta go in you gotta get checked. You gotta know what's happening. Because people ask me this all the time. Like all they're like, well, didn't you feel a little bit of something before the pain. And I felt zero until the night and the bar when I felt the pain at that instant when the blood vessel burst or the nerve burst. And the cancer had already spread from my testicle, pelvis, abdomen, all my lymph nodes behind my kidneys, almost in my lungs, and I felt zero. So just like your friend with, you know, having advanced and high PSA, he didn't know either he didn't feel so you gotta go in regularly once a year on average, if it's cancers in your family, then you gotta go even more often, maybe once a year. Michael Hingson 09:19 Well, I have not fortunately had cancer. I had a, I had a gallbladder situation in 2015 that suddenly I felt pain. And literally, it was a Thursday night and all of a sudden it started to hurt. And I went oh, this really is in the area where there might be a gallbladder. My father and my brother both had to have their gallbladders removed years ago. I didn't even think anything about it. But literally the pain as you said turned on. And so I went and when we dealt with it and the gallbladder was removed the next week with a totally different and amazing kind of surgery. He compared to what they went through where they had a big scar and all that this was all done through laparoscopy, and so on. And it was it was very, I won't say simple, no operation is simple, but it was very straightforward and was removed not much of any kind of scar or anything. And so that's fine. We move on. Michael Hingson 10:18 Glad you got it out arrow, a really nice kitchen component. If your dad and your brother and you all have something with a gallbladder Thank God you were that's also knowledge, right? You knew from family that there was something with that organ and, and it comes to you and you jumped right on it. And analogy definitely. Michael Hingson 10:39 Yeah, knowledge is absolutely power. And the other side of or the other part of it is knowledge and power. Lead to if you listen and think about it, they also lead to good choices. You can't deny it. None of us really should deny that kind of thing happening. Michael Hingson 10:59 Yeah, yep. So that is the truth. Michael Hingson 11:03 Well, tell me a little bit. So first of all, what were you doing corporate wise before you, you left your corporate job? Michael Hingson 11:10 Oh, I used to work in commercial real estate and a horse you die every day. Very different world. 2627 28 through three, that's really when I made a lot of different decisions. And what I wanted out of life really hung up the student tie for good. And 28. You know, we launched merman angels are nonprofit. And then later, we started a B Corp that actually makes T shirts and ask for every casual group no more suits no more times I only once Mike. My goal was to wear it once a year or less, hopefully zero times. Michael Hingson 11:51 I don't mind a suit and tie. And when I speak I wear a suit and tie and I don't mind. And if I had to go back to wearing a suit and tie because I was somewhere where it was more the the way of life. I could live with it. But I do enjoy mostly not having a suit and tie on and working from home, I'd love to tell people that it's really easy for me to get to work, I walk out one door the bedroom and walk into my other door, which is my office and there I am. And that's a lot of fun. But I think there's value in in being around people when you can and that's the operative part. It's like COVID, right? Everyone or so many people talk about zoom, tolerance and zoom. Not fear, but just fatigue and all that. And I'm sitting there going why is that such a big issue, given the alternatives? And again, it's choice. Jonny Imerman 12:45 Yes, yes. You know if that's true, it definitely definitely is. Sorry, I lost it for one quick second. I put it on mute. I apologize for a little background, Alex here. That's what I can hear you. Michael Hingson 12:59 So So tell me a little bit more about Emerman. Angels. And it is is it still around? What does it do? How long did you have it before you moved on to adding some other things and so on? Jonny Imerman 13:13 Absolutely. So Michael Imerman. Angels, we started No, really, two or three, that was just a bunch of volunteer survivors. And oh, five and six, we became a full 501 C three nonprofit. I lived in Chicago for 15 years before New York. So it's still based. In Chicago, we have 13 full time people. And we manage this network that we've been very fortunate to recruit over 13,000 cancer survivors of all different types of brain cancer, lung cancer, bone, cancer arm and any type. And we manage the group. And we reach out to cancer centers and people all over the world who can find us and we'll pair you up with someone who had the exact same form of cancer, same age, same genders and cancers and everything. But yes, I'm an angel is going strong, fortunately. And we're helping 1000s of people a year. And the reason it works, Michael is the gratitude of the survivors they care. They want to help and want to give back they want to share their story, because they're giving up their time and their energy for no pay. And really nothing no, you know, publicity. They're doing this simply because they just want to give back and help other people. Michael Hingson 14:33 So it is it is still running. Jonny Imerman 14:37 Yes, it is still running. Fortunately, we hired a CEO. And the CEO actually runs our organization for us every day, but it's more of like a recruiter now and they'll do like some speeches for us and just anything on the outside. But the smart people are on the inside. So I just flipped people back to the inside and let our team really handle it but we've hired Have a really great team. And we have a wonderful CEO, who runs the organization. We're grateful we're the biggest group in the world of cancer survivors who are a community to mentor one on one. We're in over 115 countries that we can help people and have survivors in. So it is still going on. If anyone knows anyone touched by cancer, who is alone, somebody you care about, just send them the Imerman Angels that already and they can sign up online or team will reach out, we'll make sure that new survivors are trained, who want to give back and will help those that are sick, who want to reach a survivor like them. But yeah, it's up and running and has been since. Oh, 506, really, as a formal 501 C three nonprofit, we got a great board and a passionate group of very enthusiastic for the survivors. But no one should fight without knowing someone who has actually been through this stuff before. Michael Hingson 15:55 And Imerman is spelled Jonny Imerman 15:56 Imerman is spelled I M E R M A N Angels. And I apologize, Michael and everybody for the difficult name. And I'm actually name this. We've just started meeting my survivor buddies. And I was in my late 20s, and I became buddies with all these young adults, survivors. And while giving back and mentoring, and my mom's like, your friends are like angels. They're so selfless, they want to give back now people on it, you call it Imerman angels, and we never thought we were gonna take it this far. And it just kept growing and the need was so strong. That's why it's called terminators, my mom named it otherwise would have picked something simpler, easier and harder, and kind of says what we do, Michael Hingson 16:39 I don't think it's a difficult name at all. And it's a very accurate description of what you do. And I think that when you're dealing with an organization, and you're naming it, you should name it with something that's relevant. So Imerman angels is very apropos. So I'm glad that you're, you're calling it that, and congratulations, and God bless your mom. Jonny Imerman 17:01 Thank you, like on YouTube, God bless you, man, and all the good work you're doing in the disability space. But we're really grateful as cancer survivors that we can do something to make a difference, you know, these stories really can help people. Michael Hingson 17:14 So you are doing this all over the world with all types of cancer? And do you do you find from time to time that you get new either kinds of cancers, or although you have a lot of people new expertise that you didn't have before, as since it's a growing organization? Jonny Imerman 17:34 Yeah, you know, it's a really good point you bring up we're always recruiting new survivors, because there's so many different types of cancer out there. And there's so many rare people that get a rare cancer out there. And they're super isolated. And there's always new treatments, you know, there might be a brand new treatment that wasn't here three years ago, but it is this year. So we have to have a survivor who's had that treatment. Because when some seconds to take that treatment, we need those out, he was actually a hatchery. And so we're always recruiting, we're always talking to people, we're always finding new people. And never stop that. It's a recruiting machine. Every survivor can be a part of it and help. So we're constantly looking for more and more people. We have 13,000 people, we could have 13 million plus people. But they're all great. And everyone matters. And it's such a good example, Michael, have the power is in the team, the powers and the community, right? And all of us are working together for one bit with one big community, then everyone's going to find a match. But we don't know is it going to be this person or that person today? We don't know. But if everyone's in the community, and everyone's registered, then we can Michael Hingson 18:49 really help the most people. How do you match people? So somebody goes to Imerman angels.org. And they sign up and you said that somebody reaches out to them? What happens then Jonny Imerman 19:03 what happens then is they sign up online, usually the easiest way or they can call us they can do that too. When people sign up online, the easiest way to do it, what we do is our team will call them or set up a zoom assure in a country far away. We set up a zoom, we chat with them we get to know them we what kind of cancer do you have? Where are your fears? What treatments are you going through? I think we learn about them. And then we really ask them that's really the kicker Michael is now who would be the best fit for you someone your age, someone that beat the same cancer. Someone is both someone your race someone your gender, you know, we ask people what would be the best fit for them. And then once we figure out what that is, then our team goes through this community this big community online finds the best part sent in our system to match them with and then we simply just make a very simple introduction, we say, you know, okay, Mike, you're going through colon cancer stage three, we know somebody that lives in Miami, and they beat stage three colon cancer, his name's Larry, you got to know Larry did it four years ago, and walk you through everything. But we use tech to manage the database to basically have a community and know where people are. But we make a very normal introduction, we talk to both sides, and then we send a join email to get everybody connected in the end. Michael Hingson 20:35 And then what happens, then Michael Hingson 20:37 the question is up to them how they want to engage, it's totally up to them how they want to, they want to talk and how they want to engage. So, you know, they may say, I, you know, they may say, I want to talk once a week, they may say, I just want to talk once in a while, they may want to email, they may want to zoom, it's actually completely up to them, how they want to interact. And we leave it very open, very open to them. Usually, the survivor is the one that makes the decision how they're going to talk and how they're going to connect. And it's all person. Yeah, kind of molded to the person that's looking for support. Michael Hingson 21:25 But the whole point is, it is a support network. So it's not a medical thing where people give medical advice, although How do doctors get involved? And do Do people ever want to talk with doctors through the system? Does that happen? Or is it more peer? To peer support? Michael Hingson 21:43 Yeah, no, we get a ton of referrals from the doctors, you're exactly right. The doctors, nurses, social workers, they're the ones that send people to us. So that's where they come from out of them. But you gotta make friends with the facts, you got to convince the doctor that we have researched everyone we've talked to everybody and we know, sort of are you really know are people we know, questions that they asked. And so it's, it's really, it's a very, it's gotta be vetted, there's got to be training, we got to know all our people. That's really important. Because if you don't have the buy in from the doctors, and you don't trust, that these people who are sick are going to be able to, you know, have a good experience, and we're not going to give them medical advice, we're just going to be friends and supporters and arm them with questions, then you're not going to get the bind the doctor learn that, you know, in the early days, you know, we can't give medical advice, we coach that. Gotta make sure that our that our mentors, you know, our friends, sharing a lot, their story, they're supportive, they're loving, the caring, they, they they relate, they tell stories, they they blaze the road, that they don't tell people what to do with always go to the doctor in terms of what treatment to take to very important that you're going up. Because we're not doctors, we can't coach them what they should take. Michael Hingson 23:12 Do Doc's ever volunteer and become a part of the organization in that way. Michael Hingson 23:17 We're definitely we've had many doctors volunteer, we've also have Michael, we've got a group. It's a board, really, it's a medical advisory board of doctors, nurses, social workers, and they're incredible. They're all over the country, they help. They help us build our training manual, they help a lot of ways. But no doubt about it. You got to have the doctors on your team, you got to learn from them. You got to figure out from them, you know what's important, and how to make this thing work best. But you got to partner with the hospitals and the doctors for sure. Michael Hingson 23:51 How large is the staff Michael Hingson 23:54 13 We have 13 full time people, our budgets about $1.5 million a year. So we're, you know, small, medium sized nonprofit. But it's big enough to be able to manage the network so far. But of course, one day, you know, we want to have more people or we could, you know, be able to help more people because we have to pay people full time who answered the calls, who reach out who do the trainings, that's a big part of our costs are biggest part of our classes are people. Michael Hingson 24:26 Yeah. And the the database and so on, obviously is a cost but it's it's sensible. And it makes perfect sense that people are the the largest part of of the cost that you have to undertake and you got to pay people because people need to to have support financial support to to be involved in this in one way or another as staff members. Michael Hingson 24:50 That's exactly right. I mean, we pay people full time because they're going to be on the phones all day, and they're going to be helping people comforting people introducing them to other survivors. training new survivors managing the database. Exactly. So it's, it's not rocket scientists on this one on the program. But I will say there's a lot of moving parts. And sometimes somebody has a recurrence that we have to know that if they're registered survivor on our system, and then we want to reach out to them again to the mentor, but last week at occurrence and cancers back leg, you got to check in first before him before you hook them up together, there's a lot of moving parts. And you got to talk to people to learn who they really want to connect to, that can be tricky, too, Michael Hingson 25:39 are the paid staff members, cancer survivors, so necessarily, some Jonny Imerman 25:44 of them are now we do have some, it used to be all of them in the beginning, they were all survivors. And then sort of as we've grown, we have family members and caregivers. It's sort of a mix of a bunch of different people. We definitely do have some survivors on board. Yeah. Michael Hingson 26:03 But then you've got 13,000 volunteers, which as you said, is also part of the moving parts of of what you do. Jonny Imerman 26:10 Zack, managing them go keeping in touch with them and keeping them engaged when they're not monitoring. That that is also a challenge that we have not solved. We do our best at keeping in touch with the people. But it's tricky, because a lot of people in the system, Michael Hingson 26:27 how did COVID affect what Imerman angels is doing? Jonny Imerman 26:33 So COVID has been good, from some ways, I feel for all the families have gone through COVID. It's been a crazy couple of years. But it's taught us that we can really work remotely. And our team right now is hybrid, there's a few going into the office in Chicago, but a lot of them are just staying home. So it's really taught us that we can work really well together without working together every single day. So it hasn't slowed us down. The part. That's the craziest Michael is that fewer people have reached out during kirpan than they did pre COVID. And we think the real answer to that reason to that is because they, they simply, you know, they simply had their families and they have people around them. So they were able to have more support. So I think they called us a little less often than they did before. And that was a little tricky. We were just surprised, we thought we were gonna get a ton of calls during COVID. But a lot of people were with their families in their pod. And maybe they felt like they had more support. So they just simply didn't call us as often. But that's all coming back now. And I think numbers are going to come back up to where they were before. Michael Hingson 27:52 Yeah, because in some senses, at least, with the immunity or with the extra strength that vaccinations offer. More and more people feel comfortable about going out a little bit Michael Hingson 28:06 more. Exactly, exactly. That's for sure. And things like cancer, you know, you do have an immune deficiency. That's right. I mean, you got to be really careful if you have cancer, and you're on chemo and your white blood cell counts down. And then now you get something like COVID I mean, it can much more easily kill people. It's it's a tricky combination those things together. Michael Hingson 28:30 Yeah, it does make it a challenge. But you have a great passion for this. And you've allowed your passion to help you move forward and form Emerman angels and that's good, because it's a need that needs to be filled. But you've moved on and you've also formed another organization. Tell us some about that, if Michael Hingson 28:52 you would. Yeah, we have to so we got excited Michael about spreading the word for Imerman Angels because the more we got the word out, the more survivors out there found us join the network, and started helping people. And we came up with this idea that nonprofits really make cheap $2 bright green T shirts with way too much stuff on it that Nobody wears this stuff. And we're like we're gonna make cool shirts that people actually rack in the city and talk about us and wear to the gym. And we learn if we did white on black super simple. Just the logo enough to spark curiosity and spark a question on a really high quality t shirt that we could make it make it make it a brand's make you something you want to wear, and it's got to fit you well. And so we started making Imerman Angels one black shirts, that our friends are rocking at the gym or a sports game or walking their dog in the city. And lo and behold these conversations sparked in the word out and it brought us everybody we needed including donor Are people that use the program, people that volunteer, and we started a B Corp with a company called closed box Clos, the talk at COC talk.com is our website. And basically what it is, it is a one site where anyone can go. And you can learn and search about all these hundreds of nonprofits that are out there, watch the video, learn the mission inspired, find something new to you. But then at the same time, you can shop right there on the site, right when you like some things that I want to buy there, or I want to buy their teacher, I want to buy a hoodie, it's right there. And we make them on demand. And we dropship them right to you about four and a half days or average order to arrive at your door. Everything we make very high quality, and looks cool. It's all white on black or white and gray. And we want to inspire people to rock the logo of good causes, rather than wearing a Nike swoosh or an Under Armour symbol, or Dallas Cowboys. And that's okay, if you want to rock that. But you could be great. And you could rock a cause that actually helps people. And that actually, you know, gets movements out there. And it's a question that people are going to ask when they see in that shirt. And you can say, this is my favorite cause. And this is why and here's what they do. Because maybe someone who needs that program is going to hear about it because somebody else knows about it. It's all about awareness, awareness through apparel. Michael Hingson 31:29 Well, to start the corporation, you obviously had to start learning and developing a knowledge about it, which says a lot about you that you want to continue to learn and evolve. So, Mr. Expert, what is a V Corp? Jonny Imerman 31:46 Well, I'm I don't know x my expertise. But I will tell you, I've learned a lot. So a B Corp is the highest level certification that your company it is a business for your for profit company is a movement for social good. If the highest level of ethics in the highest level of sustainability, and social impact of anything out there, there's 1500 B corpse in the US and about 3500 outside the US about 5000 total. And it's really a movement of more sustainable ethical businesses who care. So we don't make apparel and run Shopify stores and sell stuff for companies or sports teams or anyone else. It's all nonprofits, its movements and causes that truly make the world better. Our packaging is 100%, recyclable, things like that, you know, we need to prove to become a B Corp that we care about the planet, we care about people, plants, pets, everything, you know, we care about all these causes, we are in the mission of solving a social problem. But we still want it like a business. That's why it's a B Corp, not a nonprofit. Michael Hingson 32:59 So it is actually in some senses. And I don't mean this in a negative way. But it is a profit making company because it has have to support itself. Jonny Imerman 33:08 That is 100% true, you know, we're not even profitable yet. So technically, I wouldn't even call me it is a for profit, technically. But it's not for profit for anyone yet, because we're still trying to cover our costs. And we're in year four and a half. But we've doubled sales between one year one and year two, and year two and year three, and then a percent we increase between three and four. So we're hoping this year to be able to cover our costs Michael, and then we can make a profit business where right we can live on it and be sustainable. Right now. We're living on savings that can last forever. So we're excited to make this sustainable and get to do what we love, and drive this mission home that we love. And then once we're profitable, in addition to the branding for the causes and getting their logos on more bodies 20% of our profits, we donate to our causes. So we're also going to help fund them when we get there Michael Hingson 34:08 are the causes all cancer related? Jonny Imerman 34:11 They're all over the board. So it could be helping people with disabilities. We have a group in Chicago called dare to try or anyone who's lost a limb. They teach you how to do tries, any sort of physical disability show, literally triathlons. We have groups that help animals. We have groups like Feeding America, which probably everybody knows the second biggest one in the country. Solving food insecurity could be anything helping the homeless and anywhere in the United States. Michael Hingson 34:45 So they're they're keeping you busy. How how big guard our sales are is the cost right now how big is the corporation? Jonny Imerman 34:53 So we are most we have over 400 nonprofits, and the most that we've seen sold in a year, which we're on pace probably this year to do about 200, for Feeding America 200 items. And the number, that's number one and number two, and number three are probably around 180 150 items for the year. So and then some of the causes will only sell maybe five years or so something like that much lower. So it's still lower than we want. But we knew that going in, you know, we have to be creative to drive people to our site, to allow them learn about vetted trustworthy, great causes, but then also take the next step to buy. But our big idea to really get this thing going and help more classes. And better is we are getting companies to allow group buy for their employees, and they buy one item for employee, and then every employee gets to pick their favorite nonprofit from our list. And then Geez, that work now becomes jeans day for purpose, because you're wearing a t shirt or a hat for your favorite cause in addition to jeans. And now it's something you know, bigger than just jeans day. Right? And so we're gonna get many, many more companies who are going to invest in this invest in their people and their causes. And it sparks conversations in the office about what's your favorite cause? Why? Michael Hingson 36:18 How does class talk? And or how do class talk and Imerman angels kind of interrelate to each other. Jonny Imerman 36:26 So Imerman angels is on closed dock. It's one of our nonprofits that on close talks. So we have 400 plus, and any nonprofit you gotta be a 501. C, you you basically get a page on closed Doc site. So when you go to closed Doc site, you can search and find all these nonprofits, but incriminated was one of them. It's one that they do sell on our site. Michael Hingson 36:53 But they're separate organizations totally separate. Michael Hingson 36:56 Ones a 501 C, three Imerman Angels, closed dock as a B Corp totally separate books. Solely separate things. That's true. Michael Hingson 37:06 How do nonprofits learn about close talk? Michael Hingson 37:10 So we reach out to a lot of them. We know quite a few because we've been in the space for almost 20 years. But at this point we have the one people that we do now are already with us pretty much. And we reach out we're constantly asking our friends, you know, tell us about great missions, who should we be helping? Should we partner with? So we use social media, word of mouth LinkedIn, we find some break as friends just reading an article and you're reading about a great new cause. Like that's one way one on our site. We can help make T shirts cooler so we do a lot We pound pavement we hustle that's for sure Miko Well, one Michael Hingson 37:52 thought I have if you haven't connected and I obviously haven't looked yet at clothes talk.com but would be the National Federation of the Blind, which is the largest consumer organization of blind people might be something worth looking at. Michael Hingson 38:04 We would love to work with that organization. We don't yet. And I think we reached out to them, but we didn't know anyone there. So we haven't connected with them yet. But that's a wonderful organization and needs to grow and want to make their tissues as cool as possible. And that's the goal. We help them all. And again, I want to underscore it's free for the nonprofits. They don't have to build a tech, they don't have to stack the inventory. They don't have to drive the traffic even you know, it's all on us and find ways creatively to drive traffic to our site so people can learn about these causes do it. So that way the nonprofit if they want to promote it to their own people, they can, but it's never required. They can focus on their service and the mission. That's the most important thing for them. Michael Hingson 38:54 Well, being a prejudiced kind of guy. I'm more of a polo shirt guy than a t shirt guy. Our polo shirts available. Jonny Imerman 39:01 We do my Kobe. Oh good. Yeah, polos, so we've got polos. Michael Hingson 39:06 I like polos with pockets Jonny Imerman 39:09 there we go, we do and we're if there's no there's not a pocket but we looked at other bolos add a couple of different styles because what we have now is like a polo more of a golf shirt. Doing some that are all cotton, that are might have a pocket on the ones we're looking at. But we're always adding new items. You know the store is the same store 16 items right now for all of our causes, but we're always adding new ones on there so we appreciate your Jonny Imerman 39:39 feedback we take all that helps helps us get better we just want to give them what they're gonna wear. Michael Hingson 39:44 That's right in front of right in front of everyone, you know polos with pockets, but that's my prejudice. I just like those shirts. I like pockets on shirts. So yeah, that's for sure. That's that's me. But you you continue to really evolved these corporations and I would be interested to hear where you see both Emerman angels and close tech in over 10 years. Jonny Imerman 40:12 No Imerman angels, we'd love to see hundreds of 1000s Maybe millions of survivors in one big community giving back. And people that would be beautiful to see that happening in increasing the community, helping you know, hundreds of 1000s or millions of people one day, and in 10 years clothes, we love to be able to walk out the streets in New York, LA, San Francisco, Seattle, you name it. And like two out of five people a rock and a hat, or a t shirt or polo, for a cause that they love. And we want to make it mainstream, you feel good about yourself, you feel like you're volunteering just by being you know why wear a plain white shirt or a plain black shirt, when you could be great, you could be rocking something that matters. That's our main vision that we see as this is going to be mainstreamed for people to wear. Michael Hingson 41:10 So how big is the clothes tech staff, Jonny Imerman 41:12 very small, my brother, myself, my brother's my best friend, it's him and me. And we have a third minority partners. We haven't even hired anyone yet. And we're just grinding it out little by little, but we are going to hire hopefully sooner than later, you know, when we get some profit. And we're able to afford that we'd love to be able to hire more people to help. Michael Hingson 41:35 Well, and you and your brother work well together. And that's always a good thing we do Jonny Imerman 41:39 we get along great, you know, occasionally a little bit of heat in the kitchen, but that's part of it, you know, like any relationship. But overall, we see things very similarly, we both have the same goals. The trust is always there. And he's my best friend. So very lucky for that. Michael Hingson 41:57 Have you had any other incidents of cancer, or just the testicular cancer, Michael Hingson 42:02 testicular cancer. But after I finished all my chemos Michael, I was clear. And then about a year later at a checkup, CAT scan that found for tumors by my kidneys, sort of by my spine, really, and in front of the spine, I guess I should say. And behind the kidneys, they were in a weird spot. So we had to go in through one more vertical incision, one more big surgery through my abdomen is 11 inches long from the sternum down to the pubic bone. And I had to move my organs out of the way, like pick them up with their hands and move them and get to the tumors, cut them out, put the organs back in, stitch the stomach muscle, and then 60 staples up and down vertically. So that was my last bout. 2003 is when it all ended. But yeah, it was. It was a journey. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I mean, cancer can come back. One thing I believe is when you're helping other people and you're focusing on your mentees, you sort of release fear of a comeback. And you don't think about it as much you don't as scared of it anymore. Because you're so focused on helping somebody that's really sick right now, and doesn't know if they're going to make it. Michael Hingson 43:18 Yeah, he's your brother had any experience with cancer? Personally, no, Michael Hingson 43:22 no, you know, just as being a caregiver to me and my mom. But now fortunately, both of them are okay. Never had a problem that got they're totally safe. Yeah. Michael Hingson 43:34 Which is, which doesn't mean at all that he isn't empathetic and understanding clearly he is because the two of you work together and you enjoy each other's company. And that's always a relevant part to the process. Michael Hingson 43:47 That is that definitely is it takes a team, it takes a village to get through this stuff. It's not easy, but you get through it. But I think a lot of us feel like myself, if you're going to go through cancer go through young, and you have more of your life afterwards, to live more enlightened more. With a focus more with purpose, you want to make a difference. You want to be kind, you want to really look away at the end of life and say how many people that I positively affect in my life. And I think a lot of us as cancer survivors, especially the ones, that's how we think are their impact. What footprint Are we leaving? Michael Hingson 44:28 Are there any kinds of cancers that even when you diagnose them early? aren't things that you can stop or kids can pretty much you say, universally, that if you catch it early, you can stop it and live a meaningful and long life? Jonny Imerman 44:44 Yeah, that's almost all cancers. If you catch it early, you can get it out from the roots. And that's the goal is to get it out from the roots. So if you catch it early, that's the key. Now there are some that are just dead. recall it starts in the brain, it's just difficult based on the tissue around it. But if you still get it early, and it's smaller, it might be a minor surgery or a little radiation. And you're able to save so much of the brain or all the brain and save someone's life. But early detection is key. Being aware of your body going in, if you feel something, those are all really, really important things. Michael Hingson 45:24 I think we've kind of covered it, but still, what do you advise everyone to do regarding cancer? Michael Hingson 45:33 i Yes, we did talk about it. But go in, get checked once a year. If it's in your family get checked more than once a year. Educate people get your friends to go in, like getting checked. And making sure things are clear is the best way to save your life. Michael Hingson 45:52 I will say from experience I do go in I guess it's now every 10 years to do colonoscopies and people say how horrible they are? Well, the prep is, is a whole lot worse than the colonoscopy because you tend to sleep through it. But yeah, it is it is such a necessary thing to do. And then every year we do colorguard tests, my doctor has prescribed those and I gather that's a pretty successful and meaningful way to to potentially see a lot of cancers that might happen or rule out the fact that you have any. Jonny Imerman 46:29 Yes, yes, I mean, knowledge is power. I'm glad you're on headlight color, you're in the know, and you're educated. I mean, the more you educate yourself on this stuff, that is truly how we save lives. Michael Hingson 46:45 Yeah, that's what we have to do. In order to make sure that we we take no chances with all of this, which is really important. That's right. So it's, it's really exciting that you and your mission exists in are helping so many people. I don't remember whether you said the number, but how many people do you think you serve in the course of a year as people who come to you and say I have this cancer or I'm concerned about the cancer that I might have. And so it's Michael Hingson 47:20 1000s of families reach out to us every year, it's somewhere in the ballpark of 3500 to 4000. families a year on average will find us and reach out. And we probably pick up about 1000 new survivors every year. And family members, I do want to mention, you know, we do help the family members, like let's say it's someone who loses their spouse to cancer, and they're only 30 years old, and they have a small child, you know, we can introduce that person to another person who says I'm 35. And when I was 30, I also lost my spouse to cancer. And I have a small child. And here's how I got through it. Nobody should go through this alone where the caregiver, the caregiver, or the person that's in the fight to a survivor. Michael Hingson 48:08 So with all that you're doing, do most survivors that connect with you then become volunteers for the organization and are available or is out of 13,000 people or the people who have stayed with you. Jonny Imerman 48:24 Yes, I mean, the large, large majority of people who we help and hook them up with a mentor, they're going to beat it. And then they're going to say I want to mentor It's my turn now to give back in as a beautiful thing. You know, they care, they they're grateful. They want to help the next person there really is, is it's like an engine that that kind of feeds on itself. And it Michael Hingson 48:49 doesn't really get any better than that, because you've got so many people who want to give back and, and do it. And, you know, I would say the whole thing a little bit differently than you. I would hope that we find some cures for some of this cancer at some point in the near future. So that the number of volunteers you have to have and the number of people who are involved gets to go down because cancer is less, but we're not there yet. Jonny Imerman 49:14 Yep. Yeah, that's exactly right. We are not there yet. You know, if you look at stats, every year, Michael, the survival rate goes up 1%. So 40 years ago, it was about a 30 35% survival rate of cancer full years later today. It's about in the 70s. It's about 74 75% of people who can repeat it every year. So research and all the good work that they're doing in the lab, and all the new treatments. It's about that increases survival rates 1%. So eventually we are going to get there. Michael Hingson 49:54 How much of the increase in survival rate comes from just the medical treatments as opposed was to catching it early. Jonny Imerman 50:03 That's a good question. I don't know that exactly. I do know this that did you get it early, you're way, way, way ahead of beating it. That is for sure. I don't know exactly though. I mean, a lot of it, of course has to do with new treatments I know with for my cancer, testicular cancer, it was in the 70s. And before, 90 plus percent of people died with this cancer. And in the late 70s, early 80s, a dyadic, dn hospital, Larry einhorn invented, created this chemo. And it really flipped the numbers. Now, it's gotta be something like 80 90% of guys, which is the direct answer, do beat it. Again, you gotta get it early. But overall, 80 to 90% Michael Hingson 50:58 of them will beat it. Which, which is, is pretty important and relevant to be able to address but it's still, it's an it's a complex solution. It's not just oh, you can go get medical treatment, it is being aware, catching it early. And then dealing with it and not allowing yourself to go into denial. 100%, Jonny Imerman 51:21 catching it early, not going into denial. Being afraid to go to the hospital is a dangerous thing. We always say as survivors that doctors not going to give you cancer, you're not going to give it to you either have it or you don't. So you might as well figure it out now and find out. You got to know but you're not going to get it you're not going to catch it from going to a cancer one of the doctor, Michael Hingson 51:42 that's a good thing. That's a good thing. That's a really good thing. Is cancer mostly genetic? Or why do people get it? Is it just most Michael Hingson 51:53 researchers, Michael that I know and I know quite a few over the years, because they all send us patients but they say a 5% genetic, much smaller than most people think 95% of what we do socio environmental. And if you take that 95% and make that one whole pie. Two thirds of that is one thing, which is diet. And most The researchers say that it's just not known enough. But what we eat makes it very a lot of logic, very logical to a lot of people is going to filter into our bloodstream and become our bodies. So it got to eat as healthy as it can and as clean as you can. It's Whole Foods free from pesticides and chemicals. There's no doubt about it. That's the number one overall factor in something like cancer. Michael Hingson 52:47 So what are good diets? Jonny Imerman 52:49 You know, I don't want to impose my views because this is their own but I will say after everyone I've met and all the researchers I know most residual I know they are vegans, I've been vegan myself for 1415 years. I rice beans, vegetables, now it's through and I don't do any and there's no doubt about that. Like there's there's a lot of research especially with colon cancer and colon stuff that that is just lesser lesser chance of developing cancer especially colon but you know again, that's my personal views if somebody likes a good burger if they immediately are happy to eat a steak I get it or chicken or fish whatever it is you I would just save this if you love it just try to do it in moderation and do it or anything every day with meat. Michael Hingson 53:48 But is it the meat or is it the additives and the pesticides or the the other things that is put into the meat that's really the issue? Michael Hingson 53:57 I personally think and again, I'm not an expert but everything that I heard it's a little bit of both the animal protein but it's mostly the additives and it's what happens to these animals antibiotics that are pumped with and and things because it becomes a business and the bigger the animals the more the more you know meat there is to sell and unfortunately that's how it is a lot of stuff pumped in and antibiotics or growth hormones or whatever to make the animals bigger and we can plants you got to be a little careful still with Indian pesticides and so forth. Michael Hingson 54:37 But certainly the issue is ultimately eat higher quality food look for the the food whether it's meat or not, then doesn't use a lot of pesticides and so on. And that isn't guaranteeing that you won't contract but your chances go up of remaining more healthy. Jonny Imerman 54:58 Yes, yeah. us absolutely your chances go up. And if you're not sure middle of the road in, if someone's eating steak every day, three meals a day, I don't think that's a great idea personally, for me, yeah. But you're middle of the road when in doubt. And you just try to lean I think on a war budget, vegetable diet and as Whole Foods and as organic as Michael Hingson 55:24 I know, my wife, Karen and I tend to, if we have meat, and we do some, but it's it dinner, and we portion control it. And we are eating pretty high quality stuff, as opposed to just going buying the best price at the store and things like that. But we, we for lunch, we usually eat not some cheese and fruit. And for breakfast, it's high end oatmeal or a bagel. And with a little bit of butter on it. And so there there are things that possibly could be improved. But by the same token, we're monitoring it pretty closely. And again, we go in for all the physicals and so on, that I think we're very concerned about heart healthy carry has had some family members with it. And of course, I mentioned my brother and other things like that. So we're, we're sensitive to it. And I think everyone should be sensitive to it. Jonny Imerman 56:19 I totally agree. I mean, what's more important than your health? If you're not healthy? How can you help anybody else? Or take care of your kids or your family? You got it, you should be smart about it. No doubt? 56:31 Well, I think it makes perfect sense all the way around. I can't leave without talking about how we met, which was on a webinar with accessiBe, which was a lot of fun. In is it Imerman angels that uses accessiBE? 56:45 We do. We're very grateful. So close talk has it too close, or too great. Yeah, so close together, too. And thank you, Michael, for all you do for accessibe in the accessibe team, they've just become friends. And I love the mission of an all accessible internet for as many people as we can for 2025 I just think it's such a positive mission company. And it's really a B Corp minded company, and rootin for you guys always so love, which you do 57:17 well, and we're having a lot of fun doing it, educating people. And there's a lot to learn about the internet. And we're learning a lot about how to communicate, as well. But we do appreciate people like you who are out there who are using it, and telling the world that again, it's all about some social consciousness. And what happens with accessibe accessibe is a very conscious company regarding the world SSB also makes itself available free of charge for nonprofits, which is really kind of cool. Michael Hingson 57:49 Really, really cool. I mean, for any nonprofit in the disability space, I know they're totally free. And so we told a lot of our disability nonprofits about accessibe and they signed up and now they have an accessible website, especially because there's been people with disabilities. So yeah, yeah, really good stuff there. Michael Hingson 58:11 And whatever doesn't work with the access or automated widget, excessively is there to help make the rest of it accessible to which is part of the social conscious of consciousness of the organization? Jonny Imerman 58:24 Yeah, really is. It's, it's a great group, and they're passionate in there. They're fired up. And it's a mission that matters. So what a great company to get behind. Michael Hingson 58:35 And we got to meet you. Yeah, I Jonny Imerman 58:36 got to meet you. Like your story is great. And I enjoyed watching you and your video and learning. I think it was the Monterey speech you gave it was funny, as well done and, and informative and your store and you have escaped the building. And I learned a lot from you. So thank you for that. Michael Hingson 58:55 Well, thank you. It's was fun to do the speech in 2019. And be able to continue to move forward. And we're having a lot of fun with accessibility. And as I said, getting to me, you and having a lot of fun doing this podcast. And we we really love social minded people who are on missions, especially because they make sense. And it could be that you've got a single minded mission, that's okay. Or you go off in many directions. That's okay, as long as you do it, and you recognize you're doing it for the right reasons. And that's what matters. Jonny Imerman 59:29 Yeah, that's it. If we all live that way, and try to help others and be kind and affect people in a positive way. It's all it's a win for everybody. Everybody wins together. Everybody benefits. Michael Hingson 59:42 Should people be afraid of cancer, and I'm delivered and asking about fear. Michael Hingson 59:47 No, I don't think we want to live afraid of it. I think we need to think preventatively though, you don't want to be reactive. You don't want to deal with cancer like I had once I had it I was like Okay, and what do I need to do to Get rid of it. You want to think preventatively exercise workout, lower your stress, sleep enough, eat a healthy diet, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't do anything to the body that's toxic. Those are the ways I think we live. And then you just after that you can't really fear it. Because if you're doing all those things are most of the things that got to live your life and freedom, I think and try to enjoy it and not worry about it. Because life is truly enjoying the moment. Michael Hingson 1:00:30 And I think that's really important that we we've got to start fearing less, we've got to stop being so afraid. But be more strategic, analyze, be more people who look at what goes on during the day by taking some self analysis time at the end of the day. And not being afraid of so many things. Because fear, as I like to say blinds you. And when that happens, you don't think St. Michael Hingson 1:01:01 Lily agree, you know, fear is kind of the opposite of joy in a lot of ways. If you want to be happy, and you want to be in peace you can, you got to find ways to let it go. I told the agreement in fear to a lot of nasty things to people, it's just it's not another great emotion. So we the survivors have put a lot of time and reducing our fear of our cancer coming back. And to us the number one way to do that is giving back helping other people because you're not focused on your own self and your own fear, because you're helping somebody else who's sick right now. So through mentoring to giving back through taking the spotlight off yourself and other people. That's how you reduce your fear in the same way with something like AAA Alcoholics Anonymous sponsors will help the next person and it gets the mind off themselves of going back into drinking because you have a mentee that you got to help. You're responsible for somebody else, you know, that's how he he reduced the fear and you stay on a better path. Michael Hingson 1:02:04 Well, Jonny imerman I really want to thank you for being on unstoppable podcast and how can people reach out to you you've talked about it some but good to summarize it again. How can they maybe talk with you personally or reach out and learn all they need to learn Jonny Imerman 1:02:18 as little Michael You are a pleasure brother it's great chat with you again and Imerman angels if you know anybody with cancer, it's I M E R M A N angels that o r g if you forget that you just type in one on one cancer support and mentoring or something like that and we should pop up right away. And with clothes talk@coztak.com clothes talk.com Like your clothes are talking for a good cause sparking conversation in the word during go to the web site and learn about Craig pauses are out there to rock their logos Michael Hingson 1:02:55 will super will thank you again for being with us. And you out there listening wherever you are. We really appreciate you and would love to get your comments and feedback about this and unstoppable mindset in general, you are welcome to give us and we appreciate you giving us a five star review wherever you're listening to the podcast. But also, you can email me directly at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E .com. Or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is spelled H i n g s o n. And if you know someone else who you think ought to be on unstoppable mindset, love to get those suggestions. We really appreciate hearing from all of you about who you think ought to be on the podcast. Some people we'd love to have on the podcast. We haven't been able to reach him yet. But it'd be fun to have Anthony Fauci on the podcast, don't you think Jonny that'd be kind of Oh, that would be awesome. That would be kind of fun. But in general, we really appreciate any suggestions that you all have. And I can I can come up with a whole bunch of names of people we'd like to have, but we really appreciate any assistance and support any of you can bring to bear and in finding guests for us. We're grateful to do that. So thank you again for listening. And Jonny one last time. Thank you for being a guest on unstoppable mindset. Michael, thanks and stay well, buddy. Keep up the good stuff. Great to see you. Thanks for having me. Michael Hingson 1:04:35 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
