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Keith Stump is the executive director of a nonprofit organization, Able Inc., that serves mostly persons with learning and development disabilities. Keith really began his career of service as an intern in Cambodia where he saw first-hand the challenges faced by disenfranchised persons who happen to have disabilities. Eventually, Keith arrived at Able Inc. where he is helping the agency take clients out of more limited work environments and working to help them learn jobs around communities in Central California. The positive philosophy around disabilities shown by Mr. Stump is all the more remarkable since he does not have a disability but certainly has learned that all of us, no matter our differences, have gifts worth our time to enhance and bring into the world. Through Keith’s involvement, Able Inc., as it went through a recent rebranding process, found and now uses accessiBe to help make its website more inclusive. Keith has a number of stories he shares to help us all discover how Able Inc. is working to help make our world a better place for all of us. I am certain you will enjoy your time listening to Keith Stump’s interview. I would appreciate you giving this episode a 5 rating after you listen to it. Thanks in advance. About the Guest: Keith Stump has been volunteering and working in the nonprofit sector for the last twenty years. He received his MA in Intercultural Studies from Columbia International University where he did a deep dive into cross-cultural studies, world religions, and non-profit management and leadership. He is the Executive Director of Able Inc., which is an organization that offers life skills, job training and ultimately employment opportunities to individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities. Able Inc. has recently rebranded and is preparing to move into a newly renovated building in Visalia, CA. Before Able, Keith worked in Fresno on behalf of homeless individuals and families as the Chief Development Officer for the Fresno Mission. Before settling in California, Keith also worked with Bethany Global where he managed fundraising for family preservation programs in Haiti and Ethiopia among other countries. While living in Michigan, Keith worked with Samaritas where he advocated on behalf of global families, refugees, and local foster youth by creating a program for the recruitment of foster and adoptive parents that was eventually implemented statewide. Keith’s career has always been focused on advocacy and building awareness around the organizations he has been fortunate enough to represent and serve. Keith and his family moved to the Central Valley four years ago, and so far, they love being so close to so much of California’s natural beauty. Social Media Links for Keith: Keith Stump - Executive Director - Able Industries | LinkedIn www.ableinc.org https://www.facebook.com/ableincvisalia/ https://www.instagram.com/ableinc_/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes*
Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Glad you're with us wherever you happen to be today. We get to interview Keith Stump Keith is a person I met through a colleague at accessibe our nonprofit manager, Sheldon Lewis, Sheldon, who we also interviewed here on unstoppable mindset. Keith has been involved in the disabilities world for over 20 years, and specifically, mostly involved in developmental disabilities and so on. And we'll get to all that, because I'm anxious to hear what he's doing and how he got there, and, and all the things that he's accomplished. And I'm sure that it will be inspiring to all of us. But Keith, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Keith Stump 02:01 Thank you very happy to be here. Michael Hingson 02:03 So tell us a little bit about you kind of how you got started and all the early stuff? Sure. Well, Keith Stump 02:10 again, thank you for asking, and thank you for the opportunity. So I knew right out of college, quite honestly that I wanted to be involved in the nonprofit world, initially, that started on the global front. My background, really, up until fairly recently has been working in countries all over the world on behalf of refugees, immigrants, and many families, families that had children or caregivers, parents that had developmental disabilities. And so it has been very exciting to see that also translate here now that I'm working in the US. Again, I've always just had a passion for serving people and happy to continue doing that. So here Michael Hingson 02:53 you are now in in the Central Valley in California. And that'll be an interesting story to hear how you how you got there. But how did you start out in terms of dealing with the global world and how you got involved in serving at that level? And then how did that translate into coming kind of more into a little bit more localized environment? Sure. Keith Stump 03:15 So it all started with an internship in Cambodia. And I will say that I at that point really did not want to go to Asia, I had nothing against Asia, of course, but I thought that I would be working in a number of other countries continents, and I had the opportunity to go, I just decided, let's do this, let's see where it goes and what I can learn and, and that really opened my eyes, I will say first and foremost to the needs that were needs that were greater than just those that I was seeing here in the US. And certainly there are needs here as well. But when I started to see and at that time were in Cambodia, a lot of it had to do with human trafficking, there was a lot of trafficking happening with young girls, even young boys. And I noticed as I began to learn more and more that often people were children were put into trafficking situations because obviously their families could not support them or could not support the family unit as a whole. And so they felt they had no choice but to put somebody put a child into trafficking, which was truly tragic. The thing that I learned through that is that are really developed a passion through that for serving families. I learned that if we can serve the family unit as a whole, we'll be able to keep children out of these really tragic situations if we can provide them a means to support themselves and certainly children to be educated. We're, you know, we're basically on the way to fighting against human trafficking. And also what happened with that is I noticed that a lot of the families that were most desperate, were families that had children with disabilities, developmental disabilities, physical disabilities, and that really started I guess I should say my work In terms of focusing specifically on Family Preservation and working with families that had children with special needs, Michael Hingson 05:08 so So who did you do this internship with? How did that come about? Oh, Keith Stump 05:13 that was during my undergrad. And that was with Bethany global, which was out of Minneapolis. So I, I did the internship, I was in Cambodia for about a year I went with a couple other students, which was mostly a lot of fun once in a while, I had some drama, but it was a good time. And the great thing about it is I also met my wife during this internship, we lived in the same apartment complex. And so I worked with her aunt, at a local orphanage again, at that time, it was on behalf of some trafficking victims. And so one night, her aunt invited me over for dinner, and we got to know each other, and 15 years later, we're still married, we've been together for 17 years. So the global experience for lack of a better word has not only become something that I'm personally very invested, or I should say, professionally, very invested in. But personally, we get to go back to Cambodia a lot and visit her family. And it's been it's been good, I have a real passion for serving people around the world. And again, I'm very grateful that I've been able to do that locally here as well. Michael Hingson 06:18 It's interesting that you say that a lot of the families that seem to be the most desperate are families that have persons with disabilities in them was that desperation also, in part because of trafficking or what Keith Stump 06:34 it was because they they didn't, you know, often they didn't know what to do with those children. I know that sounds really awful. But that's that's the reality. And, you know, Cambodia was just sort of the tip of the iceberg as I as I finished school and really stepped into global work. Here in the US initially, after the internship, I worked on behalf of refugees and undocumented immigrants, but that took me all over as well. And then eventually, I moved into working with a family preservation program, spent a lot of time in Haiti and Ethiopia specifically as well as Cambodia, of course. And at that point, I really focus specifically on again, families that had children with special needs, and they just didn't have the resources, there were still a lot of taboos around folks that had disabilities. Specifically in Ethiopia, I'll be honest with you, a lot of it had to a lot of the taboos rose around a person's religious beliefs, they felt that if not everyone, certainly, but many people feel that if there is a disability in the family, especially with a child, the parents probably did something wrong. And so fighting against those stigmas, again, in any country can always be a challenge. And what happens with that, then is if the family feels that they did something wrong, they are unfortunately, sometimes very quick to push that child into a very desperate situation, right. So if the child can be traffic, they may do that. Simply again, to earn a little bit of extra money, which is, of course, truly tragic. I always remind folks that it's easy to beat these parents up. But then when you see what they're dealing with, and often, many of them are in extreme poverty and have seven or eight other kids. As tragic as it is, you can start to see how how that really desperate road has taken. Michael Hingson 08:24 And unfortunately, the child with the disability is the Well, I was gonna say the loser, but everyone loses in that kind of situation, because we don't realize the gifts that maybe that child with a disability really brings to the world or could bring to the world if given the opportunity. Absolutely, yes. And so then we have that challenge. And it happens worldwide. It happens all over and it and happens in this country, sometimes in a more subtle way. But it happens in this country as well that kids with disabilities, kids who are different are just not treated the same. They're not given the same opportunities. And there's a lot of disservice that somehow we need to address as well. Yes, yeah, absolutely. So you came back from that, and then what? Well, so keep Keith Stump 09:19 in mind that was that was over a period of oh, about 15 years. And so we eventually landed here in the Central Valley, where I am now in Visalia, California. My wife also has family here. And so I have young children and we decided it's time to settle down. We were both traveling a lot specifically me. And I have had the opportunity now to be with Able Inc. Able is an organization that works specifically here in Tulare County and Visalia on behalf of individuals who have developmental disabilities specifically, and so we teach life skills, independent living money management, and then we also do job training and job plays. smell. And so it has been really amazing to be able to do this close to home as much as I love global work, I was certainly at a place in my life where my kids needed to see me more, I wanted to see them more. And being able to do essentially the same work. Like you said, some of the challenges are different. But it's, the challenges are still very real. There's plenty of taboos here to deal with as well. But being able to do it locally, and in my own community, my wife and I recently just bought a house, and we're really plugged in here. And looking to get more plugged in. That has been exciting because I've actually never had that opportunity. As much as I worked globally or on behalf of a state or, you know, nationally, on some level, I was always, I was always in a different place, right. So I would go in, I would see the same people for a couple of weeks, and then I would have to fly out. And now that I get to do this in my community and spend time with amazing individuals on a daily basis. It's been it's been a lot of fun. It's been very exciting as well, Michael Hingson 10:56 how long is able been around as an organization. Keith Stump 11:00 Able has been around since 62. And so we are getting ready this year, in fact, to celebrate our 66 Michael Hingson 11:07 years. And what is able stand for? Keith Stump 11:10 Well, quite honestly, Able stands for for. And I'm gonna explain it this way because we recently rebranded and one of the coolest things with the rebrand is we use the word we used to be able industries incorporated. Now we just go by Able. And during the rebrand process, we ended up coming up with a new logo and all of that, but the word Able really came to the forefront. And our during that process, our designer came up with Able period, they put a period at the word eight after the word Able. And that was something that our board really grasp onto was this idea we are able period we are able there's finality there enough said we are able to be part of the community just like everybody else, and in many cases contribute sometimes more than everybody else. So it simply means Able, it simply means that we are about being in a community and we are here to be recognized. And we are able just like everybody else. So it's not an acronym it is able. Yeah, yeah, that's which is literally which Yeah, which is as good as it gets, right? Yes, yes. Michael Hingson 12:13 So what exactly does Able do? Keith Stump 12:16 There's essentially three programs that we have right now. And we essentially offer these programs to folks wherever they may be. So the first step in our program is again, life skills, independent living skills, money management, how to cook, that's more of a classroom setting. So that would be our first step. The second step is actual job training. And I know that many organizations like Able , sort of our industry as a whole has a reputation for sheltered workshops. Able does not have a sheltered workshop, when I say job training, we're not, we don't have people in a shop that are assembling pieces for production and kind of doing the same thing all day, we're actually out in the community. So we are very integrated. We have big contracts with our city parks with Best Buy a huge distribution center, we do a lot with craft, we've got a lot of local businesses and nonprofits that we partner with. And they, they give us opportunity to do on the site, job training, paid training. And then once a individual is ready once they've gone through that program. And our goal is to help them learn a job for about two years. And it's as you know, it's not just about learning the job, some individuals learn that job very quickly, I mean, much quicker than certainly I could if I was in their shoes, but there's some additional social skills that really need to be learned soft skills sometimes are the biggest challenge. So once someone completes the job training, they are eventually placed in a actual job. So community or I'm sorry, competitive, integrated employment, we do have a lot of acronyms. CCIE is where essentially somebody finishes the program, they're placed in a full time job. And we continue to provide case match case management, we provide additional insight, sometimes we have found and I'm sure you know this, but our community loves hiring our people. But there's some there's sometimes a little bit scared to do it. And that's okay. There's sometimes a little bit worried about how to manage somebody that may have a bad day that doesn't have all the soft skills. We've worked to train them in that but we all we all have off days. And so the case manager really is a mediator between the individual that is with us and the employer. And so we have very long standing relationships with employers in our community a and w is a great example. There's a gentleman here that owns four different franchises, and he has employed our folks for over 15 years now. One of one of our staff actually our one of our folks actually stayed with him for 10 years. And so everybody loved her everybody, you know would show up at a NW and they actually they absolutely love what we do because as you know, folks, in many cases that have have what we call developmental disabilities are some of the nicest people you're ever going to meet. And so once once they're plugged into a job, they're also very committed to it. So retention is good as well. So we have a lot to give back to our community. And that has been key as well as, as a nonprofit being able to say, we're not just asking, it's very easy to always want to be on the receiving end of things. But to say, actually, we have something to give back. And by the way, if you are a business who wants to employ our folks, you're going to, you're going to learn far more from them than then you will teach. And I feel that way personally, as well. Michael Hingson 15:35 And the people who get hired, gets the same wages as everyone else, they get a competitive wage and so on. Of course, yes. Yeah. And I asked that because you mentioned sheltered workshops. And I don't know whether everyone in our listening audience is familiar with what sheltered workshops were in our and so on, can you maybe describe that a little bit? Keith Stump 15:58 Yeah, and enable did have a sheltered workshop, pretty much every organization or in this industry, I think at one point they were they were very common, especially back in the 60s, when Able started, there was unfortunately, a lot of taboo and around stigma around people that had developmental disabilities. And there was this idea that these folks are not going to find jobs in the real world, for lack of a better word, they're going to struggle to be integrated. And so let's create a safe space for them where they can can work and often be paid Yes, less than minimum wage, they're paid by piece rate, or that's traditionally what happened, where they can work and be paid based on what they're producing. But unfortunately, many of those places ended up being It wasn't intentional. In many cases, I really think that people started out with the right intentions, it was a very different time. And again, Abel, Abel had a sheltered workshop as well. And I respect what had happened there. I had seen it. Part of what I did recently was what our team did recently was to move on. beyond that. So I think intentions were right, I certainly feel that way with APR. But unfortunately, in some cases, there was abuse. And you had folks that were, you know, essentially doing the same thing every day. And they were being paid less than minimum wage, they were being paid based on what they're being paid piece rate, which basically means they were being paid based on their productivity or what the organization or the state deemed productivity. The the crazy thing about that is, in recently, Trevor and Trevor Noah actually did a story on this when sheltered workshops were really brought to light in the last year, and the laws have changed. But none of us are 100%. productive, right? It's not, it's not reasonable to expect that every single day we go to work, we're going to be able to give 100% some days, we may get 5060, some days 120. But it really was a very, it was very unfair to the individuals who worked in those in those sheltered workshops, because as you can imagine, they're being held to a standard that really not everyone else is and it's not fair to look at a human being just based on what we consider productivity. And so I am very glad that the industry as a whole has moved beyond that. And although there's some challenges with that, I am, I have, you know, certainly enable has as well readily embrace those challenges. So it's it's fairly recent, it's fairly recent. And, again, it's exciting to see folks move beyond that, because I'll be transparent. I feel personally, I'm newer to ABL, but I feel personally that it should have happened quite a while ago, and that the industry as a whole should have should have moved beyond that a long time ago, and maybe it maybe it shouldn't have been, again, different time different place. I'm not going to comment on how it worked in the past. But certainly, it's one of those deals now that we know better, we can do better, Michael Hingson 18:55 right? Well, the, of course, part of the issue was sheltered workshops. And I'm familiar with them as well from the blindness standpoint, because sometimes departments of rehabilitation and other forces would shunt blind people into sheltered workshops and other people with other so called disabilities, because the feeling was that we could not be productive. And the whole point of the workshop is that it began with the Javis Wagner eau de Act back in 1938, when the whole concept of workers rights and employment and work weeks, and so on, and minimum wage, and so on, were all created. And the idea was that the workshop was supposed to be a training place where people who might not have the same opportunities as others, and I think it was intended to be something with the with with the right attitude and the right intentions, but the intent was that the workshops would be a place where people could go to get trained, and then they would go out into the, to the workplace. But unfortunately, a number of the workshop people decided to take it further and there was also a minimum wage. As I recall, if you were put into a workshop, initially, you would get three quarters of the wage that others would get in competitive employment. And the whole idea was, it was a training facility. Yeah, but then workshop, people evolved it to lower the minimum wage to the point where eventually it got to be that there was no minimum. And, and people were being paid blind people, for example, 22 cents an hour to make brooms. And as you pointed out, there was the whole issue of the productivity, the peace, productivity rate, and they had some very bad standards for how they determined how competitive a person could be. So it was a very unfortunate thing. And it is something where most of the country is recognizing the value that Able did, of getting away from the workshop and going out into the regular community, because people can be competitively employed. Keith Stump 21:11 And it's great for the community. I mean, again, I will tell you that I'm just gonna say it. But this idea and this stigma that was there in the past that we have to keep people safe, that we almost have to keep them locked away from the general population is truly tragic, because now that we're and we have been out and about for 20 years now. But now that we also have the site of our employment training, where we're out in the community and integrated, it is super exciting to see and to be part of something where folks could say, Hey, I recognize you from when you were in the parks, or you were at BestBuy or what have you, and, and again, our community really loves people and loves the people that we serve. So it truly would be tragic to keep them in a warehouse all day. I don't know how else to say that not only for their own sake, but because they have so much to give back. Michael Hingson 22:00 Well, and I think in general, you will well, people would find that these people are brighter than you think. And they know absolutely. They know when they're being shunted away. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was on the board of the Fort Worth Lighthouse for the Blind for nine years and just rotated off earlier this year. But the lighthouse for a while, had a sheltered shop. And not while I was on the board that had long gone away, I think back in 2004, was when the workshop was eliminated, because they discovered, rightly so that, in reality, people can work competitively. It's all about setting the stage. It's all about proper training. And I know of other agencies and so on that have gone the same way. Because the reality is, everyone has gifts, and what we need to do is to match the gifts to the job. Keith Stump 23:00 Yes, absolutely. Now there are many, there are many things that I see our our folks do. And this is true for staff. This is true for trainees, I mean, we hire our trainees as well. And there are things that they're much better at than I am. So we learn together. Everybody has different skills. Now your job at Able is I'm the executive director. And so it's slowly being at the top, isn't it? It can be Yeah, it can be we have a phenomenal management team. But we are going through a lot of changes in organization, not only as our industry changing, which for me is exciting, because I'm not necessarily you know, the domestic industry is very different than the global I don't I have to be careful with that word industry. But the service that we provide is very different here than what I was able to do globally. So there's it's very exciting to have more resources. On the flip side, there's far more red tape. So so that has been that has been interesting. It's been a learning experience. But it's been very good. And again, our management team is very good. Very, very grateful for each of them. And we're in the process of moving as well. We rebranded a year ago. So Able is looking quite different. And our programs have changed a lot. And we have to move we have a new building, just in the last year. So Michael Hingson 24:21 well tell us about the move. That's a that's an interesting thing. i You had mentioned it before. So why Why move what's what's happening? Keith Stump 24:29 Yeah, so a couple things. So first of all, we want all of our campuses to be together. We have two campuses right now, our life skills program is on one campus, and then our other programs are here at the campus where I am. And so we want everybody to be together. We really want again, the whole program as a whole to be integrated as well. The other thing is that Able, the building that we're currently in did have a sheltered workshop. So obviously we don't need that anymore. And And then the third thing is with COVID. Like everybody else we found that we can do far more remotely. And actually, most of our jobs, obviously, the job. And I will say all of the jobs, actually all of our job training programs and the jobs that we actually provide to folks that we help place them into, unless we hire them personally, they're all off site. They're all remote, right? Because we're actually out in the community. So we don't need the space that we once did. The largest part of what we do is our Community Employment Services, crew, and they're hardly here, which is a good thing, because that means they're out working in the community. So so we didn't need the space. We we downsized to some extent, but because we, we are now consolidating both campuses into one, we're still in a good size building. It's about 37,000 square feet. But we didn't need the space that we did, we learned that we can be more efficient by being out there. And now moving forward, we can all we can all be together, we're still in the community, we only moved about a mile and a half north. And it's been exciting. We're renovating a brand new building. So good times. Michael Hingson 26:05 So the the whole idea of being out in the community, of course, does a lot to educate people. Do you have some stories of just some great successes that you've had and how people who aren't normally associated with disabilities suddenly discovered that maybe things aren't as bad as they think? Keith Stump 26:28 Yeah, I think so in terms of the community, and just building awareness. It happens almost every day, I will say that we are very lucky, very lucky. We recently hired a coordinator of public public relations and fundraising. His name is James and he and I are out in the community on a regular basis. And I will tell you that first and foremost, there's still a lot of stigma, stigma not around our folks, but around ABL and whether or not we are Are we one of those organizations that had a sheltered workshop. Just recently, actually, somebody said to both of us on the same day, two different individuals, oh, Able, you guys are the ones that lock people in the warehouses, and they can work and make money all day like, well, we're not locking anybody anywhere. We never did. But yes, there was that in the past. And so probably the biggest thing that I get to do again, on a daily basis alongside James is build awareness and tell stories about what's actually happening today. And then we get to take folks out in the community and introduce them to our, our people. And so I think practically a great example of that is we recently partnered with our local minor league baseball team in Visalia rawhide. And they have six interns, or they did during the season, the season ended a couple days ago, but they had six interns, that were part of Able, and for the most part, it went phenomenally well, they are looking to bring them on for future events, and then certainly hire them. And so that has that has been something really exciting to see is, is not just to partner with sort of our usuals, we really, really value those individuals that we've worked with those partners that we've had for years, but to be able to go out to community and to be part of what rawhides is doing not just as interns, not just as staff, because again, rawhides will hire our folks. But to also go out there and we had a we had a night that was just for ABL it was called free to be me night, we set up our booths, and we give things away every single Friday night home game. And so that's a practical example of not only a business embracing our people and interning them hiring them, but then also saying we love what Abel does, let's bring you went to the larger community and talk about what you're doing on a weekly basis. And there's two interns specifically that that work there they're six total, but two of them are really a delight. They're all awesome. So I want to I want to be careful about that. But these are the two the brothers and sister. They are a lot of fun. And I tell you, you see them walk around the park and do their job. And it's just exciting. It's also fun. I'm at the booth off, and we haven't able booth setup. They're kind of its standard now. And it's awesome. It's great having them come by and talk to folks and obviously our individuals, the people that have been through our program or or are in our program. They're the best representatives of of what we do. There are challenges, obviously, is to be expected, right? I think of the relationship we have with Best Buy a huge distribution center here. We've worked with them for years. And there are times that, you know, there's things that we need to we need to work out we need to improve, we need to help folks understand what it means to work a second or third shift. But these are all practical skills that we get to teach one individual Her name is Marley. She's been with our program for a very long time. And she's been at Best Buy I believe for over 10 years now and she is somebody who takes her job extremely seriously but is one of the most fun people you're ever going to meet. So there's certainly success stories and there's certainly stories of challenge The parks right now have been very difficult, because Visalia really has a challenge right now with transient folks. And so what does it mean for us to clean our local parks, when we also have an issue with, you know, engaging with folks that may be homeless or what have you. And unfortunately, that's not always safe. So that's something that we've really had to embrace is able and say, should we still be doing this, we've worked very closely with the city parks with the city of Visalia to, to make sure that people are safe. And it is a balancing act, because we want individuals to be out there in the real world, we want them to be seen. Our parks crews are probably easily the most recognizable because all of our trucks are branded, and people see them out there every day. And so again, we have really focused on just putting our people out there like everybody else, not of course, in an exploitive way, but saying, These are jobs that we can fulfill. And again, I'm very excited about the fact that we've been able to do that. I mean, honestly, our Community Employment Services crew is is really rising above and beyond, it's very exciting to see them build relationships, and not just with businesses, but local nonprofits. So we, we partner with Happy Trails, which is a organization here locally that does therapeutic riding, horse horseback riding, they've given so much to us over the years, we've given a lot to them, we essentially have the same clients. The source LGBT resource center is another organization that we work very closely with. There's a lot of crossover with the people they serve and the people we serve. And so building awareness around our people in the Partnerships has been really exciting. It's been very exciting to see Visalia or Tulare County as a whole really embrace us. Michael Hingson 31:47 So what job does Marly do at BestBuy? She does a Keith Stump 31:51 number of different jobs. But right now she is basically, she's still she drives a tug, I believe. And she's collecting cardboard and various various items like that and recycling them. But they rotate. Sometimes they're stalking sometimes they're driving the tug, sometimes they're cleaning. Sometimes I know in the past, we've had people on the line as well. So Best Buy is it's a distribution center. So there actually is an amazing place. Actually, that's where you go and you see these huge TVs and iPads. And so this is this is like Santa's workshop. Michael Hingson 32:27 Yeah. boxes and boxes and boxes of all of that stuff, too. Yes, yes. And so that's the center. That's a distribution center then sends things to the local stores. Keith Stump 32:37 Yeah, they cover the entire west coast. Yeah, they've been a great partner. Michael Hingson 32:41 And so the the folks that work at the rawhides, what do they do? Keith Stump 32:46 So they basically help. They help with some maintenance, they help with facilities, they help with cleanup, they also help with sales and that sort of thing as well. They've been out on the field they've they've helped to they don't maintain the landscape or anything like that. It's a pretty specialized deal, as I'm sure you know, but they've certainly been been out there helping with events, pre and post event type deals. So a lot of it is facilities. Michael Hingson 33:13 Yeah. And do you think that they require, once they're on the job and trained, do you think they require a lot more supervision and a lot more work to maintain than the average worker? No, no, Keith Stump 33:27 not at all. Unless, unless somebody again, and we all have a bad day. But if somebody, there's additional challenges, right? I mean, it's no secret if somebody has autism or something like that. And we certainly serve a number of clients that do and they wouldn't mind me saying this. Sometimes you just, there's some additional soft skills there that you need some additional help. The employer needs to understand that, you know, it's okay, take a break, step back. And then and then get back to it. But no, they definitely don't need additional help, in my opinion. I mean, I will say, and again, I love Able, we have an amazing crew. But like any organization, there's there's drama, and there's things you have to deal with on a daily basis. And I very strongly believe that it is consistent whether someone has a disability or not. Michael Hingson 34:13 And that's the reason I asked the question, because the reality is once training takes place, and training may be a little different for some people as opposed to others, whether it's disabilities, we've been trying to train politicians for years, and that doesn't seem to be working. So there's another branch that you should start to recover politicians but but the reality is that that training is different for different people. And the best training processes are the ones that can accommodate whatever anyone needs. But the fact is that once a skill is learned, once a job is learned, people can go do it. And so we need to get rid of this whole fear of what disabilities are viewed as being thing in the world by most people as opposed to what they really are. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's up. And it's so unfortunate that we have such a hard time making that happen. And I was gonna ask you, but I think I think you've kind of explained it. The the differences between here and in doing this in other countries. From an attitudinal standpoint, do you think that it's much different here overall? Or do we still really face the same fears? And are we making much more progress here than elsewhere? Keith Stump 35:36 That is a really good question. I think, I think there is less stigma, but it is almost more subtle here. You've already kind of said that almost in a passive aggressive way. Where it's, oh, yeah, we love we love those people. But no, no, they can't do that, can they? Right. Whereas in the other places I've worked, it might be more direct, somebody might actually not be passive aggressive, they may not be so subtle, however. And that's that is worse. I mean, I'm just going to be transparent. I have found that those stigmas, people will outright come and say you, you can't work here, because you have this disability, you won't, you won't find anybody here in the US say that, mostly for legal reasons. Although they certainly will let you know. And I'm talking locally, I'm sure this doesn't happen. But I have never run into that here where someone will outright say you can't be here because of these reasons. But they will will very subtly let you know, this is the reason that we can't accept folks. And so there's pros and cons to that sometimes it's easier dealing with folks that are just they're not gonna be passive aggressive, they're not subtle, they'll just tell you what you think. And that means that you can have that open dialogue, you can have a conversation, you can educate them. And I do think that globally, what I have found is that folks are much more open to being educated, they're open to the conversations. Whereas here, you can have the conversation. And you know how this goes, everybody kind of nods their heads, and you didn't get through? Yeah, you didn't get through and the person acts nice, they act, you know, they're very, they're passive aggressive, and, Oh, we love those people. You're not We love those people. But those people, again, we can't help you right now. Whereas globally, I have found that again, this the stigma may be worse the things they say out of their mouth, eight, maybe even worse, but there's sometimes more openness to, to backup. And when you when you challenge those individuals, they say, oh, geez, you're right, I was wrong. Whereas sometimes it's harder here to get people to admit they're wrong. There's a little bit more pride around that. So you know, there's, there's some things are easier, for sure. And there are more resources here. But some things are more challenging, because I think there's more pride. I don't know how else to say that. I think people are a little bit more. They don't want to admit that they have they have they they hold the stereotype or that they have these ideas. Whereas sometimes it's it's easier to get folks to admit that they're wrong in other places, Michael Hingson 38:04 and there's also the profit aspect of it where people say, well, it's just going to impact our profits. And we're so tied into that, that we miss so many things. So you said something earlier that I thought was absolutely irrelevant, which is that when a lot of persons with disabilities get hired in various places, the odds are we're going to be on we usually are a lot more loyal. And we're going to stay there. Because we even though it may not be articulated as such, we know how hard it was to get that job in the first place. Keith Stump 38:41 Yeah, yeah, that's true. Absolutely. I think there's also I don't know if at least with our, the individuals we serve, the loyalty is not just about how hard it was to get the job. You're absolutely right about that. But there's also a real love for that place for their community. I think, from what I have seen, and again, I'm just speaking from personal experience. Now. There's, I think sometimes folks that have disabilities develop developmental disabilities, in my case, maybe they value community more, maybe they want to feel plugged in more than some of the other individuals we serve. I know it is very easy, especially in our culture to have a I'm a I'm a solo guy, right? It's you want to be independent, you want to do your own thing. And, and obviously, sometimes that can be to the detriment of folks of myself of us. And so I do find that the folks we serve, really they want to be plugged in more they want that community and that does play into how long they choose to stay at a space a place if if the job is going well. There's really no no reason for them to leave. They're not interested in that. Michael Hingson 39:49 That all gets back to the proper training the proper fit and understanding and some potential employees may not be able to RTK like that or understand it. But you know whether you have a disability or not, that could still be the case. And so we all can use assistance and help from others. And there's a lot of value in community. And I think we miss it way too often, oh, I can do that. I don't need any help. And, and sometimes we don't need help. And the other side of that is that people need to recognize that they shouldn't just assume that we need help those people don't need help. It's always or should be okay to ask, but don't assume. Yes, yeah. Good point. And we we encounter that a lot. Well, what is the whole world of working in the nonprofit sector and so on, done for you personally, it's obviously had to have a lot of personal effect on you, and family, and so on. Keith Stump 40:50 Yeah, it's taught me a lot. It's allowed me to learn so much about people that I, I love them, far more than I think, over the process of time. It really puts me in a space where I love people, I really care about people. And the more that I learn about people, whether it's the folks that I serve now or globally, whether it's, you know, internationally, local, doesn't matter, people are people. That's the number one thing that I've learned is, there's really not that much of a difference between somebody in Ethiopia versus here in California, there's not much of a difference between somebody that has a disability for somebody that apparently doesn't, although I will say I, you know, I'm actually I'm very transparent parent, to be honest with you about some of my own struggles, mental health, as I like many of us, you know, I feel that that is a certainly as a disability just as much as physical or developmental and so we all have something to struggle with, I certainly have my struggles. I know that our clients do our staff to the people I've worked with around the world doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, we're all human, we all have our struggles. And I love what you often say about folks that I'm going to butcher the language you use, but folks that can see in there, they're basically limited by sight, right? Correct me on how you you word that. But I've listened to quite a number of your podcast and presentations. And I love that because it is very true. We each we each have something to deal with. We each have pros and cons, and we're all human, there really is no difference on many levels. And so I guess what I've learned through the Global work and through all the nonprofit work is that I get to see that every single day, there really should not be any such thing as stigma, because or we should all just admit we all have our own stigmas. We all have our own taboos, right. And so yeah, it's given me a real love of people want to continue to serve, it can be exhausting. I mean, it can be, as you know, I mean, mentally, you really do have to create space so that when needed, you have your personal time, and then you're at work. And that can be tough. When you're dealing with people, it can be tough with any job, but it can be I do personally take all of this very seriously, I know that we're dealing with people's lives. And in many cases, with the global work, I actually have been in settings where it was life or death. If you don't mind, I'm gonna share a quick story of this and how, how it impacts my work today. So when I was in Ethiopia, I worked with a family preservation program. And there was a child there in America, who had pretty severe autism and his mother, he was with a single mother. And that was really, she was really the only real relationship in his life, we worked hard to try to create other relationships and other spaces for him. But his mother tragically passed away, we did not know she didn't let us know that she had HIV. And she passed away. And all of a sudden, we were left with a child who had pretty severe developmental disabilities and really did not have any other relationships. And although we were able to, in many cases, help families provide and support their children with disabilities, it was still a real challenge in Ethiopia to move a child with disabilities into a foster or adoptive home. That is that is a real challenge. And so we were tragically not able to find a home for Bereket. And he went into an orphanage it was it was we hope to temporary, but he refused to eat. He did not have any other relationships in his life besides us. Obviously, he lost his mother completely unexpectedly. And he passed away within 30 days. And that was still to this day. So you know, still one of the toughest situations I've ever had was to have somebody die essentially on my watch. We weren't able to provide him with with the needs that he he really had to have met. And so that continues to impact me when I think about the resources we have here when I think about how important it is to build awareness and move past stigma to move past these taboos, because in his case, it is very tragic. But he was not able to get the help because we weren't able to find somebody to care for him because those stigmas existed. And like I said, there's things that are better globally. And there's things that are more challenging globally. And that was something that I have to say, if it would have been here in the US, we would have had the resources, I think, to certainly keep him alive and find him a temporary solution. And so when I'm here locally, or I'm not working in those life and death situations anymore, I have to constantly remind my staff sometimes that when we have a really tough day, it's not life and death, we are dealing with people's life. That's true. But because we have resources, and because we have a community that really supports us, I know that we would not have a Berikut situation here in Visalia. Now, that may happen in other places in the US, but we do have a very supportive community. And so that is, again, obviously something that has had a huge impact. And that happened. Several times several cases, it's very difficult finding help for folks. And so Keith Stump 46:18 that really gave me continues to give me a passion to advocate for folks. And also, I think it's so important that here locally here in the US, we don't take for granted the resources that we have, we don't take for granted the progress that we have made. Right. And although like I said, there's things that are sometimes easier in other countries, there's also there's also challenges. And here we have the ability, we have resources, and we can help. Fortunately, we live in a community, we live in a state at least that is supportive, and there's a long ways to go. But being reminded of that, you know, to me, I feel very lucky that I am in a place that I know that would not happen again. Other things may happen, people may fall through the cracks, or maybe, maybe we can't find somebody a job, but I am grateful that we can at least temporarily keep them safe and provide for their life needs. And, of course, COVID COVID made that scary, because as I'm sure you know, we did lose people. And, you know, it's kind of put back into that place. Again, I got out of the global work for about five years and went Oh, wow, you know, I'm here at Able, and we lost, we lost five people initially, that that did get COVID and passed away. And so it's always, you know, it's just there's a real sense of brevity, I guess. And life is so short. And it's a privilege to be able to help people in a little time that we have Michael Hingson 47:40 to you sometimes have challenges dealing with the families of persons with disabilities in terms of getting them to let go and let people grow and expand a little bit. Keith Stump 47:52 Yeah, and this is true. I mean, certainly here locally in Tulare, but it's true globally as well. Yeah, it's I want to be careful how much I say about that, because our families and caregivers are really phenomenal human beings. But yes, it is a probably one of our greatest challenges. And certainly I'm not going to talk specifics around that. But no, there are. There's there is an idea. And some of this is generational. Some of it is just maybe how an individual grew up in the community. But again, I often hear folks refer to our clients as kids. Let's see what we can do for those kids. You know, many of them are, are older than me or have retired, they're in their 60s 70s. And even if they're in their 20s, they're not kids, they're adults. And so that is an issue. And often the people that refer to them that way are their parents or caregivers. And there is, as you already know, and as you've alluded to there, there is a challenge sometimes to help those individuals understand that if we're truly going to be integrated. We need people to be out in the community and that actually the community is safe again, that's not something that people sometimes have the luxury of in other countries it can go either way and this story I just shared with bear cat it wasn't a safe community. And part that's why actually his mom felt she couldn't reveal that she had HIV and get help in the first place. But here in Tulare County, we do live in a safe community and helping folks understand that it is okay to be out there and actually it's it's it's better for everybody not just the person that has the disability but maybe even more so for our community as a whole. Well, there Michael Hingson 49:29 there are a lot of challenges and unfortunately families oftentimes shelter their loved ones. We I've seen it a lot with blind with blind people or in people who are losing their eyesight and the rest of the family doesn't really want to deal with it. They they just don't recognize that it isn't the end of the world. As I like to say people talk about the road Less Traveled you know all having a any kind of a disability and you're right, I've referred to people with eyesight is light dependent, which is really the whole issue that you rely on light in order to function. But all of us traveled down different lanes in the same road or on the same road. And there's nothing wrong with that. And we, we really do need to recognize that it's not the end of the world, just because someone acquires a difference that they didn't have, we need to train them, we need to make sure they get the training, and that the people around them get the appropriate training, a lot of times attitudinally, but we need to get that training in order to be able to allow people to grow and continue to thrive and be in the world. Absolutely. And it makes sense to, you know, to do that. So it is a it is a challenge. And it's something that we all have to deal with. Yes. So I can't resist Of course, how did you come to discover accessibe Keith Stump 50:59 I came to. So we were basically looking for we with the rebrand, we did redid our website, and I wanted to find something that would make it of course, accessible, but not just accessible, but the most accessible possible. And so when I just started doing some searching, and excessively popped up, and that's how I personally found it, and then obviously, through through connecting from there, and it's been I will tell you, it's been really awesome, because not only have our clients in our community benefited from just being able to go to our website, but also I've been able to share excessively with within our coalition's with with our other nonprofit and business partners, and they've started to plug into that as well. And so I have to be honest, every time I show off accessibe, people, they want to give APR credit. So I keep reminding them like oh, this is a free service we've received. But it's so cool that folks, you know, our community at least just feels like it's, you know, mind blowing, and it kind of is on one side, I feel like that's a little bit sad, because I think these resources should have been the norm much longer than that. But I'm happy at least locally to be able to kind of lead the charge on that. And, again, it's it's been very, very good for us and very fun to show off. Michael Hingson 52:24 Well. The interesting thing about SSP and technologies in general, when when people talk about and I hear it, well you have to use this sensor to to tell light, I don't have to do that. Or you have to have these special tools to make websites accessible. And I don't. The problem is that the reality is, as we talked about a minute ago, yeah, you do have to use tools, and you have to have the light bulb in order to get light at night or we all have different tools that we use, we just don't think about it. And the biggest problem I think, for us, from a technological standpoint, us who happened to have so called disabilities, let's say blind people. But others as well, is that although the technology got developed a lot quicker for people with eyesight, or for people who walk or for people who don't have Dilip Velop, mental disabilities, the reality is we're evolving the technology that allows us to have a lot of the same access that everyone else has. And if attitudes had been different, perhaps that technology would have been developed right alongside of, of the technologies that were developed for so called persons without disabilities. But that's not the way it worked out. It doesn't make us less, it does, in part, create an indictment on the people who weren't inclusive right from the outset. Absolutely. And so that's something that we of course, have to deal with. Keith Stump 54:00 Yeah, very, but I agree. But so far, it's been very exciting for us. And it was, it was perfect timing because of the new website and the rebrand. So it's been good. I'm very grateful. Thank you. Michael Hingson 54:14 Well, and, you know, it's an exciting time from a standpoint of technology and everything else, because inroads are being made. I think the biggest challenges that anyone with a disability faces are still attitudes, the technologies are becoming more and more available, and other things are becoming more available, but it still boils down to ultimately attitude that has to be addressed in order to make sure that we all truly get the same opportunities. Yeah, yeah, very much agree. And you're making a big difference in that just by virtue of what you're doing, which is really pretty cool. And it's exciting to see the various things that You know that ABL is doing and that you're doing personally? What what kinds of things are coming up for you and Able, what, what's the future gonna hold? Keith Stump 55:09 Well, we are near end of year. So of course, for any nonprofit, we are really pushing for our typical, you know, our giving campaigns or donations with the move, we're doing a VIP sort of invite only open house December 2, and then once we finally finish everything, then we'll do a big open house in the spring so that the move really is a really big deal. So trying to get past that. It's both exciting and certainly daunting. But that's what's coming up in the next six months in terms of our programs, we've actually worked with our local regional center to really four reformat almost all of our programs at this point so that they are more person centered so that we can spend more time with our clients one on one, getting the funding for around that has been a challenge. I mean, that's probably been the better part of eight months trying to finalize what our new programs are going to look like. And we are we're very excited, I think with the passing of SB 639, which is the minimum wage law, we very much embrace that. And as you've already asked folks that are placed in employment, of course, get that we're looking to move all of our training we do. So our training programs, which are temporarily temporary, temporary, sorry, our are still almost like an internship. So we're looking to offer minimum wage and those programs as well. So there's a lot of changes that are coming for, certainly for any nonprofit, I mean, it's always a balancing act, my desire and our desire is to provide the best service possible. And then also looking at how you do that when you don't have a lot of money. And thankfully, the state recently passed some bills that have helped with that. But it's a challenge. I mean, I'm not it never really ends, because there's so many people that need to be served. And there's only amount of limited resources again, we're lucky, we're lucky that we live in a state that has resources, I've certainly worked without them. But it's challenging. So but it's exciting. It's there's so much change right now that I personally love change. And I sort of I accept chaos, I like it. And part of that is maybe I'll to global travel and all that. And that can be very challenging, obviously for some staff, some enjoy it. But being able to lean into that and say changes exciting. Let's let's go there, I'm also kind of unlucky and lucky. And I gave Able credit. Because when I was hired, you know, my background is in nonprofit work in the nonprofit world as a whole. So I have a lot of experience in development and leadership. But working here domestically, on behalf of individuals that have developmental disabilities, there's a new for me. So there's advantages to that, because I get to go into these places. I have a lot of coalition meetings and such where it's like, well, we can't do that. That's the way it's, you know, it's always been done this way. And I'm like, why? I don't know the difference. This seems much better to me, let's do that. So I have that advantage where I've not really stuck on a certain way of doing things, which, in the midst of a time that has really been full of change. That's obviously a positive on the flip side. You know, I certainly have a lot to learn about program and policy because even though I'm good at dealing with people, those the red tape side of things did not exist, to the extent that it does here when I was working globally. So it's an exciting time. For me, for me personally, it's very exciting. I hope my staff can say the same, because so much has changed. But most of them have been very good about embracing it. And and I think we all recognize that good things are to come. But there's certainly some challenges ahead as well. Michael Hingson 58:46 Yeah, but we can cope. And we can help. We all have broad shoulders. You mentioned the regional centers, my wife was the chair of the board of the Orange County Regional Center for a while. So we're very familiar with, with that program and the whole case management process that they bring in the fact that through them, a lot of funding is available. And you're right, California is a state that has so many resources and is willing to, for the most part share them which is really pretty cool. Absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here. You've been here for a whole hour and it's been a lot of fun. And I I've learned a lot and always get inspired when I get to hear stories sometimes even when the sad ones are, are told they're still stories that help teach us and so I hope that that everyone listening is has enjoyed it and we certainly appreciate you taking the time to be here because you've obviously got lots to do but we really appreciate you coming and being a part of this today. Keith Stump 59:46 Yeah, no, thank you so much. I love it. I'm always glad to do these sorts of things. And I if you don't mind, I'm gonna tell you one more story I love Sure. And this is this is a this is a light one. So we love stories. So one of the reasons I love work In here at Able, and I will say with the folks that we work with is that when I literally the first week that I started, obviously, folks were a little bit shy, right? I'm a new executive director, and I very much have an open door policy. And I kept trying to remind folks of that, but it took, you know, a good six months for them to take me seriously. But the very first week, a gentleman that works for us by the name of David, who had gone through our programs, and he's been here for a long time, he literally walks into my office when everybody else has been shy. And again, this is somebody that has been through our program. And you know, certainly we've, we've served and we've now hired, he walks in, he doesn't he doesn't tell me his name. He doesn't ask me what my name is. I'm not even sure he knows who I am. And he just walks in, he says, Hey, have you seen the new Godzilla movie? I was like, Yes, I have. And I love it. I love the fact that the reason I love working with this community is they, they people, and I wish this was true for everyone. And I'm trying to live my life this way as well. But it doesn't matter who you are a human being as a human being a person as a person. He didn't care that I was the executive director. I don't know if he even knew. But he just wanted to talk to a fellow human being and ask if they had seen the new Godzilla movie. Michael Hingson 1:01:17 And the more important part was you had? Keith Stump 1:01:19 Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so he and I still talked about movies. And I was like, Yes, I have. And it's awesome. But so we went on from there. But again, I I love that story. Because David is one of those guys that just represents the best of what we do. He gets past all the usual junk that you know, many people deal with in their lives is I am too shy about this, or this guy is the executive director of the boss or he doesn't worry me. Yeah, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter doesn't matter. He just wants to talk to a fellow person and talk to them about Godzilla. So that's why I love what we do. It's really exciting to be a part Michael Hingson 1:01:53 of, well, thank you for sharing that. But thanks in general for being here. And, and I too love stories. I've been in sales most of my life. And I believe that the best salespeople are the ones who can really tell stories and share and teach and advice. And that's what it's all about. Yeah, Kieth Stump 1:02:12 yeah. Well, this has been wonderful. Michael Hingson 1:02:14 So well shoot you. I hope that you'll all reach out. And if people want to reach out and learn more about you and what you do, or talk to you and maybe seek advice, how do they do that? Keith Stump 1:02:25 Well, the easiest way is to go to our website, Able inc.org. Pretty easy. There's a contact page on there, we really make it easy to reach out. We've got information on every single page, so you're not going to miss us. I'm personally on there as well. So under the About section, anybody can reach us, but Able inc.org really is the easiest way. Cool. Michael Hingson 1:02:45 Well, thanks again. And everyone, please feel free to check out Ableinc.org. And I hope you enjoyed this and we I would really appreciate it if you'd let us know. Let us know your thoughts you can reach me at Michaelhi at accessibe .com. That's M I C H A E L H I at A C C E S S I B E.com. On one breath, I did that, or go to our podcast page, Michael hingson.com/podcast. But we'd love to hear from you love your thoughts. Please give us a five star rating. We appreciate your ratings and your comments. If you know anyone else and case you as well. Anyone know anyone who might be a good guest or who you'd like to see appear on estoppel blinds that please let us know and give us an introduction. We would value that greatly. I got a letter from someone this morning just about that very thing. And we really appreciate it when someone writes and says, Ben, listen to your podcasts I suggest so and so or whatever. So please do that. And Keith once more. Thanks very much for being here on unstoppable mindset and we'd like to hear in the future how things are going. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Michael Hingson 1:03:59 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. 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