Episode 290 – Unstoppable Corporate Shaman with Wolf Born

I would like you to meet Randal Newton-john, at least that was his given name at birth, but I’ll come back to that in a moment. Randal grew up with what he describes as a pretty normal childhood. Many of us might not totally agree since his aunt’s name is Olivia Newton-John. If being the nephew of a famous actress and entertainer weren’t enough, his grandfather was the famous physicist Max Born. Randal really came from a creative family didn’t he? Growing up he had the nickname of Wolf. At some point he decided to legally change his name to Wolf Born and so here we now call him Wolf.   This creative man went to college and then worked at a few jobs working on suicide hotlines among other things. Eventually he accepted an executive management position with an organization helping persons with developmental disabilities as well as persons with autism.   Wolf always felt a need to be literally closer to Nature and to develop a lifestyle that understood the many things we typically ignore, but that Nature is trying to tell us.   In 2022 Wolf left his executive position to form his own company not only to better his own relationship with his surroundings, but also to help others gain a bigger picture of their world by more appreciating Nature. Our conversation discusses his observations and efforts. He tells us of the many ways we all can better use our natural surroundings to become better and more healthy. Wolf describes many issues we have covered in previous conversations here on Unstoppable Mindset. For example, he tells about the cycles of Nature, cold to hot to cold or cool again. As he describes it, we as humans tend to ignore this cycle and simply go at a fast or hot pace which leads often to many health crises. I think you will enjoy hearing Wolf’s observations and I do hope some of you will reach out to him at lucidlifeaus@gmail.com.       About the Guest:   Wolf Born, (birth name: Randal Newton-John) was born in Melbourne, Australia. His father was the brother of the late pop music icon and actress, Olivia Newton-John. Whether to do with those genetics, or a family that supported self-expression, he was interested in theatre and music from an early age. While he succeeded academically in high school, in his early twenties he rejected the establishment and became an artist, working with an eclectic mix of sculpture (largely mask making), script writing, performance and music. He moved out of the city to the country, drawn by a fascination for nature. It was at this point that he became interested in indigenous shamanic practices of attuning to the natural world, trance drumming and singing, and ritual performance. He took his shamanic performances from the country back into the city streets ( to the bemusement of onlookers.) By his late twenties, feeling the need to ‘settle down’, he became a professional counsellor and soon moved into management. Drawing upon his strong analytical aptitude, he quickly progressed into executive management in mental health and disability organisations. However, after more than a decade as an Executive, the inner call to return to his passion for nature and the arts grew strong. In 2022, he gave up his position in a disability service provider and began to work on a way to combine his seemingly disparate skills of organisational leadership and arts/wellbeing/nature-based practices. In the thirty years since he first saw the importance of connecting with nature, the world had changed. Where once environmental consciousness was seen as only for hippies and the radical fringe, now it had taken centre stage in global awareness. So, he began to develop his own unique vision of organisational guidance, as a regenerative business consultant and a corporate shaman. The aim: to transform organisational consciousness around nature. The core tenet of his work is to understand that nature is within us, not just the environment ‘out there’ of land, seas and skies. Through this awareness we can partner with nature for the benefit of both people and the planet. He currently lives near Daylesford, Victoria, which is about one and a half hours drive north west of Melbourne. He lives on a nine acre property with his senior dog, Denny. He is partnered to James, and they have been together for almost twenty years, and has an adult daughter, Cassie.   Ways to connect with Wolf:   Linked IN; https://www.linkedin.com/in/randal-newton-john-4484b939/ Podcast: https://lucidlifeaus.podbean.com/ Website: https://lucidlife.com.au/       About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to talk with someone who I met through our own Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. And this gentleman's name is Wolf born. That's it, Wolf born, but that's not what he started with, originally, he actually started with Randall Newton John, or actually Randall born, Newton John, and change it to wolf born. And we're going to get into all of that, because it's a fascinating story, one you should hear. And I know he's got a lot of insights that he will bring to us about nature and and a lot of things I think that will be fun to to talk about so Wolf, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Wolf Born ** 02:05 Thank you, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to the chat,   Michael Hingson ** 02:09 and if you can't tell wolf born is with an accent like that Australian, yes,   Wolf Born ** 02:15 you can never hear your own accent, can you? But I'm sure it's pretty strong for for you in the States,   Michael Hingson ** 02:21 yeah. Which is, which is no problem. Well, why don't you start and tell us something about the early wolf born, or at that time, it would have probably been the earlier Randall, yeah.   Wolf Born ** 02:34 So I was, I'm born here in the south of Australia, so in Victoria, which is down south in southeastern part of Australia. And I, you know, lived in Melbourne, which is some of the bigger, bigger cities in Melbourne. And I think I had a very peaceful childhood. I don't think it wasn't anything particularly traumatic about it. When I reached my early 20s, I kind of made a big switch in my life. And, you know, I lived, you know, quite a said, peaceful suburban existence. You know, it was, you know, did well at school, that sort of stuff. And then around my early 20s, I completely changed. I   Michael Hingson ** 03:25 went, did you do the did you do the college thing?   Wolf Born ** 03:28 I did do the college thing. I got halfway. I got part of way through a degree, and then part and then I kind of, I actually went back and completed it later, okay? And that was in creative writing, professional writing. So my that was because my grandfather was a was a writer, my aunt was a journalist, like, there's just writing in the family, and was and I still write, write a lot, but I gave it up. And I didn't, I can give up my creative side, but I gave up kind of the study and the, you know, and went out, and they've quite a kind of wild existence in the bush as an artist and doing just, just completely throughout, I think, what I would the sort of more stable existence that I've been living and that I did that for a number of years, and then still move, shifted back into being as one does, shifted back into realizing you ought to settle down at some point, and then moved into, first into counseling, and then into quickly into management and up into executive management in mental health and disability. So a lot of my career has been in the management side. But I I kind of feel like my, yeah, my life has sort of had a number of acts to it, if you think of it like a play. And you know that part of my life, of. Living that in the bush was kind of like one act, and then I moved into a very different act of being in a sort of corporate, yes, not for profit, corporate, but corporate existence. And then now I'm shifting back and trying to sort of balance those two up in my life. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:18 certainly you are a creative person, and you come by it honestly, since your aunt was Olivia Newton, John, yeah, and one of my favorite people, love to listen to her singing and watch movies and so on. But you come by creativity and doing these kinds of things honestly. So you spent, you spent time, I think, doing some things in the theater or associating with it, yeah, yeah,   Wolf Born ** 05:46 I did. I've done quite a lot of performances, and I wrote a lot of music. I used to, as I used to, because I don't necessarily do as much of this now, but I would blow my work in terms of being an artist, was actually mask making. So I would work with a whole range of different masks, which is kind of a nice interface between fine art and performance. So it kind of Yeah, crossed over those two so and make masks in a whole lot of different ways as well. So I dabbled in a whole lot of different types of creativity. I'm certainly not like one type of thing, but I definitely have that creative spirit. And yes, I do think that was in the in the genetics with with Olivia, certainly that was something I think a lot of a lot of my family have have a creative bent. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:42 what were the masks for? Who were they for people to use on the stage or something? Or Yes, yes. So   Wolf Born ** 06:47 people would obviously use on the stage. I also did some, you know, just masks, like I did political satire masks, you know, my main mask for the politicians. And then people would wear those. It's kind of like for whatever reason they wanted to. Maybe they wanted to make fun of the politicians, I think, and but then, yeah, also just fine art ones, ones that people could just observe as a piece of art as well, just for pure beauty of because they are so it's a, you know, the face is obviously a infinitely variable thing, and you can make many, many different types of creations through the face. So yes, it's infinitely fascinating.   Michael Hingson ** 07:31 Reminds all of a sudden, what comes to mind is, I don't know whether you ever used to watch the US television show The Twilight Zone? Yes, yes. So there was one that took place on Mardi Gras, and it was this family of very arrogant people, and the uncle was dying, and on Mardi Gras night, and the night he died, he told everyone they had to put on masks. And they were these weird, horrible looking mask. But anyway, they put them on, what they didn't know is that when they took the masks off, their faces had churned to be the representation of what was in the mask. So it was kind of interesting masks.   Wolf Born ** 08:13 Yes, masks are very interesting, but the kind of interesting thing to play around with is in performance, because when you put on a mask, you know, a lot of our communication comes through our body language, and we actually don't see that in ourselves, because when other people see it, when ourselves. But if you put a mask on, particularly like a blank mask, and just watch yourself in the mirror, you can see the changes to the way that you do your your your body language comes across to other people. So you kind of learn quite a bit about yourself by wearing a mask at the same time you're covering yourself up. So they're an interesting kind of paradox between something that is hiding you and something that's actually revealing something about you at the same time in   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 2001 or maybe it was 2000 I don't recall which, but anyway, my brother in law was coming back with his family from France, and we all got tickets to go see The Lion King on Broadway. And that was really fascinating, because, of course, they had the animals that were all large puppets on wheels and so on. And what my wife told me was, as you watch this, you really don't even think of them as puppets or anything other than the animals that they are. You're drawn into the story, which I thought was pretty interesting. I got to go back and look at the backstage afterward, and intellectually, I can understand what she was saying.   Wolf Born ** 09:38 Yeah, it's fascinating, but I've seen performances. I don't wear the sort of line here I stay, but I've seen performance where people, you know, use masks really, really well as performers. And there's a point where, like, the mask, they become the mask. It's like, you can't tell the difference. It's like, they're they just inhabit the mask. And you. Feel like they are one with it, and that they're they it's not like they're just wearing something on their face anymore. Yeah, they're really, really interesting. And a lot of indigenous cultures have used masks and that, you know, as a way to, you know, to connect with the spirits. And they would know the mask would was, they would say would possess them, so they would become one with the mask. So mask has been used by humanity for for 1000s of years, and have hold very sort of sacred place in in certain cultures, you know, like, if you go to like Bali, and there's a lot of, you know, masks they make in Bali. And they're really, they're quite scary. Actually, a lot of them, they're like of demons and, you know, these spirits and all of these things. But they're, they're amazing, and to see them perform there, yeah, that they it's a really special thing to see.   Michael Hingson ** 10:59 Well, so why did you change your name? And when did you change your name to wolf born? That's got to be a fascinating story.   Wolf Born ** 11:06 Yeah. So I Not, not long ago. It was only a couple of years ago, but I it was part of this change of moving out of the of my corporate gig that I was in. But I've always been I've had name given myself a name of wolf as a nickname, for many, many years. So it wasn't like out of the blue. I The wolf is an interesting symbol for for for us, I think, and for me. You know, when we think about wolves, they're a wild Of course, you know. And there's something also mysterious about the wolf, the wolf howling at the moon, you know? It's an archetypal image that we all that has some, some sort of mystery. It sort of stirs something up in us. And the wolf is interesting also, because we also we think of the wolf pack. So we think of wolves or dogs as being loyal, you know, working together, working in packs. But we also think of them as the lone wolf, you know, the wolf that goes out by themselves and is like a lone leader or someone who charts a new course, right? So I really love the wolf, like because I love wolves, but also because they carry all of this meaning, which has kind of got this richness to it, and it sort of plays into my this third act I feel like my life of moving into really the connection to nature and to our own wildness, and to finding that wildness inside us. So yeah, so many reasons I when I put Wolf and put Bourne's actually came from a an ancestor I had, my great grandfather was, was actually Max Born, who was actually a famous physicist. So I   Michael Hingson ** 13:09 was wondering where the Born came from. Yeah, he was Max, Max   Wolf Born ** 13:12 Born. He worked with Einstein in theory of relativity, in those physics, and which won a Nobel Prize, I think in the it was in the 40s for So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:24 again, another, another shot at creativity. You you have it from all sides, yeah,   Wolf Born ** 13:30 from another angle, right from the science, scientific angle. So I He died on the same year I was born. So that's why I was called that was given the middle name born because he died in 1970 when I was when I was born. Was, when I was born. So I look, and I looked at our wolf was very Germanic, you know, like it's, you know, I could, could be someone straight out of Germany and but that's just, I guess, honoring that, that Germanic heritage, heritage that I do have. Wow.   Michael Hingson ** 13:58 So you, so you change your name to wolf born, and you you clearly, I think you described it very well when you talk about your life being in several acts. And of course, for me, the the act you you kind of did a little bit of what you're doing now earlier on, but then you moved away from it, went back into the corporate nonprofit world and so on. But tell me a little bit more about this whole idea of nature and what what you what you did before, and maybe what you're doing now, I would, and I would also say, I bet a lot of people, at least years ago, probably thought you flipped your wig. Yeah, yeah, they   Wolf Born ** 14:44 did. My mum was a little bit concerned for a while. I think she was quite, quite happy when I started settling down. But that that said, I think she also appreciates that I was, you know, and now we have many conversations and. And I think she appreciates what I was trying to do, which was to try to chart, you know, be the lone wolf, trying to chart my own course in the world. And that that meant that I had to break free and do my own thing. So it's interesting, back in the like when I did that, that I'll call the Wild Child phase, I you know, environmental awareness was, you know, it was pretty fringe back then. I mean, of course, there was talk of climate change, and there was talk of, of, you know, environmental destruction, but it wasn't like, forefront in people's minds like it is now. So it   Michael Hingson ** 15:36 was talk, as you said, it was, really, was talk, yeah,   Wolf Born ** 15:40 yeah. It was, it was like, yeah, yeah. And of course, you know that you get the, you know, the sort of prerogative term of being a tree hugger, you know, like you're just, you know, you're a hippie, and you really don't know what you're talking about. And you just, you just, you know, breaking free because, you know, you just don't want to deal with the world and look, in some ways, maybe that's true, but and that now, 30 years on 20 whatever, I kind of feel a little bit vindicated, as in those things that I was talking and wanting to respond to, which was About, yes, it was about creativity and about finding my own self. But it was more than that, also. It was around about a connection with nature, and feeling that, firstly, that we have disconnected from nature in a lot of ways, the West has anyway, and that that there's a lot of power and a lot of wisdom that we can learn by being in nature. So I've taken that now, and I because of my I have been in the world, and my second act, and I have learned those rules and understanding how, you know the world structured, and how we we make the machinery work. So it's for me, it's around. It's not so much for me, around that we return to a state, you know, looking to return to a state which is pre industrial, but it is around that we need to, and I say we as in that's my interest in social change. We need to just open up to nature, and all of these effects that we're seeing from climate change and other environmental impacts just sort of reinforcing that. My interest, there's a lot of work, of course, being done in this area. And, you know, there's, it's, it's now, you know, happening. Everyone's talking about it. And this, you know, environmental, social governance frameworks and a whole lot of different you know, global treaties, you know, agreements and so forth and so it goes. But my interest is as a creative person, and somebody that's worked in mental health and disability is really around that inner change, that that understanding that we are nature, that when that nature is not separate from us, our bodies are constantly being recycled through nature, even throughout a lifetime. We are, you know, the stuff of nature, and we were born from it and we die into it. So it's about, for me, it's around, trying to look at that and also look at that. Now that I've had the experience of working in systems, about how that might be translated into systems, or into what I say, you know, the whole corporate world, or into the capitalist world, so that, that's kind of my, my bent on it. I get a lot of joy from being in nature. And I live on on a fairly large, you know, number of acres, and I'm very much attuned, or to tune myself as much as I can to nature on a daily basis. But for me, the it's, again, it's not about everyone has to live in nature, or everyone has to be, you know, hugging trees. It's around what, what's that nature inside of us, and how are we connected to that? So that's, that's kind of where I'm, what I'm interested in, and sort of changing people's consciousness around that, which is, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a big change. I mean, it's not something that we all you. Always been there. We've always sort of somewhat understood that. But it's a big change to when we've got a, you know, such a capitalist juggernaut that we have, which is kind of led to, you know, such a degrading of the planet, to then kind of go now we have to listen to nature and genuinely partner with nature, which is how I kind of put it. It's a, it's a big change for us. And you know, I'm I'm still learning that too. I'm a I've been born of that age. I'm not in any way, like completely outside of the system in any way, but I'm learning how to do that, find that balance more myself and and talk to other people about that as well.   Michael Hingson ** 20:43 You're, you're learning to listen to yourself. You're learning to listen to what's around you. And you're, you're trying to find ways to meld all that together. I shouldn't even say find ways. You're finding ways to meld all that together, which really makes a lot of sense, because so many of us just don't listen to ourselves at all. We don't listen to what's around us. We choose to ignore things, and we if we can't see it, it isn't real. If we can't taste it, it isn't real, even though we could probably taste it more and see it more if we looked. But yeah, I hear what you're saying, and it's pretty fascinating. Well, what did you do in the in the mental health and disabilities world that that help you? Now that you're you're out of the nonprofit world and so on, but you spend time dealing with disabilities and mental health and so on. I'd love to learn about that.   Wolf Born ** 21:43 Yeah, so I worked. I started as a counselor. I was actually telephoned and online counseling was primarily what I did and and that was dealing with really high people in very high distress. So I was working on like suicide lines, veterans lines to veterans from war, people with mental health, range of mental health issues and and had on a men's line, which was for men with relationship breakdown, breakdown, so really high distress, people in high distress, who would call in, you know, at any time, that was 24/7 so it was calling any time of the day or night, and it would be a short term counseling to help them to sort of settle and to bring themselves back into a little bit of balance so they could go live. And sometimes it was to prevent them from taking their lives, because there were a number of them that were right on the edge of taking their lives when they when they contacted us. So I guess that sort of really gives you a deep picture into the sort of I call the word darker, but I don't mean in a that's bad sense, but just the sense that distressed, or the darker side, underbelly of the world, like, you know, those people, you know, we live in a world where we're often meant to put a good face on and be, you know, look good and be happy and and then you talk to these People and you realize, well, that's nearly not or for every like, there are a number of people that are really, really struggling with their mental health and and they're still having to get on with their lives. And it kind of made me realize that, you know, we look out the world and we we see people who might be on a on a train or a bus, and we just don't know. We just don't know what people are going through really. And you do it really, you know we do hone your feeling of compassion for people. So I moved, so, yeah, so I had that, that that direct experience, but then I moved out of that, into very quickly, and went into and when I moved out, I was did it for a number of years, but when I moved out of work, quickly moved up into executive management, so up to top tiers of management. And there's such a different world, like, it's a world of numbers and funding and, you know, regulations and all of these things. But I stayed, I never moved out of the not profit, because I believe that what we what I was doing by running these organizations, was, you know, was the underpinning of the work, like, if the organizations weren't there, well, then then the counselors or the support workers wouldn't be able to do their job. So I, I still have a lot of belief in those organizations. I just believe that they, unfortunately, they've got caught up in a corporate the bad, I won't say corporate is always bad, but in the in the more. Um, less, more or less positive sides of of the corporate mindset, which can be a lot of stress, a lot of not necessarily, thinking about the people who are on the ground, the workers who are on the ground, and getting a bit lost in the numbers, a little lost in the in having to deal with the world, and I totally understand why, because I've been there, it's a huge amount of pressure you get from all angles to make that work. But I I still very much believe in that. I mean, and the organizations I worked in were good, because, like the disability organization I worked in, which was more people with, mainly people with intellectual disabilities. You know, there was still a very much, it still was quite grounded. There were the clients were, you know, very much part of the day that wasn't, I weren't completely disconnected from them or anything like that. But it was still, I felt that it was, it ran the risk of losing touch with the core of it. What the work?   Michael Hingson ** 26:05 Well, one of the questions that comes to mind is dealing with people with intellectual or developmental disabilities and so on. I think again, it goes back to a stereotype, but most people think, well, they really just don't have it. They're not, they're not, maybe that bright or whatever. But it seems to me that in reality, especially if they get the opportunity to interact, there is just as much as involved as anyone else, absolutely   Wolf Born ** 26:38 and you know the thing about I just found delightful about people with intellectual disability that that they carry with them if, and this is if they're in if they are well supported. You know, if they're not well supported, they can, they can, can be very difficult for them. But if they're well supported, they are very joyful people like that, like, it's like they have a natural, open heart, you know, like not they're not necessarily as jaded or as as closed down as a lot of People without an intellectual disability, developmental disability, and so the I think we have a lot to learn from, from people with those disabilities, because they they see the world in different way. They respond to people. And there is this, this, this, some would say, a vulnerability, but, but also that comes with a great deal of open heartedness. So, yeah, it was a real joy to to work with them a challenging a lot of times, for sure, why they communicate, and they're, you know, like people, for instance, with high end autism, you know, can be very, very easily triggered, like very, very, very, very sensitive to the slightest changes, and can get very upset very quickly, and it can be really challenging. So it's not, it's not a walk in the park in any way. It's not like they're always it's always easy for them in any way. But, but that that there is that underlying feeling that you get from them, that they really are beautiful people and and you know that that was something that, you know, that was something that I think I'm really privileged, because a lot of people don't get to experience that. They do see them, those people as like, oh, I don't know how to deal with them. You know, it's all, they're all a little bit too difficult to to handle, kind of thing. It's like, not really, not when you get to know them. They just have to know get to know them. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:45 I did a speech once at some sort of a nursing function. It's been a long time, and another person was there, who also was giving a talk after mine, and she said she was autistic. She was on the autism scale, and she said if there were ever a really loud noise. She couldn't help it, but she would react well about a third of the way through the talk. For some reason, the PA system just had this huge amount of feedback. And of course, she reacted. For me, it was I had never heard of that sort of situation happening until she explained it. Then it was, I don't want to say fascinating to see, but it was interesting to see that she did react, but very quickly she came back and she continued to do the rest of her speech. But yeah, we all have challenges and we all have gifts, and it's just so unfortunate that all too often we decide that we're going to decide why we're better than everybody else, and it's one of the reasons I react so strongly to the concept of visually impaired, because visually I'm not different because I'm blind, and certainly I shouldn't be viewed as being impaired, but the experts in the field created that term. And it's such a disservice to blind people, rather than saying blind and low vision, which which completely takes impaired out of the equation. I   Wolf Born ** 30:09 mean, yeah, I had a friend. I had a friend of mine who was blind, and he was the most amazing mechanic, incredible mechanic, and he would do it entirely by touch and sound, and he was really, really well respected and and, you know, basically did some things that other mechanics couldn't do, because he had to hone his own, his other so it's, it's kind of like, Yeah, so one sense is, is affected, but then you you, that means you heighten your other abilities. So it's sort of like, yeah, swings and roundabouts in some ways. I mean, I   Michael Hingson ** 30:45 think you say it the right way, because it isn't that it's an automatic process. You have to hone those skills. And you know, just because you lose eyesight, it doesn't mean that your hearing and other senses are better unless you work at it. But the reality is that people who do work at it like your friend the mechanic. I know there's a winemaker in New Zealand, and I think there's one in Australia as well. There are some chemists here in the United States and elsewhere. There was a brain surgeon who was blind, and the American Medical Association, huh? I don't know that they ever really would grant him a license, except his patients loved him.   Wolf Born ** 31:30 I know I don't been sensitive, sensitivity like that, yeah, yeah, no, it's and the other thing is, I think personally that that everyone has had some disabilities, like, I personally think, like, for instance, me, I'm terrible with heights. I'm just terrible, like, I get worse vertigo, right? And to me, it's a disability, right? What do   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 you what do you do when the power goes out?   Wolf Born ** 31:52 What do you mean when the power goes out? Heights, not lights, heights. What do you mean the power goes out?   Michael Hingson ** 31:58 What do you do when you lose all electricity.   Wolf Born ** 32:02 I'm okay when I lose the electricity, I don't I don't freak out   Michael Hingson ** 32:05 see but most people do. And I figured that you would say that because you're used to being in an environment where you're not necessarily where light is, but Thomas Edison invented the light bulb so that we would have light on demand. And for most people, they don't know how to deal with it, if suddenly they lose all access to electric lighting, and they go off, they find a smartphone or whatever, and that's fine, but the reality is that's as much a disability as anything else. Like to COVID   Wolf Born ** 32:34 Exactly, we become. We become, and I mean, one of the reasons I don't because we got lots of power outages where I am, so I get used to but the that, yeah, we can create those dependencies, and therefore we lose our some of our coping skills, which it can, in a way, can become its own form of of a disability or own form of a lack of ability. But yeah, so I think it's about diversity, and that we have different people with different diversities. And if you work with people with, you know, with more, you know, say, intellectual disability, where we're there, they do need some do need 24/7 support, because they would not be able to cope in the in the general world, in terms of break there, but it doesn't mean that they don't have, you know, these, these other parts themselves that can surpass the in other ways, as I said, like the the ability to the gifts of other people, emotion, yeah, the gifts of what they have, the other gifts, yeah, their ability to keep, emotionally open and connected with people. So   Michael Hingson ** 33:43 you were a pretty high level executive, and then you just really decided to drop it all, huh? Yes,   Wolf Born ** 33:50 yeah, I did. It was interesting, and I didn't really reflect on afterwards. You don't mind if I go a little bit into this, into the spiritual side of this kind of things, right? So it was not long, so Olivia died in 2022 August, 2022 and I had this dream that I met her. It was only a few days after died, after she died, and anyway, she she took me through these to her some of her friends, and I was there to help her say goodbye to some of her friends. And at the end of the dream, she sort of faded off. And the last thing she said was, was live your light, which was very Olivia, because she was all about love and light. So in so and although I didn't necessarily sort of do, gave up the drop thing. But literally, a week after that, I. Go at my job, and for me, it has been about living my light that I do this because I felt that I had had I'd had my light suppressed, working in a world that probably was not exactly made for me. And so it was a case of being, yeah, true to myself. And, you know, following that path that I felt was was more closely aligned to who I was, which isn't it is part manager, part business leader. I'm not, I don't give that up. But it's also part artist, part counselor or healer and part environmental activist. So I think all of I had to respect all those parts of me and integrate those parts of me. So, yeah, so it was a beautiful dream. I'll never forget that dream, because she definitely came to me in spirit, and it was her wife saying goodbye to me. So it was really beautiful. So   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 I won't say that was an eerie sounding dream, because it wasn't. It's It sounds very beautiful. And then I appreciate you being willing to share that and tell it. But what so what do you do now? Specifically, yeah, I know you call yourself a corporate Shaman. I'd love to learn more about that and exactly what you do. This helps people so.   Wolf Born ** 36:28 So my, my journey at the moment is, really, I've got some, you know, some things that I do. I've got layer B and B and stuff like that. So I've got things going on the background, just day to day stuff to get me going, but my my path is, is really at this stage around talking to people, about talking about this, about nature and and, and about changing that mindset around this, this idea that nature is Separate to us, to bring something inside of us. And so, you know, talking, like on these talking, I've got a conference coming up, I've got a podcast that I that I have put online with that, with that theme, and then talking to just individuals. So it's early days for me in terms of my impact. Because what I'm saying doesn't always go to the truth. Doesn't always go down that well. Because I think a lot of a lot of lot of people that they hear, they think, Oh, you're taking it, what you're actually saying is take away my profits. And it's like, well, I'm not there to destroy the system. But, you know, it does. It does bring up some stuff for people, because I am about, well, we have to change, you know, we have to do something different, and that does require us to to actually adjust the way of doing it, and what that means for our profitability, our capitalist mechanisms. I'm not sure. It's not necessarily what I'm on about. I'm not, I'm not there to destroy everything. But yeah, so at the moment I this is, this is what I'm doing. I'm talking to people, putting information out there. And my my longer vision is, is working a little bit more hands on in organizations to to more work directly with people, because a lot of my work that I do, and I do also work with individuals, with not so much in that corporate space, but more just In a personal development space around connecting with nature, and what a lot of the work that I do is not, it's not verbal. In other words, it's, it's working with things like sound, connecting with nature, directly, working with with ritual, or like in ritual theater or or, you know, ways of connecting, which are to do with symbolic ways of operating. So I'm that's kind of where, where my because that brings in my artistic side, right? That brings in the side of me that that works in outside of the realm of language, and in about the body, about the about our about our energy, so that that's where I'm moving towards. But I do understand that most people operate through their minds and through language, and they need to feel comfortable about that. They need to be feel that it's that I that I'm not just a crazy person, that I do know what I'm talking about, but also that that they understand that there are very there's a lot of there's a lot of science behind this, when you start looking into it, and there's also, you know, centuries, a millennia of history when you when you are. Go back into indigenous people that have used these techniques and these ways of being and and so therefore, you know, this is something that people have to, sort of, yeah, get their minds kind of comfortable with before they're willing to jump into something that's non verbal, something that's, you know, maybe a little bit scary, because it's taking them out of their comfort zone, which is, you know, to talk through things. It's   Michael Hingson ** 40:22 interesting. You talk about the fact that a lot of people react with, well, you're just trying to tell me to get rid of my profits. And I know that's not what you're saying and and it doesn't need to be that way. But the problem is, once again, people get locked into viewing profit and making money, and that there's only one way to do it, and that's, of course, really part of the issue. And so they won't step out and look at other opportunities or other options that may actually very greatly enhance what they do, because it will teach them more about how to interact with other people and and help them in forming stronger teams and stronger relationships. And that's what you're really talking about. That's right?   Wolf Born ** 41:06 And I think it's my background in not for profits. Obviously, a not for profit is a is, you know, though, they do have certain small surpluses because they put invest that back into the business. But the the ethos is, it's about the value of what you're helping people with. In my case, in terms of middle life and disability, that's the that's the purpose of the money. Like the money isn't there just to create the money. Yes, you get paid, and people have a livelihood from it, but it's not the purpose of the organization. So I do hold that as being my background, and money is something that is a tool, and it can be used for good or ill, and it's, it's, it's about the problem for us is that it's such a runaway train in our society that how do we actually sort of rein it in so that it doesn't become the force that that destroys the planet and destroys the society. So, you know, it's working. Money is a very it's a very tricky thing, because we hold a lot of beliefs about and there's a lot of it's very easy for it to get out of, out of, you know, to take away from the core. The core essence of money is value. It's value that we're talking about, and that's why people spend money, because they get value out of something, and if that value is is channeled in the right way, yes, money, sure, money can be used for good purposes, and that we can money's not going away, so we have to, we have to embrace it anyway. So, yeah, it's about, how do we somehow find this, this value and this value connected, for me, connected back to nature. It's not an easy path, not an easy path at all, because we, you know, all of the ways in which we structured things, but, but that's, that's kind of what, what I'm kind of saying you've   Michael Hingson ** 43:09 talked about nature being in us and so on. What do you mean by seeing nature within us?   Wolf Born ** 43:17 Well, maybe one of the best ways to, one of the ways to explain it would be to think about the cycles of nature. So nature goes through a cycle which is always the same. It's always birth, growth, decay, death and rebirth, like it's that's what nature does. Is perpetually going through those cycles, and that they the ability to recognize that in order to be in balance with nature, in order to be see that nature inside of us, we've got to respect those cycles, all parts of those cycles within ourselves and within the groups and the societies that we work in, and in our society, particularly decay and death is not respected. It's shunned, and it's generally seen as something to avoid at all costs. And so we've thrown that cycles out of balance because we've got so caught up in the birth and growth phases that we've we've lost the respect and the and the honoring of of decay and death. And so it's not to lose the birth and it's the whole cycle is needed, right? That's the cycles of the seasons. It's the cycles of everything. So to see nature in us is to one way, and then there are. There are many ways of doing this, but I think it's a sort of a simple example, is to respect those cycles in ourselves, honor those cycles in ourselves and in our relationships and in and the broader communities and organizations that we work in. So. So it's not a you know, seeing as not necessarily, you know, can seem quite esoteric and things, but actually things like that, they're quite simple. But you do see how, once you look at outside and to look at the way we run our society, particularly, again, particularly in the West, is that, you know, we've thrown those, some of those basic principles and and lost them.   Michael Hingson ** 45:28 Okay? And I can buy that. I understand that. Tell me a little bit more about why it's important for us to align with nature and what that means.   Wolf Born ** 45:41 So the Okay, so I mean, the obvious example here is, is climate change, right? Because we're seeing that as impacting us globally. It's affecting all of us, right? So one of the things that there's a lot of practical stuff going on, a lot of work going on in the field to make the practical changes, and that's all necessary. But I think often what's forgotten is that it's the mindset, it's the underlying way in which we live that has been precursor to this whole issue, and the way that I see that is that we are, we're overheated. And this is just not just my ideas, it's many people talk about this, but the way we're overheated in all aspects of our life, and that's speed, it's stress, it's over consumption, it's working too hard. It's it's heat, it's heat in the body, and it translates into heat in the body. A lot of people have chronic inflammation in their body. It's translating into actual health issues for people. So we look at this, this issue outside of ourselves, and say, All this climate change. It's something we need to fix, and something outside, but aligning with nature is actually saying, okay, that's in us too. That's in me, that inflammation, that heat, that over that over consumption, that that not allowing things to settle, not allowing things to rest, not allowing things to take their time and to regrow and to, you know, to let things emerge in their own time, which is what nature does that helps us, but it also is the mindset that can help us to to change some of these seemingly unfixable problems, because you can't, you know, there's often that thing about you need to fight fire with fire, not not in this case, you need to fight fire with water. And water is in symbolically, it's cool. It's about calling everything down. And that's slowing things down, calling things down, taking a breath, letting things settle, and not rushing into the next, and that's what nature does. Nature goes through its cycles of heat, but it also goes through its cycles of cool, and if we align with that, then we can actually help our own health, mental and physical health, and we can also work with other people in a much more generous way, in a much more compassionate way, because we're not rushing from the next thing to the next thing. So that's kind of one of the fundamental kind of principles that I have around aligning with nature, because it's not, it's something we can see outside of ourselves, but it's also something we can see inside of ourselves as well. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 48:38 Well, and the reality is that I hear all the time. I don't have time to even take a few minutes just to think about the day. And I urge people to do self analysis, internal analysis at the end of the day, and possibly at the beginning, and say, take the time to look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work? I don't like failure. I don't think that's a good term, but things don't work all the time, and maybe we didn't listen to a nudge that would have helped us, but things work and they don't work, and we we don't take the time to analyze what goes on and even the things that work well, could we do them better? People won't take the time to do that, and that is as much slowing down as anything else. The reality is, from my position, and my view is, we can't afford double negative not to take the time. We should take the time, because we're the ones that have to teach ourselves how to do things. We're going to be our own best teachers. We always will be, yep,   Wolf Born ** 49:45 and so yeah. And that's classic way of slowing down is to actually, rather than do more stuff, or, you know, have that glass of alcohol at the end of the day, or, you know, rush out and, you know, so, you know. A party or something, because you're stressed and you need to, you know, de stress. It just add more action, add more heat into the situation. Yeah, to reflect, to analyze is it requires you to slow down, requires you to to actually unpick your thoughts and to go, Okay, well, which? And look at what happened and and sort of take the time. And it is, is a lot about time, and people are so scared that if they stop that everything's going to fall apart. And of course, what we're realizing is that if we just keep going, going, going, that's the precursor, that's the burnout, that's that's where things when you just keep going. It's when you can actually find time to to to, as you said, to analyze, or to slow down, or to or to meditate, or whatever it is that that things are going to get are going to start to write themselves a bit more in terms of balance. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 50:57 then it's and it's really so crucial to do. I know my wife passed away in November of 2022 we were married 40 years, and there are a number of times during the day that I'll just sit or I'll do stuff, but I don't need to have the TV on. We usually have the TV or the radio or something on, and I still like to have it on, but I can just as easily not have it on, have some silence and take time to meditate. And I've always liked to meditate anyway, but to meditate and ponder, and there's a lot of value in doing that. And so for me, I've learned, especially since she's passed, because now it is just me. The value of doing that, yeah,   Wolf Born ** 51:44 I mean, it's very easy. There's so much out there that can distract us. And, you know, it's so easy, you got the phones and social media and TVs and everything else, and it's so easy, so easy. And I find myself sometimes I drop into social media. What am I doing? I need this. I don't this helping me at all. And I just, like, have to, like, okay, stop, stop, just, just turn off. And just like, you do not need more stimulus. But it's really easy to, I think, and so, yeah, and particularly when we're processing, you know, as you said, a bit of the you're, you know, a loss, you know, we, you know, that's also really important to take the time to feel it and to and to be with that, even if it's not always easy, but, yeah, it's, it's a, it's something that it's susceptible simple, but we've, we've, you know, It's also really easy to fall out of that as well. Well, often,   Michael Hingson ** 52:44 I know for me, one of one of the things that I tell people is that I tend not to spend a lot of time on Facebook because it just takes too long to do anything. And I'm amazed at the number of people who I do post occasionally on Facebook, and I can't believe the number of people who, within just a few minutes respond to it. Are they just sitting there waiting for something to show up? Or, gee, you know, there are other things in the world to do, but I, yeah,   Wolf Born ** 53:13 I'm not a huge fan of those feeds, because they just don't seem to go anywhere for me. They just seem to be like, well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:18 I post when I've got something meaningful that I want to put up, like about, I put up some posts about the new book that we're, we're going to be publishing in in August. Or, you know, I'll do other things, and I may comment on a few things, but if I spend, if I spend 10 minutes a day on Facebook, that's a lot. Yeah, yeah,   Wolf Born ** 53:39 yeah. What I meant is that we the, it's the, it's the it's the, I mean, the feet of people's responses, because you put up something, and there's this whole conversation, you know, this supposed conversation, that goes on, but when you read it, it's just disconnected, yeah, doesn't go anywhere. Like no one comes to any conclusion. No one actually says, I think we've now solved, I think we're not agreeing with that never, ever, ever, ever says, I think we all agree because ever agrees.   Michael Hingson ** 54:09 Well as a as a speaker, I do send out a lot of letters and proposals or respond to proposals and so on, but if there is ever a phone number that anyone leaves, I will call it because I think that it's so much more relevant to have a conversation and get to know them, and they get to know me. Whether it leaves anywhere is another story, and actually many times it does, but I think that there is so much more value and true connectionalism, and you don't get that from email or social media, no matter what anyone says. I mean,   Wolf Born ** 54:48 I learned that very quickly in the managers like my rule was, if the email went more than a couple of lines, pick up the phone. Yeah, because as soon as you try to explain something. Complex in an email, like you try to, sort of, you know, there's a couple of points, or you need to, kind of have some nuance to it. It just gets lost in translation. And inevitably, you can email back going, but I didn't, and it's like, just call me just or meet me face to face, and just like this, just talk this through. And yeah, and it was, you know, you it's, you know, email is fine for very transactional things. But it gets so either used,   Michael Hingson ** 55:22 yeah? Oh, it does. What is this thing you talk about, called regenerative business? Yeah,   Wolf Born ** 55:27 regenerative business, the terminology has been around for a few years now. It's kind of taking the idea of sustainable so sustainable businesses, the idea that we don't, you know that we we use, it's a 00, sum game in terms of the impact that we have on the environment. So, you know, we recycle, or we make sure that there's, we're not no carbon neutral, all those sorts of things where we're trying to not make things worse in terms of the environment. But in regenerative business is about, and it's, you know, it's part of an ideal as much as anything, but it's around putting back. So we're in a state where we're in a degraded environment, and so businesses that are attempting to go beyond just being neutral and actually have a positive impact on the environment. Now, whether that's, you know, how that works, it's, you know, there's a lot of something can be quite skeptical about that, whether that's with it in this kind of system we're in, but that is, it's a, I mean, for me, it's a vision, an important vision to have, especially in a degraded environment. Now it also tends to connect with regenerative society and people as well. But I do like, personally, to put those two together and not think of them as separate things, so that we, as we work with nature, we're also working with the way in which people relate to each other and social value that we have put to create.   Michael Hingson ** 56:55 So what? What exactly do you do in your business today? What? How are you helping people? Or what do you do? And love to hear a story about something that you've done, some success story, or something like that. Yeah,   Wolf Born ** 57:08 I said my my work at the moment is, is really around sort of communicating this, this work, and being able to work with people around changing their mindset. Look, I'm not going to give you I'll give you a story that's around connecting with nature, because to me, that's what it's all about, right? Perfect. And I was doing some work with a guy on my property, because I have clients come out to my property and we work on my I've got nine acres. So, you know, I've got a nice sort of, hey, I've got some space. I've got some space, and I've got a beautiful old eucalypt tree in my house, and it would be several 100 years old, really beautiful old, old tree. And we were doing some work around connecting with with nature and helping him to to, you know, listen and observe, and to bring his energy into into nature. And we're just sort of finishing up, and I was just, and I hadn't sort of mentioned the tree, was just in front of this big tree. And I was just mentioning this tree, and sort of literally, as I pointed up and said to know, he was this, you know, called grandmother tree. And as I did this, these two cooker bars, you know, cooker Barras. Do you know laughing, laughing bears, yes, a very iconic Australian animal, right? Yes. And amazing birds, you know, they're anyway, these two cooker bars fly up onto the, onto this, onto the branch of this tree, and just burst into laughter, burst into their song, and then just fly off again. And it was like, there you go. There's nature responding to you? If you acknowledge nature, she'll respond back to you. And, yeah, it was such a such an amazing moment, because it was like, Wow. That was like, so incredible for nature to do to and like, you know, you can't control it. Like, do it with other person. May not happen. But it was like, Yeah, that's the sort of magic I love. And that feeling when you really feel like you know nature is communicating and you're communicating two ways, and yeah, it's heartwarming. Several   Michael Hingson ** 59:35 years ago, I got my wife for a Valentine's Day present, and Valentine's Day was also her birthday, so she got a double whammy, a gabara Daisy. And then recently, the person who works for me, Josie, found some others, and so we've now got a bigger gabara Daisy collection. And they're not they're actually plants, not just flowers, yeah, and I. Water them every week, and I talk to them, and I am sure that I've read enough about such things that I know that they sense thought patterns and whether I'm thinking good things about them or not, and I always like to talk with them and and think and do think good things about them, because I really value having them in the house.   Wolf Born ** 1:00:21 Yeah, their little their friends, their friends. They are. They are, yeah, yeah. And that's kind of cool. It is. It's and the more that we connect with nature as a friend, like, genuinely, as a friend, just the more that nature will give back to us, like nature is very generous when, when we actually give, give, and we give ourselves and we give our hearts to nature. So, so yeah, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a magical thing when we, when we find that connection.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:53 There are a lot of negative things going on around nature, and all right now we talked about climate change, and people are all over the place, on that and politicizing it. And there's so many other things happening. Where do you see hope?   Wolf Born ** 1:01:08 A few areas, the fact that the number, it seems negative, but I think there's a real positive underneath the fact that so many people aren't sort of what we call echo anxiety, or ecological anxiety. Ecological grief is a real thing for people. And the fact that so many people are feeling like, like, it's not just like, oh, well, yeah, it's just a practical problem we've got to deal with. You know, let's just get on with it. You know, whatever people are really feeling that's sure, it's politicized, and some people aren't, some people aren't, but there is a good sway that people that are and that and it's growing, and it's growing, and that means people care. That means people care. The fact they're feeling those things means they care. And they care really, really deeply, and so that although it's not pleasant, and although it's it's it's, it hurts people to feel those those feelings, it's a really good sign that people actually that matters. And therefore, though they want to make change. I think also another thing is the increased awareness of indigenous peoples around the planet. I mean, that is slow in some areas, but it is growing. And that movement around respecting indigenous people is is only a good thing, because they bring all that wisdom around nature and understanding a lot of the things that we've lost by separating ourselves from nature. So I think that's a really positive sign. And I think also for on the practical side, that there's a huge amount of inventiveness, technological inventiveness, around different ways of constantly seeing and you had mentioned around, you know, whatever, whatever it is, you know, planting trees or decarbonizing, or, you know, water, or whatever it is. And so I think that there's an enormous amount of inventiveness and creativity going into this problem. So I think that's also really positive   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:58 our President, Joe Biden over the last couple of weeks, I think I've got the date right, but once all fossil fuel vehicle sales of new vehicles to end by 2030 or 2035 now I'm sure there are going to be lots of folks who will continue to deal with causing a lot of grief over that, even though what Biden would say is it's really necessary to try to bring the environment a little bit more back in line with what it should be. But again, it's a it's a political thing, but, but, you know, I would hope that someone on the line, some of these people who just want to politicize it and say, well, he's just crazy, might step back and think a little bit about what is really the problem with it. Is it going to really mess up the structure of vehicle manufacturers and corporations? Doesn't need to, you know, it's just so many things. Again, we don't look at all of the options. Somebody says one thing, and obviously,   Wolf Born ** 1:04:07 a lot of, yeah, there's obviously a lot of investors interested in keeping but, but, but I think that, yeah, when you look at the world a lot from another, from a logical point of view, no, it's not. It's not like you can't do this. It's not, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I've read somewhere that I know whether it's true or not, that we actually already have the technological solutions to make this work, but it's political will is the most difficult thing, and that's exactly why I want to with people, because they don't technology great. Like, do it, it's needed. Like, absolutely fantastic. Not my area, but, yeah, changing the hearts of people, so that they feel and that they connect is, to me, where the big change will happen, because it's going to change through people making new decisions. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:52 and it will, I think, you know, I have a lot of faith in people overall, and I have a lot of faith in the planet. And. I'm sure that we're going to figure it out somehow, someway, maybe not as soon as we could, but we'll get there. Yeah, yeah. Well, this, well, this has really been fun. If people want to reach out to you, do you work with people virtually at all, or only physical? Yeah.   Wolf Born ** 1:05:19 So I always have people, you know, I mean, as I said, the some of these ways of practicing connecting, you know, don't require being in nature with me or, I mean, it's nice and it's kind of adds, add something, but being able to connect in with you, with yourself, and through the to nature within can be done as just as you've talked about, you know, with you just stopping and I can, you know, help people to guide them through that.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:50 Yeah, so, being the Creative Writing guy that you are, have you written any books?   Wolf Born ** 1:05:54 I haven't written any books. Oh, come on,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:57 you're the guy that has the degree in creative writing, you know? No,   Wolf Born ** 1:06:01 I guess part of me was, I do I write the short forms and, yeah, but I guess I'm because I'm a little bit more now in the thing of, I really want to work with this non verbal stuff, you know? You   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:15 want to work with people, yeah, people. I   Wolf Born ** 1:06:17 want to work in the silence. I want to work in the in the sound. I want to work in the nature, in people's heartbeats, if you like, I want to work with the body that that's like a kind of holds me back from, like, really committing to to going full down the book wrote or something, because I feel like I'm that will put me into a language, into more into language. And it's kind of like it's important, all that language is really important, but also this non verbal stuff, and that's what I'm kind of fascinated about. How do we work with people the way that's non verbal and creating different ways of communicating? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:50 if people want to reach out to you and contact you and work with you, how do they do that?   Wolf Born ** 1:06:55 So They Can I have a website which is lucid life.com.au,   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:04 so say that once more   1:07:05 lucid life, lucid life, lucid   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:08 Lucy, l, U, C, i, d,   Wolf Born ** 1:07:10 lazy. Life, yes.com. Dot A, u, because or I've got an email which is lucid life, a, us@gmail.com and so the AUS a, us for Australia, lucid,   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:26 lucid life Australia   Wolf Born ** 1:07:28 as those things, that's probably the two easiest ways to connect with me. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:32 hope people will do it. I This has absolutely been fun and formative and inspiring in so many ways. And Wolf, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this and found it interesting and that you can see your way clear to think about in a very positive way. Some of the things that wolf born has talked about today. Pleasure, Michael, it's been fun. If you'd like to reach out to me, folks, please feel free to do so you can email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and I think, as I mentioned at the very beginning, Wolf, we've got, we met through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. We did, yes, and so you've done, you've done some things with accessibe In the past, I guess,   Wolf Born ** 1:08:23 yes, yeah, we connected through that, through the disability, because I was working in disability, so we connected there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:28 That's cool. You're also welcome to go to my podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, N, just like it sounds anyway. Michael hingson.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, I would really appreciate it if you could give us a five star rating. We value your ratings and your thoughts and value your input and will for you and for everyone out there. If you know of anyone else who you think we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please reach out, let us know, introduce us. We're always looking for more fun and fascinating people to have. So with that, I want to thank you once again, Wolf for being on unstoppable mindset with us. This has been fun. Thank   Wolf Born ** 1:09:13 you, Michael, as I said, it's been a pleasure. And it's, yes, it's, it's, it's delightful talking about with someone who you know, we just bounce off each other. It's been the hour has flown by.   Michael Hingson ** 1:09:27 It really has. It's gone right by. I really appreciate you being here. Thank   Michael Hingson ** 1:09:38 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.