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I would like you to meet one of Canada’s top 100 black women to watch, Chenai Kadungure. Chenai and I had a quite engaging conversation this episode. She grew up in Zimbabwe where she went through high school. She then left her homeland and traveled elsewhere. She received her second Master’s degree from the University of North Carolina in 2016. She now resides in Toronto and serves as the executive director of the Ontario Black Physicians Association. She and I discussed topics such as authenticity, diversity and leadership. Chenai has many life observations that are quite interesting and worth your time to hear. About the Guest: Chenai is a passionate, dynamic professional with proven experience building vital relationships and leading impactful programs and projects. Voted one of Canada's Top 100 Black Women to Watch, a Globant Inspiring Leader nominee and an RBC and Global News Hometown Hero, she is an intuitive leader able to build relationships at all levels, in diverse communities. She is an analytical futurist that is highly adaptable, and fearless in solving complex problems. An energetic motivational public speaker and keynote, Chenai pours herself into everything she does. As a proud Rotarian and President of the Global Partners in Peace remains one of "Service Above Self". ** ** Ways to connect with Chenai: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chenai-kadungure Instagram: @chenkad About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:
Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we get to talk with someone from Toronto, Canada. I'm going to probably well I'm going to do my best to pronounce her name first name is Chenai and her last name is Kadungure, Kadungure, or something close to that. There's a D in it. But people if you're speaking appropriately, you don't pronounce the D but some people do and my screen reader does it actually makes her last name, Kadungure. Her. So there you go figure that out. And I it's technology. But we really are glad to have you here on unstoppable mindset. Chenai is a very passionate individual. She helps to build dynamic and valuable relationships. And she has been voted one of the top 100 Black Women to Watch in Canada. And that's worth doing. So Chenai, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Chenai Kadungure ** 02:20 Yes, I'm so glad. I'm so glad and excited to be here. Thanks, Michael. Michael Hingson ** 02:26 Well, thank you for being here. We're really grateful that you are taking the time to do it. And we're doing something a little bit different today, everyone, we're doing this on a Saturday, we normally do things during the week. And it is 630 in the afternoon in Toronto, so we don't want Chenai to starve. So we'll move right along. But we'll have a lot of fun doing this, I'm sure. And we'll we'll go from there. So why don't we start I love to start this way. Tell me a little bit about kind of the early Chenai growing up and so on. Chenai Kadungure ** 02:57 The early Chenai I was a bit of a troublemaker I was I went to a Dominican convent High School in Harare, Zimbabwe. And I think I've always been someone who just goes their own lane. So I I will say that the early tonight is not too different. And I just a little bit less responsible, maybe. Michael Hingson ** 03:21 So how long were you in Zimbabwe? Chenai Kadungure ** 03:24 all the way till I was 18. Our economy then crashed. We basically had to do what you know, I guess people call it like economic migrants, we all had to sort of study in South Africa and overseas. So I went to South Africa for my undergrad and my first master's. And then after about five years of working I went to North Carolina for a second master's and ended up in Toronto. So I've I've traveled around. Michael Hingson ** 03:56 So when you were in North Carolina, did you drink sweet tea? Chenai Kadungure ** 04:02 Oh, yes. Lori has diabetes in a cup. But I did enjoy it. I mean, we were colonized by the British. So tea is very common for us back home to Well, Michael Hingson ** 04:17 I like tea. I like hot tea. It's people who listen to this regularly or who have read my book thunder dog. No, I love PG Tips tea and it's so it's a hot, vibrant British tea. I've never been a great fan of sweet tea just because it is too sweet for me. But I appreciate it. And I'm glad people like it. I was actually talking with someone from North Carolina yesterday and they were asking me if I liked sweet tea and I said the same thing that I'm not a great sweetie fan. But on the other hand, I love sausage biscuits. So that's that's another one from South from North Carolina. But Chenai Kadungure ** 04:55 we do what we can hmm I still missed the Bojangles though I think Yeah, that is my favorite Carolinian product. Michael Hingson ** 05:06 Well, there you go, Well, you know, it's a fun area. And so what? What took you? Well, let me start this way when you went in got your Bachelor's in your first master's, what were they in? Chenai Kadungure ** 05:18 Okay, my undergrad was media sociology and Gender Studies. And then I got more and more into the sociology side of thing wanting to understand how society works, why society looks the way it is. So my first master's was a master of philosophy and diversity studies. So before diversity studies was hip, I always tell people I cared about diversity. There Michael Hingson ** 05:43 you go. So that was your first master's and what was your second one when you went to North Carolina? Chenai Kadungure ** 05:48 I went to North Carolina on a Rotary Peace Fellowship. It was one of those will be World Peace fellowships. I'm a Rotarian. Well, now I'm a Rotarian. But back then you can't do the fellowship if you're a rotary. So I went to the Duke UNC Peace Center, and we always say peace is possible. If a Tar Heel and a Dookie can get along. Oh, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 06:14 Well, so there, there are three of courses NC, UNC and Duke. And that's a combination to try to make peace between. Chenai Kadungure ** 06:25 Yes, I think the basketball is usually where it all comes to a head. But yes, there are days where it's not safe to wear a certain type of blue. Michael Hingson ** 06:36 Yeah, well, I understand. And basketball is the thing. I was there once, just when I think it was. And UNC and NC State were playing to see who was going to I think have top bragging rights in the conference. Or maybe well, no, it wasn't duke it was UNC and NC State. And all TV was preempted by the game. Needless to say, there's no no surprise. Oh, Chenai Kadungure ** 07:09 yes. Oh, yes. People live, eat and breathe. And I'd say that's the equivalent of I guess a hockey here. Michael Hingson ** 07:13 Yeah. Yeah, you've got hockey up there. You've got the Maple Leafs, and, and, and all of that well, so What took you from North Carolina, then to Toronto? So Chenai Kadungure ** 07:26 I've always had a cousin, who's here, and she always used to say, come to Canada. And I always used to tell her. Sorry, it's too cold. And then, as the years went by, I started hearing some good things about Canada. And I thought, you know, it's worth a shot. Since I was already in North America. I figured this is the next step. So I came here, and I just, I really love being here. I enjoy being here. Michael Hingson ** 07:51 How long have you been there? Chenai Kadungure ** 07:54 So since 2018, I did a one year stint in Malawi with care Canada, and then came back. So give or take, I guess its own five going on six years. Wow. Well, Michael Hingson ** 08:06 you moved around some needless to say, Chenai Kadungure ** 08:10 I am a traveler. I didn't I think that's my, that's my, if people have arrest language minus travel, there's something about being somewhere else that just, it helps me. Michael Hingson ** 08:22 Do you get bored being in one place too long, or you just love to travel and experience new things and still like to have a home base? Chenai Kadungure ** 08:30 I think it's both and I I love encountering a new culture and, you know, trying new foods and, you know, being able to experience a place for myself, because I think we all have a stereotypical idea of what parts of the world look and feel like. But I think when you're there something about it helps you appreciate the otherness, but also appreciate where you're from, or where you live. And so I feel like there's something that always brings me back to myself when I do that. But also, it's the I think it's the cultures right? Work. I think work life balance culture. Around the world is something I enjoy. I feel like we are high on urgency culture here. So sometimes I need to physically be in a different place to get myself to rest. Michael Hingson ** 09:18 Do you think it's different up there than it is here in the US? Chenai Kadungure ** 09:23 I feel like we I think we might be balanced. I hear people say some things that are similar like it I feel like people kind of brag on how productive and how busy they are. In North America, where is it? Mita I'm originally Zimbabwe. And I think that the work life balance is a little bit different than even when I spent some time in the Caribbean same kind of thing. Michael Hingson ** 09:46 Yeah, well, and you said the urgency culture and that it just makes sense. I think that we are so locked into having everything instant urgency and so on and we've got to do it. Now, it is it is unfortunate because it doesn't necessarily go that way. We haven't really learned to pace. And we want a lot of things now that we don't have any control over, and then we get mad when we don't get them. Chenai Kadungure ** 10:14 This is true. But it was like, it's it's also about the external expectation of us, right. But I think if the most productive thing we could do in a day was to rest or to, you know, lose the desire for control or things like that, I think we had a different metric, we might do things differently, but I think the dominant culture is you need to be as busy as everyone else. Michael Hingson ** 10:38 Yeah, that seems to be the way it goes. And, and the, the flow of activity these days. And the problem is we lose some perspectives about that, which is, which is a little unfortunate. But what do you do? So what have you been doing since you got your master's degrees? I'm assuming that while you were doing that you were pretty much busy full time with being a student? Chenai Kadungure ** 11:03 Absolutely. I think I'm working on trying to be the less busy person, I always have so many things going on volunteering here, boards here full time job, really just carrying too many things. But I would say there's always been a sort of like nonprofit and social and community service side to everything, I've ended up doing it. I think, just by design I, I was an interrupter in high school. So they you know, interact, they talk about service above self, and I just stuck. And I think that's, that's what it's always been for me. Michael Hingson ** 11:45 So what do you do now that you're out of school? What's your job? And all that sort of stuff? Chenai Kadungure ** 11:51 Oh, yes. So I am the Executive Director of the black physicians association of Ontario. So we have, I would say we are both in the supporting medical education for black medical learners and the our members, which are existing physicians, residents and existing physicians, but also a large part of that is trying to improve health outcomes for black community on in Ontario. So we have our work cut out there. But I think so many of our members are instrumental to things that are happening now. So as an example, they just announced that breast cancer screening can start as early as 40. In Canada, it used to only be from about 50 onwards, but we started seeing that, okay, there's a lot of like, younger people who are getting it. And so that kind of advocacy comes from work, like from groups like ours, it's pretty exciting. Michael Hingson ** 12:46 Yeah. Now you don't have you're not an MD at all. And you're not going that, that career path, Chenai Kadungure ** 12:55 I gather? Yes, yes, no, I, but I've always said, I've always felt like I was a healer. I'm just too squeamish to have ever gone the medical route. My mother was a nurse. So I've always been closely connected to medicine. In some ways. It's. So Michael Hingson ** 13:11 what do you do as a CEO of the association? Chenai Kadungure ** 13:16 Oh, what do I not do is the question. I think when nonprofits are smaller, you end up being an everything person. So it's like, you know, you're doing business development, you're doing operations, you're talking to accountants, you're on the recruiting side, you're working with volunteers, you're in the meetings with the universities about different things. So, you know, we're all over I think, when we think of public health in Canada, especially for black community, I'm in most of those spaces. Michael Hingson ** 13:47 Why why is there a need for a black physicians Association, as opposed to just a physician's Association? And I'm not saying there isn't I just curious to hear your answer. Chenai Kadungure ** 13:58 Yes. I mean, I think there is when we're looking at equity, there is always a I think the default for most people in most places is to be mainstream, ie, you know, one stroke for everyone. But I think there's something about listening to specific needs of different communities, and making sure they get the support they need. And in that different way, right, I think it's sometimes very hard to be able to be all things to all people and so I feel like sometimes when you have these, like, more identity group, identity related group or like, you know, oppression related groups and things like that, I think there's a bit more weight to the voice, right and people will always be able to coalesce and meet in the general association. So here we have Canadian Medical Association and Ontario Medical Association and everyone's in those and then you have more sort of like niche ones for for specific groups, and also for US and Canada. Blackfish physicians only make up 2.7% of the physician population. So I want you to imagine that in a room, right, it's so pieces people feel very lonely in their craft and sometimes just need to get together and know that there's someone who understands their challenges. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 15:15 Do you think the association can improve those numbers and get more black physicians into the to the workforce? Chenai Kadungure ** 15:23 We are trying, I won't lie right now we have things like we're doing studies on like the, you know, physician suicides and things like that, because there's a lot of physician burnout, I'd say just around the pandemic and onwards. So we are trying to solve a lot of problems in one go. But I think the mental the mental health and support that comes from networks like ours, has been proven to increase the number of black medical learners. To give you an example, Timur at School of Medicine, which is, I'd say, one of the most popular Ontario med schools, has sent me that some of the people, they reported a tenfold increase in black, sort of like medical learners signups because of different support programs we put into place there. So I think it's not an overnight process, but just being able to say, have we thought about, maybe we need to do this, this is how we can include more people. So I think there's a lot of work that still needs to be done for most racialized physicians, I'd say. Yeah. Do you? Michael Hingson ** 16:25 Do you find that there is a difference in percentage of say, black physician suicides as opposed to physician suicides? Overall? Is, is? Is there that kind of disparity in the numbers, do you think? Chenai Kadungure ** 16:41 I think it's, Canada has the problem that we don't collect a lot of data on these things. So community ends up having to be the ones collecting the data. We are going a lot on US data for a lot of these things for now. But we do hear similar kind of themes around the challenges people face. But I know that since there's still a lot of stigma around mental health in black community, that in itself, I think would make a difference, right to the level of access, we'll see if people actually taking those supports. So I think that's a big thing. The other thing is people being able to actually see that there is a problem, I think, is you know, compassion fatigue, right. And in the healthcare sector in general, there's a sometimes a challenge with boundaries, like how do you know if you've reached your limit? How do you know that you now need to be a patient and not a doctor? Right? And we know that that's a challenge. So I think we'll have to look back and have this conversation five years from now. And I'll have the steps. Michael Hingson ** 17:38 It will be interesting to discover in hearing what what you discover, but it will, it will be interesting to see. And my my immediate thought is that any group that feels marginalized definitely has challenges over other groups. I mean, we find it in I don't know about suicides, and so on. But we do find marginalized marginalization with disabilities. And there are a lot of things that come up. And, you know, even diversity doesn't include disabilities, typically speaking, they talk about race and gender and sexual orientation and other things and don't include disabilities. Don't Chenai Kadungure ** 18:15 get me started on that, honestly, because I think it ends up being an I don't know what it is, because every time I'm sort of, I mean, I have an invisible disability. But I always feel like for people with visible disabilities, it's like, I feel like it's 10 times harder, just to get that like the foot in the door or whatever, because people are trying to spend as little as possible. I mean, this is I'm speaking broadly, and generally, people are trying to spend as little as possible to support staff in general, right. So if you're trying to work and you need accommodations, I just don't see that kind of willingness, you know, across the board, even in sectors like ours that are supposed to be more compassionate. I see a lot of the same problems, because I mean, I also serve on the middle center board. So we hear a lot about like, okay, these are some of the challenges that residents are facing, and I'm telling you, it's, it's unreal, we haven't even scratched the surface of the lack of support that's still required in in disability on us. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson ** 19:19 and and why do you think that is? Chenai Kadungure ** 19:23 I think it's because it's a mixture, part of it is there's always the excuse of, oh, it's a minority. It's a small group of people. So, you know, as far as the overall impact won't be that huge, right, number one. Number two is I think we just have an empathy problem in general in the world. If it's not something happening in my house or in my body, it doesn't matter. And I think that's huge, right? For a lot of the people I work with, even when we're doing things like medicine, a lot of it is always I have a relative there's there's a connection point and yet it's like empathy in general. Just It doesn't really seem to be there. I think with me, it's a mixture of faith and culture, right Africans are communitarians. We even have the idea of goon to I'm not well, unless you're well. And so part of that is like, you know, trying to be a bit more equitable in our approaches, right? Michael Hingson ** 20:17 Well, the the other thing I would say is that when people talk about being a small minority, the statistics show that, in general, roughly about 25% of people have some sort of disability. So it's not really that small of a minority, where it does get to be a problem is that the minority is made up of a number of different kinds of, of ways that the so called Disability manifests. Chris, what I try to do is to level the playing field. And what I tell people is, the reality is everyone in the world has a disability. And for most of you, it's light dependency, you don't do well, if the lights suddenly go out, you have to find a way to get new light in order to be able to function. But the light bulb was invented, to give you light on demand. And so mostly, your disability is covered up, but it doesn't change the fact that it still exists, because it does exist. And I've seen it happen all too many times. But I think also we have such a fear, oh, I could, I could end up tomorrow in a wheelchair, or I could end up being blind or whatever. And so fear, and the fact that we don't include disabilities in the conversation just doesn't seem to help a lot. Chenai Kadungure ** 21:38 I completely agree. And also one that's a little bit more insidious, is if the community doesn't have money, I feel like there's a way of putting pressure on certain topics, and you kind of say, Okay, we're not going to be able to put our dollars into X organization unless they they are seem to care about this issue. And I think there's, there's some of that, like, what's in it for me, money wise, people won't really understand that, because I do feel now that, you know, there's bit there's been performative inclusion, you know, and it's, it's about being able to get money, or being able to receive the kind of quality perception capital or something, right. For the larger organizations, when their funding issues. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 22:25 Yeah, there are a lot of different factors that go into it. You said you have an invisible disability, and what is that? Chenai Kadungure ** 22:30 Oh, I just have AD ADHD? Uh, huh. Michael Hingson ** 22:35 How has, how has that affected you in terms of going through and getting an education and what you do now on the job and so on? Well, Chenai Kadungure ** 22:44 I think it's, I mean, I came from a time in a culture where we don't, we don't really test for these things. And we were the stigma is still really strong. I think people don't want to think that there are any challenges and having any kind of, you know, like, any kind of like, what I say like, it's dyslexia, ADHD, all these things, I don't think we even like really get the assessments, if I remember, as you know, for us growing growing up, things may have changed in that in that realm now, but I think you just kind of get labeled as Oh, you know, you're dumb, or you're not great in school, or, you know, you just kind of get put in a corner. And when I remember my earliest experiences of like, teachers just kind of acting like, like, yeah, like I say, I'm a black sheep or something. So I recall several, like almost years in my primary schooling of just kind of sitting outside of the classroom for days on end, because you get kicked out for anything. Oh, you know, your book looks messy. Get out. Oh, you know, you're being disruptive get out. And then you spend like most of the afternoon outside. So yeah, I didn't, I didn't really think that that would be so much of this. There's a barrier outside of me just being dumb or something like that, right? Because we didn't have the nuance, or the language for it. So I only more recently found out that's what it was. But I always knew there was something there. I was like, things that look a little bit easier for people. I don't know why I struggle with this. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 24:15 I'm amazed at the number of people I've talked with on this podcast, unstoppable mindset, who talk about the fact that they have some level of autism, but they didn't even know it, and didn't get it diagnosed until they were in their 30s. Yeah, Chenai Kadungure ** 24:33 pretty much you get to a point where you're just like, I want to figure out what it is. Because for me, I think when I'm most burnt out, that's when you know, it's just even more apparent. So the cope when the coping mechanisms stopped working. You're like I did, like something else is going on here. Michael Hingson ** 24:49 Yeah, yeah, we we. I think we're learning I think that that there's growth, but it certainly isn't at the level Hold on to the level that it really needs to be and disabilities are still the minority that are least talked about, or at least involved at least included. And it shouldn't be that way. But it is. Chenai Kadungure ** 25:16 I absolutely agree. I mean, even when we're doing research, right, and we're looking at past even focus groups, and we're breaking down categories, the number of times I've sent documents back and be like you, you've left out to so many times, it seems like you've left out there. It's, it is, it's unreal. And so I think there's a level of resilience that is in the disability community that, yeah, I can't even begin to imagine because it's, yeah, it's like being invisible. Literally, it is. Michael Hingson ** 25:53 And being ignored is what it's about. To a large degree. One thing I know that you talk about, from time to time, is the whole concept of an authenticity. Why does that matter to you? Chenai Kadungure ** 26:09 I feel like it's a trait of, I think it's about integrity. But I also think personal integrity is so much harder. Like there, I think there's a general sort of understood idea of like, oh, you know, I did what I said I'm going to do, but the older I've gotten, the more I realized that so few people get to just fully be themselves, whether it's in their jobs, in their marriages, in their faith, and like, it's just such a huge thing to be yourself and 100% yourself. And so for me, I think that's something like I gave it a word. And I decided to call it authenticity. And, and honestly, I think if I look at all the leaders I've respected and like the most, that's what it is. And I think it's rare. I think that as a trait is rare. Michael Hingson ** 26:58 I use that. Chenai Kadungure ** 27:01 Well, some of it is what we discussed before, I think there there is a from when you're born, you have people telling you, you have to be a certain way, you have to think a certain way you have to study certain things, you have to do certain jobs, there's always something with it, society culture, weighing in on how you need to show up in the world. And I think more often than not, we want as much as we care about personal control, we really are about controlling other people, too. That's, that's what I can really put it to because there's a lot of performance that happens. And it's like, sometimes it's performance for survival. But a lot of times, I think it's also just performance for approval, like if I show up in this way, then I'll be accepted. Michael Hingson ** 27:49 And it doesn't really matter, what you may truly feel is that people want you to be a certain way. So you become inauthentic, if you will. Chenai Kadungure ** 28:02 Pretty much like oh, it just becomes your life, you know, the things you do ended up becoming like your habits or you know, it's that's what you've invested in. And so that's where you are. And I think there a lot of people who get, you know, 3040 years down the line, they realize they lived other people's lives. And I that's the thing I wouldn't want. I don't want to look back at my life 30 years from now and feel like I live someone else's life. Do Michael Hingson ** 28:26 you think there's any kind of a trend on the part of people to want to be more authentic and to to buck that? That concept? Chenai Kadungure ** 28:39 Definitely, I think when we talk about leaders who do things differently, or even what I see with I guess, Gen Z and sort of like the generations coming over, I feel like their BS radar is a lot stronger. Or they're, maybe it's because there are a lot, I feel like they're a lot more judgmental, because they kind of expect, they expect you to understand that they're human. Whereas I think some of the generations before we were like, You need to be a productive person, you need to, you know, show up in this way. And you know, whether it's your church or you know, there are a lot of different places that had expectations of you. I think a lot of the younger people now are just very, you know, they're not ashamed of showing up as they are, you know, I'm saying, Today I'm in my sweats, because that's what I feel like. And you know, I should show up that way, you know, so I feel like with time, we've opened up a bit. A simple example I could think of, as I know, in the tech sector, there isn't an expectation that people come buttoned up in suits and things like that, right. And yet, there's a time where I think that might have been the most offensive thing a person did when they walked into a meeting. He wore sneakers to an interview, you know, so I feel like those are some of the ways we're slowly now becoming less, I guess judgy about how other people should behave. Michael Hingson ** 30:01 An interesting paradox. I know that when I started selling, and I took sales courses, and I met with any number of people, they would give examples like, so on the East Coast or in a number of places, and important meetings, you show up if you're a man in a suit and tie or women wear dresses and skirts and all that, but I'm going to use men just for a moment, a suit and tie and, and so on. But you don't do that if you go to Texas, you can wear jeans and cowboy boots, and it's totally acceptable. And that was something I heard 30 years ago and 40 years ago, yet, we, we still mostly really do have that that trend, oh, you have to look or do things in a particular way. And I think that also contributes to the whole disability discussion a little bit, because the bottom line is, I don't, although I want to do and have the right to have equal access to doing the things that you do and, and having that opportunity, I won't use the same tools or do them in exactly the same way. And we get too locked in again, to one certain way of doing things and it hasn't totally changed at all. Chenai Kadungure ** 31:16 That's actually very true, I think. Yeah, even when we think of like some of the ideas in business, right? We have now you scale and all of that has its own culture. And it's like it's either you do this or you fail. So it's Yeah, I think yeah, there is always still a bit of a bit more bravery required to, to fully show up as yourself. Michael Hingson ** 31:38 So what do doctors do in Canada? And they all feel they have to be dressed up and all that? Or can they just hide under scrubs and a long white coat? Chenai Kadungure ** 31:48 Well, interestingly enough, I think our membership is 80% family physicians. And so I feel like that's one sort of track where people can still sort of like, you know, have the beat of their own drum. So you will have people where, you know, to give you an example, like we've got this one PDF, PDF constructor, I really enjoy her content, and she has like she had pink hair the other day. And I think it's because she's working in peds, maybe this, this doesn't, maybe she went with her pink hair somewhere else. They might not be as much of an openness. But I do find that where there's a little bit more flexibility. I think in general, there are some professions that stick more to the what I call the monochrome The monochrome or the gray or the you know that they're not really about being colorful, whether it's actually wearing color or being open to too much difference. So I must say, I think because our doctors have had to sort of like be in settings where they can't be themselves, I think when they come to our events and things like that they embrace being fully themselves. So I probably haven't seen them in their buttoned up nests as much. And you'll get certain specialties where I think the buttoned up list is just the way they are. But the minute they're off duty, there's someone else. So there are people living like double lives I feel as well right in certain professions. So for me, those are the things that are interesting that I think 1015 years down the line, it's going to look different. I think we're gonna have people be more authentic most of the time. Oh, you're Peter Michael Hingson ** 33:23 pink hair, she must be a fan of Harry Potter and, and tungsten or something like that. Hmm. Chenai Kadungure ** 33:30 Probably working with children, I'm sure you know, there's a lot of Harry Potter. And Michael Hingson ** 33:38 so how does authenticity, change the world or, or create hope? Do you think? Chenai Kadungure ** 33:46 I honestly think that there is so much labor and performance. So if I think of the way I get to show up as a black woman in so many spaces, because I'm working in my community and things like that, there's a little bit less translation. So you know, people talk about code switching, and having to be someone else at work and someone else with their friends. I feel I'm I'm really lucky in the way I get to show up as myself. I often joke that I'm in formal that when we think of how formalized workplaces are. And yet so many people are performing, right, the minute they leave the office, they feel they can literally lift their head down and be themselves. My hope is that we can get to a point where when we are at work, we can be ourselves in that same way. And I think we saw it even during the pandemic, right a lot of people got to where their trackpants while on calls and they were so relieved that they could now be comfortable in the workplace. And that's that's how I see it if you have to be uncomfortable to do something that I think is a challenge. We I think we've always put it as propriety and I feel like that, that I theory of propriety has always meant that they, you know, there's a lot of discomfort that you have to just accept. And knowing that that doesn't have to be, I think, makes us a little bit more open minded. And the more open minded we are, the more empathetic we can be. I do think we should evolve past thinking that if I haven't experienced that, I can't relate to it. Like, I don't need to go hungry for a night to understand that hunger is not great. You know what I mean? I don't need to be homeless, to know that stressing about where to sleep is a problem. And so by the same token, for me exactly what we're talking about, like, I shouldn't be surprised when I get into an elevator. And this actually like, sounds I'm like, I should expect every elevator to have those sounds, because it means when they built this building, they thought about everyone. Yeah. 35:55 Well, and I think that there is a lot to be said for empathy, empathy. And that's kind of what you're talking about I, I oftentimes encounter people who tell me how horrible it is to be blind and what it's like to be blind. And I do say to them, the biggest problem is you've never tried it. Because we don't internalize it, we make assumptions. Rather than understanding and I agree with you, one doesn't need to be homeless to understand it. And one doesn't necessarily need to be hungry to understand it. But it does require us thinking about it. Hmm, Chenai Kadungure ** 36:32 definitely like, yeah, if I, I guess, like, what you with what you're saying, if it is something I have no idea about, I think also just a level of curiosity. Right? Because that made me think that's also what's missing. Like, if I don't understand why am I not curious about it? Why am I not Yeah, trying to figure something out, because it's not, it's not something new, like what we see. But in every phase of your life, you're probably going to be encountering things. And so the small example I could give us, I remember once going to $1 store. And I saw an old lady there. And she was sort of like struggling with the, you know, like with her cart, her cart was really, really full, and the escalator and the elevator and the place was not working. And so I was like, this, this plate like this, in this building the escalator the elevator, wasn't working for two years. And I said to you know, I said to one of my friends, I can't believe it's been almost two years, and they haven't fixed this. And of course, this is $1. I'm in the middle of Toronto downtown, like you are in a Dollarama. This person is probably even economically not in the best position. And you want to give them an extra struggle, of just being able to access the space. And yeah, for me, it really just blew my mind. I really thought about that. And I was like, wow, two years. Like for two years, they've been okay with the fact that like, oh, people can ask access. There's only Dollarama in like three square kilometers, by the way. So yeah, it's yeah, the mind still boggles. I think that's the thing. I wish we could have empathy injections. Michael Hingson ** 38:08 We need something Yeah, it is, it's important that we be more curious. And that's again, something that we don't necessarily see a lot. I've talked a few times about people and the podcast where we we choose not to be curious, or we're taught not to be curious. You know, we talked about the disability issue a while ago. And oftentimes, little kids would want to come over and talk to me or my wife, who was in a wheelchair her whole life she just passed last November. But she, you know, we would we would hear kids or see kids, I want to go ask this lady something or I want to go pet that dog because I have a guide dog and all that. And, and the parents would say, oh, no, you don't want to do that you might offend them. And this and that. The other stuff. And the bottom line is, we discourage curiosity. And the kids are naturally curious. And most of us understand that it would love nothing better than to answer any questions. And sometimes I've actually, when I heard those discussions, I'll go over and I'll say, Wait a minute. You want to pet the dog? I'll take the harness off and explain why I'm taking the harness off. Now you can pet the dog. Do you know what the dog does? Or I've seen my wife Karen go over and say, What do you want to know about the wheelchair? And the parents are being embarrassed? But they don't understand that it's a wonderful teaching moment. Absolutely. Chenai Kadungure ** 39:33 And if anything, I think children actually understand empathy. At such a higher rate than a lot of us. I think a lot of us get a bit more cynical when we get older. Because when I think of a lot of the conversations we've had about identity, I feel like because children don't expect people to show up in a certain way. They just accept everyone. So what did they call it like the cats During thereafter, word is openness. But I think because children are imaginative for them, it's, I don't see why, why they can be different kinds of people, and just have it that way. So yeah, I really had to think about that. And even this thing of like something as small as our friendship circles, you know exactly what you're saying, you're like, do we just stick with people who are exactly like us, and we never, and we close our world even more, Michael Hingson ** 40:26 all too often. Which is really part of the issue. And again, as I said, with children, we're teaching them not to be curious. We're teaching them not to be open, rather than encouraging that curiosity and that openness, which would be a much more wonderful thing and make the world a much better place. Because if they grew up curious, then they would continue to explore. Richard Fineman, who was one of the very famous physicists from the 50s and 60s and well in the 40s. And one of the greatest physicists of the 20th century wrote a book entitled, surely you're joking Mr. Fineman adventures of a curious fellow and even in the first chapter, he says his father pushed him always to be curious. And he grew up, continuing to have a curious mind, which I think is extremely important for all of us to do. Chenai Kadungure ** 41:23 Wow. I love that. Because I think also, it's lately, I've been calling it curiosity over conviction. I think part of what leads us into little boxes is some of these things that are convictions that really should have just been curiosities, right that, like, is this thing really, as important? Will this really change the world or shatter the world? And if we put some of those things where they should be placed, right, it's like, okay, this is just a preference. It's not like something really huge. I feel like, yeah, we'd explore more we'd, we'd be more curious. And I think even when we look at the nature of how they do dialogues, it's always exactly that. It's saying, if you can hold space, and say, my view is my own, but it's not the only view. And just accepting that small thing. It's like, it's amazing how all of a sudden problems became opportunities and possibilities. So I do think there's, there's some power there. Michael Hingson ** 42:24 Yeah. Well, and we all have our own views. But do you think it's also appropriate for us to have a mindset that says, Okay, I've got my own view. I like my idea. But you know, what, I'm willing to listen. And if somebody says something that really makes me change, that's okay. Chenai Kadungure ** 42:42 Absolutely. To me, that's the curiosity, right? If I am saying anything that isn't this answer is wrong. I'm also preventing, I guess, cross learning to happen, right. And so I think that that whole, really thinking about, there's a reason how this, like why this view got built in the first place more often than not, yeah, a mixture of it might have been things we were told, right? So we may not have given it a lot of thought, and we talked to someone else. And then we're like, Huh, that's interesting, and you think of something in a different way. But a large part of it as well is our what we call frame of reference, right? If my frame of references, these 123 experiences are the most important, and it shapes my opinion about this thing. If I talk to someone or the different one, I get to just like, encounter a whole new world, it goes back to what I was saying about why I enjoy traveling, right? That just seeing something done differently, or seeing the same thing I worry about, be perceived as something happy. I'll just give you an example. There's a colleague of mine, and she and she's always posting on LinkedIn about ADHD is her superpower. And I always thought like, Hmm, interesting, interesting, interesting. But now it's like it gave me it gave me a different view of like, oh, we actually overthink some of these things and be like, Oh, this is something that actually makes you different and makes you operate in the world in a different way. And that's a good thing. And that is changing the language of it. And so for me, I think there's that that oh, we can we can open our world so much if we you know, Judge, listen, put things in boxes. Michael Hingson ** 44:22 People often have have asked me over the years, where you're blind, do you want to see or don't you want to see? And, you know, I understand eyesight well enough to recognize that. It offers some things but as I tell people, full probably because it'd be a new adventure. But if I don't, it's not going to be the end of the world. Because in reality, eyesight just offers us another lane on the road to travel that we all do. And we've got to stop thinking that One way is less than another way. That's I think the biggest issue is we've made value judgments as to what is and is not. Which is why I always have. And I've learned this, especially during this podcast to not like the term visually impaired because visually impaired first of all, visually, I'm not different, because I'm blind. But this is the way that professionals have treated it for so long. But the other part is impaired. And that is, I shouldn't be compared to someone based on how much vision I have. If you're a deaf person, your community doesn't like hearing impaired, and you're liable to be shot. If you call a deaf person hearing impaired. It's deaf or hard of hearing. And likewise, with blind people that should be blind or low vision, forget the concept of impaired, it puts a stigma on us. And again, I think that goes back to what we were talking about earlier that helps the bad mistakes that we face. Chenai Kadungure ** 46:02 Absolutely. And I think also with what you were talking about earlier, honestly, it's also that I feel like you have a different kind of site, there's more of an insight that comes in understanding something using a different sense, because you want to be able to say, What's it like to taste this thing? Or do you know, like, I feel like we don't really value? How do I say the exploring of the world in that way? Because there's a whole world that you encounter that I I still need to understand, because I rely so much on this. So I think it's also thinking of that in a different way. Exactly like what you're saying it's not. I think it's that lack of curiosity again. Describe it. So lack of curiosity. 46:47 Yeah, well, and it is something that we hopefully over time will learn to counteract, and that we will help children and adults be more curious. And there's nothing or shouldn't be anything wrong with being curious. Chenai Kadungure ** 47:07 Absolutely, so So I think if we so if we do a book together, it's no longer gonna be The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. But we're going to, we're going to create more curious cases. Michael Hingson ** 47:19 Nothing wrong with that. So, you know, something I've talked with a couple of people on unstoppable mindset about is imposter syndrome. And I understand it a little bit. And I talked to one person who realized he had it and was able to deal with it. But how does impostor syndrome shrink or affect authenticity? Because I would, I would think that, since the whole concept of impostor syndrome is becoming more of a topic of discussion, that it affects other things. And one of the things that seems to me that is worth discussing is how it affects authenticity. Absolutely. Chenai Kadungure ** 48:05 I, I think impostor syndrome has to do with that fear of not showing up the way other people want you to show up. So it still gives that power to the external, right. And yet, ironically, I think that there was always that same thing that they say, when your internal validation is low. That is when you want the external validation. And so I think when we're in a space of imposter syndrome, we feel we don't measure up for other people. And that somehow impacts the way we view even ourselves. And yet, honestly, if we just were humble enough to even get over ourselves, and just say, I'm in this space, and I've been given room to speak or do this thing. It's more the happiness of being there should allow you to actually be even more, how do I say, like, more vocal or more like, use the space that's actually been given to you. It's literally giving someone a platform and saying here, your voice is going to mean something in this room, and then you decide to actually, you know, quiet in yourself, and you say, I'd rather not speak because I don't feel like I should be here. And so I think it's a goes back to what you're saying of a value judgment. We use some strange lens to decide that we're an impostor. We're literally pretending to be in this place we shouldn't be in. And yet, I think exactly like what you said most people have gone through stages in their life when they felt that and I think they say a lot of women have it because again, you know, the some of the societal things we're still working out. were made to feel like you should actually, you know, be grateful that you're here so you feel like you don't measure up. But yeah, that's it's hard to be authentic then because you don't even have a good sense of who you are. At that point. Right at that stage. You're not seeing what value you're bringing to the table or to the room. But if you were to hold on to those nuggets that you could bring to that place, see it as an opportunity to have an opportunity to say something or do something or make an impact. If we see that as an opportunity or not, oh my gosh, I'm just going to fail so badly. When I fail so badly and just ruined everything. And yet it's like no, like, do the positive. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 50:24 Do you think that most people deep down, really know what they feel, but they're just afraid to deal with it. And so things like impostor syndrome or on authentic or inauthentic, things take over, but that they really know. And that that adds to the stress. Chenai Kadungure ** 50:42 So it's like layers of so the the barriers other people can put in front of you, but then they're the worst ones that you then put in front of yourselves. And so I definitely think that if we could like, you know, my one of my, whenever when I had burnout, I remember that someone has like, we all have malware. We all have certain malware and but if we can actually do a virus scan and look and see what are the lies that are like that are that I am carrying in my life? And how are they holding me back? And actually having a conversation with them? Not so much ignoring them? Because I do think we like to go with the distraction, but having a conversation with them, you actually understand that like you'd never say this to someone else. So why would you say to yourself, all right. Yeah, we're our harshest critics. Michael Hingson ** 51:31 Well, I reversed that and say, I really think that we need to get away from that negativity. And we should say, we're our best teachers. And we really need to do that. But that's, of course, the problem is, and I did it for many years, I'm my own worst critic, because I would listen to my presentations, the public speeches that I give, and learn from them. But I always said, I do it. Because I'm my own worst critic. Well, what I really realized was, I'm my own best teacher. And if when I started doing that, it, it changed the whole dynamic of even listening to the recordings that I make. Chenai Kadungure ** 52:11 Oh, that's prophecy. I love that because that is that then is even the failing forward. So even if you did something and thought, that wasn't great. The next day, you've already got some experience to learn from where's this someone who's not even getting the experience because they're so afraid to even fail? That's like, the worst place to be? Michael Hingson ** 52:30 Well, and failure. Again, I agree with some of the motivational people who say failure is really just an opportunity. And it is it's an opportunity to learn and grow. And we should never beat ourselves up over failing, but rather ask ourselves, all right, what happened? That didn't go just quite the way I wanted? How do we deal with it? Chenai Kadungure ** 52:50 Absolutely. And I also love I think it was a Sara Blakely, the the lady who founded Spanx at her dad every time she got home, used to ask her, How did you fail today, and that was something they would celebrate, finding out about something they cared about. And I, I always loved that idea of like, again, there's a language we use. It is I make judgment calls about like, you did this thing, you got the F I mean, everyone knows what that red F feels like, right? And yet, it's exactly that it's like, oh, an opportunity to to learn something or whatever, that will be a different way of viewing the situation. Michael Hingson ** 53:25 Yeah. And I think turning things into a more positive thing, rather than beating yourself up, like using expressions such as I, my own best teacher, changed the whole dynamic in an incredible and swift way. Which is, I think, extremely important for us to do, what you know, with you dealing with physicians and so on, and of course, in our world today, we've gone through a lot of different crises. What do you think that people need the most in a recession or depression? And why do you think it? Well, I Chenai Kadungure ** 54:01 think it is they do need hope. Right? Hope is Hope is an element, but I think it's such a critical thing. But then I also think that it is what was it like? Somewhat like a personal kindness? And I think we need to reinforce how do I say reinforce, I forgot I forgot where my forgot group I think was depression. Michael Hingson ** 54:29 Recession. Yes. Chenai Kadungure ** 54:31 That's what it's like. I think there is so much depression in a well actually we can call it might be a depression, they might call it a depression 10 years from now, I don't know. But I think it's implied in the name right? That it's everything around you is going to want to pull you down. And we need to understand things that help us go in that in that opposite direction. And so for me, I think it's sometimes it's small things like sometimes I'll filter out filter out news So I get actually give myself a news fast. And sometimes I'll even do something if it's behaviorally, complaints fast, I literally, sometimes will say, I'm not going to complain about something for X number of days. Because I remember there was research that said, your brain chemistry even changes when you like, complain consistently. And so exactly what you said, the power, life and death in the power of the tongue. There's, there's so much there, but what we say to a situation. And so I think we always see the soft stuff, the frilly stuff as the things that, you know, don't matter. But that's what keeps societies going. I mean, I'm sure when FDR was weakening people, you know, in 1929, there's something there, there was a hope that he was bringing that gave him what I don't know how many terms ended up having three or four. Michael Hingson ** 55:49 Or, well, he died during the fourth, but yeah, for hope, yeah. And people understood it, I collect old radio shows as a hobby. And I contrast how the media is today, and how programs are and the people as opposed to the way they were in the 30s and 40s, around the war, and all that, and there was a lot more rallying and supportiveness than there is today. And we just look for ways to criticize and can tear everything down, and we don't look and understand. And again, it all goes back also to curiosity and not wanting to be confused with the facts. Chenai Kadungure ** 56:38 And I think also share, shared, trying to experience the shared experience together. If I, if I remember that time when we were so we had one of the longest lock downs, right? One of the longest long downs in the world. But one of the things that was the first time I saw positive messages on the news. So I wondered about that, you know, this whole thing where we always say we want hard news. And we riddle people with these, like things that are just going to make them feel afraid, feel angry, feel like all kinds of negative emotions. And yet there was an intentionality to positivity then because they're like, people are in their homes, and we really need to care about their mental health and things like that. And I'm like, why should that be a lockdown thing? Why can that be a way of being? Why can we have that kind of balance? I mean, if you think about it back then exactly like you said, the radio show is some thread that connected millions of people back then, now we just have our own little echo chambers all over, we're just even more disconnected and isolated than ever before. In the UK, they have a ministry of loneliness. That is how bad it is where you literally have a ministry dedicated to the problem of loneliness. So I think that there is hope unites people in a way that fear and anger and hate and all these things, you know, it's an opposition to that, right. So yeah, I think let's do that. Let's have a new currency of hope. mi ** 58:04 There you go. Well, here's a question. What compensation is the world not having, but we should be having? Chenai Kadungure ** 58:14 There's so many. Michael Hingson ** 58:17 Yes, there are. Chenai Kadungure ** 58:18 There's so many. I think the one is on honesty around nuance. We've touched on it a few times today. But this being of zero sum, we have such a zero sum language nowadays that just kind of cuts conversations off we're killing our curiosity that way and so everything is talked about from an angle from an agenda if it's like, if it's done this way, even the algorithm will push you more to you just need to click on one thing and you're gonna get a slew of other things that are reinforcing that idea and yet I feel we need more just exploration that curiosity and say, oh, you know, what makes this thing bad? What makes this thing good? Let me wait for myself. But there isn't that anymore. It's literally to you. Michael Hingson ** 59:05 And the conversation Why Can't We Be curious is definitely an issue. Chenai Kadungure ** 59:15 So it's interesting if we think of exactly like what you're saying in schools, maybe the curiosity is still there because kids are younger, but what is happening to us later on in life that dance that curiosity altogether? Well, Michael Hingson ** 59:29 the problem is that so many people are growing up, learning not to be curious and being discouraged from being curious and so they pass it on. Chenai Kadungure ** 59:39 Oh, that's a hole you've opened a hole that opens a can of worms. A lack of curiosity. I'm like, oh, that's its own. Wow. Yeah, cuz because if you can give, if you can give trauma and everything else based on experiences, you could give whole world views based on the you know, I'm not curious Why should you be curious? You know, I think that's the conversation that ends up happening. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:05 But if you go back and look at why am I not curious and you go back and study it, it's probably because you were discouraged. I'm sure there are some people who are born. Not curious. But generally, I suspect that it's we're discouraged from being curious. Chenai Kadungure ** 1:00:20 Absolutely. I'd say with one, one thing as well, since we've we've had a lot of new things thrown at us, I would say in the past 15 years, they're just things that did not exist 15 years ago, and we just been riddled with them. I think there is an element of, we just don't even get to process anything. Right? So forget even curiosity. We haven't even begun to look at how something like the pandemic really impacted all of us. Right? We don't even have the time to do that. Because one crisis after the next. And so I think there's also some of that we're just surviving, that it's like, curiosity seems like a luxury. So how do we get out of that, like, just surviving? Michael Hingson ** 1:01:05 It's very good point. We can do it. But we don't. And again, there's a lot of our politicians discourage it. So you know, there's that's another story, but we won't go there. Well, I want to thank you for being with us. This has been fun. Do you know we've been doing this for over an hour. So yeah, see, and you didn't even say you were hungry. Although I know it's late back there. But this has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you maybe learn more about the association or learn more about you? How might they do that? Oh, Chenai Kadungure ** 1:01:40 well, definitely. They can. I mean, they can email me email me. I am ed@bpao.org. Bravo, Papa, alpha. October. I don't know if I still have my phone and expect close. And also, they can go to the website as well. www.bpao.org Or they can search me on LinkedIn. I think you did a good job of trying to say my name, but I'm sure they can. You know, see. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:12 My you said Chenai Kadungure ** 1:02:13 Chenai Kadungure. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 There you go. Oh, Chenai Kadungure ** 1:02:19 thank you so much. For the Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 this has been this has been a lot of fun. I've enjoyed the conversation. I hope all of you listening have enjoyed it. Love to hear your thoughts, please email me and feel free to reach out to shehnai and, and engage her in a discussion as you will. But if you'd like to reach out to me, you're welcome to do so by email. Michaelhi at accessibe.com. That's m i c h a e l h i at A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. So that's www.m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast love to hear from you. And please give us a five star rating wherever you hear this podcast wherever you are. We really appreciate your ratings and your value in your comments, and your input and Chennai for you and you listening if you know anyone who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset. Really, we want to hear from you. I want to know, and we're always looking for guests, so please don't hesitate to suggest other folks and help us meet them. So one more time tonight. I want to thank you for being here and taking this time with us today. Chenai Kadungure ** 1:03:36 Well, thank you for being a light and dark spaces. I think just even the name unstoppable that excites me because I know exactly what you said so much of our everyday is how do we stop people? How do we stop certain things. So thank you. Michael Hingson ** 1:03:55 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
