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Maryl Eva says she is “a tattoo enthusiast, who is obsessed with gardening, her dog named Jim, and helping clients gain self-awareness”. Yes, we will talk about all these subjects. We start with Jim. Why not? I am sure he and guide dog Alamo would get along so dogs got, at least for a brief time, top billing.
Maryl is a “data driven coach” who uses a tool called TAIS to conduct initial evaluations and direct how she coaches her clients. She offers lots of great life lessons and observations I think we all can use in our work and personal worlds.
I look forward to hearing from you about this episode. Clearly as you will see, Maryl is unstoppable, but it has been a journey for her to get that way. Enjoy and please let me know your thoughts. As always, I would appreciate you giving us a 5 star rating. Your ratings and insights are extremely important to me
About the Guest: Maryl Eva (She/Her) is a tattoo enthusiast, who is obsessed with gardening, her dog named Jim, and helping clients gain self-awareness. As a data driven coach, Maryl helps people understand and leverage their strengths in a personal and professional capacity. By creating strategic plans that ask and answer questions such as “what do you NEED to have in your environment to thrive?” and “in what situations can you leverage the strengths of others?”, Maryl helps clients sustain growth and make informed decisions about their paths. Here’s an example: You know you want to be a leader. Your data shows that you are a strategic thinker who is less energetic with monotonous tasks, who appreciates novelty, and who is highly competitive (four of the twenty scales we measure). This profile is not going to succeed in an industry that moves slowly and operates “the way things have always been done”. Your strengths will take off in an industry and position that is project-based, fast moving and has an emphasis on winning. Let’s think smaller for a second. You KNOW you want to be a leader, but for the time being, you’re learning the ropes of your industry and you feel like pulling your hair out. A lot of your job is tactical and draining. You’re not directly involved in the wins of the team. How are you going to survive until you get to where your profile is leading you? Here are some tips:
Ways to connect with Maryl:
About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, once again, and yes it is that time unstoppable mindset is back with you for another episode. Today we get to talk with Maryl Eva, Eva. And Maryl is a person who is a tattoo enthusiast, a gardener. She has a dog named Jim that I my longing to hear how much she spoils him. And she loves to help clients in terms of dealing with the issues of gaining self awareness and connecting. So I think we're going to have a lot of fun. We got a lot to talk about. And and yes, we definitely have to spend some time talking about Jim Maryl. So Maryl, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Maryl Eva ** 02:01 Thank you so much, Michael. And I'm really excited to be here. And you're gonna have to rein me in when talking about Jim, because I could spend the entire hour just doing that. Michael Hingson ** 02:09 Well tell us a little about Jim. Let's Maryl Eva ** 02:10 start. Yeah, perfect. Jim is almost five, he is a Brittany. And I like to cut his hair. So he has just a little tuft on the top of his head and like the ends of his ears are curly, and everybody hates it. But I think it's so cute. Michael Hingson ** 02:26 Well, does he react negatively to it? Maryl Eva ** 02:29 No, he loves getting it. There Michael Hingson ** 02:32 you go. So you know, who cares what other people think of that it's all about Jim. Exactly. Well, I really appreciate you coming on unstoppable mindset and getting the giving us the chance to talk with you and getting the chance to talk about whatever you'd like to talk about. I'd like to start by just going back a little bit and tell us about you growing up and kind of how you got where you are anything that you want to talk about regarding the younger Maryl? Maryl Eva ** 03:03 Absolutely. So I grew up in Cambridge, Ontario. And I ended up going to the University of Ottawa for biomedical studies. And that was after sort of a, an easy high school career, let's say of getting really good grades and thought that university would be no different. And I did horribly, I failed three classes in my first year and knew that I couldn't stay in that program. And the only class that I really enjoyed was psychology. So I ended up switching over to psychology, and loved it. So after university, I wanted to kind of branch out a bit and I ended up doing a post grad at a college in Toronto, and did sporting event marketing where I met. One of my professors named Nancy and Nancy asked after I graduated if I wanted to help her start a company that was focused on bringing a psychometric evaluation to younger professionals. And so this assessment is called TAIS T A I S and completely changed my view on myself. I'm an extremely skeptical person by nature and didn't really know what it would offer me but it's completely just changed how I view myself and self awareness in general. And I've been really passionate about helping people build these strategic plans that are centered around self awareness ever since. Michael Hingson ** 04:27 Well, how to TAIS really change your life. Maryl Eva ** 04:30 So the first, the first thing that I learned about myself with TAIS, so I'll back up just a smidge and talk about TAIS. So it stands for the attentional and interpersonal style inventory. And it's a psychometric assessment that was created in 1976 and has been used by like major sports teams, tier one military, CEOs, executives, top research in medical studies, not sort of thing. But nobody was really bringing it to younger people. So I felt very fortunate to be able to have access to this assessment. And Nancy, who was my coach and mentor, and continues to be my mentor now, she said, Maryl, you're, I think you're quick to anger, and you feel very guilty about it immediately. And I was so horrified because I had spent years trying to hide up back from people. And I was like, Oh, God, she seen the worst that I have to offer, which is that I'm quick to anger. And she said, it's not a bad thing. It's actually one of your biggest strengths. You know, you can have hard conversations with empathy. And people understand that, you know, you're direct, and if something was wrong, you would tell them and they can trust that you're going to be honest with them and build trust, and it's actually your biggest strength. So this thing inside me that I had been hiding for forever, became something that I ended up really loving about myself. So huge change. Michael Hingson ** 06:00 And so I assume you put into practice in your own life, the things that you learned from TAIS, and so on. Maryl Eva ** 06:09 Yeah, absolutely. And with kind of keeping in this quick to anger, one of the things that I've already mentioned that I'm skeptical that I used to be even more skeptical. And so it's been something that I've actively worked on, with the knowledge that I've gained from taste and the process of coaching. And I've kind of been able to build strategies to be a little bit less skeptical. And now since it's a habit, after years, I don't need to use these strategies to be less skeptical. And the result is it's made me more open minded to a lot of different things a Michael Hingson ** 06:41 little bit less likely to anger is quickly. Maryl Eva ** 06:45 Yeah, definitely. So you know, before, it would be if I felt somebody was wrong about something, I would need to correct them, or very had a strong sense of justice, even if it had nothing to do with me. And, you know, if someone just an example, if someone's very interested in using crystals for their, their health, so it's something I'm interested in. So before, I might have said, like, well, here's all the reasons that it doesn't work. But the strategies that I put in place where I first asked myself, is it hurting anybody? Is it hurting them? Is it hurting somebody else? Am I in a position to stand up? And Is anything going to be gained if I actually, you know, share my opinion on this? Well, no crystals, somebody using crystals to cure their headaches is not hurting them. And I'm not going to gain anything by sharing my own thoughts about that. So just take a second and think of this from a learning environment or learning perspective and see what I can learn about this. And I enjoy that way of thinking a lot more. Michael Hingson ** 07:44 Yeah, absolutely. And the other aspect of it is, have you discovered sometimes that perhaps things like them using crystals and so on really does work? Maryl Eva ** 07:56 It does. Yeah, the brain is a powerful thing. So if somebody believes that using crystals helps them with their headaches, chances are it does help them. Michael Hingson ** 08:03 Yeah. Whether it's directly the crystal or not. The point is that they believe that it does. Maryl Eva ** 08:09 Absolutely. And it's not my place to ruin that for them. Michael Hingson ** 08:13 Yeah, or or to, to criticize we, we are such a critical race, aren't we we criticize a lot. Maryl Eva ** 08:21 We really are. And sometimes it's good. And sometimes you really need to learn to rein it in. Michael Hingson ** 08:26 One of the things that I've said it a few times on this podcast is I used to say I'm my own worst critic, I love to listen to my speeches, I record speeches, and then I listen to them. After I get back from delivering them somewhere, and I've said, I'm my own worst critic, it really helps me get better. But what I've learned is, I shouldn't really say it in a negative way. And so I've learned to say, I'm my own best teacher, because I really do get to learn and teach myself by listening. And that shouldn't be in isn't a negative thing. Maryl Eva ** 09:00 Absolutely. I really liked that. I like that reframing. And you know, Michael, that's the top athletes all have a high self critical score. And it's a good thing, it pushes you to be better, it only becomes a problem if you don't have an outlet for that self critical. And then you kind of spiral and maybe don't have the right foundation of strength awareness and things like that. Michael Hingson ** 09:22 I find that if we get away from the concept of self critical and say it's a learning experience, and I'm teaching myself and I grow from it. First of all, it takes the negativity away. And it it brings in more positive things. And I tend to be more open to my own evaluation by doing that. I love that great Maryl Eva ** 09:44 way to reframe, Michael Hingson ** 09:45 yeah, makes a lot of sense to do. Words matter. It's as simple as that. And we oftentimes grow up thinking about too many negative things and, and worrying about things in a negative way. We so often When do what if? And we so often do? Gosh, I'm my own worst critic. I can't do that, when, in fact, all of those are opportunities. Maryl Eva ** 10:11 Yeah, absolutely. I often tell a story about an old boss that I had that wasn't a very good boss. And he told me once that Maryl what I love about you is that you're a Yes, man. And I didn't say this. But I was thinking like, Yeah, I'm only a Yes, man, because I don't really care anymore. And it's kind of the same with yourself, right? Like, nobody's gonna care more about your, your future than you. So being, you know, a little bit of a teacher, as you might say, is really a sign that you care about yourself. Michael Hingson ** 10:43 Yeah, and, and it's the way it ought to be. We, nobody's gonna care more about us than us. And that isn't a negative thing. It isn't an egotistical thing. It's more an issue of, we learn to value ourselves, and we learn to do all we can to, well, whatever our mission is, improve life, connect with people help other people connect, teach people or whatever. But we're the best that we can be if we really let ourselves do what we need to do, and then learn from it. Absolutely. So you and Nancy started the company. Maryl Eva ** 11:23 Yeah, we started a company in 2017. And then parted ways in 2019, she was kind of taking the company very sports driven and working with athletes. And even though I have a, you know, post grad certificate in sports, it's really not my area of interest. So I went to go work in the poultry industry for a while and, you know, was sort of part of the the big layoffs that were happening. And I found myself sort of unhappy and wanting to get back into working with with people and working with taste again. And so I've kind of gone out on my own with still having Nancy as a mentor, but going out on my own to coach clients. Michael Hingson ** 12:08 So you and Nancy, sort of at least still work together at least as mentor and mentee and collaborators in some ways. Maryl Eva ** 12:15 Absolutely. And I'm sure we always will. She's, it's, you know, when you find somebody who really values self awareness and values growth and personalized growth, it's it's kind of hard to quit that. Michael Hingson ** 12:28 Why is self awareness so important? Tell me more about your thoughts on that. Maryl Eva ** 12:33 Yeah. And self awareness is one of those. I think it's kind of like a buzzword? Michael Hingson ** 12:39 Yeah, it is. And that's why I asked, right, yeah. Maryl Eva ** 12:41 And it's so important, because it really is just the foundation that we build our entire lives out of. It's, you know, understanding who we are, it helps us make better decisions, it helps us feel better about the decisions that we've made. It helps us make changes when we need to, it keeps our brains engaged. And honestly, it's just, it's more fun when you're self aware. Michael Hingson ** 13:03 What does it really mean, to be self aware? Maryl Eva ** 13:07 So to me anyway, self awareness is having an objective look at who we are and how we react to different situations. So it's not necessarily just, you know, oh, this is what I like, or this is, when I have fun. It's more like, where do you go under pressure? Or what's your default setting? If you're in a situation? How do you respond to other people in situations? How do you communicate yourself? Being for me being able to have a framework to kind of rely on for like, taste, for example, or really any data driven? Coaching is pretty essential to just have that sort of framework of what self awareness means to you. So Michael Hingson ** 13:50 it seems to me that as part of that you should also be working to really do a lot of self assessment, as you said, self awareness, but self assessment and evaluate what you're doing. Is it working? Is it not working? How can I make it better sort of thing? Maryl Eva ** 14:07 Yeah, absolutely. And if you have a tool that helps all the better, if you don't have a tool, you know, just yeah, having to kind of ask yourself questions. I like to think like, if you're struggling with self awareness, and you don't have access to data driven coaching, there's definitely publications out there that can help. Tasha Urich is a an author, I think she's like one of the foremost researchers on self awareness. Her book is called Insight and it's a great place to start. And, you know, if you don't have access to that sort of resource, I say, you know, like, kind of treat yourself like a little scientific experiment and be like day 1020 of self awareness. Like subject feels better after talking to Mom potentially extroverted question mark, like just that sort of thing. Makes it fun to Michael Hingson ** 14:55 well, the whole issue of self awareness also comes down it seems to be a little bit to, then how you comport yourself overall, which, which is, I guess another way of saying, we also need to learn to be or work to be energetic and not be passive in everything that we do. It seems to me that that's kind of important. So what do you is, if you were to say it, what's the value of what gives us energy and understanding that Maryl Eva ** 15:27 so important, like, you know, we all know this, that there's a finite amount of energy that we have to get through each day. And you know, for some of us, that amount of energy that we start with isn't as high as, as some of the other people due to a number of things. It might be, you know, time of year, it might be that you have children or taking up some of your time, it could be a disability. For me, I have a chronic pain disorder called endometriosis. And some days, it's like, almost impossible to get out of bed, but I still have things that I need to do, right. So being able to kind of prioritize things based on how they give me energy, or even being able to proactively plan out my week based on things that give me energy is, you know, it's, it's a game changer. And it's not all like we think so this sort of like self care is just like, well, you know, at the end of the day, I need to have a bubble bath and put my face mask on. But it's a lot deeper and more complicated than that. So for me personally, things that give me energy might not give you energy. For me, I'm very extroverted and then not introverted, at all tastes measures those two as separate skills. So even if I'm not feeling it, I know that if I have a conversation with somebody that I care about, or if I'm in a place where there are a lot of people, even if at the beginning, I'm resistant to it, I know that I'll feel better after I my default focus is also very analytical. So I like to problem solve and look at the big picture. So for me, while I'm having my coffee, I do the New York Times crossword, not always successfully, like I have never completed a Friday or a Saturday puzzle. But that sort of problem solving, it energizes me at the beginning of the day. And I also know what zaps my energy, which is, you know, simple but repetitive tasks, I find those almost impossible to do and so draining. So I know that if I have to do that sort of task to sort of energize myself beforehand by doing something strategic, or body double and go to my mom's house, or have my partner home and and, and I can get through because I'm energized because of that. Michael Hingson ** 17:34 Do you feel that we really do have some control over how much energy we have, or how much we can take in and increase what we think we have the ability to have in the way of energy? Maryl Eva ** 17:47 I think we have some control over it. Yeah. And I think for me, well, I know for me, I've had jobs where I've had to be very tactics driven, and do the sort of more repetitive tasks and I am just exhausted at the end of the day. Now, that's not to say that I can just, you know, do enough New York Times crosswords, that my endometriosis won't affect me. But, you know, on the days that I'm not doing very well, I know that, okay, I want to get something done. I know, for me, building strategies is a lot easier and a lot more energy bringing than doing something like paperwork. So when those really bad days, I know I'm still going to be capable of, you know, being strategic, I'm just not going to be as capable of doing the more mundane tasks. Michael Hingson ** 18:31 What is endometriosis? Maryl Eva ** 18:33 So endometriosis is a disorder or disease, actually, I think it's classified as where uterus are cells that are very similar to uterine cells grow outside of your uterus and can cause lesions and scar tissues and can like, fuse your organs together. And it can be as it progresses, it can it can be very, very painful. Michael Hingson ** 18:57 Is it controllable? Maryl Eva ** 18:59 So the only way to really treat it is through surgery, which is kind of unfortunate. But there is no cure for it through surgery through some medications that can be managed, for sure. But they have not found a cure yet. Michael Hingson ** 19:16 One of those things we can work toward or hope for. Yeah, I Maryl Eva ** 19:19 hope so. Michael Hingson ** 19:20 So the real question is, how come you don't ever seem to be able to complete a Friday or Saturday, New York Times crossword puzzle to the real substance here. Maryl Eva ** 19:32 Would it be to like self critical stance not Michael Hingson ** 19:38 not self critical as a teaching moment. Maryl Eva ** 19:41 I strategically cheat on the Friday and Saturdays and I feel pretty good about that. Michael Hingson ** 19:49 So maybe there's just not enough energy built up yet or you use it all by the time you get to Friday and Saturday. Maryl Eva ** 19:55 Yeah, we'll just say it's because I'm young and I don't know enough yet. Well, that's Michael Hingson ** 19:59 there. So it's a goal. Yeah, you will, you will definitely celebrate the first time you complete a Friday or a Saturday puzzle. Our Sunday puzzles, not as hard. Maryl Eva ** 20:09 Sunday puzzles aren't as hard, but they're bigger. So they might be more daunting. But not Michael Hingson ** 20:16 having having never done a New York Times crossword puzzle. I never even look to see if online, they're accessible, but probably, probably not. But I don't know, I won't say that. I don't want to criticize the New York Times. It's it's a different issue. But it is interesting to, to think about, I'm going to have to go explore that. But I also know there are a lot of words I don't know. So you know. Well, so. So you as a as a young person, though, you went out of college, I joined forces with Nancy did things with the the company. And then she took the company to the sports world, and you went elsewhere. And now you're back to coaching, what what made you decide to go back into coaching. Maryl Eva ** 21:04 It's just something that since I, I started working with taste, and I was a new student, so new out of my post grad, I fell in love with it. And I want to just kind of a little bit more. It's a corporate context, and enjoyed my time working in the poultry industry. But when that was done, I felt I had learned kind of enough about poultry didn't want to continue down that road. And I was job searching when all those layoffs in tech happened. And it was, it was pretty tough. And I was getting frustrated by looking for a job. And I just started kind of coaching on the side and fell right back in love with it and decided it was a venture worth pursuing. Michael Hingson ** 21:47 So do you actually have a company and a company name? Maryl Eva ** 21:50 Right now it's just merrily but consulting? Yeah, it's it works. And I've got, you know, I'm very fortunate to have a quite a few clients that I work with, and things are going really well. Michael Hingson ** 22:04 Do you have clients all over the world? Or Where where are they? Maryl Eva ** 22:08 I have clients, some in the states and mostly in Canada, um, I do everything remotely, so it could be kind of wherever, but that's just how it's worked out so far. Michael Hingson ** 22:17 So what is data driven coaching? You describe it, that's what you do. So tell us a little bit more about what that is? And how is it different from other kinds of coaching? Maryl Eva ** 22:27 Yeah, I think, um, you know, I think coaching has been another kind of those buzzword concepts. And I would say there's almost an epidemic of people deciding to kind of become coaching without training. And so for me, there's two different kinds of coaching, there's foundational coaching, and then there's functional coaching. So functional coaching, eyes are people functional coaches are people who would teach skills based on you know, their own training or their own knowledge or experience. So if you have like, a stockbroker with an illustrious career in trading stocks, teaching people how to trade stocks, perfect, right, very in line with what they they know how to do. And that would be a very good example of functional coaching. So foundational coaches, or coaches, who more help kind of build this general self awareness. And I think it can be, it can be pretty dangerous to have not data driven coaching, because everybody is so different. And the more you can personalize that coaching, the better and then the better your results will be and the more accurate the coaching can then become. So what I really like about data driven coaching is it doesn't really matter what my experiences are, as long as I can help interpret the data and help build strategic plans off of what they've learned from the data, because it's all about them. It really has nothing to do with me at that point. So TAIS itself is what my clients use, and TAIS iscomprised comprised of 20 different scales. And all of those skills influence each other to create a very unique profile, which is reflective or representative of how unique each person is who takes it. But there's, you know, we've all done some form of psychometric stuff, or data driven assessments that could lead to coaching. A really common example is Myers Briggs, which is quite simplistic compared to the ones that we use, but it's a great example that most people are familiar with. And it's that sort of thing is wonderful to just kind of even start your journey of self awareness. Michael Hingson ** 24:34 So how does it work? How do you interact with clients? Is that do they fill out a form a survey questionnaire? Or how does that work? Maryl Eva ** 24:45 Yeah, so it's 144 questions just online and then the algorithm of the assessment creates a profile, which then the clients will get kind of access to and share with me and then we go through it and talk Write it together. Michael Hingson ** 25:01 Why do people come to you? What is it they're seeking that you can help them with? Maryl Eva ** 25:07 Oh, there's a myriad of things. So I love working with students, I really wish that this was something that I had when I was in university. So I love working with, with students. And a lot of times when I work with students, we talk about things like, you know how to study the best for their unique profile, how to choose a career path that matches their profiles, that it's not going to burn them out, or they're not going to lose interest in how to prep for an interview, it's, you know, these are my strengths. These are some things like, you know, if you ask, what's your strengths, what's your weakness, we can help arm them with really great answers to those things. People who are like a little bit later on in their career, maybe 510 years, oftentimes, they'll come to you wanting to understand, like, how to ask for what they want out of their careers, if they're looking for a promotion, well, what are some of the skills that I need to build in terms of, you know, the direction that I want to go in, that will help me get there, a lot of times, they'll come to me with help to set boundaries, that's probably the most common ask, how to give and receive feedback, how and then teams will come to me wanting to know what their own strengths are, and how to communicate it with their team and as a team leverage the sort of collective strengths that they have. Michael Hingson ** 26:26 Can you give us kind of an example of maybe a brief case study or just a story about, in general, someone you worked with and what you did and how the whole process works? Maryl Eva ** 26:41 Yeah, absolutely. So one of my pro bono clients is an old intern of mine. And so I've I've told him, I'll coach Michael Hingson ** 26:49 named Nick named Jim. Right? Jim? Yes. Maryl Eva ** 26:53 Human Jim. Michael Hingson ** 26:58 Didn't know whether he just adopted you after the puppy. Maryl Eva ** 27:04 I have an uncle named Jim. And that's my call like humans. So this human Jim, he came to me as an intern, and I said, I'd coach him for the rest of his, his university career. So we've been focusing on, you know, building his strengths, so that he can communicate them in an interview and understand his weaknesses as as not being weaknesses, but being things to be kind of aware of, like tendencies to be aware of, and also how he can he can leverage his own strengths to get through that or to leverage other people. But what I think is really amazing for really young people like that is they're entering the the the workforce, is that they learn how to communicate what they need to be their best. And so when they can go to their new boss, or new leader and say, Here's exactly how you can coach me to get the best out of me, I'm going to take all that guesswork out, and you've done a lot of your leaders job for you. And then they know exactly who you are, what they can give you. And it kind of becomes this, you know, very healthy relationship of success and sustainability. Another example, which I think most of us can relate to, is, you know, kind of being able to understand your own strengths, but then starting to look at how other people act in terms of this, this framework of data as well and kind of making some inferences about how they are acting towards you. So one example of that is, you know, if you've ever had a really bad boss, who just like, doesn't let you do anything, doesn't seem to want you to learn or grow and just wants to kind of tear down your confidence. I think that's a relatively universal experience. And it can be really confusing, and it can really have an effect on your confidence. So I was recently going through this with one of my clients who had gone through the strengths, assessment and an understanding what she brings to the table. And we're talking about reasons why her confidence might be low, and it kind of came up with her own her old boss. So we talked about why, you know why her old boss might have treated her this way. And we kind of landed on that she she was insecure, very high in control and wanted to have her hands in a lot of the tactics and the day to day. And that one of the possible reasons that she acted this way was that she was afraid that my client would outgrow her or was insecure and threatened that her these amazing strikes that my client had would kind of shine like shine through over her boss's ability. And for my client. It was it was an amazing sort of revelation of no I think you're right. I think that's exactly what it is. And it was it was never me it was never my abilities that you was keeping me down for it's because I have all of this potential and sometimes that potential will scare people. So she said she's, you know, kind of finally ready to let go of this, you know, her words traumatic experience with her boss and feels like she has a clean slate of trust with her new boss and can really move on from that. So sometimes it goes even deeper than understanding ourselves where we can kind of start to understand the actions of other people around us. Michael Hingson ** 30:27 So why is it advantageous to do this sort of a process as a data driven coach, as opposed to some other form of or process? Maryl Eva ** 30:38 going, Yeah, going through data driven, coaching, it's just, it's great, because it kind of cuts through the noise. And it just gives you clarity, so much faster than if you were trying to answer these questions by yourself. And a lot of times, too, we don't, we don't really know ourselves as well as we really think that we do. I can't remember the exact stat. But I know in Tasha Eurich spoke insight, it's, it's very low, how many people actually have kind of true self awareness. And we've lived in our own heads for so long, something that might work is might actually be a really great strength of ours, we might just assume that everybody does it. Right? Like, oh, everybody sees the world this way. It's not a strength. It's just how everybody sees it. So with things like coaching, where there's a little bit more kind of context and a little more objectivity, and see like, oh, no, this is a strength. It's very unique to me. And not everybody thinks this way. So how do I, you know, leverage my own strengths? And how do I understand the strengths that other people have? Michael Hingson ** 31:39 Of course, maybe it's me, but the fact that you can actually point to numbers, you can point to specifics, which, obviously, then you can help a person interpret, but you can actually go back and point to specific numbers or point to specific kinds of definite answers to questions which become real facts, as opposed to just opinion, that has to help. Maryl Eva ** 32:06 Absolutely. It's, it's almost like building armor against your own negative thoughts. Because it's like, well, yeah, I'm having this thought that I'm not very good at this, or maybe even imposter syndrome, which I know. You know, I'm a millennial, and I know lots of millennials go through impostor syndrome, you're gonna help you like, No, I mean, the numbers don't lie here. And I actually am someone who is a great big picture thinker, and I shouldn't be included in strategic conversations, my leader. Michael Hingson ** 32:35 Yeah. Because you have the ability to step back, you have the ability to look close and get specific information. But then you can draw conclusions, and you have the ability to go back and look at it. And take that out into full principle of why something should be the way it is. Maryl Eva ** 32:56 Yeah, absolutely. And it makes you kind of bulletproof against criticism from others to not in the sense of not listening to that criticism. But you know, if somebody 10 years ago said, you know, Maryl, you're not the most detail oriented person, I feel like, That's so mean of you to say, right, like, how dare you insult me? Someone said that to me today, I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, do you want five examples of why that's true. And it doesn't bother me, because I know that I have other strengths that kind of complement my desire for life a lot better than if I was a very detail oriented person. Michael Hingson ** 33:31 Well, and the, of course, issue, again, is that you can say, well, here are numbers here are reasons why this is the way it is. You can accept it or not. But still, you as an individual can point to specific numbers, you can point to specific indicators that demonstrate why the opinion that you choose is a valid one that people should consider. And that's part of the issue, though, that we oftentimes get locked in our own opinions and locked in our own way of thinking and don't tend to be open or be willing to open up to explore alternatives. Which gets to really be a big problem. We don't do nearly enough self analysis and ponder our own worlds and how we can make it better and how we can be more open and, and and interact better with others. Yeah, absolutely. So that tends to make life fun. Sometimes, needless to say. Well, so I think you've indicated some of this, but tell me a little bit more about how data driven coaching and what you do has benefited you specifically because obviously, you do take this to heart and you must help coach yourself. Maryl Eva ** 34:55 Yeah, well, Oh God, I think that we we are we're our own worst students sometimes, aren't we? I, like an example. I recently had a client ask if we could have a session at he was 11pm on a Friday. And without even thinking, I was like, absolutely whatever you need, like if I go to bed before 11 I'm not even awake at that time. So even though I help people set boundaries, I don't always take my own advice. But in general, yeah, it's it's been, it's been amazing for a lot of things like my relationships with people have gotten better. I talked about how I was able to kind of take this self critical thought that I was just an angry person and have it become my biggest strength in and work on the parts of that, that I didn't really care for. I've also, you know, the the detail oriented thing is a real example for my life. I'm not a very good, I'm not very good with with details. And I have been able to have tangible strategies to make sure that's not a problem. So for example, every client session I have before we finish, I booked the next one, so that I don't forget to book, you know, if I say yeah, next Friday, sounds great. I'll pencil you in because I will forget. So just little strategies like that. Some other things that are unique to me that wouldn't be unique, or wouldn't necessarily help everyone else. But if I need to focus, I know that I need chaos around me. So I actually do a lot better if I need to focus or study or something I do better if I go to a bar, I'm really encouraged by that. Environment. Even though I don't drink alcohol, I like the environment a lot. Or if I can't do that, I put on an episode of Hell's Kitchen, in the background for me, like there's nothing more encouraging than Gordon Ramsay screaming. I was just thinking that, yeah, so it's unique to me, as far as I know. But I it's really helpful and, and just kind of being open to things like that, that I would have felt bad about myself a while ago, like before doing taste, I would have been really frustrated that you know, going to the quietest part of the library, and studying actually did nothing for me. And I used to take that to heart like, well, maybe I'm just not as smart as I thought I was because I'm not doing well in these classes. And I'm trying to memorize these facts, but I have no idea. They've just come and gone into my brain. And I don't remember anything. So just even kind of giving yourself the permission and the understanding of of trying new things, and seeing what works for you has been a bit of a big change. And I'm also a lot fat, like a lot quicker to sort of understand other people's perspectives as well. And this sort of thing like taste has given me a framework to identify some traits in other people that as neutral and not as bad. So somebody else, you know, not wanting to or not being very good with change, for example, that used to really bother me, because I'm very okay with change. Sometimes I prefer change. So it used to make me upset when people weren't okay with change. And now I see it as a neutral and not a negative. Michael Hingson ** 38:08 It is interesting, though, that we hear constantly from people. Yeah, change is all around us. And there's got to be change. And we've got to get used to it. But we hate it. There's this paradox. And I think that it's all too often true that no matter what we say, our environment, or the people around us, teach us more sometimes to be stuck in our own comfort zone rather than exploring the concept of change. And that doesn't mean you change just to change. But being open to the concept of change is something that ultimately we seem to have a hard time with. Maryl Eva ** 38:47 Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure. Michael Hingson ** 38:50 So how do you get people to be more open to move towards self awareness to do more self assessment in their lives? What what do you do? Or what do you say to get people to really start to open themselves up to thinking maybe I need to be more open or more accepting of the fact that maybe it isn't exactly the way I think it is? Or that Lisa or other options, which is something that you learn? How do you help other people learn that? Maryl Eva ** 39:22 So I think self awareness is very much like that, that old metaphor of can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. There's no real way to kind of force somebody into self awareness. Sometimes things happen that will encourage self awareness, whether it's you know, there's something that's a cognitive dissonance where they thought they they were this way and they come kind of face to face with the situation that shows them otherwise. But you know, as a coach, it really has to be like they have to be ready for self awareness and that sort of reflection because it can be really painful especially if your child Talking about things like competence or, you know, criticism, that sort of thing, it can be very painful to be vulnerable, and not everybody is ready for it. You know, one of my tactics is just to kind of show off how good the tool is, right? Like, tell him a couple of things about themselves that, you know, like Nancy did with me, you know, You're quick to anger and then feel guilty. I'm like, Whoa, how did you know that? Like that kind of that sort of thing. But in general, yeah, you have to be ready for self awareness, and you have to want it. Michael Hingson ** 40:33 It is hard, though it can to get people to recognize that vulnerability is with us. It doesn't mean that we're weak, but rather that we're open. And that is just something that seems to be very hard to get people to recognize. Maryl Eva ** 40:52 Absolutely. And I think we, some of us have sort of a, an untrue idea of what vulnerability has to be. So an example of that would be, you know, I have a few clients actually, who said to me, like, I don't want to ask my my leader for help, I don't want to bother them by asking them for help. And I don't want them to think that I need help. And asking for help can be an incredibly vulnerable experience. And the reality of it is that when you ask for help, or you ask clarifying questions, the person who you're asking those questions up, they feel like you're more engaged with the subject matter, or they feel like you're taking it more seriously, if you've asked for help. And oftentimes, they want to help right people, most people want to help them want to be included. So this thing that feels very vulnerable is actually objectively a good thing. Michael Hingson ** 41:48 We, I think, collectively liked to help other people. And we do like to be engaged, and I value very much what you're saying, because it's a very important point that, in reality, we really want to help other people. Mostly, I think that there are some people who have their own hidden agendas. And that's always a tough thing to deal with. I talk a lot about dogs. And one of the things that I say is that dogs, I believe, really do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. The difference between a dog and a person is that unless the dog has gone through some incredible trauma, dogs, at least are open to trust. And I say that now having had eight guide dogs and gone through a training programs, at Guide Dogs for the Blind with guide dogs, and seeing that they want to please they want to trust they're open to trust. But I believe it really takes a year for me to get to the point where my relationship with a dog, synergistically speaking, is so interdependent that we really do anticipate each other and that we work seamlessly as a team. But it is about being open to trust. And the other part about it is that we tend to be a whole lot less open to trust than the dogs do. We learn we learned from other people, well, you know, what is your hidden agenda and so on? Or my dog, my previous dog didn't do it that way I can't trust dog is different than what I had before. Rather than being open, and looking at the new things that come along, and the excitement and the value of a new relationship. Maryl Eva ** 43:39 Absolutely, you can learn so much from each other if you're open. Michael Hingson ** 43:43 Yeah, it is. It is something that we have a hard time again, learning. But in our corporate world, there are so many people who don't want to trust because the person that maybe they should learn to trust, they think might have a hidden agenda will betray them and so on. It goes back to we do so much what if we tend to miss so many other valuable things? And we don't really have control over what is because you don't know what's going to happen. Or if it's going to happen. We don't tend to really step back and say, what do I really have control over here and what don't I have control over here? Maryl Eva ** 44:29 Yeah, absolutely. There's a little piece of kind of good news about corporate America, let's say which is not a phrase you probably hear very often. So two of the scales that taste measures are called support and affection and criticism and anger. So support and affection is where you'd like to give and receive support and overall believe that positive reinforcement is a better way to live and criticism and anger are completely separate skill is basically how direct can you be Are confrontational might you be? How sort of freely do you express any anger or frustration, and the aggregate data of business executives in America tells us that they're much, much higher on support and affection. So even the people at the top, they still want and need to give and receive the support and affection. So love still very much comes through even at the top. Michael Hingson ** 45:27 In team building and developing relationships, what do you think about the whole concept of conflict? Maryl Eva ** 45:35 So I told you, I'm quick to anger. So my criticism and anger score is quite high, not as high as my support and affection, but it is quite high. And I think I think everybody has sort of a different definition of what conflict is or what like the the threshold of confrontation, let's say. So for a team that has very similar support and affection and criticism and anger scores, it's going to be naturally quite easy, even if they're quite high on the criticism and anger. So to somebody looking in who has a different sort of scale, they might think, like, man, that team is very uncomfortably direct with each other. But that's all authentic to them, and they appreciate it. And they really appreciate that sort of honesty. And it's this like radical, radical truth telling amongst your team with a common goal to fight for. If you have a team that's very high on sport infection, very low on criticism and anger, it's sort of the same thing, like that team is very loving, and they're very open with their positive reinforcement. And it works, because they're all the same. Where you can get some sort of some kind of conflict to say, as if you have different, you know, sort of different scales on, these are different scores on these two skills. And then it's really just about understanding each other understanding each other's communication style, and just respecting that as how they communicate. So if somebody's higher on the scale, and they're more direct, being able to understand that it's just how they communicate and sort of free up any any notion of conflict when you're having a potentially hard conversation. Also good if you have somebody who's naturally more inclined to be able to have these harder conversations with empathy, you know, those are going to be the people who are going to be working in situations like if you have to discipline somebody or fire them, God forbid. And they'll do a lot better than somebody who is not as sort of apt to have these sort of conversations. But yeah, first step is understanding yourself. And if you can understand your teammates, and sort of radically accept how you guys communicate naturally, Michael Hingson ** 47:43 have you ever read a book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni? Maryl Eva ** 47:48 I have not, but I'm gonna write it down. Michael Hingson ** 47:52 He talks about the mistakes that that teams generally make and really becoming teams. And one of the things that he talks about a lot is conflict. And he said, one of the best things that teams can do is to have an embrace conflict. And that leads to open discussions. Now, eventually, a decision has to be made usually, or a lot of times conflict is based around trying to deal with making a decision. But he said, and he says that, that the value of conflict is that people, if they do it, right, are open to disagreement or open to fighting for their position. But they also realize that they're doing it for the benefit of the team. And you got to take the personal out of it. And if you do that, you can have very constructive conflict and discussion. And then eventually, it may come down to someone has to make a decision, or maybe enough people get convinced to one side or another. But the team leader may also eventually have to say, Okay, I've heard everything, this is the way we're going to do it. The other part about all that is that in that kind of a team relationship, once the decision is made, however it's made, the team has to agree to abide by the decision. And if the time comes, and it turns out the decision was the wrong one, then you go back and you deal with it, but you got to take the personal out of it. Maryl Eva ** 49:24 Yeah, absolutely. I love that. It's like with, with, you know, partnerships, like if you're arguing with your partner, like Remember, it's you and your partner against the problem not against each other. Michael Hingson ** 49:36 Right? And unfortunately, all too often we miss that. Maryl Eva ** 49:40 Now, it's it can be really tough, especially if you're not someone who's naturally okay with a more direct conversation. It can feel incredibly personal. Michael Hingson ** 49:50 Yeah, and we have to truly get to the point of understanding that, as she said, It's not not be against my partner, it's us against the problem. Or it's us trying to come to a solution to something together. And again, take the personal out of it. Yeah, what would you advise? For someone who is struggling with self awareness? What kind of advice would you give them? Maryl Eva ** 50:22 I'd say, recognize that it can be hard and be okay with that. And then it's not always going to be uncomfortable to talk about yourselves. I think a lot of times, we're just sort of told that talking about ourselves is egotistical. And you know, we shouldn't do it. Just Be humble all the time. And you can still be humble and still talk about what makes you amazing. And just yeah, be open to it. Try to find as much literature as you can about self awareness. If you can seek out to help with psychometric coaching, or data driven coaching. And if you can't just ask yourself questions, pay attention to how you feel in certain situations, pay attention to what kind of tired you are as well. Like, if you're tired, like you just ran a marathon is very different than being like anxiously exhausted, because maybe you didn't get what you needed out of that out of, you know, out of your day. Yeah, and just you can ask other people questions about how what they think of you as well. And if what they think of you doesn't match up with what you think of yourself, there's probably a bit of a disconnect with either how you're presenting yourself or how well you you know, yourself to begin with? Michael Hingson ** 51:35 How do we get people to take ego out of the equation? Maryl Eva ** 51:40 Honestly, people with with high egos are can be challenging, because it's either comes from a place of insecurity, or it comes from a place of superiority. And I think those are two very different problems to solve. Michael Hingson ** 51:53 How do you deal with that? I know that's not an easy question. Or maybe it's a loaded question. But well, my 10 Maryl Eva ** 52:00 STEP program is now you know, if somebody is coming across as egotistical, but it really is a matter of confidence, typically, it's just about building that confidence. And, you know, having uncomfortable conversations about, you know, these aren't things that you're naturally inclined to do, or these are things that can are going to be a lot harder for you to do. And do you even want to get better at it. Like, do you even want to be better at doing the detail work? Or do you want to spend your time, you know, building a career towards leadership and being a strategic thinker, okay, you want to be a strategic thinker, well, let's let go of not being very good at the details, because it's not going to serve you anyway. So that sort of thing can help build their confidence a little, which then helps them be a little bit more, you know, open minded to things that okay, I didn't do very well on that thing. I'm going to listen to this person who's telling me that and it's okay, that they're telling me I'm not going to detail because I already knew that. Michael Hingson ** 52:55 Yeah. You talked about being tired, especially like mentally tired, and so on. What do you do when you start to feel burnout? How do you address that? Maryl Eva ** 53:05 Yeah, and we've all some of us have had, you know, actual burnout. But we've all kind of felt symptoms of burnout, right, of not being interested anymore, being exhausted, a lot more being more anxious that were, for some of us crying more at work, that sort of thing are all symptoms of, you know, early stage burnout. So what I like to do is have for myself and my clients, we build what I call a need to have a need to avoid list. So these are things based off your profile, what you need to have in order to thrive and what you need to avoid in order to continue to thrive. So These might be things like, from talking about myself, for example, I need to have change, I need to have things that are project based that have short term wins. I need to have things that our big picture need to have things that allow me to work with people, some very extroverted, so I need to be around people, I need to have a certain amount of pressure, external pressure in order to get things done. And some things I need to avoid is I need to avoid intense repetition I need to avoid avoid things that are too predictable. I need to avoid areas where I can't like speak my mind. I need to avoid things that are like too impulsive, like situations where I have to be too impulsive. And I look at this list and if I'm feeling these sort of burnout symptoms, I can say, Okay, I made this list when I wasn't feeling burnt out. So it's a it's more objective than I might be feeling right now. What are some things in my my daily life in the last day, week month that I might not be getting the I need or that I might be having too much of and then I can start to look at? Okay, you know, I've been working on the same project for a really long time. A lot of things I've been Doing recently have been very repetitive. So okay, that makes sense why I'm starting to feel this way, then it can go to is this something that's just temporary, and I just have to grit my teeth and get through it? Or is this a permanent change, and I need to start making some decisions to get out of it. So this helps our self care become a lot more than just like I mentioned, like just having a bubble bath and a face mask, it's very personalized. It's hard, but the payoff is, is a lot bigger. And then it you know, you, you get the sort of sustainability out of it, and you can avoid going down and burnout pathway. Michael Hingson ** 55:36 Sometimes I'm sure it sneaks up on you. But at the same time you have learned and you've taught yourself, how to recognize the symptoms so that at some point, you'll catch it and you go, Oh, wait a minute, this is burnout, or I'm really feeling tired, and I need to back off from something, then the key is, it seems to me that you've taught yourself to at least at some point, whenever it's starting to happen, you can catch yourself and then address it. Maryl Eva ** 56:03 Yeah, and that's the thing about burnout, which, you know, we've we've all felt from time to time where you kind of go in this fight or flight and you're not as likely to say, Okay, let's take a step back and look at my life, like you're just trying to get through the day. So being able to have a list that you've already made. And to be able to refer back to it, it kind of brings you into more of an objective more of a big picture, look without actually having to do the work in that moment where you you're just not capable of it. Michael Hingson ** 56:30 Yeah. And that's a wonderful, lovely gift to have, that you can deal with it, and address how you take care of yourself, which is extremely important to do. Mm hmm. Yeah, so that was certainly Yeah, with that in mind. Tell us about being a tattoo enthusiast. Maryl Eva ** 56:54 Um, well, I just have always loved them since I got my first one at 18. And then hid it from my parents for you know, four years. And then I got a foot and a half long octopus tattooed on my leg, and I couldn't really hide it anymore. So I told them, and then all hell broke loose. And now I think I have maybe 25 tattoos. And many plans are getting more. Michael Hingson ** 57:16 And your parents say what now? Maryl Eva ** 57:20 Well, my, my dad always needed them. He passed away about seven years ago. So he hasn't seen that. He didn't see the you know, the sleeves that I have. But my mom, my mom shares her opinions. This whole direct kind of radical honesty is something I grew up with. She likes most of them. Michael Hingson ** 57:41 art is art. I guess. I've never gotten a tattoo and don't really have any interest in doing it. But I you know, I understand that a lot of people do but tattoos aren't going to do anything for me. Maryl Eva ** 57:52 Yeah. Yeah, you can feel it, though. And you're getting it. That's for Michael Hingson ** 57:58 sure. Well, yeah, I understand that part. But then that goes away once you get it. Yeah, Maryl Eva ** 58:02 I mean, unless you really like getting you know, scratch. Well. You have a sunburn or something? Yeah. Yeah, I guess your money. Michael Hingson ** 58:10 That's true. And you garden also? Maryl Eva ** 58:14 Yes. Yeah. I love gardening. Like come by it honestly, from both sides, my mom and my dad's side. So yeah, I love love gardening, love building gardens, bringing beauty. being allergic to them, you know, everything that comes with it. Michael Hingson ** 58:30 There's that? And how about your partner? Maryl Eva ** 58:33 He tolerates it. He's do what you need to do. And let me know if you need help. But it's really my venture, which is just fine with me. Michael Hingson ** 58:44 As long as you get to feel the love. Yeah, Maryl Eva ** 58:47 exactly. He'll tell me. Nice. And that's good enough. Michael Hingson ** 58:50 Too many cooks. Right. Right. And then there's Jim. Maryl Eva ** 58:53 Yes. And Jim loves the gardens. He's such a good dog. Like he comes out to garden with me and the brand he just hangs out on the grass with me watching the world go by? Michael Hingson ** 59:02 That's cool. Well, you know, we've been doing this a while. And I would hope that people have had their interest piqued if they want to reach out to you, and maybe become a client or learn more about what you do. How do they do that? Maryl Eva ** 59:17 Yeah, come join me on LinkedIn. It's just LinkedIn slash i n, you always have to have slash Maryl Eva, which is a Ryle the A and as far as I know, and we only Mar Eva on LinkedIn, pretty unique name. So yeah, come and join. I always love hearing about how self awareness has changed your life. Michael Hingson ** 59:41 Do you have a website also or a place where people can go or is it all done through LinkedIn? Maryl Eva ** 59:46 Right now LinkedIn, my website is just under construction. Ah, Michael Hingson ** 59:49 well, then we should talk about making sure that it's accessible. But that's another story, which we don't need to worry about today but excessively can help with that. So I there's my my pitch But we'd love to help any way we can. Well, I Maryl Eva ** 1:00:04 10 people about excessively it seems like such an amazing it seems like a no brainer. Like it's just one of those like, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10 Why what is it is and it's not expensive, which really makes it all the better. I want to thank you for being here and I want to thank you all for listening. And we really do appreciate you taking the time to be with Maryl and me today and Alamo who's over here on the floor and wherever Jim is at urine. Alamo my guide dog is a black lab tends to sleep through all these things he says but I absorb it. It's okay. Maryl Eva ** 1:00:36 Yeah, smartest lab there is probably. Michael Hingson ** 1:00:40 Well, thank you all and we appreciate you giving us a five star review, if you will, please wherever you're listening to this. five star reviews really help we value them very highly. We want to hear from you. If you'd like to reach out to me or if you have a thought of somebody else who should be a guest. Please let us know a couple of ways to do that. You can email me at Michael H I M IC H A L H AI at excessive B ACCE SSI B e.com. Or you can go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast where you can listen to lots of episodes of unstoppable mindset. But you also can reach out and we'd love to hear from you. I'd love your thoughts. love to know what you're thinking about this or any of our episodes. And again, please don't hesitate to let us know if you've got some thoughts of other people who should come on unstoppable mindset. And again, Maryl, thank you very much. I really value your time and appreciate all the time you're taking to be with us today. And I hope that this helps your business as well. Maryl Eva ** 1:01:47 Thank you, Michael, and thank you Alamo for sharing your dad Michael Hingson ** 1:01:55 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. 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