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This episode offers us the opportunity to meet a fascinating and thought-provoking person, Jessey Manison. Jessey has been an accomplished rider from the time she was five. Along the way she worked as an assistant therapeutic instructor and still, as she begins a new part of her career, has as much love of horses as ever.
We talk this week a lot about horses, people, and all in between. It is quite interesting to hear Jessey discuss horse behavior and how we can best interact with horses.
She owns her own horse, Mustard, and will be taking him with her when, later this year, she relocates from Fort Collins Colorado to Joplin Missouri where she will be entering medical school this fall.
Jessey comes by her interest in and advocacy for persons with disabilities naturally since, as a teenager, her older brother became paralyzed from the waist down.
This episode, like so many, is truly inspirational. I hope you enjoy listening to it. I think we all will learn from Jessey and I believe her stories and lessons will stick with us for quite sometime.
About the Guest:
Jessey grew up in a small grape farming town in Northwestern Pennsylvania where she discovered a love of horses at an early age. Her passion for working with individuals with disabilities started when she became a therapeutic riding assistant instructor, where she could share her love of horses with everyone. Jessey attended Colorado State University where she studied equine science and biomedical sciences before pursuing a master’s degree in medical science at the University of Kentucky. Through her college years she became the Vice President of Best Buddies International, CSU chapter, where she was responsible for planning events and creating connections between students and individuals living with IDD in the community. Both as an undergraduate and postgraduate, Jessey has worked as a study group leader, and development manager designing tutoring programs and helping tutors become the best educators they can be. Transitioning from tutoring, Jessey worked as an Allergy Technician until putting her advocacy passion to work as a youth advocate for The Arc of Larimer County. Jessey's journey in advocacy started at a young age when her brother suffered a spinal cord injury. In her free time, Jessey enjoys, swimming, fishing, skiing, spending time with her horse, exploring new places, and dreaming about Disney World.
Ways to connect with Jessey:
The Arc of Larimer County www.arclc.org
About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/
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Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, Greetings once again. I am Mike Hingson, your host for unstoppable mindset. Today, Jessey is our guest. And I want to tell you that she's a very interesting person, I'm going to really let her introduce herself. But she's a very interesting person in a lot of ways. She loves horses, she became a therapeutic riding instructor and all sorts of things. And it all eventually led to doing more to understand and work with the whole concept of diversity and especially inclusion. So Jessey, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you? Jessey Manison ** 01:59 Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am doing great. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on in and chat with you. And I love that you mentioned that I'm a horse person, because that's the hallmark of my personality. But yeah, I'm really excited to be here. So thanks for having me. Michael Hingson ** 02:15 Well, thank you for definitely being here. And let's start a little bit by you maybe telling us a little bit about you growing up and just sort of the beginnings of Jesse. Jessey Manison ** 02:27 Yes, absolutely. So I was born in a tiny town called Northeast Pennsylvania. It's in the northwestern part of the state. So that makes a lot of sense. Yes. Michael Hingson ** 02:39 And you mentioned it's a great farming town. Jessey Manison ** 02:42 It is it is a great farming town. So I grew up on a great farm. If any of your listeners are you are familiar with Welch's. So our region is one of the number one producers for Welch's grape. So the Welch's plant in my hometown, and a lot of my family friends great farming is their life. I started working on the great farm at about five to build that real life work ethic. Thank you, Mom and Dad. But yeah, so I grew up with graves. That's always been a big part of of my upbringing, and then decided to move to Colorado for undergrad, a little bit of a change, and kind of have been Colorado, Kentucky back to Colorado. And I actually have another move coming up soon. So that's sort of the the beginnings of where Jesse came from. Michael Hingson ** 03:29 So you're in Colorado today. Jessey Manison ** 03:32 Yes, yes. I live in Fort Collins, Colorado as of right now. Ah, and moving. Yes. So I actually just got accepted to medical school. So I'm going to be moving to Joplin, Missouri this summer. Michael Hingson ** 03:46 Wow. That's a big change. Jessey Manison ** 03:49 It is a big change. I don't actually know anyone there. I have no family there. It'll be a very big adjustment. But I'm excited to kind of try a new place because I, I like to explore. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 04:00 Well, tell us tell our listeners and I'm curious about this whole idea now of going to medical school. So you grew up. You were in Colorado, what did you get your degree in? Jessey Manison ** 04:11 So my undergrad was in equine science. So study of horses and biomedical sciences. So when I it's a long story, Michael, but when I when I started college, I knew that I always had loved horses. Like you said, I've been involved in horses for my whole life. And I loved animals. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do beyond that. So I started at CSU Colorado State University, they've got a really awesome equine program, and thought I was going to do a double major with wildlife biology and I was going to save the animals and all that. Turned out I was not as interested in that as I thought and kind of along the way I discovered physiology and neuroscience and I really love that so I started to think more along the lines of like Research and I think the brain is super cool. And I'll just kind of casually throw in, though. So my brother had a spinal cord injury when he was a teenager. So that kind of medicine had always been sort of, you know, close to home, but I hadn't really given much thought to pursuing anything related to that as a career. And so I got to my senior year of college and thought, I'm going to do research, I want to do neuroscience research. I want to solve all the world's mysteries and have the answers and so I went to University of Kentucky to do a PhD in neuroscience. And about four months in as I'm like sitting in the lab, crying sectioning rat spinal cords, I was like, this is not I can't do this. This is not what I want to do. This is not the play out. So had a nice little, you know, quarter life crisis and ended up doing a master's instead in medical science. And one thing led to another and I realized that I kind of wanted to be more on the healthcare side of things. And along the way, I, I now I'm just giving you my whole life story. I hope that's okay. It is. Along the way, I discovered that I really like working with people. And I'm really passionate about advocacy and working with individuals that have disabilities. And so I started working at the arc of Larimer County, which is an organization that promotes the civil rights of people that have IDD intellectual and developmental disabilities. And then realized I love the advocacy. I love teaching. I love working with people, but I think I want to be a doctor. So I'm going to now be starting that transition and hopefully be able to use some of the advocacy skills I learned along the way to help people in medicine. Michael Hingson ** 06:39 What are you going to do if they ask you to go off and dissect a rat again, because I'm sure you're gonna have to do some biology. They're Jessey Manison ** 06:45 gonna be like, Oh, my gosh, I thought I got away from this. I really did. One or two is okay. I just can't do it for a lifetime. Michael Hingson ** 06:53 Yeah. So you want to go back to people? Well, even so you have a great level of horses? How did that really start? And how has that impacted you? And what do you intend to do with all of that? Jessey Manison ** 07:06 Great question. Horses is like the start of my life, I would say, and it's also the end goal of my life. So I started writing at the age of five, I went to a friend's birthday party, and she had a barn and we got to do horse rides. And I came home and I was like, Mom, Dad, I want to ride horses. And they're like, why should you want to do what they say it's the best and worst thing they ever did was getting me involved kept me out of trouble. But man, it comes with a price tag for sure. So I started writing. And then the barn where I rode, also did therapeutic riding lessons. And so I got to start out as just a side Walker and helping at the barn cleaning, you know, doing doing barn chores, and really, really loved it, and ended up just kind of working my way up to be an insist unassisted therapeutic riding instructor there. And I started to realize the power the animals have on everyone, not only people that have disabilities, but all of us. And I really felt very passionate about that. And so I kind of set this long, long term goal, I want to open up a horse rescue. And eventually I want to do work with people that have different neurological disorders and do therapeutic writing long term. And so I think it'd be awesome to kind of use some of the horses from the horse rescue, retrain, and maybe have a program for at risk youth and people that have gone through trauma, because they can be a really amazing healing entity. So long term, I hope to open up a nonprofit that that will be able to do that and serve people through horses, because that's, that's my love. Michael Hingson ** 08:42 How will that impact going off and being a doctor? Jessey Manison ** 08:46 Great question. As you can tell, I like to do a lot of different things. So one or eight one of the big reasons I want to do medicine and do neurology is because of I just like super crazy stoked about the brain and the spinal cord. I think it's amazing. And therapeutic riding is really amazing for a lot of people that have traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, and then runs the gamut for people have IDD. So no, I really liked the idea of practicing medicine, but then kind of on the side running the nonprofit so I can work from more of the medicine physician angle, but then also get people connected to equine therapy, and help them to understand you know, biologically how that works and the benefits associated with that. So hopefully, I'll be able to, at some point be able to do to do both at the same time. We'll see how that that plan pans out. Michael Hingson ** 09:37 Well, horses are pretty bright creatures as I understand it. Jessey Manison ** 09:40 Yes, absolutely. People they get a bad rap. People think they're dumb and they're not there. They're very smart and they're very patient. And I mean, I just amazing. I am totally enamored with with horses. Michael Hingson ** 09:52 So how do they react or do they sense when you're they're dealing with someone who wants to ride them, and you're helping a person ride them who has a neurodivergent or an IDD kind of a situation? Do they sense that? Do Jessey Manison ** 10:11 you think? Absolutely. And I, and I will, I will die on that hill, I think that they certainly have a sense about that. And I, just from personal experience, I mean, I've seen horses where you get on a new ride, and they're a little bit more rambunctious and you know, a little high strung and aren't always listening. And then you put someone on that has those neurodivergent, or has an add, and all of a sudden, it's like a totally different horse, like, they can definitely sense that they're careful their understanding. And one of the really cool things is they kind of mirror and mimic people's emotions and body language, which is what makes them also a really amazing tool for healing and for trauma. And just for like a, from a psycho, psychological perspective, because they're just going to react to whatever you're kind of putting out into the environment, right. And so it's a really awesome way to kind of see what you're putting out there and how you're feeling and watching the model. And then watching connecting with the horse and giving you something to connect to, is incredible. So I am a huge believer that they sense people, they understand the motions, and even just me in general, I have a horse and I love him to death. He's almost 29. And I've had him since I was 10. And 100%. Like if I go to the barn, and I'm having a bad day, and I'm feeling super emotional. He is right there. Like he's comforting me, he's guarding me, if I sit in his stall, he's standing over me. And then normal day is not the most lovey dovey course, you know, he's like, I don't really touch me. I don't want anything to do with them. So I definitely think that they they can sense kind of the presence and who they're dealing with. Michael Hingson ** 11:48 I know that there has been a lot of discussion, and I've seen some reports about people who went through some sort of traumatic situation. And horses were used to try to help bring them out of whatever they were in and to teach them once again, that they can have power and that they can do better than they think. And one of the things I heard which really fascinated me was about someone who was taught that they could really control a horse mostly with their eyes, or just looking at the horse. Tell me about that kind of thing. Jessey Manison ** 12:24 Yeah, so I mean, if you think about horses, horses or flight animals, right, so they're used to running, they're used to assessing their surroundings for danger, and then running away from danger. And so one of the really cool things is you can use them to kind of get a better understanding of, of emotion, because what happens is, let's say you're you're in a field with a horse, or you're approaching a horse. If you're approaching them in a kind of aggressive, brisk, hostile manner, they're going to pick up on that and they're going to start to move away from you, or they're going to run away, or they're going to jerk their head up, or that's uncomfortable for them, they can sense that there's something there that's not comfortable. And then the same token when they do feel comfortable, and you start to, like connect with them and manipulate the horse based on where you're standing. And like you said, eye contact body position, you start to connect, and you actually can draw horses in that way as well, which is super amazing. So you can look up all kinds of videos on YouTubes, like natural horsemanship and stuff. But basically you start to work with the horse, you manipulate where you are in their space. And that kind of manipulates where they move. And eventually they start to trust you, they start to connect with you and respect you. And you can create that bond where they actually walk to you instead of walking away from you. And same thing goes for, you know, for human emotion, if you're in a really rough spot, and you're coming at them with a lot of energy, they're gonna pick up on that and something's going to be different. And that gives you an opportunity to reflect on where you're at and say like, Okay, what did I do that made this uncomfortable for both of us, and let's try a different technique. So it's really interesting how perceptive they are of their environments and the ways that you can kind of manipulate and and connect with them on that level. Michael Hingson ** 14:09 Do you think that they're sort of unique in the animal world? In terms of having that sense? Do you think other animals do or is there something that is really unusual about horses and doing that? Jessey Manison ** 14:24 That's a this is like getting into a philosophical question. I like this. I think that certain animals, I do think that certain animals so I feel like a lot of the ones that we use for therapy are like that. So dogs, I really believe that dogs also have kind of that sixth sense where they can read the surrounding and read threats and read emotion. That's why we use them as therapy, therapy animals because they are so amazing. I don't think that all of your flight animals have them. You know, there's a lot of animals out there that are our prey animals that I don't particularly think that sense but they sense that so I do feel like the horse is unique in that aspect. But I don't think that they're the only ones. I think I think there are other animals out there that probably could do and maybe some that we haven't explored yet. I don't know. But I do think they're, they're more unique than most animals, I would say, Yeah, well, Michael Hingson ** 15:16 one of the things that makes them interesting, of course, is their size. And so I don't know, whether they recognize how scary they are, to some people because of their size, or how much more empathetic they they tend to be even in spite of their size. But like dogs, you mentioned dogs, I think that dogs exhibit some of those same sorts of things. They do, understand, and consents fear. And they can understand and sense how people behave. I know, having now had a guide dogs, the dogs do sense a lot. And I think that that's important. But of course, horses a little bit different situation, partly because of their size, which means you can deal with them in a different way. But I think the sensations in the senses are still there. Jessey Manison ** 16:10 Absolutely. And I love what you said about them not knowing their size, because it's just so funny. I mean, you see this, this animal, it's 1200 pounds, and you've got a mound of dirt somewhere, and they think it's the end of the world. And they're like, oh my gosh, it's so scary. This is terrifying. It's like, really, you weigh 1200 pounds, you have to get over it. Michael Hingson ** 16:29 Do they know, Jessey Manison ** 16:32 the next day, they're gonna be just a surprise that it's there? Michael Hingson ** 16:34 Well, even so it, it certainly gives you a great, I was gonna say respect, but that's really not the right word. It gives you a great new sense and an opening to an understanding about a creature that is very different than you. And and it shows us why we really need to do a better job of understanding those who are different than us. Jessey Manison ** 17:03 Absolutely, absolutely. I just I think it's amazing that you can speak to two completely different languages. And yet that there can be a mutual understanding and respect. And you work with this animal and you are connected with them. And there are this amazing tool that you get to use and yet completely different from yourself, like you said, and I do think that reflects a lot of like the diversity of today and someone that different from you, or has different experiences or thinks a different way. And you can still connect with them, which is amazing. And that's, that's honestly one of the reasons why I love equine therapy, and just working with horses in general, is seeing the growth too. And like the limits that we tend to put on people. And I think that when you introduce them to horses, and you see that you're blown away by what they can accomplish, and how they change and their personality, their confidence goes through the roof, which is amazing. Michael Hingson ** 17:54 Yeah. Your brother is older or younger than you. Jessey Manison ** 17:59 He's older. He's three years older than I am. Michael Hingson ** 18:01 He's three years older. So you said he had an injury when he was in his teens. So you certainly remember that happening. And that had to have a big effect on you. Jessey Manison ** 18:12 Absolutely, yes, that's kind of where sort of all of this passion for for neuroscience and medicine and everything started. So he has a autoimmune disease called transverse myelitis. And basically, his own immune system started to attack his spinal cord. And it left him paralyzed from the waist down. And I definitely remember I was in middle school, I was early middle school when it happened. And it happened just in the blink of an eye. I remember we were watching. We were watching a movie, and we got up to get ready for bed and he went to grab some water and he said, My legs feel kind of funny. And like 30 seconds later, he just collapsed. And that was it. So super, He's amazing. He's such as dad, he's super inspiring. He actually walks with a cane now. So he's made amazing progress with recovery. But it did really shape kind of everything about my life. I think that when that happens, you know, even just getting back from the hospital, you look at our house, and it's like, how are we gonna get him inside? You know, our house was not handicap accessible at all was very old house over 100 years old, did not have any of the necessary, you know, accommodations or modifications that they would hope for. So just in that moment, being like, oh, yeah, we're gonna have to kind of rearrange everything was was big for us. But I'm really, really blessed in the fact that my family is amazingly supportive. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I took away from this is just how, how much you can mean to others and what that support looks like and also had to be very adaptable, which is something that I'm not always the best at, but I have learned that through this through this process, for sure. Michael Hingson ** 19:51 Does he or did he ever do any writing? Jessey Manison ** 19:54 He did a little bit so he used to ride he started actually, he rode for a little bit when I started Ride at the age of five. And it wasn't really his thing you know. So he took a few lessons and learned. And then once he was in the wheelchair, he would ride every once in a while. Because it is actually really awesome on your legs and everything, but it just never really was a passion for him. He was a swimmer, he loves to swim. Michael Hingson ** 20:18 That's okay. I personally have written in the past, but it's been a long time. So oh, maybe one of these days, I'll get to Colorado. And that's it. It's been a long time. But I I really enjoyed writing. I think my longest ride was about three hours. That was a December camp. And a whole bunch of us rode in Southern California and we had about a three hour ride. It was a lot of fun. I developed a blister on my hand and but I know better now. But it was a lot of fun. And I really appreciate horses. One of my favorite horror stories is my fifth guide, dog Roselle, who was the dog who was with me in the World Trade Center and I were, we're now up near Central Park, we were across from the entrance to Central Park. And somebody else was with me. And Roselle saw this big, huge dog across the street. least that's what she thought. And, and I got to go visit I got to come visit. So we started going over. And the closer we got, the slower she walked because the bigger this dog got, like, oh, I don't know. It's not Oh, no, this doesn't really look like a dog after all. Of course, it was one of the horses that pulls the carriages. And we go up to the guy. And and I explain what happened. And he said, Well, this is Charlie, and he's not necessarily the friendliest to animals. But actually, he and Roselle touched noses and actually had a good conversation and I got to talk to Charlie and was a lot of fun. And they got along very well. Jessey Manison ** 22:00 That's awesome. I love that story. Michael Hingson ** 22:03 But it was really funny to see this picture, Roselle and seeing Roselle slow. Steak, this might have been a mistake. Yeah, this might not really be what I should do. Oh, great. Jessey Manison ** 22:18 Am I allowed to ask you a question? Oh, sure. What goes into getting a guide dog? Like, do you have to train with it? Or does it come fully trained? Michael Hingson ** 22:28 Well, fully trained is sort of, of course a hard concept. And I would think it's true with dogs, horses or whatever, no matter how much you train, there's always more to do. So the dogs come trained in terms of knowing how to guide but yeah, you do have to work with them some. And the schools depending on how well you do or how much experience you have with guide dogs will either put you in a two week class for retrain people or a four week class for especially new folks. And the idea is to see first how well you bond with dog. And also to give the dog a chance to see how well they want to bond with you. And mostly that that goes pretty well. The trainer's do a lot of work ahead of time, a lot of homework to try to match dogs with the personality of the people who are coming in and they they meet with the people before they come or they they have people who will go out and meet with you and they learn about you. They see how you walk and so on. But even once you get to the school, they spend some time really studying you and so on. So they try to make the best match possible. Sometimes it doesn't work for one reason or another my my best story and I think I've told it here once is someone came to get a guide dog. And it looked like they were really doing well together. But the guy said I just don't think we're totally matching. I just think there's a personality conflict and the trainer said we don't see anything at all. But the trainers have worked with him for a while or her I don't remember whether they're male or female. And after about two weeks he's the guy said I just don't think that this is quite the fit. And they said Finally well if you feel uncomfortable, let's do something else with it. He ended up getting a different dog and it worked out really well and it wasn't anyone's fault. But that's one of the rare times I think that someone the potential user it just felt this absolute total disconnect somehow and no one could ever explain it but it was there when and I think that that's an interesting story. To remember that you always do have to make sure you match and and if you don't and if you feel uncomfortable then you need to deal with it because it'll come up somewhere along the line. And you don't want that to happen. But that but you do train but but you also when you're getting a guide dog, you learn to be a dog trainer or you should because You're going to constantly hone the dog's capabilities. And there are things that you need to do to make sure the dog is guiding properly. So it's a process. And so training, and that's why I said fully trained is sort of a nebulous thing, because you're always learning something new. And you're always going to be teaching the dog something new. And that's a good thing. Jessey Manison ** 25:21 I love that. That's so interesting. I thank you for answering my question. I've always wondered about how that works. But that makes sense. And you're totally correct. Just like with horses, you know, you're always working on something you're always fine tuning. And I like that the dogs kind of model, like they model relationships, you know, like, you're gonna have two really nice people. But that doesn't mean that you're going to connect for friendship or anything else. And that's, that's very interesting. I never thought about that. Yeah, well, it Michael Hingson ** 25:45 is it is there. And it is important to understand, I know that when I worked in the World Trade Center, I knew what I never wanted my dog to do was to get in the habit of going one way to go somewhere. And that's easy to happen, especially in even a complex of buildings, there aren't that many ways to go from point A to point B. But it was my job to know where to go and how to get there, it was the dog's job to make sure that we walk safely and get us there safely. It's not the dog's job to know where to go. Which is another way of saying a guide dog does not lead to guide dog guides, the guiding is all about keeping us safe. So I had to work hard to figure out different ways, or even just walking a long, roundabout way to get somewhere for both my fourth guy, dog Linnea and my fifth guy, dog Roselle to have them work effectively in the World Trade Center. So they wouldn't get into the habit of going just one way because that's that's a real serious problem that you don't want to do. And so that's what we did. And it worked out well, because the dogs did stay sharper because of that. And I'm sure that you deal with horses in sort of the same way. Jessey Manison ** 27:05 Absolutely, no, it really is very similar listening to you. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this makes so much sense based on what I know about horses, because it is the same, you know, if you're not giving instructions, and you're not being in charge, they're going to do what they want to do. And like one of the biggest things, especially with safety, because you're working with a huge animal is they need to respect that you're in charge, and they are going to respect what you want them to do. And so we talked about this a lot when we're writing, you know, if you're just riding around the horses going wherever he wants to, all of a sudden he thinks he's in charge. And his job is just to respond to your cues. And listen to what you want to do. So yeah, very similar. Michael Hingson ** 27:40 Do they naturally want you to be in charge. I know with dogs, dogs, really like a pack leader and like guide dogs really want to know what the rules are. And when they know what the rules are, then they are happier and they're sharper, and they do what they're supposed to do. And a lot of people constantly say to me, Oh, my dog could never behave like your dog. And and I always cringe when I hear that, because yes, they can. But you have to set the rules, and you have to be the one that's in charge, and they look to you to be in charge. Except that if you decide you're not going to be or you don't catch on to that, then they're gonna do what they want to do. Is that sort of the same with horses? Or are they a little bit more independent thinkers typically, then so you have to work harder at it? Jessey Manison ** 28:26 I would say so in a in a general sense. Yes. No, of course that you have certain horses and certain personalities that maybe are, are a little bit more of the dominant personality and a little bit less dominant. But in general, yes. Now, I mean, horses, like you said, they're herd animals, right? They want to have a pecking order, they want to be protected. They want to know that there's like some comfort there. And a perfect example of this is I took I took a cult training class when in my undergrad. So we see Colorado State University has an amazing quilt training breaking program, where a lot of the different branches from all over, they give their coats that have been unstarted to the program, and the students train them for a year. And I will forever remember after weeks and weeks of working with these, these young guys and girls, there was an instance where there was one one of the Colts in a pen by himself. And then the rest of the class we had ours that we were working with. And we were working on a flag. So one of this kind of skills here is when something moves back and forth, like teaching them different abilities to to chase the flag as if it were a cow cut the flag, kind of technical stuff, but it started moving and we were introducing them to movement and getting used to that. And the horse that was in the pen was freaking out like going crazy running around really, really stressed. And all the other horses that we had in our hands were totally calm. And the trainer looked at me like so what's the difference here? Like look around? What are you noticing? And it's exactly what you were saying? I mean, the horses that were We were standing beside them, they felt completely confident right in the situation and us and our ability and the horses by itself without anyone was alone. Exactly and freaking out. So absolutely, I completely second what you're saying about about dogs? Michael Hingson ** 30:16 Well, you have clearly worked a lot with with persons with disabilities, what's kind of maybe one overwhelming or strong experience that you had that really has affected you? Jessey Manison ** 30:29 Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's such a good question. Um, as I said, I'll relate it back to horses, because that's who I am, I promise I do have a life outside, of course, Michael Hingson ** 30:39 you're gonna be a doctor. Jessey Manison ** 30:42 But when I was working as an assistant, assistant instructor, I had a young lady that came in for lessons. And one of the cool things about the barn that I worked out was they had a mixed model where like, a lot of times for therapeutic writing, you'll see where the classes are just for individuals that have disabilities. And the woman that didn't our barn, she had both neurotypical and neurodivergent students working in writing and learning together, which is really awesome. And we had this one young lady come in, and she was probably maybe early 20s. And she had Down syndrome. And her mom was very, very nervous. And she said, you know, she has a really hard time, following directions, she has a really hard time being independent, she doesn't have a lot of competence. She's very uncoordinated. You know, she was really concerned about how she was going to do on a horse. And of course, we always start out with side walkers and, and everything. And it was just amazing. Because by the third lesson, she's writing completely independently. She's steering, I give her direction, she follows it perfectly. She's a whole different woman. And it was just awesome to see that. And it really just made me think about like, I think I mentioned this earlier, just the limits that we put both on ourselves as, and other people kind of automatically assuming Oh, well, they'll probably struggle with this, or oh, I don't know, you know, if I can do that. And she was amazing. And she was walk, trot canter riding by herself doing patterns, and her mom was like, this is, this is unreal. I've never seen anything like this with her. So that's probably one of the most impactful and that's kind of the reason why I love working with this community is just to see them grow and to see what everyone is capable of. And when you don't sell people short, just in general in life, it's amazing what they can accomplish, which is awesome. Michael Hingson ** 32:38 Why do you think that you were so successful with her? Jessey Manison ** 32:43 Why do I say, oh, my gosh, Michael Hingson ** 32:45 maybe that's the wrong term. But why do you think at all worked out? So well? Was it she just hadn't had no real experience? Or opportunity? Was there so much fear at home? And suddenly that went away? Or is it something different than that? Jessey Manison ** 32:59 I would say it's, I would say, it's partially that I think that, you know, we tend to shelter and we want to protect and, and everything. So I definitely think that maybe the independence factor. This was the first place where like, Mom and Dad weren't there for the lesson, it was just us and I didn't have any preconceived notions about what she was going to be able to do. I was just going to teach like, I would teach anyone and see where we go. And I think that really gives her gave her the opportunity to flourish, as well as just having that bond with an animal itself. I mean, she came in, she wants to brush it, she's telling him about her day, you know, just having that connection with something to push you into support you and make you feel confident, like you're not doing it alone, because you're doing it with a partner, even though your partner is a horse, a horse, I think that that plays into it too. Michael Hingson ** 33:46 Well, you know, animals, really, I think, unless there's something traumatic that happens, at least a lot of animals really do want to establish a relationship. And clearly it sounds like she sensed that. And she was looking for a way to establish a relationship with something and so they really hit it off. Jessey Manison ** 34:06 Yeah, absolutely. And you could tell just when she she would walk in, she runs over to the horse that she always likes to ride and he's nuzzle in her face. And you know, kind of given her a little kisses. And you can tell that the connection is mutual Mutual. You know, the love is both ways. Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Yeah. Which is, which is great. And I was going to ask you that, was there one horse that she had is kind of a favorite? Jessey Manison ** 34:27 Yes, yeah, there was one horse that she connected with. And we try and it's, you know, it's good to get out of your comfort zone. And every horse has its own quirks and its own personality and work with different ones. But there was definitely one that she she really connected with and, and love to work with. And so they had they had a stronger bond, I would say than a lot of the others, which was really awesome to see. And I also think that I think another reason she flourished is that she got to pick something that she wanted to do and they feel like this is something with people that have IDD We're kind of their systems already set up, right? And it's like, okay, well, these are your options. We have adaptive this or adaptive that and here's the day program and, and so these are your choices, this is what you're going to do. And in this instance, she got to pick something that she wanted to do. And she was interested in. And so I think that is another great point that she just really flourished because she was interested in it. Michael Hingson ** 35:22 Was this in Colorado? This was in Pennsylvania in Pennsylvania, so you don't see her anymore? Jessey Manison ** 35:27 I do not. Which is really that's the hardest part about moving it that that was a big a big letdown for me, but Michael Hingson ** 35:35 so are you moving horse to Missouri when you go? Jessey Manison ** 35:38 Yes, I am. He goes everywhere with me. He's my partner in crime. Oh, good. Michael Hingson ** 35:42 So he'll he'll go to class. Jessey Manison ** 35:45 After checking it just gonna hit him up right outside? I'm sure they'll be fine with that. Sure. Why not a Michael Hingson ** 35:53 little bit of growth in the way you do things never hurt anyone? Absolutely. Well, you mentioned being involved with the ark. Tell us about the Ark a little bit. Jessey Manison ** 36:03 Yeah, so the Ark is a nonprofit whose main goal is to fight for and promote the civil rights of individuals that have intellectual and developmental disabilities. So within that, it's a lot of advocacy work. And then every arc chapter is a little bit different. So here in Fort Collins, we have the arc of Larimer County. That's what the organization that I work for. And our big one is advocacy and education. That's our kind of our focus. And so we work with families that have kids that are in special education, if they have questions, or if there's an issue with the special education team, we work on the adult side of things to help with criminal justice, guardianship, housing, and really just help both be an advocate on the individual level for people and their needs. And then also systemically each of the states typically have a national chapter that works to help legislators understand pertinent laws and things like that pertaining to people that have IDD. So you'll also find some arcs, they do their service organization. So sometimes they'll have different day programs, every one is a little bit different. But the advocacy and education is really our focus. And so I am a huge advocate. So I work mostly in schools and with the younger kiddos in special education, and then kind of out getting them connected to outside resources and what they need to think about planning for Michael Hingson ** 37:24 the future. Why is it called Arc? Jessey Manison ** 37:27 That's a great question. And I have no idea. That's a really good question. I should go I'm gonna have to Google for that. I'm not sure I'll ask the rest of my team, if anyone knows why. Michael Hingson ** 37:38 Yeah, it would be interesting to learn learn that history and see where that goes. Yeah, so you're a youth advocate. Tell me a little bit more about how that works out and and what you do? And also, how are you going to transition that to going to Missouri? Yeah. So have you started looking into that? Jessey Manison ** 37:59 I have a little bit. And that's kind of why I like developing these skills. Because I do think it's actually really important to be an advocate for your patients. So I guess I'll start with the second part of the questions and similar to their, I, that's something that I feel like I've experienced with my brother is, there's a lot of really amazing smart doctors, but there's not a lot of them that are great advocates for their patients, or take the time to help them understand and teach and like really connect. And so that's been really important to me is developing those skills so that I can be the best doctor and the best advocate for patients that they they need to be. So Although who knows where my journey will go, I've learned life is a little bit crazy. You never really know what's going to happen. But I'm hoping that I'll work in that capacity as both like an educator in the medical community and then also just helping some of those skills working with people that have IDD. And this is something that med schools don't really address is working with that population. Because communication can be can look very different. And a lot of times the idea that, you know, that person is still a person, although seems very obvious. When you're in medicine, it's talking to a caregiver, it's not really putting the focus on your actual patient if they have a disability, and that's something that can be very frustrating. And I just remember a time where a doctor who I absolutely adore and respect and she's amazing. Learn something that she never learned in med school. So you go through this whole med school and they never talked about how to interact with people that have disabilities and how to treat and she had a young lady come in that was that had an interpreter that was deaf, so she had you know, sign language interpreter. And when she was interacting, she would look at the interpreter and say can you ask her? This? Can you ask her this? Instead of understanding that that interpreter is just you know, a means to get information you can still use that first person and every thing. And so just skills like that you again, like if you have a kiddo in the emergency room that has autism, that's going to be a very loud overstimulating environment, like how do we provide the best care to those patients, and I hope some of the things that I've learned in this job will transfer. And then as far as my, you know, day to day, so one of the big things I do is education, education and support for parents of kids that have IDD, so a lot of them will come to us, and they've only recently got a diagnosis or they're noticing deficits, and they have no idea where to start. So we'll go through the whole IEP process, how to get special education, what that looks like, and then how to get connected with resources like Community Center boards, which are kind of the hub for, for providing funding for waivers and things, services and supports for those kids. We do different workshops, we also have a podcast. So our podcast is kind of an educational podcast. It's called Disability discussions with ark of Larimer County, and we talk about all kinds of things like SSI and different alternative therapies and resources in the community. So that's a big portion as well. And then this the other on the other side of things is really that direct advocacy where a lot of parents will come to us because something in the IEP isn't being followed, or they don't feel like their kiddo was getting the services that they need in school. And I'll kind of come in as part of that team to advocate for that kiddos needs and say, you know, these are changes that we need to make, or we need to look at this and kind of problem solve with them. Michael Hingson ** 41:30 Yeah, it's you, you have brought up a whole lot of things that are interesting to talk about. So let me go back to the to the doctor thing a little bit, I fully understand what you're saying about the doctors are used to talking to caregivers, they won't, they won't talk to patients, and they don't understand a lot about especially disabilities. I had a doctor once I went in, to adopt gemologists. And I went in with an ice situation, just a lot of pain. And when it turned out it was glaucoma. But when I was talking to the doctor, all he would say to me is your eyes are mad at you. Now this is a this is a man he's talking to who has a master's degree in physics. And he's saying your eyes are mad at you. And, you know, I reacted to that and said, Look, fella, right, I'm not what I'm doing, I know what I'm doing. And if you're gonna continue to operate that way, then we might as well just stop right now. And the bottom line is he really didn't know how to deal with that. And he really, he didn't walk out, right immediately. But he did soon after that. But the problem is that all too often, it comes down to they're not being taught. They're, they're not being educated. I mean, my parents were told this is now 73 years ago, but my parents were told that I should be put in a home because no blind child could ever grow up to amount to anything in society. And I hear too many stories about that, even today, we haven't really progressed. And there are so many ways that we haven't progressed. And yes, we have progressed in some ways, but attitudinally, where we're still lagging far behind where we ought to be. And so I really applaud what you're doing. And I hope that you'll be able to be a good advocate and helping to teach others because of your own experiences and your own convictions. Jessey Manison ** 43:36 Thank you. I hope so too. And I really do think that the you know, what you said is people just don't know. And I think at the beginning, I think there's a little bit of fear associated, right? Like you're trained and you have so much education, but if you've never worked with anyone that has IDD, and then you're coming in to provide care, it can be uncomfortable, right? Like you, you don't want to say the wrong thing. You don't want to do the wrong thing. You you are uncomfortable sitting in that situation. And I have to stop, like we have to get out of that mindset and relate that they're the patient first. But I do think you know, as you said, it is education and like how do I do this? Okay, well, let's talk about it. Like let's have a conversation in the medical community about what this looks like and giving physicians those skills so that they we can change that stigma and change the idea that that they can't be independent and self advocate and care for themselves. And so I like what you said about the education piece, and I really hope fingers crossed, I can make some sort of small, small impact in that way. Michael Hingson ** 44:34 I hope we'll hear that you have and that you do. I know it's not just IDD, it is really any of us who are different in any way. The problem is some things are we referred to and read and respected as being different and others aren't. You don't hear people pitying individuals who are left handed even though most people are right handed. You there are some some things you don't tend to see But when you find a person who has a neuro divergent situation, or who has some sort of other intellectual challenge, or who has physical disability as such, we tend to be treated differently. Because people think we're different. Rather than recognizing that maybe the difference is a lot more on our own mind than really exists. Like, I hear the term and in fact, I saw this morning, in a letter an email that I received, somebody was asking about being differently abled, which is a horribly disgusting term. Because we're not differently abled, we may use different technologies, we may do things in a different way to accomplish the task. But very frankly, who does it right? And the whole idea of differently abled is horrible, you're still distinguishing, you're still creating a difference where it doesn't need to be rather than creating an understanding and going, alright, so you don't see it. You're going to use other technologies, but that doesn't make you different. Any more than anybody else? Jessey Manison ** 46:10 Absolutely, no, I love that you bring that up. Because that is your this conversation is actually reminding me a conversation that I have with my brother. And I know that everyone's thoughts and opinions and feelings on terms and you know, how you refer to this type of community and strengths and weaknesses and disabilities is is very different and individual, but it just reminds me of a conversation that I had with him about differently abled, and that same thing, and he was kind of saying the same thing. He's like, I just don't understand why, you know, it's making it a bigger deal than what it is like, I don't need a special term, I just I have a handicap or I have a disability, I'm still a person, we don't have to focus on putting me of the person first. I already am a person that's not necessary, you know, like, and just kind of owning that, yeah, I have a disability. So what and I don't need any special term to refer to that. So I just think that's interesting, because he had a similar perspective on the differently abled. Michael Hingson ** 47:05 So here's a question, what's your disability? Jessey Manison ** 47:08 Oh, what's my disability, organization, focus, a lot of different things. Michael Hingson ** 47:17 But are those disabilities in the minds of most people as opposed to, which also may not be viewed as being a disability, but it is, one of your biggest disabilities is your light dependent. And I've said this many times on the podcast before, what happens when the power goes out, and you're in a room somewhere, the first thing you do is run to try to find or reach out and try to find your phone to turn on a flashlight, or you pan in on a flashlight, or you panic. And I actually saw that a couple of weeks ago in a building where the power went out. The bottom line is that light dependency got covered up when Thomas Edison and other people created the light bulb. But it doesn't change the fact that the disability is still there. It's just that mostly, you don't have to deal with it. Because technology has come along so far. That light is all around us. There's a really interesting Isaac Asimov story that I read. And I'm cannot remember the name of it. And it's one of my favorite ones. But it's a story about this planet. And I think there's a it's, it's orbiting a binary star. And so only once every 2000 years, does it get completely dark. And when it gets completely dark, everyone goes crazy. And they and the story is around a time when it's about to happen. And there are some scientists who think they understand this a little bit more, and they're in a room. And the stars both winked out, because now the planets and the stars and everything are aligned such that there's no light coming to the planet. And suddenly, they see all the other stars in the universe, and everyone's going crazy. And usually, every 2000 years, everything and civilization is destroyed, and they start all over. And this ends with them seeing the stars, but you don't know what's going to happen when the light comes back on that is the star the two planets or the two stars come out in the morning. But it's just interesting. The reality is that light dependence is there. And it is still as much a disability, just that mostly you got to cover it up because we've done so much to make sure you have light. Jessey Manison ** 49:40 Right? Absolutely. You've just kind of we've just adapted to this world and what that's like the new normal even though it doesn't have to be the normal. That's interesting. I like that story. Michael Hingson ** 49:51 Yeah, I wish I could remember it. I can't remember the title. I first heard it on an old radio show called x minus one I collect old radios. goes, but I've read the story since it's a fascinating concept. However, I'm gonna have to find it. And I'll have to let you know what it is. Please do. Yeah, I would love that. And but it is a it's a it's a fascinating concept. But the reality is light dependence is just as much a disability as light independence. And you know, the problem for us is that I'm referred to as blind or visually impaired, and that's as bad of a term visually impaired as differently abled. Because visually, I'm not different simply because I happen to be blind, at least mostly, I'm not. But the other part about it is impaired. Why do I need to be equated with someone who can see, it's like people who are deaf, I hate the term hearing impaired, and they prefer hard of hearing. And same thing with blindness, blind or low vision makes a lot more sense. And it gets rid of a lot of the stigma if we would learn but just to do that. Jessey Manison ** 51:01 Yes. All Absolutely. It's, it's all just about perspective, and like understanding. Yeah, and I think a lot of a lot of those terms come from the attempt to, to try and be more inclusive, or at least what we think inclusive is without actually talking to people that are blind, or, Michael Hingson ** 51:24 or have any, or who have any major difference like that. Exactly, exactly. What do you want people to know about arc? For you and arc International, or arc national? Jessey Manison ** 51:36 Oh, my gosh, um, well, this is a this is an ongoing joke that we have here at the arc of Larimer County. So the arcs in Colorado, there is something called the arc thrift stores. So the first thing that I should tell people is we're not the thrift store. Okay, we are totally different. So the thrift store funds here in Colorado, a lot of our organization, but it's funny, because people will bring things to like, drop off at the Art thrift stores to our office, and we're like, Nope, we're not them. So from a Colorado perspective, we're not the thrift stores. But I would say just in general, there's so many ways to get involved. And if you're interested in any of this, or if you're someone that has a disability, or a parent of someone that has a disability or caregiver, reach out, because we really are all over. And we provide, you know, amazing education, workshops, advocacy. So if this is something that you're passionate about, definitely, definitely reach out and check out our podcast if you're interested in learning about Colorado stuff. But yeah, I think there's just something for everyone. And I would encourage everyone to look up their local art chapter if they have any type of questions or concerns about that, that World War? Michael Hingson ** 52:44 Well, I think it's important that we learn about dealing with those things that are different than us. And those people who are and Ark serves a lot of people and does it in very good ways. And so I'm glad that we had a chance to have this discussion. The question I would ask you is, so for you personally. You've had a lot of personal experiences, and you've learned some things, what's probably the most important thing that you think you've learned in life? And how are your personal experiences do you think going to shape you going forward more than they have already? Hmm, Jessey Manison ** 53:20 I would say, I would say the most important lesson is just that life does not always go as planned. And that's okay. And that's, it seems like a very basic thing. But I'm a, I'm a hugely type a planner, you know, I've got the de plan, I've got the weak plan, I've got the month plan, and I've got the 10 year plan, and everything needs to go according to plan, or we're completely off the rails and life is a mess. And so starting from the age of, you know, 12, when things did not go as planned, all the way up through grad school did not go as planned. I've just really learned that some of the best things and the best opportunities come from that. And so, you know, when things aren't going according to plan, it can be very stressful and scary, but I do feel like the best things in my life have have come from the experiences that didn't go as planned and the failures and the the changes. So that would definitely be something that has has shaped me and I hope to continue to learn that you know, you have to be flexible. And then I think just going forward, all of these experiences have just taught me how important family and relationships and supporting each other, whether that's friends, family community, how important that is. And I really hope that I can give back as I as I go through my journey. I think that just treating people like people, which seems so basic, but it's not always there. And being a good day, like I said, being a good advocate for my patients and helping to helping to explain I think people always they overlook the why and that's another thing that I really I really that draws me to medicine is like just can't count how many times being in a doctor's office, the doctor will say like, Oh, we're going to do this and this and this. And none of it's person centered. None of it, you didn't explain like, Okay, well, why? Why are we doing this? Right? Like you need to this is this is his health or my health and, and I think that this is something just to be said, for everyone. You should be the person centered. And so when you have individuals that have disabilities, that, you know, a lot of times because they get overlooked, their opinions get overlooked, they should be at the center, you know, we need to empower that. And so I hope that I can take, take all of that and understanding how important and how stressful those situations can be and how to be a good physician and just a good community member. Michael Hingson ** 55:44 Nothing wrong with being flexible. It's good to have a plan but also know when to change it. Jessey Manison ** 55:50 I'm trying I would be lying if I said that, like yeah, I'm really good at that now. No, no terrible Michael Hingson ** 55:57 experience. Yeah, there you go. If people want to learn more about you or learn more about Ark and and so on, how can they do that? Jessey Manison ** 56:06 Yeah, absolutely. So there's a couple different ways you're welcome to email me directly. And so I don't know should I give my email I can give my email. So J Manison, ma n i s o n at ARC llc.org. Also a quick Google search the arc of Larimer County or if you look up, the arc national so let's say that you're not in Larimer County. I know, Michael, your podcast goes out everywhere. So if you're looking to get connected with resources, just in general, quick search for the Ark national. And it will come up with all the different chapters you put in your zip code, and it'll tell you where the closest one is. So that's also another really great way to to find us. You can also if you're looking for our chapter, Ark of Larimer County, it'll come right up. Michael Hingson ** 56:52 Well, here's a challenge for you. Once you get to Joplin, and you're there for a while and you want to talk about it. We want to have you back on to hear about your adventures and how things are going. And, gosh, Jessey Manison ** 57:05 I don't know that people are going to be that interested, Michael, I'm flattered, but I'm not that interesting of a person. Michael Hingson ** 57:09 See, we'll see. We'll come up with questions because you're gonna have to come up with more questions again. Jessey Manison ** 57:15 Okay, perfect. I'll do I will touch base once I'm in medical school, drowning and research. You'll need a break. Exactly. I'll be crying. Okay, can Michael Hingson ** 57:23 I come on the podcast? Please? No important question. What's your horse's name? Is he was mustard. Mustard. Okay. Jessey Manison ** 57:31 He's a yellowy kind of color. He's called a Palomino. He's a yellowy color. So it works. Michael Hingson ** 57:36 My colleague when we wrote thunder dog Susie flora, he has a horse called Stetson. Jessey Manison ** 57:41 Oh, cute. I love that. That's a super key day. I am my dad. He's, you know, typical Dad Dad puns. So growing up for the last, you know, 16 years. His go to is always no one can catch up to mustard. So I thought I'd let me share that out with the people Michael Hingson ** 58:01 can catch up to mustard. Right? Well, he may or may not may or may not be able to get away with that. But we'll see. I want to thank you for joining us and being here with us and having the chance to make this happen. This has been a lot of fun. Yes. Jessey Manison ** 58:23 Thank you so much for having me. I'll be honest, I was a little bit nervous. I'm not usually on the like the interviewee side of things. And you made it just feel like a conversation and storytelling. So I appreciate the opportunity. It's been great. Michael Hingson ** 58:37 Well, if you ever do a podcast and need someone, let us know. It'd be fun to come and compare notes and take the other side. Jessey Manison ** 58:43 I would love that I will definitely reach out and hit you up with that. Michael Hingson ** 58:47 Well, I hope you've enjoyed listening. And I hope that you'll let us know what you think email Jessie, let her know. And I'd like to hear what you think about all of this horsing around overhead too. And this discussion, feel free to email me at Michael hi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or visit our podcast page www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate the ratings. We appreciate your comments and your thoughts. And for you listening and Jesse you as well. If you know of anyone else or can think of anyone else down the line that you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Please let us know because we're always looking for more guests. And anyone who has suggested guests knows that we take that very seriously. We love to have people on but again, Jessey for you. Thanks for being here. And thanks for being a part of this with us. Thank you so much. **Michael Hingson ** 59:53 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. 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