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Meet Stacy Wells. Stacy has worked throughout her adult life to promote diversity and equity especially concerning addressing race issues in America. Among other accomplishments, she is the co-creator and facilitator of Write On Race to Be Right on Race, (WOR). Want to know more, I hope you will listen to this episode. Clearly, Stacy’s teaching and communications skills appear for us. She is a good and engaging storyteller both about her personal life as well as the work she continues to do. During this episode, I had the opportunity to steer our conversation a bit away from race to a discussion concerning the concept of disabilities and how diversity has left out so many in America and throughout the world. Stacy, in addition to teaching and telling stories, shows that she has a curious mind that is willing to absorb new ideas and concepts. This interview was the most fun I think for both Stacy and me. I hope you enjoy it as well. About the Guest: Stacy Wells is a person-centered educator and equity thought leader with a variety of professional experiences, including DEI leadership in the public and private sector; public school teacher and district wide administrator; higher education faculty, and consultant. Her areas of specialty include leadership development and coaching embedded in cultural competence, organizational alignment with DEI strategies, community development to advance racial justice, curriculum writing, and teacher preparation. She is the co-creator and facilitator of WRITE On RACE To Be RIGHT On RACE (WOR) Community Engagement series and co-author of the WRITE on RACE to be RIGHT on RACE: Resource Journaling Guide. Stacy is currently the Director of Communications for Mankato Area Public Schools. She earned her B.A. in Broadcast Journalism from Drake University, and an M.A. in Curriculum and Instruction and education policy from the University of St. Thomas. Stacy currently resides with her family in Minneapolis, MN. She began her professional career working in broadcast production and occasionally appearing on-air. Her interest in working with young people begin while she was employed at the local public television station. Stacy was a part of creating and airing a new teen centered talk show entitled, “Don’t Believe the Hype.” This was an opportunity for young people to get television production training and mentorship as well as share their opinions about current events. This experience was part of the reason she decided to transition her career into education. She taught elementary and middle school in Minneapolis Public Schools for 5 years. Although she left the classroom, she decided to stay in education by moving into teacher preparation and was an adjunct professor at several twin cities area colleges and universities. Her focus was and continues to be, helping educators learn to meet the needs of all students. Of particular importance is creating better educational experiences for Black children, which is where Minnesota and the nation continues to see the biggest gap. Her professional career also includes leading diversity, equity, inclusion, and racial justice work for school districts and other organizations as well as her consulting work across the state and nationally. As a consultant Stacy has worked with several organizations to advance their diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts. Paramount to this is the WRITE on RACE effort. Participants are challenged to critically journal about race and the impact it has on their lives. History and current events are used to consider the challenging dynamics of race, racism, white privilege, and white supremacy. The structure helps participants to be in relationship across race, practicing how to talk about the issues that we often try to avoid. There are currently WOR cohorts being created across Minnesota. All the most important things about Stacy are from the loving upbringing her parents provided her and her four older brothers. Stacy believes family is very important. Her mother bravely fought cancer for three years before passing away in August of 2018. Her life and death continue to have a very profound impact on Stacy. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! 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Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 Well, Hi, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson. So wherever you are, thanks for being here. And thanks for listening to us. Or watching us if you're observing it on YouTube. Today, we get to talk to Stacy Wells. And Stacy has a lot of experience in the Diversity Equity and Inclusion world and is the CO creator and very involved in a process called right on race to be right on race. The first right is with a W and the second one is right is an ri ght. We're going to learn about that. So I'm not going to give much away or talk about it because I think it'll be more fun for Stacey to do that. least that's the plan. Right, Stacy? That's all right. So welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you? Stacy Wells 02:08 Thank you so much, Michael. I'm doing well. Yeah, thank you. Great. Michael Hingson 02:11 Well, let's start like, as I always like to do tell me a little about your growing up and some of that kind of stuff. So let's start at the beginning as they say, Stacy Wells 02:22 yes. So born and raised in Minneapolis. On the south side, some people will know that reference. I, my parents had five children, four boys, and then a girl. And they told me the story so many times of how when my mom was pregnant, the the fifth and final time that the doctor said it's probably going to be a girl and she did not believe it. And so whenever my dad did, he was like, Yes, this is this is it, and they would go shopping and he'd put in girls clothes, or you know, at that time, it was all about like pink and yellow for girls. And my mom would promptly take it out of the basket and put in, you know, boy sorts of things because she was like, I don't believe it. It's not gonna happen, I don't believe. And then there was. So really just sort of a, I guess, fun, normal upbringing. Often, I tried to hang out with my brothers. And they were like, no, go away. Not because they didn't love me, but because, you know, they were boys. And they were doing what they thought were boy things and there's, you know, between myself and my brother, who's the closest there's about two and a half years, but for him he he was still big brother. And so that was I was just always a little sister. So Michael Hingson 03:44 you had four brothers to protect you. Stacy Wells 03:47 Exactly. Yes. And that they did and still do. Michael Hingson 03:52 They still do. Stacy Wells 03:54 You know, even when I didn't want them to write. But yeah, it was funny. It's funny because I actually have a lot of had a lot of boys growing up in my family. So my mom was an only child. And then my dad didn't have any sisters. He had five brothers. And there was only one other girl like a girl cousin in that family. And so I just there was so many boys all the time that whenever you know I was with, say my grandpa, my dad's father. It was very special because he was always dealing with boys from his sons to his other to his grandsons. And then he finally got a granddaughter. So that was that was exciting for him. Michael Hingson 04:40 But he knew to spoil Stacy Wells 04:42 Exactly, yes. So yeah, I went to college in Atlanta to Spelman College, which is an HBCU. It's an all female college. I went there for a year and then I decided to transfer to Drake University which is an Iowa and And Michael Hingson 05:00 then where you were when were you at Drake? Stacy Wells 05:03 I was at Drake from Oh, goodness, let me let me thank you. So I graduated from high school in 86. And so I was at Spelman 8687. And then Drake 87 to 90, Michael Hingson 05:16 I worked on a project for the National Federation of the Blind in starting in 1976. But in 1977, as part of it, I spent several months at the Iowa Commission for the Blind. And I remember there was some sort of parade that went down the street and a lot of it was related to Drake University. So I'm, I know about Drake. Okay. Stacy Wells 05:39 You know, if it was in the spring, and in April, it was maybe related to Drake Relays. That was a big twin. It was, yep. So it's still every year they have the relays. And in the Midwest, I think it's one of the only places that has a big track and field event that rivals like the Penn relays or something. But it draws people from around the country, but particularly in the Upper Midwest, to the relays every year in April. So it's always a good time for students on campus, but also for guests. So Michael Hingson 06:10 yeah, well, I very much enjoyed the the parade that morning was around 10 o'clock or so I was staying in a hotel on Fourth Street. And all of a sudden, I heard a band outside. So I went downstairs and learned that what was going on and just stood there and watched it for about a half hour 45 minutes until it was over. But it was a lot of fun. Stacy Wells 06:34 Oh, yeah. Yep. Gotta love afraid. Michael Hingson 06:38 Oh, absolutely. So for you growing up, what's your favorite childhood memory, you must have lots of fond memories, and maybe that aren't so much with Big Brothers, but nevertheless. Stacy Wells 06:51 So you know, one of my I have two really fond memories. So one is it's really simple. I just, we just grew up in a house of music. So not not like anyone playing and I played instruments, but but my, my mom really liked music. So we all did. And so she would, you know, play albums at that time. And we might be in the backyard or sitting we lived on a corner. And so we had steps on the side of the house, technically, and then of course, the front. And we use the side door more often, which came in into the kitchen. And then like you went to the left and to the kitchen into the right into like a formal dining room. So anyways, we would maybe sit on the side steps more more than we would the front. But you could hear the music outside. And so just kind of sitting out there watching the neighbors go past and if my dad was maybe outside doing some yard work, or if we were, you know, if they were cooking in the backyard, people, you know, my parents were really established in the neighborhood. And so they just knew everybody in it. At that time, people lived in that neighborhood for a long time and really got to know one another. So it was just fun to say hi to people and people would stop by and see what was happening. And especially in this not in the winter. But in the summer in the in the spring. It was just a kind of I think for the spring it kind of marked sort of the summer ritual of just being outside and kind of hanging out. But the other thing is that I really remember fondly I mentioned my my grandpa's already my dad's father. And every weekend, either Saturday or Sunday, he would either pick me up or my parents would drop me off and I'd spend the entire day at his house. And part of that time he might be he loved westerns and he loves baseball. So he might be watching a baseball game or watching a Western or reading a restaurant Western. And I'd be sitting at this I so vividly remember this sitting at a desk and pretending that I was doing something right. So we had like notepads and staples and tape and all this. And I would just be I could sit at that desk for hours and write and doodle and just kind of be there. But before and then his friend because my grandmother did my my grandfather's so and my father from Oklahoma. And when my grandfather moved to Minnesota to take a job at General Mills, my grandmother was like, I'm not moving to Minnesota, she had no interest whatsoever. So she stayed in Oklahoma. And he moved up here and his sons eventually followed him for school. And but anyways, a friend of his would, she'd come by and she'd make sugar cookies were sort of her specialty. So sometimes I help her with that. Or sometimes she just bring them by. But before our time together was done. We'd always stop by the store and I would get a new Barbie something so it could be a girl. It could be some doll clothes. It could be a Barbie house. You know, it just depended on the weekend and so I had all the Barbie stuff as you can imagine. But that was just you know, it's such a fond memory. I'm not not so much because of we, because we went in and bought the Barbie stuff, but because I just had that time with him every almost every weekend unless we were on vacation or he was busy. And so I also got to meet other relatives, they would come by and see him. And so I got to know my family and just a different way, I think. So those are a couple of things that I just remember so fondly, and they all really kind of revolve around family, right? And just spending that time. So I don't, you know, I don't know, if you spent a lot of time with, you know, either grandparents or, you know, if you have siblings, if you have those kinds of memories about growing up, but it was just like so carefree when I think about it. Michael Hingson 10:46 Some of those memories, not so much with grandparents. But I had a brother and my parents and so on, of course, here's the real burning question. Did your grandfather convinced you to like Westerns or baseball? Stacy Wells 10:58 Oh, well, you know, kind of baseball because we would also, he also liked to go to the games occasionally. And so I would I kind of liked going to the games, I'm pretty sure that now in hindsight, that was just because of the the caramel corn. Yeah, but you know, I got to learn the game a little bit. And the usually if we went to a game, it was with maybe a couple of my brothers or a couple of my cousins or something. So just kind of hanging out with them. Westerns not as much as much, no, and my dad like them too. But you know, what I did get another thing I got from him was just the joy of reading, because well into his you know, he died when he was 80. I think 86. He, he would read every day. And so I mean, I read a lot at home, but I'd always bring a book with me over there or might just read something he had like, the Farmers Almanac and I was just like, so curious about this Farmers Almanac. And so just the joy of reading, or like casual reading, I think that some of that was probably instilled with but because of the time that I spent with him, Michael Hingson 12:08 well, that, you know, reading is extremely important. And I very much value reading, I do a lot of listening. But I also read books in braille. And there's a difference between those two techniques, because Braille is really like you're reading, whereas we both can listen to audiobooks, which, in a sense, is a little bit less of a dimension, because you're viewing it through the interpretation of the narrator, but still, just having access to a lot of books is extremely important. Yes, and valuing what, what people say, exactly. And the reality is, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, because a lot of writers of fiction are really trying to put their life experiences into the fiction that they write. And there are so many incredible fiction writers that, that do some things that we should value too. But both fiction and nonfiction are important. Stacy Wells 13:12 I think that that fiction piece, you know, sort of that ability to escape to another world, right? is really important. But I think about there's just so much wonderful children's literature that's out. Yes. Right. Just not only the illustrations, but the storytelling and the creativity that is in them. I I have a daughter who's now 18 But that was one of our favorite things was in my my mom did this with my siblings and myself was going to the library at least once a week. And then also buying books, but just to even look at the, you know, picture books and read them and just kind of then create an another story off of what we read in a book. So yeah, that was that's always fun. Michael Hingson 14:05 So when you went to college, what did you major in? Stacy Wells 14:08 So when I went to Spelman, I majored in English. And you know, it was so I applied to a few schools in Spelman and Drake word schools that I applied to and gotten accepted to. But one of the reasons that I chose Spelman honestly was less about the major but about the experience to be at historically black college and university and honestly to be in a all girl Women's Environment. So for me, those two things were really they turned out to be very critical to who I am as a person now even though I was only there for a year. It was just so affirming and empowering. And I met some really wonderful people. So my major there was English, but ultimately I really wanted to major in communications broadcast journalism. And so that's how I ended up at Drake. I did transfer after that first year and end up at Drake. And, you know, sometimes in hindsight, I'm like, Oh, maybe I should have stayed at Spelman, but I can't undo that. So I'm glad for the I'm really grateful for the experience. But Drake was great, too. I met there two of my very best friends to this day, and had a really fun and fun time and a great education. So I can't say that I love living in Iowa, but it was okay. And it wasn't as difficult for me as it was some for some because it was the Midwest again. And so I was more familiar with it than some people that came to that campus. So But Drake is a great school so Spelman, so I feel honored to be alumni of both. And then I did my masters work here in the Twin Cities at the University of St. Thomas. So Michael Hingson 15:55 moved around well, is was Drake, a better school or a school with a more established broadcast journalism program? Was that the reason? Stacy Wells 16:05 Yeah, they have a College of Journalism. And so I was able to really, you know, still take some other courses, because of liberal arts, but really focus on that broadcast journalism piece and do some internships, and then a radio studio, I was a DJ for a semester. That's pretty cool. And a late night show that did more kind of like slow music, and that was really fun, and was able to work on some studio productions, and all of those sorts of things. So got some really great experiences being there. Michael Hingson 16:40 So what did you do after you graduated them from Drake? And then did you go straight into masters? Stacy Wells 16:47 I didn't, I went to work. I worked at a television studio here in the Twin Cities, our local PBS station. And I worked on a program called Newton's apple, if you're familiar with that, it's a science program, mostly for young people. And so I was doing more production sorts of things. But every once in a while, they needed some on screen talent, and in particular, folks color and so I would do some of the onscreen things just to be like an extra in an experiment, or do some things like that, which was was kind of fun, too. And did that for a few years. And then I did. So that was more truly, you know, broadcast journalism. And then I did some things in marketing and promotion. All of which I enjoyed. But what I realized is one, that, you know, I just I really enjoy school and learning. And so I wanted to pursue an advanced degree. And when I looked at what that would be for related to communications, technically, there really isn't anything I could have done, you know, maybe something in marketing, like an MBA, I didn't really have any interest in that. I'm a really purpose driven sort of person, I realized. And so I want the work that I do to have a greater impact bigger than me, and it's not about me being you know, sort of famous or the center of attention, I just really want to make the world a better place and sort of leave an imprint in that way. And so, I did some research and kind of looked around. And another thing I was always interested in was teaching just because I really enjoy young people. One of the other things I did when I was at the Public TV station was working on a new program with young people specifically. And so I think that that really got me excited about teaching and so that's the direction I went to next I was accepted into a program for an alternative teaching license. And then I finished my master's after that, so I got my teaching license and taught for five years and then kind of started into my down the path of my career of education and diversity inclusion and equity work and in have come full circle to be working back and communications but within a K 12 system. So kind of, you know, putting those things together and I still do a lot of diversity, equity and inclusion work as a consultant. So I feel like I you know, have been able to kind of finesse a lot of my experience. And you know, I guess my education into doing some professional work that I enjoy. Michael Hingson 19:31 It's fun when you can bring your experiences back in and fit into what you're doing. So you get to not be a round peg in a square hole. You either change the shape of the hole or the change the shape of the peg, but you make it work. Stacy Wells 19:44 Exactly. And you know, I just what I found is that I'm not and for, for better or for worse, especially as I get older. I'm not really afraid to learn something new and kind of try something different, maybe even a little bit of reinvent In short of myself, like, I feel like that's just growth. And as long as it's logical, and it sort of builds on what I already know, then I'm like, Well, why not? So I'm willing to, I'm pretty good with like transition and change. And so I'm willing to try out new things. And I know for some people, that's really scary. And it can be a little scary. But I, I feel like if I don't, then I might always wonder why, you know, what about? So I take sort of calculated risks, I guess, still? Michael Hingson 20:35 Well, how did you get to the point of doing right on race to be right on race? Where did that come from? I'd love to learn more about the whole program and what that's all about. Stacy Wells 20:45 Yeah. Well, so I, that I do that work with a colleague, a partner. And we had just met, when I was working at one of the school districts leading the equity work there, someone had connected us, for me to come out and speak to a group that he was facilitating. And so we be became friends and, you know, discovered that a lot of the work that we did was very similar. And we had similar sort of passions around doing the work and complementary styles. And so we started doing that work together, kind of consulting work going, in particular to school districts. And so at the time, he was actually in Mankato. His name was bukata. Hayes, and living there and working there. And I was in the Twin Cities. But we would do a lot of work out in, you know, more rural or outstate, Minnesota, but also in the cities. So after doing several, a couple of years in several different facilitation sessions with businesses and schools, we were thinking about, you know, what, are we really having an impact in doing sort of one off types of farming, maybe even coming back two or three times? Like, what? Where are we making the changes that we really hope to, and we didn't think that we were while we thought we were doing good work, it wasn't sort of moving the needle, so to speak. And we sometimes did this work with another gentleman, Reggie. And so the three of us had been talking about some different sort of innovative things that we could do. And this idea of using a journal to help people sort of process their, their thoughts, in this case around race was kind of was germinated really, in some conversations the two of them have had had, and then they brought me in, and we started talking about what that could look like. And, you know, how would we shape that? Then they eventually, Reggie, the third person, he had to step away because of his some other work he was doing, but we kept doing it. And so what what happened was, we decided we were going to put this together. And we decided it was going to be a two year process. So we were asking people to really commit, we opened it up to the entire community of Mankato, so anyone who wanted to come there was no cost or anything. And we were going to gather quarterly. And in between those quarters, we were going to send them information, what we called prompts for them to take a look at and to, in their journal respond to them. We had some questions that they could respond to, or they could just kind of write or draw or whatever they needed to do, to process what they were seeing, reading, experiencing. And then when we came together, every quarter, they would be more prepared to have deeper, more meaningful conversations and sort of build relationships, to have greater understanding about, you know, basically, some of the issues that we have around the disparities that we have that are related. In this case, we were talking specifically about race, and much of our audience was white people. And that's okay, because there's, you know, we didn't say that that's what it needs to be. But that's just what it turned out to be. And if we think about the work that we have to do around, you know, cultural competency, it really is everyone's work. And it's going to be most effective if we all come together. And so for two years, we had probably 75 people or so turn up every quarter to have these conversations. And I think on our listserv, we had maybe upwards of 250 300 people that were receiving our prompts every two weeks. And so we just went through, we started talking about sort of the impact of race and yes, it's a social construct and it's it's very much made up, but it has real impacts every day on people's lives and livelihood. And then we kind of drew a line through race and criminal justice, race and education, race in health and wellness, race in housing and income. And then at the end, at the end of the, the effort, we asked them to come up with solutions for their community like so you've learned all these sort of historical things and some present day things. You've examined some data, you've heard some from some experts at our quarterly sessions, we'd invite in some experts to talk about it. Whatever topic we were on, and then we said, so what does this mean for you know, not only you but your community? Are there things that you would like to see changed? And how would you go about doing that, you know, you've got people here from the business sector, or from education, from health, from health care, how would you all come together to solve some of these issues in your community, and be prepared in case anything happened, which, you know, things are likely to happen. And so this started in 2016. And we went through 2018. And it was a great process. People really, really committed and they enjoyed it, it was a journey. We had tears, and we had celebrations, and we have people angry, and we have people happy. And butt off. You know, I think we really tried to challenge people and push them but care for them at the same time. We did, you know, sort of a lot of research as we went. And because it was just the two of us, we were able to be nimble enough to say, you know, I think we need to maybe change this a little bit, maybe we're sending out too much information or not enough, or something happened today, right in the news, and in or this week, and we need to make sure we talk about that with this group. And so we were able to keep it sort of current. And then when it was all said and done, we kind of sat back for like six months. And we were like, wow, we learned so much about ourselves and about the process and about this work that. And we have a useful process that we really believe in that we we want to we decided to write a book about it. And that's where the book came from was after. So it's, it's a bit of a reflection of the entire process. But it's also sort of a workbook that anyone can use on their own or with a group perhaps, and we've had other groups use it, we've done this process with other groups, other organizations. But you know, it's really, it was really a just, it was like a labor of love. Like we really believe in this process. And we want people we want some people to have a tool, right? There's a lot of people doing this work. And there's a lot of ways to go about it. And we don't think we're the only way we think the work that we are doing can complement many other things. And so we just want it to be accessible to people and for people to kind of continue learning so that we can make some changes in this world that we live in. You know, and we talk specifically about race, because that was our experience. But we've also thought about how how it's someone from other communities, like other intersecting things, take the same process with their expertise and use it to help people grow in learning about other areas of cultural diversity. So Michael Hingson 28:34 that, of course, is a question that that logically comes up. And of course, for me personally, it involves the whole issue of disabilities. We hear constantly when people talk about diversity, equity in education, we hear about race, we hear about gender, we hear about sexual orientation. And we incredibly, very rarely ever hear about disabilities. And that's especially amazing since the disabilities community or the community of persons with disabilities is the largest community in the country by far. Yet it is the current part of the community in the world that is least included and involved. How do we change that? Stacy Wells 29:22 Yeah, I think that's a great question. And you know, this is for me, I just want to share an example about how even though you can be doing this work, you you are always learning so I was working for the Department of Human Services for a couple of years and the administration that I worked in community sports included behavioral health, and it had Disability Services, deaf and hard of hearing. A couple of other areas, and I realized we were planning like a quarterly meeting for employees. So you know, like something On and we had a part of one of the divisions included folks that represented indigenous populations. And there was someone who was willing to do some kind of ceremonial drumming. And I was like, Oh, that would be wonderful, you know, but then I was like, Oh, if someone is, you know, I was like, Are we being inclusive? Because we have deaf and hard of hearing and a lot of people, not only did they serve the people of Minnesota that were a part of that, but they, many of the people on staff were identified themselves having that as a different disability. And so I was like, Well, no, that, you know, like, maybe we shouldn't do that, because they won't be able to hear it. And so I went, and I asked, because how else do I know? And in one of the people I talked to, it's like, well, no, we can see it's fine to do it, we can still feel it. And actually, particularly if it's, you know, drums, percussion, we can feel that. So yeah, that's fine. And so just the assumption that I made, right, and what I realized is that, because I didn't have anyone in, in my kind of close circle that was deaf or hard of hearing, it's not something that came front of mind all the time. And I'm thinking that I'm trying to be inclusive, right? I'm thinking about what are when I'm preparing a document, especially, that's going to be shared, if it's accessible, and all those other sorts of things. But that isn't, that was an area that was sort of a blind spot for me, right. And so even though I've been doing this work a really long time, I was like, Oh, I've got to learn more about this, and I need to be more mindful about it. But also, to your point, I feel like it's just an area that people for whatever reasons, sort of overlook. And I think what we need to remind people is one, I mean, you know, there are, obviously visible disabilities, but there's a lot of invisible ones. And we should just be, we need to always be mindful of it. Because even if we don't know, we can't see it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And if we're not finding ways to make sure that we are being inclusive of that as well, then we're really leaving out a whole swath of people. And of course, like many other things, disability is one of those is, is a part of the intersectionality, right? So there's just layers for people. And I just remember, you know, for example, at the height of COVID, the disability community, it was like, Hey, we are being disproportionately affected by COVID, and no one is talking about it, you're talking about elderly people, you might be talking about it by race, all those things are really important, but it's important for us as well. And so I think we just have to keep sort of making it a part of the conversation. And again, like many things, it's it's often the people that are part of that community that are doing sort of the most, they are the ones that have to always seem to bring it up in I would like that to change. I mean, of course, they're going to advocate for themselves. But I want other people to advocate for them. In case they're not there at the table so that we can say, we need to make sure that we're getting that information, we see it happen somewhat in K 12. A bit more because of you know, special ed, but I think it we we tend to lose it. If people don't feel like they know anyone that has a disability. And it just isn't something that comes to mind. So we just we have to keep, we have to make sure that we keep asking about it and are curious about it and make it as important as any other area of diversity that we're talking Michael Hingson 33:56 about. It comes up some, but there's still so many challenges. So for example, dealing with blindness, we see all the time in the educational system. People say, Well, you don't need Braille anymore, because books are recorded, or you can listen to them on computers. And so the result is that today less than 10% of all people who can read Braille. And of course, the the downside of that is they don't learn to spell they don't learn to write, they grow up functionally illiterate, and the educational system to a very large degree supports that. Yeah, they don't think through that. The reality is that Braille is the means of reading and writing that blind people should use. Now I also in addition to that would point out that blindness from the definition that I use is not just total lack of eyesight, but if you get to the point where your eyesight is diminished to the level where you can't use your eyes to accomplish everything and you have to use alternatives. You want to be learning the techniques and the technologies that blind people use, including totally blind people, because it's the only way you're going to be as effective. If you can read large print, or you can use magnifiers to read or closed circuit televisions, it's great, except your reading speed will be slow. And you won't be able to read for long periods of time without getting headaches. Whereas a person who learns Braille and who is encouraged to learn to use and read Braille. In addition, if they have eyesight to learning, the ability to read print as they can, they'll be a much more efficient and much better reader color all along the line. And I've heard so many people growing up who said I'm on partial that as I've got some eyesight, and they wouldn't let me learn braille. And I didn't know any better. And I grew up not being able to read nearly as well as I could. So the educational system has a lot of growing to do. And we've got to recognize that Braille is a true alternative to print. And I'm on a little bit of a soapbox here, but I'm also doing it to try to educate people to the fact that the reality is what you think about blindness, blind people or anyone with disabilities is not necessarily all there is to it. And it's important to go further. Stacy Wells 36:25 Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that about Braille, because I didn't realize that people were saying that, that it didn't need to be taught or that it or that people didn't need to learn anymore. And I think that that's, that's ridiculous. Because I mean, to me, I kind of equate it to another language. First of all, and but I have noticed that you don't see things in Braille all the time, right. And I feel like when I was growing up, it was much more common to see it. Now that I there often places where I don't see it at all. And I would imagine, obviously, like you're saying, if people aren't learning it, then people aren't creating it, right? It just sort of fades away. And that's not okay. Michael Hingson 37:09 It's so much easier to produce it today than it used to be. There's so much in an electronic format. And I hear what you're saying about viewing it as another language, I can see you doing that. But see, I don't view it as another language because it is it is the it's, it's a true alternative to reading print, so is print another language. You know, I got to look at it the same way. The reality is Braille is another way of representing the same things that you see through reading. And I see through reading braille, because as we know, c does not necessarily mean with the eyes except for like dependent bigots who think that the only way to see is with eyes, fun to pick up. And, you know, it's it's an also another way of saying as I love to do on some of the podcasts, everyone in this world has a disability, most of you are light dependent, you don't do well in the dark, it doesn't mean that it isn't a disability. And we should really recognize that we all have challenges and we have gifts. Braille really isn't another language. It's another method of representing the same stuff that you get by reading. Stacy Wells 38:19 Okay, that's interesting. So it's not necessarily a way of communicating, it's a way of receiving information. Well, it Michael Hingson 38:25 is a way of communicating as well. I take notes in Braille, I might pass braille to other blind people who do read Braille. It's a true way of communicating every bit as much as you using a pen or pencil and paper. And then the other part about it is of course, we all in theory should learn to use keyboards and communicate through computers. But a computer and you typing on a keyboard isn't a different language, it's a different way of doing the same thing. Stacy Wells 38:55 Okay, okay. And so there's a an actual, is there an actual machine that you use to create the Braille? Let your, Michael Hingson 39:06 there's several ways to do it. There are several ways there are machines that do it. I can create a file on a computer and transmitted to a machine that will then provide it as a representation in Braille. So the thing is that you really just have to look at Braille as a true alternative, not substitute or substitution. It's a true alternative to print. It's another way of doing the same thing. And the reality is good Braille readers will read every bit as good as most good print readers because we learn to do it. Sure. Well, that's Stacy Wells 39:44 interesting. See, I love learning new things. So I think one, two, back to your question about how do we sort of how do we, you know, make the conversation about disability bigger is that we just have the conversation right? If you Have someone like yourself to talk to and ask questions and you're obviously willing to answer the questions and like inform. That's how we learn more and become more mindful. And we just don't do that enough. Sometimes we're afraid to ask the questions or we don't know anyone, or, you know, you don't want to engage in the conversation. But that's, that's a really simple but very important way of, because once you hear and learn about these things, you can't really like, not think about them or pay attention to them, I don't think, I think then starts to really, you think about it, and it should inform your, you know, change your behavior or inform decisions that you make moving forward. So I appreciate you sharing that with me. Michael Hingson 40:44 It is it's a true way of another way of doing the same thing that that you do. I think that the reason Personally, I believe that the biggest reason that disabilities aren't included is we're taught to fear them. We're taught to fear disabilities, oh, my gosh, you could, you could become our I could become a disabled person tomorrow. And we, we grew up with things like the Bible that truly have not represented disabilities well, but more important, in general. We teach our children to fear, real difference, and disabilities are one of the biggest differences that we tend to really teach children to be afraid of. I mean, look at race race was certainly feared. And it still is, in so many quarters. It's, it's a process, it's slowly evolving. But disabilities is nowhere near there. And you're right. It's all about the conversation. And we need to just become more proactive, including in the conversation. Stacy Wells 41:54 Right, exactly. Yeah, that's so true. I feel like um, and I the other thing, and you couldn't and I guess I'd be curious about your opinion about this, too, is that sometimes there's this tendency, especially if it's a, you know, a more visual disability to the first tendency is that people feel this sort of pity for someone, right, without knowing anything about what's happening. And it's, and I think that's part of fear, and and that's why people don't say anything, or they like try to avoid it. It's like, Oh, I'm so sorry for them. I know, right? Something bad happened to them, right? Like, well, how do you know, Michael Hingson 42:32 it's what it is, it is what we're taught. For many years, the Gallup polling organization and surveying people's fears, said that blindness was one of the top five fears in the country, not even persons with disabilities. But blindness. Because sighted children grow up believing eyesight, it's the only game in town, and they carry that forward. And it's not like I said, The problem for all of you is that your light dependent, so your eyesight is great until there's a power failure unless you happen to be or where there's a flashlight, or you can turn your iPhone on, or your your cell phone in general and have a flashlight. But the bottom line is you still need to turn on that technology to get light without light, you don't function very well. And so why should it be different for you than for me, and we just haven't gotten to the point of truly evolving the conversation to recognize that we all have challenges. We all have gifts, and we can all use different kinds of technologies to accomplish the tasks. Stacy Wells 43:39 Yeah, that's great. Well, I mean, I think about people who turn 40 something and they all of a sudden need like reading glasses, right? And for some people, that is a big transition, it's like, oh, my gosh, I need reading glasses. Michael Hingson 43:54 Like or more important, they fear turning 40 Yes. And then a lot of them turn 40. And discover wasn't a big deal after all, or 50. All right. So it's it's an interesting world, we live in a dichotomy of a lot of different kinds of attitudes. Stacy Wells 44:12 It is, yeah, we have. I mean, you know, in some ways, we have a lot of work to do around it, but it doesn't have to be you know, it could if we can have conversations with people and be open to learning, then it doesn't have to be hard. It can be uncomfortable, but it should lead to a better place. Right? Michael Hingson 44:35 Oh, sure. Well, for you with right on race being right on race, did you hold more community engagements and so on after 2018? I would have thought that certainly with the whole thing with the George Floyd situation so on that was an opportunistic time for real discussion. Stacy Wells 44:55 Yeah, we did. You know, it's been really well received. It's been used in a couple of the book itself has been used in a couple of graduate classes. And we've we haven't been able to get anyone to do another two year engagement. But we've done things like three months or six months. So we've done with a lot of with some nonprofits, and some higher ed organizations, we've done it with a couple of for profit. During COVID, we did a special COVID Obviously online session for I think it was six or eight weeks where we talk specifically about some of the issues around COVID. And we are currently working with the Minnesota Humanity Center to do a statewide, statewide project in kind of form outstate metro areas. And so we've done one of those, which is in St. Cloud, Minnesota, and then we are going to be starting another one this fall. And then there's two more, so it's gonna be you know, it'll be a few years, but those efforts are lasting about six to eight months, too. So, again, you know, it's really more about helping, just providing another way for people to have these conversations with one another. build community. And I think one of the things you mentioned, George Floyd, and one of the things that I think that revealed, among so many things, is that in Minnesota, in particular, we have some real challenges and a state that, you know, in some ways, considers itself very liberal and, you know, sore wood, kind of, above the fray, we really aren't, we're having the same issues in Minnesota, and sometimes worse than they are in any other place in the nation. And so, for people that weren't aware, for a number of reasons, it really made some people stop in and think about what they didn't know about what was happening. And, and so, you know, not only our work, but others work really, in Minnesota was very important and vital. And some of that work continues and some of it has waned, unfortunately. But it was, you know, an opportunity for some people to realize, okay, maybe Minnesota is not this utopia. Of course, it's not right. But like, oh, yeah, okay, so disappointing. Michael Hingson 47:19 Yeah, right. Stacy Wells 47:21 I'm living comfortable. And I didn't know these things are happening, but they certainly are happening. And so yes, it's been really a helpful tool. And we have enjoyed meeting lots of people and helping them to engage in these conversations using the process, and just happy that they're having the conversation. But again, there's much work to be done in many needs to be involved in that. So Michael Hingson 47:47 well, being A Prairie Home Companion fan, I have to ask, have you started a program yet? And Lake Wobegon? Stacy Wells 47:53 We have not. Well, we should probably look at that. Michael Hingson 47:57 You should I would think that you, you could get them to think they're pretty closed in a lot of ways. But you could get them to think and grow. That might be interesting. I might be Yeah. Ice fishing. Yeah. Exactly. over some hot dish over Yeah. Right. You know, go to the fist home, and the church can sponsor many things. That's right. So for you, you're, you're doing a lot, what's something you're not good at? Just to ask, just to be spiteful, and Stacy Wells 48:35 a lot of things you know. So one of the things and this is this is kind of joking and thinking about like engaging with people. I'm not good at like, hiding my emotions and like holding my face. Like if I'm really curious about something or I don't like it, I have an immediate reaction. So actually, having to wear a mask all the time during COVID was probably good for me because I was able to react without people necessarily know and if you know me, well, then you can, even when I'm trying to hide it, you can you know that I'm thinking something or I'm reacting to something. But that's, that's just something kind of silly, but, you know, I mean, I think there's just so much I am a really curious person, and I like to learn things. I wish that I had skills like around carpentry, I would love to be able to create something with my hands in that way. I'm I, there's I would love to learn another language. I try to learn French and I know a little bit of Spanish, but I guess I haven't committed myself enough other than taking some classes in college. So I would love to do that. I think. Yeah, there's just there's a lot of things that I could learn or do better. You know, I think we can always just be better people. I I tried to be a really good person, but I tried to be to learn every day about, you know, I, this conversation with you about blindness has really already got me thinking and so I, you know, I'm always like, okay, there's always something that we can do better. And I don't think of that as a negative thing, I just think that we grow and change all the time as people and so, you know, we shouldn't get stuck and we should always be willing to improve ourselves in in most of the time, but they're in smaller ways not necessarily in big life changing ways. So, you know, I can I could find a number of things that I'm not very good at, that's not a problem for me, because, you know, we're always our worst critics. Michael Hingson 50:47 Well, so during COVID, did you win more poker hands, because you had to wear a mask? Stacy Wells 50:53 I did. I want to learn how to see. We, you know, our school district was plagued with those school board meetings that were, you know, had people showing up throwing around conspiracy theories and accusations, we had all of it taping us and appearing our district appearing on Fox News a couple of times. And so I'm a member of the cabinet, which is the leadership team and we we have to sit kind of not in front where the school board sits, we're kind of off to the side all together. And when some of the people will come to the front to speak and make accusations and sometimes personal, having a mask on allowed me to say a lot of things under my breath. That would not have been appropriate. If I didn't have it on, but it allowed me to stay in the meeting. And be able to, I won't say tolerate but be able to sit there, do my duty. Without like, losing my my mind and like, responding right in, in time to some of the things that they were saying. So a mask was a good thing. For a lot of reasons. Michael Hingson 52:10 I understand the fairly well, i i play cards not often anymore, but I learned to try to kind of keep my face straight when I was was playing. But I understand exactly what you're saying. And certainly with a mask. It makes it it would make it a lot easier. No question. Stacy Wells 52:30 Right? Yes. Just then you have to learn how to like use your eyes, right? Because they're very, you know, full of expression to sometimes. What kind of what did you play? Did you play poker? Or did you Michael Hingson 52:41 um, poker a little bit and then my parents my in laws played a game called Liverpool, which is kind of a, I think of rummy oriented game. Okay, fun. We always said that my mother in law cheats, because she usually one. We always said she cheats. She didn't really but it was so much fun to tease her because she, she was just good at it. It was it was a lot of fun. Well, you work with a consulting group called lug love and struggle. Tell me more about that, if you would. Stacy Wells 53:13 Yeah. So, you know, again, this is all related to the right, Andre. So we started all that before we formed the company. But then we realized that once we were going to write the book, and then use the format in other places, hopefully at the time, we were hope hopeful around that, then we decided to come up with the the actual company, or LLC so that we could do some of that work, as you know, formal consultants, because people would be asking for that. But the name love and struggle comes from my colleagues, Father, actually, he was a part of a lot of the work in the Milwaukee area, when he was a young man, and part of the struggle, and it's really sort of speaking to the fact that, you know, doing at that time, really what was more about, like kind of the Black Power movement. It was that there is going to be struggle to try to get some equality, but that, you know, it comes from a love for all people, especially your own people, but other people as well, and how important it was to always kind of keep that balance and keep that in mind in order to to make some strides with the work that they were trying to do. And so it still seems appropriate at this time. In many ways that you know, it's really about how do we, in general for the most part, the things that we're talking about when we talk about race and racism is not about any one individual person. I mean, we see some of that occasionally, that's not the biggest concern. It's really more about the systemic and institutional racism. So, you know, like, this work is not about dividing people, it's really about coming together. And so we're going to struggle through some things, but we're going to do it with some love. So that hopefully, when we get out on the other side, we're going to be whole. And, and so that's kind of the approach that we take, like, you know, when we work with groups, people, we are not trying to, again, we want them to be uncomfortable for that growth, but we're not trying to tear anyone down, we want them to, to be effective and to you know, be a part of making this world just a better place. So that's really kind of where it comes from, and speaks to the approach that we try to have, when we do the work that we do. Michael Hingson 55:51 You think that there are a lot more efforts to kind of tear down that sort of a concept and not promote love as much as we should? I mean, when we look at all the stuff going on in politics, and everything else, it seems like there's a lot of places where love and trust and such are under attack, it does seem Stacy Wells 56:09 like it right, even sometimes from the religious space were like, wait a minute, I thought religion and in, you know, for some people, Jesus, or whoever their their sort of their god or savior is like that's supposed to be about loving and caring for people. And sometimes it's used in a different sort of way. But, you know, I'm sure that they wouldn't say that that's what they're doing. But that's sure how it feels when you hear them talk and see the actions that they take. And, you know, we just don't, that's really unfortunate, because we don't have time for that. Because, you know, whether it is race, or gender, or disability, or a whole host of you know, we have, there's no shortage of things that we could be talking about. What people generally need is just more, we all just kind of need more, sort of caring for and some grace, right? Because it's hard out here for people, most people, almost everyone I would venture to say, is struggling about something and having a hard time and you just don't know what people are experiencing. And so, you know, you're asking them maybe to do one more thing, or to learn something, or to undo some beliefs and values that they were taught as young people and it can feel really hard and scary, and they're fearful. And so if you can do that without, you know, being mean, and feeling like people have to hate one another, then I think it's just so much more effective and healthy. But I yeah, there's a lot happening right now that feels really horrible and ugly, and hurtful. So Michael Hingson 57:52 either there is and it's it's so unfortunate, I think you you really raise some good points about that. And we really need to work harder at stopping the hate stopping promoting the hate. And as you said, churches made then people at churches may say that's not what we're doing, although it feels like that's what they're doing. And if it feels like that's what they're doing, then they need to listen and recognize maybe that is in fact what they're doing. Or enough people feel that way that the messaging is all wrong. Stacy Wells 58:24 Exactly. Right. Because it doesn't, you know, it's sort of that intent versus impact thing. If, if that's the feedback that you're getting, and that's how people are feeling, then that's important, because that's what that's the lasting impression on them. So you might want to reevaluate what you're doing, if you really care, if that's really not what you're trying to do. And I'm not convinced that that's not what they're trying to do sometimes. But, you know, that's what they'll they most won't admit that. But I but I also feel like there's more people that will admit that nowadays for, you know, a number of reasons there's sort of a new, embolden pneus around being hateful. And it's, to me, that feels very scary, because it's like, okay, well, then what, what, what happens next, right. And so, and I try not to really live and think that way, but I also am not. I also try to be realistic, too. So, Michael Hingson 59:21 and that's fair. And that is certainly something that we have to do. You know, I was just thinking about the conversation we had and the whole idea of having conversations about disabilities. And if I were to sum up part of what we need to do in one sentence, it would be we have to get people to understand that since we're changing words and definitions all the time, disability has to stop meaning not able or a lack of ability because it has nothing to do with a lack of ability. So there's a thought to think about but we've got to really, you know, move forward Stacy Wells 1:00:01 What do you think about the term? I've heard this used? You know, people will try out different terminology or or names but differently abled is what I've heard people try to use some time. Do you feel like that's more appropriate or Michael Hingson 1:00:14 low? I think it's absolutely a gross term. How am I differently abled? The abilities? Right? Yeah, the, the ability is the same. Again, it gets back to using different techniques to do the same thing. But women oftentimes do things using a different way or a different technology than men. Left handed people do things in a different way than right handed people do. But we don't call them differently abled. The fact is that we've got to stop dancing around the fear. And the reality is, disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. All it means is, we may do things in a different way. And again, I think it's important that we all recognize that everyone has a disability, I still stick with the light dependence idea, because the fact is, you don't do well without light, which means Thomas Edison came along and gave you a light bulb, so that you could see in the dark, but until then it was a lot harder. And now technology makes that even easier, doesn't change the fact that that's still what's going on. So the disability for you is as real as the disability for me, except that yours gets covered up because there's a whole lot more technology, because there's a whole lot more of all y'all than there are of Me, does. It doesn't change, though, the fact. And so we've got to stop trying to make up terms that really don't help the problem at all. Yeah, and Stacy Wells 1:01:45 better to be more specific about what we're talking about write? Michael Hingson 1:01:49 Well, and the fact is that again, it goes back to everyone and so we really need to be just learned to be more inclusive. Yeah, what's what's one thing you'd like people to remember about you? Stacy Wells 1:02:00 Oh, you know, I, there's a saying I don't remember who says it. And maybe there's a number of I've read it in a number of different ways. But that notion about people will remember how you made them feel like not what you said to them, but how you made them feel. And so I try to really kind of live in that way I want. I don't even pretend that everyone is always going to like me, but I don't ever, ever want anyone to sort of engage with me, or encounter me in in feel like I treated them badly. Right? Or was even dismissive of them, even if it's brief, just trying to be respectful of people and kind. And so I think that's what I like to always leave people with, even if whether it's a short sort of encounter or, you know, a longer more established, you know, relationship, whether it be around work or whatever. I just think that that's really important. And more than anything, is we just again, I mean, I feel like I've said this a few times, but it really is how we take care of one another. And so I'm a bit of an empath. And so I want other people to be happy, especially if I care about them. But just in general, and I, I am, I like to feel good. And so I want other people, however, they need to feel good. I tried to be a part of that rather than being creating more chaos or problems or stress for them. So Michael Hingson 1:03:39 cool. I think that's as good as it gets. Well, if people want to reach out to you or learn more about you, or any of the programs that you're dealing with, how do they do that? Stacy Wells 1:03:51 You know, probably the best I mean, I am on social media. So I'm on Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter for the time being. But probably the best way is to reach me by email. And we could probably share that out some way. But it's pretty simple. It's Swellmn like the abbreviation for Minnesota. So swellmn@gmail.com. That's probably the best way but otherwise on social media as well. Michael Hingson 1:04:23 And where's the book available? Stacy Wells 1:04:25 The Oh, so we do have a website? Or if you just Google right on race to be right on race or Google love and struggle, can purchase the book right online Michael Hingson 1:04:38 and then publish it or did you have a publisher do it or what? Yeah, we Stacy Wells 1:04:42 did self published it. So we put it all together. And we did it in about probably about three months. We kind of took all of the information we had compiled for the effort and then we wrote some intro pieces updated some things wrote a closure, put it all together and self published through a very small printing press in Minnesota here and put it online. Michael Hingson 1:05:11 So you should available electronically as well. Stacy Wells 1:05:14 We are working on that we're working with a graphic artists, that's probably about halfway with that. So we're hoping to have that available soon, as well as some other books that we're working on writing. So that is one of the things I really both of us really enjoy doing is writing. It takes a lot of time though, right? So if you have other work, you don't get to it as quickly as you'd like. But, yeah, so more to come in that area. Michael Hingson 1:05:41 Unless you're dealing with graphic artists, and you're dealing with pictures and other things for the book. Be sure to make them accessible for those of us that aren't going to see them. And if you need help with that, I would love to find ways to make sure that that becomes accessible for you. That would Stacy Wells 1:05:57 be great. Yes, we've been trying to make sure we do that. But it would be great to have someone that has a lot of experience with that. Because I feel like we're kind of we're sort of doing the best we can so yeah, well, maybe, maybe you could be our professional in that area. That'd be awesome. Michael Hingson 1:06:15 Well, Stacy, thank you once again for being here. And I want to thank all of you listening out there. Thanks very much. This podcast is for you We really hope that you discover as you listen to these episodes that you are probably a lot more unstoppable than you think you are. And I am convinced that all of us are more unstoppable than we think we are. And again, thanks for listening. I love to hear your thoughts about today. Please reach out. You can contact me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. But wherever you're listening, however you get the podcast, we would really appreciate if you give us a five star review. And give us all your feedback and your comments. Stacy for you and all of you listening if you know of anyone else you think we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset. I would love to hear from you. And we'll work on getting your suggestions on his guests. So I appreciate that very much. So once last time, Stacy, thank you very much for being here and coming on with us today. Stacy Wells 1:07:32 Thank you, Michael. I really appreciate it talking to Michael Hingson 1:07:41 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. 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