How to Think, Do, and Say Your Great Work With Ron Tite | UYGW058

Just a simple line that I kind of think live my life by, which is that, you know, people used to vote with their wallets, and now they vote with their time.

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist, coach, author of the book, great work, and the creator of the great work journals. Every week on this podcast, we're here asking the big questions. What is your great work? How do you find it? And why does it matter whether we do it? What does it actually take to do more of your great work without sacrificing everything else? And how does the world change when more people are doing more of the work that matters the most to them? Stay tuned for answers to these questions, and so much more.

Have you ever met anyone who seems effortlessly innovative or full of great ideas? If you have, you may have met a border dweller. A border dweller is a term from sociology that refers to people who live close to a border between countries. And those people experience a culture that reflects both countries. In psychology, we borrow that term to refer to people who see connections between seemingly unconnected fields. Ron Tite is a classic border dweller. Whether he's bringing entrepreneurial ideas into comedy, or finding the common thread between content and advertising. Ron has his eyes on innovation. And you can see his border dwelling ways all over his bio. For example, Ron is founder and chief creative officer at church and state host and executive producer of the hit podcast the COO and executive producer of the documentary film freshwater he's written for television, he's wrote and performed a hit play. He's created a branded art gallery, published an award winning comedy book, and for five years was the executive producer and host of the award winning comedy show, monkey toast. Ron's most recent book, Think do say how to seize attention and build trust in a busy busy world. hit stores on October 29. All of this has made him an in demand speaker all over the world, speaking to leading organizations about creativity, disruption, branding, and leadership. Let's welcome Ron to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast. Ron.

Well, thank you, Amanda. Thanks for having me. So nice to be here. And hi, everybody out there and listening land.

Listening land. Yes. Hello, everybody. Well, I'm excited that you're here. And I'm part of the reason now people send me really long BIOS often. And I usually, you know, kind of cut them down some but I didn't Yeah, yours as much because there was such a vast expanse of great work in there. And I'm really curious about the what you would consider the common threads. So let's start where we always do. Tell us a little bit about your great work.

Well, my great work is not always great work. I think that's one of the one of the big things is that sometimes that's a great work. I think it the the goal is always great, the goal is always to get to great, but to get to greater think you need to be bad in some cases, to be, you know, really not so great. So that you can really reveal where greatness lies. But I think you know that all that's the thing that kind of connects everything for me is really just the you know, there was a simple line. But I kind of think live my life by which is that, you know, people used to vote with their wallets, and now they vote with their time. And we should just focus on being good enough, relevant enough. Interesting enough, funny enough, timely enough to win that time. And if you're winning the time, it's because somebody has said, You know what, I find this play show, ad book speech post is worth me taking my eyes off the 4 million other things. Yeah, but I could be looking at watching, reading, listening to and dedicate the two minutes, five minutes, two hours, whatever, to this thing. And it is out of that great respect for time. I think that really, I think drives everything I do. I think there's a lot of people who they think that their great work, they forget the check in that sometimes the what I might think is great work we know you might think is not relevant at all to you. Right? But I've got the bias of like no, but this is this is I live and breathe this every single day. So if you just give me two minutes so I can sales pitch you. You know I can pitch lap you. I know you're gonna find that what I deliver to you is of utmost value and you're like No, it's not. And so when I look at the stuff that I'm gonna get really cranky about that's when People make that assumption. And they're just wasting my time.

So I'm curious about that people used to vote with their wallet. But most of the, you know, one of the interesting things I was recently reading your book, I think you say, and one of the interesting, you know, coming from an advertising prospective, you're still hoping that they'll vote with their wallet. So I'm curious about how you see things have changed, because it sounds like you went from a fairly straightforward transaction into one that's now kind of chaotic, around the bend kind of way. So how do you see that having changed in the last? I mean, your whole podcast is sort of about this, but a little bit about how you see it

have changed? And that's a great question. So thank you for calling me on the bullshit, which I think we have to do as well, right? Like how people go like, this doesn't make sense. Because you're not here. This isn't recreational business. Like we're not here for business, we're not none of us. Or if you are, that's a completely different perspective on stuff. But this is yeah, this is to help our clients succeed. This is to help me succeed in my business. And so the difference is that, yes, it used to be a very direct and simple transaction. And all of the promotion was based in that direct and simple transaction. So that's why you get into the four Ps of marketing, you know, and so that if you wanted to ramp up that simple transaction, well, you promoted something and you're mad, the price on it, you know, it was really, really simple. And now with, there were a number of things that happened in that dynamic. And so one is that the cost of production came down drastically. So anybody can create anything. The second thing that came in was this global instantaneous distribution. So now I can make something really cheaply. I can distribute it to the globe, to everybody in the world, I can now have it within two seconds of me finishing it. And so all that did is it, it really spoke to us as human beings, because now we can create and consume the stuff that really interests us. I mean, really, really interesting. Yeah. So for example, for this, yeah, so I'm a baseball fan. And it's not such a Nishi interest. But do you know that I can on this phone, I can look at in the middle of the summer, I can look at every single pitch thrown in every single game. And I can see the degree of drop from the time it left the pitcher's hand to the home at time it hit home plate, I can see that angle change. And I can see it within a minute and a half of it happening in every single game. Wow, I can geek out on that. And other other people, you know, but you can watch the lowest common denominator on broadcast TV.

I like that, because I love this thing. And I'm gonna watch these pitches instead. Right?

Yeah. So that just pulled the eyeballs away from brands and traditional media and everything else. And so as brands began to chase that, like, Okay, we're gonna chase these eyeballs because we need to sell products. So what do you need to sell products now, and it's very different because it's such an indirect transaction. So now, I have all that stuff at my disposal, meaning if I'm a deal hound, that I've got 500 blogs that compare the best prices, and product features of software, whatever product these people have. So that's where why my agency has called, you know, church and state, that it's this blurring of the lines between editorial and content and advertising. So we know that we need to add value along the way, in hopes that when they do, you know, when it does come time for them to make a transaction that we are we have added value all along the way in a really transparent way. And we are the default choice for them. Okay, so it is you know, they used to vote their wealth. No, they vote their time, they vote their time. And once you've won the time, now, you're in a better place to win the wallet.

Yeah, you there, you become less of the choice among many become a choice among few. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you're really talking about or the way that sort of the people I usually hang around with psychologists and stuff called the democratization of information, right, like, information is now completely free. And so anything that you wanted to know you could find out on your own. And so what we're, what we're really paying for is for someone to guide us through information that we might be overwhelmed with, right? Because that's the problem of democratization of information as you're utterly overwhelmed. And it's difficult to know what to trust and what is just being sort of thrown at you because it's easy content that sort of click Beatty. So what do you find actually helps a brand or a person or anybody trying to stand out in this ridiculous noisy marketplace? Really helps people to build trust.

That was the entire move behind the book and and then I'm not just that I don't probably interviews people like Well, as I said in the book,

nobody will read the book.

But that was, but that was the inspiration to write the book, which was I saw that marketing in the past was all about, say, say, say, which is not just a Paul McCartney, Michael Jackson song. But it was all about the talking about the stuff. And now I know as an agency, that there is no ad or campaign that I could ever, ever, ever create. That would be more powerful than somebody on a front line actually delivering the service that was promised. And so it's the actions of the brand that really, really establish trust, because if I do a great campaign, but the action is not delivered, then trust goes down the drain. So really is about that middle section, which is the like, what do you what do you do that the trouble is that that is a more patient approach that requires a more patient approach, and which lies in conflict with the approach that many people want to take both enterprise level organizations who have boards of directors saying we need to hit, we need to increase the share price. And so we need to deliver a q2 number that is x, or a single owner operator who's like, I just want to buy a bigger house. And what can I do to get around that? How can a game the system so I can just get that level of success? Faster? And the result is? You don't know. I mean, people who, yeah, the giving a little try and game the system, you're like, Oh, you're chasing metrics, not an actual foundation of success. And there's, you know, in the speaking world, there are speakers who, and I encountered this a lot. You know, we're I probably do about 70 speeches a year. And I'm with a bureau and I've had people reach out and go, How come I'm not getting 70 a year? They're not getting they're not getting me that much. Yeah. And I'll say, Well, how many gigs are you driving? And they'll say, that's not my job. That's their job. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If you're doing 10 speeches a year, and you're not getting any spin, ie, people are saying seeing you and going, I saw you, I want you for this group, or I pass your name on, then you have a product problem, huh, you don't have a promotion problem, you have a product problem, and focus on the content, focus on the product, make something that is worthy and passing along. And that's I think that's when you can do that. That's when you build trust.

And that's powerful. Yeah, well, it's so interesting, because if you think about like, what you're asking people to do, it's really authenticity and consistency, right? It's like, do what you really mean, because it's the only way you will ever be consistently representing that perspective in a way that feels really authentic, across the many, whatever channels and ads and speeches and just conversations that you're having with people. If you're not being if you don't know who you are, you're not truly kind of putting what you have into what you're doing, then you're not going to be perceived as the same, like you're not going to be aligned. That's the word right. Like, that's what I really liked about your book was it was like, if you're not thinking and doing and saying basically the same thing, then even if you are a trustworthy person, you won't be perceived that way.

Bingo, that's exactly it. And that's where the gaming the system thing was really is really frustrating. Because where, you know, I grew up, quote, unquote, professionally as a creative director of a large digital advertising agency, a global agency, and we just cranked on TV spots, right? We just, we just continually did that. And print campaigns and out of home. And during those days when the new young upstart digital folks, they kept saying, Wait, you just wait until digital advertising comes in. And people are going to get the ad that they want, when they want it where they want it for the thing they want, you know, and all this other stuff is going to be irrelevant. And I was like, yeah, that that would be amazing. And then now that we're completely in 100%, immersed in digital, where it is that that's not here. Because what ended up happening is people realize this was never supposed to be about scale. Yeah, it's supposed to be well, customization was never supposed to be both scale. And what do people do? They're like, I'm just going to, I'm going to carpet bomb. 4 million people with one promotional message. Yeah, and I don't care because I only need point 00 6% to convert to be successful. And so there is no broader sense of purpose. They're just chasing numbers. That's all they're doing.

Wow. Yeah. And you can feel it as a second regular person living a regular life or like you aren't even trying to talk to me actually. And no way would I give you my money or even actually, remember that I've seen your ad before. Right? It's like very capable of just like dismissal. just dismiss, dismiss, dismiss, dismiss So I had

a great example of this, Amanda, where a friend of mine said, I've been doing this, this new line of business, I said, Oh, we're like, how did you build that? And he goes, You're not gonna like it. And I go, What did you do? He goes, I use one of those LinkedIn lead generation companies. And I said, What are you doing? He's like, I know, but it's been really successful. I've got like, five new clients. And I said to him, how, yeah, you got five new clients, and how many others innocent bystanders? Did you piss off? Now have a complete and perception of you? And he goes, I don't think you know, and like five days later, I ended up getting one of them LinkedIn messages. I got it. And I forwarded it to him. And I said, See, I'm already a client. I'm already a client. And you're, you're pitching me because you're not pitching me? You're getting somebody else to do it for you?

Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's like we bought this whole, you know, the emperor has no clothes. And it's like, here, we are all like buying the story that if we don't send hundreds of messages across all of these people, like we have no chance of success. And yet, really, it's the one on one connection. I mean, not to be like an old, like insurance salesman from 1972, or whatever. But like, who do you know, who might recognize my name from the conversations that we've had, and it's like, actually not that hard to build a very successful business from that perspective, because you don't compete with the noise. It's like my friend said, so it's just so much better. So I, you know, one of the things I love about you, there are many, but one of the things that I love about you is that you are also a creative person yourself, like you have written play. Like I said it all in the bio, and I'm sure, like you are a stand up comedian, which I feel like I've learned 50% in your life talks about being a stand up comedian and 50%. Just so how do you feel like your own self as a creative person has sort of bullied you or informed your great work? Or like, how does that little piece of you that shines so brightly? How do you find it coming into the rest of your work?

I think that's been a huge, huge piece. And but I'll be honest, like I didn't, there are some people who are genuinely creative and authentically creative and their total like the it's all they can do, right? There's like they can barely hold down a job because they can't ever apply it. It's just constant kind of iteration. And so growing up like I never thought I was a creative person. I was a jock. I got a phys ed degree like I never ever we like that. Yeah, oh, my God never would have put that stamp on my forehead. And I was never a writer, like I wrote a story as a kid and stuff. And I never really explored that until much, much later. Never thought I would be a stand up comedian never saw myself as a standard was never the class clown. And so there is but there is an element that I think that in some cases is naturally creative. So like, I don't know if you know this story, but when I started doing stand up, I went to a good friend who's a very accomplished stand up and I said, Okay, I want to I want to do I want to try stand up, what do I do? And he's like, Oh, you go to an open mic night. And you put your name in, and then they give you five minutes. And then if you're good, you keep coming back every week. And you just keep getting five minutes, five minutes, five minutes. And then when you're really good, they give you seven minutes on it. Right? And they and they give you $50. So I said, Okay, I'll go check it out. I'm not committed anything. I just want to get the lay of the land. So I went down there. And it was horrible. It was a free, short, horrible. No, I didn't do it. I was like, I'm not. I didn't want to commit to anything. I said, I'm just going to check it out. Okay to see. So I went down in a Monday night to a comedy club thing. And I saw like, That guy's drunk, like I lost the bet. This guy is horrible. Like, this is all bad. I'm not doing this. This is this is the meaning in every possible way, not doing it. And then he said, What else can I do? And he goes, I guess you can, you can get to know a producer who's producing a live show and get convinced them to give you five minutes, even though you've never done it. And I said, Well, why don't I just make myself the producer and put myself on the bill. So the very first time I ever ever did stand up comedy live in a comedy club. I had blind for the 45 minutes that was cut. And and brought in front he hosted it and I brought in some other people for the first act and I was the entire second act. And that is just such a great illustration of a creative approach to an aesthetic because that's, you know, there's a million different definitions of creativity but one of them which is just like how is what's an original way to see something or abuse. And within this very creative industry of stand up comedy was like there's only one way to do But like, yeah, that's bullshit. There's not there's gotta be other ways to do it. And so I took that the, it's that kind of an entrepreneurial approach to an existing way to do things. And when What's another way at it? Oh, I become a producer, I make myself the headliner, I'm gonna do the 45 minutes. Wow. So that, uh, that kind of creative, original unique perspective on stuff I think is, is really, really neat. And that's helped kind of inform some of my businesses and the way I go about things. But I also think, what is the difference between pure art of stand up, and that, you know, great work, which really needs money attached to it, if it's a business is that great stand up and great art is pure expression. It is pure expression. And it's like, I am just going to put a bunch of stuff out there. And if there are enough people who are willing to pay me for it, then amazing, but it's not about that it is about the pure expression of no holds barred. And that's what great art comes from. And, and so I think that is the other is the flip side of where that's really helped is like, from a LinkedIn post is like, I'm going to, I'm going to express myself in a really interesting, relevant way that's around this subject, whatever it is. And I think that's helped make some of that stuff maybe a little more real. And maybe it's made a little more vulnerable and a little more trustworthy. And when you combine all those things together, you end up with something just simply more unique.

Yeah. You know, what else makes it unique? Is that like, your church and state is the blurring the lines between which two things,

advertising and editorial, right content and advertising,

content and advertising. And I feel like what you described in terms of that moment with stand up was the blurring of the lines between art and commerce. And so it's possible that a lot of your genius, I don't know yet, whether I know this is true, but you probably will be a lot of your genius comes on as being sort of a border dweller, between things and people seeing things is really separate, but using them as like, you know, cousins and drawing from one to the other, which actually, from the psychological perspective, is most of what we talked about innovation, where does innovation come from borrowing from other domains and placing it in this domain? And it's a totally new idea. So that seems like

the 100%. Interesting, because, yeah, and then the speaking world, I started out, you know, the evolution of it was I started as a club comic. And then because I knew business, I started going into businesses and doing corporate comedy. And then wanting to know that was a thing. Yeah, you can go, I would go in and I'd like, it's a very niche thing. But I would go in and look at a conference, I attend the day or a day, an off site, I'd attend a full day and then write a customized set based on it at nighttime. And it's because the blurring of the comedy means business. Yes, of course. And then when I started speaking, it was like, I think they didn't know what to do with me, because they're like, why am I listening to a comedian? What is what is he going to teach me about business? And so I very quickly realized that the blurring of the lines, you need to sell it in really specific ways, because there was not much of a market for a comedian who knew about business, right? But there was a massive market for a funny business guy.

Yeah. Funny business guy, right.

And so I changed that pivot. And so I changed it completely and said, Don't call me a comedian. I'm not a comedian. Well, I'm a business guy. Yeah. Just happens to be funny. Yeah. And my rate tripled. The number of gigs tripled.

Right. Wow. That's fascinating. And it's interesting, because you probably were like putting the kibosh on talking about you a comedian at all. Because the the need to be completely consistent. Like they need to hear hear hear in here as a funny business guy. Yeah. And then Exactly, yeah, I hope so. Interesting. Great. So what is your so your I feel like the creativity that you described about making yourself a producer and then producing your own show, and all these sort of border dwelling things? It seems like you're in the business of doing things? I mean, maybe this is every AG, I don't know, but like, doing things in interesting new ways, like that is what you're about. So I'm curious, like, what is it about, like, turning the paradigm upside down? Or doing it in a new way? Or doing it with new people? Or, like, what is it about that that feels important to you? Like, why are you not just doing it the way it's always been done? Like, what is it about that that speaks to you personally?

Well, first, I would say that that is the approach, but it can also be a very dangerous approach. Because at the beginning of the agency, when I started the agency, that was the approach, which is like, I'm going to reinvent every single aspect of this because I think it needs to be reinvented. And the reality is if all you do is reinvent you never actually land on anything. And so I very quickly kind of took this approach of like, you know, I grew up in Canada's Flint, Michigan, called Oshawa, Ontario. And I understand like, there's this difference between assembly line and concept cars. And you don't actually make any money in reinvention. Right? You don't reinvent, because you don't unique because you need to scale it, right? You need to make it really efficient. And so it's very, it's a very inefficient way to solve a problem. Because there are no systems, there's no, there's no templates, there's

no tire in. Right. Exactly,

exactly. And so it's really expensive way to do business. So at some point, that reinvention, the concept car needs to make its way to the assembly line, where everybody knows exactly what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to do it, how they're supposed to do it. And it's repeatable behavior over and over and over and over and over again. So it's that, I totally know that that is where money is made. And that is the goal of business. I just not that excited by behavior. And, and even though I know how important it is, but yeah, so I continually look at the kind of the concept of like, what's the what's another way at it? And you know, we're lucky that I have a business partner who is the complete opposite. Like, no, we're gonna make sure that you don't bankrupt by through constant reinvention, and on just based on some web of something you want to try it today. The excitement of constant exploration and what if, what if, what if, what if? that I find really exciting? Yeah,

it seems like you do. In the world of cognitive psychology we talked and learning science, we always say that 70% of what you teach people, they have to already know it. And then 30 Then you can teach them that 30% That's new. Right? And maybe your business partner is the 70% He's like, gonna take it and turn it in something people can like, at least feel like they already know and feel comfortable buying. And then you're 100% Yeah, she's,

yeah, Robin Whelan is my partner and she's amazing. She is like, she's never said that wall right now, actually. And yeah, actually, that is that is very much more

fascinating. So what is your favorite part of this work of you're part of it? What brings you the boy?

Um, I really, like there's a bunch of different stuff, you know, sometimes? Well, I guess it's the nailed it. Right. But like, like, there's a problem here. And whether that is because sometimes that is, how do I write this line? It's like, what's the what is the perfect line? Yeah, that it's with a very craft oriented kind of thing with what's the best way to say that. And then you write a headline, you're like, that's it. Like, that's the best way to say that. That's it. Yeah. But that's also around solving a problem. And it's, you know, how do we build this approach of this model? So that it solves that problem? Like, boom, that's it? Yeah. And so it because that's the part of exploration in standup such a great metaphor for that, because you go to the stage thinking, this is really funny. And then you say it, and the risk is that it's not. And what's so great about stand up is it's it's immediately results you get you know, exactly in the moment whether you're right or wrong. And and that's a really humbling and fascinating experience when you're wrong.

Yeah. Well, it reminds me of of like, how we talk about great work, one of the things we talked about with great work is that it requires such comfort with discomfort, like the excruciating experience of being wrong of being up the wrong Creek of like saying it the wrong way of like, assuming it work, and then it doesn't, you know, you've launched something and no one bought it like that. The ability to sit with that without losing your shit is like the number one predictor of your ability to work. Stand up sounds like it's Bootcamp for that being able to be because you have to still be funny, like, if you say the wrong thing in the first minute. Like, it's not like you leave the stage right? Presumably, you get them back.

Yeah, this just happened to me on Friday. I was talking to about 600 speaking to 600 real estate agents. And I had done something over a couple of different speeches that worked really well with real estate agents and mortgage brokers and stuff where I talked about my second son Ben being bored two days into the pandemic and and there's joke joke joke joke joke haha, quiet down. And then I said he was born at 945 and 11am. I made two calls. The first call was to my banker. The second call was my financial advisor. I did not call my real estate agent, I didn't call them because they're not in the circle of financial trust, even though it's the largest transaction I'll ever make. I didn't call them. And why because real estate agents pop their head up when it's time for the transaction. And then there's they're really not in the broader, longer circle of trust. So I but I had, in the past few speeches for similar audiences, I had done the baby thing in the beginning Joke, joke joke, and then weaved into the content built up trust, oh, I've added value blah, blah, blah. And then I deliver that. And you know what, I didn't call you. I didn't call you because you weren't in the circle of trust. And that always worked really well. And it's silence the room and made them go like, Oh, shit, he's right. Well, Friday, I did at the very beginning of the speech, oh, first thing, and we're ready for it. I had to build up the trust. And I was just a jerk that because I hear I was like, kind of slapping them with the like, you're not good enough. Two minutes into the speech. And so I felt a little bit of my body lead the stage. And then and then I was like, you know, you're like, Yeah, I get why did I know better? Exactly. That was not the time to say that line. And but you know, I'm really sorry, you know, so I obviously tried to make it look more animated and be bit a little more complimentary for the rest of the speech. And it still went really well. But not wasn't my level of where I would have wanted it to go.

Right. And you had to know that the entire rest of the speech

the entire

Yes, well, so you are very likely to do great work. Because you can you can continue to move forward even when you're just like disappointed in yourself disappointed the situation not sure whether you're really going to get it back.

That's great. Yeah, I have done a hard turn sometimes. And I've been like, you know what? Yeah, I'm taking the time out here. Let's I just said something that I don't think I've ever really been really across the line in terms of offending anybody. But I've just like, Yeah, you know, if I would have died wouldn't have said that. So I think sometimes you come completely clean in the moment. That wasn't one where I felt comfortable doing it.

Yeah. Great. Because then it would have been like, why are you being extra weird now? Right? Because maybe Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly how he's gonna know he's apologizing. I don't understand. Yeah. Oh, man, that's a lot. Well, I feel like one of the things I learned from you is sort of the flip side of that, too, which I think is really awesome. At least I've thought about it a million times is like when you're up there, and you hit paydirt. And you're like gold, and I'm going to use this and use this and use this and use this until it like I don't know tarnishes and it's not good anymore. So like, I think that the story, I remember you telling us something about getting a shampoo at a hotel. And then like using that a million times. I think that's so interesting, because I feel like one of the things that happens a lot with people is they feel like they have to be completely off the cuff in order to be authentic, as opposed to what I feel like I learned from you, which is that if you hit something that is authentically you and works for the person in front of you, then you should continue to use it. Yeah,

yeah, it's going from concept car to assembly line. In the moment on stage, you correct come up with something like that's an amazing way to do that. And it was Michael Porter, who really, I mean, I knew it from my standup brain, which was bit right, you work the bit. So you come up with an insight on stage and you're like, let's look at this. And then you keep working the network in the network in the bed. And the line I may have used with you guys at HBS was was you know, you pan for silver, but you work for gold. Yes, you you know, you find a great thing. And then it really only becomes gold when you workout workout workout workout workout, workout workout. And so I knew that from Stanhope land, but where I had a problem with it was and where I sought the counsel of Michael and Amy port was I, I screwed up on stage in that story, specifically that story. And I said, at one point, there was a knock on the door. There was a knock on the door and there was a woman there. And then caught myself and said I like like from the hotel, like she worked at the hotel. And that got a big laugh. From the audience. Yeah. And but it was a genuine just a Bumble. And then my standup brain said, You gotta force yourself to make that error again. Ah, and then you, you end up with a laugh. And, and so I went to Michael and I was like, you know, like, is that really authentic? If I do that, and you know, or if I just like saying a line and the right way, and he said How dare you? You go Going into someone they're paying your full fee, and you're not going to give them the like, you're not going to take a line and say it in the best possible way. Because you know, that's the bet you're gonna do a cheaper version of that, because you think it's more authentic. If there's a great way to deliver a bit, deliver the bit, that's what they're paying you for. Interesting. And you know, and you know that, that bit like you making yourself the force, that error makes that little thing a little bit funnier, but it also makes them pay attention more and learn the lesson better. Yeah. So how dare you not give them your all so they can take the most from your lesson and your your keynote as they possibly can be being paid to do that. Fascinating. Yeah, that was a big, that was a big learning moment for me. Yeah, so the only time I won't do it, I just just happened last week. I was in Huntington Beach, and I was doing two sessions back to back. And for two different audiences, but there were a couple of people who stayed the boat. Yeah, right. And I like, oh, I can't do that. Because then it's like a magician. Kind of revealing. Though I didn't do it in the second one. And one of the people there was a was a someone from an American bureau. And he said, I noticed you didn't do that. Why didn't you do that? Yeah. And yeah,

so much of what you know, earlier, you said, the difference between, I forget what what you were comparing it to, but you said great art is pure expression. And I feel like, in the tight in the moment, I never argue with the guest ever. Like if they say something I'm not unless I'm really, we really got it. But it struck me I was like, is our pure expression, I don't know. I'm gonna think about it later. When then as you were saying this, I think that art is also best, great art, good art can be pure expression. But great art is an expression and connection. Because great art is meant to be received. If you're just doing art for yourself, that's one thing. But if you want to be a great artist who puts writes a play or puts a piece of like, you know, puts an expression of emotion on a, on a canvas, or stands up on a stage and is hoping to evoke an emotion like that can't be done in isolation, that can't be pure expression. It has to also be connection.

In some ways, I think, where my opinion was formed, in that it wasn't instead wasn't trying to be like a pure stand up, like this is all about me. And I'll get my name out. It was when I wrote my first book. And which is what I sought out to do, though, he was called everything once a comedian or everyone's an artist, or at least they should be. Yeah. Which is this idea that we all should be artists. And I interviewed, I went to something called an art battle. And where it's live, competitive painting, you know, in these all these artists, they get given a topic and they get 20 minutes to paint something and there's a DJ. And it's like, you're also like, I'm not cool enough to be here. This is a whole other like, I'm way too old to be I

really need a Blu ray right now. Yeah,

exactly. And so I interviewed all the artists competing, as I was writing my first book, and I said, and I, but I interviewed them alone, just one at a time. And each one talked about support for the other people. And like, well, this person does this really, because asked him what the other artists are like, what I really love is that he did this day. And I'd said to them, you, you spoke so highly of everybody. Yeah. But they're your competition. Or they know your competition. Like if they if someone wants to buy a painting, and I'm looking at your painting versus their painting. They're your competition. No, one of like, every single one of them said, No, yeah, I don't have competition. There's no competition. Nobody does this, like I do this. And then the second I go, Well, someone wants to buy a red painting. I don't only paint in blue. I'm going to paint in red. Yeah, no, I've completely lost my soul. It's the lowest it's a commodity. And I'm just trying to paint like that person paid to connect with an audience. And there's, there's it's not connected at all, because not kind of a genuine expression. So I think it's I think it's a little bit of both

in that. Yeah. I like it well, and I think that the idea of competition and like a lack of competition. I used to work with a lot of therapists I still do. And we talk about how your competition is not another therapist. It's someone's desire to do and, or Oh,

yeah, right.

This their desire not to have to be uncomfortable, their desire not to change their desire not to, not to like rock the boat or whatever. Like you're really asking people to do something fairly courageous. And of course, artists like that, too. Right? I you really are. It is a courageous act for sure. Yep. Yeah. Wow. So interesting. Well, I can talk to you all day, but I bet you have things to do. So we'd love to just hear obviously, everybody needs to go out and get thing to say, and maybe even everyone sharing interest Yes, I haven't read that one but I will get it immediately. How else can people get to know you?

Well, they can go to Rod tight.com They can go to church state.com. But those are kind of more promotional archival kind of places. I just added find I add most value on LinkedIn, just constantly reading and sharing and it's a great example of that, given the work that you do. Above the what did you call them? The border? Porter dwelling habitate. Border dwellers. I just shared something today, you know, where Dave Grohl is talking to Pharrell Williams. Oh, love it. And, and, and Pharrell Williams said like, Oh, you're such a great drummer and Dave Grohl? Go Stop saying that. I'm not a great drummer. You know what I did? It goes if you go back and you listen to nevermind, the first Nervana album, who? Where did they get that drums? Those drums from? That's where I got them from. Disco. Yeah. And he goes to listen to cameo. Listen to what the wrap up, wrap up, right. And he's like, that's all I did was I stole from disco.

My drummer. Good idea. Yes. And then yeah,

Nevada. And I was like, and preferably was like, What are you talking about? Right? Yeah, all Nervana is all Bisco drugs.

Wow. That's so interesting. I'm gonna go check it out right now. And today, just for those of you whenever this comes out, it's October 24. So you can find his posts from October 24. If you too, are curious about this. Well, I just want to encourage anybody who's thinking about it, this book, think do you say every time I turn to a new chapter, there's something I'm like, well, that's interesting and curious and great. It's a great book. He's a great writer, very funny, good stories. So I definitely want to encourage you to read that and I want to thank you, Ron tight so much for your time. I know how busy you are, and how in demand you are. And I'm really, really grateful. Well, thanks for the kind words, man, I really appreciate it.

And thanks for having me. Thanks for listening out there and listening land

listening land. Thank you.