How To Become One Of The Most Influential Marketers In The World with Andrew Davis | UYGW062

embarking on a quest for me is encouraging other people to take the leaps that they might not otherwise take.

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist, coach, author of the book, great work and the creator of the great work journals. Every week on this podcast, we're here asking the big questions. What is your great work? How do you find it? And why does it matter? Whether we do it? What does it actually take to do more of your great work without sacrificing everything else? And how does the world change when more people are doing more of the work that matters the most to them? Stay tuned for answers to these questions, and so much more.

This week, I'm sharing the 40s interview on the unleashing your great work podcast, which happens to be with the inimitable Andrew Davis. I have loved doing these interviews for lots of reasons. But one of the really big ones is how much I've learned about great work as a concept by hearing other people's thoughts about how they live their great work. When guests really prepare for the interview, which Andrew definitely did. I get the most interesting answers to the question. Tell us a little bit about your great work. The answer is move away from the immediate work they're currently promoting like their book or their podcast or their coaching services, and they launch into deep reflections on their life's work. What thread ties them together, how does it feel to do it? And what legacy are they truly hoping to leave behind? Because Andrew and I share a love for the Muppets and a quirky sense of humor. His characterization of his great work really struck a chord with me. Andrew Davis is on a quest. He's battling demons in the swamp, running away from a massive ball next to Indiana Jones, writing the Monsters Inc conveyor belt and discovering new truths. So who is Andrew Davis, you ask? Well, he's a multifaceted guy. He wrote documentary films and produced for NBC. He's worked for the Muppets and MTV. he co founded, built and sold a marketing agency. You might have seen him on the Today Show or in the New York Times. He's a best selling author, and one of the most influential marketers in the world. He's had more coffee today than you'll drink in a week. So let's welcome Andrew to the podcast. Thank you, Andrew Davis for gracing us with your presence on this podcast.

Well, thanks for doing your great work. It is certainly great. It's great to be here. Yeah, great.

Great. It's just great all around. Well, I'm super excited that you're here because I have been watching you pretty closely on all the socials. And I like your loyalty loop. Like I don't I actually don't like to watch videos, but I watched loyalty loop videos. Oh, that's so nice. So I just think you're such an interesting person. You've had such an interesting history. And you're a really great speaker too. So I'm curious to just talk to you about your experience with all those things. So if we could start, tell us just a little bit about your great work?

Well, I feel like my great work is leaving a legacy of kind of inspiring others to be more creative and to do more or less with less and to, to go like embark on a quest to find their own adventure. I feel like that's my my great work. It's it's an ongoing evergreen battle. That brings me a ton of joy and happiness.

Yeah. So tell me some of the ways that you have encouraged people to embark on a quest. I would love some examples.

Oh, sure. Well, for me, embarking on a quest for me, is encouraging other people to take the leaps that they might not otherwise take. Because they feel like there's a path that's been laid out for them. You know, I think when you're growing up you're told there's a you know, there's a path to become a doctor or a lawyer or a marketer or a creative person or whatever. And you're supposed to follow that path. And you know, I I found pretty quickly that it's not really a path it's more like a quest. It's there are goblins and ghosts and mountains to climb and dark swamps to go through and you're not sure of what's around the next turn. And I think when you treat your entire life's work your great work as a quest instead of a goal, or a path laid out in front of you. All of a sudden, every little twist and turn and adventure and and swamp and Monster becomes an opportunity for growth and learning and I think it's it helps encourage people to not worry if they're on the right path, but realize they're in their own adventure. And this is the right next move for them. And so, you know, I've done that with everyone from vendors of mine who aren't sure what to do next. And I've said like, like, you know, you gotta go either go all in or don't go all in, I bet people to do things that they never would have done to raise the stakes, so that there's real money or time or effort at stake, if they don't do what they're gonna don't accomplish, what they're going to accomplish. So they really put their mind and effort and focus where it should be instead of worrying about whether they're doing it right or researching the right way.

So are those two example and fat? Do you have a good story there?

Well, I these are stories. I don't share that often. Because I feel like they're very personal ones. But how about this, there are two gentlemen, I know very well, who run their own business. And they were struggling with sales. And were kind of thinking about packing in on a big investment they'd made. And I, I bet them a few $1,000 that they could actually achieve the goal they wanted in only 10 days. Wow. And they thought I was nuts. And in fact, their goal was to generate $65,000 in revenue. And for a two person small business, that's a pretty tall order. And, you know, they said, well, we might be able to do in 30 days, we're not sure if we can even last that long. And I said, I bet you can do it in 10 days, I'll bet you you know, some money that that you can. And they they not only did they hit the goal, they hit the $65,000 goal within like six days. And they ended up generating $95,000 in revenue. And it's just, it's because I believe that most people don't, they really are looking for outward validation and other people's tips and tricks and hacks and ideas to help them get to where they want to go. Instead of focusing on understanding their limitations, their constraints, the opportunities they have in front of them and taking advantage of them in the right way, looking at their own adventure instead of someone else's path kind of changed the dynamic for them and got them to focus on the right things. You know, it didn't matter if other people have had success doing ABC anymore. It only mattered that if they wanted to win the bat, they had to give this a good shot, you know, and that was the case.

Now so interesting. I love that analogy. I like the idea of like, you're watching Tony Robbins who is on a mountain, right? He has to like, I don't know what you do on a mountain and get some like ice picks and like ropes to pull yourself up the mountain you're like, but you're in a swamp when you really need like, I don't know, galoshes or something. Exactly. Why is it not worth needed?

Canoe? Yeah, exactly. That's what it's like. And I think you're constantly comparing themselves to others and their path to success, you know, the true, I think, you know, you can, like true success for me isn't found by like seizing every opportunity that is presented to you, it's kind of clutching on to your limitations and your constraints and your, you know, what's at stake for you and the clear outcome you've set for yourself, and the time you've made to make this a reality that's going to define what the what you do to see the success you want to see. So, you know, the output might be the same, like the end goal might be the same. Like, you both want to be a Tony Robbins motivational speaker, great. Like, that's fine. But yeah, Tony is on the top of a mountain using a bunch of different tools and techniques and tactics, given his limitations and what's at stake for him, and you know, what time he has to put towards it. And yours is totally different. You're in a swamp, you know, you have a paddle no canoe, like, gotta get out? What are you going to do? So I love the analogy. And I feel like that's, that's, I've spent a lot of time in the last year or two thinking about how, especially with COVID, actually how, you know, the kind of limitations and constraints we have can actually be fuel for growth and success. And it's it, I think it's really empowering for people to realize that they can make their own way they don't have to read a blog and then do the 10 steps to find success.

Yeah. Well, I like that a lot. And I think that I mean, in the book that I wrote great work. One of the main whole chapters was dedicated to the idea of self expertise, which is the idea that like, it doesn't matter what works, it matters, what works for you. And there's, I think it's a really, it is absolutely empowering, empowering. Like it's 50% empowering, because it's like, go try a bunch of stuff, and then listen to how you feel about it. And it's empowering, because 50% of the stuff you can just let go of if you're like That sounds terrible. I don't want to implement it faster drink green juices. You don't have to, like so much the world just opens up for you. So true. Yeah. So I'm curious, like, did you personally have that like, do you feel like that you are on a quest and that you have learn these lessons personally.

Oh, yeah, my entire career professional career has been a quest. And it may be my my personal life as well. But I definitely think my professional life has been a quest and adventure that, you know, if somebody had said, at the beginning of my television career to chart out my path for success, you know, would have included moving to LA and working as a production assistant would have would have included all the things that you're supposed to do. And, you know, maybe it would have worked out I might have today I might be in LA as some big famous, you know, executive producer of awesome shows or a writer or showrunner or something. That sounds great. But, you know, the quest quickly started taking turns, you know, I suddenly found myself, you know, wishing I was doing something else. And, you know, I got the job of the Jim Henson Company, which was my dream job to be totally honest. And, quite frankly, the job sucked. It was not a great place to work. I don't want to burst your Jim Henson bubble. But he was no.

This was Jim Henson anyways,

yes, yes, this was and his son was running it talking about anyway, this is a whole different story. But the point is, you know, what I thought was going to be the pinnacle of my success and a place I was like, live out my entire career, turned into a job that I only stayed at for two years. The best part of that job, by the way, I know Jim, you know, met Jane at school when they were working with muppets and puppets. I met my wife at the Jim Henson Company, like never would have expected right, she also worked there. Awesome. So yeah, so that was the best part of the job.

I just I want to I want to just linger here because you know, obviously, like, my love affair with the Muppets goes long and wide. I've always wanted to work on Sesame Street. And here's why. And I want to know if you have had the experience that I've lived my life waiting for. Okay. Here's, here's my, like, dream scenario. I don't even really have to work there. Like really just let me on set. Because what I want. I just want to see a drawer full of Muppet eyeballs. And like, oh, noes is like, I want to see Muppets.

Anything Muppets? Yeah. There's anything Muppet eyes and noses and stuff. That's what they call them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I actually worked in the workshop where they made the puppets. So I, you know, every morning I would walk in, and there would be people sticking eyes on anything, muppets and fixing hair and putting costumes on and Miss Piggy was at the desk, right across the way every day. And so is that yeah, it was that kind of work environment. I think you would have loved to come to the workshop, which was, you know, a building like the it's in Manhattan, it was on 1668 and 30. Sounds results. Look at my wife, if she could remind me 67/3 Right above a deli. It was a really old building. But it was Oh, yeah. That was what? Yeah, it was really inspiring place to work. I mean, I worked with 40 of the most creative people on the planet, literally. You know, but it's, it wasn't an easy job to do. And the company was in a bit of a financial straits. And, you know, when you talk about leaving a legacy, Jim certainly left a legacy of kind of creativity and inspiration. But, you know, legacies are hard to transfer if I learned anything at the Jim Henson Company. Brian Henson, his son, who was running it at the time, doesn't didn't have the same kind of vision or, or talent. No offense to Brian, that his his dad had, right. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think there were a lot of people at the Jim Henson Company that we're probably better suited than Brian, do it to live geneticists legacy and in a deeper way, Sheryl Henson, who runs the workshop and ran Sesame Street, she was, you know, a very different person than Brian and also good. But it was a weird that my point is, yeah, I never thought I thought this was it. I made it. I'm gonna work here for the rest of my career. And two years later, I was like, desperate to get out of it. And yeah, so desperate that I was like, well, maybe marketing is a better fit for me. You know, maybe television isn't the right move. And that's the kind of adventure I think people need to be willing to be on that. Yeah, even though you set this path out. You don't necessarily have to think of this as a big letdown and, or the wrong move. Like every move has a reason if you look for it, like you need to find the the, you know, the experience that you can bring from it to bring to something else. And that outside perspective is really helpful to you know, I would be a very different marketer if I had never worked at the Jim Henson Company.

Well, I think what's so amazing about it is that most people I feel I don't know if it's most people but a lot of people who lament that they haven't yet gotten the brass ring. They haven't yet worked at the Jim Henson Company don't realize that. They feel like they're always at the starting like someday I'll get they're always like stopping themselves from getting on the quit. Just like going and figuring out what it really means. When I was in academia, I, you know, got my PhD and then I did a postdoc. And then I was like, oh, no, what do I do? I don't want to be an r1 research professor, and I'm like, eight freakin years into this thing. Like, this is terrible news. But honestly, like, it just, it just pushes you out into the world. And you're suddenly you realize, like, you had blinders on. There's, there's millions of opportunities, and it's like, you can't get there until you've gone through the Jim Henson Company until you've sort of crested it and realized there's more out there. So what did you do? I think when

you think of a quest, like an Indiana Jones style quest, you know, Indiana Jones doesn't know what's around the next corner, right? Sometimes it's awesome. Sometimes it's scary sometimes. Yeah. And I think, you know, when you overthink that next step, it becomes really convoluted. And if you're really guessing, shouldn't really to play. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. And instead just make the right decision in the moment and have no regrets kind of moving forward. You know, I've never watched an Indiana Jones movie where Harrison Ford looks back and was like, you know, I should have taken the left like that would have been, you know, you just kind of plod through it. And so I feel like it's really important. We feel the same way about our great work our life's work. Every every step is a new adventure. I left I left the Jim Henson Company, I was kind of so disgruntled with it that I left and my wife had left before me, Elizabeth, she wasn't my wife at the time. But Elizabeth left before me. She got a job as a recruiter for for a high tech company. So she placed me as a web developer, which I did not know anything about talking about, like going on a quest. I like taught myself at home. And then like went into work. And they were like, Can you do a loop? And I was like, Yeah, I can do a loop. And then I was like, look it up. Like write a loop. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they knew they were hiring like a junior developer. So I didn't feel like I had lied or anything. And they knew I had no real experience. Anyway, so I got a job as a web developer, she placed me there, that was a cool job in the stock market photo agency. And then I got into marketing, because an old contact of mine had a he was a television producer I'd worked for in Boston, had started working at a startup, but it was the startup boom of the late 90s. And he was like, you want to come work for me. And I was like, doing what? And he was like marketing. And I was like, I don't know what that is. But you're, you're gonna pay me a lot of money like I'm in. So I went back to Boston. And that's how I got into marketing. And it really stuck. So. But again, that wouldn't have happened if I had said, Wow, what a failure the Jim Henson Company as I guess I should stick out my time because I want to be in television. And, you know, I shouldn't take I shouldn't try to learn how to web develop, you know, I like it was just the next best step. At that moment. I couldn't work at the Jim Henson Company anymore. It was like too much.

Yeah. Wow. So you went into your junior web development role, not knowing what you were doing and came out the other end? One quick quote, one of the most influential marketers in the world. Congratulations, you did it.

Thank you see, no one would have said like, this is the path you need to follow. If you want to become one of the most influential marketers in the world. All you got to do is like work in local TV. Then you should try your hand at web development for

close to your, your lifelong hero and get disgruntled. Exactly. It's like the worst game of Candyland. Ever. Yes, exactly. It's

like, go back to go. Right. Slide down the splatter. Yeah, it's, that's, I mean, that's part of the adventure. And I think, you know, like the, I think the path of being, like becoming an influential marketer, is deep seated in the idea that, like, you need to encourage yourself to be curious, you know, like, I think I got here because I was kind of annoyed by, like the lemming social culture we live in where it's like, everybody passes around the same, like five steps or 10 steps on how to do something. And then everybody thinks that's the way and it's regurgitated at conferences and events. And I like the first time this happened to me, you know, essentially, people get up and show stats about how, how search works. And I was like, you know, I don't think that's how search works like so I just showed people how search works. As a demonstration and at work, you know, people understood how search works instead of heard it. I think the second thing that kind of got me here is the time in the last 15 years, the time between consuming a piece of content and creating a piece of content has shortened right? Even in the old days, like you would read a blog post in order to share your opinion about it. You can write a comment but if you wanted to write something of substance, you had to write a blog post and then post it right. That was At least a day, I would say, if you're gonna put together a good blog post. But today, like, you can watch a tick tock video, you can have it transcribed by AI, then you can shoot the same tic tac video with the same script, and put it up in, in two minutes, like the length of time and say, and so there's not much new thought out there. Like, it's like, we're, it's like, it's like we're a bike. It's like riding a bike. You know, like, when you're riding a bike, you're both the engine, and you're the passenger, you know, and you're at the same time. And social media, I think for when it comes to New Thought has become the same thing. It's like we're the creator and the consumer at the exact same time, but there's no room for new thought and ideas. So I feel like there's a vacuum of those, it's, I think it's easier to become a forward thinking smart, intelligent person in social media today than it was 10 years ago, because all you need to do is stop just regurgitating what everybody else is saying. And I think the last thing that's gotten me here is, like, a lot of complaining people, people complain about the same things, but I don't think they look for a better solution, right? Whether that's, hey, I work at a company with a small budget, or we don't have the right resources. I think, you know, those are easy excuses for not doing your own great work, instead of actually looking at them as opportunities to be more creative. If you don't have a big budget, then how can you get creative with the budget, you have to do something no one's ever seen before. That's an opportunity, not something to come up and complain at afterwards, you know? So, so I think those three things have helped me kind of shaped my thinking, but also find new opportunities to help shape other people's thinking. Yeah. Does that make any sense? Man? No, yeah, no, it

makes a ton. It makes a ton of sense. There's a lot in there. So many interesting ideas. And I want to think about this concept of when you're the consumer and the creator in the same moment, right? There's, there's an impulse, at least to not, it's like the hack ification of creativity, right? Like, oh, I can just repeat this. And then I can get the likes and the comments, which is the metric that we're watching. And it seems like you're saying that there's another that I guess the the thing that's happening in my brain, as you're saying, that is like you're everyone's on a conveyor belt, right, like, but like a really complicated one from a cartoon where it's like, like, almost like Monsters, Inc, where the doors are all like goingaround. Yeah. And you're like, not on the conveyor belt. You're like watching it. And I think that's what makes you so innovative and interesting to listen to as a as a person who chooses wisely, who I listened to, like, I'm not really very connected to the pop culture world. But I do pay attention to almost everything you do. And I think that's because you're watching it with such an interesting perspective. Like you're off the conveyor belt. I just, I just think it's really interesting what you come up with when you're watching this. And I don't think a lot of people can disengage enough from the, the beingness of the social world to like, actually view it to perceive it to have a new thought about it. But you do do that. And I'm just curious, like,

how I mean, I think you're right, I first of all, I love the analogy, the Monsters Inc. Doors flying by analogy. I've never been able to quite explain how I do it. So maybe, maybe you're right, maybe that is how I do it. I can't let me give you a good example. Um, yeah, a few years ago, HubSpot wrote an article. So it's a big marketing platform. And they wrote an article that was very influential about the perfect length for any type of content. So, you know, it said, like a blog post, like the best link for a blog post is 826 words. I mean, literally was like,

you can imagine people like cutting one word at a time. That's

what No, that's, and that's what people were saying. And it was being shared on Facebook and Twitter and, you know, and on LinkedIn as like the gospel, like, Hey, you want to know why people aren't watching your videos, because they're more than a minute and 27 seconds long. And that's the perfect length for a video. And I think, you know, I My immediate thought was like, This can't be right. Like, this seems so stupid. And I think most people stop there. They're like, Well, I must be wrong, because I've done the research. And they must be right, right. So like, I think the difference is, I am willing to kind of step back and watch the conveyor belt, go crazy. And then start to say, like, wait a second, Where have I seen this not be true? Like, where? Where have I seen people create videos that are longer than a minute? 27 seconds that lots of people watch. And that's when I'm like, Well, I worked in television, like people will binge watch Friends, you know, 13 episodes straight, like you said in your TED Talk. Instead of go to a networking event. Like, that's okay. Like, that's funny, but it's also very true, it means they're doing something different than everybody else. And I think my willingness to kind of step back and question those the truths that everybody is either taking at face value and saying this is the truth, or they're saying, I don't believe it, but I guess it must be right, because they're the experts. I think there are two types, different types of people. And I think just taking it one step further will change your perspective, you know, you the listener, or you, the thinker, into an into a new kind of person, someone who is willing to, you know, challenge conventional wisdom and find a better way to help people understand a complicated concept, because it is easier to say, you the perfect length is a minute, 27 seconds, then to say, No, you can create a 90 minute piece of content that people will watch, but it's a lot harder, and you have to be systematic, and you have to really think about each plot point and come up with something smart. You can't just ramble for 90 minutes and watch it. So is that helpful?

Yeah, yeah, it's super helpful. And it, it's this, I think, that it takes a certain amount of confidence and some of that stuff like genetic, right, like some of us are just born confident, willing to say things with a lot of confidence, and then experience people totally buy it. And then like, we have more confidence in our confidence, right? There's a piece of that. But I also feel like some people, maybe you are, you know, have had a lived experience of seeing I mean, you've described at least three in our conversation today of like, wait, but Okay, so first of all want to like, I reached out to you right after watching this loyalty loop video that you did, where you talked about sending a letter to the head of the Jim Henson Company or something. And then like, I was, I was like, you said, You sent a letter for like, three years, you sent a letter? Is that right? Am I remembering that right? 36 years? Yeah. So first of all, there's just a lot of stubbornness in you. That is like, I don't care that it's not working well, eventually, and to death. So like, I think there's some there's confident, but then there's like a lived experience of like living your way through experience after experience where the obvious common knowledge explanation wasn't right. And you were like, That's not right. And you were right. You know?

Yeah, I think that's fair. Let me challenge them a little bit, because I don't I think the confidence comes from me finding enough other examples that I'm convinced the opposite is true. So even in that case, with the HubSpot article, I was like, okay, yeah, TV is one example. Find Drew, like, you can't just tell everybody, you know, be a TV producer, and it's gonna work like, you need to second find some social media examples that prove this is also true. And then I was within minutes, I was able to find a bunch of them like, well, that's also true, what do they have in common, and I spent, it wasn't like, I just, you know, immediately was like, You're wrong. And I'm confident enough to be like, I know, I'm right. I had gathered enough evidence over the course of a few months to be able to say, Wait a second, first of all, I see there's plenty of evidence that you don't have to make it short. Second of all, I've now dissected a few key elements that all of these have in common, both TV shows, and these videos on YouTube that are very successful. So I think if you just did this, you could make longer videos. So the confidence comes from enough evidence that I start to believe my hypothesis is true. I don't believe it's the answer. The stubbornness. It's a possibility. Yeah, exactly.

Oh, and I wasn't saying that you weren't going off half cocked with like, just the justice.

I wasn't taking it that way. No, but I just want to clarify,

because I think where your confidence hits, I think you have confidence period, right. But there's a moment where I think a lack of confidence shuts most people down, which is where they had the idea. That doesn't sound right. But then like you said, they're like, but I have to be wrong, because HubSpot Scott, like you know, like they they're the experts, and they're saying it's true, and everyone agrees. So I must be the one I must be wrong.

Right. Right. Okay. Well, let me ask you, one of your points about great work is that you need a community, right? And I can't stress how important that is. Because, you know, I don't think I'm right, always. Immediately, I'm not like, oh, my gosh, hotspot is wrong. I have friends that I call when I've got an idea like this, and I say look like did you read this article? Am I crazy to say that that's not right. And if they say, Yeah, you're crazy to say that, like I believe it, too. I say, Well, why do you believe that? And then we got to converse about it. And either I end the conversation by them coming around, and they're saying, You know what, you bring up a good point. If you have some evidence, I might believe it more. So like I have a community that helps support these crazy ideas. When in the beginning, they do sound crazy. And there are people that I check in with constantly for feedback on like the evidence I'm building and they're calm. Evidence builders that those are the people that really helped me, like solidify the idea. And they're, they're a sounding board to say true, that's crazy. Like, it's just never gonna work, come up with a better solution is kind of feedback you need, you know, you need that kind of community of people to do great work. And I don't do it alone, it may seem like it when I'm on stage talking about how to create great content, but it's certainly it's not my it's not just done by myself. I think the stubbornness is actually a really keen observation too, because I'm stubborn about giving up too early, with a lot of things. And I think most people give up too soon. It's they haven't explored the idea far enough. They haven't asked enough questions to find the true answer they were looking for. And they're like, You know what this is like, like, this is a dead end. And it's usually remember, it's a quest like, yeah, as an Indiana Jones movie, you'd be in a room and there might be steaks and you can't see a door. But he always gets out of that, right? Like he starts pushing bricks and like looking for the sand pattern or what? Same thing when you think you're stuck, and this is the end of the road, you've got to start looking for small cracks to open up a new questions that take you down a new path. And the old discover something you never thought was, like relevant or interesting or even new. And all of a sudden, it's like it shed a new light. And so the stubbornness, I think is much more just a, an unending belief that I'm still not at the answer. Right, right. Well, I think I have the answer. You know what I mean? Yeah, well,

and I think probably an understanding that the answer comes in pieces over a long time, right? Because you're, you're the most, one of the most influential marketers in the world. And marketing is a massive field, right? It's got all kinds of pieces. And so when you understand expertise, and you're an expert, and you've been building expertise over a lifetime, on a quest, that you know, is never going to end. It's also like you pick up a piece here, and you pick up a piece there. And it's all just more and more pieces to a bigger and bigger understanding of, of whatever it is you're studying.

So true. Yeah. I mean, it has been a really good adventure. And yeah, it's never ending. It's I feel like the next, you know, the next adventure is right around the corner.

Yeah. Sounds like, so that's a good question. And if you don't have an answer to it, like, I'm not going to push for it, but I am curious, like, what is the next big adventure for you? Because you've, you've landed on stages. So what where do you feel like you're heading

you know, the, those are just a byproduct, like, all those things are just a byproduct. I think the new adventure is always the next idea. The next thing that will inspire people to be more creative, or to do more with less or to go on their own adventure. And so I like next year, I want to spend a lot of time working on understanding how influence really works. Like, you know, I think there's a, I don't know how it works. But when it comes to looking for ideas, like it's something that bothers me, it bothers me that I don't think we know how it works. And I think we pay influencers a lot of money. And we're not sure why. And I'm not sure if they actually move markets. And so I really want to truly understand how decisions are being made and how people are influenced by others, in a way that, you know, certainly from a marketing perspective, we could leverage better and, and understand, but just more importantly, even help other creators who want to be influencers, truly understand how it works, instead of just them worrying about the vanity metrics, which are talked about earlier. Because, you know, I, I feel like true influence is about changing the way you think not just changing what you buy. And I think the best influencers do that. And so there's an opportunity to really build something special. So I'm working on the influence pyramid,

that's when the influence pyramid love it, yeah, to try to try

to dissect how it works. And I've got some ideas, but again, it's like, it's another adventure. It's a new quest that I spend a lot of time thinking about, and calling my friends and talking about and trying to, you know, express my own unique point of view and, you know, organize all the thoughts and the, you know, the ideas into the bigger body of work, but also into a body of work itself.

You know, it's interesting, because you we started this conversation about how your great work is helping other people have the courage or have the information or have the starting point to launch themselves on a quest they may not have gone on, right? And then looking at your work, which I don't pretend to know all of it, but like the loyalty loop being something that is really about helping people understand that there is a quest to be had there. It's like a call to a quest, right? Don't just give people you know, a little like, don't be satisfied with with a little bit of engagement. See if you can get people to actually join you on your quest, right? Yes, that's right. Exactly. Another one of those that's really a call to a different way of engagement. Right? It's like another deepening of engagement. So that's really interesting.

I think they're all everything's been on a same kind of theme, like, how can I earn people's trust? I mean, in the collective i as marketers, and as people in general, how can we earn more trust? How can we earn trust faster? How can we build deeper relationships that are meaningful? And sure, yes, they inspire people to buy things at the end of the day. But more importantly, it's a deep, real relationship that you can leverage for all the right reasons. On both sides, you know, like, you're providing value, and they're getting that. So and I, and honestly, that did start at the Jim Henson Company, I mean, learning and truly understanding how you can inspire people create content that was so good, that inspired people to buy stuff is the number one lesson I learned there. I mean, it's just a genius idea.

Yeah, that is a genius idea. So okay, so I have a question for you. Which is, yeah, you've been doing this work. And it's clearly you have a ton of joy doing it. You're just you're just like a, you know, maybe you get tired, but I've never seen it like a you're like a lit up person when you're talking about. There were a lot of naps? Like, on or off like a robot. Yes, exactly. I love it. So as you look back on the history, like what's one of the most joyful experiences you've had doing this, like, tell us a story, the most joyful experience you loved, personally,

oh, my gosh, that I loved. I am not sure. I can pick one, I get, I get a lot of tremendous joy. Okay, here, I get joy out of the individual stories I hear when, especially after I've spoken somewhere where someone two or three or four months later will call me or I'll see them at another event. And they'll tell me, oh my gosh, you inspired me to change the way I do something. And it worked. And I'm now doing it all the time. So I'll give you a quick example. I was just this is like the most recent one. I was just in an event where I delivered my it's one of my newest speeches called the cube of creativity. And it's all about kind of embracing constraints, and leveraging four constraints to come up with better, more creative solutions faster. And it's really, really a fun speech. And I delivered the speech at an event. The woman came up laughs was like, This was great, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Like, I'm gonna try it. And I said, Well, look, if you try it, let me know. And she's like, I'm going to and a lot of people say that, but I don't hear from them. And it's not like I want to follow up and be like you said, you're gonna try it. Yeah, so I just assumed that either didn't work, or they never got to it, which is okay. But she emailed me like three weeks later. And she's like, I just got back from vacation. And I use the cube of creativity before I left, and I want to tell you about it because it's transformed my entire business. And I had the best vacation I've had in a long time, she's runs a small business. So I was like, wow, really. So I called her up. And she explained essentially that she she hired a new employee, like two weeks before going on vacation. And she used the cube of creativity to frame the way she was going to work with this person. And to frame the work they did together. And within two weeks, this woman was up and running. And she could go on a vacation and not worry about a thing. She wasn't contacted once while she was on vacation. Wow. And she attributes the success to the cube of creativity the way they set up the project. And I was so happy like that. That is the legacy I want to leave like lasting change that has actually helped someone transform the way they do business in a way that's meaningful for them using a framework or an idea that I presented. And how I presented or wherever presented doesn't really matter. But the impact does. And that's what I really, truly enjoy. That's

great. That's wonderful. I love it. So the impact the impact that you're having on people. It's

one of the reasons Yeah, it's one of the reasons I had trouble with doing virtual sessions. Because during COVID When we're doing virtual presentations, the feedback I would get from the audience was fine, right? It was like that was a great presentation, but I got far less personal interaction with people that led to kind of personal stories, and maybe they did do stuff, but I found it less and less gratifying.

Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't doubt that. Well, I think one of the entries my last observation Have you proven like hearing it you for years. I find that you do things that are like these proof points that you're a real human who cares about real humans? Like I was recently on your website, I guess preparing for this and I noticed that you have something called an honor or an hour of honesty set. Some of that's honest, our honest, honest hour, where you can just call you and talk about something.

Anything. You know what's so funny? We live in an age where people are so skeptical like I had someone reach out to me yesterday. it, who said they signed up for an honest hour. But when they originally sent me the email, they said, Hey, I read about this honest hour thing. What's the catch? I was like, What do you mean? What's the catch? Because it's pay what you want. And they were like, well, it's pay what you want. Like, what's the catch? And I was like, there's no catch, like, you sign up for an hour. And like, if it's valuable to you, like pay what you want, but that means yes, you could pay nothing. Like, if you don't get any value out of the hour, I totally get it. Like, let's have a chat, though. So this is from a person who signed up for three honest hours now and really loves it. But, you know, it's, I think it comes down to the like, that's another example of doing something that is totally counterintuitive, but I spent a lot of time researching, like pay what you want is actually a genius business model for a service provider. They're like, they're great examples in chiropractors use, pay what you want. And it's unbelievable how successful it is. shoeshine stores use pay what you want is unbelievably successful. So I just was like, You know what, I'm going to try it and see if it's successful. And I read a bunch of academic research about it. And it's just great. It's because it reduces all the concerns that the prospect has, I get total joy out of it, because I feel like, you know, it's pay what you want. Like, if you don't find any value, that's okay. I had a good conversation for an hour. But it's also proved to be, you know, far more profitable than I expected, because people pay more for my time than I ever expected. And so it's a it's kind of a really gratifying proof point that I'm worth more than I thought I was worth, which is really nice.

Yeah. And you're worth so much anyways. Yeah, well,

I would think I'd like to think I am. But it's so nice to have all other people think the same?

Yes, absolutely. Well, I really appreciate your time. This was such a great conversation, you such an interesting brain, I like to talk to it. So thank you so much. How, let's assume that like, hundreds of people at this point are like, Who is that guy? How can I learn more about him and his ideas and maybe get an honest hour?

How do they do? They can find me on LinkedIn is the best way like I'm on LinkedIn a lot. So just search for Andrew Davis and the loyalty loop and you'll find me. You can find me on youtube search Andrew Davis in the loyalty loop, and you'll find me and subscribe there. So you can watch my loyalty live videos. And if you want to check out my website and sign up for an honest hour, you certainly can. It's aka Drew davis.com, like also known as drew Davis.

Love it. Well, I want to encourage all of you to go do those things. As I As previously mentioned, I do not enjoy YouTube, but I watch almost every loyalty. Thank you.

Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for coming.

Keep doing your great work.