Great Work From The Inside Out with Tammy Gooler Loeb | UYGW037

My real mission is to help people find that more fulfilling, meaningful and satisfying place to make the best use of the best years of their lives.

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist, coach, author of the book, great work, and the creator of the great work journals. Every week on this podcast, we're here asking the big questions. What is your great work? How do you find it? And why does it matter? Whether we do it? What does it actually take to do more of your great work without sacrificing everything else? And how does the world change when more people are doing more of the work that matters the most to them? Stay tuned for answers to these questions, and so much more.

Welcome, everybody to unleashing your great work. Today, I am so excited to have my friend Tammy Gooler Loeb, who is the author of the wonderful book work from the inside out, breaking through the nine common obstacles to design a career that fulfills you. She's a career and executive coach and a speaker who inspires people to design their careers using their self knowledge and experience the Inside Out approach to get the lives they have always wanted. Welcome to the podcast. Tammy,

thank you so much. I am so excited to be here with you, Amanda, thank you.

Yes, I'm excited to hear all about your great work. So why don't we just start there. Tell us a little bit about your great work.

So I will, you know, I was reflecting on the the four components of great work. And my unique point of view. And one of the things that I love about the four points is the natural curiosity inside of us what you talk about with that, and I have always had a natural curiosity about what makes people tick. And what makes people choose the work that they choose. And over the years, I've always been one of those people who wants to know what people do for work. And I'm especially intrigued when I come across people who seem to be unhappy at work or don't like what they do. And I noticed that right, I started to do the math. And I realized, you know that we spend more time at work in our adult lives than we do with our families, sleeping or anything else. So my great work is all about helping people make the best use or I should say, and it's not my definition of what the best use would be it would be their definition. But my my real mission is to help people find that more fulfilling, meaningful and satisfying place to make the best use of the of the best years of their lives. Because we start our relationship with work, usually in our teenage years. And this in this day and age, most of us are working well into our 60s and beyond. And if we're just doing it just to make a buck, or whatever form of currency we we deal with. I find that to be kind of unfortunate, I think that we live in a time when work should have some elements of satisfaction and meaning to it. I understand people have practical considerations in their lives. I'm not suggesting that people throw that all out the window, and just find their dream job. That's not what I'm talking about. But I think that there are ways to find something in your work that really does fill you from the inside out. And so that's what I call my great work is to help other people really find that part of themselves that can then express that through their work and that work and life don't have to be such separate parts, that they really can be mutually satisfying. So that's how I capture my great work. I like

it, and what would you say are the consequences of not aligning your work to that voice that natural curiosity?

I would say the consequences of that are probably well, the the thing that I I often will talk to people about is when they when they engage me would be Imagine yourself on your deathbed. Are you going to be glad that you spent All that time at that job that really didn't, you know, fulfill you, rather than going home at night, if you were now I realized we're at a time where a lot more people are not going out to work. But still, let's say the proverbial going to a job or doing some type of work to make a living and feeling like, let's say, towards the end of your life, and you say, Gee, I wished I had spent another 10 years at that job doing that, especially away from my family or away from the other things that were important to me. So I think that what happens for a lot of people is they look back on that, and they, and they say, I wished I had listened to that voice in my head that said, I really, I could have made some changes, I could have done some things differently. Rather than glad that's over with

me right, day after day. So how do you help people? What do you think are the sort of blockers to people listening to that voice? And how do you help them overcome that resistance?

Well, I think there are a number of blockers, I think that a lot of us myself, and well, I wouldn't say myself included, because I was always encouraged to look for something that would be meaningful and fulfilling for me. But I would say that I grew up at a time where I was surrounded by adults, and well intentioned people who would, who either grew up during or lived as adults during the Depression era. So that was a very different time, when Yeah, you needed to keep a roof over your head and food on the table. And that's all that mattered. And being happy at work was definitely not a priority. So, you know, that was a period of time that had a great influence, I think on a lot of people. And you think about, you know, the the early 1900s, the rise of the industrial era, it really was about just feeding your family. So I understand that that's deeply ingrained in our culture. And it's not just American, I've talked to people from all kinds of cultures. So I think that that runs very deep through lots of people, I see lots of people in my generation, who are who are teaching their children? Well, you know, you need to get a real job. What does that mean? A real job or or to be successful? What does that mean? And so those messages are coming across around? How much money do you make? Are you creating some sense of financial stability? Now, not everybody's being raised that way, but I would say that the majority of people are being raised, or there's something in many cultures around creating that kind of stability above and beyond anything else that looks like going after the thing that might give you a sense of joy, pleasure, happiness, satisfaction, fulfillment. So I think that we're often taught to put those things on the back burner, or at least second to financial well being and stability. Well, the fact of the matter is, the only thing that is certain, and it's just become that much more clear now is the only thing that is certain is uncertainty. And in in my opinion, the best thing we can do for ourselves is, is really figure out how do we deal with uncertainty. And I think that that means being far more in charge of your career, and not assuming that an employer is going to take care of you. And I don't mean to demonize employers, because I think there's some great employers out there. But the world is far more, it's always been uncertain. Life is uncertain, but it's even more so more unstable in that way. So knowing that you really have to have a plan A, A, plan B, and a plan C. So plan A can be your ideal plan. Plan B can be the plan that you have, where you have, let's say six to eight months worth of living expenses set aside so that if things don't work out, you know how you're going to take care of yourself. And Plan C is okay, I need to bring in some cash. How am I gonna bring in cash and take care of things? So I'm very practical. But I think that too many people think oh, all I need is a full time job with benefits and I'll be okay. And I've seen people get hired somewhere. And within a month, the company is acquired and they're out of a job again. Yeah. And they're not prepared for that. They're not prepared for that kind of instability. So, again, I'm not trying to sound like You know, the sky is falling all the time. But at the same time, these are part of the realities of the world we live in. And so why not, you know, have contingencies, but go after and get to know yourself in ways and know what, what kind of life do you really want to be living. And it's a holistic view. And I know this isn't for everyone. But I also know that too many people rest too heavily on assuming their employers always going to be there and provide something steady and stable for them.

Right. And, you know, in fairness, just, of course, as you mentioned, right after the Great Depression, there was a moment, it's interesting, because people talk about it as though it was always that way, right? People with like, unions and protections, and your company would like contribute to your future, and you could be accompany man. But that was like, if anything, though, the most unusual moment in our world history of humanity's interaction with the loss, you know. And, of course, this is a, as you mentioned, like, it's a really different time, like, companies are not committed to long term employment for their employees, they almost can't be. And so it does come down to you know, and we can lament it, for sure. And there are losses associated with it. But the idea that someone will manage your career and take care of you is, is isn't possible. So given that, how do you because I know that you do this help people feel not sort of like they missed that one moment in history when it could have been okay, but instead get excited about the idea of, of discovering their unique contribution or their work that is emerging from them, how do you help them overcome? What is a fairly natural feeling of like, you know, I got hosed, right, like, my parents were okay. And now I'm not going to be and that's not fair. And that's what's wrong. As opposed to, you know, here I am, with the opportunity to do something that I would find meaningful, and not having to have be sort of tethered to those expectations could be a good thing. How do you help people shift their mindset?

Well, that's exactly you just almost answered my question. Because the first thing you have to do is help people shift their mindset. And if they can't move away from that mindset, then they're they're going to continue to just feel wronged or feel like a victim of circumstances. So there are a number of ways I help people through that I try to point out what you know, in coaching, we call them reframes. You know, so one of the ways that I talk with people about that is, you know, I try to keep the terms pretty, pretty plain, because there's no point in going into a lot of, you know, coach speak, right? Sure. So we talk about things like, okay, let's talk about what you have control over, and what you don't have control over. And we start with what you do have control over. And then we we kind of walk through that step by step. And hopefully choose a couple of forward steps they can take so that they can start to feel more in control, because a lot of the things that start to make people feel either bitter, or just not good about the conditions of what's going on is they feel like they don't have any control over what's going on. And they don't know what to do to get control. So the first thing we try to do is figure out what can you do to get control? So there's, there's a number of things that we look at in that direction. I think what's part and parcel to that is to help them start to see what are some of the things they can do to get control but but also helping them to get more connected with themselves. And what they might like to do, because most people I think are very practiced and rehearsed almost Yeah. At looking at what's out there. They'll say, Oh, well, I was looking around out there to see what's available right now. And I'll say, Well, what did you do? Well, you know, I went on to indeed or I went, you know, onto this side or that side? Oh, so they're looking at job postings, many of which may not even be real postings, or might be outdated. And there's so they're out there looking at jobs to see how they can fit into something. And, you know, it's not a terrible thing to do, but it's a very limited view of what might be available. And it's It's they're looking to see how they can fit themselves into something, rather than first determining what do I want? And what do I want to do, because no one's ever really had them think that way. So you know, it's not their fault, they've never been asked to think that way about things. Now, of course, if they're having this conversation with me in the first place, it has occurred to them that maybe they have to take charge a little bit more of the situation, the people who are really, really stuck, and feeling really trapped or feeling really like a victim of circumstance and can't see their way around it or out of it, often aren't even calling me or getting in touch with me, you know, I can see it on their faces, even if they I meet them somewhere informally. And I tell them what I do, or they asked me and now I start to talk about it, I can see their body language shift, you know, they almost pull away, or they kind of look a little glazed over. Some, some people can't even see their way through to that notion of, of taking charge of things. But then there are some people who really get curious and intrigued by it and want to hear more and want to at least entertain the idea of starting to get more information. And I think that's a very important point I want to make sure to stay is that more often than not? When people are feeling stuck? It's because they don't have the information they need. And that's the first place to go. So that's the key to just getting curious is just get more information, you don't have to find all the exact answers right away. You just need more information.

So a first step for somebody who feels stuck, and maybe a little resistant to these ideas would be to get your book and read it. And see,

I think your book in my book,

our books, yes, both books. Yeah,

to say that, because I think your book is an amazing resource. And, and yes, I agree is my book, but I think my book is is very helpful to people in especially if they're feeling stuck in a certain way. And they're really anxious to start to figure out how can I see around those things that are getting in the way? And what kinds of resources can I access to really help me start to put one foot in front of the other, because not only do I name, what some of the obstacles might be, but I give stories of real people who've actually moved beyond some of those obstacles. But then I also offer people reflective questions and activities they can engage in. And then in the back of the book, there are resources that can also lead you to further information, and things that people can, can engage with to get more information and get them to those next steps. So I really tried to not just give people things to think about, but actually things they can actually do and engage with to get them to those next steps.

Yeah. Well, and one of the things that I think people don't talk about enough, because it's often when we're, this is a conversation that's being had in the zeitgeist of careers right now. Right? Like, what does it mean to manage your own career and, and one of the things I think, isn't really talked about as much as it's sort of like this, like, well, now we have to manage our own careers, and we have to be a brand and it's sort of this defeatist feeling. And I feel like what's missing from that conversation is the competitive advantage of being excited and interested, if you show up at a job interview, clear about who you are clear about that, you know, you have to also be clear about the company, because you're not going to come in here and change it. Right? Right, you have to join it. But when you're clear about yourself, and you're clear about your strengths, and you're clear about your interests there, they can figure out how to fit you in. If you're vague, and, and not as clear, not as edge, right not, then. To them, it feels like it's gonna be a lot of work to figure out maybe where you fit. And then you really have to be exactly the right fit they're looking for. Whereas when you're a person who's got a lot of like, forced to who you are, you know, you are, you're interested, you're curious. People will make a space for you often. So there's,

there's another piece to that recipe, then you just, I love the ingredients you just named, I like to think about things in recipes. The other the other part of the recipe is that you can also be clear about what you don't know and what you're serious about. So that so that the employer can see that you're more than willing to learn that you're more than willing to be flexible that you're more than one willing to be to coined the phrase it's used a lot now is agile, which is, you know, has very specific applicability in certain ways, but also in the generic sense of agile, right? That you're that you're willing to learn that you're willing to be a team player not to sound too trite about that, but that, you know, that you that you, you know that you have certain qualities or characteristics to give the employer a sense of who you are, and what you're like to work with, not just what your strengths are in terms of your skills, but, but but your, your character, because oftentimes, they're they're hiring a person, not just a bucket of skills, for

sure. For sure, especially in today's rapidly changing job market. They know if they're hiring you in, you need to be able to do this job and the job you're going to be reordered into in a few months. Yeah. Well, so this is a difficult shift for people, I think, and you know, for different reasons. But I'm curious about your personal experience with it. Was this something that you had to was this a shift you had to make? And if so, like, how did you do it personally?

Well, I made several shifts over the years, I started off in the nonprofit arena and community mental health. And then and then I got disillusioned and burnt out, I went through a few rounds of burnout. Because, you know, when you're younger, you put your heart and soul into everything, I still put my heart and soul into everything, but I'm old enough to know when to curb it so that I don't get too burned out. Yeah. And, and so I, you know, I I, but I always followed some thread around what I was interested in. And, and so I was always searching for something that I really felt like had a had a future for me and where I was going.

Okay, but I feel a little bit more about that. Because I want to hear the like, I want to you say you know, I was I followed a thread I was something that had a future like, what does that feel like, tell us you sample of a sure thing that you felt your way

towards. So as as I'll go back to my undergrad, I knew I went to school, knowing what I wanted or thinking I knew what I wanted, which is not true for every 18 year old. True, but I really I wanted to study psychology, I wanted to I planned I went to a school where you created your own major. I did not want to be told what I had, what I could study and how to study it. I didn't want to deal with a lot of requirements. So

also not so typical of an 18 year old, but themselves.

I was there a lot of ways I wasn't typical. So I went to Hampshire College. And it was there were no grades and no tests there either. It was great. It was hard work, too. Yeah. So I had to do a lot of writing and a lot of projects. And a lot of critical thinking was very hard. But it was exactly what I needed to do. I crafted my undergraduate studies so that I would qualify and be ready for a Ph. D, a master's Ph. D. program in clinical psychology. That is not where I ended up. But that's what I thought I wanted. Or I learned about what was what that entailed. I realized that wasn't what I wanted. But what I thought it was was I thought it was a career that would involve doing, you know, direct service, working with people who were struggling, whose quality of life was difficult because of whatever mental or emotional issues they were struggling with. Now, there is an element of clinical psychology that deals with that. But the education pathway for that did not interest me because there was a lot of research and quantitative pieces of that that didn't interest me. At least that's the way I looked at it. So, so that but that thread was it was all about, I always wanted to work with people and help people improve their quality of life. To put it to put it very plainly. I ended up in community mental health and in doing counseling, not not as a clinician, though, just in a very sort of generic sense. And, but then I got curious about public policy because I was working in a publicly funded program that was underfunded. Okay, who's making all these decisions about how these programs get funded and how these people are being given services? So I moved from Western Massachusetts to Boston. And I had some connections in Boston, I got a job in the mayor's office doing public health and human services policy work. And that was amazing was an absolutely amazing work. It was also a very heavily political environment. Yeah. And I did that for four years. That almost that again, so the community mental health work got burnt out. Yeah, politics, I was definitely worn. And then I learned I did a lot of grant writing, also, while I was working in City Hall. So I, I also went back to school and got an MBA, because I wanted to know, what makes organizations run How does an organization run? Well, because from both jobs, I also saw how organizations that were trying to do good work, were also struggling. And what how can you run an organization? Well to do good work? So everything revolved around this whole idea of how do you help people who need different kinds of help? I was still that thread was still there. Yeah. So that's when I got the MBA. And from there, I ended up doing fundraising because I wanted to support these programs that were struggling with their funding. Yeah. Well, fundraising took me totally away from really working with people. Yeah. So after several years of that, I ended up in higher ed administration, which was really more of a part time job I took while I found coaching, ha,

ha, the golden egg, a golden egg, golden egg,

or the pot of gold. Yeah, coaching was very young. This is over 20 years ago, coaching was a very young field. And I heard about coaching. And it was like, Ah, this is it. Because I thought at that point, I thought maybe I needed another Master's degree. But I knew I needed something, because fundraising wasn't doing it for me. But I knew I needed to get back to more direct work with people. When I heard about coaching, I thought, Okay, this is it. And I also knew I didn't like working under an organization or for other people, I was not a great, I wasn't a great employee. I did not like taking direction from people. But that had nothing to do with the thread that just had to do with who I

write, that's a little piece of self expertise, that I love how well you let that guide you. It did. And that your choice of an undergraduate, and ultimately to coaching.

It did and it grew out of my MBA program where I started taking court, you know, electives and things like organizational behavior and organizational consulting and things like that. So out of that grew a very good three day a week job as a higher ed administration. person running, I was running a program at Tufts University in community health, which was great. It was a great opportunity. Did that for several years, while I built my coaching practice, nice once the coaching practice picked up, then I did that full time. And okay.

You said that so casually. And I want I want to just look at that moment. Sure. Once your coaching got full time, that had to be a big moment for you to leave the three days a week behind. Talk to us about that moment. How did you know? How did you have the courage to do that? Because I do think like, that's a great example of, on this podcast, at least, people who are doing these things that come from inside of them, many of them have that moment, where they're like, I now have to walk away from the thing that was working from the thing that gave me the stability that we're all so ingrained to want to go. And sometimes it's from jumping from one company to another or switching careers. It's not always starting a business and going full time. Right. But it's always hard. So tell us a little bit about that.

Okay, so that's a very, very good question. So what happened around that time, so I was coaching but I was also interested in doing group facilitation work. And I was starting to get some work doing facilitation work in schools. And that was starting to turn out to be those returning into contracts that were year long contracts. And that was building up. So that was providing a little bit of a base. So what I have managed to do for the most part throughout these 20 plus years, is always have a A few contracts that provided a base of let's say, between 15 and 20% of my revenue. Okay, now that's less than three days a week at a job. But I have always tried to have something that provides some kind of steady like an anchor. In anchor, I called it I called it a financial anchor. So now, let let me be clear about one other thing here. I am married, I have a husband who makes a full time salary and brings in benefits. So that was, and he was supportive of me doing this. Right. So that was also an end, he doesn't mind working a regular job like that. Right? So two incomes, one less, one less stable, one extremely stable. He was, as these things go, he was in a very stable situation. So, you know, I did when I say these things easily, there wasn't anything easy about it. But it was easier than if I had been completely on my own. I was I had a life partner who was making a good salary. And we could we could take that chance. I mean, it wasn't that we didn't need me to work we did. But we had enough flexibility with his working and his bringing benefits that I could do this.

Yeah, that's, it's a very important point, and is an important point. It's critical. It's a point of privilege. And it's important to know. Absolutely. And it's a huge moment of courage in your life. Because I'm sure that all those things were true in the time before you were willing to consider going full time. And yet there was still that leap.

Well, we had we had a young child at the time when I when I went full time as well. And yeah, you know, that was, of course, that added to the feeling of riskiness. But I have said all these years that if for some reason, we were compromised in any way I would still be working for myself, I would just have to, I might have to take different clients, I might have to do some things differently, I might have to make other choices. I don't know, I haven't had to do that. Not to say that I haven't taken work, just because it paid well, there are times when I did, and that maybe I took certain things because it you know, paid a certain amount. You know, I think the choices I make now 20 plus years down the road versus earlier are obviously different. But I've expanded the kinds of things I do you know, it's changed over time. It's not, it's not just one thing all these years. So, and that's what I love about coaching is that there are a number of different things that that I've done with it. Yeah, you know.

And so it's I mean, you said just a second ago, you said, even if we were compromised, I would still be working for myself, right? That's what I say, well, and let's take it as truth, right? Let's take it because it's

my intention, it reflects a piece of

self knowledge that has that you have allowed to guide your career. And it's sort of speaks to the kind of a two legged nugget of the resistance that we started our conversation talking about, right? Like what are the shifts that people have to actually allow, in order to get to a place where they can feel excited and courageous and willing and open to doing it in this new way that you and I and lots of people in our positions are saying, this is the actual way to get what you want. And that over there is a paper tiger, it's a house of cards, it's gonna fall apart on you. It's only a matter of time and if it doesn't, it's because you were lucky. So many, you know, so many

be about luck. So would you like to share that philosophy?

I do. I I look people I hear people talk about you know, you were just lucky as if you had no control over it. There are there are elements of that. But I think that I mean there are times where I will say I've been very fortunate. That's different from luck. Okay, luck is something you step into, and I'm not talking about dog poop. Okay, when they say you stepped in good luck, but but Um, I'm talking about, you know, there are a lot of times when people have good luck, or they say, Oh, you were lucky, it's like, you have to show up for it, you have to show up, you have to recognize when it happens. And most people I see who've been lucky, it's because they showed up. And they recognized it and they allowed it in. I think there's a, there's a piece of luck that you have control over, because you have to recognize it and allow it in.

I agree with that. And I think that's in the space of when you do start to show up and get open and talk to people and tell them what you want and allow them to offer you what you want. Right? Like that's that. I was saying that your if you are able to move into a job, like there are people right in public service jobs, right, they come into they work for the government, they leave when they and they'd have left the government and they were it was stable, and what they were probably pretty unhappy. I mean, the vast majority people I know, in those jobs, you can do it. It's not like it's false, that you can write work in a stable job and retire from that job and not be totally broke at the end of your life. Right? And it's really a question of, of what you want. And what we're talking about is, is a life of meaning and purpose that you can also have that is also possible, right. And if you happen across that, then you're fortunate, most of us have to show up for it, as you said. And if you happen into that, you're very fortunate as you have been. So what I would like to hear from you, is about the joy of your great work, what is it that makes you say, or at least set the intention that even if you were compromised, you would continue to work for yourself, there's something about this thread something about this that feels to you, like it's worth it, kind of no matter what, so what is it? What is the joy in what you're doing?

Well, there's a few things. So first of all, I have to walk my talk. So if I'm not being true to myself, and I'm not working in a way that if I'm not, if I'm not working from the inside out, how can I ask anybody else to. So my inside out, for me is to work within my own values and integrity. And I believe that working for myself, involves that and working as a coach and helping my clients find their most fulfilling or satisfying place at work is, is that work, and that can look like so many different things, so many different things. It's not, there's not, there's not any one mold that that would fit into. And it can look very different at different stages of people's lives, too. So that joy extends from me feeling that I'm centered and grounded within myself. And then I'm, I'm living the best life I can live. And the best isn't perfect. And it could change from from week to week in some respects. And that my clients are also working on that themselves. So you know, one of the things that gives me the greatest joy is, when I hear from a former client. Sometimes it could be seven, eight years later, they'll get in touch with me and they'll tell me about a situation they were in at work. And they heard my voice in their head, well, that makes me cringe a little bit first. And then But then when they tell me what it is how they address the situation, or how they moved forward in a particular situation, or where what they're doing at this moment, and how our work together. Way back when changed the way they handled that situation to their, you know, for the for the for the better for them. And now if we hadn't done what we did back then they know they would have ended up making a decision that wasn't in their best interest. But maybe it would have looked better to other people or would have been something somebody else would have wanted them to do. And they just felt like they had to let me know that. There's nothing that feels better than that. Yeah, like know when they can own they can really own what they've done. It's not it's not like they're saying, oh, you know, Tammy, you did this. It's more like I can own this now. Yeah, I have the tool As I need to go forward, and that, to me is the best thing of all. It's not about someone just changing jobs or changing careers or finding a new job. It's it's that people can go forward with the tools and the self knowledge to live their lives in a way where they know themselves better and can be truer to themselves in that way, that that's really what it's about.

Yeah, that's great. That's a great segue, actually, to the final question, which is this, people have been listening and curious and like probably intrigued by what you've been saying. And if somebody is, you know, unsatisfied with their career or possibly looking for another job, and they think they might like to talk to you about that, how would you recommend they do that?

They can look me up on my website on LinkedIn, I am easy to find, because I believe there's no other Tammy, cooler lobe in the world, in the world, in the world. So Tammy, cooler, lobe.com. Very easy to find Tammy, cooler lobe on LinkedIn, I always welcome people to reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn, they can say they heard me on your show, and reach out and ask a question or ask for a complimentary consultation. Yeah, happy to talk to people,

I would like to add my personal recommendation that you do that. And if you're uncertain, I would recommend that you hop on over to the Amazon machine and get a copy of work from the inside out. It really is a great, I think it's a great read. And it really, I feel like it resonates so strongly with the way that you were talking on this podcast. It's very, you're very authentic across both mediums. So you can have a really good sense of what it might be like to work with Tammy by reading her book. And then you come to that complimentary consultation ready to ask her questions and maybe get yourself moved forward and unstuck, which I think would be great. So thank you so much, Tammy, for being on the podcast. I think you added a lot to the conversation.

Well, thank you for your great questions about great work, because great questions about great work. You. Do. You pulled it all out. I mean, you did a great job, Amanda.

Thanks. And thank you for your time. Thanks.