To Be Love in Leadership - Stephen McGhee

Welcome to The Ultimate Coach podcast conversations from being inspired by the book, The Ultimate Coach, written by Amy Hardison, and Alan Thompson. Join us each week with the intention of expanding your state of being, and your experience will be remarkable. Remember, this is a podcast about be it is a podcast about you. To explore more deeply visit the ultimate Coach book.com. Now, enjoy today's conversation from be

Hello, Stephen, how are you? It's been a while.

You had a few minutes before we hopped onto the recording here. It's been a while and a lot of that we both discovered that a lot of life has happened since we've seen each other. It's good to see you.

Good to see you. Your energy feels great. By the way. I love your state of being. Ah,

sounds like a good topic for today. Or something like that. Yeah, sounds appropriate. I mean, isn't it amazing when two people come together that are present. And not to go off on a tangent, but there's I think do there's like this third space, I call it the third space. And so you and I have a unique presence to get we have our own presence. You're bringing your presence and bringing mine and there's a creation that I call the third space that gets created from our presence and that that's so potent to feel that like the synergy of two people being present together, right?

Yeah, I literally could like feel that in my soul as you were bringing my awareness to that. Yeah.

Well, it's what you do. This is what you do day in and day out. I think whether you're with a client or interviewing someone like this on a podcast or being with your girls. Yeah, there's the space that we have that is unique. And I love the uniqueness of

that. Yeah, definitely. And as you mentioned, clients, I'm thinking about you, and how long you've been in the leadership space, and how you've elevated the souls of leaders. Tell me, what is it that they're seeking when they come to you?

Well, like all of us, I think people have what they think they're seeking, which is often an automatic kind of dialogue, or something that's familiar, right, that I think I want. And then there's what we really want that an authentic self level. And so in my work, and I think, like in your work, this work of elevation of the soul, or evolution of the soul, it's like, Alright, let's get beyond the layers of what I think I want and get into the heart of the matter of what I really want. And so peoples often think to answer your question, you know, they might think they're seeking more on the goal line, which of course, there's nothing wrong with like, you know, accumulation on the physical level of wealth, or a larger business, or a new position, or a degree or a new relationship, or all of these things that are extrinsic. And, again, that's part of the journey, but in the conversations with me, oftentimes, we'll get into what's underneath all that, which is really something even more simple, which can be just presents, I want to be joyful, I want to be happy, I want to I want to be generous with my spirit. So and, and the beautiful thing about that, as you know, is when a person steps into that presence, then these results, these go line, things become more graceful and attaining, so it's not about not wanting those things or anything like that. It's just about what's the approach?

Yeah, that's true. It's like, I love how you you identify that they're coming to you with a in a certain mind space. And you you take them into their heart and soul space, so that they find out what they don't know. That's what I heard you say?

Yeah, and and I think you know, so for me, of course, There's no part of me that would inflict on anybody what I think that they want. Like, that's not for me to do. But it is for me to be present in a way of listening that I can hear not just the content of what somebody wants, but what's the contextual nature of what that person really wants as a presencing, which is why I'm so stoked that you're leading these podcasts, and that this whole movement is been inspired and seems like, in a way it has a life of its own right.

Being movement is just exactly what you said. It definitely has a life of its own. And in such a beautiful way, I would say it's, it's viral. But it's the kind of virus that people actually want and require. And, and it's inspired by someone we love so deeply. You know, Steve Hardison, yeah. How did you meet him?

Well, the like any Steve Hardison story, there's the long version in there.

45 minutes.

shorter version of the longer version is I was a student at the University of Santa Monica, and graduated in 2002. And there's a ritual at the university at the end of the year, there's a student of the year. And so in 2002, I was chosen as the Student of the Year. And 2001, Steve Hardison was chosen as the student of the year. So he did a five minute speech at my graduation, which I talked about in the book. And the speech was really one of presence. There wasn't any real content in the speech. In fact, I think of the five minutes as I recall, Steve stood on the stage and said nothing, but just beamed his loving out into the audience. And so I think the final words of his very short speech was something like I love you. Any minute, and I heard those words and felt those words, and I had to meet and so I met. And we have been in each other's orbit ever since. Going back to 2002.

Wow. 20 years? Yeah. It's amazing.

I celebrate that I celebrate. All the years and some years, there's been more of Steve Hardison in my orbit than other years, but he's always been there, if that makes any sense.

He's always there, right? Because his love is so big. And you know, we're not really separated anyway, we're all part of the oneness. Some of us have a bigger presence of love than others. And so I would say that, even though he's somewhere in some desert in Arizona, we fill in wherever we are in the world, right? For sure. And that's yeah, that's what my experience of being has been. So would you say that? That's when you you were more aware of who you were being? And was it more inspired from your studying at the university? Or what's it in the conversations that I'm sure that you've had over the years? He was your coach at one point?

Yeah, we did two different agreements together. And, you know, I think one of the things and I think Steve would echo this is, you know, he demonstrates something that I just vibed with, you know, it and other people have demonstrated it as well, you know, so I think that anytime I've been around a person, a leader that holds a demonstration of presence, I was always curious, because I could see a part in that person that was also inside of me. And so, like I do with you, you know, like I said, when we first started, there's this beautiful presence in this third space that we're creating. So I just was cognizant that I want to be a part of that I want to be more involved in that. I'm very curious about, you know, what really has that presence becomes so palpable, because that's what it's like around Steve or others, that whole presence in that way. It's so palpable, it's like, it's a result in and of itself, right. It's not about a doing although Steve does a lot. But where he's coming from when he's doing is from presence and being, which is what I feel when he's doing something. So another person could be doing something from a place So frustration or being frenetic. And it might be the same physical action. But the result is very different because of who that person is being. So I just picked up on that, you know, and I wanted to I wanted to be around that.

Yeah, I want to I want to dive a little bit in break down. When you talk about presence, you know, because there's presence like, I'm here. And there's president's like, I want to be here. Right? But it's like, your spirit is in one space. I think that's what you were talking about. What were some one does something out of frustration, right? Your spirit is in one place, and your physical body is in another place. And then there's presence, like what we started this conversation talking about, there probably is another variation of presence. But let's just deal with those three.

Yeah, well, what a great question, what a great conversation to have, I think, the first thing and we can dive as deep into this as you'd like, I'm going to need some help from you. Okay. Because I think that the second I want to be somewhere that I'm not, I'm not present. So

there's, so I'm gonna just slow it down. For some people. There's someone that was just like, What did he just say? So what that means is like, there's already a separation by you not recognizing that you are present because you aspire for something that is, is that what you mean?

Okay. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that. And I just mean that, you know, this is the easiest thing in the world to be president. It's the easiest thing we can be as president, it's allowing something that's already there. So it's like the clouds part, and there's the sunshine. But I want to sit and allow the clouds depart, because sometimes my thoughts or whatever else is going on can get cloudy, and they can get in the way of the presence, like I should be somewhere different than where I am right now. My life should be something different than it is right? The second that thought occurs, there's an emotion that comes from the thought, and I no longer present, because I want to be somewhere other than where I am. You know, so that I think is tricky for some of us. And I know it has been in my life at times where I want to be somewhere different than where I am, or I want something to be different than it is. And then I'm trying to I'm trying to get somewhere I'm trying to get present, I can't really get something I already have. I'm already there, I just have to allow it to emerge. And that's, that's one of the things Steve Hardison is so great at is being present, with whatever it is, you know, whatever it is, wherever he is, that's what emerges from my experience is spending time with him. Yeah,

I would agree. Yeah. He's very impressive. And I love your analogy with someone seeking something that's already there. I mean, when it is cloudy, there are clouds. But there's also sun, the fact that we don't see the sun doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yeah. Yeah. So the deeper version of presence would be recognizing, while I only see clouds, I know that there's sun. And I'm grateful for the days that I've seen sun because of the clouds.

Yeah, and I also think, on the days where I may not be as present or feel, or I might be judging something about my not being present, or more present than I am. I can be present with not being present so that I can get out of it. Like, judging the clouds isn't gonna get me present. No, like I should be, I should be more evolved, I should be further along. I should be happier more often. Who sets like life is life and it's there all the time, and it has a natural organic tendency to it anyway. So I think I would say presence has something to do with not resisting what is going along with what is I mean, those wouldn't really be my words, per se, and maybe others like Byron, Katie have said it way better than I just did. But there's something very potent Write about the presence of what's what's really happening in the world. You know, we saw a lot of people, and this isn't a political statement at all. But in during 2020, we saw a lot of people unprecedent because of what was happening, because a lot of people wanted it to be different than it was. And I had my plenty of moments where I did. But the more I, as I shared with you earlier, I had this beautiful cottage in Montecito, California. And the more I sat with what was really going on, you know, on the planet at that time, the more present in the more present I got, the more I could serve myself and the people around me because I wasn't freaking out or judging as much as I was earlier about what was going on. I don't know if that makes any sense. Can you hear that?

Yeah. I hear that. You, you had your moments where you chose words that did not create the world that you would like to be present. And you existed in a way that that that provided you would much separation? And but it was also a deep healing for you. I'm hearing that somewhere in there. Because you gave yourself time and space with that. Is that accurate?

Oh, my God, that is so insightful in your part. That is, it was for me such a deep healing. Like, honestly, I'm not even sure I'm that clear yet what happened in the year and a half since March of 2020. For me, when I moved there, I think I'm still sorting some of it out. But having said that, I'm being patient, because when I just said trying to sort it out, it's like, not really, I'm just kind of allowing it to, to learn and change me. I think it changed a lot of us. And I think it's one of the reasons this movement that we're a part of, with the ultimate coach is so powerful for so many people, because so many of us realized more how important ways of being really are and how we show up in the world matters. And I think a lot a lot of people like it's like the collective consciousness went up a notch or 20,000 or something.

I don't know it's quantifiable. I don't know.

Here's the old banker in me trying to match. I

know. Look, I was a CFO, myself. I'm about the numbers, but let's just move away from that right now.

Yes, that's why you're so good at what you do. Thank you see, but but a movement like an expansion, you know, it's so it's there. It's just so much. There's so much happening in that way. It really is a movement.

It is and you know, as you're saying that I'm wondering, like, I don't know, if you were talking to Amy or Steve around the time, the end of 2020. But that is I think when Devin Benson was like, Oh, gee, you know that Steve's writing a book. I'm like, like, you know, Steve Hardison was like, there's never gonna write a book ever. And perhaps, with the things that happened in 2020, he thought, You know what, maybe I do need to put a book out there, that maybe that is his contribution to help us all. Be with our being what do you think? I didn't ask him?

I, here's what I think. And I think I think I think what I'm saying is accurate, although I'm happy to be wrong about it. But I based on some conversations with Steve. You know, Alan D. Thompson was really the function in the core behind let's write, I'm gonna write a book. Like Steven. I mean, Steve was years ago, like, I'm never gonna have a website. Yeah. Yeah, he's very clear on what he's not going to do. Until he's not like, Oh,

that's right. I was about to say until he's not because.

But that's pretty human. Right? And so on Thompson's like, I'm going to do it and kinda like, I'm going to do it regardless. And so if I'm not mistaken, the interview I had with Alan the Thompson was in probably early spring of 2021. And yeah, so he was, I don't know how many hundreds of hours he spent talking with people and doing the preliminary interviews for for the book and then like anything graceful and magical. You know, I think Steve then was really, I don't know if the right word is concede to the vision but maybe it is. Maybe it is that he decided to go along with the vision, and then it just kind of grew like any great leader. I I'm gonna pivot a little bit but like Dr. Martin Luther King, he did not want to lead the freedom marches. He did not. That is not he wasn't standing up going, I'm the guy to do this. He was sort of told, we think you're the one. And here's the reasons he was like, Nah, not gonna, not gonna, not gonna, until he was. And so isn't that an interesting part of this whole conversation? Like so many people from my experience are trying to generate something strategically. And I've been that person so many times in my life. And those are the times I've struggled the most, when I was trying to force something that didn't want to happen. And making people wrong along the way, they didn't want to cooperate with what my strategic vision was, and letting go of all that struggle in the in that trying to get somewhere. So I think this book to come back around full circle is a beautiful example of grace and presence and ease and flow. It has this organic, beautiful, natural result to it. And it's, and I think that's why it's moving out into the world the way that it is.

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. And the conversation I had with Steve was clearly way after the book was written. But he said that this book is not about me. It is. It is the Book about being. And, you know, I know there's a set of instructions on the back of the book. But if we just focus on seeing the mirror image of ourselves, right, I told you about this line in my poem, which I can't remember the name of the poem. But anyway, where I say, my infinity, mirrors, divinity, and each of us as that piece of divinity inside of us, right. And so as you read the book, about being the ultimate coach book, you each page is a reflection of your own life is a reflection of who you're being the way you perceive it each time you read a page, right? I found that I would read a page, and then I have to reread it. And to your point about judgment. Like, some of those times, it wasn't about me, it was about Steve, I was like, You know that guy and I'm like, Wait, who am I being in this moment? Why am I why am I in judgment? What's, what is it that I'm seeing that I don't like about myself? Or that I'm judging about myself? You know, so? Did you experience that too, when you were reading the book? Oh, my God, like once or twice.

You know, another Steve in our world is Steve Chandler and I mentioned this to him the other day on the phone. It's like this is the thing I love most about Steve Hardison is if this book what we're about Steve Hardison, I honestly could not stomach it. I mean that like it because Steve Hardison doesn't need to talk about Steve Hardison because Steve Hardison and Steve Hardison, so it's not about Steve Hardison and Steve Hardison is smart enough and being enough presence enough to see that and to give the gift of him being who he is. And when someone is being who they are. It's like that. Remember that old quote from Marianne Williamson, Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate our deepest fears that we're powerful beyond measure. These harnessing gives permission for that power. But he's not saying be me. He's saying, Be you, be you in the most unique way and in my work and conversations with Steve Hardison, that's one of the that that may be the biggest gem I took away was for me to be me, there's no competition for me to be me. It's only when I try to compare or contrast myself with other people that I get in trouble. So

I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt you but there's another opportunity in what you said to to get in trouble. You can compare you to a previous iteration of you. Yeah. Interesting. That's kind of dangerous.

Yeah, and thought of that in a while but that's a really good point. Like yeah, that that scary town. You know, a lot of ego it's a lot of for me While a lot of striving, what I was saying earlier about trying to get somewhere. So, good point.

Yeah. And we only have opportunities to thrive and to be. And so let's talk about the definition of what it is to be like my other podcast is called the free to be show, which came from a book that you may recall from the 70s. The purple book for you to be. Yeah, yeah. So I grew up with that. So, there may be some confusion, you know, for people when we talk about who you be. Right? And, and that's before we even get to the Beingness. So let's, what, what is your definition of like to be?

Well, it's funny, because what came in is, is, is it Shakespeare right? To be or not to be? Oh,

yeah. So

it's like, there's two sides to the cooling. So not to be oneself. We'll start with that. If I'm not being myself, Who am I being some other version of myself some familiar patterning of myself through my upbringing, somebody told me, I should play it small, to not be me. So to understand what it means to be, one really just has to allow the most authentic part of oneself to emerge. It's like a breath. It's like, how easy is it for us to breathe when we don't think about breathing? And how easy is it to be when we don't think about being? So? Like, I can feel the presence of beingness coming in even more powerfully now? Because it's such a good question. So the aspect of being isn't trying to do anything, it's that trying to get somewhere so to be or not to be? What's your choice? What's my choice? To be? It's a preference of, it's the most natural thing ever. Like reading?

Yeah, I think what Shakespeare said he says, To be or not to be whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings of air and arrows of outrageous Miss misfortune or to, I can't remember the rest, oh, my gosh, but it's just like, basically, right? We have a choice to judge ourselves and self abuse to like, for something that's outside of us, right, the outrageous misfortune is it outrageous? Is it a misfortune, like you're even judging the situation? Or we could just like what you just said, right? And in all of this, it really loops back to the beginning of our conversation and presence, isn't it?

I love the poet in you. I mean, I love that you can recall those words. I think that the trick then to be is to just allow it because it's there's so many roles in society. Like one thing about Steve Hardison is he's so generous, and so loving, that some people could confuse that could get confused by it, because of the rules are more like, I don't know if I would call it stoicism or just being stingy.

Like but the second one, the second one that we're not that we're judging, or judging.

But I do judge and that's my, that's part of what you know, is my state of being too is like, coming back to sell it, but that when I'm generous, and who I'm being a bit selfish in a way, because it's so fulfilling for me and it has a life of its own, which we kind of spoke about earlier it It's so fulfilling as a prophecy. And it just builds this velocity and it builds this momentum, whether it's an individual or a culture in an organization, or a movement like this one. You know, there's a way of being what I love about this one is Steve is saying that be you? He's not saying be me. So there we go. That's those are just thoughts. I don't know. How did you hear all that?

Yeah, it is. I hear it as fluid choice. Each moment that we breathed, we have a choice. And we sometimes we forget, we have the choice. And we we instead side with the rules, and then complain and judge them. Yeah. When the opportunity is always available to create the culture and the beingness that we desire, anywhere we are, no matter what it is we're doing or who we're with. And that's so cool. What I love most about that is that it's, it's, there's no effort in it. There's,

it's it's a non effort, it's like Teflon, it doesn't stick in. Not that I recommend using Teflon.

That's a whole different show, Steven, I know. It is free to be shown have that conversation. Okay,

good. With that, that is it's it's not an effort, and it's not generated? And yeah, it's free. Yeah. You know, it's, I mean, we hear these funny phrases, but they're often accurate, like you said, free to be me, you know, seems so accurate to me.

And we're always free to be, you know, yeah. Yeah. And so beingness is like, now that we've defined thoroughly, I feel like we've given a thorough definition of what it is to be. Would would you agree with that?

As much as there is a definition? Yeah.

As much as there can be yes, yeah. Yeah. I would say that beingness is similar, we have quite an opportunity with words. You know, Steve always talks about your words, create your world, and people don't really realize that it does. Our words are actual prayers, we see we pull behind from behind the veil, right, there's like a whole invisible world that we don't see that we're pulling from every time we speak. And when we really feel and believe something like that, and our spirit in the core of who we are. It brings it, you know, as a self fulfilling prophecy. And so when it comes to beingness, I think this is more of if I can say the action of what it is to be. Through the threat of our words, what would you agree? What did you hear me say? Well,

what I hear you saying is that one of the ways of being that we all have the opportunity for is to consciously choose our language and create through the language of prayer, who we be or what we want to create, because language is a way of being, you know, the power of language. Like, I feel like, you know, in a way this podcast in this conversation, it's almost like we're creating a whole new language. Because where we used to be two, three years ago is just different. I think we've been heading in this direction in a while. And so, boy, I'm no expert in it. You know, I'm just doing my best to put language on something that's new, and it's fresh. So it's like fertile ground, you know, and we're planting seeds. So what I heard you say is language, plants seeds that grow. And so I want to be mindful about what seeds I'm planning am I planning weed seeds?

What kind of weed are we talking about?

Colorado originally, although I know plenty of it, they're all say, but not that kind of weed or that kind of weed. It's up to you as an individual, but it's like this, the, the seeds that we plant in language will for sure grow. And when I look at my own life, when I've been most aware of that with myself, and others, is when my wife has been more presentist and it's been more wonderful. Little more full and when I get unconscious to that I'm gonna just say for me it's

heated again repeated again when I get what? They that yes, yeah

little conscious unaware. I, I get lazy with my language. And there's a result to that too. So all a part of the movement, the ultimate coach book, what Steve Hardison has put into the world you know, these a big part of the big part of the book, but one chapter in the book is about documents. And I did a document when I worked with Steve Hardison, and I was recently in touch with Steve Hardison for various reasons, but one of them was just like, you know, talking about a be with session, because I think I feel like it's time for me to create a new document because of the power of language in your earlier points.

Yeah. It's It's so true. And just to be clear, for listeners who may not have, you know, yet read the entire book, or worked with Steve Hardison, directly. The document is a process. It's not, it's not a couple of pages of declarations, it's a process. And as part of this movement, we actually are creating a course by someone who has been trained or coached directly with Steve Hardison for several years, and they will take you through the process of the documents. So did you know that Yeah,

yeah, that's great to know, I wasn't aware of that. But how cool, that's exciting.

And I love you know, that you feel the need to refresh your document and go through that process again. Because it's, we're not stagnant, right. Like we've been saying that the whole conversation were fluid. We are living in a progressive sequence of moments. And there gets to be a point when the declarations of how long ago was your document. I mean, we don't have to go there if you don't want to, but like,

I was, like, 2004 When I did my first document.

Okay, so you might have evolved a little bit. So, okay, so, yeah, I guess, yeah, that's accurate. It's time to refresh that Steven 18 years, we're going to talk about that when we're done.

See, that's helpful to being in a community that holds integrity and accountability to one's way of being. Yeah. You know, I really hate relationships relating and relating, in a way of being. Gosh, that, that is such a talk about a container, you know, yeah, where there's an opportunity to, like, you know, elevate your vibration exponentially. Yeah, that's what we're doing here.

We really are. It's funny, because when I met you, I when I was in CFJ, and you were one of the faculty members, my, my declaration, my only declaration at that time was to be part of elevating the collective consciousness. Yeah. And like, who knew what that meant? I didn't know what that meant. But now I know what that means. It's still evolving, you know? So

much to do it to like, it's not like we've been in daily or conversations often. But I can observe your way of being over the years from that CFJ School, which was probably 2018

No, it was, I know, how about that? No, it was 2021

Oh, my gosh. Ah, but the first time I met you was before that.

No. Okay, I met you I feel like it was February or for March of 21. Okay. But I'd say that striking to me your experience of me is that there's such profound distinction between who I was being when you met me to now that you thought that four years pass

I'm just having a moment here like space and time is left my brain. But I whatever the length of time is, it's a mark it's just that's what these things do these declarations, these ways of being In, like, catapult us into a whole stratosphere that otherwise I don't think it's possible. And you don't want to add to this conversation a little piece of what I would call like groundedness. Yes. Because it seems it could seem so woowoo or airy fairy to talk about, you know, with my clients, like leaders and organizations, you know, what do you mean by? That's a big question, What do you mean by ways of being? And but what I've seen over the years is, well, it's the sock part of change, meaning it's a little less tangible than other things that the, the linear mind likes to glom on to which which I do too. It is a result orientation. So in ways of being, for those of us listening, that are like, I don't know what they're talking about, or what's this woowoo stuff like, it is grounded in result. So if I'm not getting the results that I want, I want us first look at what Who am I be? That's as simple as I know how to put it, it's often there's often more to that conversation, but that's a simple way to say it. I mean, what do you what do you feel about that?

Yeah, I agree. And I was meaning to get back to the practical as we would say, you know, conversation of being that is more accessible to normal people, like, better not woowoo minded. And what comes to mind is, you know, the, the recent conversation that Meredith Bell had with Jonathan Kaiser, and what it boiled down to him as being that more powerful leader, was to be in integrity, with stuff even that was beyond his control. And I would say at the root of most weak leaders, is that they lack integrity, and they don't even know it, right. It's just like, Oh, I'll meet you at two o'clock. And the example that he gave in that interview was, he would intentionally schedule three appointments at two o'clock or at the same time, and then decide how he felt that day and pick one. Yeah, how many leaders do that on a regular? Yeah, yeah, that's not being an integrity. And if you think it's okay, it's not? Yeah, that's a crappy way of being. And I'm not judging, that's just an observation.

I love your straight talk, I think there needs to be more of that. Like, it's not okay. I think of again, similar example. But when I was doing culture change work in organizations, I was doing more of that many years ago. And everyone would be there on schedule and on time, except for the C level leader. And, you know, 15 minutes late, you know, like I am here, I got caught up, you know, all of that, oh, my goodness, like, talk about a conversation. On a practical level, we just added up the salaries in the room and multiplied it times a quarter of an hour. And you think about that projected out over a number of years, it's a lot of a lot of wasted resource. So there's that level of it. But then there's just the mistrust. Gotta bring

up the numbers. Yeah,

I know, the former financial services person here. But that Miss trust, what I've learned over the years is that is where the real harm is. Because now we're not there's no discretionary energy coming from our people, our team, our family, our church. The people we love the most, they're not, they're not sure whether we're going to be there or not be there. And that uncertainty is painful. And it's harmful to the people we love the most as leaders. So I love your straight talk. And it is a way of being being on time. So when we say Be on time, it's a way of being to be on time or not on time. Practical as we could get today, right?

There you go. And, you know, the other podcast that I do is called unlearning labels, which is about diversity, equity and inclusion. And so you made me think of another word with your example there is that creates a lack of psychological safety. Right, which is another it's a root of a cultural problem in many organizations and it trickles down, right? He thinks it's okay to be 15 minutes late. That's fine. The next level down, right, the VPS are like, Ah, well, you know, I guess we'll just let it slide that. Yeah, I know. You said you can have three weeks of PTO just have two weeks because I think that's okay. And then the next level down, the managers are like, Oh, because you're You're a woman and you've got kids, and you're taking, you know, extra time to be with your sick kid. We're gonna not promote you for the next three years. You know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, it seems like not a big deal to be 15 minutes late, but you don't know what's happening on the other end.

Yeah, and it's, you know, it comes, it can come from a place of self importance, or, you know, this is more important than that, which is what you described earlier with Jonathan Kaiser copping to what he used to do, which I've done to, you know, and, but the real person that suffers from that is me, because now my word to myself is questionable. And how do I create with my word, if my word is questionable? To myself? Here's the answer. I can't, not in a predictable way. Not in a way that has a certainty to it. So I'm always going to, I'm going to withhold part of my generosity, part of my creative force part of the cosmos in the universe, and God coming into my language, because it's questioning to it being whatever you want to call it, like the cosmos universe, God Spirit, whatever, but it questions to like, is he Is she serious about what he she says? Yeah. and think, Oh, my God, that that's like, there's an energy to that

too. And, and I'm gonna put that energy in this phrase. It's, it keeps you from loving. Wow. See more? Yeah. So if you can't keep your word to yourself, you can't love yourself. Yeah. Which it can't radiate anywhere. Your creation will be inconsistent. We talked about words earlier, right? At words, planting seeds, but you're, you're throwing seeds, or not. But if you were throwing seeds up throwing them in a desert, right, someplace where nothing will ever grow. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

I love that you brought it back to love. You know, back in 1998, I was working with a company called enlightened leadership. And that company doesn't exist any longer. But for a while, it was a really powerful force on the planet, give thanks to Ed Oakley and Doug crude for their work. Because we were walking into organizations at the time and we talked about love, we talked about love being the most powerful source of energy we have and to and to bridge the gap from love to a result is it takes a certain consciousness to do that. And so Meg Wheatley was one of the leadership in the new science, I think, was the book that she wrote many, many years ago, which brought that forward. So, yes, I love that you bring it back to that, because it's never been more important for us as leaders, to love ourselves and others than it is right now. And that can mean a lot of different things that also is not woowoo. To me, because to me, love is a behavior. You know, what, what this movement is, you know, based on the life of Steve Hardison in the book and other people he's impacted as what did they experience love. And, and the way Steve Hardison has loved me, has been in very different ways. You know, sometimes he's been very tender with me. Other times, he's not been so tender with me. He's been more clear. And those were

clear. When you say that, I'm sorry. I had to laugh because I'm thinking about when he was clear with me, it was really kind of, you know, it was,

it was a jolting. Yes, that's a great word. Yeah. What word would you put on that kind of snuck a word in there, but what would your word be?

I'll put it this way. We were walking down the street and these women pulled over and they were like, are you okay? Did you want to get in the car with me? Because they didn't want me to walk with him anymore. So it it Yeah, tilting is good. But it people's outward perception of you know, observing us looked like I was unsafe. Yeah. But at that moment, I actually felt quite loved. You know? Yeah, yeah, I

believe. And this is a tricky one. So I invite each of us to be careful where we try this. But I think we can say just about anything to anybody, if there's enough love in it. But that's the trick is Love is a way of being. And there's layers to it, I believe. And so your earlier point like to bring it full circle on that relationship with my word, your word to use yourself. Can't love yourself and the break your word to yourself. How do I love other people? How do I bring more love through my, my body? My eyes, my my heart and soul? How do I do that? Like, anyway, so love is potent. And I know that you felt loved in that moment. It sounds to me and from the outside looking in. These ladies are like, Hey, do you want to ride? Like you don't look happy right now, let's take you away from this. But it sounds to me like what you're saying is you didn't want to go anywhere.

Yeah, yeah, it's to really come full circle. And in I guess, close here, but I'm going to ask you one more question after I say this is that love is something that really vibrates from a different realm. And that's why your words our prayers, because that's you're pulling from a soul level, you're pulling from the creation level, the depths of like I say, our infinity so that we can connect hearts in the world and create cultures. Create connection, inspire, you know, relationships, and, and really be in integrity. With everything we do. With every choice we make. And every moment. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. So Stephen, what feels most appropriate to, to close this space today?

No, with with love, you know, just love your presence. I love your willingness to create, with people like myself, a movement through this podcast. I love the direction of the book, and how it's landing in people's lives. I love myself for being willing to be unapologetic in who I am, which is ultimately pardon the pun, is ultimately what Steve Hardison has shown me is he's unapologetic and being himself, and that is freaking badass. I don't know that many people that are unapologetic in being themselves and there's a power. So I would just land this plane by saying I'm grateful for the love. I'm grateful for the conversation. I'm grateful we went from high in the sky, with clouds and sun to on the ground with being on time. We covered a lot of ground. Then I said to you earlier, I think you're gifted at interviews. And I think you've heard that from a few other people. So I do I encourage you carrying on no you are. So thank you for your work and what you're doing.