Being the Coach to Rising Leaders - Mark J. Silverman

Welcome to The Ultimate Coach Podcast conversations from being inspired by the book, The Ultimate coach, written by Amy Hardison, and Alan Thompson. Join us each week with the intention of expanding your state of being, and your experience will be remarkable. Remember, this is a podcast about be, it is a podcast about you. To explore more deeply, visit the ultimate Coach book.com. Now, enjoy today's conversation from be

Welcome to another episode of The Ultimate coach Podcast. I'm Meredith Bell, one of your hosts for this show. And today, I am just so delighted to be able to have as my guest, Mark J. Silverman, Mark, welcome to this program,

Meredith, whether it's on a microphone on a podcast, or just you and I talking on the phone is one of the best parts of my day.

Well, thank you, Mark, you know, I was looking back that you and I think first started corresponding and 2021, I feel like we've been friends for life 2021 Really instant connections. And I just think you're such a remarkable human being. And I'm so excited to bring you to the listeners of the ultimate coach podcast, you have so much to share, that's a value, I'll just tell the audience real quickly. Mark has many talents. He is currently focused on being an executive coach and author, a speaker and a podcast host. And he's one of those coaches who works in the corporate world. Specifically, he works with CEOs around the world. And his goal is helping them to turn their fast rising high achievers into effective leaders. And so we'll get into that, as an overall part of who mark is being in the world today. Mark, let's start with your journey. It's such a fascinating one. When I think of your evolution, and you can start at whatever point you think makes sense, and take us up to the work you're doing today.

You know, it's so hard not to make it stick and you know, just kind of off head toss off, you know, how I started on this journey, being homeless and living in my truck and being 135 pounds. That, you know, that's such a part of who I am, who I am today, you know, we've, I've changed the story around that. And I've changed how I feel about it. But that part of my story is is is as impactful now as it was back then. So you know, back in 1989, I was not a going human concerned I was I was an alcoholic and a drug addict and a sex addict. And I really didn't have any life skills. And when I rolled into town, and my brother got me sober, he told me I was gonna go to AAA meetings and NA meetings and go to college and go to the gym with him. And you know, that was that was a a shift in my world, and in my worldview, so I got sober and went to college. And you know, several years later, I was in the tech industry. I got married, I had two kids, I was a millionaire. And I joke all the time that I was a short Jewish Tony Robbins. But the the whiplash and the and the shift in my world was was was quick it was it was from going to be someone I was ashamed of. To being someone who drove a sports car had a million dollar house was a pillar of the community. And but still feeling like that homeless guy feel still feeling on the inside like I'm a fraud is how I went through my career. So how I am as a coach today is all about how those insides played while I worked through the lawsuits in a gold watch and walked around the world. So that's kind of my story.

And somewhere along the way, you learned about Steve Hardison and you decided to have a be with session with him. And that had quite an impact on you. I would love for you to share that.

So I found out about Steve Hardison, eight over eight years before I had my be with session. So so when I when I was in looking at changing careers when I was looking at becoming a coach and I finally fit in, you know, figured out that that was what was my next move, leaving the tech industry and doing coaching I was reading some Steve Chandler books and he kept talking about this ultimate coach. He kept talking about his coach, and how amazing his coach was. And I'd read like four Steve Chandler books at that point. Probably some gravity only had like four by then. And I said, okay, if I'm going to be a coach, I want to be coached by the best in the world. So I called Steve Hardison, I found him I called him and said, I'd like you to be my coach, if I'm going to be a coach, I need to be coached by you. And he said, Yes, and send me send me the big cheque. And I was like, I'm all in, I had the money. I'm all in. He says, and you're going to be flying to Phoenix every other week, to meet with me in person. And that's when I said, Hold up. Not sure I can do that. And again, now, in hindsight, I now understand the commitment behind coaching and what that does for you. Then I was still in transition, I still had like a full time sales job. I still have little kids at home. And I didn't quite wasn't able to put that together. So I told Steve, I can't do that. So he suggested, you know, a couple of other coaches from me, one, Steve Chandler, one rich lead Finn. And wound I wound up working with rich for four years. But Stephen, I stayed friendly Stephen, I know we would exchange texts or emails, or we talked every once in a while. So Steve, always lean loomed large in my world. And I decided, you know, I knew about the B with sessions, and I never had the calling to go work with him because I loved who I was working with and what I was doing. And then I was sitting on my meditation cushion one day, and I got the green light said that said, Go do your be with session with Steve. Now it's time to it's time to go see him. And what was happening up until then. But before then, is, I know, I'm sure that you've read the way of mastery. That's one of the one of the books Steve suggests, I had gotten into the non duality world. And what I what I what I got, from, from really diving into that world was a freedom, a freedom from Mark that I never had before. So I had grown I had changed, I had become successful, I even changed careers, still being mark, with all his issues with all his challenges, and with all the pain that he carried around and all the trauma that I carried around in my body. And when I when I finally had the experience, I was reading Jed McKenna's spirituality as the darkness thing. And in the middle of reading that book, I was sitting on my meditation cushion, and it all fell away. Like Mark fell away, my stories fell away. And I was free. For the first time in my life. I walked around just kind of in a blissful days, for days, just finally realizing that I'm not mark Marcus's character, I finally, finally was just joyful and free and open and light. And I spent several years that way. So I had spent years just in this joyful, happy place, unfortunately, by the end, and I now know that that's kind of an immature spirituality is leaving, leaving this world behind for that for that world. But it was, again, the first time I've ever been without the pain of being marked. But I wasn't making enough money to support myself and my family and to take care of all my responsibilities. I wasn't being consequential in the world, the way I wanted the way, the way I needed to be in order to take care of myself, I was still a great dad, I was great ex husband, I had a wonderful relationship. But it wasn't wasn't quite working. And that's when the Beavis session was Steve happened. So I go to Phoenix. And I go to his house, and we have a fiery conversation about coach coaching and what it's like, you know, how do you be a coach rather than rather than do coaching? And it was a really great conversation. And then Steve said something to me, that was just that it. It just stopped me in my tracks, pissed me off. But it stopped me in my tracks. And he said, you know, Mark, you know what your problem is? Like, dude, I got no problems. Honest to God, I don't even know why I came here. I came here just to be with you. I don't I don't have any problems. And he says, Your problem is you haven't built a life worth living. And I was like, What? What? What what do you even I was so insulted. Because I was free. I was one with the universe. I was, you know, like, none of this matters. And I realized, like, What are you talking about? I haven't built a life worth living. This life isn't worth living, because it's not real. So I left there with you know, a few nuggets, but that thing just kept staying in the back of my head. So I came home, and I kept going over the session and all the things that I got out of the session, but that one thing kept I'm gnawing at me is having built a life worth living? Then I had a conversation with one of the non dual teachers. And he said, you know, Mark, does awareness need to pay the rent? Like no. Does awareness need to pay the bills? Or does the wareness need to have a career? No. And he says, who does? And I said, Oh, Mark still needs to make a living Mark still needs to have a career. And the thing with Steve Hardison, all of a sudden, it made perfect sense. It was like, Oh, I can be awareness, awareness needs none of these things. But I'm actually mark Silverman on this earth, and Mark needs to get some shit done. And that was the first time like the two worlds now it's like, okay, both. And now, what do I do with that? When that happened, the trauma came back, all the pain came back, if I'm going to be Mark, Mark comes with all this baggage. And that, that took about two years of doing some trauma work, and really digging into all of that. So that today, I can honestly say, and I was having this conversation with my son who's studying to be a rabbi, I can honestly say now that I am awareness that I am that intangible thing. And I'm also mark, whoever it is, I create mark to be this day. And I that integrated? It's all one. And I wouldn't have known that that existed. Had I not had that conversation with Steve. I hope that made some semblance of a sense.

Absolutely. That was fascinating to hear. And I could, I must feel that the kind of shock you felt when that was said to you, after working so hard to separate out all the stuff from your history that was haunting you or tormenting you to reach that point of, I won't say bliss, but it sounded like you had reached a point of peace.

It was I would say it was it was a piece I never had. Mm hmm. Right. And, and now, I am still can be mark with, with all the challenges of being a human being, and still have that peace. And again, like I wouldn't have known that existed.

Mm hmm. What's some of the work you had to do to reconcile that, you know, to go from, you know, I'm a spiritual being to Oh, yeah, I am still a human being and integrate those so that you are able to work through those traumas that came back initially.

So I had, I actually had to go to workshops, and experiential things, where I went into my past where I went into my childhood, and experienced those specific hurts those specific things, and again, knowing that I remembered certain situations a certain way, and then interpret them for my adult life. Right. So the trauma isn't the thing that happened. The trauma is the what I made of what happened. So I made I made decisions about Mark, I built mark a certain way out of being molested as a kid, out of having a mother who had narcissistic disorder right out of out of all those things that happened to me, or the way I see them had happened to me, I made these decisions, and going back in and actually going to that five year old who was terrorized by a certain event, and seeing what was happening in the decisions I made, feeling that pain freed me. So doing that trauma work, and that belief work and understanding how I built this guy called Mark, and how all that stuff was still running me, again, was really painful, really unpleasant. And so worth, like, I can't believe how worth it it is. Because, again, I didn't know this kind of life existed.

So how would you describe Mark today? Who is Mark?

Mark is mark as man grounded in God with the heart of a lion. That's who mark is. I turned 60. And again, now what I know is Mark is fungible. Right, I've read Steve Chandler's book, I know I can reinvent myself every day. Mark is Mark is what I create him to be each day. And you know what I realized in some of that trauma work was that who I am has to be grounded in what I'll call God, that that spirit life that I found, the my practices and my connection there it has to be. And the other is that the guy who lived the life If that I lived and came out the other side has the heart of a lion like I thought I was weak, because all the all these things happen I thought I was weak. Because I I dealt, it was so painful to be a sales guy was so painful to be married, it was so painful, to be a dad to be successful to do all these things. I thought I was weak. And now I see that what a powerful, powerful man I am, to have had those demons and succeeded anyway, had those demons and opened my heart anyway, had those demons in raised wonderful children. You know, we postpone this because my brother died a few weeks ago. And my brother is the one who got me sober when we talked about that earlier. And so my brother saved my life without without Barry Silverman, there is no mark Silverman the husband, the father, there is no marks home in the sales guy, the coach, none of this happens without that. And when my brother died, I had to really do some soul searching. And what I realized was, what a what an impossible what, uh, what's what, what's the word I'm looking for improbable? What an improbable life I had, and have had and have now it just shouldn't have been this way, only 10% of drug addicts and alcoholics get sober. So don't just that piece, only a few people actually cannot live the traumas that I had as a child. The choices, the decisions I've made, the decades of work that I do have done, I can now own used to say, Oh, it's just grace that I'm alive. Like, it's just chance. And it's just grace, I fought every step of the way I did, I have done decades of work to become this guy. So yeah, I'm a man grounded in God with the heart of a lion. And that's how I'm going in my 60s.

I love that. So I love the Own Your Power, you know, there, because I think sometimes people have this false humility or they're too quick to dismiss, compliment, not even compliments acknowledgments of who they are. And I love that you have stepped into that you own it. And now you are really having an impact. I want to talk some with you about how you have really evolved into this person committed to have a major impact, and talk about where you've chosen to focus, your strengths, your energy, and what kind of impact that can have.

So I'm one of those. I'm one of those rare coaches who have that deep spiritual bent and really want to do the holistic coaching. Who I thrive in glass buildings. My friend, Helen Appleby is the one who actually said that years ago that changed my career, says, Mark, you just you belong in glass buildings. I love being in a suit. I love dressing up, I love dealing with people who are building businesses, I love people who are who are trying to figure out how to be leaders on a leadership team. I love people who are flawed, and still creating amazing things. Anyway, my my zone of genius is how to navigate human relationships. Being able to teach that to people, no matter what personality type they are, no matter what their responsibilities are, and have them have a more peaceful and, and impactful life just wakes me up every day and makes me thrive. You know, the side product is, you know, again, richly for us to say, sell people what they say they want, give them what they really need. So I sell promotions, I sell more money I sell, you know, leadership skills, and all that stuff. And what I give people is a sense of self, I give them a give them a sense of who they are being in those places. And I have a conversation with almost everybody that I coach, mostly men, I have a conversation with him before I sign up. Anybody up? And I say do you want to be the kind of man your wife needs you to be? Do you want to be the kind of father your children need you to be in a you're going to be the kind of man who can handle this kind of success and well. And when I first said that the first time I said that I was just freaking out that I was talking myself out of a sale. But I realized it's what I care about. So when I went out to dinner with I went out to dinner with a couple of my clients who I've been coaching for about four years now. They're they're wildly successful, like, like, like crazy money successful. And they I never met their wives in person. And we went to dinner and the wives said, looked at me and both of them together. They said you have no idea what you've done. And for our families and what for our marriages, we know you've done for the company and what you've done for them as leaders and all that stuff. But what you've done for us, as you know, as a family, and both of them said, this, you know, is intangible. And I'm in this fancy restaurant, I just burst into tears, because that's what I care about, right? Like, who cares if you're a multi multimillionaire, if you have an unhappy home life, who cares if you're like, we're watching a couple of a few billionaires, wreak havoc on our, on our on our world right now. What What good is being a billionaire, if the inner landscape is hell. So for me, I'll sell them, I'll sell them promotions, I'll sell them leadership skills, but I want them to have that piece that I have.

I love that mark. Because when you think about it, at the end of the day, at the end of our lives, what is it that matters, it's the relationships we create. And so for you to be able to have that kind of impact. I just love that you've, you've chosen to put your energies in your your skills, your strengths, your lion heart, into working with those folks, because one of the things that I'm sitting here thinking about is, you know, some of these strong business leaders, you know, they don't want any fluff, they they need to be talked to directly about their stuff. And because of, you know, all the things you've walked through in your own life, I'm guessing there's not much anybody can say to you, that that intimidates or puts you off, or, you know, causes you to pull back in any way, am I right? None of

my coaching and you know, in the real world, there, you know, there are people who intimidate me that you know, I'm not with your car. But with my clients. You know, it's funny, because I a niche has has shown up for me that I did not expect. And that is I get calls from CEOs who have someone on their C suite on their leadership team, a VP or sports chief, something Officer of something, Mark, they're amazingly talented. They're all Oh, my God, they're great. But they're a bull in the china closet, come fix them. Right. So I have become the the troublemaker whisperer, somehow I'm able to take these people who are just so full of themselves, and are young, they've just been so talented, and rose through the ranks so quickly, that they're missing those some of those key leadership skills or the key co leadership skills that they need. And I'm able to talk truth to them, and set them straight, and then have them have them really have a more integrated leadership style on the leadership team.

But how about give me a couple of examples. You know, when you think about how you were before and how you are now and how you are being in the world, some of these folks go through this transition as a result of their work with you from being one way to actually realizing it's more effective to be a different way.

But usually, usually, again, we do what's called as a 360 interview process, then, you know, you know what that is because you work in the same arena that I do. So 360 is where you go into any and you speak to some of their peers in the organization, you speak to their superiors in the organization, and then a few people who work for them. And every once in a while I bring in the wives, if my if my gut says to bring in the wives, I usually get some really good information there. But you're when you have when you get that 360 view of what their leadership style is. It's really it's hard to argue with what's on the paper there. Right? So the CEO brought me in to do this. The paper says that people kind of feel the same way as the CEO does. What are we going to do about that? But also, most people don't like not having good relationships. As I say, as you as you move up, if you if you have the wreckage of these relationships, as in my rising leader workshop, we have an exercise in there, where we go through your ambition, and we say Where has your ambition wrecked relationships on your way up the ladder? And when you go in, when they go through that and they look where they were they've actually destroyed some relationships, or just left a little dirt on their relationships. Now they're in a senior leadership position. Where's your support coming from? Have you built a support team by rising up the ladder or are you a lone wolf that people are gunning for them. Which would you rather be? Would you rather have everybody going? Yes. That is the person who should be the new CIO? That is the person who should be the new chief financial officer? Or do you want people to say, yeah, he's not going to last, and we're not going to help them last. So that kind of thing is real is usually pretty helpful.

I'd love for you to share an example of one of these folks, what did they realize about themselves that they didn't, not just the information that came in from, say, the CEO or the people, but when they looked inside, at who they were being, what was said about themselves, is there a common thread that they are always a killer way, and they decide, that's not working, I want to be more of this or less of that?

Well, one is that that yo, again, I use the Enneagram. So that personality type like so our conditioning, has us beat succeed in a certain way, our conditioning has us succeed in a certain way to keep us safe. So if you're, for me, you know, as an Enneagram, two, you and I are both Enneagram twos were the happy helper, I keep myself safe by being useful to people. And Enneagram, eight will be more in you know, like in control. So they need, if they're not in control, they're vulnerable. So they're gonna, they're gonna be the micromanagers, they're gonna hold on to things. So when we get when you look at a person's personality type, you look at their the fears underneath why they are the way they are, then you can see, you can see kind of the ducks feet running underneath, right, so you can see those, you can see those vulnerabilities. I'll give you an example of one guy who is an Enneagram, eight, he's a bull in a china closet. He's brilliant. Absolutely. Your runs his organization. And his work product is excellent. But everybody's afraid of them, including the CEO. Because whenever he gets upset, he just smashes everybody in the home, the whole meeting goes to shed, and they have to regroup and all that stuff. And he's like, we can't go on with this. I don't want to lose it. But we can't go on with this. So we do the 362. You know, conversation, we talk about how does this affect your life I actually had him do for a week, I said, I just want you to walk into a room. And I want you to notice people's energy when you walk into a room. Just spend the week noticing their energy. That's your only homework, walk into a room, quiet down. How are people with you? And he came back and he said, wow, people tighten up. I never noticed that before people, people stiffen up around me. So is that the world that you want to live in? Do you want to world live in a world with people who's different up and around you? Or do you want to live in a world where people actually are happy to see you walk into a room. So we started working on some of these skills, and a lot of it was just skills, right? A lot of it was expanding the range. So in Enneagram, eight really doesn't feel like the soft people skills. Those niceties are necessary. Let's just get to the thing. Let's get it done. Let's move on. Right but and you want those people on your team because they get shit done. But at the expense of leaving people in your awake. So we started working on some of this stuff. And he started using the skills he started using the people skills that he didn't know, again, didn't think were so important. But he started to see the results. He started to see people grow around him, they started, he started to get feedback from other people that he was better. And then so we've been working together for about nine months now about that. So I do six month contracts. So about a month five, he comes back to me and he says, I just went to the doctor and said really? What happened. He says, You know, I've had high blood pressure all my life. Really, he says my doctor wants to know what the hell happened to me. I no longer have high blood pressure. And I said, Oh, what would you tell him what happened? He says, I got coaching. From mark on Wow, he goes you know what else Mark? He said be lactose intolerant my home the whole entire life. I am no longer lactose intolerant. He says I can't figure out what it is. I know what it is. Right. He's his his. His body. He'll he's not in that fight or flight all the time. Is and by the way, my relationship with my wife is so much better. My wife noticed. Um, she says I come home. I'm not so tense. I'm nice. You know, we have talks, we go on walks together. This was after five months working together. So yes, his organization works better. The CEO is much happier. He's better on the team and all that stuff. But look at the other things that happen from him. Learning how to not and one of the things I tell most of my clients cuz most of my clients are hyper, hyper responsible, over responsible, you know, those types of people, like everything is important, they're gonna take ever, they're the ones who are gonna stay up until three o'clock in the morning to make sure that everything's the way it supposed to be. And I try and try and get them all to see, you don't just care less like your problem is you care too much. Like, what do you mean, I care too much. Like you just care too much like, everything is so important, you're wound up like a tarp. And I try and get them to kind of let go that way. And that seems that seems to do the trick.

That's such a powerful story. And it goes back to this whole idea of, you know, where you're these whole beings, and how we are being in a given moment, and over a period of time, impacts our health. And the the energy we put out, and because what he was noticing going into the rooms, was really people responding to the energy he had been consistently bringing himself. It's amazing. Thank you, I want to acknowledge you for the wonderful work you are doing now the impact you are having this ripple effect that you're having on others. And I want to come back to something you said earlier, which was about how you're creating yourself. So I would love for you to talk about do you have a process, say in the morning that you go through to get yourself ready to think about who do I want to be today? For example,

I joke about that all the time on my own podcast. I'm kind of naturally er, even even with all that all the spiritual work I've done and the oneness with the universe, they still wake up pretty freakin grumpy every day and it's just always been that way. So you know, and people say Mark, how do I be like you your your equanimity is like and then your your open heartedness and your vulnerability and all this stuff. Like, well, you want to be like me do what I do. And this, this was something that happened with Steve, Steve Hardison. In that viewer session, I asked him something about himself, and he starts throwing his, his journals at me. And he starts, he starts showing me his books and starts throwing physically throwing his journals at me about with all the work that he does, and his walking meditations and all the stuff that he does to create himself. And John Morgan talks about that in one of the beautiful videos that he did about working with Steve. And I realized I do the same thing. And I doubled down after that time with Steve, where you know, where I used to call it just prayer, meditation, journaling, whatever. Now, I call it creating myself every day. So I'll wake up, er, I don't really care what this character mark does. But I know what I want him to do when you know, it's time to be in the world. So I get up early, early, early in the morning, get on my meditation cushion, I do my journaling, I do I read something. Usually, like a book, like the ultimate coach book, or the way of mastery, I'll read like, one two or three pages a morning. That's how I slowly get through books. And somehow I've written read tons of books, you know, one two or three pages at a time, then I'll meditate journal, and you know, kind of create who it is I want to be I have my manifesto of who I want it, you know, that document that statement of who I am in the world, I am a man grounded in God with the heart of a lion, right? If I'm if I'm that, and I have that tattooed on my arm now, if I'm that, that's how I'm going to show up every single day. Right? If I put that on paper, if I put that in my heart and in my mind, that's how I'm going to show up every day. So I get myself right. I create myself in the morning, every single day, and then recreate myself all day long.

I was just going to ask you about what how do you respond when something happens during the day? That's unexpected. Especially if it's something that is not welcome. That kind of unexpected? Not a nice surprise. But uh oh,

I don't hesitate to phone a friend. Like I have some close close friends that I have. And you know, you're one of them people that if I needed to, you know, just kind of talk myself off the ledge, I'll make a phone call. I don't have any probably like my mind is gone. My mind is making something up. For me right now. This rising Leader Program and putting myself in the world in the way that I am over this next year is scary to me. It really it really pushes some of those trauma buttons of being visible of putting my stake in the ground of who I am in the world and what I'm bringing to the world and calling myself a leadership coach. That was hard for me all these years I'd rather be talking about mastering midlife I'd rather do all this stuff, you know, call it you know, talk around it. And when people say you know Mark, your leadership coach Like, yeah, I'll leave that to you know, the Warner Earhart, disciples and all those people. And what I realized is I'm a leadership coach, I've been leading men, I've been leading powerful men for years, right? So I'm putting myself out in the world. And it scares me. It presses my buttons to put certain videos on to make statements that come from the work that I've created and put that up, up against next to all these luminaries that we both know. You know, for me, that's hard, so it presses my buttons. So I don't do it alone, I have a posse of people who I know like, this video, this video sucks, I can't put it out. I can't, I can't say this out on LinkedIn. You know, people who I used to work with will see this. And they'll like, they'll look at it. And they'll say, you know, Mark, you're right, that one sucks, or Mark, you're wrong, you can put this out. And that way, I don't have to do any of this alone. Just because I'm a coach, just because I charge a certain amount just because I have a certain you know, people see me a certain way in the world. I'm not gonna buy into that I am not doing anything alone, ever.

I think that's such an important point for people to hear. Because we all need a support system, we all need at least one other person that believes in us so that when we have those inevitable doubts, that we've got that person saying, yes, you can do it. And I'm curious, besides those people that you can call, when you feel that fear about putting yourself out there is there any inner work you're doing to, you know, process, this story you're telling yourself are these thoughts that you're having that help you work through it,

I have several, several, several versions of self inquiry that I that I do and that that are second nature now. So most people who are listening are very familiar with Byron, Katie's the work. And after you do after you do the work over and over and over again, for a while, it starts to happen really quickly, right? You no longer have to take out the sheet of paper, you can be standing in line and work your way through it. I have this thing, the six questions to ask yourself to talk yourself off the ledge. And the six questions start with is what I'm thinking. True. Right is what is what I'm thinking about the situation true? How am I scaring myself? Right? And I work? And I you know that question, How am I scaring myself is a really good one, that the this new, this new self inquiry that I've that I've started to learn is more somatic and more trauma. It's it's comes from some trauma work that I did. So there's a very specific leadership coach who has a leadership program like the one I'm creating. And he's 20 years younger than me, he's six foot two looks good in a suit. He is out of central casting of who I think I should be, when I put myself out there as a leadership coach. So I started to see him and united become friends. He doesn't has no idea that I have this thought about him. But I shrink. When I see him out there doing that I have the self talk, I shouldn't do my program, because he's doing my program better than I could do my program. And I was, you know, getting triggered by him. And then I realized, this is beautiful boomerang for me. When I see so and so out on LinkedIn, and I see how well he puts out his program and how well he puts himself out. What am I saying about me? What is my reaction to him saying about me? And how can I heal that in myself, and I now welcome I welcome these things. I have an old I have an ex an ex coworker who when I was suicidal, and when I wanted I was I was at my worst we work together. And he saw me at my worst, but I love this guy. He's such a good guy. And we were kind of friends. He's now a VP of sales at one of these big companies, you know, his career has has gone in a really cold trajectory. And I tried to contact him a couple of times, and he will not respond to me. He just won't respond to me and I don't understand why he will respond to me. And I even sent a note I said look, you know, I really thought very highly of you back when we work together. It was the one of the worst times of my entire life. And I just kind of wanted to connect and you know that kind of nothing. So when I see him on LinkedIn again, I get that sinking feeling right people you know I'm putting myself out as this executive coach, this leadership coach, I charge all this money and all this stuff, but these people know who I really am. Right? You're back at my worst. Now I realized that self inquiry is okay. When I see this person, what how what am I making that mean about myself? And then I sit with it. Can I sit with that in my body that I'm inadequate that I'm too short? That I'm too you know that I'm too Jewish too goofy, to whatever the self talk is? And can I allow that, that that is what's there. And what I've noticed is, if I use affirmations, if I try to bat it away, if I tried to get from, you know, if I tried to use my document, to say, No, I'm a man grounded in God with the heart of a lion, I'm not that it persists. But if I can sit and breathe into your inadequate, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, you have no business, being a coach, all this stuff that can sit with that, it crescendos and dissipates. And then I can go into where did this come from? And now I can start rooting this stuff out at the roots. And that's where that trauma work. For me, I guess me a couple of years ago, I would have said, what a waste of time. Now I realize the trauma work is such a deeply spiritual work.

That's great mark. And it points to the fact that, you know, these thoughts, we have these visceral reactions we have to things that we see people we see, you know, events that we might witness can trigger these things in us. And I think we stay stuck, when we don't allow ourselves to feel them, like you just talked about. Sometimes we put these shoulds on ourselves, I shouldn't feel this way, now that I've progressed this far in my personal development. And yet, then we're denying something that's a part of us that's calling for our attention. And I just love the way you give yourself space, through your awareness of of those feelings, first of all, recognizing the feelings, and acknowledging them, and then allowing yourself to feel them so that like you said, a crescendo. And then give space for you to ask those other questions that really get to the deeper answers. That's so powerful. The Fabulous conversation, I've just so enjoyed talking with you the things you've shared about your own journey, about your work with clients, and now about your own continuous evolution. And the fact I think one of the big takeaways is that we can feel comforted in the fact that we're going to continue to feel these things, and experience these things. And it's just part of the human experience. And we don't need to deny them. We don't need to judge ourselves as less than because we have these emotions. And I think there are times we all maybe hold ourselves to a high standard, that we don't think we can give ourselves permission to feel certain things. You know, you think well, I've moved up to this level, I've moved up to that level. And so that's supposed to be history. Does that make sense?

I know, I know, my friend of mine, Aaron file, who has mind fix. A she's one of the people who really talked me into doing some of this belief trauma work. And I said, I'm fine. I don't need this. I don't believe my thoughts. And I fought it. Because again, I didn't want to feel these things. I didn't want to go back in this. But if I'm going to be on Earth, and I'm going to play this character, Mark, and I'm actually going to do this thing. Right? It comes with all that bag comes with all that stuff. I can spiritually bypass, but I can't integrate unless I allow that stuff. And that's, that's, that's, you know, new in the last couple of years for me to be able to actually not be afraid of my humanity, to embrace it. And to and to use it as part of the whole never, never would have thought that that was a thing.

Thank you. I just want you to know how much I admire and love who you are.

This is this is this is mutual is the 100% Mutual, you know that.

It's just been such a beautiful conversation. And I want to thank you for bringing your whole self here being willing to be vulnerable open, because I think it's just been a real gift to our listeners. So thank you for today.