Navigating Betrayal: A Relaunch Journey of Healing and Growth

Welcome to another incredible show of the relaunch podcast. And you may be in a position right now where you are feeling like, what is it? That is deep within me that I just there's that, as my grandma said divine discontent, what is happening? Well, I have somebody today that's going to be able to open up a little bit of the Pandora's box and share with you stories about what might actually be happening to you and ways to get out of your own way. And what I'm talking about is, there is a fantastic person that I have recently had an opportunity to meet her name is Dr. Debi Silber. She is an award winning and two time TEDx speaker. She's the founder of PBT, that is post betrayal transformation Institute. She is the host of the podcast from betrayal to break through which is globally ranked within the top 1.5% of podcasts. She is a holistic psychologist, and a health and mindset and personal development expert. She is a two time international best selling author. And today, she is literally going to be your guide to helping you break through some of these barriers that are invisible and allow them to actually become visible.

You're listening to the ReLaunch podcast and I'm your host, Hilary DeCesare, best selling author, speaker and transformational coach widely recognized in the worlds of neuro psychology and business launches, which cultivated the one and only three HQ method helping midlife women. Yep, that's me to rebuild a life of purpose, possibility and inspiring business ventures. Each week, we'll be diving into the stories that brought upon the most inspirational relaunches while sharing the methods and the secrets that they learned along the way, so that you too, can have not just an ordinary relaunch, but an extraordinary relaunch.

So I've got to say, I have been so excited Dr. Debi, to have you on the show to be able to talk about these types of things, because especially right now, when people are being so triggered, you know, by by even the smallest thing, there could actually be a much bigger issue. But before we dive into all of that, I would love to have you share with us. Really the biggest relaunch challenge that you have had that has really impacted where you are and who you are today.

Well, first of all, thanks for having me on looking forward to this conversation. The absolute biggest relaunch for me was it really wasn't a lot of years ago, my entire life, business health family came to an absolute crash and burn. And this was I had a I had been in business over 30 years, I had a really painful betrayal from my family. And then I thought I did the work I needed to do to heal from that it happened a few years later. This time it was my husband, anybody who's been through it. It's devastating. It's traumatizing. That was the deal breaker. So I got him out of the house

before Dr. Debi before we go on. Share with us what actually happened in that first one where you said your family the betrayal there

you know it Yeah, it was it was actually it's like a lifetime of it and anybody who's grown up with verbal mental emotional abuse, you're You're conditioned to believe that things are your fault if they're not that you're wrong, that you're bad that you're less than and it was so many of those things and then just some just such craziness that I know anybody who has been through family betrayals like that, you you you can't make sense of it especially when these are the people that you trust that you're like okay if the world is going crazy you have my back. If other people are causing harm, you got me covered, you know, so it's it's it's when these the people closest to you prove and trust and trust For the, you know, and and do things that are just so wrong. And I, you know, and I'm not being that specific because there's some legal issues, I just don't want to, you know, I can't cross those boundaries right there. But it's just an accumulation of things that should never happen within a family within a normal family anyway.

Well, and I think what a lot of people that are listening right now can probably relate to, I call them the relaunches these transitions, these things you just keep happening, and they keep kind of knocking you down at the knees. And eventually, as you know, you were talking about the, your husband and what happened there. It's kind of like the straw that breaks the camel's back. Right. So you had a betrayal happen with your husband? Can you can you tell us like what what finally did happen with you at that point after? After he did that?

Yeah, I was, you know, I don't want to say we're ever broken bent for sure. You guys die like that? Yeah. Absolutely. A mind blowingly traumatizing. I had never experienced, I mean, I had been through death of a loved one, I'd been through disease, I had never been through anything. As painful as that. And I, my only intention was first to survive the experience. But I had four kids, six dogs and business, I couldn't afford just to crawl up in bed, and I just couldn't. So the way I usually do things is sort of learned my way through them. And I couldn't find a book on this that was going to do the job. So I enrolled in a whole Ph. D. program. I mean, not what most people would do, maybe after a betrayal, but I dove in. And you can only imagine the people who said, Are you absolutely crazy? I mean, I didn't know how I was going to pay for it. Manage the time? How old

were you? When this was like you were deciding to go back and get your PhD?

I was 50 Ah, God, I

love right there. Well, yeah. Wow. That is, you know what, right there talks a lot about who you are. And you really wanted to understand this, you know, half of I like to say, the mid zone, when you're in the mid zone, and you've had all these things, you really wanted to get to the root of what happened and why it happened. What

it was in transpersonal, psychology, you know that the psychology of human potential and transformation, I was obsessed with it because I was changing so quickly. I didn't quite understand what was happening. He was too. But I wanted to understand how the mind works and why we do what we do. Because for me, it's so simple. It's like, oh, this is going to hurt someone don't do it. And I think that this is how other people live. And to learn, oh, wait, that's not what goes on. So it was a re education. And it was time to do a study. So naturally, I study betrayal. And honestly, I studied it, just to help me heal. That was my intention. And to be the best mom, I could for my kids, you know, but I remember going through the study saying I have no idea how I'm going to heal from this. But if I do, I'm taking everybody with me. Like it was just this weird knowing. And the study, which I hadn't, I mean, I was just going through it doing what I was supposed to do. And it made three groundbreaking discoveries, which changes everything we know about betrayal. And it changed my health in my family, my work my life. And it was really those discoveries and put it in, I'm happy to share them.

Oh, I want to hear what were those discoveries that yeah, you're stuck. It

changed everything. So the first one was, betrayal is in fact, a very different type of trauma. You know, like I said, I had been through death of a loved one and disease. I didn't want to assume that. It just felt different for me. So I asked all my study participants if you've been through other traumas, besides betrayal, does it feel different? unanimously, they said, Oh my gosh, it's so different. And here's why. Because it feels so intentional. We take it so personally. So the entire self get shattered. rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence worthiness, trust, trust, right? Like when you when you lose someone you love. You grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. You don't necessarily question the whole relationship. You don't question your sanity. You don't you don't write you don't question your ability to trust and things like that with betrayal you do. So that type of trauma needed its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation. The Complete and total rebuild of your life, which that's the invitation with other traumas you can rebuild your life by betrayal is the type of trauma where you also need to rebuild the self.

Post betrayal transformation. Yeah, yeah, it makes so much sense. And I've never heard it explained that way that it is a it is a different type of trauma. And the way you explain that is so it just it, it lit up in my head in my head, I'm like, Yes, it really, it's not just a breakdown of trust, it hits you at every single level. It

tattoos itself on your body, mind and heart, like no other trauma. And that's why people are so hard on themselves in a why they struggle to heal. It's because of that complete shattering of the self. This is the person these were the people who gave you that sense of safety and security. So when this is the person, these are the people to take it away. It's a lot to rebuild. It's a lot to rebuild. And that's why also we struggle with so many of the symptoms, which was the second discovery. The second discovery was there's actually a collection of symptoms, physical, mental and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post betrayal syndrome. And we've had over 95,000 people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. And a few things about that. The first thing is we've all been taught Time heals all wounds. Well, I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a question on the quiz that says, Is there anything else you'd like to share? People write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago, I'm unwilling to trust, my betrayal happened 40 years ago, I can still feel the heat. So we know, you cannot count on time, or a new relationship to heal it, it will follow you around like a shadow until and unless you deliberately and intentionally heel it. And every few months, I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people land. I'm happy to share some. I

would love that. And I also find before you do that, yeah. When you start to talk about when you've had betrayal, all right. And as you said it, it can come in many, many, many different ways to you and it is traumatic, do you find that there are people that can get through betrayal a little easier than others?

Absolutely. There, there were three groups in the study who did not heal. And this will become so much more clear when I share the third discovery. But there were three groups who didn't heal. The first was the group that was numbing, avoiding distracting, they ran to the doctor who put them on a mood stabilizer, and anxiety medication, they were emotionally eating, drinking whatever, may have made the day a bit easier to get through, not without a price. The second group, this was the group, they had their story, they were sticking with it, they were betrayed. That's just who they were. And it became their identity. And they shared that story. And they had their story. And at the end of the day, they had their story. And that's just about it. The third discovery, the third sorry, the third group that didn't heal this was the group where the betrayer had very little consequences. So whether it was out of financial fear not wanting to break up a family religious reasons, that was a big one, they did all they could to turn the other cheek look the other way, I saw two things with this group, number one of further deterioration of the relationship. And number two, this group was the most physically sick, your broken heart can handle that. But we're so afraid of the complete and utter death and destruction of the old but that's the only way you birth the new whether it's a new and just on my story, whether it's a new you like with my family, I healed myself and moved on wasn't an option to heal and rebuild with them. Or if the situation lends itself if you're willing, if you want to you rebuild something from the ground up new entirely different with the person who hurt you, and not long ago is to totally transform people. My husband and I married each other again, new rings, new bows, new dress and

read that that was so great. But never

in a million years would I have done something like that? Unless for sure he was totally different. And if I wasn't totally different, as well. That's the opportunity. You know, the opportunity is, everything has crashed. Why in the world? Would you build the same thing that you had, like, you know, I'll use this analogy of like Legos. You know, my kids used to love Legos. Well imagine that. There's this sort of Lego structure sitting in the corner of the room. It's not good. It's just there. And then imagine it gets knocked over? Well, you don't have to put the same thing back in the same way. You have an opportunity to say, you know, I don't want to that piece right there. I don't want to build it that way. I want to do this, I want to do that. And you make something that never would have had the opportunity to be created, had the whole thing not shatter.

Had you not broken it down. Yeah. So let me ask you, as you go into the statistics, should we go into the third? One of these before we do that, and then we can talk stats,

you know, I mean, I'm happy to share both because, or whatever way

you like to say it, because I want to make sure people are really following with the first one was that betrayal is really a different type of trauma. And then you call it post betrayal transformation, and then the symptoms, which is post, what is that post

betrayal? Post betrayal syndrome? syndrome? Yeah. So I can quickly go over the symptoms, and then share with you the third. And you'll see, these are symptoms that we assume, especially if the betrayal happened a long time ago, Oh, it must be just stress of my life, it must just be aging. No, it's not. It's a trail. So okay, so now imagine men and women just about every country's represented 95,000 plus people 78% constantly revisit their experience and pay attention to the these numbers to 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hyper vigilant. 94% deal with painful triggers. If you've ever had a trigger, it can take you write down the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue, you sleep all night, you wake up, you're exhausted, your adrenals have tanked. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can hold food down later on, you're emotionally eating using food for comfort. Rats,

incredible. These numbers are the one that so far really has stood out is that 94% are just continuously being triggered. Exactly,

exactly. And I'm going to show you how all that where all this happens in the next in the third discover 45% have a digestive issue that can be anything Crohn's, IBS, diverticulitis, that the most common mental symptoms, 70% are overwhelmed 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief 62% can't concentrate. So it's just out there, you can't concentrate, you have a gut issue, you're exhausted, you still have to go to work, you still have to raise your kids, right? Life doesn't stop. That's not even emotionally, emotionally. 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry, you can bounce back and forth between those two all day long. And it's exhausting. So

Dr. Debi, could we say that everyone or a majority of most people have some type of betrayal in their background, if

they take a look, very often there's something and it's, you know, the way it works is, the more we trust and depend on that person, the deeper that betrayal. So for example, a child who's totally dependent on their parent, they do something awful, that's going to have a different impact than your best friend sharing your secret. Your co worker taking credit for your idea, right? That your sibling who took your favorite toy and broke it and said they would never hurt your stuff. Eat Right. So it all depends, but and then there's self betrayal too. And that's huge. So if we, if we take a look, most of us have been through some of it, those micro betrayals, those death by 1000, cuts betrayal, or the big ones are so yeah, and these symptoms show up because of that. So I just want to finish a couple more of these and then I want to get to that third 60 Oh, this is why I wrote the book trust again, 84% have an inability to trust 84% 84%

Right. 10 ability not even like, you know, inability to be able to trust

not unwillingness or inability until it's healed until it feel tight. Okay. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how. Here's what's so crazy. First of all, you didn't hear me say one thing 20% 30% These numbers are super high. They're also not necessarily from a recent betrayal. As I mentioned, this could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from the boyfriend or girlfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this That person may not know care. Remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are with symptoms today, because of something left unhealed from decades ago, the good news is you can heal from all of it, that's and

we're gonna go there because this is the most important, but we still have to come up with a third 1/3 one, and then we've got to hit what we can actually do about it,

because I can't leave you with this.

Otherwise, we're all depressed right now.

So the third discovery, this, to me was the most exciting. And what was discovered was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime and so many people do, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean, those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, like I just shared, to this completely rebuilt place of post betrayal transformation, where you've rebuilt your life, you've rebuilt yourself, you're going to move through Five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, emotionally, at every stage. And we know what it takes to move from one stage to the next healing is entirely predictable. Happy to share the stages if you want to hear

Absolutely. Okay, absolutely. Because this really is what you're giving us. The fact that you found this out through all of you now you're doing all this research. And was there anyone else doing this level of research? With

a PhD study, you have to find the holes, you have to find what hasn't been studied. And what I wanted to do was when I found that there had never been a study of the lived experience of the deep, physical, mental, emotional, psychological lived experience of someone moving through a betrayal experience. I was like, well, that's clearly what I'm doing. So let's just do it. And that was, it was a sort of a no brainer. Yeah.

Okay. So now let's move into what we actually can do.

Oh, yeah. And these are the five stages, and I invite everybody to just, you will know exactly what stage you're in. And the good news is, if you know what stage you're in, then it's like, Okay, what's the shortest, quickest, most direct move to that next stage. So stage one is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing right, we're really good at that. And kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being right, if a table only has two legs, easy for that table to topple over. And that's us stage two, shock, trauma D Day discovery day, by far the scariest of all of the stages. And this is where you've gotten the news. This is like where that person takes the mask off, right. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind in the world view. Right here. You've ignited the stress response, you're now headed for every single stress related symptom, illness condition, disease, your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. It's like that weird slow motion time warp thing happening. You can't wrap your mind around what you just learned. And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that govern you that prevent chaos. This is an okay person to trust don't go there. This is how life works. And in one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've been following, right, and holding to be real and true is no longer the bottom has bottomed out on you. And the new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out a new, what do you do, you grab hold of anything you could to stay safe, right and stay alive or anyone. And that stage three, and everyone has I'm speaking there's I could tell everybody's like, hope that's where I was. Or you remember exactly where you were? Stage three survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me get out of my way, how do I survive this experience? Where do I go? Who can I trust? How do I feed my kids? Right? Here's the trap, though. Stage three, by far is the most common place we get stuck. Most people you know, are in stage three. Here's what once we've figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from. We think it's good. We're like, okay, and because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We don't know there's a stage four or stage five. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage four. But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go. We plant roots here we park here we're not supposed to. But we don't know that and four things happen. This makes sense so far. Oh, totally. Yeah,

that's making so much sense. And it is interesting that most people stay in stage three. Because it you do think I got through it. I got through it. Yes. All right, let's just keep status quo going Don't rock the boat. Exactly,

exactly. And four things happen. So the first is you start getting all those small self benefits, you get to be right. You get someone to blame, you get a target for your anger, you get sympathy from everyone you tell your story to, you don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again. Can I trust you should I trust you can forget, I'm not trusting anybody. And we're not getting much else. So on some level that that's good enough. So we planned deeper roots. Now, because we're here longer than we should be, the mind starts doing things like you know, maybe you're not all that great. Maybe you deserved it, maybe this maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. Now because we're here longer than we should be. And these are the thoughts were thinking, like energy attracts like energy. Right? So now we start attracting people and circumstances and relationships to confirm. Yep, this is where we belong. This is where we'll join that lame support group. And we will actually sabotage our healing. Because we found our people, this is where we're healing, but we will sabotage our healing because we're afraid of outgrowing our betrayer right here. And so we do these little micro things to feel better, but keep sabotaging ourselves. Because we've justified this is where we need to stay. It gets worse. Brill gets out. Because he couldn't say

what there's some there's some major things that are outgrowing our betrayer Oh,

yeah. Sorry, I can I can go through, you

know, keep going. Keep going. Because I gotta get through the list. I still have to hit that last one. Or I think you said four and five. Okay.

So so yes. So now because this is where you are, and it stinks and you're miserable. But you have to get through your day. And you don't see it getting better. Right here. We start numbing, avoiding distracting. We start using food, drugs, alcohol, whatever to numb avoid and distract ourselves from this painful place. So think about it. You do it for a day, a week, a month. Now to have it a year 20 years, Hillary I did see someone 20 years later and say that emotional eating you're doing Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I'm crazy. You see me 20 years ago. Do you see all they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there? Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I wrote from hardened to heal. The trust again, maps out the five stages hard to heal. There's like everybody's just in stage three. That's a book just for them. You owe it to yourself to move through the stage. The worst of it happened already. What in the world? Are you doing hanging out in the worst place? There is where everybody else is stuck too. So Right. Yeah,

it is interesting when you talk to people and stuck is one of the I even did a seven day on stuck challenge. Because stuck is where most people, most people live, they decide that this is you know what, this just is easier than dealing with the next. So tell us about the next stage. Yeah,

if you grieve, mourn the loss bunch of things you need to do you move to stage four, stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge, I can't change what happened. But mine control what I do with it. Just in that decision, you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet. But you stopped just in that decision, the massive damage you've been creating, in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, all your stuffs not there. It's that cozy a bit. You're like, okay, we can do this. We got this, if like that. But if you were to move, you don't take everything with you, right. And it was so interesting, because there's one place in stage three, moving to stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, you've outgrown them right here. You don't take them with you, that lame support group. You don't take them with you that betrayer who isn't changing. You've made the decision to grow without them to stay very significant. I see that all the time. Anyway, when you've settled into stage four, you've made it cozy, you've made it mentally home, you move into the fifth most beautiful stage and this is healing rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal self love, self care, eating well exercise. He didn't have the bandwidth for that you were you were surviving. Now you do. The mind is healing. You're making all kinds of new rules do boundaries, based on the road you just traveled? And you have a whole new worldview based on everything you see so clearly and so differently now and the four legs of the table in the beginning it was all about the physical and the mental By this point, we're solidly grounded. Because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual to, those are the first. So

Dr. Debi, if you have, even by just hearing this multiple situations where you've had betrayal, do you have to take each and every one through these five stages? Or can you lump them together and do it all at once?

You know, it would wouldn't serve you best to lump them all together. But what I would say is a repeat betrayal is a classic sign of an unhealed betrayal, we see it in health work relationships. So for example, in relationships, I'll see an unhealed betrayal. And one of two ways that when you just said, repeat betrayal, the face has changed, but it's the same thing. And we say, What the heck is it me I keep going from friend to friend to friend, partner to partner to partner, you know, boss, the boss, the boss, yes, it is not in that it's your fault. In that it's your opportunity, there is a profound lesson, waiting to be learned. You are lovable, worthy and deserve. You need better boundaries in place, whatever it is, until and unless you get that you're going to have opportunities in the form of people to teach you look at my example, my family, I thought I did what I needed to do to heal, then it was my husband. And then for me to join a pH enroll in a Ph. D program, I had never done anything for myself to that magnitude. At that level. At that age. I mean, everything about it was some crazy crowd. But it changed my life. Lesson learned.

And now you're changing everyone else's. And so when people are hearing this, and they're saying, Okay, wow, I could potentially be stuck in stage three, with you know, everyone else. What is the program that you actually provide? What is that look like? How long does something like this take to go through the stages and get to that point? Where you're at stage five? Yeah,

so the most important factor, people ask me, How long does it take the most important factor is willingness, the more willing you are. And the less resistant you are, the faster you'll change, we have a three month program, it's our reclaim program. And if you are really willing, and you do the work, I mean, everything is so strategic and systematic, we will strategically move you through the stages, you know, or at least move at a stage or two within that period of time. And this is where people say, Oh my gosh, but I've been seeing a therapist for years. And I'm a psychologist, but I will tell you, I'm a coach first. And if one thing more than anything, I've seen one of the one of the factors that keeps people stuck more than anything. It's seeing somebody over and over and weekly, right, going over and unpacking your same story without a strategic plan to move forward. Think about what happens with that. We're solidifying our story. We're revalidating the trauma. Well, yes, we feel heard. But what else do you get, besides feeling heard? Not a step closer towards the next stage. So in answer to your question, within the PBT Institute, I mean, everything is numbered according to what stage you're in. So we have classes, daily classes in our certified coaches and our signature programs, everything as you come in, and stage two, you do everything for stage two, until you get to stage three, you're in stage two, you do everything you do until stage four. And it's all even the type of support, we don't want the type of support that keeps you stuck, and you can't grow because you outgrow them. The whole idea is the support that that's needed is one to lift and inspire even our coaches, we have some coaches that are so great. At stage two, let's say when your nervous system is so completely dysregulated and you're in such deep trauma. And then when you're in let's stay stage four, stage five, self growth, you know, things like that. So it all depends on where you are. But it's it's so Sarah,

is there a way for listeners right now to to really understand. How do we know if we haven't healed from a betrayal?

I will tell you Yeah, it's a great question. I started saying it before I didn't finish. It was the in relationships. If you have a repeat betrayal, it's unhealed. The other way we see it the big wall goes up. You're like nope, been there done that. No one's getting close to me again, right. We think that's coming from a place of strength. It's not it's coming from fear. Our hearts been so hurt, that we would rather keep everyone at a distance than risk that level of vulnerability. It's too it's too terrifying. That's an unhealed betrayal. In health, you could go to the best doctors, coaches, healers therapists to manage a stress related symptom illness condition disease and the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. Like think of all the symptoms of post betrayal syndrome. You could be medicating or suppressing every single one of those symptoms. But if at the root In a bit, like, for example, 45% of everyone betrayed has a gut issue, you can go to the most well meaning gut doctors on the planet, I'm friends with many of them at but you can only get to a certain extent of your healing, if at the root of it is that betrayal that's causing it in the first place. We see it at work. You deserve that raise your promotion, but your confidence was shattered. So you don't have the competence to ask when you're bitter and resentful instead, or you want to be a team player, collaborative partner, but the person you trusted, the most proved untrustworthy, how can you trust that boss, that co worker that partner, so it's showing that could

literally show up not only in your personal life, but professional as well, it doesn't pick and choose where it's going to show up, not

only could it show up, it has no other choice, but show up in all those areas until and unless you deliberately and intentionally move through the stages. When you like, for example, we you know, we have people going into stages four and stage five, it is very common to see first of all, all of those health issues just disappear. They go. They we see people forming new businesses, we see like the PBTS do that was a stage five thing. We see people getting married again to or have a new relationship with their existing partner in a very different level or a new relationship, that stage five thing when you're stuck in your trauma. You don't have access to that we see new levels of health. You can't do that. If all you're doing is surviving.

It is so incredible. Everything you're saying. So how can people get involved with you go through your process? How do they find more?

No, thank you. Everything is at the PBT is in post betrayal transformation, the PBT institute.com. And we even have a program for the betrayer. You know, there are some betrayers? Who are just they're on to the next no remorse, no regret nothing. I'm not talking about them. But for the ones who realized what in the world did I just do? It's incredible to work with them, because their transformations are as profound as the betrayed and we have lots of couples, one goes through a reclaim for the betrayed, one goes through a rebuild for the betrayer. And they end up as two very different people.

Ah, this is so great. And Debi, thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you for going back and saying I'm going to figure this out, because I need to figure it out for myself so that I can help others. It is it's so incredible, as you have put it into the the vessel that people can actually understand, right, we can get it it's before betrayal was just this like it's out there. But nobody really understood what was really going on. And how they could actually take back and move through it. Which is which is so critical. So thank you so much for being on the relaunch podcast. And for you know, for you out there. If you're starting to you know, think ha maybe some of this is really resonating. Like she said, 94% of us are triggered by something that caused a that could have been a betrayal, and you just want to figure out a little bit more. It's that self work, right? We talked about self betrayal, we talk about like, how can you help yourself so that you can bring in all of these incredible things that ultimately even even after 50 We want to be doing so thank you. And for everyone out there. Live now love now relaunch now into that next best version of you. And you got to do the hard stuff sometimes in order to get to that really great place in your life. So definitely reach out to Dr. Debi. We will have it in the show notes. But again, Debi, thanks for being here.

Thank you, Hilary.

Yeah, wonderful. And everyone. We will see you again next week. Take care.

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