Why I Left: The Dark Truth About Joseph Smith That Led Me to Abandon Mormonism

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this entire time.

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All of that stuff just has

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really disturbed me over

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the last couple of days.

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And I've kind of been in this rabbit hole.

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I would really like to have

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your opinion because I am

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I'm really having a hard time with this.

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And I'm really upset about

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just the entire dynamic of

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Like it feels like the

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church leaders have been

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lying to us all along and

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that they've covered it up

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this entire time.

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All of that stuff just has

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really disturbed me over

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the last couple of days and

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I've kind of been in this rabbit hole.

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I would really like to have

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your opinion because I am,

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I'm really having a hard

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time with this

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welcome to the midlife

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revolution thanks for being

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here everybody and thank

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you for your patience while

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i got everything settled

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outside of the closet

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um i think last wednesday we

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left off the episode about

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my faith crisis a little

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sooner than i wanted to

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because of my technical

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difficulties and so i

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wanted to finish um the

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video that i started out

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with i posted on tick tock

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a shortened version of my

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meltdown in the car where i

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was at a point where i had gotten

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so much information about

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some of the truth claims of

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the church that i didn't

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really know what to do and

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then i as i continued

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digging i found some

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information that disturbed

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me well here's what's

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interesting about it these

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are it's information that i

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knew for a long time this

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was nothing new to me

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um the difference is that

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when you are in the church

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and you are trying so hard

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to uh just live your life

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according to the teachings

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of the church lots of times

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when problems come up you

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sort of explain them away

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and what the saying in the

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church was that you're

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supposed to just put them

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on the shelf there was a

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famous talk that one of the

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women leaders gave when i was a teenager

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that said that just if

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there's something you don't

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understand or something

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that you are wrestling with

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or struggling with,

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and it's a question that

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can't be answered,

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just put it on the shelf.

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And then someday we'll know

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everything we need to know.

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You can ask God when you see

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him or God will reveal it

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to the prophets and you'll be fine.

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So that's why a lot of times

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when Mormons leave the church,

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they say my shelf broke

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because there were so many

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things on the shelf.

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I kept putting things on the

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shelf over and over and

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finally my shelf broke.

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And this is what happened to me as well.

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I had a lot of things on my

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shelf and the meltdown in

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the car was me taking

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things off the shelf and

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examining them and looking

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at them for the first time

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from the perspective of,

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critical thinking rather

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than magical thinking and

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trying to bring in facts

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where before there had just

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been feelings.

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And people will often

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comment when I talk about

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leaving the church that they will say,

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don't forget the feelings

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that you have because the

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church teaches us to,

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when we feel that burning sensation of,

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when we feel that burning in

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our heart that warm feeling

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that's supposed to be the

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holy ghost telling us that

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what we're hearing is true

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and so we rely on those

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feelings rather than on

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facts because the story of

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joseph smith is frankly

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unbelievable that god and

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jesus christ appeared to

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him and told him that he

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was going to be a prophet um so

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If you think about that

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story just from a factual standpoint,

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it doesn't make a lot of sense, right?

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You have to make a lot of

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room for conjecture.

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And what I have come to find

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is that the solution that

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requires the least amount

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of conjecture is likely the

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truest explanation for something.

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When I was in the church,

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I was told to just be faithful,

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just pray harder,

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just get a better witness, you know,

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just keep believing.

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No matter what you do,

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just keep believing.

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And that allowed me to look

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beyond a lot of facts and a

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lot of logical explanations

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because I was trying to be

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faithful and come at it

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from a faithful perspective.

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so i knew all about polygamy

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um or at least i thought i

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did growing up in the

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church i knew that polygamy

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was a practice in the

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church what i was told is

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that it was something we

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did a long time ago the

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church officially disavowed

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it it was a temporary thing

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and then you know when the

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church denounced it we

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completely moved away from

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polygamy and we'll never have to

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do it again in this life,

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and then God will explain

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why he did that later.

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That's what I was taught as

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a child and as a youth growing up.

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As a young adult,

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I came to understand that a

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lot of people believed that

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it was Brigham Young who

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instituted the practice of

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polygamy after the saints

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went to the Utah Territory.

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Then facts started to come

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out that said that actually

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Joseph Smith did institute polygamy.

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Then we were told he had a few wives,

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but it was after the revelation,

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section one,

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thirty two of the Doctrine

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and Covenants came out,

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which we're going to go

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over a whole timeline.

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And then that Emma knew

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about it and that she was

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fine with the revelation

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because it was explained to

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her from a faithful standpoint.

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then so much information

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came out about joseph smith

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being the one who actually

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instituted polygamy that

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the church started having

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to make some concessions

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for the historical accuracy

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of those accounts and there

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was a woman named sandra

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tanner who did a lot of

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research on not just

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polygamy but church history

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in general the book of

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mormon and she really was

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the pioneer is the pioneer

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of so much of this research,

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compiling the research,

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and she and her husband put

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out several books, pamphlets, essays,

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things like that,

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to help people have a true

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historical frame for Mormonism.

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So during this time of research,

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I had always known polygamy

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was a problem for me,

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it was an issue for me,

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and the idea that we don't

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practice it anymore really isn't true.

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Because when you get married in the temple,

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man and a woman get married,

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let's say the wife dies.

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Well,

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the man can be eternally sealed to

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another woman.

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Let's say a man and woman

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get married and the man dies.

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The woman cannot be

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eternally sealed to another man.

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So at this current time,

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there are two leaders of

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the church who are sealed

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to multiple women.

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That's basically polygamy,

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except for the fact that

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their wives did pass away,

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but then they married another woman.

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They were sealed to them eternally.

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So what they believe,

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the top two leaders of the church,

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Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks,

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what they believe is that

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they will have both of

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those women as wives in the afterlife.

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So to say that we don't

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practice polygamy anymore

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and it's not part of our

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faith is not really accurate.

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So during this time of

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questioning everything and

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taking everything off my shelf, I finally,

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after this car meltdown,

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decided that I was going to

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attack polygamy from the

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standpoint of like,

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I just have ignored and all

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of this stuff.

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And I've been told so many

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different things.

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I don't know what's true anymore.

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So I'm going to go find out the truth.

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And I came across a lecture

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that Sandra Tanner was

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giving to a group of other

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Christian leaders.

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It was talking about why

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Mormons leave the church.

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And I would like to share it with you.

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How do you rationalize

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Joseph Smith approaching

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teenage girls and women

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that are married and have

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living husbands and telling

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them they have to go into polygamy?

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And by the way,

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be sure you don't mention

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this to my wife.

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And the Mormon scholars all know this.

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This is not a historical

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thing that they challenge.

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They just have to, well,

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this fellow I had dinner with,

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I said to him,

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How do you avoid the

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conclusion that Joseph

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Smith was a sexual predator?

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And he says, whoa, that's pretty strong.

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And I said,

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but how do you avoid that conclusion?

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If you look at the story,

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it seems obvious that

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that's what you have.

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And he says, well,

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I believe he was sincere.

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He thought he was following

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God kind of thing.

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And I said, well,

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David Koresh was probably sincere.

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And you could name all the

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polygamists are sincere.

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There's all kinds of people

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out there that are sincere.

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But that doesn't mean they

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may not be promoting

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something that's very,

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very wrong

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So when I heard Sandra

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Tanner refer to Joseph

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Smith as a sexual predator,

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it really caught my

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attention because I am a

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survivor of multiple types

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of assaults and abuse.

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And it was the first time

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that the cognitive

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dissonance of my survivor

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brain and my Mormon brain

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started fighting with each

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other because during my

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trauma healing and my

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recovery i finally learned

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the words that i needed to

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describe what happened to

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me i learned what a

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predator was i learned what

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grooming was i learned how

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manipulation and control

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happens and to hear sandra

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tanner refer to joseph

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smith as a predator blew my mind

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Because I didn't think that

00:11:23.897 --> 00:11:25.078

that was the case.

00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:27.701

I thought that all of his wives...

00:11:29.010 --> 00:11:30.851

had given consent and I

00:11:30.871 --> 00:11:32.052

thought that they had all

00:11:32.692 --> 00:11:33.713

agreed to do this.

00:11:33.753 --> 00:11:35.854

And I knew the apologetic

00:11:35.954 --> 00:11:37.975

argument that some of his

00:11:38.015 --> 00:11:39.676

wives were just spiritual wives.

00:11:39.696 --> 00:11:40.416

They were not,

00:11:42.057 --> 00:11:44.498

they were ceilings for eternity only,

00:11:44.658 --> 00:11:46.339

that he didn't live with any of them,

00:11:46.859 --> 00:11:48.460

that there was no offspring

00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:49.661

produced from any of these.

00:11:49.761 --> 00:11:51.942

And so all of these like

00:11:51.982 --> 00:11:54.063

conflicting ideas were just

00:11:54.103 --> 00:11:55.364

swimming around in my head

00:11:55.404 --> 00:11:56.745

and I was trying to make sense of them.

00:11:57.645 --> 00:12:00.007

so i decided to go look at

00:12:00.107 --> 00:12:01.608

some source documents and

00:12:01.628 --> 00:12:04.310

what i really wanted was

00:12:04.831 --> 00:12:06.512

the first-hand accounts of

00:12:06.552 --> 00:12:10.215

these women now i am not

00:12:10.795 --> 00:12:12.857

prepared to give a

00:12:12.937 --> 00:12:15.399

comprehensive explanation

00:12:15.619 --> 00:12:18.561

of polygamy so this is not

00:12:19.442 --> 00:12:24.005

intended to be a a just a definitive um

00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:27.380

the last word on polygamy, comprehensive,

00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:29.500

it would take such a long

00:12:29.540 --> 00:12:31.201

time to dig into all of that,

00:12:31.881 --> 00:12:33.242

that I really just wanted

00:12:33.282 --> 00:12:35.783

to give sort of an overview

00:12:35.923 --> 00:12:37.303

of the things that I think

00:12:37.343 --> 00:12:38.664

people misunderstand the

00:12:38.724 --> 00:12:40.804

most and the things that I didn't know,

00:12:41.484 --> 00:12:42.945

which when I discovered them,

00:12:43.345 --> 00:12:45.786

finally became the last straw for me.

00:12:47.201 --> 00:12:49.062

So after hearing just this

00:12:49.102 --> 00:12:50.703

snippet from Sandra Tanner,

00:12:50.743 --> 00:12:51.784

I didn't even listen to the

00:12:51.824 --> 00:12:52.905

rest of the lecture because

00:12:52.945 --> 00:12:53.985

my mind was so blown.

00:12:54.105 --> 00:12:54.486

I was like,

00:12:54.646 --> 00:12:55.906

I am immediately going down a

00:12:55.946 --> 00:12:58.308

rabbit hole to look for source documents.

00:12:58.728 --> 00:12:59.629

So that's what I did.

00:13:00.569 --> 00:13:03.231

And I think it would be

00:13:03.271 --> 00:13:04.392

helpful to just for you

00:13:04.412 --> 00:13:06.013

guys to go over just a

00:13:06.093 --> 00:13:10.315

brief timeline of polygamy

00:13:10.435 --> 00:13:12.217

in Joseph Smith's era.

00:13:12.273 --> 00:13:12.943

so the church

00:13:13.203 --> 00:13:18.125

was founded in uh so this

00:13:18.425 --> 00:13:19.946

is the timeline of how this

00:13:20.006 --> 00:13:21.967

all happened okay um

00:13:23.123 --> 00:13:24.864

In eighteen twenty was the

00:13:24.904 --> 00:13:25.784

first time that Joseph

00:13:25.804 --> 00:13:27.305

Smith wrote down about

00:13:27.365 --> 00:13:29.026

having a vision of God and Jesus Christ.

00:13:29.066 --> 00:13:30.707

But this all comes after that.

00:13:31.267 --> 00:13:32.728

So in eighteen twenty three,

00:13:32.948 --> 00:13:34.509

that's when and I'm going

00:13:34.529 --> 00:13:35.670

to put all this in quotes

00:13:35.890 --> 00:13:38.691

because this is what the claim is.

00:13:38.852 --> 00:13:39.112

Right.

00:13:39.272 --> 00:13:41.053

I'm not I'm not presenting this as fact.

00:13:41.821 --> 00:13:42.982

Moroni appears to Joseph

00:13:43.002 --> 00:13:44.704

Smith and quotes prophecies

00:13:44.804 --> 00:13:46.426

about restoring the sealing

00:13:46.466 --> 00:13:47.848

keys as part of the priesthood.

00:13:48.509 --> 00:13:49.710

In eighteen twenty seven,

00:13:49.770 --> 00:13:51.112

he marries Emma Hale,

00:13:51.832 --> 00:13:53.414

his first and only legal wife.

00:13:54.375 --> 00:13:55.396

In eighteen twenty nine,

00:13:55.416 --> 00:13:56.918

he translates the Book of Mormon

00:13:57.879 --> 00:13:58.940

in the book of jacob in the

00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:00.021

book of mormon there's some

00:14:00.101 --> 00:14:01.763

allusions to like when

00:14:01.783 --> 00:14:02.944

polygamy is authorized by

00:14:02.984 --> 00:14:04.486

god i'm not gonna dig into

00:14:04.566 --> 00:14:05.507

all of that right now

00:14:06.087 --> 00:14:07.248

that's for that's a rabbit

00:14:07.268 --> 00:14:09.370

hole for another time and

00:14:09.410 --> 00:14:12.493

then in june is when the

00:14:12.513 --> 00:14:14.275

church was restored and

00:14:14.315 --> 00:14:15.496

that was when joseph smith

00:14:15.696 --> 00:14:17.638

started revising the bible

00:14:18.649 --> 00:14:20.651

um and and the reason why

00:14:21.051 --> 00:14:22.132

these things are important

00:14:22.172 --> 00:14:25.075

to note is because this to

00:14:25.155 --> 00:14:27.037

me shows that it was a very

00:14:27.097 --> 00:14:29.158

methodical planned out

00:14:29.319 --> 00:14:31.360

strategy by joseph smith to

00:14:31.601 --> 00:14:33.683

little by little introduce

00:14:33.723 --> 00:14:37.266

the idea of multiple wives and polygamy

00:14:39.025 --> 00:14:41.327

If we look at it from the standpoint of,

00:14:41.668 --> 00:14:42.008

I think,

00:14:42.489 --> 00:14:45.492

all of these predatory situations,

00:14:45.972 --> 00:14:47.914

people who lead high

00:14:47.954 --> 00:14:49.836

control groups are in it

00:14:49.876 --> 00:14:50.777

for three things.

00:14:51.057 --> 00:14:52.839

And I learned this during my

00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:53.980

cousin Lori's trial.

00:14:54.561 --> 00:14:56.363

It really sums up so much of

00:14:56.403 --> 00:14:58.225

why people do anything.

00:14:58.785 --> 00:15:00.687

Money, power, and sex.

00:15:01.488 --> 00:15:02.449

And if you think about it,

00:15:02.869 --> 00:15:04.110

Joseph Smith already had

00:15:04.150 --> 00:15:05.571

the power because he had

00:15:05.611 --> 00:15:07.072

lots of followers at this point.

00:15:07.493 --> 00:15:08.613

He was starting to get a lot

00:15:08.633 --> 00:15:10.135

of money because people

00:15:10.195 --> 00:15:12.296

were making sure that he

00:15:12.336 --> 00:15:15.118

and his family were well cared for.

00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:17.280

His home in Nauvoo,

00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:18.941

Illinois was referred to as

00:15:19.021 --> 00:15:19.962

the mansion house.

00:15:20.042 --> 00:15:22.123

It was a very big house for the time.

00:15:22.204 --> 00:15:23.364

And if you've ever been to

00:15:23.404 --> 00:15:24.425

Nauvoo and seen like the

00:15:24.485 --> 00:15:25.406

other little houses,

00:15:25.846 --> 00:15:27.067

Joseph Smith was much bigger.

00:15:27.127 --> 00:15:27.968

He had plenty.

00:15:29.069 --> 00:15:30.790

And so this was kind of the third house

00:15:31.949 --> 00:15:33.790

rung to that stool right

00:15:33.810 --> 00:15:35.652

that that he wanted to find

00:15:35.732 --> 00:15:37.173

a way to have access to

00:15:37.193 --> 00:15:41.596

women so this timeline i

00:15:41.616 --> 00:15:43.117

think shows a very

00:15:43.177 --> 00:15:46.339

methodical lead up to being

00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:47.680

able to introduce that

00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:49.161

legitimate legitimately

00:15:49.181 --> 00:15:50.022

because he could have done

00:15:50.082 --> 00:15:51.063

it secretly but i think

00:15:51.083 --> 00:15:52.163

what he really wanted was

00:15:52.203 --> 00:15:53.364

for everyone to be on board

00:15:53.384 --> 00:15:55.106

with it and for him to be

00:15:55.166 --> 00:15:58.568

able to get exactly what he wanted so in

00:16:01.787 --> 00:16:02.988

Joseph Smith receives a

00:16:03.048 --> 00:16:04.608

revelation affirming that

00:16:04.648 --> 00:16:05.888

marriage is ordained of God,

00:16:07.189 --> 00:16:08.749

and then starts talking

00:16:08.789 --> 00:16:10.890

about the idea of plural marriage.

00:16:12.350 --> 00:16:13.611

In July of that year,

00:16:13.691 --> 00:16:15.031

he reportedly receives a

00:16:15.071 --> 00:16:17.532

revelation informing a group of elders,

00:16:17.752 --> 00:16:18.752

these are basically just

00:16:18.792 --> 00:16:20.313

leaders of the church in Missouri,

00:16:20.333 --> 00:16:21.053

that they should take

00:16:21.093 --> 00:16:23.134

plural wives among the Native Americans.

00:16:24.107 --> 00:16:26.029

that's again a rabbit hole

00:16:26.049 --> 00:16:27.269

for another time a very

00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:29.451

problematic part of mormon

00:16:29.491 --> 00:16:31.493

history is that they

00:16:31.513 --> 00:16:32.854

believed that they needed

00:16:32.894 --> 00:16:35.616

to help to tame the natives

00:16:35.936 --> 00:16:37.037

quote unquote these are

00:16:37.057 --> 00:16:39.179

their words and to

00:16:41.309 --> 00:16:43.370

turn them into a fair and

00:16:43.390 --> 00:16:44.391

delightsome people.

00:16:44.551 --> 00:16:45.471

There are parts of the Book

00:16:45.491 --> 00:16:46.632

of Mormon that talk about

00:16:47.492 --> 00:16:48.813

white skin being white and

00:16:48.853 --> 00:16:51.674

delightsome and black skin being a curse.

00:16:52.214 --> 00:16:53.755

And the Mormons believed at

00:16:53.775 --> 00:16:56.116

that time that if they took

00:16:56.477 --> 00:16:58.217

Indian women to wife and

00:16:58.277 --> 00:16:59.258

had children with them,

00:16:59.618 --> 00:17:00.459

that the children would

00:17:00.619 --> 00:17:02.640

gradually become whiter and whiter,

00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:03.960

and that would make them

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:04.981

more and more righteous.

00:17:05.601 --> 00:17:07.042

If you've never heard this before,

00:17:07.222 --> 00:17:08.302

it is very shocking,

00:17:08.402 --> 00:17:11.383

horrible part of Mormon history that,

00:17:11.463 --> 00:17:11.824

again,

00:17:11.984 --> 00:17:13.864

not a lot of LDS people like to

00:17:13.904 --> 00:17:14.965

think about or talk about,

00:17:15.625 --> 00:17:16.785

but it's there.

00:17:16.866 --> 00:17:17.326

And again,

00:17:17.426 --> 00:17:18.666

it's a rabbit hole for another

00:17:18.706 --> 00:17:20.047

time that we will dig into.

00:17:20.087 --> 00:17:21.047

So that was kind of the

00:17:21.087 --> 00:17:22.488

first mention of polygamy

00:17:23.088 --> 00:17:25.189

was having elders or

00:17:25.249 --> 00:17:27.450

leaders in the church take

00:17:28.290 --> 00:17:30.431

Native Americans as wives.

00:17:32.728 --> 00:17:34.369

Then in eighteen thirty-two,

00:17:34.589 --> 00:17:35.669

Joseph Smith and Sidney

00:17:35.709 --> 00:17:36.910

Rigdon were tarred and

00:17:36.950 --> 00:17:39.711

feathered by a mob in Hiram, Ohio.

00:17:40.311 --> 00:17:41.131

Fifty years later,

00:17:41.171 --> 00:17:42.552

a source alleges that it

00:17:42.572 --> 00:17:43.932

was in retaliation for an

00:17:44.092 --> 00:17:45.113

intimate relationship

00:17:45.153 --> 00:17:46.153

Joseph had with a young

00:17:46.173 --> 00:17:48.694

woman and his future plural

00:17:49.034 --> 00:17:51.395

wife named Marinda Nancy Johnson.

00:17:51.915 --> 00:17:53.976

Now, as a child and a young adult,

00:17:54.156 --> 00:17:55.237

I was always taught that

00:17:55.277 --> 00:17:57.638

the reason why Joseph and

00:17:57.718 --> 00:17:59.058

Sidney suffered this

00:17:59.118 --> 00:18:00.699

horrible tar and feathering

00:18:01.699 --> 00:18:03.680

was because people didn't

00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.501

like Mormons and people

00:18:05.521 --> 00:18:06.421

didn't like the fact that

00:18:06.461 --> 00:18:07.822

Joseph Smith talked about

00:18:07.862 --> 00:18:10.363

seeing God in Jesus Christ.

00:18:10.383 --> 00:18:13.185

That's what I was taught as a child.

00:18:14.085 --> 00:18:15.586

Digging into the history,

00:18:16.166 --> 00:18:18.767

we find out that there was among the mob,

00:18:18.947 --> 00:18:21.408

a physician who they had brought along,

00:18:22.189 --> 00:18:23.369

the mob had brought along

00:18:23.669 --> 00:18:25.230

because they had asked him

00:18:25.290 --> 00:18:26.791

to castrate Joseph Smith.

00:18:28.541 --> 00:18:29.784

because the reason they were

00:18:29.824 --> 00:18:31.407

attacking him was because

00:18:31.447 --> 00:18:33.230

of this terrible affair

00:18:33.270 --> 00:18:34.653

that he had had with a young woman.

00:18:36.033 --> 00:18:36.893

That's the part of the

00:18:36.913 --> 00:18:38.754

history that I never got taught.

00:18:39.274 --> 00:18:40.774

Now, lucky for Joseph,

00:18:40.814 --> 00:18:42.415

the doctor decided at the

00:18:42.455 --> 00:18:44.335

last minute not to go through with it,

00:18:44.375 --> 00:18:45.556

that he couldn't stomach it.

00:18:46.256 --> 00:18:47.516

But just knowing that he was

00:18:47.556 --> 00:18:48.416

there and the reason for

00:18:48.476 --> 00:18:49.237

him being there

00:18:49.537 --> 00:18:51.197

corroborates this idea that

00:18:51.237 --> 00:18:52.618

he was being tarred and feathered,

00:18:53.098 --> 00:18:54.278

not because he was being

00:18:54.338 --> 00:18:55.578

persecuted for his faith,

00:18:55.618 --> 00:18:57.379

but because he had been

00:18:57.439 --> 00:18:58.779

caught doing inappropriate

00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:03.161

things with young women.

00:19:03.221 --> 00:19:04.801

So back to the timeline.

00:19:06.451 --> 00:19:08.211

according to mary elizabeth

00:19:08.251 --> 00:19:10.212

rollins leitner who had a

00:19:10.272 --> 00:19:12.452

lot of journal writings

00:19:12.492 --> 00:19:15.093

about this time period and

00:19:15.173 --> 00:19:16.273

others an angel with a

00:19:16.313 --> 00:19:17.554

drawn sword appears to

00:19:17.594 --> 00:19:18.634

joseph smith for the first

00:19:18.694 --> 00:19:19.834

of three times between

00:19:19.934 --> 00:19:21.015

eighteen thirty four and

00:19:21.095 --> 00:19:21.855

eighteen forty two

00:19:21.895 --> 00:19:23.695

commanding him to practice

00:19:23.735 --> 00:19:25.456

plural marriage isn't that

00:19:25.496 --> 00:19:28.156

convenient that an angel

00:19:28.196 --> 00:19:29.677

threatens him with death if

00:19:29.717 --> 00:19:35.158

he doesn't start marrying plural wives um

00:19:36.451 --> 00:19:38.472

So Joseph's first plural

00:19:38.512 --> 00:19:40.073

wife was Fanny Alger

00:19:42.014 --> 00:19:43.174

sometime between eighteen

00:19:43.214 --> 00:19:45.035

thirty three and eighteen thirty five.

00:19:47.296 --> 00:19:50.077

I want to go quickly to a

00:19:50.117 --> 00:19:53.079

biography of Fanny Alger.

00:19:53.551 --> 00:19:54.351

So this,

00:19:54.812 --> 00:19:56.172

and I also want to share with you

00:19:56.212 --> 00:19:57.953

the sources that I'm using here.

00:19:58.633 --> 00:20:00.454

This website is called

00:20:00.494 --> 00:20:02.615

josephsmithspolygamy.org,

00:20:02.795 --> 00:20:05.156

and it is a faithful website.

00:20:05.216 --> 00:20:07.477

This website was created and

00:20:07.497 --> 00:20:11.659

maintained by a couple who are

00:20:12.797 --> 00:20:16.161

very well-versed in church history.

00:20:17.042 --> 00:20:19.484

And they wanted to create a

00:20:19.524 --> 00:20:20.585

website that would help

00:20:20.625 --> 00:20:21.927

people frame polygamy in

00:20:21.947 --> 00:20:23.048

the right way so that you

00:20:23.088 --> 00:20:24.429

could understand the truth

00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:26.431

of the history of polygamy,

00:20:26.832 --> 00:20:27.913

but remain faithful.

00:20:31.482 --> 00:20:32.662

um so everything that they

00:20:32.682 --> 00:20:35.084

have posted here is done so

00:20:35.164 --> 00:20:36.484

under fair use because they

00:20:36.544 --> 00:20:38.406

don't make any money from

00:20:38.466 --> 00:20:40.146

running this website i

00:20:40.166 --> 00:20:41.347

highly recommend you going

00:20:41.387 --> 00:20:44.869

to it because i think that

00:20:45.629 --> 00:20:47.591

if you objectively look at

00:20:47.691 --> 00:20:51.893

all of the facts um that

00:20:52.093 --> 00:20:53.394

you even though they're

00:20:53.414 --> 00:20:55.495

writing this from a faithful perspective

00:20:56.988 --> 00:21:00.152

I think the conclusions that I came to,

00:21:00.232 --> 00:21:02.194

the conclusions that one would come to,

00:21:02.995 --> 00:21:04.637

even reading the faithful

00:21:04.697 --> 00:21:05.859

perspective of it,

00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:08.221

makes it really impossible

00:21:08.261 --> 00:21:09.483

to ignore that the way that

00:21:09.523 --> 00:21:10.704

this was done was very

00:21:10.764 --> 00:21:11.926

predatory in nature.

00:21:15.500 --> 00:21:17.640

I will also say that I get a

00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:20.621

ton of comments like this one.

00:21:21.241 --> 00:21:22.301

Thomas, one, two, three.

00:21:22.802 --> 00:21:23.782

Thanks for being here.

00:21:24.022 --> 00:21:24.502

Not sad.

00:21:24.542 --> 00:21:24.782

Why?

00:21:24.982 --> 00:21:25.822

Or sorry, not sad.

00:21:25.982 --> 00:21:28.023

Not sure why you would want

00:21:28.063 --> 00:21:29.263

to listen to someone talk

00:21:29.283 --> 00:21:30.203

about why they left the

00:21:30.243 --> 00:21:33.804

church if you are unhappy about it.

00:21:34.484 --> 00:21:35.304

But I get this.

00:21:35.564 --> 00:21:36.964

It's so sad that you traded

00:21:36.984 --> 00:21:38.545

your exaltation for leaving.

00:21:39.625 --> 00:21:40.345

Well, obviously,

00:21:40.385 --> 00:21:41.845

that's not the way that I see it.

00:21:42.205 --> 00:21:44.406

The way that I see it is that I...

00:21:45.813 --> 00:21:47.755

stopped listening to

00:21:47.855 --> 00:21:49.697

apologetics and started

00:21:51.058 --> 00:21:54.642

researching facts and so

00:21:54.702 --> 00:21:55.903

the way that i see it is

00:21:55.943 --> 00:21:57.264

that i traded magical

00:21:57.304 --> 00:21:58.385

thinking for critical

00:21:58.425 --> 00:22:00.608

thinking and i would rather

00:22:00.648 --> 00:22:01.248

know the truth

00:22:03.544 --> 00:22:05.346

um some people do not want

00:22:05.366 --> 00:22:06.686

to know the truth and

00:22:06.706 --> 00:22:08.728

that's okay some people

00:22:09.228 --> 00:22:12.030

want to remain in mormonism

00:22:12.070 --> 00:22:13.431

blissfully ignorant and

00:22:13.471 --> 00:22:15.173

that is okay i think

00:22:15.233 --> 00:22:16.994

religion is necessary for a

00:22:17.034 --> 00:22:18.895

lot of people and i'm not

00:22:18.995 --> 00:22:21.017

ever trying to cause anyone

00:22:21.097 --> 00:22:22.238

else to leave the church

00:22:23.299 --> 00:22:25.220

what i like to do is make

00:22:25.260 --> 00:22:26.321

sure that people have

00:22:26.521 --> 00:22:28.382

informed consent so if

00:22:28.422 --> 00:22:30.124

people do want to know the truth

00:22:31.283 --> 00:22:32.284

they learn the truth and

00:22:32.304 --> 00:22:33.925

then continue to stay that

00:22:33.986 --> 00:22:38.930

is perfectly fine it i my

00:22:38.970 --> 00:22:40.011

faith crisis was the

00:22:40.031 --> 00:22:40.892

hardest thing i've ever

00:22:40.932 --> 00:22:41.672

been through and

00:22:41.732 --> 00:22:42.813

considering what i've been

00:22:42.853 --> 00:22:44.074

through that is saying a

00:22:44.114 --> 00:22:47.838

lot um i would not wish

00:22:47.878 --> 00:22:49.539

that on my worst enemy i

00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:50.580

wouldn't want anybody to

00:22:50.620 --> 00:22:51.541

have to go through a faith

00:22:51.561 --> 00:22:54.884

crisis but being a truth teller

00:22:56.490 --> 00:22:58.031

I do not want to stay silent

00:22:58.071 --> 00:22:59.532

about my experiences and

00:22:59.552 --> 00:23:00.673

this is my experience.

00:23:01.293 --> 00:23:05.696

So I do get a lot of people telling me,

00:23:05.896 --> 00:23:06.156

you know,

00:23:06.196 --> 00:23:09.058

how sad it is to see where I am

00:23:09.098 --> 00:23:10.379

and how sad it is that I

00:23:10.419 --> 00:23:12.180

chose to be led astray and

00:23:12.220 --> 00:23:12.840

things like that.

00:23:14.001 --> 00:23:14.982

Those comments don't really

00:23:15.022 --> 00:23:18.804

bother me because they're not about me.

00:23:18.824 --> 00:23:19.664

They're about the person

00:23:19.685 --> 00:23:20.365

making the comment.

00:23:21.751 --> 00:23:23.031

The hard thing is when

00:23:23.071 --> 00:23:24.212

people leave the church,

00:23:24.492 --> 00:23:29.333

they become a mirror for people who stay.

00:23:29.353 --> 00:23:31.473

When someone sees a person

00:23:31.533 --> 00:23:32.274

leave the church,

00:23:32.574 --> 00:23:34.014

it forces them to examine

00:23:34.054 --> 00:23:35.694

their own shelf items and

00:23:35.714 --> 00:23:37.335

their own cognitive dissonance.

00:23:39.735 --> 00:23:41.996

And it makes us feel shame

00:23:43.696 --> 00:23:47.137

that if the person speaking is correct,

00:23:47.477 --> 00:23:48.698

it means that what I have

00:23:48.738 --> 00:23:50.618

believed for a long time is false.

00:23:52.110 --> 00:23:55.051

and it's it means

00:23:55.091 --> 00:23:55.932

confronting some really

00:23:55.972 --> 00:23:57.872

difficult truths so i

00:23:57.892 --> 00:24:00.413

appreciate anybody who's

00:24:00.453 --> 00:24:01.234

here whether you're

00:24:01.294 --> 00:24:04.975

faithful mormon or not um

00:24:05.075 --> 00:24:06.355

if you're here listening i

00:24:06.376 --> 00:24:07.536

appreciate you being here

00:24:08.476 --> 00:24:10.077

and if you hear something

00:24:10.117 --> 00:24:12.518

that offends you ask

00:24:12.558 --> 00:24:13.898

yourself why it offends you

00:24:14.479 --> 00:24:16.019

does it offend you because

00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:18.020

you think it's a lie or

00:24:18.060 --> 00:24:20.401

does it offend you because if it's true

00:24:21.777 --> 00:24:28.204

It means that threatens your worldview.

00:24:28.604 --> 00:24:29.165

It was really,

00:24:29.225 --> 00:24:32.428

really hard for me to admit

00:24:32.849 --> 00:24:35.211

that I had been duped and lied to.

00:24:39.775 --> 00:24:41.116

that was the hardest part of

00:24:41.176 --> 00:24:42.137

it for me because I

00:24:42.177 --> 00:24:43.658

considered myself to be an

00:24:43.718 --> 00:24:44.899

intelligent human being.

00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:47.881

And not only was I duped and lied to,

00:24:48.041 --> 00:24:50.343

but then I perpetuated it

00:24:50.643 --> 00:24:52.624

by teaching it to my children.

00:24:55.907 --> 00:24:56.988

And that was really hard for

00:24:57.008 --> 00:24:59.328

me to wrestle with as well.

00:24:59.328 --> 00:24:59.393

today.

00:24:59.413 --> 00:25:03.256

This is an interesting comment.

00:25:03.856 --> 00:25:04.757

At the time of the Bible,

00:25:04.797 --> 00:25:06.057

multiple wives was common.

00:25:06.238 --> 00:25:11.641

It wasn't common, but it was done.

00:25:13.765 --> 00:25:15.206

mostly in the bible they

00:25:15.266 --> 00:25:17.708

refer to it as concubines

00:25:18.809 --> 00:25:20.851

um and things like that so

00:25:20.991 --> 00:25:22.092

it's again it's a rabbit

00:25:22.112 --> 00:25:23.013

hole for another time i'm

00:25:23.053 --> 00:25:23.974

not prepared to have that

00:25:23.994 --> 00:25:25.495

discussion today but it's

00:25:25.595 --> 00:25:27.277

one that i commonly get and

00:25:27.437 --> 00:25:28.357

and it's one that's worth

00:25:28.397 --> 00:25:29.639

talking about so thank you

00:25:29.659 --> 00:25:31.640

for making that that comment

00:25:31.712 --> 00:25:34.154

So I want to go back to the

00:25:34.294 --> 00:25:36.776

josephsmithspolygamy.org.

00:25:36.936 --> 00:25:40.559

It's a very comprehensive site.

00:25:40.619 --> 00:25:43.201

It covers polygamy very well.

00:25:44.241 --> 00:25:45.102

There are some things I

00:25:45.162 --> 00:25:46.363

disagree with on the site.

00:25:48.305 --> 00:25:49.166

What I love is that they

00:25:49.206 --> 00:25:51.009

have biographies of all of

00:25:51.049 --> 00:25:52.170

Joseph's plural wives,

00:25:52.250 --> 00:25:53.452

and they very extensively

00:25:53.492 --> 00:25:55.094

cover the feelings of the wives,

00:25:55.134 --> 00:25:56.777

which is why I really like this.

00:25:58.179 --> 00:25:59.320

It's very comprehensive.

00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:00.762

So Fanny Alger was Joseph

00:26:00.782 --> 00:26:02.184

Smith's first plural wife.

00:26:03.149 --> 00:26:05.151

um and so benjamin f johnson

00:26:05.191 --> 00:26:06.132

a close friend of joseph

00:26:06.152 --> 00:26:07.373

smith beginning in the

00:26:07.413 --> 00:26:08.554

kirtland period recalled

00:26:08.595 --> 00:26:11.017

the circumstances in so

00:26:11.037 --> 00:26:12.078

they're clarifying that

00:26:12.118 --> 00:26:13.639

benjamin f johnson said

00:26:13.679 --> 00:26:17.023

this in regarding that time

00:26:17.203 --> 00:26:18.124

and this is what we call a

00:26:18.324 --> 00:26:21.707

late account meaning in he

00:26:21.747 --> 00:26:22.808

didn't immediately write it

00:26:22.848 --> 00:26:24.330

down this is him looking back on it

00:26:26.282 --> 00:26:27.844

So he says, now, as to your question,

00:26:27.884 --> 00:26:28.905

how early did the prophet

00:26:28.925 --> 00:26:30.226

Joseph practice polygamy?

00:26:30.706 --> 00:26:32.328

In eighteen thirty five at Kirtland,

00:26:32.488 --> 00:26:33.909

I learned from my sister's husband,

00:26:33.929 --> 00:26:34.790

Lyman R. Sherman,

00:26:34.930 --> 00:26:35.691

who was close to the

00:26:35.731 --> 00:26:36.692

prophet and received it

00:26:36.732 --> 00:26:38.353

from him that the ancient

00:26:38.433 --> 00:26:39.514

order of plural marriage

00:26:39.534 --> 00:26:41.216

was again to be practiced by the church.

00:26:41.676 --> 00:26:42.677

This at the time did not

00:26:42.757 --> 00:26:43.938

impress my mind deeply,

00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:46.701

although there lived then with his family,

00:26:46.741 --> 00:26:47.642

the prophet's family,

00:26:48.262 --> 00:26:49.904

a neighbor's daughter, Fanny Alger.

00:26:50.384 --> 00:26:52.006

so fanny was living in the

00:26:52.046 --> 00:26:53.708

home of the prophet and i

00:26:53.748 --> 00:26:56.691

believe she was helping emma keep house

00:26:58.142 --> 00:26:59.763

He says a very nice and

00:26:59.803 --> 00:27:02.043

comely young woman about my age,

00:27:02.103 --> 00:27:03.084

about my own age,

00:27:03.584 --> 00:27:05.244

toward whom not only myself,

00:27:05.284 --> 00:27:07.305

but everyone seemed partial

00:27:07.705 --> 00:27:09.786

for the amiability of her character.

00:27:09.926 --> 00:27:11.166

And it was whispered even

00:27:11.206 --> 00:27:12.847

then that Joseph loved her.

00:27:13.607 --> 00:27:15.008

The reason I think it's

00:27:15.048 --> 00:27:16.488

important to talk about

00:27:16.608 --> 00:27:19.009

this particular account is

00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:19.468

because

00:27:19.835 --> 00:27:21.115

If we frame it that way,

00:27:22.896 --> 00:27:25.737

And if we look at it from

00:27:25.777 --> 00:27:26.958

the perspective that Sandra

00:27:26.998 --> 00:27:28.098

Tanner just gave us,

00:27:28.858 --> 00:27:29.939

that he was a predator,

00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:31.980

it makes a lot of sense

00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:34.021

that someone who has

00:27:34.101 --> 00:27:35.621

narcissistic tendencies and

00:27:35.661 --> 00:27:37.642

who wants power and control

00:27:39.223 --> 00:27:41.504

would choose someone that

00:27:41.644 --> 00:27:45.945

everyone else wanted as his first wife.

00:27:46.866 --> 00:27:48.726

Because then that means if Joseph has her,

00:27:48.747 --> 00:27:49.607

then no one else can.

00:27:51.364 --> 00:27:53.525

Just my two cents on that

00:27:53.565 --> 00:27:55.007

particular topic.

00:27:59.471 --> 00:28:00.992

According to Mosiah Hancock,

00:28:01.032 --> 00:28:02.273

writing in eighteen ninety six,

00:28:02.313 --> 00:28:04.355

Joseph did not approach Fanny directly.

00:28:04.495 --> 00:28:06.357

Rather, he enlisted Levi Hancock,

00:28:06.777 --> 00:28:09.500

the brother in law of Fanny's father.

00:28:10.981 --> 00:28:11.582

So this would have been

00:28:11.622 --> 00:28:15.245

Fanny's uncle to serve as intermediary.

00:28:17.450 --> 00:28:19.250

Levi first approached Samuel Alger,

00:28:19.430 --> 00:28:20.191

Fanny's father.

00:28:20.291 --> 00:28:20.691

Samuel,

00:28:20.791 --> 00:28:22.371

the prophet Joseph loves your daughter,

00:28:22.391 --> 00:28:24.312

Fanny, and wishes her for a wife.

00:28:24.352 --> 00:28:25.012

What say you?

00:28:26.292 --> 00:28:26.932

Uncle Sam says,

00:28:26.972 --> 00:28:28.232

go and talk to the old woman,

00:28:28.412 --> 00:28:30.553

Levi's sister, Fanny's mother, about it.

00:28:30.573 --> 00:28:31.693

It will be as she says.

00:28:32.833 --> 00:28:34.374

Father goes to his sister and says,

00:28:34.434 --> 00:28:35.894

Clarice, brother Joseph,

00:28:35.914 --> 00:28:37.595

the prophet of the most high God,

00:28:37.655 --> 00:28:39.615

loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife.

00:28:39.635 --> 00:28:40.315

What say you?

00:28:40.975 --> 00:28:42.716

Said she, go and talk to Fanny.

00:28:42.896 --> 00:28:43.836

It'll be all right with me.

00:28:45.772 --> 00:28:46.833

So this is sort of a

00:28:46.873 --> 00:28:48.773

roundabout way for Joseph

00:28:48.793 --> 00:28:51.115

to get permission from Fanny's family.

00:29:17.595 --> 00:29:18.576

skipping on down a little it

00:29:18.596 --> 00:29:19.657

says things didn't go well

00:29:19.677 --> 00:29:21.818

for joseph and fanny in a

00:29:21.858 --> 00:29:23.079

letter from william

00:29:23.219 --> 00:29:24.500

mcclellan to joseph smith

00:29:24.741 --> 00:29:26.462

iii mcclellan recalls

00:29:26.502 --> 00:29:28.704

details of an conversation

00:29:28.724 --> 00:29:29.924

with emma smith where emma

00:29:29.985 --> 00:29:31.526

acknowledged that in the

00:29:31.566 --> 00:29:34.528

spring of she missed joseph

00:29:34.588 --> 00:29:35.829

and fanny alger meaning she

00:29:35.849 --> 00:29:36.910

didn't know where they were

00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:38.811

she went to the barn and

00:29:38.871 --> 00:29:40.352

saw him and fanny in the

00:29:40.372 --> 00:29:42.674

barn together alone which

00:29:42.734 --> 00:29:44.255

would have been very very

00:29:44.415 --> 00:29:45.857

unusual for this day

00:29:46.864 --> 00:29:47.905

She looked through a crack

00:29:48.005 --> 00:29:49.185

and saw the transaction.

00:29:49.866 --> 00:29:51.527

She told me this story, too,

00:29:51.707 --> 00:29:52.667

was verily true.

00:29:53.688 --> 00:29:55.729

What Emma witnessed is not specified.

00:29:56.169 --> 00:29:57.250

Whether it was the plural

00:29:57.270 --> 00:29:58.150

marriage ceremony,

00:29:58.270 --> 00:29:59.491

an exchange of affection,

00:29:59.631 --> 00:30:01.692

or even sexual relations,

00:30:01.772 --> 00:30:02.733

we are not told.

00:30:02.813 --> 00:30:03.413

Regardless,

00:30:03.953 --> 00:30:05.254

it is obvious Emma did not

00:30:05.294 --> 00:30:06.294

believe the ceremony was

00:30:06.335 --> 00:30:07.475

valid and concluded the

00:30:07.515 --> 00:30:08.836

relationship was adulterous.

00:30:10.729 --> 00:30:11.690

Oliver Cowdery,

00:30:11.850 --> 00:30:12.871

who Joseph summoned to

00:30:12.911 --> 00:30:15.132

diffuse the situation, sided with Emma,

00:30:15.312 --> 00:30:16.733

discounting the validity of

00:30:16.773 --> 00:30:17.974

the polygamous marriage and

00:30:18.014 --> 00:30:20.876

later referring to it as a, quote, dirty,

00:30:21.057 --> 00:30:22.798

nasty, filthy scrape.

00:30:24.619 --> 00:30:24.799

Now,

00:30:24.999 --> 00:30:27.901

if you go and you look up what the

00:30:27.942 --> 00:30:31.344

word scrape meant in that time, it was,

00:30:32.145 --> 00:30:34.066

quote, unquote, a low word.

00:30:35.067 --> 00:30:35.227

So,

00:30:36.204 --> 00:30:37.084

there are a lot of

00:30:37.324 --> 00:30:40.525

apologists who say well we

00:30:40.565 --> 00:30:42.785

don't have any proof that

00:30:43.365 --> 00:30:44.265

joseph did anything

00:30:44.305 --> 00:30:45.426

inappropriate with fanny

00:30:46.566 --> 00:30:49.206

and later oliver cowdrey

00:30:49.226 --> 00:30:51.887

was excommunicated so he

00:30:51.927 --> 00:30:53.247

wasn't faithful so we can't

00:30:53.287 --> 00:30:54.547

trust anything that he said

00:30:55.347 --> 00:30:56.748

well why do you think he

00:30:56.768 --> 00:30:59.548

was excommunicated one of

00:30:59.588 --> 00:31:00.848

the reasons listed for his

00:31:00.988 --> 00:31:02.049

excommunication was

00:31:02.109 --> 00:31:03.769

disloyalty to the prophet

00:31:05.937 --> 00:31:08.218

so it could be that oliver

00:31:08.378 --> 00:31:10.199

was talking about this

00:31:10.239 --> 00:31:12.060

affair with fanny alger and

00:31:12.100 --> 00:31:13.220

the prophet did not want

00:31:13.281 --> 00:31:14.661

him talking about it so he

00:31:14.801 --> 00:31:15.942

excommunicated him because

00:31:15.962 --> 00:31:17.743

in the mormon church s

00:31:17.783 --> 00:31:20.344

communication immediately

00:31:20.384 --> 00:31:21.704

means a loss of credibility

00:31:22.725 --> 00:31:24.666

and and even now people who

00:31:24.706 --> 00:31:27.107

leave the church have no

00:31:27.147 --> 00:31:28.588

credibility with people who

00:31:28.628 --> 00:31:31.149

are in the church because

00:31:33.351 --> 00:31:33.972

we've left.

00:31:34.032 --> 00:31:35.373

So we're not loyal anymore.

00:31:35.593 --> 00:31:36.433

We're not listening.

00:31:37.254 --> 00:31:39.536

And people will say, oh,

00:31:40.176 --> 00:31:42.998

if you have apostatized,

00:31:43.018 --> 00:31:44.439

meaning like you've left the church,

00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:44.880

right?

00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:46.061

You're speaking out against

00:31:46.101 --> 00:31:47.382

the church and its leaders,

00:31:48.002 --> 00:31:49.083

then you've lost the Holy

00:31:49.123 --> 00:31:50.844

Ghost and you've lost the

00:31:50.884 --> 00:31:53.126

ability to have truth

00:31:53.927 --> 00:31:55.047

spoken to you by God.

00:31:55.948 --> 00:31:58.410

So nothing you say counts.

00:31:58.610 --> 00:31:59.591

Nothing you say can be true.

00:31:59.764 --> 00:32:00.324

So anyway,

00:32:00.544 --> 00:32:05.365

I wanted to just get back to this idea.

00:32:11.387 --> 00:32:12.988

Oliver's vitriol may have

00:32:13.028 --> 00:32:14.970

been intensified due to his

00:32:15.010 --> 00:32:16.751

frustrations from recent

00:32:16.811 --> 00:32:17.952

leadership changes that

00:32:17.992 --> 00:32:20.034

diminished his overall importance.

00:32:20.754 --> 00:32:23.837

And I believe that his

00:32:23.877 --> 00:32:25.017

importance was diminished

00:32:25.058 --> 00:32:26.999

because he was threatening

00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:28.981

to expose the truth about

00:32:29.021 --> 00:32:29.881

Joseph's polygamy.

00:32:30.382 --> 00:32:33.964

So as a consequence of this, you know,

00:32:34.064 --> 00:32:35.866

Emma coming in and finding Joseph and

00:32:35.941 --> 00:32:37.222

Fanny, together.

00:32:38.362 --> 00:32:39.543

Emma immediately turned

00:32:39.603 --> 00:32:41.864

Fanny out of the house.

00:32:41.904 --> 00:32:42.504

Subsequently,

00:32:42.544 --> 00:32:43.585

both women were severely

00:32:43.625 --> 00:32:45.786

traumatized and Oliver Cowdery alienated.

00:32:45.946 --> 00:32:46.466

In addition,

00:32:46.567 --> 00:32:47.867

rumors of adultery quietly

00:32:47.907 --> 00:32:48.788

spread among the saints,

00:32:48.888 --> 00:32:49.628

although they were never

00:32:49.728 --> 00:32:51.509

loud enough to reach the local media.

00:32:51.989 --> 00:32:53.450

The first mention of the

00:32:53.470 --> 00:32:54.511

relationship in any known

00:32:54.551 --> 00:32:55.972

manuscript occurred in January of

00:33:05.518 --> 00:33:05.778

Anyway,

00:33:06.479 --> 00:33:08.020

so this was Joseph's first

00:33:08.780 --> 00:33:11.602

experience with having a plural wife.

00:33:12.843 --> 00:33:14.764

I want to go back to the

00:33:15.184 --> 00:33:16.645

timeline here for a second.

00:33:17.186 --> 00:33:19.507

So that was between eighteen thirty three,

00:33:19.527 --> 00:33:20.228

eighteen thirty five.

00:33:20.268 --> 00:33:21.829

We don't have the exact dates.

00:33:22.289 --> 00:33:23.810

And then summer of eighteen thirty five,

00:33:23.870 --> 00:33:24.811

the first edition of the

00:33:24.851 --> 00:33:26.472

Doctrine and Covenants is published.

00:33:26.492 --> 00:33:27.593

And for those of you who are

00:33:27.633 --> 00:33:29.294

not familiar with it,

00:33:30.014 --> 00:33:31.275

the Doctrine and Covenants

00:33:31.335 --> 00:33:33.056

is a book of scripture that

00:33:33.116 --> 00:33:35.158

was published as.

00:33:36.498 --> 00:33:40.019

a collection of Joseph

00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:41.179

Smith's revelations.

00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.900

And what's interesting to me

00:33:44.080 --> 00:33:46.601

looking at it now is that,

00:33:47.661 --> 00:33:48.821

especially in the beginning

00:33:48.861 --> 00:33:49.961

of the Doctrine and Covenants,

00:33:50.081 --> 00:33:53.262

it appears that Joseph is

00:33:54.703 --> 00:33:56.483

using this connection with

00:33:56.563 --> 00:33:59.424

God to pray to God about

00:33:59.464 --> 00:34:00.864

very specific things and

00:34:00.884 --> 00:34:01.964

then get very specific

00:34:02.084 --> 00:34:03.625

answers about what other

00:34:03.645 --> 00:34:04.965

people are supposed to be doing.

00:34:06.124 --> 00:34:07.925

And from time to time,

00:34:07.985 --> 00:34:08.786

there are things that

00:34:08.846 --> 00:34:10.087

Joseph is supposed to be doing,

00:34:10.127 --> 00:34:11.228

but there also are

00:34:11.268 --> 00:34:12.449

instructions to his wife

00:34:12.529 --> 00:34:13.450

and to the other people

00:34:13.470 --> 00:34:14.631

that Joseph has appointed

00:34:14.671 --> 00:34:15.791

as leaders of the church.

00:34:16.772 --> 00:34:18.533

So it would be very easy for

00:34:18.594 --> 00:34:20.435

someone who is just

00:34:20.535 --> 00:34:23.637

manipulating people to say, okay,

00:34:23.737 --> 00:34:24.818

I'm going to take this to God.

00:34:24.838 --> 00:34:26.099

I'm going to pray to God about it.

00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:32.084

And then God is going to tell me something,

00:34:32.124 --> 00:34:33.044

but it's obviously going to

00:34:33.064 --> 00:34:34.886

be whatever I want that thing to be.

00:34:35.447 --> 00:34:36.789

This is why I think the idea

00:34:37.009 --> 00:34:38.751

of I speak directly to God

00:34:38.851 --> 00:34:40.834

is really dangerous because

00:34:41.194 --> 00:34:43.116

people who are unscrupulous

00:34:43.557 --> 00:34:45.299

can very easily use that to

00:34:45.339 --> 00:34:46.240

manipulate people.

00:34:46.461 --> 00:34:48.403

This is also called spiritual abuse.

00:34:49.164 --> 00:34:50.966

I'm telling you that God told me,

00:34:52.136 --> 00:34:53.376

that you're supposed to do this thing.

00:34:53.396 --> 00:34:54.397

And if you don't do it,

00:34:54.417 --> 00:34:56.798

there are gonna be consequences for you.

00:34:57.418 --> 00:34:59.338

Not only right now in the

00:34:59.378 --> 00:35:00.519

here and now of you're not

00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:01.739

gonna get to retain your

00:35:01.759 --> 00:35:02.659

leadership position,

00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:05.841

but also in the future, in the afterlife,

00:35:06.301 --> 00:35:08.101

eternal consequences for your soul.

00:35:08.181 --> 00:35:09.802

And if you sincerely believe

00:35:10.402 --> 00:35:12.163

that this person is a prophet of God,

00:35:12.203 --> 00:35:13.364

then you do sincerely

00:35:13.404 --> 00:35:14.565

believe that your eternal

00:35:14.605 --> 00:35:15.866

salvation is in danger if

00:35:15.886 --> 00:35:16.967

you don't do what they say,

00:35:17.027 --> 00:35:17.967

which is why I have a

00:35:18.027 --> 00:35:19.068

problem with Joseph

00:35:19.649 --> 00:35:21.650

approaching young women and telling them,

00:35:21.730 --> 00:35:22.751

God told me that you're

00:35:22.771 --> 00:35:23.792

supposed to be my wife.

00:35:28.555 --> 00:35:29.416

I really just want to put

00:35:29.456 --> 00:35:30.576

that out there for people

00:35:30.596 --> 00:35:32.658

to understand that that's

00:35:33.238 --> 00:35:34.939

what Joseph did.

00:35:34.979 --> 00:35:39.863

So going back to the timeline,

00:35:42.974 --> 00:35:44.336

So the first edition of the

00:35:44.356 --> 00:35:45.698

Doctrine and Covenants was published.

00:35:45.718 --> 00:35:47.982

This includes the section one thirty two,

00:35:48.142 --> 00:35:50.526

which is the section that

00:35:50.586 --> 00:35:51.928

talks about plural marriage.

00:35:53.266 --> 00:35:54.868

then in eighteen thirty six

00:35:55.208 --> 00:35:56.910

elijah the prophet from the

00:35:56.950 --> 00:35:57.951

bible appears in the

00:35:57.991 --> 00:35:59.553

kirtland temple and bestows

00:35:59.573 --> 00:36:01.695

sealing keys upon joseph

00:36:01.715 --> 00:36:02.856

smith and and oliver

00:36:02.876 --> 00:36:05.419

cowdrey which going back to

00:36:05.479 --> 00:36:06.940

a comment that someone made

00:36:07.541 --> 00:36:08.762

i wonder if they were

00:36:08.802 --> 00:36:10.064

dabbling in psychedelics

00:36:10.104 --> 00:36:11.045

because that's what i

00:36:11.085 --> 00:36:11.966

always think like when

00:36:11.986 --> 00:36:13.107

there was a second person

00:36:13.167 --> 00:36:14.348

involved in some of these

00:36:14.368 --> 00:36:15.489

visions and things like that

00:36:16.090 --> 00:36:17.630

It makes me wonder how

00:36:17.690 --> 00:36:19.711

Joseph accomplished getting

00:36:19.751 --> 00:36:20.911

someone else on board with that.

00:36:21.011 --> 00:36:22.191

Although in some instances,

00:36:22.251 --> 00:36:24.092

we know that the other

00:36:24.252 --> 00:36:25.392

quote unquote witness was

00:36:25.512 --> 00:36:26.872

either not in the same room

00:36:26.932 --> 00:36:27.592

or not in the same

00:36:27.612 --> 00:36:30.633

proximity or that they saw, for example,

00:36:30.673 --> 00:36:31.493

the golden plates

00:36:31.633 --> 00:36:32.594

underneath a sheet and

00:36:32.634 --> 00:36:34.474

didn't actually see the

00:36:34.514 --> 00:36:35.354

plates themselves.

00:36:35.774 --> 00:36:36.794

So there's a lot of

00:36:37.655 --> 00:36:38.975

strangeness around

00:36:39.095 --> 00:36:41.876

witnesses that saw and

00:36:41.936 --> 00:36:43.616

experienced the same things as Joseph.

00:36:44.515 --> 00:36:46.476

um in eighteen forty joseph

00:36:46.496 --> 00:36:47.976

started teaching others

00:36:48.016 --> 00:36:49.016

about plural marriage in

00:36:49.056 --> 00:36:50.977

private and made vague

00:36:51.037 --> 00:36:52.397

public hints at it

00:36:52.497 --> 00:36:53.558

eventually becoming a

00:36:53.598 --> 00:36:55.138

practice so i see this as

00:36:55.178 --> 00:36:57.379

him really laying down the

00:36:57.419 --> 00:36:58.219

the groundwork and the

00:36:58.299 --> 00:36:59.480

foundation for this over

00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:00.880

the course of several years

00:37:01.740 --> 00:37:03.821

and just so that the whole

00:37:04.241 --> 00:37:05.821

community would be on board

00:37:05.841 --> 00:37:07.942

with it um i also just want

00:37:07.962 --> 00:37:09.142

to mention this site is

00:37:09.182 --> 00:37:12.203

called warmandr.org i don't

00:37:12.243 --> 00:37:13.624

have time to go into

00:37:15.060 --> 00:37:16.100

everything about this site

00:37:16.140 --> 00:37:17.541

but i i believe it to be a

00:37:17.581 --> 00:37:19.822

reliable resource if anyone

00:37:19.862 --> 00:37:21.203

knows differently i would

00:37:21.443 --> 00:37:22.523

i'd love to be informed of

00:37:22.543 --> 00:37:24.224

that um but i wanted to

00:37:24.264 --> 00:37:25.564

just make sure that i share

00:37:25.664 --> 00:37:26.865

the sources that i'm using

00:37:26.905 --> 00:37:29.266

here so in eighteen forty

00:37:29.386 --> 00:37:30.606

one then joseph smith is

00:37:30.666 --> 00:37:33.888

sealed to louisa beeman um

00:37:33.968 --> 00:37:36.029

this is the first wife in nauvoo

00:37:38.381 --> 00:37:40.902

And then later, a couple months later,

00:37:40.962 --> 00:37:41.962

he starts introducing

00:37:42.002 --> 00:37:43.142

plural marriage to the

00:37:43.182 --> 00:37:44.463

members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

00:37:44.483 --> 00:37:45.563

This is the greater

00:37:45.623 --> 00:37:46.603

leadership of the church,

00:37:46.703 --> 00:37:49.504

including Brigham Young, John Taylor,

00:37:49.864 --> 00:37:50.964

and Heber C. Kimball.

00:37:51.444 --> 00:37:52.184

Brigham Young and John

00:37:52.224 --> 00:37:53.405

Taylor would later become

00:37:53.485 --> 00:37:54.605

presidents of the church.

00:37:56.926 --> 00:37:58.346

And then in eighteen forty one,

00:37:58.506 --> 00:38:00.927

Joseph is sealed to Zina Huntington,

00:38:01.267 --> 00:38:02.607

the first of about a dozen

00:38:02.647 --> 00:38:03.887

women who had legal

00:38:03.927 --> 00:38:05.468

husbands at the time of

00:38:05.488 --> 00:38:07.068

their sealing to Joseph.

00:38:09.096 --> 00:38:10.797

So just so that you know,

00:38:11.338 --> 00:38:13.879

Joseph was sealed to women

00:38:13.919 --> 00:38:15.080

who are already married.

00:38:15.621 --> 00:38:21.245

Joseph was sealed to other young women.

00:38:21.505 --> 00:38:23.166

He was sealed to old women.

00:38:23.246 --> 00:38:24.107

He was, you know,

00:38:24.147 --> 00:38:26.188

he had over thirty wives by

00:38:26.208 --> 00:38:28.170

the time that we get through with it.

00:38:28.182 --> 00:38:29.505

I think it's really

00:38:29.865 --> 00:38:32.066

interesting to go to Wikipedia,

00:38:32.106 --> 00:38:32.907

although I know it's not

00:38:33.007 --> 00:38:35.748

always the most reliable source.

00:38:37.970 --> 00:38:39.791

They do have an interesting

00:38:40.071 --> 00:38:41.572

layout of Joseph Smith's

00:38:41.652 --> 00:38:43.213

wives and their ages.

00:38:44.246 --> 00:38:45.806

And it's pretty comprehensive,

00:38:45.866 --> 00:38:47.407

so I want to show it to you.

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:49.331

So they have this.

00:38:49.631 --> 00:38:50.792

They have a chart here on

00:38:50.812 --> 00:38:52.652

this site and let me share it with you.

00:38:54.217 --> 00:38:55.078

that I think is really

00:38:55.118 --> 00:38:56.419

interesting to look at

00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:01.562

because I'm a visual person.

00:39:01.622 --> 00:39:03.043

And so this really puts it

00:39:03.143 --> 00:39:04.304

into perspective for me.

00:39:04.725 --> 00:39:05.145

By the way,

00:39:05.365 --> 00:39:07.066

I do give to Wikipedia because

00:39:07.126 --> 00:39:08.247

I do use them from time to

00:39:08.307 --> 00:39:08.827

time for things.

00:39:08.847 --> 00:39:10.188

But I always try to check

00:39:10.609 --> 00:39:12.670

what's on Wikipedia with another source.

00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:14.251

And I look at the footnotes

00:39:14.291 --> 00:39:15.772

very carefully when I'm

00:39:15.792 --> 00:39:17.334

doing this kind of digging.

00:39:18.474 --> 00:39:19.795

So this chart,

00:39:19.812 --> 00:39:22.464

this tells you women

00:39:22.544 --> 00:39:24.085

who were also married to

00:39:24.125 --> 00:39:28.226

another man are in a red square or red.

00:39:28.286 --> 00:39:29.946

They're designated with the color red.

00:39:31.707 --> 00:39:33.527

Blue means they were previously married.

00:39:33.647 --> 00:39:35.548

Green means they were single at the time.

00:39:37.209 --> 00:39:38.289

A circle means the marriage

00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:39.789

date is known and a diamond

00:39:39.809 --> 00:39:41.770

means the marriage date is estimated.

00:39:44.501 --> 00:39:46.082

Um, on the right side over here,

00:39:46.162 --> 00:39:47.383

it shows the age gap

00:39:47.443 --> 00:39:49.385

between Joseph and the

00:39:49.425 --> 00:39:50.686

woman that he was marrying.

00:39:52.587 --> 00:39:54.328

And then the age of the

00:39:54.348 --> 00:39:57.371

women at the time of marrying Joseph.

00:39:58.071 --> 00:39:59.973

So the oldest woman was

00:40:00.073 --> 00:40:02.034

around sixty and the

00:40:02.074 --> 00:40:04.956

youngest was fourteen.

00:40:06.778 --> 00:40:08.559

At the time that he married

00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:10.420

this fourteen-year-old girl,

00:40:10.941 --> 00:40:12.402

he was thirty-seven years old.

00:40:15.210 --> 00:40:15.870

And we're going to talk

00:40:15.890 --> 00:40:17.131

about her in just a second.

00:40:18.671 --> 00:40:20.352

So this to me really puts a

00:40:20.392 --> 00:40:22.013

visual perspective on it.

00:40:24.054 --> 00:40:25.754

The fact that he had so many

00:40:25.794 --> 00:40:26.955

women that were already

00:40:26.995 --> 00:40:27.895

married to other men.

00:40:28.055 --> 00:40:29.576

And I believe two of them

00:40:29.716 --> 00:40:30.736

who were pregnant at the

00:40:30.776 --> 00:40:33.866

time that he married them.

00:40:33.866 --> 00:40:35.750

so zina

00:40:35.770 --> 00:40:37.391

huntington is the first of

00:40:37.431 --> 00:40:39.091

a dozen women who had legal

00:40:39.111 --> 00:40:39.872

husbands at the time of

00:40:39.892 --> 00:40:40.752

their ceiling that was in then

00:40:46.372 --> 00:40:47.694

Joseph receives a revelation

00:40:47.734 --> 00:40:49.215

from Miranda Nancy Hyde

00:40:49.535 --> 00:40:51.277

that may contain veiled

00:40:51.337 --> 00:40:52.418

instruction for her to

00:40:52.478 --> 00:40:53.539

accept plural marriage.

00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:53.779

Guys,

00:40:54.200 --> 00:40:56.482

go in here and look through all these

00:40:56.502 --> 00:40:56.902

footnotes.

00:40:57.062 --> 00:40:58.563

It is really fascinating.

00:40:59.682 --> 00:41:00.963

dig into it it said the

00:41:01.003 --> 00:41:02.423

revelation said this let my

00:41:02.463 --> 00:41:03.764

handmaid nancy miranda hide

00:41:03.824 --> 00:41:04.844

hearken to the counsel of

00:41:04.884 --> 00:41:06.605

my servant joseph in all

00:41:06.685 --> 00:41:08.825

things whatsoever he shall

00:41:08.865 --> 00:41:10.866

teach unto her and it shall

00:41:10.886 --> 00:41:12.287

be a blessing upon her and

00:41:12.327 --> 00:41:13.967

upon her children after her

00:41:14.528 --> 00:41:15.728

mirinda recalled that this

00:41:15.908 --> 00:41:17.369

revelation was given to her

00:41:17.429 --> 00:41:19.369

specifically in the context

00:41:19.409 --> 00:41:20.450

of joseph smith teaching

00:41:20.510 --> 00:41:23.011

her about plural marriage late in

00:41:27.801 --> 00:41:28.902

Joseph Smith purportedly

00:41:28.942 --> 00:41:29.862

writes a letter later

00:41:29.902 --> 00:41:30.583

referred to as the

00:41:30.623 --> 00:41:32.424

happiness letter to Nancy Rigdon,

00:41:32.944 --> 00:41:34.205

which reads as an argument

00:41:34.225 --> 00:41:36.246

for justifying plural marriage.

00:41:36.846 --> 00:41:37.086

Now,

00:41:37.667 --> 00:41:44.111

I want to point out that church

00:41:44.171 --> 00:41:46.352

leadership has quoted this

00:41:46.852 --> 00:41:47.693

happiness letter

00:41:48.825 --> 00:41:50.525

to basically say that the

00:41:51.046 --> 00:41:51.986

whole design of our

00:41:52.146 --> 00:41:53.606

existence is happiness.

00:41:54.166 --> 00:41:55.327

They quoted this letter for

00:41:55.367 --> 00:41:57.627

a long time while they were

00:41:57.667 --> 00:41:59.188

still denying that Joseph

00:41:59.208 --> 00:42:01.048

had practiced this type of polygamy,

00:42:01.388 --> 00:42:04.149

especially during the Nauvoo period.

00:42:04.189 --> 00:42:05.250

But let's go back and look

00:42:05.550 --> 00:42:07.670

at what the letter says,

00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:08.730

or at least part of it anyway.

00:42:12.858 --> 00:42:14.238

the the text of this letter

00:42:14.278 --> 00:42:15.779

first appeared in the

00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:17.779

sangamo journal as per as

00:42:17.799 --> 00:42:18.640

purported copy of the

00:42:18.680 --> 00:42:20.120

original forwarded by john

00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:21.420

c bennett who was joseph

00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:23.341

smith's right hand man for

00:42:23.361 --> 00:42:26.102

a very long time until he

00:42:26.202 --> 00:42:27.742

crossed joseph and then he

00:42:27.782 --> 00:42:29.063

got excommunicated are you

00:42:29.103 --> 00:42:29.943

seeing a pattern

00:42:31.743 --> 00:42:33.785

When anybody disagrees with Joseph Smith,

00:42:33.805 --> 00:42:34.867

they get excommunicated.

00:42:35.587 --> 00:42:36.428

It essentially says that

00:42:36.468 --> 00:42:37.850

whatever God commands is right,

00:42:37.910 --> 00:42:38.911

regardless of whether it

00:42:38.951 --> 00:42:40.633

appears logical or right to

00:42:40.653 --> 00:42:42.375

those who receive the commandments.

00:42:42.797 --> 00:42:43.176

hi there

00:42:43.256 --> 00:42:44.696

letter daily digest good to

00:42:44.736 --> 00:42:46.637

see you as well um thank

00:42:46.677 --> 00:42:48.878

you so much i really want

00:42:48.898 --> 00:42:49.938

to go watch that episode

00:42:49.958 --> 00:42:51.118

that you have with peter i

00:42:51.158 --> 00:42:52.279

enjoyed his commentary

00:42:52.319 --> 00:42:53.079

during nemo's

00:42:54.219 --> 00:42:55.700

excommunication episodes and

00:42:55.780 --> 00:42:57.040

i love nemo i think he's

00:42:57.060 --> 00:42:59.422

amazing um i love it okay

00:42:59.762 --> 00:43:01.303

so let's go back to the

00:43:01.363 --> 00:43:03.944

happiness letter some scholars

00:43:05.576 --> 00:43:06.836

question the authenticity of

00:43:06.856 --> 00:43:07.716

the letter because of the

00:43:07.776 --> 00:43:08.877

uncertain provenance of

00:43:08.917 --> 00:43:10.037

Bennett's reproduced

00:43:10.097 --> 00:43:11.037

version of the letter,

00:43:11.217 --> 00:43:12.037

as well as Bennett's

00:43:12.117 --> 00:43:13.417

unreliable allegations on

00:43:13.537 --> 00:43:15.518

other matters related to Joseph Smith.

00:43:16.018 --> 00:43:17.378

If the letter is authentic,

00:43:17.458 --> 00:43:18.318

then it could provide

00:43:18.378 --> 00:43:19.398

insight into Joseph's

00:43:19.438 --> 00:43:20.479

rationale for the moral

00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:21.679

basis of plural marriage,

00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:22.819

although plural marriage is

00:43:22.879 --> 00:43:26.580

never explicitly mentioned in the text.

00:43:27.282 --> 00:43:29.061

The actual happiness letter,

00:43:29.543 --> 00:43:30.404

Okay, here it is.

00:43:30.624 --> 00:43:32.085

Happiness is the object and

00:43:32.125 --> 00:43:34.587

design of our existence and

00:43:34.627 --> 00:43:36.068

will be the end thereof if

00:43:36.108 --> 00:43:38.449

we pursue the path that leads to it.

00:43:39.230 --> 00:43:41.272

And this path is virtue, uprightness,

00:43:41.292 --> 00:43:42.412

faithfulness, holiness,

00:43:42.452 --> 00:43:44.494

and keeping all the commandments of God.

00:43:45.074 --> 00:43:46.956

so that's the part that the

00:43:46.996 --> 00:43:47.957

church leaders like to

00:43:47.997 --> 00:43:50.759

quote all the time b.h

00:43:50.799 --> 00:43:52.061

roberts as editor of

00:43:52.121 --> 00:43:52.962

history of the church

00:43:53.042 --> 00:43:54.703

included the letter in the

00:43:54.803 --> 00:43:56.645

in the compilation with the

00:43:56.665 --> 00:43:57.866

following note it is not

00:43:57.906 --> 00:43:59.428

positively known what it

00:43:59.488 --> 00:44:00.389

what occasioned the writing

00:44:00.429 --> 00:44:01.930

of this essay but when it

00:44:01.970 --> 00:44:02.991

is born in mind that at

00:44:03.031 --> 00:44:04.332

this time the new law of

00:44:04.392 --> 00:44:05.253

marriage for the church

00:44:05.293 --> 00:44:06.314

marriage for eternity

00:44:06.414 --> 00:44:07.655

including plurality of

00:44:07.695 --> 00:44:09.217

wives under some circumstances

00:44:09.637 --> 00:44:11.098

was being introduced by the prophet,

00:44:11.158 --> 00:44:12.958

it's very likely that the

00:44:13.038 --> 00:44:14.159

article was written with a

00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:16.220

view of applying the principles here,

00:44:16.980 --> 00:44:18.221

expounded to the conditions

00:44:18.281 --> 00:44:20.201

created by introducing said

00:44:20.762 --> 00:44:22.104

marriage system.

00:44:22.104 --> 00:44:24.497

I would encourage you to look up,

00:44:24.517 --> 00:44:25.877

and I'll put in the show notes later,

00:44:26.078 --> 00:44:27.198

and read the happiness

00:44:27.218 --> 00:44:29.599

letter in its entirety, because

00:44:30.579 --> 00:44:32.622

I like to think of it in the

00:44:32.682 --> 00:44:34.744

context that the person

00:44:34.804 --> 00:44:36.886

receiving it would have received it.

00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:37.921

I think it's important

00:44:38.121 --> 00:44:39.442

always for us to consider,

00:44:39.462 --> 00:44:40.403

and that's the whole reason

00:44:40.483 --> 00:44:42.746

I started this perspective,

00:44:43.467 --> 00:44:46.190

is because I wanted to hear

00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:48.313

it from the perspective of the women

00:44:49.464 --> 00:44:51.766

Did they feel like they were preyed upon?

00:44:52.426 --> 00:44:54.028

And what were the