Losing Faith, Finding Freedom: My Journey Beyond Mormonism

WEBVTT

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and that they've covered it

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up this entire time.

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All of that stuff just has

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really disturbed me over

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the last couple of days.

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And I've kind of been in this rabbit hole.

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I would really like to have

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your opinion because I am,

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I'm really having a hard time with this.

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And I'm really upset about

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just the entire dynamic of

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Like it feels like the

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church leaders have been

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lying to us all along and

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that they've covered it up

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this entire time.

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All of that stuff just has

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really disturbed me over

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the last couple of days.

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And I've kind of been in this rabbit hole.

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I would really like to have

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your opinion because I am

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I'm really having a hard time with it.

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Hello, beautiful humans.

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Welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

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I'm your host, Megan Conner.

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And what you just saw was

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almost the exact moment

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that I lost my faith in the

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Mormon Church.

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In the summer of twenty twenty two,

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my sister and I went on a

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girls trip to visit one of

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my cousins and her family.

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The three of us had been

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exchanging video messages

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in a group for a couple of

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years at this point.

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All three of us were raised

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as members of the LDS church,

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and we also have very

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similar family dynamics.

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So we would frequently

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discuss the ways in which we

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were struggling with family

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and church issues and help

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each other to come up with

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solutions and just

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generally support each other.

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We had been in agreement for

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a long time about the

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problems with the culture

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of the church and how

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difficult it's been for

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each of us for different

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reasons at different times.

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At the point the three of us

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met for the trip,

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I had been struggling with

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my life as a Mormon for several years.

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It was hard for me to

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resolve the cognitive

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dissonance that I felt

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between the policies of the

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church conflicting with

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what I believed the

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teachings of Jesus Christ were.

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I was also struggling with

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feeling isolated and

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ostracized during my entire

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time in the church,

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but especially since my

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divorce in twenty seventeen.

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One night during dinner,

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we were all discussing some

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of the difficulties we had

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with the church over the years,

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and I came to an important conclusion.

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I said,

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I don't know how to make sense of

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all these conflicting feelings I'm having,

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and I don't know what to do about it.

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All I know is that I want my

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life to be acceptable to God.

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And right now, as I'm living,

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I believe it is.

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I made that statement knowing that my life,

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one in which I questioned

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the teachings of the so-called prophets,

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was not acceptable to the church.

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Five months later,

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I was in the process of

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revising and editing my first book,

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I Walked Through Fire to Get Here,

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which is the story of my

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journey healing from trauma.

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In the book is a chapter

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about being raised in the LDS church.

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Informed by my healing from

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other abusive systems,

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my aim in writing the

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chapter was to call out the

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aspects of the church

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culture which I found to be

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abusive and oppressive.

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I asked my partner Samuel to

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read the chapter as someone

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who's never been Mormon.

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I wanted to make sure that I

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was telling the full story

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that would help lend

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solidarity to others who

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had experienced harm in the church.

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His reply was that, no,

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I had been too easy on the

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church and I had held back from the truth,

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which would hold leaders

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accountable for what

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Mormonism has always been.

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Right maybe two months before this,

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I had gone to a business

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conference on investing and

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we were talking about

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different kinds of

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investments and how to tell

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if an investment is right

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for you or profitable or whatever.

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And we were in this

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roundtable discussion and

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we had been given a

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prospectus by somebody who

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wanted our money.

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And our job was to go

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through the prospectus and

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determine if this was a

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good investment or not and why.

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And when it came to my turn

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to talk about this investment prospectus,

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I gave my reasons for why

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or why not I thought it was good.

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And then he said,

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if you had to give your

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money right now today, would you do it?

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And I said, no.

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And he said, why not?

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And I said,

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because I would never invest in

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something where the only

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information I had about it

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came to me from the source

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of the person who's asking

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me for the money.

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And this little distant bell

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rang in my head.

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Yeah.

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I was like,

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I have only ever read what the

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church writes about the church.

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I have only ever seen what

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the church puts out about the church.

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I've consumed all the propaganda.

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I kept the council to read

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only the best books.

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All of my time was consumed

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with the scriptures and the

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conference talks and everything else.

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And I had never once read

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anything negative about the church.

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Even when the CES letter came out,

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I was like, I don't need to read it.

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So I finally allowed myself

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to do research that was not

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put out officially by the church.

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When I started my research,

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I assumed I would be

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confronting some of the

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rumors I had heard since I was a child,

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which were labeled as anti-Mormon lies.

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I was shocked to discover

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that what were classified

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as lies in my childhood

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were now being published on

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the church's own website at

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LDS.org as truthful,

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apologetic claims now known

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as the gospel topic essays.

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was deeply disturbed by what

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i read but i kept digging i

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was determined to prove for

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myself what i was beginning

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to suspect i had been

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deceived used lied to and

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betrayed it was in this

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state of alarm that i

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recorded the video message

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i have a little bit of a

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heavy topic this morning so um if you

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are not in the right frame

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of mind for heavy stuff,

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feel free to not listen to

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this until later.

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I have been, as you know,

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getting my book ready for

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publishing and looking for an agent.

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And I started writing this

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book like back in twenty

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seventeen ish is when I

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first started journaling

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during my therapy stuff.

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And a lot of that journaling

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made it into the book.

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So that's kind of why I put

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that timeframe on it.

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But I didn't really start

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trying to turn it into a

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book until twenty nineteen.

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So there are a lot of

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sections of the book that I

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wrote a long time ago and

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then either revised or

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edited them and just left

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them alone and haven't

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looked at them since then.

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And one of those one of the

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chapters that I did that with was

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the chapter on the church

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and my relationship with

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the church growing up and

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where I was at that time with my faith,

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which basically was, you know,

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it was right after my

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divorce and I was really

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unhappy with the culture

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and always had been like

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for my entire life,

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but especially after I got

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divorced and I received no

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help from my ward and, you know, granted,

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the ward sucks.

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and met with my bishop and

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told him exactly what I

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needed and exactly the kind

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of help I needed.

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I needed faithful home

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teachers that were gonna be

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there every single month.

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And I needed the young men's

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and the young women's

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groups to really rally

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around my children and help them.

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And this was actually,

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the meeting where he laughed at me.

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I told him that I was really

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struggling and I said,

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I come to church every

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Sunday and I fulfill my

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callings and I bring my

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kids with me and I pay my

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tithing and I go to the

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temple and I do all of these things.

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And so I think people assume

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that I'm just like out

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there swimming along doing great,

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but I'm actually drowning.

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And he sort of like reclined

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back in his chair and chuckled and said,

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well,

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what do you expect us to do for you?

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And I was really taken aback

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by that because

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You know, first of all,

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your bishop is supposed to

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like be loving and kind about things.

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And I just,

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in my interactions with him

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throughout the entire

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divorce process and everything,

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I just had to come to this

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realization that he's just

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a software designer and he

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doesn't really know how to

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handle mental health issues

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or anything like that.

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And he's not compassionate.

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But it was it was really

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like triggering for me for

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him to react that way.

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And the way the discussion

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essentially went was like,

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you made this choice to get divorced,

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you know,

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so it's like up to you to figure it out.

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And I told him, like, look,

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I don't have any family.

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I don't speak with my parents.

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My sister's in Utah.

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you know,

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I just don't have any family

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around and it's a really

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hard time for all of us.

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We're having a hard time

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navigating everything.

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And he sort of like shamed

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me for not talking to my parents and,

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you know, basically said like,

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you have to look to your

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family first for help and all this stuff.

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And I said, I did.

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I told my parents I was

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getting divorced and they

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sent me a one line email back saying,

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you know,

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please let us know if we can help,

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which is like the Mormon equivalent of,

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That sucks, and I'm too busy.

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So anyway,

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I didn't really mean to get all

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into the weeds with this,

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but I guess that's what's happening.

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So I just kind of need to

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get some things out that I

00:09:30.243 --> 00:09:31.224

haven't really talked about.

00:09:31.264 --> 00:09:31.845

So anyway,

00:09:32.705 --> 00:09:34.267

after that meeting with my bishop,

00:09:34.827 --> 00:09:36.488

I still didn't get any home teachers.

00:09:36.568 --> 00:09:37.349

The young men and young

00:09:37.369 --> 00:09:38.590

women's presidencies really

00:09:38.610 --> 00:09:39.711

did step up to help.

00:09:41.567 --> 00:09:42.568

anyway i wrote a letter to

00:09:42.608 --> 00:09:43.909

my state president and i

00:09:43.969 --> 00:09:45.310

said you know if my husband

00:09:45.350 --> 00:09:46.470

had died instead of

00:09:46.510 --> 00:09:49.252

divorcing me um you know i

00:09:49.272 --> 00:09:50.373

would be encumbered with

00:09:50.393 --> 00:09:51.434

all kinds of help and

00:09:53.054 --> 00:09:54.475

And it's just not that way.

00:09:54.535 --> 00:09:55.876

And I just told him, you know,

00:09:55.896 --> 00:09:56.957

we're really struggling and

00:09:56.997 --> 00:09:57.878

I've asked the bishop for

00:09:57.918 --> 00:09:58.838

help and he was not

00:09:58.858 --> 00:10:00.119

compassionate and I still

00:10:00.139 --> 00:10:01.280

haven't had any teachers.

00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:04.302

And he did write me back and

00:10:04.843 --> 00:10:07.885

give me some sympathy for

00:10:07.905 --> 00:10:09.546

my situation and said that

00:10:09.606 --> 00:10:10.907

he would do his very best

00:10:10.947 --> 00:10:13.049

to make sure that, you know,

00:10:13.289 --> 00:10:15.170

things got taken care of at

00:10:15.210 --> 00:10:15.771

the board level.

00:10:16.371 --> 00:10:17.572

and then literally nothing

00:10:17.612 --> 00:10:18.953

happened i like i did not

00:10:19.013 --> 00:10:20.675

have anybody come and visit

00:10:20.715 --> 00:10:22.677

me in my home at all not

00:10:22.917 --> 00:10:27.361

one single time for like at

00:10:27.401 --> 00:10:29.343

least four years it wasn't

00:10:29.423 --> 00:10:31.464

until well at christmas

00:10:31.505 --> 00:10:33.086

time in one of the

00:10:33.106 --> 00:10:34.467

bishopric members came by

00:10:34.527 --> 00:10:35.628

and dropped off an envelope

00:10:35.668 --> 00:10:37.190

of gift cards for us for christmas

00:10:39.375 --> 00:10:42.216

And the same thing in twenty nineteen.

00:10:42.896 --> 00:10:44.837

And it wasn't until like the

00:10:44.877 --> 00:10:46.198

spring of twenty nineteen

00:10:46.338 --> 00:10:48.219

that a home teacher contacted me.

00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:49.400

So anyway,

00:10:49.640 --> 00:10:51.821

I just felt I was very bereft by my ward.

00:10:51.881 --> 00:10:52.901

I was like really upset

00:10:52.921 --> 00:10:53.922

because and I think it was

00:10:53.962 --> 00:10:54.782

mostly because like

00:10:54.802 --> 00:10:56.143

divorced people get

00:10:56.183 --> 00:10:57.464

marginalized even more than

00:10:57.524 --> 00:10:58.844

part member families do.

00:10:59.084 --> 00:11:01.445

And nobody like nobody from my ward.

00:11:01.465 --> 00:11:02.686

There was one person from my

00:11:02.746 --> 00:11:04.067

ward who reached out to like

00:11:05.150 --> 00:11:06.751

say if you need help i'm

00:11:06.791 --> 00:11:07.831

here to talk and she would

00:11:07.851 --> 00:11:08.971

write me letters and she

00:11:08.991 --> 00:11:10.292

would you know show up and

00:11:11.272 --> 00:11:12.473

just talk to me or whatever

00:11:12.493 --> 00:11:13.753

but none of my other

00:11:13.833 --> 00:11:15.514

friends from my ward even

00:11:15.754 --> 00:11:17.054

ever called me to talk to

00:11:17.094 --> 00:11:18.115

me about the divorce or to

00:11:18.215 --> 00:11:19.555

ask me any questions or to

00:11:19.575 --> 00:11:20.715

like see if i was okay or

00:11:20.756 --> 00:11:22.476

any of that stuff so i

00:11:22.516 --> 00:11:24.137

totally felt abandoned by

00:11:24.537 --> 00:11:27.378

everybody and so like that

00:11:27.418 --> 00:11:28.638

was really the beginning of

00:11:28.698 --> 00:11:30.979

my disaffection with the

00:11:31.019 --> 00:11:32.880

church and i i think i wrote

00:11:33.800 --> 00:11:34.902

i wrote my chapter of the

00:11:34.922 --> 00:11:37.164

book like around that time

00:11:37.525 --> 00:11:38.546

and it was really about

00:11:38.606 --> 00:11:39.768

like this three-pronged

00:11:39.828 --> 00:11:41.009

thing like there's three

00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:41.810

different parts to the

00:11:41.850 --> 00:11:43.012

church there's the doctrine

00:11:43.973 --> 00:11:45.294

there's the policies which

00:11:45.314 --> 00:11:46.876

are not doctrine because

00:11:46.916 --> 00:11:48.138

the apologies policies

00:11:48.178 --> 00:11:49.099

change all the time and

00:11:49.139 --> 00:11:50.020

then there's the culture

00:11:51.041 --> 00:11:54.024

And so I wrote about how I

00:11:54.064 --> 00:11:56.206

couldn't deal with the

00:11:56.266 --> 00:11:58.588

culture and how I was

00:12:00.169 --> 00:12:01.350

really upset about some of

00:12:01.390 --> 00:12:03.992

the policies when they

00:12:04.092 --> 00:12:05.213

first came out with the

00:12:05.273 --> 00:12:12.139

policies about LGBTQ people.

00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:13.901

The LDS Church reaffirms

00:12:13.941 --> 00:12:15.062

doctrine of marriage,

00:12:15.182 --> 00:12:17.524

updates policies on families and same-sex

00:12:19.894 --> 00:12:21.135

Children of a parent living

00:12:21.155 --> 00:12:22.636

in a same-gender relationship.

00:12:22.736 --> 00:12:23.937

It states that a natural or

00:12:23.957 --> 00:12:25.198

adopted child of a parent

00:12:25.218 --> 00:12:26.219

living in a same-gender

00:12:26.259 --> 00:12:27.039

relationship where the

00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:27.960

couple is married or

00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:29.521

cohabiting may not receive

00:12:29.601 --> 00:12:30.702

a name and a blessing.

00:12:31.883 --> 00:12:33.064

The handbook also states

00:12:33.104 --> 00:12:34.325

that a natural or adopted

00:12:34.385 --> 00:12:35.806

child of a parent living in

00:12:36.006 --> 00:12:37.488

a same-gender relationship,

00:12:37.508 --> 00:12:38.288

whether the couple is

00:12:38.348 --> 00:12:39.529

married or cohabitating,

00:12:39.889 --> 00:12:41.551

can only be baptized, confirmed,

00:12:41.651 --> 00:12:42.651

ordained to the priesthood,

00:12:42.692 --> 00:12:43.572

or serve a full-time

00:12:43.592 --> 00:12:45.093

mission with approval from

00:12:45.133 --> 00:12:47.055

the office of the First Presidency.

00:12:57.613 --> 00:12:59.154

The child accepts and is

00:12:59.194 --> 00:12:59.995

committed to live the

00:13:00.035 --> 00:13:01.035

teachings and doctrine of

00:13:01.055 --> 00:13:02.316

the church and specifically

00:13:02.356 --> 00:13:03.737

disavows the practice of

00:13:03.817 --> 00:13:05.799

same gender cohabitation in marriage.

00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:07.260

And the child is of legal

00:13:07.420 --> 00:13:08.701

age and does not live with

00:13:08.761 --> 00:13:10.402

a parent who has lived or

00:13:10.442 --> 00:13:11.703

currently lives in a same

00:13:11.743 --> 00:13:12.543

gender cohabitation.

00:13:12.563 --> 00:13:13.624

Their kids will be able to

00:13:13.644 --> 00:13:15.085

get baptized and all that kind of stuff.

00:13:15.105 --> 00:13:16.606

I had a really hard time with that.

00:13:17.587 --> 00:13:19.748

And then they changed the policy,

00:13:19.788 --> 00:13:21.249

but they still made it so that

00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:23.861

Even if you are legally

00:13:23.901 --> 00:13:25.563

married as a gay person,

00:13:25.943 --> 00:13:27.144

you're still considered to

00:13:27.184 --> 00:13:28.565

be committing a serious sin

00:13:28.585 --> 00:13:31.027

by being in a gay relationship.

00:13:40.211 --> 00:13:42.072

Then in the church reversed

00:13:42.172 --> 00:13:43.473

the policy changes by

00:13:43.533 --> 00:13:44.473

saying that children of

00:13:44.553 --> 00:13:45.514

parents who identify

00:13:45.534 --> 00:13:47.055

themselves as lesbian gay

00:13:47.095 --> 00:13:49.036

bisexual or transgender may

00:13:49.096 --> 00:13:50.637

now be blessed as infants

00:13:50.737 --> 00:13:51.857

and baptized in the Church

00:13:51.877 --> 00:13:52.678

of Jesus Christ of

00:13:52.698 --> 00:13:53.838

Latter-day Saints without

00:13:53.938 --> 00:13:55.339

first presidency approval.

00:13:57.275 --> 00:13:57.835

In addition,

00:13:57.915 --> 00:13:58.995

the church will no longer

00:13:59.075 --> 00:14:00.636

characterize same gender

00:14:00.676 --> 00:14:02.056

marriage by a church member

00:14:02.136 --> 00:14:04.477

as apostasy for purposes of

00:14:04.517 --> 00:14:05.377

church discipline,

00:14:05.457 --> 00:14:06.317

although it is still

00:14:06.357 --> 00:14:07.657

considered a serious

00:14:07.697 --> 00:14:08.677

transgression legally

00:14:08.697 --> 00:14:11.378

married doesn't absolve you

00:14:11.458 --> 00:14:12.958

from sexual sin.

00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:14.459

And so they're still

00:14:14.499 --> 00:14:18.060

treating gay people like criminal, well,

00:14:18.100 --> 00:14:19.720

not criminals, but like sinners.

00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:21.582

um who can't take the

00:14:21.622 --> 00:14:22.663

sacrament can't hold a

00:14:22.703 --> 00:14:24.186

calling can't you know go

00:14:24.206 --> 00:14:25.067

to the temple or any of

00:14:25.087 --> 00:14:26.509

that stuff even though

00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:27.590

they're in a legal marriage

00:14:27.670 --> 00:14:29.293

and i really had a hard time with that

00:14:30.449 --> 00:14:31.430

And then going through all

00:14:31.490 --> 00:14:33.572

of my therapy stuff about

00:14:33.752 --> 00:14:35.293

sexuality and healing

00:14:35.313 --> 00:14:36.634

through that and everything

00:14:36.674 --> 00:14:37.755

came to realize,

00:14:38.236 --> 00:14:42.339

or I guess be aware of how

00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:45.282

toxic the culture is and

00:14:45.562 --> 00:14:47.544

actually the teachings of

00:14:47.604 --> 00:14:48.945

the church around sex and

00:14:48.965 --> 00:14:50.787

sexuality and like how we

00:14:50.827 --> 00:14:52.188

don't ever talk about it.

00:14:52.208 --> 00:14:52.928

And when we do,

00:14:53.189 --> 00:14:54.470

we use this very sterile

00:14:54.510 --> 00:14:57.352

language and there's so much shame

00:14:58.458 --> 00:15:01.182

around sex and sexuality.

00:15:01.202 --> 00:15:02.564

And we don't talk about like

00:15:02.724 --> 00:15:04.106

normative sexual behaviors.

00:15:04.126 --> 00:15:05.408

We don't talk about healthy

00:15:05.468 --> 00:15:06.570

sexual development.

00:15:07.071 --> 00:15:08.152

And it just creates this

00:15:08.212 --> 00:15:10.696

environment for abusers.

00:15:10.936 --> 00:15:13.059

And it creates an environment where

00:15:15.047 --> 00:15:15.307

you know,

00:15:15.367 --> 00:15:18.949

young people feel ashamed to talk

00:15:18.989 --> 00:15:20.410

about sex and sexuality.

00:15:20.550 --> 00:15:21.631

And then when they get

00:15:21.671 --> 00:15:22.672

married are all of a sudden

00:15:22.712 --> 00:15:23.933

expected to be healthy

00:15:23.993 --> 00:15:25.053

sexual individuals.

00:15:25.634 --> 00:15:27.435

And I just think that's really toxic.

00:15:28.015 --> 00:15:29.917

And as I was kind of, you know,

00:15:31.188 --> 00:15:32.308

reading and researching

00:15:32.348 --> 00:15:33.629

about what healthy sexual

00:15:33.669 --> 00:15:34.649

development is and

00:15:34.709 --> 00:15:35.890

comparing that with the way

00:15:35.910 --> 00:15:36.910

that the church treats it

00:15:36.950 --> 00:15:38.831

and all this stuff this was

00:15:38.911 --> 00:15:42.092

in um so it's kind of

00:15:42.132 --> 00:15:45.534

during the pandemic um i

00:15:45.594 --> 00:15:47.334

actually emmy told me about

00:15:47.394 --> 00:15:49.195

this mormon sex therapist

00:15:50.316 --> 00:15:51.796

and i started following her

00:15:52.056 --> 00:15:55.177

and um on instagram and

00:15:55.257 --> 00:15:56.318

started listening to some

00:15:56.338 --> 00:15:57.318

of the things that she was

00:15:57.338 --> 00:15:59.239

teaching about healthy sexual development

00:16:02.471 --> 00:16:04.152

So Natasha Helfer is a

00:16:04.212 --> 00:16:05.692

certified sex therapist,

00:16:06.132 --> 00:16:08.273

and she is a podcaster, speaker,

00:16:08.313 --> 00:16:08.933

and author.

00:16:09.294 --> 00:16:10.334

She has a wonderful

00:16:10.454 --> 00:16:11.814

Instagram page that has a

00:16:11.855 --> 00:16:13.175

lot of encouragement for

00:16:13.235 --> 00:16:15.016

people going through faith transition,

00:16:15.456 --> 00:16:17.136

but especially the LGBTQ

00:16:17.156 --> 00:16:19.237

community who are either

00:16:19.337 --> 00:16:20.298

adjacent to the Mormon

00:16:20.318 --> 00:16:21.698

church or in the Mormon church.

00:16:22.058 --> 00:16:22.819

She's done a lot of

00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:23.859

supporting for healthy

00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:25.620

sexuality and for the

00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:27.680

unshaming of sex in the church culture.

00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:29.181

Like how warped my own

00:16:29.241 --> 00:16:30.461

sexual development had been

00:16:30.501 --> 00:16:31.602

because of what I went through.

00:16:33.128 --> 00:16:35.369

And shortly thereafter,

00:16:36.389 --> 00:16:37.550

she started posting this

00:16:37.570 --> 00:16:38.370

stuff about church

00:16:38.390 --> 00:16:40.371

disciplinary councils and

00:16:40.411 --> 00:16:44.553

that she was being excommunicated.

00:16:45.293 --> 00:16:47.134

And so I followed that story

00:16:47.174 --> 00:16:49.955

really closely because the

00:16:49.995 --> 00:16:50.955

reason she was being

00:16:51.075 --> 00:16:52.496

excommunicated is because

00:16:52.516 --> 00:16:54.397

she was teaching that

00:16:54.537 --> 00:16:56.618

masturbation is a normative

00:16:56.678 --> 00:16:57.658

sexual practice.

00:16:57.798 --> 00:16:58.899

that led her to be a sex

00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:00.919

therapist twenty-five years ago.

00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:03.060

For me, since I was five years old,

00:17:03.281 --> 00:17:04.381

when the missionaries came

00:17:04.401 --> 00:17:05.241

and knocked on our door and

00:17:05.261 --> 00:17:10.744

taught my family how to pray.

00:17:14.641 --> 00:17:16.022

That was the beginning of

00:17:16.162 --> 00:17:17.943

many spiritual experiences.

00:17:18.403 --> 00:17:19.743

Now the ASEC certified

00:17:19.763 --> 00:17:21.364

therapist feels the church

00:17:21.444 --> 00:17:23.785

is rejecting her for counseling.

00:17:23.845 --> 00:17:26.126

Masturbation is not a transgression.

00:17:26.467 --> 00:17:27.987

Pornography should not be

00:17:28.027 --> 00:17:30.028

treated as an addiction and

00:17:30.088 --> 00:17:33.010

publicly affirming the LGBTQ community.

00:17:33.470 --> 00:17:34.870

Helfer traveled to Kansas

00:17:34.951 --> 00:17:36.071

ahead of a disciplinary

00:17:36.111 --> 00:17:37.792

hearing Sunday where she

00:17:37.892 --> 00:17:39.353

lived prior to moving to

00:17:39.533 --> 00:17:41.313

Utah in late twenty nineteen.

00:17:41.674 --> 00:17:43.955

I'm supposed to be scared.

00:17:44.615 --> 00:17:48.578

for my eternal salvation.

00:17:48.938 --> 00:17:51.660

When my ministry is about

00:17:52.421 --> 00:17:54.522

reaching to the least among us,

00:17:56.444 --> 00:18:00.027

I have no qualms over every

00:18:00.107 --> 00:18:01.448

single thing I have said.

00:18:01.668 --> 00:18:03.890

Helfer's frankness on sexual issues,

00:18:04.010 --> 00:18:05.451

positions she says is in

00:18:05.491 --> 00:18:07.012

line with current licensed

00:18:07.092 --> 00:18:08.393

medical health practices,

00:18:08.833 --> 00:18:10.314

has received wide attention

00:18:10.354 --> 00:18:12.196

from current and former church members.

00:18:12.696 --> 00:18:13.917

While the spokesperson for

00:18:13.957 --> 00:18:15.017

the Church of Jesus Christ

00:18:15.057 --> 00:18:16.938

of Latter-day Saints declined to comment,

00:18:17.338 --> 00:18:18.698

letters sent to Helfer by

00:18:18.758 --> 00:18:20.619

local leadership says the

00:18:20.659 --> 00:18:22.260

state presidency will, quote,

00:18:22.580 --> 00:18:24.381

consider Helfer's repeated

00:18:24.541 --> 00:18:27.142

clear and public opposition to the church,

00:18:27.482 --> 00:18:29.182

its doctrine, its policies,

00:18:29.563 --> 00:18:31.383

and its leaders in the meeting.

00:18:31.623 --> 00:18:33.664

I am very fearful and very

00:18:33.704 --> 00:18:35.265

distressed that the

00:18:35.285 --> 00:18:36.685

decision in some ways has

00:18:36.785 --> 00:18:38.326

already been made.

00:18:39.883 --> 00:18:41.665

They would not let Natasha go in.

00:18:42.185 --> 00:18:44.167

She had her notes on her cell phone.

00:18:44.187 --> 00:18:45.508

They wanted to take her phone away.

00:18:46.589 --> 00:18:47.730

So she refused.

00:18:48.070 --> 00:18:49.591

And anyway,

00:18:49.611 --> 00:18:50.312

then they wouldn't let the

00:18:50.332 --> 00:18:51.172

witnesses go in.

00:18:51.613 --> 00:18:52.914

So we're basically done here.

00:18:53.594 --> 00:18:54.635

They've asked the police to

00:18:54.775 --> 00:18:56.036

escort us off the property.

00:18:56.096 --> 00:18:56.997

So you can see the police

00:18:57.017 --> 00:18:57.878

cars are showing up.

00:19:02.202 --> 00:19:04.984

So anyway, they can tell us.

00:19:06.746 --> 00:19:08.827

So they've canceled, uh,

00:19:08.847 --> 00:19:09.547

they've canceled the

00:19:09.588 --> 00:19:10.628

disciplinary council.

00:19:11.548 --> 00:19:16.210

There are at least three police cars, um,

00:19:16.810 --> 00:19:18.991

on the property.

00:19:19.091 --> 00:19:22.792

Here's the police and they're now,

00:19:24.853 --> 00:19:25.933

they're now escorting us

00:19:25.993 --> 00:19:30.235

off the property.

00:19:30.495 --> 00:19:31.876

Uh, there's the third police car.

00:19:32.216 --> 00:19:33.036

There's the policeman.

00:19:35.139 --> 00:19:37.460

And what we'll do is when we

00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:40.042

convene with Natasha later,

00:19:42.123 --> 00:19:43.864

we are going to hear her

00:19:43.904 --> 00:19:45.345

story and kind of hear

00:19:46.345 --> 00:19:47.246

what's been going on.

00:19:48.827 --> 00:19:50.187

Maybe before we end,

00:19:52.328 --> 00:19:53.949

we'll just kind of show the

00:19:53.989 --> 00:19:57.111

crowd one more time and

00:19:57.952 --> 00:19:58.832

show everybody here.

00:19:59.232 --> 00:20:00.453

People are kind of disappointed.

00:20:03.290 --> 00:20:04.915

And sorry things didn't turn

00:20:05.015 --> 00:20:06.139

out quite like we thought,

00:20:06.199 --> 00:20:07.182

but we all love you, Natasha.

00:20:07.202 --> 00:20:08.005

She talked in one of her

00:20:10.142 --> 00:20:13.525

podcasts about how her

00:20:13.825 --> 00:20:16.187

licensing requires her to

00:20:16.247 --> 00:20:18.008

teach the scientific truth

00:20:18.489 --> 00:20:20.891

about sexual health but her

00:20:20.931 --> 00:20:22.032

membership in the church

00:20:22.132 --> 00:20:23.933

requires her to lie about

00:20:24.754 --> 00:20:26.455

scientific information on

00:20:26.515 --> 00:20:27.716

sexual health and it was

00:20:27.776 --> 00:20:29.478

really at odds you know

00:20:29.518 --> 00:20:32.200

with she felt like if she

00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:34.702

stuck to the church um

00:20:36.254 --> 00:20:38.895

the church's line of

00:20:38.955 --> 00:20:40.136

reasoning about sexual

00:20:40.176 --> 00:20:41.736

health and sexual development,

00:20:42.337 --> 00:20:44.057

that she was in danger of

00:20:44.137 --> 00:20:45.238

losing her licensure.

00:20:45.858 --> 00:20:47.259

And if she stuck with what

00:20:47.299 --> 00:20:49.440

her licensure told her that

00:20:49.460 --> 00:20:50.300

she needed to do,

00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:51.961

that she was in danger of

00:20:52.441 --> 00:20:53.742

losing her church membership.

00:20:54.182 --> 00:20:56.683

So she was really at odds with what to do.

00:20:57.703 --> 00:21:01.045

And she struggled with it,

00:21:01.085 --> 00:21:02.445

but she ultimately came to

00:21:02.465 --> 00:21:03.786

the conclusion that like,

00:21:06.118 --> 00:21:07.619

she can't teach lies.

00:21:07.979 --> 00:21:09.339

And the church is

00:21:09.820 --> 00:21:11.280

promulgating these lies

00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:12.421

about sexual health.

00:21:12.541 --> 00:21:13.601

And they told her initially

00:21:13.641 --> 00:21:14.602

that she was allowed to

00:21:14.662 --> 00:21:16.102

have some witnesses who

00:21:16.122 --> 00:21:17.083

could speak for her,

00:21:17.523 --> 00:21:18.443

but then they wouldn't let

00:21:18.483 --> 00:21:19.624

her witnesses come in.

00:21:20.344 --> 00:21:21.865

And they also wouldn't even

00:21:21.925 --> 00:21:23.265

let her witnesses use the

00:21:23.285 --> 00:21:24.546

bathroom at the stake center

00:21:25.886 --> 00:21:26.647

They were just really,

00:21:26.707 --> 00:21:29.970

really cold and horrible to her.

00:21:30.070 --> 00:21:31.691

She said it was very obvious

00:21:31.751 --> 00:21:32.912

from the beginning of the

00:21:32.932 --> 00:21:33.953

proceedings that they had

00:21:33.993 --> 00:21:34.893

already decided to

00:21:34.954 --> 00:21:36.715

excommunicate her and it

00:21:36.755 --> 00:21:38.817

didn't really matter what she said,

00:21:39.497 --> 00:21:41.038

that she felt her voice was

00:21:41.078 --> 00:21:42.559

being silenced and she was

00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:44.421

not allowed to speak.

00:21:44.601 --> 00:21:45.502

She was not allowed to

00:21:45.562 --> 00:21:46.763

really stand up for herself.

00:21:47.815 --> 00:21:50.477

And I've always hated church

00:21:50.517 --> 00:21:51.577

disciplinary hearings.

00:21:51.637 --> 00:21:52.578

I've always felt that they

00:21:52.598 --> 00:21:54.619

were like really, I don't know,

00:21:54.639 --> 00:21:55.640

you've got this entity

00:21:55.660 --> 00:21:57.140

that's incredibly powerful

00:21:58.001 --> 00:21:58.982

and you've got an

00:21:59.082 --> 00:22:01.043

individual who doesn't

00:22:01.083 --> 00:22:02.644

really have any say in the matter.

00:22:02.944 --> 00:22:04.725

And it's like once they've

00:22:04.765 --> 00:22:06.426

decided that you've done something wrong,

00:22:07.086 --> 00:22:07.986

It doesn't really matter

00:22:08.026 --> 00:22:08.927

what you say or how you

00:22:08.967 --> 00:22:10.047

defend yourself because

00:22:10.067 --> 00:22:11.248

they're not going to listen to you.

00:22:11.748 --> 00:22:13.408

I've kind of seen that

00:22:13.468 --> 00:22:14.929

pattern happen to people

00:22:14.949 --> 00:22:16.210

who've been excommunicated.

00:22:16.290 --> 00:22:17.170

And I think it's just a

00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:19.511

really violent process and

00:22:20.131 --> 00:22:21.531

a very abusive dynamic.

00:22:21.611 --> 00:22:23.272

So I was really disappointed about that.

00:22:23.292 --> 00:22:25.653

Between that and the LGBTQ policies.

00:22:25.813 --> 00:22:26.934

the way that the church

00:22:27.114 --> 00:22:29.556

refers to LGBTQ people and

00:22:29.576 --> 00:22:30.917

the way that they treat them,

00:22:30.997 --> 00:22:32.518

I just had been really

00:22:32.738 --> 00:22:34.719

disaffected by all of that stuff,

00:22:34.739 --> 00:22:36.000

by the policies and everything.

00:22:36.020 --> 00:22:36.821

And that's kind of where I

00:22:36.861 --> 00:22:40.023

was when we got together last year.

00:22:40.384 --> 00:22:42.145

In August of twenty twenty one.

00:22:43.310 --> 00:22:44.451

Jeffrey Holland,

00:22:44.731 --> 00:22:46.672

who is an apostle or one of

00:22:46.732 --> 00:22:48.093

the main leaders of the

00:22:48.133 --> 00:22:49.234

Church of Jesus Christ of

00:22:49.274 --> 00:22:50.214

Latter-day Saints,

00:22:50.755 --> 00:22:52.216

gave a speech at Brigham

00:22:52.236 --> 00:22:53.756

Young University where he

00:22:53.977 --> 00:22:56.078

urged the faculty, staff,

00:22:56.118 --> 00:22:57.819

and students to remain set

00:22:57.859 --> 00:22:59.500

apart from the world and

00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:01.241

uphold the standards of the

00:23:01.281 --> 00:23:02.982

Marriage and Family Proclamation,

00:23:03.082 --> 00:23:04.323

which states that marriage

00:23:04.363 --> 00:23:06.544

should only be between a man and a woman.

00:23:06.905 --> 00:23:08.365

At a time when violence

00:23:08.405 --> 00:23:10.287

against the LGBTQ community

00:23:10.447 --> 00:23:11.708

was escalating,

00:23:12.648 --> 00:23:14.169

He quoted another church

00:23:14.189 --> 00:23:15.590

official who literally

00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:17.312

called for musket fire.

00:23:17.532 --> 00:23:18.693

He quoted our colleague,

00:23:18.733 --> 00:23:21.035

Elder Neal A. Maxwell, who had said,

00:23:21.075 --> 00:23:23.256

and I quote, In a way,

00:23:23.296 --> 00:23:24.497

Latter-day Saint scholars

00:23:24.537 --> 00:23:26.439

at BYU and elsewhere are a

00:23:26.499 --> 00:23:27.199

little bit like the

00:23:27.239 --> 00:23:28.901

builders of the temple in Nauvoo,

00:23:29.521 --> 00:23:30.742

who worked with a trowel in

00:23:30.862 --> 00:23:32.463

one hand and a musket in the other.

00:23:33.304 --> 00:23:34.605

Today's scholars building

00:23:34.645 --> 00:23:36.867

the temple of learning must

00:23:36.987 --> 00:23:38.688

also pause on occasion to

00:23:38.728 --> 00:23:39.569

defend the kingdom.

00:23:40.489 --> 00:23:41.310

I personally think,

00:23:41.370 --> 00:23:42.830

Elder Maxwell went on to say,

00:23:43.431 --> 00:23:44.491

this is one of the reasons

00:23:44.511 --> 00:23:45.612

the Lord established and

00:23:45.652 --> 00:23:47.113

maintains this university.

00:23:47.833 --> 00:23:49.835

The dual role of builder and

00:23:49.895 --> 00:23:52.576

defender is unique and ongoing.

00:23:53.517 --> 00:23:54.417

I'm grateful we have

00:23:54.457 --> 00:23:56.819

scholars today who can handle, as it were,

00:23:57.479 --> 00:23:59.941

both trowel and musket.

00:23:59.961 --> 00:24:02.462

Then Elder Oaks said, challengingly,

00:24:03.503 --> 00:24:04.403

I'd like to hear a little

00:24:04.423 --> 00:24:06.444

more musket fire from the

00:24:06.484 --> 00:24:07.305

Temple of Learning.

00:24:08.995 --> 00:24:10.235

He said this in a way that

00:24:10.395 --> 00:24:11.276

could have applied to a

00:24:11.356 --> 00:24:13.676

host of topics in various departments,

00:24:14.536 --> 00:24:15.797

but the one he specifically

00:24:15.837 --> 00:24:17.037

mentioned was the doctrine

00:24:17.077 --> 00:24:19.237

of the family and defending

00:24:19.277 --> 00:24:20.758

marriage as the union of a

00:24:20.798 --> 00:24:21.698

man and a woman.

00:24:21.978 --> 00:24:23.258

We have to be careful that

00:24:23.378 --> 00:24:26.119

love and empathy do not get

00:24:26.179 --> 00:24:28.660

interpreted as condoning and advocacy,

00:24:30.100 --> 00:24:31.560

or that orthodoxy and

00:24:31.620 --> 00:24:34.801

loyalty to principle not be

00:24:34.881 --> 00:24:36.562

interpreted as unkindness

00:24:36.622 --> 00:24:37.902

or disloyalty to people.

00:24:39.624 --> 00:24:42.626

as near as i can tell christ

00:24:42.826 --> 00:24:44.687

never once withheld his

00:24:44.767 --> 00:24:47.749

love from anyone but he

00:24:48.030 --> 00:24:50.691

also never once said to

00:24:50.871 --> 00:24:53.413

anyone because i love you

00:24:53.753 --> 00:24:55.234

you are exempt from keeping

00:24:55.274 --> 00:24:56.815

my commandment we will

00:24:56.955 --> 00:24:58.176

always need defenders of

00:24:58.196 --> 00:25:01.418

the faith but friendly fire

00:25:01.498 --> 00:25:04.360

is a tragedy and from time

00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:05.521

to time the church

00:25:06.675 --> 00:25:08.376

Its leaders and some of our

00:25:08.416 --> 00:25:09.417

colleagues within the

00:25:09.477 --> 00:25:11.438

university community have

00:25:11.498 --> 00:25:13.819

taken such fire on this campus.

00:25:15.340 --> 00:25:16.901

And sometimes it isn't friendly.

00:25:18.782 --> 00:25:20.883

Wounding students and the

00:25:20.943 --> 00:25:22.104

parents of students.

00:25:23.425 --> 00:25:25.786

So many who are confused

00:25:26.587 --> 00:25:28.268

about what so much recent

00:25:28.308 --> 00:25:30.169

flag waving and parade

00:25:30.209 --> 00:25:31.830

holding on this issue means.

00:25:33.563 --> 00:25:34.964

My beloved friends,

00:25:35.265 --> 00:25:37.807

this kind of confusion and

00:25:37.847 --> 00:25:41.390

conflict ought not to be not here.

00:25:41.650 --> 00:25:42.871

My brethren have made the

00:25:42.931 --> 00:25:45.493

case for the metaphor of musket fire,

00:25:46.454 --> 00:25:50.117

which I have endorsed yet again today.

00:25:50.137 --> 00:25:51.699

There will continue to be

00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:53.620

those who oppose our teachings,

00:25:54.801 --> 00:25:58.344

and that will continue the need to define,

00:25:58.825 --> 00:26:01.107

document, and defend the faith.

00:26:03.176 --> 00:26:11.441

But we all look forward to

00:26:11.461 --> 00:26:15.524

the day when we can beat

00:26:15.584 --> 00:26:19.066

our swords into plowshares

00:26:20.987 --> 00:26:23.309

and our spears into pruning hooks.

00:26:27.770 --> 00:26:29.611

Yeah, I look forward to that day too,

00:26:29.631 --> 00:26:31.232

and I think that day starts

00:26:31.512 --> 00:26:35.274

with not using metaphors

00:26:36.495 --> 00:26:40.938

and rhetoric that reinforce violence.

00:26:41.158 --> 00:26:43.299

I just was very disappointed in the church,

00:26:43.319 --> 00:26:44.460

and I think...

00:26:45.241 --> 00:26:46.242

You know, I did, I did,

00:26:46.382 --> 00:26:47.263

I started doing some

00:26:47.303 --> 00:26:48.825

research because I remember

00:26:48.845 --> 00:26:50.446

when I was teaching gospel doctrine,

00:26:50.927 --> 00:26:52.548

that there were some black

00:26:52.588 --> 00:26:54.030

people and women who were

00:26:54.090 --> 00:26:55.191

ordained to the priesthood.

00:26:56.011 --> 00:26:57.933

And I went back and looked

00:26:58.033 --> 00:27:00.095

through these documents and sure enough,

00:27:00.456 --> 00:27:01.657

um,

00:27:01.677 --> 00:27:03.459

there were some black people and some

00:27:03.479 --> 00:27:04.840

women who were ordained to

00:27:04.860 --> 00:27:05.461

the priesthood.

00:27:05.841 --> 00:27:06.602

Elijah Abel.

00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:08.750

was one of the earliest

00:27:08.850 --> 00:27:10.050

African-American members of

00:27:10.070 --> 00:27:11.111

the Church of Jesus Christ

00:27:11.151 --> 00:27:12.891

of Latter-day Saints and

00:27:12.931 --> 00:27:14.051

was the church's first

00:27:14.211 --> 00:27:17.232

African-American elder and Seventy.

00:27:17.672 --> 00:27:18.792

The Quorum of the Seventy

00:27:18.832 --> 00:27:19.792

was one of the governing

00:27:19.832 --> 00:27:21.033

bodies of the church that

00:27:21.093 --> 00:27:22.393

had a little bit more power

00:27:22.413 --> 00:27:23.573

back in the early church.

00:27:23.913 --> 00:27:24.853

He was the first and one of

00:27:24.873 --> 00:27:26.054

the few Black members in

00:27:26.074 --> 00:27:26.894

the early history of the

00:27:26.914 --> 00:27:27.954

church to have received

00:27:28.074 --> 00:27:29.274

priesthood ordination,

00:27:29.434 --> 00:27:30.715

later becoming the faith's

00:27:30.775 --> 00:27:32.335

first Black missionary.

00:27:33.115 --> 00:27:33.975

Abel did not have his

00:27:34.055 --> 00:27:35.276

ordination revoked when the

00:27:35.376 --> 00:27:37.196

LDS Church officially announced its new

00:27:37.797 --> 00:27:38.879

its now obsolete

00:27:38.899 --> 00:27:40.804

restrictions on priesthood ordination,

00:27:41.305 --> 00:27:42.728

but was denied a chance to

00:27:42.768 --> 00:27:43.610

receive his temple

00:27:43.650 --> 00:27:45.595

endowment by Third Church

00:27:45.655 --> 00:27:46.798

President John Taylor.

00:27:47.721 --> 00:27:49.622

On June twenty fifth, eighteen forty three,

00:27:49.742 --> 00:27:50.703

a regional conference

00:27:50.783 --> 00:27:51.904

occurred in Cincinnati,

00:27:52.304 --> 00:27:53.825

presided over by LDS Church

00:27:53.865 --> 00:27:56.147

Apostles John E. Page, Orson Pratt,

00:27:56.527 --> 00:27:57.748

Eber Kimball and future

00:27:57.788 --> 00:27:59.169

Apostle Lorenzo Snow.

00:27:59.669 --> 00:28:00.570

During the conference,

00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:02.071

questions regarding Abel

00:28:02.091 --> 00:28:03.392

and his membership were addressed,

00:28:03.772 --> 00:28:04.252

including the

00:28:04.272 --> 00:28:05.293

acknowledgment of recent

00:28:05.333 --> 00:28:06.614

complaints about Abel's

00:28:06.674 --> 00:28:07.955

public preaching activity.

00:28:08.617 --> 00:28:09.757

Page stated that while he

00:28:09.797 --> 00:28:11.398

respected a colored brother,

00:28:11.838 --> 00:28:12.958

wisdom forbid that we

00:28:12.978 --> 00:28:14.919

should introduce him before the public.

00:28:15.379 --> 00:28:16.599

Pratt and Kimball supported

00:28:16.659 --> 00:28:17.560

Page's statements,

00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:18.940

and the leaders resolved to

00:28:18.980 --> 00:28:20.540

restrict Abel's activities

00:28:20.721 --> 00:28:21.781

as a member of the church.

00:28:22.261 --> 00:28:23.961

This was after seven years

00:28:24.162 --> 00:28:27.402

of faithful service in the priesthood.

00:28:27.482 --> 00:28:28.643

In eighteen forty nine,

00:28:28.783 --> 00:28:29.643

Brigham Young issued a

00:28:29.703 --> 00:28:30.903

church wide ban on black

00:28:30.943 --> 00:28:32.044

men from being ordained to

00:28:32.064 --> 00:28:32.624

the priesthood.

00:28:33.190 --> 00:28:34.570

The policy's initial reveal

00:28:34.610 --> 00:28:36.231

by Young to the Twelve may

00:28:36.271 --> 00:28:37.171

have occurred up to two

00:28:37.191 --> 00:28:38.871

years earlier at Winter Quarters,

00:28:39.091 --> 00:28:39.651

Nebraska.

00:28:40.371 --> 00:28:41.412

Young's pronouncements in

00:28:41.492 --> 00:28:42.312

eighteen forty nine

00:28:42.352 --> 00:28:43.472

constitute the earliest

00:28:43.512 --> 00:28:44.312

known statements which

00:28:44.352 --> 00:28:45.972

officially exclude those of

00:28:46.073 --> 00:28:47.053

African descent from a

00:28:47.113 --> 00:28:48.433

temple endowment or the

00:28:48.473 --> 00:28:49.793

wielding of priesthood power.

00:28:50.453 --> 00:28:51.334

The decision may have been

00:28:51.354 --> 00:28:52.294

brought about in part by

00:28:52.314 --> 00:28:53.814

the actions of William McCary,

00:28:53.934 --> 00:28:55.294

an African-American convert

00:28:55.314 --> 00:28:56.174

to the church living in

00:28:56.234 --> 00:28:58.595

Cincinnati who believed he was a prophet.

00:28:59.075 --> 00:28:59.956

and claimed on various

00:28:59.996 --> 00:29:01.757

occasions to be Jesus and Adam,

00:29:01.857 --> 00:29:03.078

father of the human race.

00:29:03.979 --> 00:29:05.039

In eighteen forty seven,

00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:08.242

as the saints resided at winter quarters,

00:29:09.322 --> 00:29:10.842

McCary was excommunicated

00:29:10.942 --> 00:29:12.063

following the discovery of

00:29:12.103 --> 00:29:13.123

various unauthorized

00:29:13.143 --> 00:29:14.924

polygamous ceilings performed in his home,

00:29:15.124 --> 00:29:16.244

keeping in mind that at

00:29:16.284 --> 00:29:18.124

this time Joseph Smith had

00:29:18.224 --> 00:29:19.605

already performed many

00:29:19.665 --> 00:29:20.645

polygamous ceilings.

00:29:21.005 --> 00:29:22.206

As members of the LDS Church

00:29:22.246 --> 00:29:23.686

continued to migrate to the West,

00:29:24.086 --> 00:29:25.166

Mormons were exposed to a

00:29:25.206 --> 00:29:26.827

larger population of Black people,

00:29:27.167 --> 00:29:28.287

and anti-Black political

00:29:28.387 --> 00:29:29.507

attitudes continued to

00:29:29.568 --> 00:29:30.948

increase among church members.

00:29:31.468 --> 00:29:32.728

Other Black members of the church,

00:29:33.048 --> 00:29:34.349

such as Q. Walker Lewis,

00:29:34.709 --> 00:29:35.709

also found themselves in

00:29:35.729 --> 00:29:36.709

their church membership

00:29:36.849 --> 00:29:38.290

under scrutiny during this period.

00:29:38.870 --> 00:29:40.011

By eighteen forty-seven,

00:29:40.111 --> 00:29:41.171

Abel's priesthood authority

00:29:41.191 --> 00:29:42.272

had begun to be challenged

00:29:42.312 --> 00:29:43.552

despite his well-respected

00:29:43.612 --> 00:29:45.153

status within the church community.

00:29:45.733 --> 00:29:46.714

Even after the eighteen

00:29:46.754 --> 00:29:47.714

forty-nine official

00:29:47.754 --> 00:29:48.755

prohibition for all

00:29:48.815 --> 00:29:50.376

Latter-day Saint brethren of color,

00:29:50.836 --> 00:29:52.397

Abel remained involved in the church.

00:29:52.937 --> 00:29:54.678

As one who already held the priesthood,

00:29:55.018 --> 00:29:56.239

he continued to serve as a

00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:57.819

Seventy in Cincinnati from

00:29:57.879 --> 00:29:58.700

eighteen forty-two to

00:29:58.760 --> 00:29:59.740

eighteen fifty-three,

00:30:00.321 --> 00:30:01.001

and in the autumn of

00:30:01.081 --> 00:30:01.921

eighteen eighty-three

00:30:01.961 --> 00:30:03.022

served another mission to

00:30:03.062 --> 00:30:05.043

Cincinnati shortly before his death.

00:30:06.035 --> 00:30:06.916

After Abel's death,

00:30:07.016 --> 00:30:08.398

LDS Church President Joseph

00:30:08.518 --> 00:30:09.439

F. Smith on multiple

00:30:09.479 --> 00:30:10.781

occasions declared Abel's

00:30:10.841 --> 00:30:12.162

ordination to priesthood as

00:30:12.523 --> 00:30:13.784

null and void by Joseph

00:30:13.824 --> 00:30:15.726

Smith himself because of his blackness,

00:30:16.487 --> 00:30:17.548

suggesting based on

00:30:17.608 --> 00:30:18.509

Coltrane's previous

00:30:19.471 --> 00:30:20.952

testimony that Joseph Smith

00:30:20.992 --> 00:30:22.354

before his death had indeed

00:30:22.394 --> 00:30:24.316

repented of his initial

00:30:24.356 --> 00:30:25.578

decision that Abel receive

00:30:25.618 --> 00:30:26.178

the priesthood.

00:30:26.959 --> 00:30:28.160

Scarcely a few years had

00:30:28.220 --> 00:30:29.521

passed since Joseph F.

00:30:29.561 --> 00:30:31.703

Smith had himself been the

00:30:31.823 --> 00:30:33.405

one to ordain Abel and set

00:30:33.445 --> 00:30:34.826

him apart to serve his

00:30:34.866 --> 00:30:35.887

final church mission.

00:30:36.607 --> 00:30:38.369

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith,

00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:40.191

who later became president of the church,

00:30:40.231 --> 00:30:41.552

went so far as to suggest

00:30:41.892 --> 00:30:43.674

that there had been two Elijah Abels,

00:30:43.834 --> 00:30:45.375

one white and one black.

00:30:45.876 --> 00:30:46.997

I also want to point out

00:30:47.017 --> 00:30:48.698

that long before the priesthood ban,

00:30:48.738 --> 00:30:49.459

which was lifted in

00:30:51.376 --> 00:30:54.879

Abel's son and grandson, Enoch and Elijah,

00:30:54.939 --> 00:30:56.220

had both been ordained to

00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:57.561

the Melchizedek Priesthood,

00:30:57.721 --> 00:31:04.986

Enoch in and Elijah in .

00:31:02.405 --> 00:31:04.767

When Joseph Smith died and

00:31:05.348 --> 00:31:07.550

Brigham Young took over, those

00:31:09.991 --> 00:31:11.792

policies were changed or or

00:31:11.852 --> 00:31:12.932

at least it was like it

00:31:12.972 --> 00:31:14.193

became a policy that we

00:31:14.213 --> 00:31:15.553

didn't ordain black people

00:31:15.573 --> 00:31:16.754

at that point you know it

00:31:16.814 --> 00:31:17.814

seems like oh it didn't

00:31:17.854 --> 00:31:18.595

come from the prophet

00:31:18.615 --> 00:31:19.655

joseph smith and nobody

00:31:19.695 --> 00:31:20.895

ever received a revelation

00:31:20.915 --> 00:31:22.416

that said black people and

00:31:22.456 --> 00:31:23.497

women should not receive

00:31:23.517 --> 00:31:24.537

the priesthood it was just

00:31:24.577 --> 00:31:25.377

what was culturally

00:31:25.417 --> 00:31:26.498

acceptable at the time

00:31:27.398 --> 00:31:28.719

And so I started to kind of

00:31:28.739 --> 00:31:31.261

blame Brigham Young for that and just say,

00:31:31.301 --> 00:31:31.542

like,

00:31:32.002 --> 00:31:33.823

that's not what Joseph Smith did and

00:31:34.524 --> 00:31:36.286

maybe we need to revisit this stuff.

00:31:36.326 --> 00:31:39.188

And so I started doing some

00:31:39.208 --> 00:31:40.629

more digging about church

00:31:40.669 --> 00:31:42.551

history and priesthood stuff.

00:31:42.611 --> 00:31:43.652

And I came across this

00:31:43.972 --> 00:31:46.694

scholarly article where

00:31:46.894 --> 00:31:49.577

there was a meeting in

00:31:49.637 --> 00:31:52.679

nineteen twenty two where B.H.

00:31:52.739 --> 00:31:55.622

Roberts was a church historian and he

00:31:56.689 --> 00:31:59.550

brought up to the church

00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:01.210

leadership at the time like

00:32:01.530 --> 00:32:02.970

the entirety of the church

00:32:03.010 --> 00:32:05.111

leadership met at that time

00:32:05.251 --> 00:32:06.351

and he brought up to them

00:32:07.431 --> 00:32:09.172

um these problems with the

00:32:09.192 --> 00:32:11.692

book of mormon and they

00:32:11.732 --> 00:32:13.413

completely ignored it

00:32:13.793 --> 00:32:15.873

basically that you have on

00:32:15.953 --> 00:32:18.854

record um members of the

00:32:19.134 --> 00:32:20.294

presidency of the church

00:32:20.334 --> 00:32:21.414

saying that like if the

00:32:21.434 --> 00:32:22.435

papers ever got out it

00:32:22.455 --> 00:32:23.715

would be the end of mormonism

00:32:24.257 --> 00:32:25.778

In her graduate thesis at

00:32:25.798 --> 00:32:27.320

the University of Nevada, Reno,

00:32:27.940 --> 00:32:29.402

Shannon Caldwell Montez

00:32:29.582 --> 00:32:30.743

wrote a paper called The

00:32:30.783 --> 00:32:31.844

Secret Mormon Meetings of

00:32:31.904 --> 00:32:32.885

Nineteen Twenty Two.

00:32:33.425 --> 00:32:34.306

H. Roberts presented

00:32:34.326 --> 00:32:35.107

information to the

00:32:35.127 --> 00:32:36.128

leadership of the Church of

00:32:36.148 --> 00:32:37.249

Jesus Christ of Latter-day

00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:38.350

Saints in January of

00:32:38.410 --> 00:32:39.351

nineteen twenty two that

00:32:39.371 --> 00:32:40.372

fundamentally challenged

00:32:40.412 --> 00:32:41.693

the entire premise of their

00:32:41.713 --> 00:32:42.534

religious beliefs.

00:32:43.174 --> 00:32:44.396

New research shows that in

00:32:44.456 --> 00:32:45.697

addition to church leadership,

00:32:45.738 --> 00:32:46.959

this information was also

00:32:46.979 --> 00:32:48.041

presented during the next

00:32:48.101 --> 00:32:49.583

few months to a select

00:32:49.603 --> 00:32:50.864

group of highly educated

00:32:50.904 --> 00:32:51.745

Mormon men and women

00:32:51.846 --> 00:32:53.187

outside of church hierarchy.

00:32:53.748 --> 00:32:54.890

This group represented many

00:32:55.010 --> 00:32:56.171

aspects of Mormon belief,

00:32:56.532 --> 00:32:58.014

different areas of expertise,

00:32:58.094 --> 00:32:59.335

and varying approaches to

00:32:59.375 --> 00:33:00.998

dealing with challenging information.

00:33:01.518 --> 00:33:02.639

In her graduate studies at

00:33:02.659 --> 00:33:04.200

the University of Nevada, Reno,

00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:05.842

Shannon Caldwell Montez

00:33:06.262 --> 00:33:07.303

reports on the secret

00:33:07.343 --> 00:33:09.404

Mormon meetings of nineteen twenty two.

00:33:09.525 --> 00:33:09.845

B.H.

00:33:09.885 --> 00:33:10.726

Roberts was a church

00:33:10.766 --> 00:33:12.087

historian and a member of

00:33:12.127 --> 00:33:13.208

the presidency of the Forum

00:33:13.248 --> 00:33:13.948

of the Seventies.

00:33:14.449 --> 00:33:15.870

So he was very close with

00:33:15.890 --> 00:33:17.291

the church leadership and

00:33:17.311 --> 00:33:19.292

the prophets and apostles of the time.

00:33:19.433 --> 00:33:20.974

Shannon Caldwell Montez writes.

00:33:21.214 --> 00:33:21.494

B.H.

00:33:21.534 --> 00:33:22.815

Robert's Book of Mormon Studies,

00:33:22.835 --> 00:33:23.495

written in nineteen

00:33:23.515 --> 00:33:24.916

twenty-one and nineteen twenty-two,

00:33:25.196 --> 00:33:26.517

used scientific discovery

00:33:26.637 --> 00:33:27.857

and literary analysis to

00:33:27.897 --> 00:33:29.198

examine problems relating

00:33:29.238 --> 00:33:30.358

to the authenticity and

00:33:30.378 --> 00:33:31.959

historicity of the Book of Mormon.

00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:33.860

At least some of Robert's

00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:35.321

papers were presented to

00:33:35.381 --> 00:33:36.441

select groups of people in

00:33:36.481 --> 00:33:37.362

nineteen twenty-two,

00:33:37.922 --> 00:33:39.002

and almost all were kept

00:33:39.062 --> 00:33:39.923

private until they were

00:33:39.963 --> 00:33:41.263

discovered and published in

00:33:41.323 --> 00:33:42.204

nineteen eighty-five.

00:33:43.124 --> 00:33:44.185

The controversial papers

00:33:44.205 --> 00:33:45.886

consisted of three main documents.

00:33:46.126 --> 00:33:46.586

The first

00:33:46.982 --> 00:33:48.143

Book of Mormon Difficulties,

00:33:48.243 --> 00:33:49.964

a study consisted of one

00:33:49.984 --> 00:33:50.865

hundred and forty one

00:33:50.885 --> 00:33:52.046

typewritten pages and

00:33:52.086 --> 00:33:53.227

discussed issues relating

00:33:53.267 --> 00:33:55.328

to scientific external difficulties.

00:33:55.929 --> 00:33:57.210

External issues included the

00:33:57.310 --> 00:33:58.410

unfeasibility of the

00:33:58.430 --> 00:33:59.531

proliferation of Native

00:33:59.571 --> 00:34:00.832

American languages from a

00:34:00.852 --> 00:34:02.954

single Hebrew source in too short a time,

00:34:03.634 --> 00:34:04.795

a lack of archaeological

00:34:04.835 --> 00:34:05.576

proof to support

00:34:05.636 --> 00:34:07.157

anachronisms such as horses

00:34:07.237 --> 00:34:08.958

and other domestic plants and animals,

00:34:09.238 --> 00:34:10.920

chariots, steel and silk,

00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.441

unknown in the Americas

00:34:12.521 --> 00:34:14.022

prior to European contact,

00:34:14.062 --> 00:34:15.323

but mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

00:34:16.106 --> 00:34:17.606

and archaeological evidence

00:34:17.626 --> 00:34:18.486

that conflicted with the

00:34:18.506 --> 00:34:19.527

Book of Mormon narrative,

00:34:19.547 --> 00:34:20.507

such as evidence that

00:34:20.527 --> 00:34:21.847

people migrated from Asia

00:34:21.987 --> 00:34:23.027

and populations were more

00:34:23.127 --> 00:34:24.308

ancient and less Christian

00:34:24.368 --> 00:34:25.568

than the Book of Mormon allows.

00:34:26.508 --> 00:34:27.628

The document was presented

00:34:27.648 --> 00:34:29.969

to church officials in January,

00:34:30.089 --> 00:34:31.089

as evidenced by journal

00:34:31.169 --> 00:34:32.189

entries and letters by

00:34:32.229 --> 00:34:33.109

those in attendance.

00:34:33.609 --> 00:34:34.449

These meetings did not

00:34:34.489 --> 00:34:35.770

result in the answers or

00:34:35.830 --> 00:34:37.370

attention Roberts was hoping for.

00:34:37.830 --> 00:34:38.810

His disappointment in the

00:34:38.850 --> 00:34:39.750

results of these meetings

00:34:39.810 --> 00:34:40.971

led to a second series of

00:34:40.991 --> 00:34:42.971

meetings held in the home of James Moyle.

00:34:43.523 --> 00:34:44.264

In these meetings,

00:34:44.364 --> 00:34:45.545

a now-identified group of

00:34:45.565 --> 00:34:46.826

highly educated Mormons

00:34:46.926 --> 00:34:48.107

discussed the issues raised

00:34:48.147 --> 00:34:49.188

by Roberts' Book of Mormon

00:34:49.208 --> 00:34:50.208

Difficulties study.

00:34:50.889 --> 00:34:51.830

Roberts' continued

00:34:51.870 --> 00:34:53.251

investigations resulted in

00:34:53.311 --> 00:34:54.212

a second document,

00:34:54.452 --> 00:34:55.493

a Book of Mormon study.

00:34:55.933 --> 00:34:57.054

It is unknown whether the

00:34:57.094 --> 00:34:58.155

assembled intellectuals

00:34:58.175 --> 00:34:59.416

were aware of or helped

00:34:59.456 --> 00:35:01.257

with the creation of the second document.

00:35:01.858 --> 00:35:02.759

Roberts was writing it

00:35:02.799 --> 00:35:03.619

during the period of the

00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:05.621

Moyle meetings with the intelligentsia.

00:35:06.288 --> 00:35:07.068

subsequent to his

00:35:07.108 --> 00:35:08.129

disappointing meetings with

00:35:08.149 --> 00:35:08.729

the leadership.

00:35:09.229 --> 00:35:10.510

The second document was two

00:35:10.550 --> 00:35:11.470

hundred and eighty four

00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:12.731

typewritten pages dealing

00:35:12.751 --> 00:35:13.931

with internal difficulties

00:35:13.972 --> 00:35:15.112

and literary criticism.

00:35:15.692 --> 00:35:16.893

This document examined the

00:35:16.933 --> 00:35:17.873

likelihood that Joseph

00:35:17.893 --> 00:35:18.794

Smith was actually the

00:35:18.914 --> 00:35:20.094

author of the foundational

00:35:20.134 --> 00:35:21.395

text rather than the

00:35:21.435 --> 00:35:22.715

translator of an ancient

00:35:22.755 --> 00:35:23.916

record written by ancient

00:35:23.936 --> 00:35:25.237

Americans on gold plates,

00:35:25.337 --> 00:35:26.077

as Smith claimed.

00:35:26.899 --> 00:35:28.160

In addition to considering

00:35:28.220 --> 00:35:29.741

Smith's active imagination

00:35:29.821 --> 00:35:31.462

and interest in ancient Americans,

00:35:31.903 --> 00:35:33.163

Roberts cited possible

00:35:33.223 --> 00:35:34.684

source material such as the

00:35:34.744 --> 00:35:37.226

Bible and A View of the Hebrews,

00:35:37.667 --> 00:35:38.927

a popular and widely

00:35:38.967 --> 00:35:40.348

distributed book published

00:35:40.408 --> 00:35:41.749

in a county adjacent to

00:35:41.809 --> 00:35:43.531

Smith's in eighteen twenty three,

00:35:44.031 --> 00:35:45.712

seven years before the Book

00:35:45.732 --> 00:35:46.793

of Mormon was published.

00:35:47.133 --> 00:35:48.174

In this second document,

00:35:48.194 --> 00:35:49.374

Roberts criticized the Book

00:35:49.394 --> 00:35:50.575

of Mormon stories as being

00:35:50.675 --> 00:35:51.996

overly miraculous and that

00:35:52.016 --> 00:35:53.016

the characters as

00:35:53.116 --> 00:35:54.998

archetypal and overly simplistic.

00:35:55.478 --> 00:35:56.218

He questioned,

00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:58.019

do we have here a great

00:35:58.059 --> 00:35:59.760

historical document or only

00:35:59.780 --> 00:36:01.101

a wonder tale told by an

00:36:01.201 --> 00:36:02.942

undeveloped mind living in

00:36:02.962 --> 00:36:04.483

a period and an environment

00:36:04.663 --> 00:36:06.184

where the miraculous in history

00:36:06.704 --> 00:36:07.544

is accepted without

00:36:07.584 --> 00:36:08.985

limitations and is supposed

00:36:09.025 --> 00:36:09.885

to account for all

00:36:09.985 --> 00:36:12.006

inconsistencies and lapses

00:36:12.026 --> 00:36:12.866

that challenge human

00:36:12.906 --> 00:36:14.127

credulity in the thought

00:36:14.507 --> 00:36:17.127

and in the easy philosophy

00:36:17.388 --> 00:36:19.168

that all things are possible with God.

00:36:20.188 --> 00:36:21.209

The record is mixed on

00:36:21.249 --> 00:36:22.169

whether or not a copy of

00:36:22.189 --> 00:36:23.310

this document was presented

00:36:23.330 --> 00:36:24.430

to church authorities and

00:36:24.470 --> 00:36:25.610

is unlikely that he

00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:27.691

presented the material orally.

00:36:28.879 --> 00:36:29.780

Related to the second

00:36:29.820 --> 00:36:30.940

document was a third one

00:36:30.981 --> 00:36:31.981

called A Parallel.

00:36:32.161 --> 00:36:34.443

It was created by Roberts in

00:36:34.523 --> 00:36:35.564

as a way to summarize a

00:36:35.604 --> 00:36:36.865

portion of the second paper

00:36:36.965 --> 00:36:38.025

as he wrestled with whether

00:36:38.046 --> 00:36:38.986

or not to present his

00:36:39.026 --> 00:36:40.787

second study to church officials.

00:36:41.308 --> 00:36:42.869

It was eighteen typed pages

00:36:43.169 --> 00:36:44.230

showing the uncanny

00:36:44.270 --> 00:36:45.291

similarities between the

00:36:45.311 --> 00:36:47.052

Book of Mormon and a view of the Hebrews.

00:36:47.718 --> 00:36:48.618

A few of the mentioned

00:36:48.658 --> 00:36:49.899

similarities include the

00:36:49.939 --> 00:36:51.039

migration of a group of

00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:51.899

Jewish people from

00:36:51.959 --> 00:36:52.840

Jerusalem to the

00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:55.221

uninhabited American continent by boat,

00:36:55.741 --> 00:36:57.121

a single common Hebrew

00:36:57.161 --> 00:36:58.402

linguistic and ancestral

00:36:58.482 --> 00:37:00.162

origin for all Native Americans,

00:37:00.702 --> 00:37:01.923

a division of those people

00:37:01.983 --> 00:37:03.984

into civilized and uncivilized groups,

00:37:04.424 --> 00:37:05.864

inspired prophets teaching

00:37:05.964 --> 00:37:07.385

a monotheistic religion,

00:37:07.825 --> 00:37:09.185

wars between the two groups

00:37:09.245 --> 00:37:10.186

resulting in the total

00:37:10.246 --> 00:37:12.006

annihilation of the civilized portion,

00:37:12.406 --> 00:37:13.667

and a buried book telling

00:37:13.687 --> 00:37:14.827

their history written in a

00:37:14.867 --> 00:37:16.648

form of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

00:37:17.309 --> 00:37:18.670

This third document was

00:37:18.730 --> 00:37:19.791

known to have been given to

00:37:19.831 --> 00:37:21.952

at least one apostle, Richard R. Lyman,

00:37:22.472 --> 00:37:23.453

and it was copied and

00:37:23.513 --> 00:37:24.653

surreptitiously passed

00:37:24.694 --> 00:37:26.034

around intellectual circles

00:37:26.074 --> 00:37:27.075

between nineteen twenty

00:37:27.115 --> 00:37:28.636

seven and nineteen eighty

00:37:28.676 --> 00:37:29.556

five when the D.H.

00:37:29.596 --> 00:37:30.497

Roberts papers were

00:37:30.557 --> 00:37:31.898

published in their entirety.

00:37:32.931 --> 00:37:33.571

Through the years,

00:37:33.651 --> 00:37:34.572

there were whispers of the

00:37:34.592 --> 00:37:36.632

document's information, pieces of B.H.

00:37:36.673 --> 00:37:38.633

Roberts' studies circulated among students,

00:37:38.973 --> 00:37:40.054

with readers being told to

00:37:40.094 --> 00:37:41.234

destroy them and to keep

00:37:41.254 --> 00:37:41.955

their mouths shut.

00:37:42.695 --> 00:37:44.056

As one grandson of a general

00:37:44.076 --> 00:37:44.956

authority recalled,

00:37:45.056 --> 00:37:46.136

there were rumors of a book

00:37:46.176 --> 00:37:47.237

written by Roberts that,

00:37:47.397 --> 00:37:48.337

if it's ever published,

00:37:48.477 --> 00:37:50.078

will just blow things sky high.

00:37:50.958 --> 00:37:52.220

But Robert's findings stayed

00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:54.022

in the realm of rumor for fifty years,

00:37:54.082 --> 00:37:55.424

and apparently most people

00:37:55.444 --> 00:37:56.505

complied with the order to

00:37:56.525 --> 00:37:57.446

keep quiet about it.

00:37:57.887 --> 00:37:58.107

Yet,

00:37:58.207 --> 00:37:59.569

those rumors ensured that the

00:37:59.589 --> 00:38:01.371

dangerous secret retained its power.

00:38:01.812 --> 00:38:03.033

The three documents found

00:38:03.073 --> 00:38:04.555

new life in the nineteen seventies,

00:38:04.855 --> 00:38:05.416

when the somewhat

00:38:05.456 --> 00:38:06.638

disillusioned son of one of

00:38:06.658 --> 00:38:08.520

the apostles who attended the meetings

00:38:08.964 --> 00:38:10.565

went searching and found the papers,

00:38:10.886 --> 00:38:11.887

which the Roberts family

00:38:11.947 --> 00:38:13.488

eventually allowed to be published.

00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:16.191

That background, the meetings, who knew,

00:38:16.451 --> 00:38:17.272

who kept quiet,

00:38:17.592 --> 00:38:18.653

who privately struggled

00:38:18.693 --> 00:38:19.514

with the knowledge of what

00:38:19.554 --> 00:38:20.294

Roberts had written,

00:38:20.695 --> 00:38:21.736

and who kept those rumors

00:38:21.776 --> 00:38:22.756

alive has never been

00:38:22.797 --> 00:38:24.238

examined until the subject

00:38:24.338 --> 00:38:25.199

of this thesis.

00:38:25.884 --> 00:38:26.264

So anyway,

00:38:26.304 --> 00:38:28.746

that's where I was when I met with,

00:38:28.866 --> 00:38:31.888

when we visited last summer

00:38:31.988 --> 00:38:33.148

and I was just kind of like,

00:38:33.248 --> 00:38:34.749

I'm done with the church culture.

00:38:34.789 --> 00:38:36.470

I don't think that I can go

00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:37.271

back to church.

00:38:37.411 --> 00:38:38.511

I just never did go back to

00:38:38.551 --> 00:38:39.712

church after the pandemic.

00:38:39.872 --> 00:38:43.154

They asked me to be a Relief

00:38:43.174 --> 00:38:44.066

Society teacher again

00:38:44.447 --> 00:38:45.568

I'm not going to teach that

00:38:46.990 --> 00:38:49.773

the policies of how we

00:38:49.793 --> 00:38:52.115

treat LGBTQ people are not right.

00:38:52.176 --> 00:38:53.016

I think you guys are on the

00:38:53.056 --> 00:38:53.937

wrong side of history.

00:38:54.979 --> 00:38:55.819

You got it wrong.

00:38:55.879 --> 00:38:56.719

I think the church got it

00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.200

wrong when they denied

00:38:59.240 --> 00:39:01.621