Juror 18: The Lori Vallow Daybell Trial

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Hello, beautiful humans,

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and welcome to The Midlife Revolution.

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I'm your host, Megan Conner.

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And today I have a really

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exciting guest that I am

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very happy decided to join me.

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Tom Evans, who is juror number eighteen,

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author of the book Money, Power and Sex,

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The Lori Vallow Daybell Trial.

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How are you doing today, Tom?

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I'm doing great.

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How are you?

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I'm great.

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Thanks for coming on.

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I really appreciate the

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opportunity to talk with you.

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Yeah, it's always nice talking to you.

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Yeah.

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So I have read your book.

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I have it right here, actually.

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Everybody should go out and buy it.

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You can see it's well worn.

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I've kind of been through it,

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gone back and forth a lot.

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And I have to say,

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I think my favorite part,

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and this is going to seem kind of weird,

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I think my favorite part is

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chapter eleven,

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where you talk about the

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history of some of the

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different groups in Utah,

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the Mountain Meadows Massacre,

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Porter Rockwell, some of that history.

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I found that part really interesting.

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I'm glad that you included that.

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I'm glad to hear you say that.

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I get conflicting feedback on that.

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Some people love that and

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some people hate that I'm

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talking about it.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well,

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I know that it's a problematic part

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of Mormon history.

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It's a part of Mormon

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history that not a lot of

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people want to talk about.

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And I think I feel the same

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way about that as I do

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about everything that we

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talk about related to this case,

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that having the truth and

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talking about the truth is

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the only way to really heal from it.

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So that's why I'm really

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glad you included it.

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We need to be able to talk about it.

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We need to be able to ask questions.

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So hope for the best.

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Yeah.

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No,

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I want to go all the way back to the

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very beginning before you

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knew who Lori Vallow was.

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Okay.

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And you got called for jury selection.

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I'm sure you never imagined that you

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would be involved in a, you know,

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weeks long trial when you first went in.

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Um, tell us about that first day you,

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you went,

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you first went in and what were

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some of your thoughts as

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the process started to unfold?

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Oh, man.

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I was really confused.

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I didn't really know what was happening.

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I didn't know what case I

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was called in for.

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There were a lot of people.

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I just thought there were a

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lot of jurors for other cases.

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There was a room full of hundreds of us,

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and they were only calling

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certain groups in at a time.

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I think there was a couple

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thousand or more called in.

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But as time went on, I figured it out.

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And then when we finally got

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called into court,

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she was sitting there and I

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knew who she was.

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I didn't know much about the case,

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but I knew that much.

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Yeah.

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So during jury selection,

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when they were asking

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questions about your

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fitness for the selection process,

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what kind of questions

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stand out to you as things

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that you look back on now and say, oh,

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that's why they asked me that?

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Yeah.

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Mostly they were asking

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about what we knew and I

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didn't know anything.

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You know,

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I knew the kids had been killed

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Not really.

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It was pretty straightforward.

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What we knew,

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it wasn't a death penalty case.

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They didn't have to ask us

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about how we felt about that.

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Like they did in dad's trial.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I didn't get to watch jury selection.

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And in Chad's trial,

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we did get to watch jury selection.

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And I'm just remembering

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John Pryor talking about

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all the glitters is not

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gold and sort of being dramatic that way.

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So they didn't have any of

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those kinds of odd

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questions for your trial?

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No, I don't remember anything like that.

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The defense attorneys in

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Lori's trial were a little

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bit different than John Pryor.

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They had a different approach.

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They were more straightforward.

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They weren't

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They weren't trying to

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ingratiate themselves to

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the jury or anything like Mr. Pryor was.

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Yeah, so that's, I guess,

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the difference between the

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two is that I think John

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Pryor was sort of a performer.

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He tried to be really charismatic.

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And so you're saying

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Laurie's attorneys were not

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like that at all.

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No, and he tried.

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He really tried to connect to the jury,

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but, you know, he failed at that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So you didn't know anything

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about the case other than

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that the children had been

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found deceased.

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And you didn't get any clues

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during jury selection about

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what the case was going to be.

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And so it wasn't until you

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walked into the courtroom and saw Lori.

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Yeah.

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That's when I, as I remember, I mean,

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there must have been,

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I think there were questionnaires,

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and I don't really remember

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everything that was on the

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questionnaires.

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And I can't say for sure

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that it was that moment

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when I knew that's what the case was.

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It's such a blur looking back on all that.

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Things happened in a way so slow,

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like there was a lot of

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sitting around and waiting

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for anything to happen.

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But in another way,

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they happened so fast that

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I wasn't really...

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I guess I had other things

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going on in my life,

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but I wasn't focusing on

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what I was there for until

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I actually did realize.

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Yeah.

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So what was that moment?

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When did you finally realize

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what you were going to be

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getting yourself into?

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Well,

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when I realized for sure is when I

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walked in the courtroom and

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she was sitting there.

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And if I had known before,

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it hadn't really sunk in.

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But when I walked in that courtroom,

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I can't forget that part of it.

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I walked in that courtroom

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and she was sitting there

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and the weight of the whole

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thing hit me right at that moment.

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And it's really,

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it was a bizarre moment in my life.

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I'll never forget.

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I just felt a darkness and a heaviness.

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It's hard to describe.

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Yeah.

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So it's one thing to

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know that the children died,

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it's another thing to have

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that realization come to

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you that you're going to be

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a finder of fact in this

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case where children have been killed.

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To be confronted with that.

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And I'm not sure if the

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heaviness was due to the

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responsibility that I was

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going to have if I were

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selected or something more than that.

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So when you walked into the

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courtroom that first day

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and she was sitting there,

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was that the day of opening statements?

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No, that was during jury selection.

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That was when we went into

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the courtroom to get

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questioned by the judge the first time.

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I didn't realize that she

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was there for jury selection.

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That's interesting.

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I noticed her and I noticed

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Ray Hermosillo and I had no

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idea who he was at the time.

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Yeah.

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But, you know, he's a noticeable guy.

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He was sitting there.

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Yeah.

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And he was there every day of the trial.

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So.

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Yeah.

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So then Judge Boyce questioned you.

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Yeah.

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And what was that like?

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It was really straightforward.

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It was, you know,

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what do you know about the case?

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Is this going to be a hardship for you?

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Mostly his questions were about hardship,

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I think.

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Yeah.

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We were brought in in groups

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of like forty or so people

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and they would just go down

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the line questioning each

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of us whether or not it was a hardship.

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And I didn't realize it at the time,

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but the judge actually

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selects the jurors up to a

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point and then it's handed

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over to the attorneys.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Because the judge does have

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to excuse people who for

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whom it is going to be a hardship.

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You know,

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if you're a single mom and you're

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the sole breadwinner,

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getting paid six dollars a

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day isn't going to cut it

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for a six week trial.

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Yeah.

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And there was one

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interesting one in Chad's trial.

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because I sat there and I

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watched the whole jury selection thing.

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That was really cool for me

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to be on the other side

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watching that and hearing

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some of the reasons people

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gave for hardships.

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There was one lady who said

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she wouldn't be able to

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make lunch for her husband.

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And everybody kind of got a

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chuckle about that at first.

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But as she went on and

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talked about it and was questioned more,

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I came to realize, you know,

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this actually is a hardship

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for this lady.

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This is a really important thing for her.

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If she can't make lunch for her husband,

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she's not going to be able

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to focus on this trial.

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So hardship is different for everybody.

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Yeah, that's so true.

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And thank you for saying that.

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Cause I do remember,

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I do remember that lady.

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I remembered lots of people

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commenting on that.

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And it's,

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it's really interesting of you to say,

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you know,

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as she went on talking that you

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realized it really was a

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hardship for her because on paper,

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anybody seeing that on paper would go, no,

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that's ridiculous.

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You can't get dismissed for that.

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You know?

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And I also,

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one of the reasons I wanted to

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talk to you too is because

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I think there's this

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sort of stigma misperception

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that you're not getting

00:09:14.545 --> 00:09:15.946

judged by a jury of your peers.

00:09:15.966 --> 00:09:17.247

You're getting judged by a

00:09:17.307 --> 00:09:18.407

jury of people who couldn't

00:09:18.427 --> 00:09:19.388

get out of jury duty.

00:09:19.608 --> 00:09:19.948

You know,

00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:22.030

we hear those snarky comments all

00:09:22.070 --> 00:09:22.610

of the time.

00:09:23.371 --> 00:09:25.352

Can you talk about a little

00:09:25.372 --> 00:09:26.693

bit about your feelings

00:09:26.753 --> 00:09:27.674

about now that you've

00:09:27.754 --> 00:09:29.816

served on this massive case?

00:09:30.020 --> 00:09:30.092

Um,

00:09:30.132 --> 00:09:32.074

how do you feel now about jury service?

00:09:32.094 --> 00:09:32.434

Would you,

00:09:32.634 --> 00:09:34.115

would you try to get out of jury

00:09:34.135 --> 00:09:36.057

duty again or would you serve?

00:09:36.437 --> 00:09:36.809

Um,

00:09:37.817 --> 00:09:38.797

I would try to get out of it

00:09:38.817 --> 00:09:39.518

and then I would serve.

00:09:39.538 --> 00:09:42.078

That's kind of how that goes, I think,

00:09:42.118 --> 00:09:42.799

for most people.

00:09:44.319 --> 00:09:48.821

But I think the jurors on

00:09:48.921 --> 00:09:51.101

both trials were top notch.

00:09:51.161 --> 00:09:52.002

They were good people.

00:09:52.964 --> 00:09:54.104

They took it seriously.

00:09:54.944 --> 00:09:56.005

They put the work in.

00:09:56.445 --> 00:09:57.105

It's a lot of work.

00:09:57.905 --> 00:09:59.546

It's the time you have to

00:09:59.586 --> 00:10:01.526

sit there and listen to

00:10:01.566 --> 00:10:03.107

everything and try to pay attention.

00:10:04.313 --> 00:10:05.454

It takes a lot.

00:10:05.654 --> 00:10:06.955

It takes a toll on you.

00:10:07.436 --> 00:10:10.518

And I really think in both trials,

00:10:12.019 --> 00:10:13.120

everybody was right on it

00:10:13.140 --> 00:10:14.441

and doing everything they

00:10:14.461 --> 00:10:16.383

could to understand,

00:10:16.403 --> 00:10:17.684

try to make sense of it all

00:10:18.464 --> 00:10:20.045

and come to the right conclusions.

00:10:20.726 --> 00:10:22.227

Yeah, that's so great.

00:10:22.327 --> 00:10:25.710

I really appreciated going

00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:26.530

to Chad's trial.

00:10:26.590 --> 00:10:27.971

I was only there for one day,

00:10:28.031 --> 00:10:29.453

but I appreciated how...

00:10:31.447 --> 00:10:33.689

just involved the jurors seemed to be.

00:10:33.729 --> 00:10:35.610

They were paying rapt attention.

00:10:35.650 --> 00:10:37.152

Many of them were taking notes.

00:10:37.352 --> 00:10:39.534

And I really appreciated that.

00:10:40.114 --> 00:10:42.336

And I can't tell you how

00:10:42.376 --> 00:10:43.557

much I appreciate the

00:10:43.617 --> 00:10:45.139

service of the jury in both

00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:45.879

of these cases,

00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:47.601

because I recognize what a

00:10:47.661 --> 00:10:49.602

huge toll it is and has

00:10:49.622 --> 00:10:50.803

been for all of you.

00:10:51.664 --> 00:10:55.427

And so much is resting on that.

00:10:55.568 --> 00:10:57.069

And I'm just so grateful for

00:10:58.327 --> 00:10:59.687

all of the people who served

00:10:59.747 --> 00:11:01.068

for their intelligence and

00:11:01.088 --> 00:11:03.508

for their willingness to be

00:11:03.548 --> 00:11:04.468

totally engaged.

00:11:04.548 --> 00:11:05.569

It's just,

00:11:05.609 --> 00:11:07.813

words can't even describe my

00:11:07.853 --> 00:11:08.673

gratitude for that.

00:11:08.773 --> 00:11:09.033

So.

00:11:09.914 --> 00:11:10.354

Mine too.

00:11:10.454 --> 00:11:11.414

I mean, I really,

00:11:12.314 --> 00:11:13.354

it was driven home to me.

00:11:13.454 --> 00:11:14.575

I hadn't really thought

00:11:14.595 --> 00:11:15.535

about it a whole lot,

00:11:15.615 --> 00:11:18.135

but how important the jury system is.

00:11:18.635 --> 00:11:19.696

And Judge Boyce told me,

00:11:19.996 --> 00:11:21.416

I hadn't really thought about this either,

00:11:21.456 --> 00:11:23.136

but he told me once that

00:11:23.376 --> 00:11:24.337

we're the only country that

00:11:24.577 --> 00:11:25.937

has a jury and does it this way.

00:11:27.213 --> 00:11:28.014

Yeah.

00:11:28.334 --> 00:11:28.414

Yeah.

00:11:28.434 --> 00:11:29.515

I didn't really realize that,

00:11:29.535 --> 00:11:32.056

but that is an important thing.

00:11:32.156 --> 00:11:33.177

And, you know,

00:11:33.197 --> 00:11:33.837

we have to have a lot of

00:11:33.857 --> 00:11:35.418

faith in our jurors to be

00:11:35.458 --> 00:11:36.679

able to come up with the right decisions.

00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:38.420

Yeah, we do.

00:11:38.500 --> 00:11:39.721

And that's what's hard, I think,

00:11:39.761 --> 00:11:42.102

is because especially now

00:11:42.142 --> 00:11:43.363

our country is so divided

00:11:43.783 --> 00:11:45.064

and in so many ways,

00:11:45.164 --> 00:11:46.164

people have kind of

00:11:46.224 --> 00:11:48.146

polarized themselves into

00:11:48.166 --> 00:11:49.586

an us and them mentality in

00:11:49.606 --> 00:11:50.267

a lot of ways.

00:11:50.747 --> 00:11:52.328

And I think that the jury

00:11:52.368 --> 00:11:54.569

system reminds us that

00:11:54.589 --> 00:11:55.450

we're all the same.

00:11:56.451 --> 00:11:59.472

We all have loved ones that we care about,

00:11:59.572 --> 00:12:01.372

and we all just want to live happy,

00:12:01.412 --> 00:12:02.252

peaceful lives.

00:12:02.292 --> 00:12:03.332

And regardless what our

00:12:03.892 --> 00:12:04.873

religious beliefs are,

00:12:04.913 --> 00:12:05.993

political beliefs are,

00:12:06.113 --> 00:12:06.933

at the end of the day,

00:12:06.953 --> 00:12:07.973

we're human beings and

00:12:08.013 --> 00:12:09.053

we're in this together.

00:12:09.853 --> 00:12:12.074

And serving on a jury,

00:12:12.254 --> 00:12:14.234

I think you were all from

00:12:14.274 --> 00:12:15.455

different walks of life and

00:12:15.495 --> 00:12:16.855

different backgrounds and everything,

00:12:16.875 --> 00:12:17.875

but then you had to come

00:12:17.915 --> 00:12:20.255

together as finders of fact

00:12:20.535 --> 00:12:21.876

to reach a conclusion and

00:12:21.896 --> 00:12:23.196

to be united in that.

00:12:24.431 --> 00:12:25.411

Yeah, that was really,

00:12:25.612 --> 00:12:26.392

it's one of the silver

00:12:26.432 --> 00:12:27.492

linings to this whole thing

00:12:27.532 --> 00:12:28.653

is the people that I met

00:12:28.713 --> 00:12:29.873

and I've gotten to know.

00:12:30.634 --> 00:12:32.214

I have my jury family now, you know,

00:12:32.234 --> 00:12:33.155

there's three or four of us

00:12:33.175 --> 00:12:35.956

that were great friends and

00:12:35.976 --> 00:12:37.476

we spent a lot of time together.

00:12:37.616 --> 00:12:38.537

Yeah, that's amazing.

00:12:39.577 --> 00:12:39.797

Yeah.

00:12:39.877 --> 00:12:41.678

So rewinding again, just a little bit,

00:12:42.009 --> 00:12:44.089

as the judge was asking you questions,

00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:45.790

were you thinking to

00:12:45.830 --> 00:12:47.391

yourself that you hope they

00:12:47.411 --> 00:12:48.071

didn't pick you?

00:12:48.091 --> 00:12:50.372

Oh, yeah, definitely.

00:12:50.822 --> 00:12:52.803

I had, you know, I had my old,

00:12:52.883 --> 00:12:54.124

it was spring and I had a

00:12:54.184 --> 00:12:55.305

lot of things planned,

00:12:56.046 --> 00:12:58.107

a lot of work to do and fun,

00:12:58.627 --> 00:12:59.508

fun things to go do.

00:12:59.568 --> 00:13:01.969

And I had that next two

00:13:02.009 --> 00:13:04.271

months planned already and, you know,

00:13:04.291 --> 00:13:05.272

having to serve on the jury

00:13:05.292 --> 00:13:06.352

was going to change all that.

00:13:06.833 --> 00:13:07.093

Yeah.

00:13:07.153 --> 00:13:08.814

Do you mind sharing with us what, what,

00:13:08.974 --> 00:13:10.575

what were those plans for two months?

00:13:11.296 --> 00:13:13.457

Oh, it's when I do most of my work,

00:13:13.477 --> 00:13:14.778

we have some houses that,

00:13:15.768 --> 00:13:16.649

that we maintain.

00:13:16.949 --> 00:13:18.570

And, you know, so I have fences,

00:13:19.050 --> 00:13:21.071

houses to paint, stuff like that.

00:13:21.712 --> 00:13:23.393

And then we usually go to

00:13:23.433 --> 00:13:24.553

Alaska in the summertime.

00:13:24.593 --> 00:13:25.974

So we're looking forward to that.

00:13:26.715 --> 00:13:27.995

Had to put that off a little bit.

00:13:28.616 --> 00:13:28.956

Yeah.

00:13:29.736 --> 00:13:30.917

And then even when the trial ended,

00:13:30.957 --> 00:13:33.699

I was so involved with it at that point.

00:13:33.739 --> 00:13:34.819

I didn't want to just let it go.

00:13:34.899 --> 00:13:35.580

I wanted to go to the

00:13:35.660 --> 00:13:37.861

sentencing and I had a lot

00:13:37.881 --> 00:13:38.922

of people I wanted to talk to.

00:13:38.962 --> 00:13:39.102

Yeah.

00:13:41.063 --> 00:13:42.224

You did finally get to go to

00:13:42.264 --> 00:13:42.924

Alaska though.

00:13:43.825 --> 00:13:44.345

Yes.

00:13:44.405 --> 00:13:44.525

Yep.

00:13:45.102 --> 00:13:47.205

It wasn't until just recently, right?

00:13:48.566 --> 00:13:50.388

We went, where did we go?

00:13:51.209 --> 00:13:54.393

It was after the sentencing, late August.

00:13:55.845 --> 00:13:59.767

I think it was right after the sentencing.

00:13:59.787 --> 00:13:59.867

Yeah.

00:13:59.887 --> 00:14:01.008

So you got delayed a little bit,

00:14:01.028 --> 00:14:02.409

but I'm glad you did get to go.

00:14:02.429 --> 00:14:02.649

Yeah.

00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:04.710

Yeah.

00:14:04.770 --> 00:14:06.571

So the other thing that I

00:14:06.611 --> 00:14:07.732

want to talk about just a

00:14:07.752 --> 00:14:08.773

little bit is kind of your

00:14:08.833 --> 00:14:10.614

day-to-day in the process.

00:14:10.894 --> 00:14:12.515

I know that you were not

00:14:12.555 --> 00:14:13.636

allowed to talk to the

00:14:13.676 --> 00:14:16.097

other jurors about the case

00:14:16.958 --> 00:14:18.398

while the trial was going on.

00:14:18.979 --> 00:14:19.399

Right.

00:14:21.128 --> 00:14:22.569

I'm so curious about how

00:14:22.629 --> 00:14:23.749

hard that must have been

00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:26.670

because you would go out to

00:14:26.730 --> 00:14:28.431

your lunch break after we

00:14:28.471 --> 00:14:30.452

had just heard some either

00:14:30.512 --> 00:14:32.332

really heavy testimony or

00:14:32.933 --> 00:14:33.653

like the day that the

00:14:33.733 --> 00:14:35.434

autopsy pictures were shown

00:14:35.654 --> 00:14:37.594

or there was a bombshell

00:14:37.614 --> 00:14:39.075

that dropped and then lunch break.

00:14:39.135 --> 00:14:41.456

So how did you handle that?

00:14:42.956 --> 00:14:44.177

It wasn't really hard.

00:14:45.178 --> 00:14:46.619

uh, not to talk about the case.

00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:48.401

Like I know for me,

00:14:48.481 --> 00:14:49.522

I had a lot of questions.

00:14:50.082 --> 00:14:51.704

I was so behind the curve

00:14:51.744 --> 00:14:53.565

the whole time it seemed like,

00:14:53.605 --> 00:14:54.306

and I think everybody

00:14:54.366 --> 00:14:55.226

must've felt the same way.

00:14:55.246 --> 00:14:56.768

There was so much to try to absorb.

00:14:57.208 --> 00:14:58.449

Yeah.

00:14:58.489 --> 00:14:59.110

That wasn't hard,

00:14:59.130 --> 00:15:00.251

but the emotional side of it,

00:15:00.291 --> 00:15:00.971

I think was hard.

00:15:01.792 --> 00:15:02.993

You know, when,

00:15:03.193 --> 00:15:04.614

when something really tough

00:15:04.734 --> 00:15:05.995

happened and then we would

00:15:06.015 --> 00:15:09.898

go to lunch or whatever, have a break, um,

00:15:09.918 --> 00:15:10.139

you know,

00:15:10.179 --> 00:15:11.600

some people would break down or,

00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:12.900

you know,

00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:14.542

and we couldn't really talk much

00:15:14.582 --> 00:15:14.882

about it.

00:15:14.902 --> 00:15:17.864

We could console each other and that,

00:15:17.944 --> 00:15:20.126

but couldn't talk about the case.

00:15:20.146 --> 00:15:22.168

And that was really going to

00:15:22.188 --> 00:15:23.348

Chad's trial was such a

00:15:23.369 --> 00:15:24.269

different experience for me.

00:15:24.289 --> 00:15:25.450

And I got to ask all the

00:15:25.470 --> 00:15:27.091

questions I wanted and talk to everybody.

00:15:27.151 --> 00:15:29.653

And that felt good.

00:15:30.194 --> 00:15:30.414

Yeah.

00:15:30.554 --> 00:15:32.015

You can decompress a little bit.

00:15:33.236 --> 00:15:34.918

What was it like going home at the end of,

00:15:35.238 --> 00:15:36.078

at the end of the day,

00:15:36.138 --> 00:15:37.279

you also couldn't talk to

00:15:37.299 --> 00:15:38.400

your wife about it really.

00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:38.861

Right.

00:15:39.681 --> 00:15:40.742

Right.

00:15:40.822 --> 00:15:41.062

Yeah.

00:15:41.082 --> 00:15:41.523

It was hard.

00:15:41.703 --> 00:15:41.803

Um,

00:15:42.486 --> 00:15:43.726

We'd have to take the vans

00:15:43.746 --> 00:15:45.326

to our parking lot and then, you know,

00:15:45.346 --> 00:15:46.167

get in the car and go home.

00:15:46.207 --> 00:15:47.647

So it was a little bit of a

00:15:47.687 --> 00:15:48.907

process just getting home.

00:15:50.827 --> 00:15:51.788

But my wife was great.

00:15:52.368 --> 00:15:54.288

She was following the trial

00:15:54.328 --> 00:15:55.088

during the day.

00:15:55.148 --> 00:15:56.969

So she would know what I had

00:15:57.009 --> 00:15:57.829

been through and she was

00:15:57.909 --> 00:15:59.789

always ready with a hug and

00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:01.969

we would go for a hike or whatever.

00:16:02.009 --> 00:16:02.509

And, you know,

00:16:02.529 --> 00:16:03.350

she knew if it had been a

00:16:03.430 --> 00:16:04.430

particularly hard day.

00:16:06.510 --> 00:16:07.290

She was always there.

00:16:07.310 --> 00:16:08.951

Yeah, that's wonderful.

00:16:08.971 --> 00:16:10.411

It was hard not to be able

00:16:10.431 --> 00:16:11.131

to talk about it.

00:16:11.971 --> 00:16:12.692

Yeah.

00:16:13.352 --> 00:16:13.512

You know,

00:16:13.552 --> 00:16:14.833

we both understood the

00:16:14.853 --> 00:16:16.455

responsibility and the

00:16:16.495 --> 00:16:17.335

weight of the thing.

00:16:17.395 --> 00:16:18.777

So we didn't have any

00:16:18.837 --> 00:16:20.318

problem with doing that.

00:16:20.338 --> 00:16:20.538

Yeah.

00:16:21.459 --> 00:16:23.180

So did you do any kind of

00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.243

journaling or anything to

00:16:26.343 --> 00:16:27.383

try and get some of those

00:16:27.424 --> 00:16:28.364

thoughts out of your head

00:16:28.384 --> 00:16:29.165

at the end of the day,

00:16:29.285 --> 00:16:30.386

since you couldn't talk about it?

00:16:31.026 --> 00:16:32.408

I should have, you know,

00:16:32.428 --> 00:16:34.269

I had my notes that I was

00:16:34.309 --> 00:16:35.270

taking during the trial and

00:16:35.310 --> 00:16:36.711

I had all my doodles and

00:16:36.751 --> 00:16:40.554

sketches and it was interesting to me.

00:16:41.235 --> 00:16:41.595

And I,

00:16:41.891 --> 00:16:42.872

didn't realize that I

00:16:42.892 --> 00:16:44.633

wouldn't be able to take that home.

00:16:45.333 --> 00:16:45.553

They,

00:16:45.573 --> 00:16:48.215

they confiscated all of that when it

00:16:48.235 --> 00:16:49.396

was over and shredded them.

00:16:50.156 --> 00:16:50.576

Oh, wow.

00:16:51.057 --> 00:16:52.177

So did you,

00:16:52.217 --> 00:16:53.398

could you take your notes home

00:16:53.438 --> 00:16:54.459

at the end of the day or

00:16:54.499 --> 00:16:55.579

did you have to leave those?

00:16:56.160 --> 00:16:56.440

Okay.

00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:58.561

Yeah, I had to leave them in there.

00:16:58.641 --> 00:16:58.941

Okay.

00:16:59.382 --> 00:17:00.983

So walk us through this process.

00:17:01.003 --> 00:17:02.363

Cause this is curious too.

00:17:02.864 --> 00:17:04.445

You had to go and park at a

00:17:04.485 --> 00:17:05.645

parking lot that was not

00:17:05.725 --> 00:17:06.746

near the courthouse.

00:17:07.887 --> 00:17:09.568

And then you would go,

00:17:09.608 --> 00:17:10.688

can you walk us through how

00:17:10.708 --> 00:17:11.469

all that worked?

00:17:12.003 --> 00:17:13.564

Yeah, that was really kind of weird.

00:17:15.464 --> 00:17:16.905

They said that they would

00:17:17.165 --> 00:17:19.206

let us know the day before

00:17:19.286 --> 00:17:20.787

where we were to meet and

00:17:20.807 --> 00:17:22.587

we would drive to that location and park.

00:17:23.208 --> 00:17:25.428

And then they put us in vans and our two,

00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:27.269

the bailiff,

00:17:29.010 --> 00:17:31.591

Ken and Steve would be our drivers.

00:17:32.171 --> 00:17:32.952

So it was a different

00:17:32.972 --> 00:17:33.952

parking lot every day?

00:17:34.528 --> 00:17:36.149

No, that's what they said,

00:17:36.189 --> 00:17:38.089

but it didn't turn out to be that.

00:17:38.129 --> 00:17:39.370

We changed it a couple times.

00:17:40.550 --> 00:17:41.991

We would go park in a parking lot,

00:17:42.031 --> 00:17:42.771

they would pick us up,

00:17:43.391 --> 00:17:44.312

and we would be driven into

00:17:44.352 --> 00:17:46.453

the basement of the courthouse.

00:17:47.253 --> 00:17:50.474

And then there were armed

00:17:50.514 --> 00:17:51.475

guards the whole time.

00:17:52.195 --> 00:17:52.695

In the beginning,

00:17:52.755 --> 00:17:56.096

I didn't know if they were

00:17:56.116 --> 00:17:56.877

doing that because they

00:17:56.897 --> 00:17:58.197

thought we might be in danger.

00:17:58.898 --> 00:17:59.778

I think it was mostly

00:17:59.798 --> 00:18:00.858

because of the media.

00:18:00.938 --> 00:18:01.739

They were worried about the

00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:02.619

media getting to us.

00:18:03.881 --> 00:18:04.941

At the time, I wasn't sure.

00:18:06.682 --> 00:18:06.903

Yeah,

00:18:06.943 --> 00:18:08.103

I'm sure that would have caused a

00:18:08.143 --> 00:18:09.584

problem if you had to go

00:18:09.684 --> 00:18:11.265

through a media gauntlet

00:18:11.385 --> 00:18:12.586

and somebody fired out a

00:18:12.626 --> 00:18:15.608

question that was something

00:18:15.628 --> 00:18:16.949

you hadn't encountered yet

00:18:16.989 --> 00:18:18.050

or some piece of evidence

00:18:18.070 --> 00:18:18.890

that you didn't know about.

00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:20.451

That could have biased you for sure.

00:18:20.572 --> 00:18:22.973

So I'm glad they did that.

00:18:22.993 --> 00:18:23.954

They did it for that reason.

00:18:24.034 --> 00:18:24.774

And they didn't want to have

00:18:24.794 --> 00:18:25.595

to sequester us.

00:18:25.835 --> 00:18:27.536

And I'm really appreciative of that.

00:18:27.556 --> 00:18:27.656

Yeah.

00:18:27.696 --> 00:18:30.378

If there had been a problem.

00:18:31.356 --> 00:18:32.557

That would have been pretty awful.

00:18:32.897 --> 00:18:34.379

Yeah.

00:18:34.399 --> 00:18:35.940

Because when you're sequestered,

00:18:36.321 --> 00:18:38.603

you can't watch TV or anything like that.

00:18:38.643 --> 00:18:40.104

And they only have like

00:18:40.425 --> 00:18:41.946

approved books that you can read.

00:18:42.006 --> 00:18:43.808

And so that would have been hard.

00:18:44.588 --> 00:18:44.849

Well,

00:18:44.949 --> 00:18:46.230

and as much as I loved the people I

00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:49.053

was serving with, you know,

00:18:49.073 --> 00:18:50.234

it was enough spending

00:18:50.394 --> 00:18:53.577

eight hours or whatever it was a day.

00:18:53.637 --> 00:18:53.717

Yeah.

00:18:53.777 --> 00:18:53.977

Yeah.

00:18:53.997 --> 00:18:55.359

Spending the nights and everything else,

00:18:55.399 --> 00:18:55.519

too.

00:18:56.109 --> 00:18:57.269

Yeah, I totally get that.

00:18:57.710 --> 00:18:57.890

Yeah.

00:18:57.970 --> 00:18:58.130

So,

00:18:58.470 --> 00:19:00.351

so then you would go through that

00:19:00.591 --> 00:19:01.911

security process.

00:19:02.652 --> 00:19:04.192

You would go and listen to testimony.

00:19:04.212 --> 00:19:05.993

You got a couple of breaks during the day.

00:19:06.433 --> 00:19:07.753

Did they bring food in for

00:19:07.793 --> 00:19:09.234

you for lunchtime every day?

00:19:09.894 --> 00:19:10.074

Yeah,

00:19:10.094 --> 00:19:11.735

they would bring food in from a local

00:19:11.795 --> 00:19:13.136

restaurant every day for lunch.

00:19:13.156 --> 00:19:13.916

So that was nice.

00:19:15.336 --> 00:19:16.157

A lot of snacks.

00:19:16.937 --> 00:19:18.237

It wasn't the healthiest

00:19:18.297 --> 00:19:19.138

period of my life.

00:19:20.678 --> 00:19:21.439

Well, I was going to ask,

00:19:21.479 --> 00:19:22.239

how was the food?

00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:23.619

Was it from good places?

00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.700

Did you get to choose?

00:19:26.471 --> 00:19:27.833

Well, we kind of got to choose,

00:19:27.853 --> 00:19:29.255

but everybody had a different opinion.

00:19:29.295 --> 00:19:32.640

So then I decided to go with them.

00:19:33.621 --> 00:19:35.223

Mostly it was fairly healthy.

00:19:35.364 --> 00:19:37.687

And at one point, um,

00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:40.461

I mentioned to one of the bailiffs that,

00:19:40.661 --> 00:19:42.922

you know, there's no healthy snacks here.

00:19:42.942 --> 00:19:45.083

It's all chips and stuff like that.

00:19:45.103 --> 00:19:46.263

And I was eating it all

00:19:46.283 --> 00:19:46.884

because it's there.

00:19:46.904 --> 00:19:49.365

And you're so miserable and bored.

00:19:49.845 --> 00:19:50.405

And after that,

00:19:50.445 --> 00:19:51.326

they started bringing in

00:19:51.366 --> 00:19:54.267

fruit and things like that.

00:19:54.487 --> 00:19:55.607

Yeah, that's really good.

00:19:56.168 --> 00:19:58.288

I'm curious if the process

00:19:58.529 --> 00:20:01.350

of choosing food and what to eat,

00:20:01.390 --> 00:20:02.930

did it ever make you think, oh,

00:20:02.950 --> 00:20:03.871

that person is going to be

00:20:03.891 --> 00:20:05.191

a problem when we deliberate?

00:20:05.211 --> 00:20:06.572

Yeah.

00:20:07.503 --> 00:20:08.504

There was a little bit of that.

00:20:08.564 --> 00:20:10.065

Maybe there might have been one or two.

00:20:10.085 --> 00:20:10.185

Yeah.

00:20:10.205 --> 00:20:13.028

Yeah, that's interesting.

00:20:13.048 --> 00:20:16.231

I won't tell you more about that.

00:20:16.912 --> 00:20:17.092

Yeah,

00:20:17.112 --> 00:20:19.314

you can tell a lot about a person by

00:20:19.414 --> 00:20:21.716

how malleable they are over

00:20:21.776 --> 00:20:23.638

choosing restaurants and food choices,

00:20:23.658 --> 00:20:24.779

I think.

00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:25.900

Or un-malleable.

00:20:26.707 --> 00:20:27.267

Yeah.

00:20:27.307 --> 00:20:27.487

Yeah.

00:20:27.547 --> 00:20:28.228

Or unmalleable.

00:20:28.268 --> 00:20:28.728

That's right.

00:20:29.668 --> 00:20:29.948

Okay.

00:20:30.008 --> 00:20:30.709

So, I mean,

00:20:30.749 --> 00:20:33.370

it's pretty obvious to everybody,

00:20:33.570 --> 00:20:33.830

you know,

00:20:33.870 --> 00:20:35.330

what was hard about the trial

00:20:35.410 --> 00:20:36.731

and things like that.

00:20:37.911 --> 00:20:39.112

And you wrote your book and

00:20:39.132 --> 00:20:40.052

you did a really thorough

00:20:40.092 --> 00:20:41.633

job of explaining, you know,

00:20:41.673 --> 00:20:42.793

the whole trial and the process.

00:20:42.813 --> 00:20:43.754

So I really recommend

00:20:43.774 --> 00:20:44.734

everybody buy your book and

00:20:44.754 --> 00:20:45.554

read it because it's

00:20:45.574 --> 00:20:47.515

fascinating to go through that.

00:20:47.644 --> 00:20:48.188

or is there anything

00:20:48.208 --> 00:20:50.089

you didn't put in your book or something

00:20:50.489 --> 00:20:51.349

that you've thought about

00:20:51.449 --> 00:20:53.470

since then about the

00:20:53.530 --> 00:20:56.310

experience itself that you want to share?

00:20:56.750 --> 00:20:57.231

Yeah.

00:20:58.432 --> 00:20:58.932

Not really.

00:20:58.952 --> 00:20:59.232

I mean,

00:20:59.292 --> 00:21:00.772

I think I pretty well covered that

00:21:00.812 --> 00:21:01.692

part of it in the book.

00:21:02.272 --> 00:21:03.373

The second book is more

00:21:03.393 --> 00:21:06.472

about new conclusions that I've come to,

00:21:07.073 --> 00:21:09.313

new ideas, more information that I have.

00:21:10.852 --> 00:21:11.052

Yeah,

00:21:11.092 --> 00:21:12.473

that's going to be really interesting

00:21:12.513 --> 00:21:14.994

to see how your perception

00:21:15.034 --> 00:21:17.235

of the case evolved now

00:21:17.275 --> 00:21:18.556

having seen Chad's trial,

00:21:18.576 --> 00:21:19.176

because there was

00:21:19.216 --> 00:21:20.496

information in Chad's trial

00:21:20.516 --> 00:21:21.557

that wasn't available

00:21:21.977 --> 00:21:23.017

during Lori's trial.

00:21:23.678 --> 00:21:26.899

And so I'm curious about that.

00:21:26.939 --> 00:21:29.200

Something really strange to

00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:30.100

me kind of happened.

00:21:31.081 --> 00:21:35.242

And I realized that the

00:21:35.262 --> 00:21:36.703

whole time I sat on that jury,

00:21:37.754 --> 00:21:38.855

And the whole time I was

00:21:38.875 --> 00:21:39.916

writing my first book,

00:21:40.677 --> 00:21:41.958

I was lying to myself.

00:21:42.038 --> 00:21:44.260

I was not allowing myself to

00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:46.142

understand the brutality

00:21:47.163 --> 00:21:48.884

and the horror of all of this.

00:21:49.625 --> 00:21:51.367

And sitting through Chad's trial,

00:21:51.887 --> 00:21:52.648

it came to me.

00:21:52.788 --> 00:21:55.170

It just kind of came over me

00:21:55.931 --> 00:21:57.893

what I was doing, what my brain was doing,

00:21:57.953 --> 00:21:58.333

I guess.

00:21:58.353 --> 00:21:58.433

Yeah.

00:21:59.995 --> 00:22:02.197

And I started to realize when they...

00:22:02.969 --> 00:22:04.571

when they started talking about, you know,

00:22:04.591 --> 00:22:06.012

how Tylee was murdered and

00:22:06.233 --> 00:22:06.993

there was a little bit more

00:22:07.013 --> 00:22:09.476

information there than we had before.

00:22:09.817 --> 00:22:13.220

And I started to realize that I was,

00:22:13.621 --> 00:22:13.821

you know,

00:22:13.841 --> 00:22:15.903

I was trying to make myself

00:22:15.943 --> 00:22:16.884

believe that maybe she had

00:22:16.904 --> 00:22:18.947

been dragged or, you know,

00:22:18.967 --> 00:22:20.609

that the kids really maybe

00:22:20.649 --> 00:22:21.249

didn't know what was

00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:22.671

happening to them or whatever.

00:22:22.691 --> 00:22:24.513

And that's not really the case.

00:22:25.429 --> 00:22:26.570

Yeah, to be honest with you,

00:22:26.590 --> 00:22:27.870

it was the same for me too.

00:22:29.211 --> 00:22:30.191

After Lori's trial,

00:22:30.452 --> 00:22:32.993

I think I was doing the same thing.

00:22:33.053 --> 00:22:35.434

I wanted to believe that just like you,

00:22:35.454 --> 00:22:36.174

that the kids had been

00:22:36.194 --> 00:22:38.055

drugged and that they

00:22:38.115 --> 00:22:40.977

weren't present in their

00:22:41.017 --> 00:22:43.138

body or their mind when the

00:22:43.158 --> 00:22:44.278

worst was happening.

00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:46.439

But I think you're right at Chad's trial.

00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:48.500

It also forced me to think

00:22:48.541 --> 00:22:51.582

about how brutal it was and

00:22:51.642 --> 00:22:53.543

how horrific it

00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:56.380

it was and you know that

00:22:57.061 --> 00:22:58.282

it's it's interesting that

00:22:58.662 --> 00:23:00.083

we as human beings we do

00:23:00.103 --> 00:23:01.664

that a lot we dissociate a

00:23:01.684 --> 00:23:02.425

little bit from

00:23:03.006 --> 00:23:04.167

the reality of things in

00:23:04.207 --> 00:23:05.867

order to protect ourselves

00:23:05.907 --> 00:23:07.268

from having to face the

00:23:07.308 --> 00:23:09.329

difficult emotions that

00:23:09.389 --> 00:23:11.950

come up when we realize what reality is.

00:23:12.770 --> 00:23:13.991

And that's actually a

00:23:14.051 --> 00:23:15.211

process I've been going

00:23:15.231 --> 00:23:16.552

through my whole life, you know?

00:23:17.772 --> 00:23:19.633

So I recognize it when it's happening now,

00:23:19.933 --> 00:23:21.314

but it doesn't make it any easier,

00:23:21.714 --> 00:23:21.954

you know?

00:23:22.495 --> 00:23:23.215

You don't even know it's

00:23:23.255 --> 00:23:24.675

happening to you when you're, well,

00:23:24.695 --> 00:23:25.776

you're doing it to yourself,

00:23:26.236 --> 00:23:27.717

but you don't realize it.

00:23:27.777 --> 00:23:28.897

Yeah.

00:23:28.957 --> 00:23:29.618

Yeah.

00:23:29.638 --> 00:23:30.498

That's so interesting.

00:23:30.558 --> 00:23:31.478

Thank you for saying that.

00:23:32.761 --> 00:23:33.841

Now I'm going to have to get

00:23:33.881 --> 00:23:34.841

my train of thought back

00:23:34.861 --> 00:23:35.922

because that knocked it off.

00:23:35.962 --> 00:23:38.102

Yeah, sorry about that.

00:23:38.122 --> 00:23:38.642

No, it's okay.

00:23:39.022 --> 00:23:39.783

This is so good.

00:23:39.863 --> 00:23:43.163

It's so good for me to hear

00:23:43.183 --> 00:23:45.644

that somebody else is

00:23:45.684 --> 00:23:46.904

having the same experience

00:23:46.924 --> 00:23:49.445

and going through the same

00:23:49.485 --> 00:23:50.785

process of trying to

00:23:50.945 --> 00:23:52.625

understand the case and

00:23:52.705 --> 00:23:54.106

process the emotions of it.

00:23:54.786 --> 00:23:57.026

And even now, like so many years later,

00:23:58.406 --> 00:23:59.287

I just don't think there's

00:23:59.307 --> 00:24:00.507

ever going to be a time when

00:24:02.201 --> 00:24:03.742

when it's not emotional for me,

00:24:04.563 --> 00:24:06.304

but I think that's how it should be,

00:24:06.644 --> 00:24:06.904

you know?

00:24:07.464 --> 00:24:08.725

Yeah.

00:24:09.325 --> 00:24:10.746

I think you're right.

00:24:10.886 --> 00:24:12.748

I realized that, you know,

00:24:12.768 --> 00:24:13.788

I sat through a whole trial

00:24:13.808 --> 00:24:15.589

and I wrote a whole book and, you know,

00:24:15.769 --> 00:24:17.490

I was not being honest with

00:24:17.530 --> 00:24:18.631

myself that whole time.

00:24:19.972 --> 00:24:21.913

And, you know, I,

00:24:22.053 --> 00:24:24.575

I think at some point what

00:24:24.595 --> 00:24:25.355

you're going through,

00:24:25.375 --> 00:24:26.496

you have to allow that to

00:24:26.516 --> 00:24:29.298

happen and let it in.

00:24:30.098 --> 00:24:30.839

Yeah.

00:24:30.859 --> 00:24:31.319

Deal with it.

00:24:31.999 --> 00:24:32.599

Absolutely.

00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:33.920

It is.

00:24:33.978 --> 00:24:34.793

we can't really

00:24:34.853 --> 00:24:37.873

heal from from emotions

00:24:37.913 --> 00:24:40.674

that we can't name and we can't express,

00:24:41.134 --> 00:24:41.434

you know.

00:24:42.074 --> 00:24:46.715

And so the reality of what

00:24:46.755 --> 00:24:49.576

happened to those kids and

00:24:49.616 --> 00:24:50.516

the brutality of it,

00:24:50.576 --> 00:24:52.077

it's it's not just grief.

00:24:52.497 --> 00:24:53.737

There's a component to it

00:24:53.777 --> 00:24:55.078

that is different, I think,

00:24:55.118 --> 00:24:55.918

than anything else.

00:24:57.265 --> 00:24:57.905

For me,

00:24:59.306 --> 00:25:02.268

there's this rage and anger about

00:25:02.348 --> 00:25:05.183

it that the very people who

00:25:05.243 --> 00:25:07.104

are supposed to care for

00:25:07.124 --> 00:25:09.205

those children were capable of that.

00:25:09.985 --> 00:25:12.046

That's the hardest thing to understand.

00:25:12.286 --> 00:25:14.207

And the most horrific part

00:25:14.247 --> 00:25:15.388

of this whole thing is

00:25:16.549 --> 00:25:17.549

allowing yourself to

00:25:17.609 --> 00:25:20.671

realize that that's the truth.

00:25:20.691 --> 00:25:21.251

These people...

00:25:22.185 --> 00:25:23.386

The ones who, you know,

00:25:23.586 --> 00:25:24.467

that's all you want to do

00:25:24.607 --> 00:25:25.287

for your children is

00:25:25.327 --> 00:25:28.910

protect them from everything bad.

00:25:29.370 --> 00:25:32.832

And they did everything bad and horrible.

00:25:33.033 --> 00:25:34.514

And the things that Chad

00:25:34.554 --> 00:25:35.594

said leading up to it,

00:25:36.695 --> 00:25:37.776

make the kids scream and

00:25:37.836 --> 00:25:38.737

all that kind of stuff.

00:25:38.997 --> 00:25:40.558

You know, when I heard that the first time,

00:25:40.598 --> 00:25:41.719

I guess I didn't really hear it.

00:25:42.619 --> 00:25:44.160

I didn't allow that.

00:25:44.601 --> 00:25:46.282

And now I have.

00:25:47.825 --> 00:25:48.145

Yeah.

00:25:48.265 --> 00:25:49.325

And for me, too,

00:25:49.345 --> 00:25:51.146

when I first heard those texts,

00:25:51.866 --> 00:25:52.706

I sort of made this

00:25:52.746 --> 00:25:55.107

assumption that it was metaphorical,

00:25:55.627 --> 00:25:55.987

you know,

00:25:56.507 --> 00:25:57.708

that they were sort of playing

00:25:57.748 --> 00:25:59.168

in this fantasy land and

00:25:59.188 --> 00:26:00.568

that it that it wasn't real.

00:26:00.909 --> 00:26:02.949

But we found out later that it was real.

00:26:02.989 --> 00:26:05.650

That is what they intended.

00:26:05.670 --> 00:26:07.190

So as I'm sitting through Chad's trial,

00:26:07.230 --> 00:26:08.351

I'm sitting, you know,

00:26:08.391 --> 00:26:09.391

ten or fifteen feet away

00:26:09.411 --> 00:26:10.691

from him every single day

00:26:11.311 --> 00:26:12.092

just watching him.

00:26:13.100 --> 00:26:13.440

I don't know,

00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:14.581

something about him seemed to

00:26:14.641 --> 00:26:16.641

change in my mind as I was

00:26:16.701 --> 00:26:17.942

realizing these things.

00:26:19.162 --> 00:26:21.382

I first saw just some boring

00:26:21.402 --> 00:26:25.724

guy sitting there that was arrogant and,

00:26:26.684 --> 00:26:28.884

you know, putting us all through this.

00:26:29.805 --> 00:26:31.965

And by the time that trial was over,

00:26:31.985 --> 00:26:33.465

I was looking at a monster,

00:26:34.166 --> 00:26:35.286

just an absolute monster.

00:26:37.116 --> 00:26:38.737

Yeah,

00:26:38.757 --> 00:26:40.999

I'm glad that I was able to go to

00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:42.781

trial for at least one day.

00:26:42.921 --> 00:26:43.762

I think that was really

00:26:43.802 --> 00:26:45.483

important to my healing process,

00:26:46.284 --> 00:26:47.465

seeing Chad in person.

00:26:48.726 --> 00:26:50.007

And I'm also grateful that I

00:26:50.047 --> 00:26:52.009

wasn't there very much longer than that.

00:26:52.189 --> 00:26:53.029

I think I probably could

00:26:53.049 --> 00:26:54.531

have gone for a few more days,

00:26:54.571 --> 00:26:57.133

but I don't think it would

00:26:57.153 --> 00:26:58.254

have been healthy for me to

00:26:58.314 --> 00:27:00.856

go every day and sit there every day.

00:27:00.876 --> 00:27:01.614

Yeah, the

00:27:03.784 --> 00:27:04.405

people do that.

00:27:04.645 --> 00:27:06.184

I mean, know, I mean,

00:27:06.204 --> 00:27:07.125

I'm separated from it.

00:27:07.185 --> 00:27:08.226

It's not my family.

00:27:08.246 --> 00:27:09.587

It's not people that I was close to.

00:27:09.607 --> 00:27:09.707

Yeah.

00:27:10.748 --> 00:27:11.388

It's, you know,

00:27:11.408 --> 00:27:12.129

a lot of the people I've

00:27:12.169 --> 00:27:14.030

gotten close to like you and some others.

00:27:15.772 --> 00:27:18.073

And so I feel more, but still it's,

00:27:18.254 --> 00:27:19.855

it's not like when it's your own family.

00:27:20.776 --> 00:27:21.056

Yeah.

00:27:21.296 --> 00:27:21.356

I,

00:27:21.436 --> 00:27:24.078

and I have so much admiration for Kay

00:27:24.158 --> 00:27:26.981

and Larry and for their ability to,

00:27:27.121 --> 00:27:29.045

to go and be there every single day.

00:27:29.175 --> 00:27:30.116

They've been there.

00:27:30.746 --> 00:27:33.829

for everything from day one on this case.

00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:35.050

And I know that they will be

00:27:35.750 --> 00:27:37.452

until the very end of the

00:27:37.492 --> 00:27:39.301

last thing that gets done on this case.

00:27:39.301 --> 00:27:42.032

And I have so much admiration for them.

00:27:42.092 --> 00:27:43.193

And if I were in their position,

00:27:43.253 --> 00:27:44.575

I probably would do the same thing.

00:27:46.228 --> 00:27:47.569

but given that I do have a

00:27:47.589 --> 00:27:49.130

little bit of distance from it,

00:27:49.790 --> 00:27:51.511

I have sort of this luxury

00:27:52.031 --> 00:27:53.052

of being able to be

00:27:53.132 --> 00:27:54.433

involved in it without

00:27:55.313 --> 00:27:56.594

feeling like I need to be

00:27:56.614 --> 00:27:58.115

there every day in order to

00:27:58.195 --> 00:27:59.950

resolve my feelings about it.

00:28:00.081 --> 00:28:02.122

So everybody has a purpose, right?

00:28:02.182 --> 00:28:03.143

That's their purpose.

00:28:03.563 --> 00:28:04.523

You have your purpose and

00:28:04.564 --> 00:28:06.164

you're doing your thing,

00:28:06.184 --> 00:28:07.705

which is also extremely important.

00:28:07.814 --> 00:28:08.203

Thank you.

00:28:08.233 --> 00:28:09.694

I keep thinking to myself,

00:28:09.734 --> 00:28:10.555

like there's going to be a

00:28:10.595 --> 00:28:14.358

point when I don't need to

00:28:14.398 --> 00:28:15.799

talk about this stuff anymore.

00:28:17.360 --> 00:28:19.042

But the more that I talk about it,

00:28:19.062 --> 00:28:20.403

the more I think we have to

00:28:20.443 --> 00:28:21.344

keep talking about it.

00:28:22.364 --> 00:28:24.967

Because it's not just this case,

00:28:25.267 --> 00:28:25.987

unfortunately.

00:28:26.728 --> 00:28:28.249

And it's not just these children,

00:28:28.930 --> 00:28:29.750

unfortunately.

00:28:29.885 --> 00:28:30.744

there are more people

00:28:30.824 --> 00:28:31.585

out there like this.

00:28:31.625 --> 00:28:32.686

And I think the more that

00:28:32.746 --> 00:28:33.755

people

00:28:34.294 --> 00:28:35.575

have their attention called

00:28:35.635 --> 00:28:37.336

to manipulative behavior

00:28:38.077 --> 00:28:39.938

and harmful behavior,

00:28:39.978 --> 00:28:41.399

I think the more aware

00:28:41.439 --> 00:28:43.541

people are of it and the

00:28:43.561 --> 00:28:45.782

more possible that we can

00:28:45.842 --> 00:28:46.983

hopefully prevent more

00:28:47.023 --> 00:28:48.164

tragedies in the future.

00:28:48.805 --> 00:28:50.045

That's what keeps driving me.

00:28:50.065 --> 00:28:50.246

I mean,

00:28:50.546 --> 00:28:52.667

there are other things and other reasons.

00:28:52.687 --> 00:28:54.389

I have my personal reasons,

00:28:54.409 --> 00:28:55.729

like I want to find answers

00:28:55.749 --> 00:28:56.710

to a lot of the questions.

00:28:57.231 --> 00:28:58.611

But what really drives me,

00:28:58.672 --> 00:29:01.173

if I'm not quite feeling motivated,

00:29:01.213 --> 00:29:03.535

what really drives me is that exactly.

00:29:04.085 --> 00:29:05.727

I know there's other things going on.

00:29:05.767 --> 00:29:06.488

There's other people.

00:29:07.008 --> 00:29:08.290

A lot of these crazy beliefs

00:29:08.330 --> 00:29:09.110

are still out there.

00:29:09.671 --> 00:29:10.452

People still have them.

00:29:10.512 --> 00:29:11.413

I've gotten to meet some of

00:29:11.433 --> 00:29:12.534

the people that still have them.

00:29:13.435 --> 00:29:14.736

They showed up at trial and

00:29:14.756 --> 00:29:16.098

they've come to book

00:29:16.118 --> 00:29:17.259

signings and stuff like that.

00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.241

Yeah.

00:29:19.261 --> 00:29:21.023

So they're still out there

00:29:21.203 --> 00:29:21.984

and it's dangerous.

00:29:22.549 --> 00:29:24.209

And that's been my fear this

00:29:24.229 --> 00:29:26.370

whole time is that from the

00:29:26.410 --> 00:29:27.710

very moment that I heard

00:29:27.770 --> 00:29:28.770

the patriarchal blessing

00:29:28.790 --> 00:29:29.910

that Chad gave where he

00:29:29.970 --> 00:29:31.410

mentioned the Church of the Firstborn,

00:29:32.011 --> 00:29:32.931

it dawned on me and I

00:29:32.971 --> 00:29:33.891

realized that there's a

00:29:34.011 --> 00:29:35.591

group of people out there

00:29:36.391 --> 00:29:37.532

that are maybe the next

00:29:37.652 --> 00:29:39.812

circle out from Chad's inner circle

00:29:40.452 --> 00:29:42.713

that do still believe these things.

00:29:42.953 --> 00:29:44.654

And just like you,

00:29:44.714 --> 00:29:46.014

I've done some digging into that,

00:29:46.074 --> 00:29:48.415

and I've found, unfortunately,

00:29:48.555 --> 00:29:50.416

a lot of groups and a lot of people.

00:29:51.096 --> 00:29:55.197

And it's scary to think that

00:29:55.437 --> 00:29:56.698

there are more people out there.

00:29:57.258 --> 00:29:59.239

Of course, we realize that's the concept,

00:29:59.299 --> 00:30:00.159

and none of us want to

00:30:00.179 --> 00:30:01.199

believe that any of them

00:30:01.320 --> 00:30:02.560

are going to turn murderous.

00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:04.461

But the scary thing is that

00:30:04.501 --> 00:30:05.721

we don't know for sure.

00:30:05.741 --> 00:30:08.062

Well, and a lot of it's harmless.

00:30:10.444 --> 00:30:12.406

Some of it even actually makes sense,

00:30:12.446 --> 00:30:13.707

like being prepared for

00:30:13.767 --> 00:30:15.248

whatever disaster could

00:30:15.288 --> 00:30:16.549

happen kind of makes a

00:30:16.589 --> 00:30:20.513

little bit of sense up to a point.

00:30:21.454 --> 00:30:22.875

These people take it all too far.

00:30:23.499 --> 00:30:26.002

And some of the ideas can be twisted.

00:30:26.102 --> 00:30:28.384

They can be taken to a place

00:30:28.604 --> 00:30:30.305

further than they were meant to be taken.

00:30:31.847 --> 00:30:33.268

And they can be very harmful.

00:30:34.270 --> 00:30:34.450

Yeah,

00:30:34.470 --> 00:30:35.852

there are two things that scare me

00:30:35.892 --> 00:30:36.672

about these groups.

00:30:36.873 --> 00:30:37.894

One is that they believe

00:30:37.914 --> 00:30:38.694

that the end of the world

00:30:38.754 --> 00:30:40.076

is going to happen at any moment.

00:30:40.736 --> 00:30:42.458

And that tends to make people desperate.

00:30:43.719 --> 00:30:46.362

And the second one is that

00:30:47.322 --> 00:30:49.284

they believe they're fully

00:30:49.324 --> 00:30:50.685

convinced that they're

00:30:50.725 --> 00:30:52.888

right and that everyone

00:30:52.928 --> 00:30:53.989

else just doesn't know.

00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:54.869

That's terrifying.

00:30:55.985 --> 00:30:57.126

that's terrifying to me

00:30:57.166 --> 00:30:59.708

because it puts someone in a mindset of,

00:31:00.008 --> 00:31:00.349

well,

00:31:01.049 --> 00:31:02.590

I know better than this person does.

00:31:02.771 --> 00:31:06.153

And so for their own good, I can do X, Y,

00:31:06.193 --> 00:31:07.374

and Z. That's,

00:31:07.414 --> 00:31:08.335

those are the two ideas

00:31:08.375 --> 00:31:09.376

that really terrify me.

00:31:09.396 --> 00:31:13.059

Yeah, I agree.

00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:15.462

And their, I don't their ability to,

00:31:16.445 --> 00:31:20.827

Manipulate and abuse people.

00:31:20.907 --> 00:31:23.528

And they think that they're OK to do that,

00:31:23.548 --> 00:31:24.868

that they're right to do that.

00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:25.709

Yeah.

00:31:26.909 --> 00:31:27.729

Especially children.

00:31:29.090 --> 00:31:29.370

Right.

00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:29.890

Right.

00:31:30.070 --> 00:31:31.051

That they can convince

00:31:31.091 --> 00:31:33.872

someone else to do anything

00:31:33.912 --> 00:31:35.372

that they want because

00:31:35.392 --> 00:31:36.653

they're a person in power.

00:31:36.673 --> 00:31:37.033

Right.

00:31:37.620 --> 00:31:39.341

and just the, yeah,

00:31:39.361 --> 00:31:40.501

the manipulation of it.

00:31:40.513 --> 00:31:41.304

these people are,

00:31:41.864 --> 00:31:44.025

a lot of them are families and they're,

00:31:44.265 --> 00:31:44.565

you know,

00:31:44.725 --> 00:31:45.986

they're moms and dads and

00:31:46.006 --> 00:31:46.907

they're bringing their kids

00:31:46.947 --> 00:31:48.587

into these situations and

00:31:48.687 --> 00:31:49.688

raising their kids with the

00:31:49.788 --> 00:31:51.969

idea that this person knows

00:31:52.009 --> 00:31:53.590

everything and the harmful

00:31:53.630 --> 00:31:56.191

ideas that get passed on because of that.

00:31:56.413 --> 00:31:59.625

listening to Garth and Emma testify.

00:32:00.583 --> 00:32:02.624

and realizing how much

00:32:03.104 --> 00:32:06.066

they've been influenced by their father.

00:32:07.687 --> 00:32:10.588

That's really, really a scary thing.

00:32:10.688 --> 00:32:11.749

It is to me too.

00:32:12.049 --> 00:32:13.009

I think about Emma's

00:32:13.029 --> 00:32:16.056

children you know, she,

00:32:16.156 --> 00:32:17.416

she's a teacher as well,

00:32:17.496 --> 00:32:18.537

or she was at least.

00:32:19.558 --> 00:32:21.579

It's scary to me that

00:32:22.760 --> 00:32:24.484

these ideas are going to get perpetuated.

00:32:24.504 --> 00:32:24.985

There's just,

00:32:25.165 --> 00:32:26.648

there's no getting around that.

00:32:27.069 --> 00:32:29.073

You can't kill an idea, you know.

00:32:29.094 --> 00:32:31.138

It's handed down.

00:32:31.654 --> 00:32:32.378

it doesn't

00:32:32.478 --> 00:32:33.959

end with Chad and Laurie being in prison.

00:32:33.999 --> 00:32:34.759

I think that's the other

00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:35.579

thing that's scary.

00:32:36.307 --> 00:32:37.227

I know that there are

00:32:37.387 --> 00:32:39.368

actually somebody contacted me last week,

00:32:39.868 --> 00:32:41.469

somebody who regularly

00:32:41.509 --> 00:32:43.590

texts with Laurie in prison.

00:32:44.070 --> 00:32:46.431

She's got her iPad and everything.

00:32:47.291 --> 00:32:50.172

And she's still she's still preaching.

00:32:50.812 --> 00:32:52.613

She's still gathering followers.

00:32:52.913 --> 00:32:55.334

She's, you know, too.

00:32:56.080 --> 00:32:56.980

I think, you know,

00:32:57.120 --> 00:32:58.081

even though he's probably a

00:32:58.121 --> 00:32:59.882

lot more isolated and

00:32:59.922 --> 00:33:01.342

everything being on death row,

00:33:01.362 --> 00:33:03.923

but but I'm sure they're

00:33:03.963 --> 00:33:05.104

still influencing people.

00:33:05.144 --> 00:33:05.904

And that's to me,

00:33:05.924 --> 00:33:09.345

that's another scary part of this.

00:33:09.385 --> 00:33:09.465

Yeah.

00:33:09.485 --> 00:33:10.486

I hate to think that that's true,

00:33:10.546 --> 00:33:11.426

but you're probably right.

00:33:12.844 --> 00:33:13.964

the ripple effects of that,

00:33:14.124 --> 00:33:15.185

if they're influencing

00:33:15.225 --> 00:33:16.925

people in jail who are

00:33:16.965 --> 00:33:17.705

eventually going to be

00:33:17.745 --> 00:33:19.066

freed because they're not

00:33:19.126 --> 00:33:20.486

serving a life sentence or they're,

00:33:20.646 --> 00:33:22.167

you know, they have more limited time.

00:33:22.367 --> 00:33:23.927

It's just, it's scary to think about,

00:33:23.947 --> 00:33:25.828

which is why I come back to

00:33:25.848 --> 00:33:26.828

the conclusion that we have

00:33:26.848 --> 00:33:27.908

to keep talking about it.

00:33:29.489 --> 00:33:30.469

Yeah, we really do.

00:33:30.489 --> 00:33:31.029

That's interesting though,

00:33:31.049 --> 00:33:33.038

that somebody is talking to her.

00:33:33.198 --> 00:33:34.859

I've tried, she won't respond to me.

00:33:36.097 --> 00:33:37.377

yeah it's more than one

00:33:37.437 --> 00:33:38.457

somebody there there's a

00:33:38.497 --> 00:33:39.538

whole group of people that

00:33:39.638 --> 00:33:41.198

that text with her and the

00:33:41.238 --> 00:33:42.818

person that contacted me

00:33:42.898 --> 00:33:46.399

said that she learned early

00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:47.579

on from other people that

00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:48.820

were talking to her if you

00:33:48.860 --> 00:33:50.160

try to talk about the case

00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:51.340

or if you try to talk about

00:33:51.380 --> 00:33:52.820

the kids she'll stop

00:33:52.860 --> 00:33:54.521

talking to you but if if

00:33:54.581 --> 00:33:55.541

all you want to talk about

00:33:55.621 --> 00:33:57.241

is religion spirituality

00:33:57.501 --> 00:33:59.522

and your ideas then she'll

00:33:59.542 --> 00:34:00.262

keep talking to you yeah

00:34:00.282 --> 00:34:03.743

that makes sense which is

00:34:03.803 --> 00:34:05.703

scary in it in and of itself

00:34:06.558 --> 00:34:07.779

Yeah.

00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:08.659

There's so many people that

00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:09.380

won't talk to me.

00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:11.841

I wish, I wish they would, you know,

00:34:11.881 --> 00:34:13.322

Chad and Lori, obviously, you know,

00:34:13.342 --> 00:34:14.222

I understand why they don't

00:34:14.242 --> 00:34:14.803

want to talk to me,

00:34:16.764 --> 00:34:18.405

but I wish Emma and Garth

00:34:18.445 --> 00:34:19.325

and a lot of the other

00:34:20.466 --> 00:34:22.967

people that are close to all of this,

00:34:22.987 --> 00:34:25.068

some of the people in the inner circle.

00:34:25.789 --> 00:34:26.909

Yeah.

00:34:26.930 --> 00:34:28.010

I know they all have reasons

00:34:28.030 --> 00:34:31.332

and they have things to hide or, you know,

00:34:31.352 --> 00:34:31.632

they want,

00:34:31.792 --> 00:34:33.013

they want to put themselves at risk.

00:34:33.947 --> 00:34:34.167

Yeah,

00:34:34.247 --> 00:34:35.729

or they kind of want to just distance

00:34:35.749 --> 00:34:37.170

themselves from this, you know,

00:34:37.690 --> 00:34:39.051

and sort of put things behind them.

00:34:39.071 --> 00:34:40.933

And I understand that, too.

00:34:40.953 --> 00:34:42.034

That's not really fair, though,

00:34:42.074 --> 00:34:42.614

I don't think.

00:34:42.654 --> 00:34:43.915

I think they need to open up

00:34:43.955 --> 00:34:46.137

and talk a little bit.

00:34:46.157 --> 00:34:47.018

I think they could help a

00:34:47.058 --> 00:34:48.519

lot of people if they did,

00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:49.580

including themselves.

00:34:51.366 --> 00:34:53.367

If they remain in their echo chamber,

00:34:53.447 --> 00:34:54.588

then their lives are never

00:34:54.628 --> 00:34:55.268

going to change.

00:34:55.388 --> 00:34:56.188

You're always going to be

00:34:56.248 --> 00:34:57.168

part of this nightmare.

00:34:57.389 --> 00:34:58.029

It's kind of this

00:34:58.329 --> 00:34:59.669

interesting paradox where

00:35:00.330 --> 00:35:01.450

it's like talking about it

00:35:01.490 --> 00:35:02.911

can free you from it.

00:35:03.231 --> 00:35:04.831

Talking about it can get you

00:35:05.071 --> 00:35:06.852

out of the loop that you're stuck in.

00:35:07.912 --> 00:35:09.193

If you don't talk about it,

00:35:09.333 --> 00:35:10.273

you're always going to be

00:35:10.313 --> 00:35:11.434

stuck in the same place.

00:35:11.534 --> 00:35:13.454

And that's to anybody who's

00:35:13.574 --> 00:35:14.835

experienced any kind of trauma.

00:35:15.650 --> 00:35:16.470

And I'm not looking to put

00:35:16.510 --> 00:35:17.591

anybody on the spot or

00:35:17.631 --> 00:35:19.512

sensationalize anything or whatever.

00:35:19.572 --> 00:35:20.973

I just want to have a conversation.

00:35:23.634 --> 00:35:24.855

And it would be so good for them.

00:35:25.095 --> 00:35:26.676

And one of the interesting things,

00:35:27.496 --> 00:35:28.597

Larry was asked,

00:35:29.117 --> 00:35:31.018

can you forgive these people?

00:35:32.399 --> 00:35:34.680

And he struggled with his answer to that.

00:35:34.720 --> 00:35:35.501

And I think the reason he

00:35:35.541 --> 00:35:37.442

struggled was because none

00:35:37.462 --> 00:35:38.402

of those people have asked

00:35:38.442 --> 00:35:39.163

for forgiveness.

00:35:39.283 --> 00:35:40.063

None of those people have,

00:35:40.223 --> 00:35:43.185

not one of them have gone,

00:35:43.205 --> 00:35:43.845

have done anything.

00:35:43.885 --> 00:35:44.986

They haven't said they're sorry.

00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:46.671

for their part in it.

00:35:47.651 --> 00:35:47.731

Um,

00:35:48.032 --> 00:35:49.413

I'm testifying in court and then they

00:35:49.433 --> 00:35:50.273

just disappear.

00:35:50.934 --> 00:35:52.495

They're not willing to speak to anybody.

00:35:53.615 --> 00:35:55.136

I think they need to ask for

00:35:55.276 --> 00:35:57.078

forgiveness or if they

00:35:57.118 --> 00:35:58.398

don't feel like they did

00:35:58.438 --> 00:35:59.959

anything they need to be forgiven for,

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:00.900

they need to at least be

00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:03.862

open to having a conversation and,

00:36:03.882 --> 00:36:04.062

you know,

00:36:04.082 --> 00:36:05.223

open up and let's talk about it.

00:36:05.823 --> 00:36:07.124

Yeah.

00:36:07.204 --> 00:36:07.504

Yeah.

00:36:07.545 --> 00:36:08.245

Forgiveness is,

00:36:08.445 --> 00:36:09.726

is an interesting concept

00:36:09.786 --> 00:36:10.887

and I've had to really, um,

00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:14.000

ponder my feelings about it

00:36:14.060 --> 00:36:15.520

during this whole process.

00:36:16.612 --> 00:36:17.973

I think forgiveness is an

00:36:18.013 --> 00:36:19.653

entirely religious concept.

00:36:20.434 --> 00:36:21.494

I don't think that

00:36:22.354 --> 00:36:24.595

necessarily outside of

00:36:24.635 --> 00:36:27.236

religion that forgiveness, for me anyway,

00:36:27.356 --> 00:36:29.437

is part of the conversation.

00:36:29.499 --> 00:36:30.700

And if we're talking about

00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:33.481

the religious concept, when I was Mormon,

00:36:34.061 --> 00:36:35.122

forgiveness to me,

00:36:35.542 --> 00:36:36.382

I felt like it was not

00:36:36.442 --> 00:36:37.943

something that was up to me to give.

00:36:38.995 --> 00:36:40.435

know forgiveness is between

00:36:40.476 --> 00:36:43.156

you and god and me

00:36:43.196 --> 00:36:44.817

forgiving somebody just

00:36:44.877 --> 00:36:45.957

meant that i didn't harbor

00:36:45.977 --> 00:36:47.938

them any ill will and that

00:36:47.998 --> 00:36:49.518

i didn't hold on to any

00:36:49.558 --> 00:36:50.959

feelings of animosity for

00:36:50.979 --> 00:36:52.779

that person so that freed

00:36:52.859 --> 00:36:56.380

me from the toxicity of

00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:58.721

those feelings right and

00:36:59.101 --> 00:37:00.082

now that i'm not mormon

00:37:00.122 --> 00:37:01.482

anymore and i'm free to

00:37:01.642 --> 00:37:04.403

think other things and have

00:37:04.443 --> 00:37:05.988

other ideas

00:37:07.306 --> 00:37:08.307

It's such a complicated

00:37:08.367 --> 00:37:09.628

thing because forgiveness

00:37:10.149 --> 00:37:11.750

to a lot of people implies

00:37:11.991 --> 00:37:15.113

that everything's good between you.

00:37:15.534 --> 00:37:15.854

You know,

00:37:16.034 --> 00:37:17.536

if you say something to offend me

00:37:17.636 --> 00:37:18.316

and I forgive you,

00:37:18.356 --> 00:37:19.277

that means we're all good

00:37:19.317 --> 00:37:20.438

and we can continue on with

00:37:20.478 --> 00:37:21.259

our relationship.

00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.081

So if that's if that's the concept,

00:37:24.101 --> 00:37:24.902

then no,

00:37:25.323 --> 00:37:26.504

I don't have any forgiveness for

00:37:26.564 --> 00:37:27.805

any any of the people who

00:37:28.345 --> 00:37:29.726

put played any part in this.

00:37:30.267 --> 00:37:31.428

We're never going to be good.

00:37:31.928 --> 00:37:32.749

We're never going to have a

00:37:32.789 --> 00:37:33.650

relationship again.

00:37:34.111 --> 00:37:35.751

Do I harbor them any ill will?

00:37:36.432 --> 00:37:37.853

I honestly have to say I do.

00:37:37.873 --> 00:37:39.353

I think what they did was

00:37:39.413 --> 00:37:41.435

horrible and I think it's unforgivable.

00:37:42.195 --> 00:37:44.276

And I wrestled a lot when

00:37:44.876 --> 00:37:46.777

Chad was sentenced to death because,

00:37:47.178 --> 00:37:48.038

and I'm really interested

00:37:48.098 --> 00:37:50.439

on your feelings about this too.

00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:52.220

I thought that the death

00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:53.581

penalty was what I wanted