Jumping off the Treadmill: Unshaming with Zelph on the Shelf!

WEBVTT

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Hello, beautiful humans,

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and welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

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I'm your host, Megan Conner,

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and today I am joined by

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two incredibly wonderful

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human beings and

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revolutionaries in their own right,

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Samantha and Tanner.

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Welcome, Zelf on the Shelf.

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Yay!

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Hi.

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Hi.

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Would you say we're your

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favorite midlifers?

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You definitely are.

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Definitely my favorite.

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Revolutionizing the very

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concept of midlife.

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That's a big part of it.

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In fact, I always tell people that,

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you know,

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people think about midlife as a

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certain age,

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but I think of it as a stage

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in your life where you just

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sort of stop what you're

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doing and look around and say,

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wait a second, I've been on autopilot.

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Is this what I really want?

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Yeah,

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so good to have your midlife crisis

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as early as possible.

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So you can reevaluate sooner.

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I love that.

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Exactly, exactly.

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So that's why I wanted to

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have you guys on because I

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love your stories and your

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revolutions that you're creating.

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And I just want you guys to

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talk about yourselves for a little bit.

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Who wants to go first?

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I'd love to go first.

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Tanya, you go first.

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All right.

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We are two ex-Mormon content creators.

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We met in college at Brigham

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Young University, Idaho.

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We've been doing YouTube for

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about the better part of a decade,

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eight years,

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and talking a lot about religion,

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philosophy, ethics, culture,

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and whatever.

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Mindfulness, healing.

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Random things come into our mind.

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That's a very...

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um level-headed description

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of what we do sometimes

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it's a bit chaotic

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sometimes it's just

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claymation yep and it

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doesn't make sense yeah a

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little comedy sprinkled in

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there too um claymation is

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some of my favorite by the

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way i love it real one have

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we got a podcast for you

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We've had you on our show before,

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a great episode.

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I was just talking to my

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partner today about that

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episode and just how wise

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you are and not on the

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superficial level that

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sometimes these

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conversations take place at

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where it's like, oh yeah,

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saying the right therapy terms,

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but a deeply embodied wisdom.

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You can tell that this is

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something that you care deeply about and

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are both well-studied and

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well-experienced and just

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such a big heart.

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And so we're very happy to be on the show.

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Thank you so much.

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I will pay you later for that endorsement.

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That was wonderful.

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You know our rate.

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I always tell people I am

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not any kind of licensed

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professional of any kind.

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I don't know.

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I haven't studied mental health,

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but I am an expert in my own trauma.

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And so I hopefully can help that,

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use that to help other

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people to heal from their trauma,

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their experiences as well.

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And we talked a lot about

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body shame when I was on your show.

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mm-hmm

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i remember body

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shaming when you came on

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our youtube channel that

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was one of the

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conversations i wish we

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could have dug in a bit

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deeper but obviously

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there's so much to talk

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about in one episode

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Yeah.

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There always seems to be so

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much to talk about and so little time.

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And the two of you are so

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intelligent and well-spoken

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and I really appreciate our

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conversations together.

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And so who knows how long, you know,

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this will go on.

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At some point we're going to

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need to eat and sleep and everything,

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but we can talk for a really long time.

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Yay.

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Yay.

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So in your,

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what would you say would be

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sort of your turning point

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for each of you when we talk about,

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you know, on the midlife revolution,

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we talk about just sort of a time when,

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when you sort of wake up

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from the treadmill life and

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you start to sort of

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question whether or not the

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things in your life are

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what you really want for the longterm.

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And so maybe each of you

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could say what that moment was for you,

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or at least one of the moments.

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Well,

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I love that you called it the

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treadmill life because my

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treadmill moment was

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literally as I was working

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for a treadmill company

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selling treadmills.

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So true.

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And it just felt like such a

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perfect metaphor.

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That's amazing.

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Just being on this track to

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nowhere constantly and, you know, yeah,

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and no,

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nothing against the people I

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worked with or, you know.

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Or treadmills.

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Or treadmills, you know,

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home fitness is great.

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Yeah.

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But for me, I mean,

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this was all like the

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church stuff had all just

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happened prior where I

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realized through after a long,

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prolonged investigation

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into the truth claims of my

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religion after having

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graduated the church

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university and gone on a

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mission and the works and

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having had all that crumble,

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I found myself, you know,

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working in this office,

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looking up at the mountains

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and every day from, you know, the

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from the light of day to the dark,

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just being stuck in this building going,

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what am I doing here?

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And got to the point where I

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was actually like kind of being like,

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Hmm,

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I don't know that I want to

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be here at all.

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Like it, this just doesn't seem worth it.

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And you know,

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I've realized that a lot of

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people have jobs that they

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don't necessarily love and

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they have to work in an

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office all day and it's, you know,

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not the worst thing in the

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world for everybody.

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But for me,

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I just knew that there was something,

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well, I didn't know actually,

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I think I was just really,

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really scared and being like,

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I don't want to do this.

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And it was through,

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lots of conversations with lots of people,

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but I remember specifically with, um,

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a friend and kind of a

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mentor who I called just in

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a moment of deep panic.

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And, uh, he said to me, like,

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you're a maker.

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You need to be making things.

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You need to be self-expressing.

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You need to be around people

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who are creating things like do it,

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take the plunge.

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Like this is your escape out

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of the rat race and you

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just have to like do it.

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And that was definitely a

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turning point for me.

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Yeah, that's so excellent.

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And I think that when we're

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raised in the Mormon church,

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we're raised to search for

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meaning and purpose in our lives.

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And so when the church

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aspect or the religious

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aspect of it goes away,

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I think a lot of us are

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left wondering what is the

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meaning of life now?

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What is my purpose now?

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Who am I now?

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And we all have to ask

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ourselves those questions.

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yeah and and you know when

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for me like a lot of people

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you know they do mormonism

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and they do other things

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for me mormonism was like

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the only thing i had other

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interests technically but

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only in as much as they

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were useful to the church

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and all my creativity and

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self-expression was all

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you know, church oriented.

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So when that went away,

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I literally had nothing.

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And, you know,

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maybe I could go do a normal,

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I couldn't do a normal job today, but,

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you know,

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maybe if I had had a better

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established sense of

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purpose or was pursuing

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something more aligned with

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my creative interests,

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but I just didn't even care

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up until that point.

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And then I found myself like, oh,

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I built this whole life for

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myself that I don't like or

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enjoy or care about at all,

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simply because there was

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just this one thing that I was serving.

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And when that went away, I had nothing.

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Yeah, I feel like, I mean,

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despite its impact on our

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financial stability,

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like we did get lucky in

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the sense that our getting

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off the treadmill moment

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was while we were interns

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right after graduating college.

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So I feel like that sort of helped,

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you know what I mean?

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Well, I guess your next job,

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the treadmill job was right after that,

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but it does feel kind of

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like a blessing in some

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ways to have your whole

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worldview fall apart in

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your early twenties.

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Cause that's the time when like,

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you don't we didn't have

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responsibilities so we were

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like able to embrace a

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level of flexibility and uh

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at times poverty that you

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wouldn't be able to do if

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you like had a family or

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definitely yeah so that was

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kind of a gift

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Yeah.

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So you were still kind of

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establishing yourself as

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human beings anyway,

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and still kind of

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establishing your life and

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your goals and everything.

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So maybe it was a little bit

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of a blessing that it came

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so early because first of all,

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you had so much more time

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in the future to look forward to,

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but also you hadn't really

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put down roots that needed

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to be pulled up when you

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left the religion.

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Yeah, we both had, I mean,

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like well-paying

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copywriting jobs that we

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were quickly realizing we

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weren't going to be able to

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survive in for very long.

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That's kind of a, yeah,

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just an interesting note

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that we had the same job

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and we were both just dying in our jobs.

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Yeah, so Samantha,

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can you talk a little bit

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about your treadmill moment?

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Yeah.

00:08:28.575 --> 00:08:29.396

Although I'm sure it's not

00:08:29.416 --> 00:08:32.498

going to be as literal as Tanner's.

00:08:32.918 --> 00:08:33.739

I also worked for a

00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:35.040

treadmill company competing.

00:08:37.041 --> 00:08:39.103

Yeah, so I wasn't raised in Mormonism.

00:08:39.203 --> 00:08:41.024

I converted at sixteen.

00:08:42.205 --> 00:08:44.427

But all through growing up

00:08:44.467 --> 00:08:46.368

and then I suppose at BYU-Idaho,

00:08:46.448 --> 00:08:47.829

I was very committed to

00:08:47.969 --> 00:08:49.550

academic success as sort of

00:08:49.590 --> 00:08:51.112

like an anchor, you know, and a...

00:08:51.832 --> 00:08:53.073

Especially growing up in England,

00:08:53.113 --> 00:08:54.514

it was sort of like my

00:08:54.574 --> 00:08:55.634

whole sense of self and

00:08:55.674 --> 00:08:58.516

safety was found in academic success.

00:08:58.717 --> 00:08:59.838

And then, yeah,

00:08:59.898 --> 00:09:02.499

leaving the church and having your whole,

00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:04.460

our whole worldview pulled

00:09:04.500 --> 00:09:05.401

out from under us.

00:09:05.801 --> 00:09:06.001

I mean,

00:09:06.021 --> 00:09:07.923

it really did just make me evaluate

00:09:07.983 --> 00:09:08.963

everything and also

00:09:09.063 --> 00:09:10.164

starting to get a sense of

00:09:10.204 --> 00:09:11.305

like the world of work.

00:09:12.065 --> 00:09:14.527

And realizing, like, for whatever reason,

00:09:14.587 --> 00:09:14.827

like,

00:09:14.867 --> 00:09:17.509

the commitment I had to academic success,

00:09:17.529 --> 00:09:17.649

like,

00:09:17.669 --> 00:09:19.410

didn't transfer to the world of work

00:09:19.450 --> 00:09:20.390

where it just felt like so

00:09:20.430 --> 00:09:21.551

much of what I was doing

00:09:21.591 --> 00:09:24.693

was just kind of meaningless or busy work,

00:09:24.713 --> 00:09:25.374

which I know is something

00:09:25.394 --> 00:09:26.995

so many people struggle with, you know,

00:09:27.035 --> 00:09:28.856

just feeling like the work

00:09:28.896 --> 00:09:30.057

you're doing is a bit...

00:09:30.415 --> 00:09:30.715

I don't know,

00:09:30.735 --> 00:09:32.136

sort of abstract or you don't

00:09:32.196 --> 00:09:32.756

feel like you're

00:09:32.776 --> 00:09:34.176

meaningfully contributing

00:09:34.277 --> 00:09:35.357

to the world and that

00:09:35.397 --> 00:09:36.677

really can eat away at you.

00:09:36.916 --> 00:09:37.718

I feel like when you

00:09:37.778 --> 00:09:39.959

still have Mormonism in your life,

00:09:39.999 --> 00:09:40.459

you're like, well,

00:09:40.499 --> 00:09:42.700

this is just a job and my

00:09:42.780 --> 00:09:43.621

ultimate purpose is to

00:09:43.661 --> 00:09:45.581

serve God and to lift up

00:09:45.621 --> 00:09:47.022

the kingdom and all those things.

00:09:47.062 --> 00:09:49.343

But then when that was

00:09:49.403 --> 00:09:51.304

pulled out from under me, I was like,

00:09:51.404 --> 00:09:53.865

well, the work I choose to do is...

00:09:54.265 --> 00:09:55.305

kind of everything you know

00:09:55.325 --> 00:09:56.726

like the contribution I

00:09:56.786 --> 00:09:58.747

make to the world matters

00:09:58.787 --> 00:09:59.907

now or it matters way more

00:09:59.927 --> 00:10:01.628

than it did before um also

00:10:01.688 --> 00:10:02.929

I feel like my treadmill

00:10:02.949 --> 00:10:04.069

moment really if I'm being

00:10:04.109 --> 00:10:05.850

honest just came by virtue

00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:06.570

of the fact that I just

00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:08.111

like have never been able

00:10:08.131 --> 00:10:09.471

to thrive in like a

00:10:10.071 --> 00:10:11.232

structured working for

00:10:11.272 --> 00:10:12.472

someone else situation like

00:10:12.492 --> 00:10:13.473

I've had a million jobs

00:10:13.493 --> 00:10:14.593

throughout my life and have

00:10:14.753 --> 00:10:15.854

just struggled in all of

00:10:15.874 --> 00:10:16.954

them however much I like

00:10:17.494 --> 00:10:19.315

wanted to do well in them or was like

00:10:19.735 --> 00:10:20.676

technically good at the

00:10:20.756 --> 00:10:22.779

actual work I just found

00:10:22.839 --> 00:10:25.022

like the environments uh

00:10:25.022 --> 00:10:26.063

I'm just like having to

00:10:26.103 --> 00:10:27.144

like sit in a certain spot

00:10:27.164 --> 00:10:28.065

for eight hours a day and

00:10:28.125 --> 00:10:29.747

like I just found all of that like

00:10:30.290 --> 00:10:32.011

honestly impossible and I'm

00:10:32.051 --> 00:10:33.633

like I'm hearing myself and

00:10:33.653 --> 00:10:34.494

I'm imagining a lot of

00:10:34.534 --> 00:10:35.514

people being like okay you

00:10:35.534 --> 00:10:37.856

know lazy millennial thinks

00:10:38.076 --> 00:10:40.398

they have ADHD I am

00:10:40.418 --> 00:10:41.318

diagnosed with ADHD if

00:10:41.959 --> 00:10:43.900

that's worth anything but

00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.882

yeah I just I think again

00:10:47.102 --> 00:10:48.583

when I was younger with

00:10:49.123 --> 00:10:51.005

academics you know doing well in school

00:10:51.756 --> 00:10:52.697

I was still young enough to

00:10:52.717 --> 00:10:53.877

where my ego was so wrapped

00:10:53.917 --> 00:10:55.458

up in it that it had like this,

00:10:56.438 --> 00:10:58.399

it all felt naturally worth it to me.

00:10:58.420 --> 00:11:00.961

But then I just didn't get like the,

00:11:01.201 --> 00:11:02.942

the egoic boost out of a

00:11:02.982 --> 00:11:04.263

job that I got when I was

00:11:04.303 --> 00:11:06.004

younger and like trying to

00:11:06.024 --> 00:11:07.344

be the top of the class or whatever.

00:11:07.444 --> 00:11:09.265

So it just suddenly, yeah,

00:11:09.785 --> 00:11:11.106

I feel like I'm waffling a lot,

00:11:11.146 --> 00:11:12.647

but basically I've always

00:11:12.667 --> 00:11:14.188

been bad at jobs and I have

00:11:14.228 --> 00:11:16.169

to unshame that because I've tried,

00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:17.289

I always had jobs.

00:11:17.349 --> 00:11:17.690

I wasn't,

00:11:18.210 --> 00:11:19.851

someone who like you know

00:11:19.911 --> 00:11:20.791

always got a free ride or

00:11:20.811 --> 00:11:21.745

anything like that but

00:11:21.745 --> 00:11:22.896

just i also feel like it's

00:11:22.936 --> 00:11:24.636

really hard to go from like

00:11:24.656 --> 00:11:26.317

you were saying when you're

00:11:26.437 --> 00:11:27.997

in the church and you feel

00:11:28.017 --> 00:11:29.358

like your higher purpose is

00:11:29.398 --> 00:11:31.038

like preparing for the next

00:11:31.118 --> 00:11:32.799

life and you know you're

00:11:32.979 --> 00:11:34.399

you're literally getting

00:11:34.439 --> 00:11:35.820

ready to have your own planet

00:11:37.380 --> 00:11:38.781

It's kind of hard to go from

00:11:38.861 --> 00:11:40.761

that level of meaning to

00:11:40.781 --> 00:11:42.101

just working in a cubicle

00:11:42.141 --> 00:11:44.322

every day and possibly

00:11:44.362 --> 00:11:46.142

doing paperwork and things like that.

00:11:46.282 --> 00:11:48.123

And I totally identify with

00:11:48.163 --> 00:11:49.803

the ADHD aspect of it

00:11:49.843 --> 00:11:51.624

because if you're not

00:11:52.564 --> 00:11:54.184

motivated to do something,

00:11:54.325 --> 00:11:56.045

if it's not interesting to you,

00:11:56.605 --> 00:11:58.651

that's when the procrastination comes in.

00:11:59.311 --> 00:12:01.051

And then you just don't, you don't do it.

00:12:01.051 --> 00:12:01.541

you don't want to

00:12:01.694 --> 00:12:02.655

accomplish it.

00:12:02.775 --> 00:12:04.376

And I think honestly,

00:12:04.877 --> 00:12:06.959

it's really not the millennial thing.

00:12:07.299 --> 00:12:08.560

I think that millennials get

00:12:08.660 --> 00:12:10.362

such a bad rap for being

00:12:10.402 --> 00:12:11.723

quote unquote lazy or not

00:12:11.763 --> 00:12:13.565

wanting to do quote unquote real work,

00:12:13.605 --> 00:12:13.683

but

00:12:13.683 --> 00:12:13.725

for a

00:12:13.805 --> 00:12:14.840

lot of the time,

00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:16.393

if you're going into a corporate job,

00:12:16.633 --> 00:12:17.734

you're asking somebody to

00:12:17.774 --> 00:12:19.676

kind of push paper around and,

00:12:20.161 --> 00:12:21.462

report to someone else on

00:12:21.522 --> 00:12:23.223

kind of menial tasks,

00:12:23.763 --> 00:12:24.903

and you don't really feel

00:12:24.963 --> 00:12:25.944

like you're a part of

00:12:25.984 --> 00:12:27.024

something important.

00:12:27.685 --> 00:12:30.486

And there used to be this sort of notion,

00:12:30.526 --> 00:12:32.507

like back in my grandparents' day,

00:12:32.987 --> 00:12:35.088

where if you went to

00:12:35.128 --> 00:12:36.069

college and you got a

00:12:36.109 --> 00:12:37.850

degree and then you got a good job,

00:12:37.890 --> 00:12:38.710

you were with the same

00:12:38.750 --> 00:12:40.251

company for your whole career.

00:12:40.771 --> 00:12:41.752

And you felt like you were a part of it.

00:12:41.772 --> 00:12:42.492

And you could actually buy a

00:12:42.532 --> 00:12:43.166

house and...

00:12:43.251 --> 00:12:45.032

no yeah our generation is

00:12:45.072 --> 00:12:46.033

like the first generation

00:12:46.073 --> 00:12:47.014

just saying something about

00:12:47.034 --> 00:12:47.494

it because we're not

00:12:47.574 --> 00:12:48.415

getting the same

00:12:48.935 --> 00:12:50.436

consequences like we don't

00:12:50.936 --> 00:12:51.897

yeah we don't get to be

00:12:51.957 --> 00:12:53.198

homeowners we don't we can

00:12:53.518 --> 00:12:54.799

have great paying jobs and

00:12:54.839 --> 00:12:56.060

it's still like it's not

00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:57.260

yielding the fruits it used

00:12:57.280 --> 00:12:58.101

to for our parents or

00:12:58.121 --> 00:12:59.682

grandparents which

00:12:59.822 --> 00:13:00.463

definitely makes the

00:13:00.503 --> 00:13:01.763

difference also we'd both

00:13:01.803 --> 00:13:03.865

be like at our like you

00:13:03.885 --> 00:13:05.006

know professional writing

00:13:05.046 --> 00:13:06.987

jobs like secretly writing

00:13:07.007 --> 00:13:07.908

about the church on the

00:13:07.948 --> 00:13:09.489

side because it was like I

00:13:09.529 --> 00:13:10.269

suppose in that sense we

00:13:10.289 --> 00:13:11.150

weren't lazy we just

00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:12.591

weren't passionate about

00:13:12.932 --> 00:13:13.773

Corporate writing?

00:13:14.693 --> 00:13:15.274

Exactly.

00:13:15.434 --> 00:13:17.476

And when you're a writer and

00:13:17.516 --> 00:13:18.296

you're a creator,

00:13:18.336 --> 00:13:19.357

you want to write about

00:13:19.397 --> 00:13:20.658

things that interest you

00:13:20.899 --> 00:13:22.460

and that you're passionate about.

00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:24.542

And so writing from an

00:13:25.062 --> 00:13:26.083

assignment someone else is

00:13:26.663 --> 00:13:27.644

giving you that doesn't

00:13:27.684 --> 00:13:28.885

have a lot of meaning for you,

00:13:29.005 --> 00:13:30.327

I can imagine must have

00:13:30.347 --> 00:13:31.948

been pretty mind numbing as well.

00:13:32.249 --> 00:13:32.374

Well,

00:13:32.414 --> 00:13:34.316

when you've just felt that loss of

00:13:34.856 --> 00:13:37.158

your whole worldview and your faith,

00:13:37.238 --> 00:13:38.119

it's like suddenly the

00:13:38.199 --> 00:13:40.381

stakes of life just feel so high.

00:13:40.441 --> 00:13:41.202

And when you're trying to

00:13:41.903 --> 00:13:44.045

figure out like your reason

00:13:44.085 --> 00:13:45.186

for being or whether there

00:13:45.246 --> 00:13:47.248

even is a reason to continue being,

00:13:47.428 --> 00:13:48.929

which is something we both struggled with,

00:13:48.989 --> 00:13:51.131

it's very hard to put on the sort of

00:13:51.432 --> 00:13:52.673

corporate face they want you

00:13:53.134 --> 00:13:54.575

to put on and pretend like

00:13:54.655 --> 00:13:55.756

writing about treadmills is

00:13:55.796 --> 00:13:56.637

the thing you were put on

00:13:56.677 --> 00:13:57.638

God's earth to do.

00:13:57.698 --> 00:13:59.399

And it's your dream to be in

00:13:59.439 --> 00:14:00.961

this conference room at this moment.

00:14:01.061 --> 00:14:03.123

Hey, I could never take that seriously.

00:14:03.143 --> 00:14:03.803

You know, they're like,

00:14:04.104 --> 00:14:05.365

are we so excited for this

00:14:05.425 --> 00:14:06.145

upcoming thing?

00:14:06.165 --> 00:14:07.867

And I'm like, no, to be honest,

00:14:07.907 --> 00:14:08.708

not really.

00:14:08.728 --> 00:14:13.172

You guys pay me money.

00:14:13.192 --> 00:14:14.233

It's not like this is my

00:14:14.473 --> 00:14:16.895

heart's desire since I was a child.

00:14:18.156 --> 00:14:18.457

Tanner,

00:14:18.497 --> 00:14:19.978

we are so excited because we've

00:14:20.038 --> 00:14:21.059

totally rearranged the

00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:22.061

buttons on the treadmill

00:14:22.081 --> 00:14:23.542

and we want you to write all about it.

00:14:23.943 --> 00:14:24.844

That's literally it.

00:14:24.864 --> 00:14:25.404

That was it.

00:14:25.464 --> 00:14:27.627

That was the job.

00:14:29.709 --> 00:14:29.929

Yeah.

00:14:30.029 --> 00:14:31.010

One of the other things that

00:14:31.050 --> 00:14:32.172

I've been thinking about

00:14:32.252 --> 00:14:33.573

and talking a lot about

00:14:34.014 --> 00:14:37.497

also is that when you leave the church,

00:14:38.058 --> 00:14:39.659

and you sort of let go of

00:14:39.719 --> 00:14:43.040

this idea of preparing for the afterlife,

00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:44.961

suddenly this life becomes

00:14:45.001 --> 00:14:46.081

a lot more meaningful.

00:14:46.562 --> 00:14:47.622

And I think a lot of us in

00:14:47.662 --> 00:14:49.063

the church sort of give

00:14:49.103 --> 00:14:50.283

less importance and meaning

00:14:50.323 --> 00:14:51.083

to the life that we're

00:14:51.123 --> 00:14:52.404

having right now because

00:14:52.424 --> 00:14:54.125

we're looking so forward to

00:14:54.145 --> 00:14:55.765

things being better in the afterlife.

00:14:56.165 --> 00:14:57.446

So I don't know if you felt this,

00:14:57.486 --> 00:14:58.807

but when I left the church

00:14:58.887 --> 00:14:59.867

and there was no longer

00:14:59.907 --> 00:15:02.228

this belief in an afterlife, for me,

00:15:02.848 --> 00:15:04.409

it changed my entire

00:15:04.449 --> 00:15:05.469

perspective on what I'm

00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:07.010

doing in this life right now.

00:15:07.464 --> 00:15:08.800

it made me want to do

00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:10.061

things that were even more

00:15:10.081 --> 00:15:12.482

meaningful in this life, like my career,

00:15:12.883 --> 00:15:13.183

you know,

00:15:13.343 --> 00:15:14.303

doing something that was

00:15:14.343 --> 00:15:15.504

important or meaningful.

00:15:15.604 --> 00:15:15.951

Yeah,

00:15:16.449 --> 00:15:17.850

I sometimes get the hunch

00:15:17.870 --> 00:15:18.911

that the afterlife was

00:15:18.971 --> 00:15:20.713

invented for that purpose,

00:15:20.873 --> 00:15:23.135

to detach people from this life,

00:15:23.155 --> 00:15:24.536

to put less emphasis on it,

00:15:24.576 --> 00:15:25.697

to convince people to do

00:15:25.717 --> 00:15:26.558

things that they wouldn't

00:15:26.658 --> 00:15:28.620

otherwise do if they felt

00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:30.282

that this life was it.

00:15:30.802 --> 00:15:32.544

Yeah, I agree with you on that.

00:15:33.225 --> 00:15:35.527

And also to sort of diminish the pain,

00:15:36.048 --> 00:15:36.368

you know,

00:15:36.428 --> 00:15:37.909

it's sort of like that opiate of

00:15:37.950 --> 00:15:40.232

the masses idea where if

00:15:40.272 --> 00:15:41.493

what we're going through in

00:15:41.533 --> 00:15:43.575

this life is unpleasant or difficult,

00:15:43.615 --> 00:15:45.517

we can just dismiss it away

00:15:45.938 --> 00:15:48.240

by taking the drug of, well,

00:15:48.300 --> 00:15:49.722

things will be better in the next world.

00:15:50.606 --> 00:15:50.906

Yeah,

00:15:51.587 --> 00:15:55.049

which I do understand the appeal of

00:15:55.069 --> 00:15:57.291

that because this world is

00:15:57.371 --> 00:15:58.712

so full of suffering and

00:15:58.772 --> 00:16:00.854

just dealing with mortality

00:16:01.074 --> 00:16:02.015

is really hard.

00:16:02.635 --> 00:16:05.477

And so I understand the

00:16:05.517 --> 00:16:06.618

impulse to want to believe

00:16:06.658 --> 00:16:07.339

that there's more,

00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:08.199

that there's some kind of

00:16:08.599 --> 00:16:10.741

divine justice that will play out.

00:16:11.522 --> 00:16:14.324

But I think what that ends up doing is...

00:16:15.195 --> 00:16:15.355

You know,

00:16:15.415 --> 00:16:17.817

procrastinating the day of our living,

00:16:17.957 --> 00:16:19.098

as it were, like, you know,

00:16:19.178 --> 00:16:22.760

we rather than fully grieving, you know,

00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:24.901

the pain and the suffering and the loss,

00:16:25.202 --> 00:16:26.242

we just put it off and then

00:16:26.262 --> 00:16:27.883

we never actually confront life.

00:16:27.903 --> 00:16:28.604

And because we're not

00:16:28.644 --> 00:16:29.825

confronted with our own grief,

00:16:30.105 --> 00:16:32.326

we also miss out on the joy.

00:16:32.366 --> 00:16:33.527

That's the flip side of that,

00:16:33.547 --> 00:16:34.468

because if you live.

00:16:35.088 --> 00:16:37.168

in the awareness of grief of

00:16:37.228 --> 00:16:39.369

mortality of loss then all

00:16:39.389 --> 00:16:41.089

your joy is like through

00:16:41.109 --> 00:16:41.889

the roof every minute

00:16:41.909 --> 00:16:42.990

you're well you know not

00:16:43.050 --> 00:16:45.170

all the time but it's uh

00:16:45.190 --> 00:16:45.910

you know it's it sucks a

00:16:45.950 --> 00:16:48.031

lot of it but also you are

00:16:48.251 --> 00:16:49.491

it informs that so you know

00:16:49.511 --> 00:16:50.731

when i'm spending time with

00:16:50.751 --> 00:16:52.652

a loved one i'm really

00:16:52.692 --> 00:16:53.912

trying to spend time with a

00:16:53.952 --> 00:16:55.832

loved one because i know

00:16:56.212 --> 00:16:58.393

how precious that moment really is

00:16:59.073 --> 00:17:00.716

And knowing that I'll have

00:17:00.736 --> 00:17:02.998

to grieve the death of my friends,

00:17:03.038 --> 00:17:03.899

of my family,

00:17:04.801 --> 00:17:06.283

informs the way that I

00:17:06.323 --> 00:17:06.963

interact with them.

00:17:07.004 --> 00:17:08.245

Rather than being like, oh, well, you know,

00:17:08.265 --> 00:17:09.206

I'll see him when I see him.

00:17:09.286 --> 00:17:11.008

We'll have eternity to hang out.

00:17:11.028 --> 00:17:11.808

Or like,

00:17:11.849 --> 00:17:12.950

how can I earn spiritual brownie

00:17:12.970 --> 00:17:14.211

points from this interaction?

00:17:14.271 --> 00:17:15.572

How can this secure me up a

00:17:15.592 --> 00:17:16.633

bigger mansion in heaven?

00:17:17.154 --> 00:17:17.534

Right.

00:17:18.531 --> 00:17:19.412

Yeah, exactly.

00:17:19.452 --> 00:17:20.773

I think it does help me to

00:17:20.893 --> 00:17:22.215

savor the relationships

00:17:22.235 --> 00:17:24.077

that I have and prioritize

00:17:24.137 --> 00:17:27.401

time with quality people and to not,

00:17:27.461 --> 00:17:27.701

you know,

00:17:27.761 --> 00:17:30.143

not put things off for later and say, oh,

00:17:30.343 --> 00:17:31.585

yeah, we'll connect later.

00:17:31.845 --> 00:17:33.687

I have forever to deal with that.

00:17:34.207 --> 00:17:36.109

So it does change your perspective.

00:17:36.315 --> 00:17:37.596

Can you each talk a little

00:17:37.616 --> 00:17:39.559

bit about some of the small

00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:41.181

changes that you began to

00:17:41.221 --> 00:17:44.365

make after your transition out of faith?

00:17:44.645 --> 00:17:46.547

And what were some of the

00:17:46.848 --> 00:17:48.369

small changes that you made

00:17:48.430 --> 00:17:50.892

that ended up being really important?

00:17:51.313 --> 00:17:53.876

I have a treadmill related story.

00:17:53.956 --> 00:17:56.378

Way to keep us on track.

00:17:58.961 --> 00:18:00.642

So we, I mean,

00:18:01.183 --> 00:18:02.164

we both went through like a

00:18:02.224 --> 00:18:03.725

very depressed,

00:18:03.865 --> 00:18:05.026

nihilistic phase after

00:18:05.046 --> 00:18:05.807

leaving the church.

00:18:05.847 --> 00:18:07.589

And I can't remember how

00:18:07.649 --> 00:18:09.170

long I'd been in that phase for,

00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:10.472

maybe about a year of just

00:18:10.552 --> 00:18:12.493

feeling like life had no meaning.

00:18:12.754 --> 00:18:15.217

And yeah, I just couldn't find...

00:18:15.916 --> 00:18:17.757

any joy in life,

00:18:17.817 --> 00:18:19.138

except for I did get a cat

00:18:19.178 --> 00:18:20.499

called Clickbait and he

00:18:20.539 --> 00:18:21.600

kind of brought me back to life,

00:18:21.620 --> 00:18:23.461

having another living thing to care for.

00:18:24.181 --> 00:18:25.502

That started a snowball

00:18:25.542 --> 00:18:27.504

effect of imbuing my life

00:18:27.524 --> 00:18:28.145

with meaning again.

00:18:28.245 --> 00:18:32.327

But I remember about a year to two years,

00:18:32.447 --> 00:18:33.128

probably a year and a half

00:18:33.968 --> 00:18:35.770

after the complete collapse of our faith,

00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:37.531

I started listening to this

00:18:37.571 --> 00:18:39.272

podcast called My Dad Wrote a Porno,

00:18:39.332 --> 00:18:40.012

which is just like this

00:18:40.032 --> 00:18:41.673

comedy podcast in the UK.

00:18:42.874 --> 00:18:45.437

And the podcast was so good

00:18:45.477 --> 00:18:47.099

and so funny that I just

00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:48.160

remember thinking in my mind,

00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:49.261

I'm going to want to binge

00:18:49.281 --> 00:18:50.002

this constantly.

00:18:50.042 --> 00:18:51.964

So I might as well like move

00:18:52.024 --> 00:18:53.005

my body while I do it

00:18:53.065 --> 00:18:54.566

because I can't sit still anyway.

00:18:54.586 --> 00:18:55.207

So I was like,

00:18:55.227 --> 00:18:55.908

I'm going to listen to an

00:18:55.948 --> 00:18:58.210

episode a day and go to my

00:18:58.250 --> 00:18:59.231

apartment gym and walk on

00:18:59.271 --> 00:19:00.072

the treadmill for the

00:19:00.112 --> 00:19:00.913

length of that episode,

00:19:00.933 --> 00:19:01.734

like thirty minutes.

00:19:02.234 --> 00:19:03.956

And prior to this, for like a year,

00:19:04.036 --> 00:19:05.657

I just like, I hadn't been moving.

00:19:05.737 --> 00:19:08.240

I hadn't been like treating my body right.

00:19:08.280 --> 00:19:10.482

I just wasn't motivated to

00:19:10.502 --> 00:19:13.484

like live a healthy life

00:19:13.504 --> 00:19:15.026

physically or spiritually

00:19:15.046 --> 00:19:17.208

or emotionally or anything.

00:19:17.748 --> 00:19:20.230

And just starting to do this

00:19:20.571 --> 00:19:21.592

one half an hour thing

00:19:21.632 --> 00:19:23.473

every single day was like

00:19:23.954 --> 00:19:26.436

my entry point back into

00:19:26.876 --> 00:19:27.977

life again as physically,

00:19:28.818 --> 00:19:30.158

silly or not silly as it

00:19:30.198 --> 00:19:32.019

might sound at number one

00:19:32.059 --> 00:19:33.660

obviously like the benefits

00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:34.940

of moving for half an hour

00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.140

a day can't be overstated

00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:38.041

but it was like I had this

00:19:38.181 --> 00:19:39.141

anchor you know I had this

00:19:39.281 --> 00:19:40.262

promise I would keep to

00:19:40.302 --> 00:19:42.282

myself every single day and

00:19:42.302 --> 00:19:43.222

I didn't just immediately

00:19:43.242 --> 00:19:44.463

make you know everything

00:19:44.543 --> 00:19:46.884

wonderful but it it's like

00:19:46.924 --> 00:19:48.084

if you can just start with

00:19:48.184 --> 00:19:49.424

one thing then you you

00:19:49.564 --> 00:19:51.165

naturally usually do build

00:19:51.205 --> 00:19:52.065

on top of that because you

00:19:52.105 --> 00:19:52.905

start like believing

00:19:53.145 --> 00:19:54.406

yourself to be capable and

00:19:55.186 --> 00:19:55.366

you know,

00:19:55.406 --> 00:19:56.527

even just getting some good

00:19:56.607 --> 00:19:57.607

endorphins every day,

00:19:57.647 --> 00:19:59.728

I'm sure was lending itself

00:19:59.768 --> 00:20:00.748

to me then having other

00:20:00.828 --> 00:20:02.489

ideas about how I can

00:20:02.689 --> 00:20:04.050

enhance my the quality of

00:20:04.090 --> 00:20:04.930

my day to day life.

00:20:05.390 --> 00:20:06.531

And I was lucky enough to be

00:20:06.731 --> 00:20:08.011

freelance writing at this

00:20:08.051 --> 00:20:10.592

time I was doing SEO blogging,

00:20:10.632 --> 00:20:11.873

which was also soul destroying,

00:20:11.893 --> 00:20:12.573

but in a different way

00:20:12.593 --> 00:20:13.894

where I could keep my own schedule.

00:20:13.994 --> 00:20:15.834

So I was kind of able to

00:20:15.874 --> 00:20:17.395

like build my life brick by

00:20:17.415 --> 00:20:18.255

brick at that time,

00:20:18.315 --> 00:20:19.476

which I feel grateful for.

00:20:20.040 --> 00:20:20.200

Yeah,

00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:22.182

I'm definitely a fan of the just

00:20:22.222 --> 00:20:24.345

change one thing instead of

00:20:24.385 --> 00:20:25.546

trying to get overwhelmed

00:20:25.566 --> 00:20:26.727

with a list of things that

00:20:26.747 --> 00:20:28.189

you want to be different in your life.

00:20:28.229 --> 00:20:30.051

So I love that you just did

00:20:30.091 --> 00:20:32.294

that thing and that led to other things.

00:20:32.914 --> 00:20:35.437

And also, I liked your comment about,

00:20:35.677 --> 00:20:35.938

you know,

00:20:35.978 --> 00:20:38.180

the the SEO being freelance

00:20:38.561 --> 00:20:40.042

while the work itself maybe

00:20:40.062 --> 00:20:40.963

was a little numbing.

00:20:41.744 --> 00:20:43.505

at least you had some time freedom.

00:20:44.085 --> 00:20:45.825

And I think that not enough

00:20:45.885 --> 00:20:47.386

people appreciate how much

00:20:47.446 --> 00:20:49.306

time freedom has a huge

00:20:49.386 --> 00:20:51.327

impact on your life because

00:20:51.347 --> 00:20:52.607

then you have the ability

00:20:53.187 --> 00:20:54.448

to sort of work on other

00:20:54.488 --> 00:20:56.428

projects or to at least

00:20:56.488 --> 00:20:57.849

have some differentiation

00:20:57.909 --> 00:20:59.749

in your day so that you're

00:20:59.789 --> 00:21:01.110

not constantly on the same

00:21:01.170 --> 00:21:02.430

exact schedule every day.

00:21:02.850 --> 00:21:04.751

So if you have a job that you hate,

00:21:04.771 --> 00:21:06.391

but at least you have time freedom,

00:21:06.892 --> 00:21:07.952

that's a lot better than

00:21:08.272 --> 00:21:09.672

just a job that you hate at

00:21:09.712 --> 00:21:10.873

a location that you hate.

00:21:11.673 --> 00:21:13.195

Yeah, so true.

00:21:13.235 --> 00:21:14.557

Time freedom is everything.

00:21:14.637 --> 00:21:16.539

And it is stressful and

00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:18.681

frustrating the way our

00:21:18.721 --> 00:21:20.924

current systems are keeping people just,

00:21:21.505 --> 00:21:21.765

I mean,

00:21:21.825 --> 00:21:23.847

they're giving all of their life

00:21:23.887 --> 00:21:25.189

force to companies,

00:21:25.529 --> 00:21:27.011

their precious life energy,

00:21:27.051 --> 00:21:28.212

and then people are so

00:21:28.293 --> 00:21:30.355

drained after that.

00:21:30.895 --> 00:21:32.336

I did end up like going back

00:21:32.396 --> 00:21:34.037

to an in-office job for

00:21:34.057 --> 00:21:34.657

like four more years.

00:21:34.697 --> 00:21:37.018

But that feeling of like

00:21:37.038 --> 00:21:39.319

you've technically done a four days work,

00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:40.179

but really you've kind of

00:21:40.239 --> 00:21:41.400

just like mindlessly sat in

00:21:41.420 --> 00:21:42.300

an office for eight hours,

00:21:42.360 --> 00:21:43.361

even if you've done some

00:21:43.401 --> 00:21:44.001

work in that time.

00:21:44.401 --> 00:21:45.002

And then you just have

00:21:45.162 --> 00:21:46.322

nothing left to give at the

00:21:46.362 --> 00:21:46.882

end of the day.

00:21:46.922 --> 00:21:48.683

So you don't have the

00:21:48.723 --> 00:21:50.804

ability to like turn things around.

00:21:50.844 --> 00:21:51.845

It feels like a lot of times

00:21:51.885 --> 00:21:52.985

because it's you're

00:21:53.085 --> 00:21:54.946

understandably just completely sapped.

00:21:55.326 --> 00:21:56.427

That's a hard situation to be in.

00:21:57.150 --> 00:21:57.450

Yeah.

00:21:57.770 --> 00:22:00.031

And I think that the remote situation,

00:22:00.091 --> 00:22:01.252

if you're lucky enough to

00:22:01.292 --> 00:22:02.392

have a job that's remote,

00:22:02.493 --> 00:22:04.593

even a couple of days a week,

00:22:05.134 --> 00:22:06.614

it gives you the ability to like,

00:22:06.875 --> 00:22:08.015

I can be at home and

00:22:08.075 --> 00:22:10.156

tidying while I'm listening

00:22:10.196 --> 00:22:11.136

to a conference call.

00:22:11.216 --> 00:22:12.577

I don't have to be just in

00:22:12.617 --> 00:22:14.578

my cubicle focused on something.

00:22:15.178 --> 00:22:16.799

And I've had a couple of

00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:18.840

jobs where there wasn't

00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:19.820

enough work to do.

00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:20.581

And that's one of the

00:22:20.601 --> 00:22:22.202

situations that I'm in right now.

00:22:22.422 --> 00:22:22.882

And that

00:22:23.402 --> 00:22:25.503

in itself also is equally

00:22:25.704 --> 00:22:27.685

terrible and mind numbing.

00:22:28.285 --> 00:22:29.646

But at least I can work

00:22:29.706 --> 00:22:31.107

remote a lot of the time.

00:22:31.307 --> 00:22:32.648

And then I can be working on

00:22:32.708 --> 00:22:33.789

other projects like this,

00:22:34.249 --> 00:22:35.770

instead of sitting at a

00:22:35.810 --> 00:22:37.131

desk waiting for something

00:22:37.171 --> 00:22:38.132

to happen so that I can

00:22:38.172 --> 00:22:38.952

have something to do.

00:22:38.972 --> 00:22:42.915

So I appreciate your standpoint on that.

00:22:42.935 --> 00:22:43.856

What about you, Tanner?

00:22:43.916 --> 00:22:45.417

What was something that was

00:22:45.437 --> 00:22:46.518

a small change you made

00:22:46.558 --> 00:22:48.099

that maybe later led to

00:22:48.159 --> 00:22:50.120

other things that were super important?

00:22:50.555 --> 00:22:50.877

Um,

00:22:51.017 --> 00:22:53.118

I probably similar to Samantha's I'd

00:22:53.178 --> 00:22:53.658

say the,

00:22:53.698 --> 00:22:55.619

like one of the biggest shifts of

00:22:55.879 --> 00:22:58.161

coming out of Mormonism and

00:22:59.181 --> 00:23:00.082

into the direction that my

00:23:00.122 --> 00:23:01.863

life has taken now is just

00:23:01.903 --> 00:23:03.664

becoming more in touch with my body.

00:23:04.344 --> 00:23:06.566

And like in Mormonism,

00:23:06.887 --> 00:23:10.008

my body was always my enemy at worst,

00:23:10.268 --> 00:23:11.149

or just like

00:23:11.655 --> 00:23:12.035

I don't know,

00:23:12.155 --> 00:23:15.418

sort of an inconvenience at best.

00:23:15.778 --> 00:23:16.838

It was like this thing I had

00:23:16.879 --> 00:23:18.760

to deal with until I get back to heaven.

00:23:18.800 --> 00:23:20.221

And in the meantime,

00:23:20.281 --> 00:23:22.663

just try to punch in the

00:23:22.703 --> 00:23:24.044

clock and do the things and

00:23:24.084 --> 00:23:25.025

make God happy.

00:23:25.625 --> 00:23:28.508

But realizing that my body,

00:23:28.528 --> 00:23:32.991

my experience in this flesh vessel is it.

00:23:33.291 --> 00:23:35.412

For me, it's always going to be this.

00:23:36.053 --> 00:23:37.994

And the way that I feel about it,

00:23:38.054 --> 00:23:39.155

the way that I treat it,

00:23:39.915 --> 00:23:41.356

is going to affect me for

00:23:41.376 --> 00:23:42.297

the rest of my life.

00:23:42.337 --> 00:23:43.938

So it's an ongoing journey

00:23:44.578 --> 00:23:46.760

of like really learning to

00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:49.601

love and listen to myself

00:23:49.661 --> 00:23:51.763

to like understand my

00:23:52.223 --> 00:23:54.825

internal feelings and sensations.

00:23:55.405 --> 00:23:57.006

and to honor my needs and

00:23:57.046 --> 00:24:00.447

desires and to create space

00:24:00.767 --> 00:24:03.908

to express those and to

00:24:04.088 --> 00:24:05.849

seek out the things that are good for me,

00:24:05.889 --> 00:24:07.570

whether that's exercise,

00:24:07.870 --> 00:24:09.330

whether that's making sure

00:24:09.390 --> 00:24:11.171

I'm spending quality time in nature,

00:24:11.551 --> 00:24:13.592

whether that's eating properly, which,

00:24:14.072 --> 00:24:15.813

you know, still an ongoing thing,

00:24:15.853 --> 00:24:17.313

but better than it's been.

00:24:18.053 --> 00:24:19.974

And so, yeah,

00:24:20.074 --> 00:24:22.275

I'd say like embodiment is

00:24:22.375 --> 00:24:24.696

the word of the day for me on that one.

00:24:25.544 --> 00:24:25.704

Yeah,

00:24:25.764 --> 00:24:27.606

I feel like we get taught so much in

00:24:27.646 --> 00:24:29.568

Mormonism to dissociate

00:24:29.588 --> 00:24:31.709

from our bodies and to be

00:24:31.769 --> 00:24:33.071

ashamed of our bodies

00:24:33.131 --> 00:24:33.971

because they're just

00:24:34.031 --> 00:24:35.593

basically a sin factory.

00:24:36.574 --> 00:24:37.314

Whether, you know,

00:24:37.354 --> 00:24:38.756

whether showing my corn

00:24:38.776 --> 00:24:40.997

shoulder over here or, you know,

00:24:41.218 --> 00:24:42.459

or whether trying to deny

00:24:42.499 --> 00:24:43.480

ourselves of basic,

00:24:43.580 --> 00:24:45.822

normal human developmental needs.

00:24:46.203 --> 00:24:47.784

And then also we get taught

00:24:47.824 --> 00:24:49.766

to dissociate from our own feelings.

00:24:50.561 --> 00:24:52.884

And to basically reassign

00:24:53.044 --> 00:24:54.626

our feelings to be some

00:24:54.666 --> 00:24:56.008

kind of a spiritual meaning

00:24:56.068 --> 00:24:57.670

or a connection to the Holy Ghost.

00:24:58.451 --> 00:24:59.673

And I don't know if you guys

00:24:59.693 --> 00:25:00.494

have read this,

00:25:00.594 --> 00:25:01.956

but I just finished reading

00:25:01.996 --> 00:25:03.738

Jeanette McCurdy's I'm Glad

00:25:03.798 --> 00:25:05.561

My Mom's Dead book.

00:25:06.121 --> 00:25:07.022

So amazing.

00:25:07.222 --> 00:25:08.663

And she talks about that,

00:25:08.743 --> 00:25:11.825

how like she was as an eight year old,

00:25:12.045 --> 00:25:13.246

so looking forward to

00:25:13.306 --> 00:25:14.207

hearing the voice of the

00:25:14.247 --> 00:25:16.968

Holy Ghost and praying for it actively.

00:25:17.048 --> 00:25:18.670

And I want to hear it and I

00:25:18.710 --> 00:25:19.630

can't wait to hear it.

00:25:19.710 --> 00:25:21.131

And then when she did hear it,

00:25:21.692 --> 00:25:23.313

what she was attributing to

00:25:23.373 --> 00:25:26.094

be the Holy Ghost was actually OCD.

00:25:26.735 --> 00:25:29.237

And it was it turned into these behaviors,

00:25:29.277 --> 00:25:30.738

these obsessive behaviors.

00:25:30.798 --> 00:25:32.719

But she was glad for them

00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:33.760

because she thought that

00:25:33.780 --> 00:25:34.780

was the Holy Ghost telling

00:25:34.820 --> 00:25:35.381

her what to do.

00:25:36.221 --> 00:25:38.244

And so in Mormonism,

00:25:38.384 --> 00:25:40.106

we get taught that there's

00:25:40.146 --> 00:25:41.448

so much importance on this

00:25:41.588 --> 00:25:44.011

other voice that's coming from God.

00:25:44.172 --> 00:25:45.613

And we stop listening to our

00:25:45.774 --> 00:25:47.336

own instincts and following

00:25:47.396 --> 00:25:49.719

our own instincts about what we need.

00:25:50.239 --> 00:25:51.962

And it sounds like you guys

00:25:52.002 --> 00:25:53.684

can identify with that at least a little.

00:25:55.314 --> 00:25:57.015

Yeah, it definitely has been, I mean,

00:25:57.495 --> 00:25:59.737

a decade long process to

00:25:59.777 --> 00:26:01.858

get more in touch with my

00:26:01.898 --> 00:26:02.919

body and feelings.

00:26:02.979 --> 00:26:05.441

And because I feel like one

00:26:05.461 --> 00:26:06.041

thing we've been talking

00:26:06.061 --> 00:26:06.922

about a lot lately on our

00:26:06.962 --> 00:26:08.443

channel is unshaming work.

00:26:08.523 --> 00:26:11.565

And I feel like you can't deeply,

00:26:11.905 --> 00:26:12.665

you can't connect with

00:26:12.685 --> 00:26:13.546

yourself at the deepest

00:26:13.586 --> 00:26:16.008

level if you won't like

00:26:16.288 --> 00:26:17.669

allow yourself to remove

00:26:18.069 --> 00:26:20.170

the shame that covers a lot

00:26:20.210 --> 00:26:21.872

of the feelings and desires

00:26:21.912 --> 00:26:23.613

and thoughts and stuff that you have.

00:26:23.913 --> 00:26:24.854

Cause you can't bring like

00:26:24.934 --> 00:26:26.575

the level of curiosity you

00:26:26.615 --> 00:26:27.835

need to understand yourself

00:26:27.895 --> 00:26:29.292

if shame is in the way.

00:26:29.457 --> 00:26:29.857

Yeah.

00:26:30.017 --> 00:26:31.297

I think it's such a big part

00:26:31.337 --> 00:26:33.158

of the gospel of, you know,

00:26:33.198 --> 00:26:34.559

the LDS gospel is,

00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:36.480

is like being ashamed of

00:26:36.500 --> 00:26:39.162

who you are because we,

00:26:39.442 --> 00:26:42.083

even though the LDS church talks about,

00:26:42.283 --> 00:26:42.524

you know,

00:26:42.544 --> 00:26:44.585

you're pure until you're eight years old,

00:26:45.085 --> 00:26:45.145

um,

00:26:45.625 --> 00:26:46.927

I feel like there's still a

00:26:46.967 --> 00:26:48.650

lot of shame attached to

00:26:48.690 --> 00:26:51.033

behaviors before you even get baptized.

00:26:51.754 --> 00:26:53.757

And it's like you have to be

00:26:53.797 --> 00:26:55.700

clean in order to get baptized.

00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.002

You have to pass that interview.

00:26:57.042 --> 00:26:57.763

So you have to tell the

00:26:57.803 --> 00:26:59.286

bishop that you're already, you know,

00:26:59.306 --> 00:27:00.587

that you're doing everything right.

00:27:01.368 --> 00:27:02.069

And if you're not,

00:27:02.489 --> 00:27:04.690

there is just basically that shame.

00:27:05.050 --> 00:27:07.152

The whole thing is shame based, you know,

00:27:07.252 --> 00:27:09.113

so we have to go repent

00:27:09.153 --> 00:27:10.694

because we're inherently

00:27:10.734 --> 00:27:12.795

bad and we're never going

00:27:12.815 --> 00:27:13.996

to be as clean as we were

00:27:14.036 --> 00:27:15.397

on the day we were baptized.

00:27:15.497 --> 00:27:16.838

And so then we get to be

00:27:16.918 --> 00:27:18.939

ashamed of ourselves and

00:27:18.979 --> 00:27:20.160

our actions and our bodies

00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:21.881

and everything for the rest of eternity.

00:27:22.521 --> 00:27:24.663

and have this constant need to repent.

00:27:25.183 --> 00:27:28.146

So I don't know what your experience was,

00:27:28.246 --> 00:27:31.208

but when I finally signed

00:27:31.268 --> 00:27:33.350

the paper to resign from

00:27:33.390 --> 00:27:35.832

the church and sent it off,

00:27:36.252 --> 00:27:37.853

I literally did feel shame

00:27:37.913 --> 00:27:38.814

leaving my body.

00:27:39.575 --> 00:27:41.436

I felt like this huge relief

00:27:41.856 --> 00:27:44.619

and release also of all of

00:27:44.739 --> 00:27:46.660

the parts of myself that I

00:27:46.760 --> 00:27:50.723

had repressed or been ashamed of,

00:27:51.724 --> 00:27:53.387

that now I could finally

00:27:53.527 --> 00:27:55.510

allow an equal seat at the table.

00:27:55.751 --> 00:27:56.893

I could finally welcome

00:27:56.913 --> 00:27:58.816

those parts of myself and

00:27:58.876 --> 00:28:00.759

not feel ashamed of them anymore.

00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:02.182

I don't know if you had

00:28:02.242 --> 00:28:03.905

something similar like that.

00:28:04.409 --> 00:28:05.509

I got chills when you said

00:28:05.529 --> 00:28:07.510

that just because it was so relatable.

00:28:07.710 --> 00:28:08.870

I always say that I felt

00:28:08.910 --> 00:28:10.550

like there was this tight

00:28:10.771 --> 00:28:12.851

rope just knotted in my

00:28:12.891 --> 00:28:14.811

stomach for years that I

00:28:14.851 --> 00:28:16.472

had just gotten to the

00:28:16.512 --> 00:28:17.512

point where I didn't even notice.

00:28:17.552 --> 00:28:21.193

It was just a regular aspect of me.

00:28:21.933 --> 00:28:24.474

And then when I left the church,

00:28:24.614 --> 00:28:26.894

I felt it just release and

00:28:26.954 --> 00:28:29.555

I felt relaxed for the first time ever.

00:28:30.116 --> 00:28:31.377

in as long as i could

00:28:31.437 --> 00:28:33.559

remember it was a huge

00:28:33.619 --> 00:28:34.860

weight that was lifted and

00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.701

not just because like oh

00:28:35.741 --> 00:28:37.002

now i can do any bad thing

00:28:37.062 --> 00:28:38.704

i want it was just like i'm

00:28:38.884 --> 00:28:40.746

okay like they've been

00:28:40.786 --> 00:28:42.128

telling me i've been sick

00:28:42.168 --> 00:28:43.149

and they've been you know

00:28:43.189 --> 00:28:44.510

you're horrible you're sick

00:28:44.530 --> 00:28:45.491

you got it you need us so

00:28:45.511 --> 00:28:46.412

that you can be worthy

00:28:46.452 --> 00:28:47.173

again so that you can be

00:28:47.213 --> 00:28:49.695

pure and that was all just malarkey

00:28:52.578 --> 00:28:52.838

Yeah,

00:28:52.858 --> 00:28:55.319

it's like they say that people leave

00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:57.020

the church because they want to sin.

00:28:57.701 --> 00:29:00.182

And if I had to like reframe that,

00:29:00.222 --> 00:29:01.363

it would be like, no,

00:29:01.663 --> 00:29:02.844

I left the church so that I

00:29:02.864 --> 00:29:04.185

could love myself.

00:29:04.205 --> 00:29:04.466

Yep.

00:29:06.378 --> 00:29:08.280

Yeah, I truly love myself, others.

00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:09.120

It was like, oh,

00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:11.122

I don't have to shame myself.

00:29:11.162 --> 00:29:12.463

I don't have to shame other people.

00:29:12.583 --> 00:29:13.944

I don't have to force people

00:29:13.984 --> 00:29:15.085

to try to live the

00:29:15.105 --> 00:29:16.326

standards that I'm trying to force.

00:29:16.366 --> 00:29:17.787

We don't have to do any of this.

00:29:18.688 --> 00:29:19.028

Right.

00:29:19.266 --> 00:29:19.662

benefiting a few

00:29:19.722 --> 00:29:21.643

guys over in Salt Lake, but not me.

00:29:21.684 --> 00:29:23.565

This isn't making me a happier, healthier,

00:29:23.625 --> 00:29:24.486

more loving person.

00:29:24.875 --> 00:29:25.155

Right.

00:29:25.375 --> 00:29:25.936

Exactly.

00:29:26.536 --> 00:29:27.437

And for me, too,

00:29:28.017 --> 00:29:29.198

it was an opportunity to

00:29:29.278 --> 00:29:30.999

finally listen to the ideas

00:29:31.019 --> 00:29:32.180

and experiences of other

00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:33.820

people authentically and

00:29:33.820 --> 00:29:34.758

give their ideas

00:29:34.778 --> 00:29:36.839

and experiences validity

00:29:36.999 --> 00:29:38.160

and meaning rather than

00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:39.821

dismissing it and saying, well,

00:29:40.161 --> 00:29:40.882

aren't you cute?

00:29:40.902 --> 00:29:42.383

You just don't know the whole truth.

00:29:42.603 --> 00:29:44.524

You know, so condescending.

00:29:46.125 --> 00:29:47.326

Such a treat to be able to

00:29:47.386 --> 00:29:48.487

listen to the experiences

00:29:48.547 --> 00:29:50.288

of others for the first time.

00:29:50.298 --> 00:29:51.130

to accept

00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:53.352

other philosophical ideals

00:29:53.412 --> 00:29:55.033

and other religious ideas

00:29:55.213 --> 00:29:57.094

and other tools from other

00:29:57.155 --> 00:30:00.097

spiritual modalities to be

00:30:00.137 --> 00:30:01.317

able to look at them and say, oh,

00:30:01.357 --> 00:30:02.398

there's some value in that.

00:30:02.438 --> 00:30:03.739

There's something important there.

00:30:03.859 --> 00:30:04.760

I like that idea.

00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:06.041

I think, you know,

00:30:06.101 --> 00:30:08.362

that's valid rather than to

00:30:08.402 --> 00:30:09.343

just dismiss it because

00:30:09.383 --> 00:30:12.005

it's not the ideal that we got taught.

00:30:12.025 --> 00:30:12.105

Yeah.

00:30:13.194 --> 00:30:13.634

Mm-hmm.

00:30:13.674 --> 00:30:17.037

Didn't come from Salt Lake City, Utah,

00:30:17.077 --> 00:30:19.378

so therefore can't possibly be true.

00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:19.999

Yeah,

00:30:20.019 --> 00:30:21.460

if an old white dude didn't say it

00:30:21.500 --> 00:30:24.422

from the pulpit, then it's not valid.

00:30:24.442 --> 00:30:24.863

Doesn't count.

00:30:24.883 --> 00:30:26.324

Doesn't count.

00:30:27.205 --> 00:30:29.246

I had this one really powerful moment,

00:30:29.406 --> 00:30:29.947

actually,

00:30:30.707 --> 00:30:33.229

when I was sort of reviewing

00:30:33.309 --> 00:30:34.951

some of my shelf items,

00:30:35.291 --> 00:30:36.492

kind of going back and thinking,

00:30:36.852 --> 00:30:38.253

what were some of the things that...

00:30:38.594 --> 00:30:40.435

Made me start questioning my faith.

00:30:40.695 --> 00:30:42.056

And I think the biggest one

00:30:42.116 --> 00:30:44.037

for me or the first big one

00:30:44.077 --> 00:30:46.058

for me was the November,

00:30:46.098 --> 00:30:49.219

twenty fifteen policy when that came out.

00:30:49.539 --> 00:30:51.280

And I remember having this

00:30:51.340 --> 00:30:52.881

really emotional experience

00:30:53.441 --> 00:30:55.722

when the policy was read from the pulpit.

00:30:56.511 --> 00:30:57.612

Because at the time I was a

00:30:57.652 --> 00:30:58.914

choir teacher and I had

00:30:58.934 --> 00:31:00.175

been bringing my students

00:31:00.275 --> 00:31:01.696

to church to sing on

00:31:01.737 --> 00:31:02.738

Christmas and Easter.

00:31:03.458 --> 00:31:06.241

And I taught a lot of LGBTQ students.

00:31:06.522 --> 00:31:09.104

And I was thinking to myself, you know,

00:31:09.204 --> 00:31:11.046

how can I now invite them

00:31:11.347 --> 00:31:14.109

into the church knowing how harmful,

00:31:14.190 --> 00:31:15.671

how openly harmful the

00:31:15.711 --> 00:31:18.434

church is towards the LGBTQ population?

00:31:19.095 --> 00:31:21.717

And I just kept thinking to myself, like,

00:31:21.837 --> 00:31:23.398

if I identify myself with

00:31:23.438 --> 00:31:24.538

this organization,

00:31:24.918 --> 00:31:26.119

my students are not dumb.

00:31:26.139 --> 00:31:26.799

They're going to look at

00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:28.921

that and they're going to say, okay, well,

00:31:28.961 --> 00:31:30.101

she's a part of this church

00:31:30.121 --> 00:31:31.322

that doesn't like us.

00:31:31.762 --> 00:31:33.123

So maybe she doesn't like us

00:31:33.163 --> 00:31:34.504

and we can't trust her either.

00:31:35.184 --> 00:31:37.145

That was one of my really big things.

00:31:37.305 --> 00:31:38.306

And when I was going back

00:31:38.346 --> 00:31:39.468

through it in therapy,

00:31:39.862 --> 00:31:42.384

sorry to be self-referential right now,

00:31:42.404 --> 00:31:45.566

but I'm just like having this mind block.

00:31:45.626 --> 00:31:46.586

I need to talk about it.

00:31:47.427 --> 00:31:47.787

When I,

00:31:48.007 --> 00:31:50.349

when I was going through processing

00:31:50.389 --> 00:31:51.249

that in therapy,

00:31:51.289 --> 00:31:52.350

why I was feeling so

00:31:52.390 --> 00:31:53.891

terrible about that policy,

00:31:54.691 --> 00:31:56.532

it was because I had this,

00:31:57.033 --> 00:31:58.714

this vision when I was processing it,

00:31:58.774 --> 00:32:00.095

I had this vision of all my

00:32:00.155 --> 00:32:01.015

parts at the table.

00:32:01.055 --> 00:32:01.856

This is kind of how I

00:32:01.896 --> 00:32:03.877

envisioned myself is like this,

00:32:04.137 --> 00:32:06.339

We all have a seat at this oval table.

00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:08.440

And when the twenty fifteen

00:32:08.461 --> 00:32:09.561

policy was announced,

00:32:09.802 --> 00:32:11.503

it was like the bisexual

00:32:11.523 --> 00:32:12.564

part of me stood up.

00:32:13.145 --> 00:32:14.526

And wanted to say something,

00:32:14.886 --> 00:32:16.107

but even at that time,

00:32:16.287 --> 00:32:17.448

I still could not admit

00:32:17.488 --> 00:32:19.551

that I was bisexual and she

00:32:19.591 --> 00:32:20.892

still didn't get to have a voice.

00:32:21.452 --> 00:32:22.453

She was just standing there

00:32:22.493 --> 00:32:24.114

waiting for me to acknowledge her.

00:32:24.775 --> 00:32:25.676

And I still couldn't.

00:32:26.456 --> 00:32:27.837

And so when I finally did

00:32:27.877 --> 00:32:30.699

leave the church and that shame left,

00:32:31.580 --> 00:32:32.840

it was like she was finally

00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:34.601

allowed to speak and she

00:32:34.641 --> 00:32:35.481

had a lot to say.

00:32:36.461 --> 00:32:38.902

And she was finally able to

00:32:38.922 --> 00:32:39.802

like release all the

00:32:39.842 --> 00:32:41.182

emotions that she'd been

00:32:41.632 --> 00:32:42.783

repressing that whole time.

00:32:42.803 --> 00:32:43.803

And she finally felt like

00:32:43.823 --> 00:32:44.643

she had a voice and an

00:32:44.763 --> 00:32:45.764

equal seat at the table.

00:32:45.904 --> 00:32:46.824

And so for me,

00:32:46.904 --> 00:32:48.464

definitely leaving the

00:32:48.504 --> 00:32:49.665

church was about loving and

00:32:49.705 --> 00:32:50.725

accepting all those parts

00:32:50.765 --> 00:32:52.906

of myself and being able to

00:32:52.946 --> 00:32:54.126

let go of the shame that

00:32:54.206 --> 00:32:56.226

was placed upon me because

00:32:56.266 --> 00:32:57.907

I didn't fit into that Mormon box.

00:32:58.437 --> 00:33:00.438

Did you ever,

00:33:00.458 --> 00:33:01.939

did you have that shame

00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:04.161

return at any later point?

00:33:04.481 --> 00:33:06.142

Like, it sounds like once you resigned,

00:33:06.162 --> 00:33:07.963

there was a shedding, but did you,

00:33:08.164 --> 00:33:09.424

have you had to like battle

00:33:09.504 --> 00:33:11.546

it popping back up and like

00:33:11.906 --> 00:33:13.547

driving the car again at times?

00:33:15.148 --> 00:33:15.768

Not really,

00:33:16.588 --> 00:33:19.289

because along with releasing

00:33:19.329 --> 00:33:21.850

the shame that I felt for

00:33:22.730 --> 00:33:23.630

all the parts of me that

00:33:23.650 --> 00:33:25.391

were not acceptable in Mormonism,

00:33:25.571 --> 00:33:27.811

I also released the

00:33:28.072 --> 00:33:29.712

importance of anyone else's

00:33:29.772 --> 00:33:31.192

opinion about who I am.

00:33:31.933 --> 00:33:33.353

No longer having to report

00:33:33.373 --> 00:33:35.474

to a bishop to be declared

00:33:35.514 --> 00:33:37.874

worthy to go to the temple

00:33:38.194 --> 00:33:40.055

and no longer having to

00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:42.431

talk about my experiences in

00:33:42.471 --> 00:33:44.393

an edited way in church.

00:33:45.313 --> 00:33:46.434

Now I can talk about my

00:33:46.474 --> 00:33:47.795

experiences in a completely

00:33:47.896 --> 00:33:49.717

unedited way with a brand

00:33:49.777 --> 00:33:51.939

new lens of there was never

00:33:51.979 --> 00:33:52.860

anything wrong with me.

00:33:54.580 --> 00:33:54.860

You know,

00:33:55.180 --> 00:33:56.521

what was wrong was the culture

00:33:56.541 --> 00:33:57.241

that I was in.

00:33:57.321 --> 00:33:59.422

So the shame that I felt in

00:33:59.442 --> 00:34:01.523

the past came a lot from, you know,

00:34:01.584 --> 00:34:03.244

me shaming myself for not fitting in,

00:34:03.284 --> 00:34:04.265

but it also came from

00:34:04.385 --> 00:34:05.465

having to report to other

00:34:05.485 --> 00:34:06.386

authority figures,

00:34:06.946 --> 00:34:08.047

knowing that I would be

00:34:08.107 --> 00:34:10.128

unacceptable to them and to

00:34:10.168 --> 00:34:11.348

certain family members and

00:34:11.388 --> 00:34:12.009

things like that.

00:34:12.089 --> 00:34:15.170

So I wonder that for you guys too,

00:34:15.230 --> 00:34:17.312

about not having to feel

00:34:17.372 --> 00:34:20.153

like you had to ask someone

00:34:20.233 --> 00:34:21.414

else for your worthiness

00:34:22.154 --> 00:34:23.374

Did you feel a level of

00:34:23.454 --> 00:34:25.715

personal worthiness return

00:34:25.735 --> 00:34:27.586

when you finally left?

00:34:27.606 --> 00:34:28.466

I feel like that had to have

00:34:28.486 --> 00:34:29.906

been more of an intense

00:34:29.926 --> 00:34:30.666

phenomenon for you because

00:34:30.706 --> 00:34:31.486

you were raised in it.

00:34:32.387 --> 00:34:32.707

Yeah.

00:34:33.347 --> 00:34:36.047

And, you know, I, in the church,

00:34:36.207 --> 00:34:38.148

had strived really hard to

00:34:38.188 --> 00:34:40.828

be worthy in all aspects.

00:34:40.848 --> 00:34:42.508

Like, I always had a temple recommend,

00:34:42.588 --> 00:34:43.749

always took the sacrament.

00:34:44.182 --> 00:34:45.443

But even so,

00:34:45.583 --> 00:34:48.265

it was to stay out of trouble

00:34:48.325 --> 00:34:49.766

and I was always hyper

00:34:49.806 --> 00:34:51.127

vigilant about everything I

00:34:51.147 --> 00:34:52.087

was doing and everything

00:34:52.127 --> 00:34:53.808

that I was watching and

00:34:53.969 --> 00:34:55.250

everything happening in my

00:34:55.290 --> 00:34:56.610

body because at any moment

00:34:56.671 --> 00:34:57.531

I could be betrayed by

00:34:57.571 --> 00:34:59.953

myself and be on the devil's path.

00:35:00.694 --> 00:35:01.134

Like I said,

00:35:01.174 --> 00:35:02.215

letting go of all of that was

00:35:02.235 --> 00:35:03.976

just this great release.

00:35:05.058 --> 00:35:07.300

easing back into just being

00:35:07.881 --> 00:35:08.762

and I love that you brought

00:35:08.802 --> 00:35:11.024

up the November policy that

00:35:11.064 --> 00:35:13.106

was the reason we had like

00:35:13.867 --> 00:35:15.128

left the church stopped

00:35:15.168 --> 00:35:16.149

attending the church and

00:35:16.169 --> 00:35:17.110

we're speaking out about it

00:35:17.130 --> 00:35:18.571

but it wasn't until that

00:35:18.611 --> 00:35:19.692

policy that I was like I

00:35:19.712 --> 00:35:21.214

don't even want my name

00:35:21.374 --> 00:35:23.396

associated with this organization

00:35:24.296 --> 00:35:26.016

And a lot of the commentary

00:35:26.577 --> 00:35:30.257

that we see now against LGBTQ plus people,

00:35:30.437 --> 00:35:31.778

against trans people, you know,

00:35:32.398 --> 00:35:34.118

they frame it as like the

00:35:34.198 --> 00:35:36.479

gender ideology movement

00:35:36.539 --> 00:35:37.379

that's taking in.

00:35:37.399 --> 00:35:38.879

And it's not really about gender.

00:35:38.899 --> 00:35:40.786

It's not really about orientation.

00:35:41.086 --> 00:35:42.586

It really is about shame,

00:35:42.946 --> 00:35:44.607

about you are supposed to

00:35:44.627 --> 00:35:46.527

be this specific ideal

00:35:46.547 --> 00:35:48.767

thing that most people aren't, right?

00:35:48.807 --> 00:35:50.788

Like most men aren't the...

00:35:51.348 --> 00:35:55.071

six-foot-five, fully jacked, and, you know,

00:35:55.531 --> 00:35:58.273

like, massive chin and delts, like,

00:35:58.293 --> 00:35:58.594

you know.

00:35:58.654 --> 00:35:59.614

Mewing every moment.

00:35:59.634 --> 00:36:00.315

Mewing, yeah, exactly.

00:36:01.276 --> 00:36:02.617

It's like most people just aren't that.

00:36:02.897 --> 00:36:04.078

But there's this idea that

00:36:04.098 --> 00:36:04.738

that's what you are

00:36:04.798 --> 00:36:05.699

supposed to be and that

00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:06.580

you're supposed to go off

00:36:06.600 --> 00:36:08.141

to war and fight the

00:36:08.201 --> 00:36:10.223

terrorists and work in the

00:36:10.263 --> 00:36:11.383

factory and do all these

00:36:11.444 --> 00:36:12.484

old-timey things that help

00:36:12.584 --> 00:36:14.086

the shame economy function.

00:36:14.146 --> 00:36:14.186

Mm.

00:36:14.866 --> 00:36:16.167

And everybody for

00:36:16.227 --> 00:36:18.388

generations has carried the

00:36:18.408 --> 00:36:19.688

shame that they're not

00:36:19.748 --> 00:36:20.549

living up to that thing,

00:36:20.569 --> 00:36:21.549

that they're supposed to be

00:36:21.589 --> 00:36:21.989

something else,

00:36:22.009 --> 00:36:22.790

that they're supposed to

00:36:22.830 --> 00:36:25.211

fall in line with these traditional,

00:36:25.491 --> 00:36:27.112

that is to say, like, uh,

00:36:27.132 --> 00:36:27.972

they're not traditional at

00:36:28.032 --> 00:36:29.033

all is what I'm saying,

00:36:29.113 --> 00:36:31.014

but these relatively recent

00:36:31.254 --> 00:36:34.135

and Western American white

00:36:34.335 --> 00:36:35.475

Anglo-Saxon Protestant

00:36:35.596 --> 00:36:38.357

ideas about gender and orientation and,

00:36:38.657 --> 00:36:38.917

uh,

00:36:39.157 --> 00:36:40.298

self presentation and

00:36:40.359 --> 00:36:41.440

expression and all that.

00:36:42.020 --> 00:36:43.081

And it's just this thing

00:36:43.102 --> 00:36:44.023

that gets passed on from

00:36:44.083 --> 00:36:45.144

generation to generation

00:36:45.164 --> 00:36:46.065

that you're supposed to be

00:36:46.105 --> 00:36:47.006

this thing and you're not.

00:36:47.346 --> 00:36:48.788

And you just have to live with the weight,

00:36:48.928 --> 00:36:51.391

the crushing weight of that at all times.