Jonathan's Journey Out of the LDS Church, Addiction, and the Mormon Breeding Ground for Narcissism

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.168

check hello

00:00:01.188 --> 00:00:02.609

beautiful humans welcome to

00:00:02.629 --> 00:00:04.250

the midlife revolution i'm

00:00:04.270 --> 00:00:05.550

your host megan connor and

00:00:05.590 --> 00:00:07.692

today i have a wonderful

00:00:07.732 --> 00:00:09.473

guest who is going to

00:00:10.093 --> 00:00:11.774

enlighten us about some of

00:00:11.794 --> 00:00:12.575

the problematic

00:00:13.546 --> 00:00:15.727

dynamics within high demand religion.

00:00:16.408 --> 00:00:17.328

This is a subject I've been

00:00:17.368 --> 00:00:18.829

wanting to talk about for a

00:00:18.869 --> 00:00:19.710

really long time.

00:00:20.650 --> 00:00:22.011

I spent my entire life

00:00:22.051 --> 00:00:23.952

surrounded by narcissists

00:00:24.012 --> 00:00:24.612

and people with

00:00:24.753 --> 00:00:26.474

narcissistic personality traits.

00:00:27.154 --> 00:00:27.974

And I've long been

00:00:28.034 --> 00:00:29.175

passionate about trying to

00:00:29.235 --> 00:00:30.296

help people learn and

00:00:30.376 --> 00:00:32.157

understand more about these traits

00:00:32.339 --> 00:00:34.181

how you can successfully

00:00:34.241 --> 00:00:35.422

navigate relationships with

00:00:35.463 --> 00:00:36.905

people even when they

00:00:37.005 --> 00:00:38.887

exhibit narcissistic traits.

00:00:39.408 --> 00:00:39.829

Also,

00:00:40.259 --> 00:00:41.680

I'm equally passionate about

00:00:41.760 --> 00:00:43.801

teaching people the skills

00:00:43.921 --> 00:00:44.741

and the tools that they

00:00:44.801 --> 00:00:46.582

need to use to defend

00:00:46.642 --> 00:00:48.263

against narcissistic

00:00:48.303 --> 00:00:50.403

personality traits and the

00:00:50.443 --> 00:00:52.765

ways in which these show up in our lives,

00:00:52.825 --> 00:00:53.745

in our relationships.

00:00:55.209 --> 00:00:56.149

Okay, so John,

00:00:56.390 --> 00:00:58.070

welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

00:00:58.290 --> 00:01:00.231

I met John on TikTok and you

00:01:00.271 --> 00:01:01.212

go by House of

00:01:01.252 --> 00:01:02.953

Deconstruction there on TikTok, right?

00:01:02.973 --> 00:01:04.173

That's right.

00:01:04.573 --> 00:01:05.154

Glad to be here.

00:01:05.214 --> 00:01:06.414

So tell us a little bit

00:01:06.494 --> 00:01:08.315

about your background and

00:01:08.635 --> 00:01:09.656

how you got here.

00:01:10.856 --> 00:01:12.417

Yeah, well, it's quite the journey,

00:01:12.917 --> 00:01:13.958

but that's the beauty of it.

00:01:14.578 --> 00:01:15.598

Let's see.

00:01:15.638 --> 00:01:16.659

I'm thirty eight.

00:01:17.939 --> 00:01:18.700

And let's see,

00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:21.501

I was a junior at BYU when I

00:01:21.541 --> 00:01:23.262

first started questioning

00:01:24.140 --> 00:01:26.501

And it, it unraveled pretty quickly,

00:01:26.821 --> 00:01:27.341

I would say.

00:01:27.861 --> 00:01:30.510

And, it was a struggle.

00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:31.126

I think, you know,

00:01:31.146 --> 00:01:32.986

I've talked to some of my

00:01:33.006 --> 00:01:33.766

other friends who were at

00:01:33.786 --> 00:01:35.667

BYU at the time and we all

00:01:35.687 --> 00:01:37.127

kind of left together.

00:01:37.487 --> 00:01:41.788

And unless you really fill that void with,

00:01:42.088 --> 00:01:43.442

with, with purpose,

00:01:43.449 --> 00:01:44.769

you can get swept away in a

00:01:44.809 --> 00:01:45.529

lot of different things.

00:01:46.749 --> 00:01:49.010

And I kind of was, good and bad, uh,

00:01:49.090 --> 00:01:49.330

but.

00:01:49.922 --> 00:01:51.283

You know, over the past ten years,

00:01:51.483 --> 00:01:55.726

I struggled with alcoholism, addiction,

00:01:56.727 --> 00:01:59.248

and just really finding who

00:01:59.349 --> 00:02:00.990

I was and what all this

00:02:01.050 --> 00:02:04.192

means once you leave the church.

00:02:04.452 --> 00:02:06.455

And that's led me to a lot of, you know,

00:02:06.535 --> 00:02:09.657

deconstructing, changing the way I think,

00:02:10.057 --> 00:02:11.638

meeting different types of people,

00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:13.600

just really experiencing

00:02:13.660 --> 00:02:14.461

life to the fullest,

00:02:14.501 --> 00:02:16.022

both the good and the bad, right?

00:02:17.073 --> 00:02:18.994

And that was going well.

00:02:19.374 --> 00:02:22.036

And I'd kind of felt like I'd, I'd hit, um,

00:02:22.056 --> 00:02:23.217

some breakthroughs and I

00:02:23.237 --> 00:02:26.299

was feeling really good, very sober, um,

00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:27.699

felt like I'd conquered that.

00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:31.101

And I wanted to reach out

00:02:31.141 --> 00:02:33.723

and kind of talk to other

00:02:33.943 --> 00:02:36.044

ex Mormons and kind of give

00:02:36.064 --> 00:02:36.845

them some tips.

00:02:36.925 --> 00:02:38.005

Cause it had been, you know,

00:02:38.025 --> 00:02:39.366

it's been twelve, thirteen years.

00:02:40.055 --> 00:02:40.996

where I've learned a lot.

00:02:41.256 --> 00:02:42.377

And what I was seeing on Tik

00:02:42.397 --> 00:02:43.337

TOK was a lot of people who

00:02:43.357 --> 00:02:44.278

had just left the church.

00:02:44.318 --> 00:02:45.158

And so I was like, Hey,

00:02:45.338 --> 00:02:46.239

I could have really used

00:02:46.259 --> 00:02:47.200

some help when I was

00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:49.141

leaving the church and

00:02:49.281 --> 00:02:50.842

after to kind of understand that.

00:02:50.882 --> 00:02:52.583

So I started making videos

00:02:52.763 --> 00:02:53.964

obviously like a lot of us do.

00:02:54.385 --> 00:02:56.766

but more so geared towards how to

00:02:56.966 --> 00:03:00.168

navigate it with some compassion and,

00:03:00.449 --> 00:03:01.209

and love there.

00:03:02.050 --> 00:03:03.631

And I was really excited about it.

00:03:04.031 --> 00:03:04.780

And then,

00:03:04.812 --> 00:03:06.053

what was that about six months ago?

00:03:06.859 --> 00:03:08.680

And then life really kind of

00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:10.864

slapped me in the face and in a good way.

00:03:10.964 --> 00:03:12.304

It's led to a lot of

00:03:12.726 --> 00:03:14.908

awakenings and unblocking things.

00:03:15.228 --> 00:03:16.856

And I was actually with my

00:03:17.336 --> 00:03:19.518

previous partner, girlfriend,

00:03:19.558 --> 00:03:21.319

who I thought was going to be, you know,

00:03:21.359 --> 00:03:21.939

she was the one,

00:03:21.999 --> 00:03:22.980

she was not raised in the

00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:24.781

church therapist.

00:03:24.821 --> 00:03:26.322

We had amazing conversations.

00:03:26.342 --> 00:03:27.303

We'd get really deep.

00:03:27.704 --> 00:03:29.625

And I have to say, you know, a lot of,

00:03:29.918 --> 00:03:31.479

what I'm going to talk to today,

00:03:31.720 --> 00:03:33.241

I owe to her and actually

00:03:33.361 --> 00:03:35.222

listening to her and

00:03:35.342 --> 00:03:37.044

understanding her perspective,

00:03:37.084 --> 00:03:39.305

which is what is so crucial

00:03:39.325 --> 00:03:41.146

that we men are going to need to do.

00:03:41.186 --> 00:03:41.747

And we should have been

00:03:41.787 --> 00:03:42.848

doing this whole time is

00:03:42.968 --> 00:03:45.049

really listening and trying

00:03:45.069 --> 00:03:46.551

to put ourselves in female

00:03:46.571 --> 00:03:49.032

shoes because it is a different reality.

00:03:50.333 --> 00:03:53.495

And so I realized that I had

00:03:54.842 --> 00:03:56.603

I'd lost this person that I

00:03:56.623 --> 00:03:57.604

thought was going to be

00:03:57.904 --> 00:03:59.224

that that special person.

00:03:59.805 --> 00:04:01.386

And I realized that it was

00:04:01.566 --> 00:04:02.366

it was my fault.

00:04:02.726 --> 00:04:04.207

And I had hurt her.

00:04:04.770 --> 00:04:06.509

And it kind of came, you know,

00:04:06.529 --> 00:04:07.269

we're going back and forth

00:04:07.289 --> 00:04:07.930

towards the end.

00:04:08.050 --> 00:04:09.651

And I finally accepted, okay,

00:04:09.691 --> 00:04:10.911

this woman is no longer

00:04:10.931 --> 00:04:11.772

going to be in my life.

00:04:12.172 --> 00:04:13.533

She's not a part of my future,

00:04:13.673 --> 00:04:14.293

which was tough.

00:04:14.893 --> 00:04:16.314

But we all you know, that happens.

00:04:16.494 --> 00:04:17.755

And so I was just

00:04:18.587 --> 00:04:20.007

I tried to start manifesting

00:04:20.067 --> 00:04:21.768

and getting back into a

00:04:21.848 --> 00:04:23.188

routine and really trying

00:04:23.248 --> 00:04:25.248

to get on the right path again.

00:04:25.668 --> 00:04:27.681

And I imagined if I had

00:04:27.921 --> 00:04:30.222

everything I wanted and I imagined what,

00:04:30.362 --> 00:04:31.802

what a day that would look like.

00:04:31.842 --> 00:04:33.694

And I realized that I was

00:04:33.754 --> 00:04:34.874

still going to be stuck

00:04:35.234 --> 00:04:37.894

with me and stuck with this mind.

00:04:38.795 --> 00:04:40.915

And I didn't want that.

00:04:41.135 --> 00:04:41.355

I didn't,

00:04:41.811 --> 00:04:43.052

didn't want to really be

00:04:43.092 --> 00:04:45.993

here anymore because I and

00:04:46.093 --> 00:04:47.894

I realized then I didn't

00:04:48.574 --> 00:04:50.655

really like who I was.

00:04:51.235 --> 00:04:52.976

And that got me thinking, you know,

00:04:52.996 --> 00:04:53.736

there's just so many

00:04:53.896 --> 00:04:55.157

different things where I

00:04:55.237 --> 00:04:57.098

acted a certain way that I

00:04:57.138 --> 00:04:58.158

couldn't understand how

00:04:58.238 --> 00:04:59.139

other people acted.

00:05:00.289 --> 00:05:02.771

And so I started to seek, um, you know,

00:05:02.811 --> 00:05:04.732

we had her and I had talked about,

00:05:04.912 --> 00:05:05.152

you know,

00:05:05.312 --> 00:05:06.693

our parents and they were kind

00:05:06.713 --> 00:05:08.373

of narcissists and my dad

00:05:08.414 --> 00:05:09.774

for sure was a narcissist

00:05:10.495 --> 00:05:11.715

and you never think that's

00:05:11.735 --> 00:05:12.456

going to be you.

00:05:12.637 --> 00:05:15.498

Um, but I, I was desperate and, um,

00:05:15.538 --> 00:05:16.419

my world had kind of

00:05:16.459 --> 00:05:19.960

collapsed and it wasn't working for me.

00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:21.661

And I, I didn't realize I was,

00:05:21.701 --> 00:05:23.062

but I took some assessments.

00:05:23.216 --> 00:05:24.576

And I scored pretty high for

00:05:24.656 --> 00:05:26.877

narcissistic personality disorder.

00:05:27.237 --> 00:05:29.557

And so that got me thinking.

00:05:29.597 --> 00:05:30.958

And I answered him really honestly.

00:05:32.518 --> 00:05:33.618

And I think that's crucial.

00:05:34.238 --> 00:05:35.698

And so I scored pretty high

00:05:35.718 --> 00:05:36.258

on a few of them.

00:05:36.278 --> 00:05:37.179

And I was like, okay.

00:05:38.019 --> 00:05:39.239

And then I went on TikTok

00:05:39.259 --> 00:05:41.239

and I found other men who

00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.340

were diagnosed narcissists

00:05:43.460 --> 00:05:44.500

who would talk about it.

00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:47.980

And I found one in particular.

00:05:48.615 --> 00:05:48.935

And I...

00:05:49.968 --> 00:05:51.268

I listened to everything he

00:05:51.308 --> 00:05:53.089

said and I agreed with,

00:05:53.409 --> 00:05:55.729

resonated with and thought

00:05:56.089 --> 00:05:58.610

the same as he did about eighty percent.

00:05:59.950 --> 00:06:01.410

And I was like, OK,

00:06:01.570 --> 00:06:03.910

but that really helped me

00:06:03.970 --> 00:06:04.971

because it made me

00:06:05.031 --> 00:06:07.331

understand what narcissism is.

00:06:08.251 --> 00:06:08.911

And really,

00:06:09.031 --> 00:06:11.732

it's just it's a lot of shame

00:06:12.852 --> 00:06:15.152

and it's a lack of ability

00:06:15.312 --> 00:06:17.213

to self-validate.

00:06:18.095 --> 00:06:19.676

and to love yourself.

00:06:20.917 --> 00:06:22.258

And that it's simply

00:06:22.859 --> 00:06:23.839

basically a coping

00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:26.301

mechanism of how you were

00:06:26.361 --> 00:06:28.282

raised and how to feel safe,

00:06:28.863 --> 00:06:29.783

how to feel seen.

00:06:30.664 --> 00:06:31.845

And some of those behaviors

00:06:31.885 --> 00:06:33.226

become maladaptive as you

00:06:33.266 --> 00:06:34.007

become an adult.

00:06:35.849 --> 00:06:38.641

And that honestly really, really helped.

00:06:38.841 --> 00:06:40.322

I felt a little bit of

00:06:40.382 --> 00:06:43.505

relief and I hate that it took.

00:06:44.349 --> 00:06:45.269

hurting someone you really,

00:06:45.309 --> 00:06:48.411

really love to get to that point.

00:06:48.571 --> 00:06:50.172

But we got to talk about the tough things.

00:06:50.992 --> 00:06:53.954

And I think this is a way

00:06:53.974 --> 00:06:55.614

where hopefully other men

00:06:56.275 --> 00:06:58.956

can see this because honestly, right now,

00:06:59.036 --> 00:07:00.237

how Mormons are raised,

00:07:00.257 --> 00:07:01.638

how most of men are raised

00:07:01.678 --> 00:07:03.618

in the patriarchy and the

00:07:03.678 --> 00:07:04.939

entitlement that we feel,

00:07:05.219 --> 00:07:06.100

if I were a woman,

00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:08.491

I wouldn't want any part of it.

00:07:08.652 --> 00:07:10.634

And so this movement of women saying,

00:07:10.694 --> 00:07:11.935

you know, we don't need men.

00:07:11.995 --> 00:07:12.476

You don't.

00:07:12.996 --> 00:07:13.677

You don't at all.

00:07:14.566 --> 00:07:16.046

and kind of figuring out

00:07:16.206 --> 00:07:17.487

this was really really

00:07:17.587 --> 00:07:19.267

eye-opening and that's not

00:07:19.287 --> 00:07:21.668

to say that everyone all

00:07:21.728 --> 00:07:23.189

men here are narcissists

00:07:23.249 --> 00:07:24.909

but we all have it a little

00:07:24.929 --> 00:07:26.169

bit and there's a spectrum

00:07:26.669 --> 00:07:28.190

and my hope is that i think

00:07:28.390 --> 00:07:29.430

in the coming years as

00:07:29.530 --> 00:07:30.770

information just is so

00:07:30.871 --> 00:07:32.291

rapid that we're going to

00:07:32.331 --> 00:07:33.978

talk about narcissism

00:07:34.098 --> 00:07:35.079

the same way we talk about

00:07:35.159 --> 00:07:37.119

addiction with a lot more

00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:39.820

empathy and understanding that

00:07:40.339 --> 00:07:41.319

people get addicted because

00:07:41.339 --> 00:07:42.340

they're hurt and they're

00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:43.081

trying to soothe.

00:07:44.422 --> 00:07:45.435

And that's where I think

00:07:45.743 --> 00:07:49.186

narcissism can play a role here.

00:07:49.726 --> 00:07:51.047

And obviously there's a big spectrum,

00:07:51.407 --> 00:07:51.607

right?

00:07:51.647 --> 00:07:53.128

There are some narcissists

00:07:53.209 --> 00:07:55.070

out there that are just so

00:07:55.110 --> 00:07:59.133

far gone that there's no real hope,

00:07:59.153 --> 00:07:59.533

I think.

00:07:59.753 --> 00:08:01.114

But I think it's a lot more

00:08:01.174 --> 00:08:02.095

nuanced to that.

00:08:02.315 --> 00:08:04.650

And I think a lot of guys out there

00:08:05.134 --> 00:08:05.594

that are,

00:08:05.674 --> 00:08:07.376

that have narcissistic tendencies

00:08:07.416 --> 00:08:08.337

have no idea.

00:08:08.977 --> 00:08:10.266

And I can kind of give, uh,

00:08:10.366 --> 00:08:11.947

input and light what that

00:08:12.067 --> 00:08:13.268

feels like from my

00:08:13.328 --> 00:08:14.969

perspective as the abuser,

00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:18.873

or I didn't think I was at all, but, uh,

00:08:18.913 --> 00:08:21.174

going back through it, I absolutely was.

00:08:21.475 --> 00:08:24.097

And once you figure that out

00:08:24.217 --> 00:08:25.898

and you have that self-awareness,

00:08:26.499 --> 00:08:27.940

then the healing can come.

00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:30.842

And I have to say in the past six months,

00:08:31.142 --> 00:08:32.984

I did a lot of healing,

00:08:33.044 --> 00:08:34.205

some inner child work.

00:08:34.330 --> 00:08:35.752

confronting this narcissism.

00:08:36.653 --> 00:08:38.654

And I can tell you that that

00:08:38.694 --> 00:08:41.657

is the greatest joy I've ever felt.

00:08:42.558 --> 00:08:43.739

And it felt like for the

00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:44.740

first time in my life,

00:08:44.800 --> 00:08:47.002

joy was accessible from within.

00:08:48.023 --> 00:08:50.265

And it opens up a whole new

00:08:50.305 --> 00:08:51.767

world that I really don't

00:08:51.787 --> 00:08:54.009

think a lot of men even know is there.

00:08:54.912 --> 00:08:55.893

because of the way we're

00:08:55.933 --> 00:08:57.674

raised and because of the

00:08:57.714 --> 00:08:59.475

differences and how the

00:08:59.515 --> 00:09:01.477

patriarchy and the church is set up,

00:09:01.977 --> 00:09:03.418

it creates a lot of blind

00:09:03.458 --> 00:09:04.959

spots and a lot of

00:09:05.019 --> 00:09:05.980

subconscious things that

00:09:06.020 --> 00:09:07.441

you're not even aware of

00:09:07.981 --> 00:09:10.163

that really block your happiness.

00:09:10.483 --> 00:09:12.605

And once again,

00:09:13.025 --> 00:09:14.006

I owe a lot of this to

00:09:14.066 --> 00:09:15.006

listening to women.

00:09:15.026 --> 00:09:16.095

If you're trying to listen

00:09:16.135 --> 00:09:18.016

to a guy who talks about how women feel,

00:09:18.117 --> 00:09:19.217

that's your first mistake.

00:09:19.397 --> 00:09:19.958

Please stop.

00:09:20.914 --> 00:09:23.296

listen to women and, and I think you'll be,

00:09:23.616 --> 00:09:24.317

be amazed.

00:09:24.653 --> 00:09:26.735

So it's been a journey and

00:09:26.755 --> 00:09:28.376

that's why I'm here.

00:09:28.476 --> 00:09:29.577

And I think more of my

00:09:29.637 --> 00:09:30.658

content is going to be

00:09:30.718 --> 00:09:32.580

talking about being the

00:09:32.620 --> 00:09:34.448

narcissist from the abuser standpoint.

00:09:34.448 --> 00:09:35.182

And,

00:09:35.383 --> 00:09:38.145

and kind of maybe either helping women

00:09:38.265 --> 00:09:40.467

see if there's hope, you know, because I,

00:09:40.747 --> 00:09:42.428

I do believe it can be healed.

00:09:42.688 --> 00:09:43.529

I really do.

00:09:44.069 --> 00:09:46.291

That comes with your self-awareness,

00:09:46.311 --> 00:09:47.472

your desire to change.

00:09:48.136 --> 00:09:49.957

and your ability to actually

00:09:49.997 --> 00:09:50.998

put yourself in another

00:09:51.018 --> 00:09:52.979

person's shoes and care

00:09:52.999 --> 00:09:54.220

about other people and

00:09:54.280 --> 00:09:56.582

getting out of your old, your whole,

00:09:56.642 --> 00:09:58.703

the world revolves around me.

00:09:59.842 --> 00:10:00.302

Yeah.

00:10:00.522 --> 00:10:01.303

Yeah.

00:10:01.343 --> 00:10:03.104

So first of all, I want to just say,

00:10:03.164 --> 00:10:04.585

I think it's really amazing

00:10:04.785 --> 00:10:06.446

that you got to the space

00:10:07.086 --> 00:10:08.287

where you could have that

00:10:08.367 --> 00:10:09.427

self-awareness and that

00:10:09.507 --> 00:10:11.448

introspection because a lot

00:10:11.488 --> 00:10:13.109

of people never make it to that place.

00:10:13.569 --> 00:10:15.531

A lot of people, as you said,

00:10:15.571 --> 00:10:17.432

these behaviors that were

00:10:17.472 --> 00:10:19.092

really just an effort to be

00:10:19.152 --> 00:10:21.874

seen and heard, they become maladaptive.

00:10:21.994 --> 00:10:23.255

And for a lot of people who

00:10:23.935 --> 00:10:25.636

those behaviors become their

00:10:25.676 --> 00:10:27.017

entire personality and

00:10:27.037 --> 00:10:28.158

they're not they lose the

00:10:28.178 --> 00:10:29.999

ability to be introspective

00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:31.019

the way that you've done.

00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:32.400

So that's what I think is

00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.101

really amazing about your journey.

00:10:34.702 --> 00:10:36.383

And I just want to rewind a little bit.

00:10:36.463 --> 00:10:38.804

So for for my listeners,

00:10:38.844 --> 00:10:41.125

my viewers who maybe don't

00:10:41.306 --> 00:10:43.287

know very much about narcissism,

00:10:43.548 --> 00:10:44.808

just to sort of reiterate,

00:10:45.269 --> 00:10:46.709

I think narcissism is is

00:10:46.789 --> 00:10:48.030

largely misunderstood.

00:10:48.551 --> 00:10:50.111

I think it's become kind of

00:10:50.132 --> 00:10:51.632

a word that people throw around

00:10:52.613 --> 00:10:53.714

because we have like this

00:10:53.794 --> 00:10:54.815

much understanding of it.

00:10:54.855 --> 00:10:56.056

So I want people to become

00:10:56.116 --> 00:10:58.018

more educated about what

00:10:58.058 --> 00:10:59.999

narcissism is and what it isn't,

00:11:00.419 --> 00:11:02.461

about the fact that it's a spectrum.

00:11:02.942 --> 00:11:06.025

So just if we can talk briefly, you and I,

00:11:06.185 --> 00:11:09.387

about the fact that we all

00:11:09.407 --> 00:11:11.209

have some narcissistic traits.

00:11:11.329 --> 00:11:14.251

All of us have jealousy, spitefulness,

00:11:14.311 --> 00:11:16.709

selfishness, those types of things.

00:11:17.354 --> 00:11:19.456

Manipulating things to get what we need.

00:11:20.523 --> 00:11:20.683

Yeah.

00:11:20.703 --> 00:11:20.884

Yeah.

00:11:20.924 --> 00:11:22.485

Manipulating things to get what we need.

00:11:22.665 --> 00:11:24.746

And I think that's like that

00:11:24.786 --> 00:11:25.587

starts to get to the

00:11:25.627 --> 00:11:27.188

unhealthy side of the spectrum.

00:11:27.388 --> 00:11:30.030

Like it's one thing for me to say, wow,

00:11:30.210 --> 00:11:31.390

I really wish my partner

00:11:31.431 --> 00:11:33.052

would call me back more often.

00:11:33.752 --> 00:11:36.554

It's another thing for me to, you know,

00:11:36.614 --> 00:11:38.835

call them and pretend that

00:11:38.855 --> 00:11:39.696

there's some kind of an

00:11:39.756 --> 00:11:41.237

emergency or situation that

00:11:41.257 --> 00:11:42.058

needs handling.

00:11:42.498 --> 00:11:43.539

That would be manipulative.

00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:43.859

Right.

00:11:43.899 --> 00:11:44.199

Right.

00:11:44.319 --> 00:11:44.707

Yeah.

00:11:44.860 --> 00:11:45.120

Yeah.

00:11:45.160 --> 00:11:46.361

So doing things like that to

00:11:46.401 --> 00:11:48.241

get our needs met rather than,

00:11:48.461 --> 00:11:50.142

as you were saying, self-validating.

00:11:50.662 --> 00:11:51.983

So again,

00:11:52.043 --> 00:11:54.143

we all have these tendencies

00:11:54.343 --> 00:11:56.744

towards problematic or

00:11:56.784 --> 00:11:58.385

maladaptive behaviors.

00:11:59.065 --> 00:12:01.506

The difference is that a lot

00:12:01.546 --> 00:12:03.306

of us hopefully see that

00:12:03.326 --> 00:12:04.327

they're maladaptive.

00:12:05.267 --> 00:12:06.287

And we think that's not the

00:12:06.307 --> 00:12:07.748

way I want to relate to someone.

00:12:07.868 --> 00:12:09.729

And we think I'd rather be

00:12:09.769 --> 00:12:10.769

more authentic and

00:12:10.841 --> 00:12:12.892

um but a lot of us get put

00:12:12.932 --> 00:12:14.412

in a situation very young

00:12:14.472 --> 00:12:15.613

especially in high demand

00:12:15.653 --> 00:12:17.293

religion where we aren't

00:12:17.353 --> 00:12:19.314

seen and heard because

00:12:19.334 --> 00:12:20.574

we're not really allowed to

00:12:20.594 --> 00:12:22.215

be individuals we have to

00:12:22.255 --> 00:12:24.175

just be we have to fit into

00:12:24.195 --> 00:12:25.256

this little box that was

00:12:25.296 --> 00:12:28.853

given to us so a lot of us do develop

00:12:29.235 --> 00:12:30.436

I guess, you know,

00:12:30.496 --> 00:12:31.437

maladaptive ways of

00:12:31.477 --> 00:12:32.978

relating to people in order

00:12:33.018 --> 00:12:35.481

to be seen and heard, you know?

00:12:36.061 --> 00:12:37.603

And I think that does start very young,

00:12:37.663 --> 00:12:39.024

but I think that you're

00:12:39.084 --> 00:12:40.445

right in saying that for

00:12:40.605 --> 00:12:41.466

men in the church,

00:12:42.087 --> 00:12:43.928

it's a lot different than

00:12:43.968 --> 00:12:44.969

for women in the church

00:12:45.009 --> 00:12:47.471

because you are instilled

00:12:47.491 --> 00:12:48.853

with a sense of entitlement.

00:12:48.953 --> 00:12:50.694

So can you talk just a little bit about

00:12:51.615 --> 00:12:53.296

Well, maybe before we get into that,

00:12:53.716 --> 00:12:54.836

I'll just say that for

00:12:54.876 --> 00:12:56.097

those who don't know a lot

00:12:56.137 --> 00:12:58.358

about narcissistic personality disorder,

00:12:58.758 --> 00:12:59.498

there's a difference

00:12:59.538 --> 00:13:00.679

between the personality

00:13:00.719 --> 00:13:01.799

disorder and just having

00:13:01.859 --> 00:13:02.980

narcissistic traits.

00:13:04.640 --> 00:13:06.521

When the traits sort of spin

00:13:06.561 --> 00:13:07.241

out of control,

00:13:07.282 --> 00:13:08.843

that's when it becomes the

00:13:08.883 --> 00:13:10.264

whole personality disorder.

00:13:11.064 --> 00:13:12.085

But you can have traits of

00:13:12.125 --> 00:13:13.946

narcissism without having

00:13:13.986 --> 00:13:15.227

the personality disorder.

00:13:16.088 --> 00:13:17.769

And some of the traits that

00:13:17.849 --> 00:13:19.730

I think people need to be

00:13:19.770 --> 00:13:20.731

aware of that are some of

00:13:20.771 --> 00:13:21.852

the most common traits of

00:13:21.912 --> 00:13:25.094

narcissism are that need to

00:13:25.174 --> 00:13:26.415

feel validated,

00:13:26.475 --> 00:13:27.636

that need to feel like

00:13:27.656 --> 00:13:29.117

they're the center of attention.

00:13:29.238 --> 00:13:29.438

The

00:13:31.270 --> 00:13:32.371

Sometimes arrogance or

00:13:32.411 --> 00:13:36.094

inflated sense of self-importance,

00:13:36.894 --> 00:13:39.696

fantasies of success and power.

00:13:40.537 --> 00:13:41.637

And I think the two things

00:13:41.717 --> 00:13:44.019

really that stand out to me

00:13:44.099 --> 00:13:45.960

most of the time are that lack of empathy,

00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:47.041

like you were talking about,

00:13:47.081 --> 00:13:48.082

the inability to put

00:13:48.102 --> 00:13:49.282

yourself in someone else's

00:13:49.343 --> 00:13:49.983

shoes sometimes.

00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:51.249

And the other one is that

00:13:51.349 --> 00:13:52.470

inability to take

00:13:52.510 --> 00:13:54.590

responsibility for your own behavior,

00:13:54.630 --> 00:13:55.511

your own actions,

00:13:55.551 --> 00:13:56.531

always trying to blame it

00:13:56.611 --> 00:13:57.351

on someone else.

00:13:57.371 --> 00:14:00.092

So I think that's pretty amazing.

00:14:01.693 --> 00:14:03.193

That is a huge one.

00:14:03.593 --> 00:14:05.574

Uh, not taking responsibility.

00:14:06.074 --> 00:14:08.755

And, uh, of course women can have it,

00:14:09.015 --> 00:14:11.496

but men especially, uh,

00:14:11.536 --> 00:14:13.076

because of how we're raised

00:14:13.136 --> 00:14:14.096

and we'll get into all that,

00:14:14.116 --> 00:14:15.337

but you're absolutely correct.

00:14:15.617 --> 00:14:15.717

Um,

00:14:16.355 --> 00:14:18.616

What really helped me when I

00:14:18.656 --> 00:14:19.836

was kind of discovering I

00:14:19.856 --> 00:14:21.877

was a narcissist and

00:14:21.937 --> 00:14:23.538

listening to another man

00:14:23.578 --> 00:14:24.738

talk about being a

00:14:24.778 --> 00:14:27.559

narcissist was it's what

00:14:27.619 --> 00:14:29.140

really resonated with me as I came,

00:14:29.500 --> 00:14:30.720

you will do pretty much

00:14:30.981 --> 00:14:33.321

anything at the cost of

00:14:33.421 --> 00:14:34.302

others and you don't even

00:14:34.362 --> 00:14:39.704

realize it to avoid feeling shame.

00:14:39.944 --> 00:14:41.204

And so that comes with

00:14:41.384 --> 00:14:42.685

avoiding responsibility.

00:14:43.506 --> 00:14:44.987

And I think that comes a lot

00:14:45.067 --> 00:14:46.989

with how narcissists can

00:14:47.029 --> 00:14:47.989

make you feel crazy,

00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:49.490

where if you're asking your

00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:51.912

significant other to

00:14:52.012 --> 00:14:53.573

participate more or whatever,

00:14:53.593 --> 00:14:54.674

and then they,

00:14:54.694 --> 00:14:56.375

they emotionally manipulate

00:14:56.695 --> 00:14:58.917

and they don't want to feel like we've,

00:14:59.077 --> 00:14:59.897

we don't want to feel like

00:14:59.917 --> 00:15:00.998

we've done anything wrong.

00:15:01.458 --> 00:15:02.959

Heaven forbid my partner

00:15:02.979 --> 00:15:04.420

sees that I'm actually not

00:15:04.821 --> 00:15:06.102

who I said I was.

00:15:06.902 --> 00:15:08.984

And so we can, we do anything.

00:15:09.024 --> 00:15:10.204

And I didn't even realize I

00:15:10.224 --> 00:15:10.885

was doing this.

00:15:11.254 --> 00:15:14.115

We do anything to avoid accountability and,

00:15:14.176 --> 00:15:15.396

you know, I'm, I'm trying, you know,

00:15:15.436 --> 00:15:16.757

business has been hard, you know,

00:15:16.837 --> 00:15:17.597

it's just a victim.

00:15:18.298 --> 00:15:19.838

And so you can, you have,

00:15:20.739 --> 00:15:21.979

there's different types of narcissism.

00:15:22.040 --> 00:15:22.440

And honestly,

00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:23.660

I've looked at all of them and I'm like,

00:15:24.221 --> 00:15:26.202

I've done all of those different things.

00:15:26.402 --> 00:15:27.342

So I, I don't,

00:15:27.983 --> 00:15:28.683

I'm not sure if I

00:15:28.723 --> 00:15:30.044

necessarily agree with

00:15:30.424 --> 00:15:32.385

being pigeonholed into a certain type.

00:15:32.405 --> 00:15:36.087

Uh, I use them all and, um, really.

00:15:37.248 --> 00:15:39.369

You do anything to avoid feeling shame.

00:15:39.958 --> 00:15:41.099

and feeling like you really

00:15:41.239 --> 00:15:42.200

aren't that great.

00:15:42.961 --> 00:15:43.982

But at the same time,

00:15:44.122 --> 00:15:45.223

you know you're not great.

00:15:46.344 --> 00:15:49.728

And you don't want anyone to see that,

00:15:49.908 --> 00:15:51.850

but you don't consciously know that.

00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:52.350

I mean,

00:15:52.470 --> 00:15:54.953

all of this is coming after the fact,

00:15:55.353 --> 00:15:56.314

but now I can piece it

00:15:56.354 --> 00:15:57.495

together once you make that

00:15:57.535 --> 00:15:58.436

awareness and you're

00:15:58.776 --> 00:16:00.138

willing to take responsibility.

00:16:00.800 --> 00:16:01.861

yeah and say oh my gosh i

00:16:01.881 --> 00:16:03.442

can see that now i see how

00:16:03.802 --> 00:16:05.723

i love bomb i see how i

00:16:05.823 --> 00:16:08.044

pushed that relationship

00:16:08.585 --> 00:16:09.685

even when she wanted to

00:16:09.725 --> 00:16:11.426

take it slow and i just

00:16:11.467 --> 00:16:12.747

thought i was panicking and

00:16:13.087 --> 00:16:14.568

i just thought i i want

00:16:14.628 --> 00:16:15.629

this i know it's for the

00:16:15.669 --> 00:16:16.930

best she's the one and i

00:16:16.990 --> 00:16:18.511

pushed well that's that's

00:16:18.551 --> 00:16:19.411

love bombing and that's not

00:16:19.471 --> 00:16:20.612

healthy and these are

00:16:20.632 --> 00:16:21.533

things you kind of learn

00:16:21.613 --> 00:16:23.094

after the fact so um let's

00:16:23.114 --> 00:16:24.195

get back to what we were

00:16:24.235 --> 00:16:25.716

kind of talking about of

00:16:25.776 --> 00:16:27.297

narcissism really is

00:16:28.516 --> 00:16:29.437

The core of it, I think,

00:16:29.497 --> 00:16:30.697

is you have no idea how to

00:16:30.797 --> 00:16:32.418

self-validate and you need

00:16:32.438 --> 00:16:33.559

validation from others.

00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:36.221

And then that makes you very

00:16:36.281 --> 00:16:36.901

self-centered.

00:16:38.642 --> 00:16:40.684

It makes you very selfish in

00:16:40.724 --> 00:16:43.085

that what I just need my needs met.

00:16:43.826 --> 00:16:45.727

And what it should be is how

00:16:45.767 --> 00:16:48.088

can I improve my partner's life?

00:16:48.428 --> 00:16:50.169

How can I make her life

00:16:50.229 --> 00:16:51.911

better or his life better?

00:16:52.651 --> 00:16:54.192

And instead it becomes,

00:16:55.493 --> 00:16:56.493

I need my needs met or I'm

00:16:56.513 --> 00:16:57.314

going to panic.

00:16:58.465 --> 00:17:00.406

and then that person becomes

00:17:00.426 --> 00:17:01.186

your only source of

00:17:01.226 --> 00:17:02.967

validation and that's

00:17:03.007 --> 00:17:04.767

that's a bad place to be

00:17:04.807 --> 00:17:07.669

because i couldn't you know

00:17:07.709 --> 00:17:09.109

and she would she would say

00:17:09.129 --> 00:17:09.949

you know come on you gotta

00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:11.610

love all your parts and you

00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:12.931

can do this and you know

00:17:12.971 --> 00:17:14.111

really supportive and she

00:17:14.151 --> 00:17:16.172

became my only source of

00:17:16.192 --> 00:17:17.492

validation and and that

00:17:17.532 --> 00:17:18.773

happens all too often

00:17:19.594 --> 00:17:21.955

with narcissists and that's

00:17:21.975 --> 00:17:23.415

a recipe for disaster.

00:17:23.435 --> 00:17:25.636

When you can't self validate

00:17:25.736 --> 00:17:26.757

and you don't have the

00:17:26.817 --> 00:17:27.977

confidence on your own to

00:17:28.037 --> 00:17:29.538

create your own happiness

00:17:29.578 --> 00:17:30.698

and to validate yourself,

00:17:31.858 --> 00:17:34.159

that becomes a very toxic

00:17:34.199 --> 00:17:35.580

dynamic where you're

00:17:35.620 --> 00:17:36.960

essentially just using the

00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:37.920

other person to get what

00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:39.181

you need and that's not love.

00:17:40.401 --> 00:17:41.862

And when this is going on,

00:17:43.482 --> 00:17:44.543

I thought I was fully in

00:17:44.603 --> 00:17:45.963

love and I still think I was.

00:17:46.644 --> 00:17:47.364

And like you said,

00:17:49.141 --> 00:17:51.802

the personality disorder versus tendencies,

00:17:52.762 --> 00:17:54.742

that's a vast spectrum,

00:17:55.122 --> 00:17:57.323

but I still think I had so

00:17:57.343 --> 00:17:58.403

many blind spots that I

00:17:58.423 --> 00:18:00.144

would probably put myself honestly,

00:18:00.184 --> 00:18:01.564

all the way over into the

00:18:01.924 --> 00:18:04.124

personality disorder, but I'm like,

00:18:04.825 --> 00:18:05.939

just barely,

00:18:05.939 --> 00:18:06.277

um,

00:18:06.297 --> 00:18:08.498

I think self-awareness is crucial

00:18:08.638 --> 00:18:11.398

and just taking accountability.

00:18:11.638 --> 00:18:12.499

And instead of being, oh,

00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:13.919

you're just being crazy or,

00:18:14.928 --> 00:18:15.449

Uh,

00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:18.091

and there's a lot of blind spots that we,

00:18:18.111 --> 00:18:19.653

as men have that make that

00:18:19.914 --> 00:18:22.197

difficult to drive women insane.

00:18:22.837 --> 00:18:23.798

And that's where it kind of

00:18:23.978 --> 00:18:24.879

being raised in the,

00:18:25.700 --> 00:18:28.703

in the church can kind of add to that.

00:18:28.763 --> 00:18:29.724

And as we said before,

00:18:29.765 --> 00:18:30.565

there are certain check

00:18:30.605 --> 00:18:33.428

marks that if you experienced growing up,

00:18:34.209 --> 00:18:35.010

you're more likely to

00:18:35.050 --> 00:18:35.891

become a narcissist.

00:18:35.951 --> 00:18:36.792

And unfortunately.

00:18:37.782 --> 00:18:39.603

high control religion, Mormonism,

00:18:40.923 --> 00:18:43.804

enforces and fosters a lot of them.

00:18:43.884 --> 00:18:45.185

It checks a lot of the boxes.

00:18:45.965 --> 00:18:46.285

Yeah.

00:18:46.305 --> 00:18:47.506

So let's talk about that.

00:18:47.726 --> 00:18:48.646

What are some of the things

00:18:48.686 --> 00:18:50.587

you experienced as a child

00:18:50.627 --> 00:18:52.108

growing up in Mormonism,

00:18:52.268 --> 00:18:53.468

especially as a man growing

00:18:53.508 --> 00:18:54.328

up in Mormonism,

00:18:55.049 --> 00:18:58.030

that sort of taught you

00:18:58.630 --> 00:19:00.651

that you needed these types of behaviors?

00:19:02.413 --> 00:19:02.613

Well,

00:19:02.633 --> 00:19:04.034

let's first start off with the very

00:19:04.214 --> 00:19:05.836

obvious, uh,

00:19:05.896 --> 00:19:09.419

from the time you're a little boy, power,

00:19:09.819 --> 00:19:12.681

priesthood, preside, authority,

00:19:12.922 --> 00:19:16.104

hold dominion over your family.

00:19:17.345 --> 00:19:19.427

Um, you're taught you're,

00:19:19.447 --> 00:19:20.968

you have the power of God

00:19:21.208 --> 00:19:23.310

using the word power, authority,

00:19:23.650 --> 00:19:25.912

all of that, um,

00:19:25.952 --> 00:19:26.853

gives you a sense of

00:19:26.913 --> 00:19:28.314

entitlement and obviously

00:19:28.354 --> 00:19:29.415

thinking you're the only

00:19:29.475 --> 00:19:30.696

true church on the earth

00:19:31.376 --> 00:19:31.977

and you're a guy.

00:19:32.765 --> 00:19:34.466

where everything is just handed to you.

00:19:34.506 --> 00:19:35.986

And you don't really even

00:19:36.126 --> 00:19:36.907

see that growing up,

00:19:36.927 --> 00:19:38.307

but after the fact you do.

00:19:40.528 --> 00:19:44.609

And I think that language is

00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:46.630

really dangerous because it

00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:49.091

makes us feel like we rule

00:19:49.111 --> 00:19:51.532

the world and we run this.

00:19:52.432 --> 00:19:52.712

Yeah,

00:19:52.732 --> 00:19:54.613

so for those who maybe have never

00:19:54.633 --> 00:19:55.633

been Mormon or don't know a

00:19:55.673 --> 00:19:56.694

lot about Mormonism,

00:19:57.441 --> 00:20:00.404

When young men turn twelve years old,

00:20:00.644 --> 00:20:02.305

they're given the power of

00:20:02.345 --> 00:20:05.228

the priesthood laying on everything.

00:20:06.368 --> 00:20:06.669

Yes.

00:20:07.329 --> 00:20:09.731

And so Mormons believe that

00:20:09.791 --> 00:20:11.132

when Jesus was on the earth,

00:20:11.252 --> 00:20:13.534

that he had the power of God, obviously,

00:20:13.594 --> 00:20:14.655

to heal, to bless,

00:20:15.196 --> 00:20:16.597

and that he gave that power

00:20:16.717 --> 00:20:17.918

also to his apostles.

00:20:17.938 --> 00:20:18.058

Well,

00:20:18.078 --> 00:20:19.419

Mormons believe that when the

00:20:19.459 --> 00:20:20.580

apostles were killed,

00:20:20.620 --> 00:20:22.202

that power was taken from the earth.

00:20:22.942 --> 00:20:24.583

And that Joseph Smith was

00:20:24.643 --> 00:20:27.565

chosen by God to restore that power,

00:20:27.665 --> 00:20:28.346

bring it back.

00:20:28.706 --> 00:20:30.427

So Mormons believe that

00:20:30.687 --> 00:20:33.069

heavenly beings appeared to Joseph Smith,

00:20:33.569 --> 00:20:34.950

put their hands on his head

00:20:35.471 --> 00:20:36.731

and restored the power of

00:20:36.771 --> 00:20:37.792

the priesthood to him.

00:20:38.393 --> 00:20:39.413

They also believe that

00:20:39.453 --> 00:20:41.655

Joseph Smith then did the

00:20:41.695 --> 00:20:42.595

same to other men.

00:20:44.056 --> 00:20:45.358

They call it an ordination

00:20:45.398 --> 00:20:47.540

or being ordained into the priesthood.

00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:49.061

And they're taught that they

00:20:49.141 --> 00:20:51.123

literally possess the power of God.

00:20:51.703 --> 00:20:54.526

And men are taught from the age, well,

00:20:54.566 --> 00:20:56.828

from the age of three, basically,

00:20:57.528 --> 00:20:59.250

indoctrinated into we're

00:20:59.270 --> 00:20:59.951

going to receive the

00:20:59.991 --> 00:21:01.212

priesthood when we're twelve.

00:21:01.332 --> 00:21:02.533

And we'll have that power of

00:21:02.573 --> 00:21:03.694

the priesthood as long as

00:21:03.734 --> 00:21:04.795

we keep the commandments

00:21:04.815 --> 00:21:05.836

and we're worthy enough.

00:21:06.136 --> 00:21:07.897

And then you continue to

00:21:07.957 --> 00:21:09.258

progress into higher and

00:21:09.298 --> 00:21:10.499

higher offices in the

00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:12.460

priesthood with more responsibilities.

00:21:13.061 --> 00:21:14.122

And ultimately,

00:21:15.082 --> 00:21:16.343

men are taught that it is

00:21:16.383 --> 00:21:17.704

their responsibility to

00:21:17.764 --> 00:21:19.325

preside over the home.

00:21:19.785 --> 00:21:21.587

So it's a man marrying a

00:21:21.627 --> 00:21:24.349

woman over whom he has dominion.

00:21:24.829 --> 00:21:25.729

When I went through the

00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:28.511

temple back in two thousand and four,

00:21:29.712 --> 00:21:33.253

I was taught that my husband

00:21:33.273 --> 00:21:34.293

would listen to the Lord

00:21:34.793 --> 00:21:36.494

and that I would listen to my husband,

00:21:37.274 --> 00:21:38.514

who would then listen to the Lord,

00:21:38.934 --> 00:21:40.175

which was confusing for me

00:21:40.215 --> 00:21:41.375

because my husband wasn't

00:21:41.415 --> 00:21:42.215

an active member.

00:21:42.295 --> 00:21:43.035

And so I was like, well,

00:21:43.075 --> 00:21:44.376

do I not get to talk

00:21:44.416 --> 00:21:45.736

directly to God then since

00:21:45.776 --> 00:21:46.496

my husband isn't?

00:21:46.696 --> 00:21:47.016

Anyway,

00:21:47.056 --> 00:21:49.437

that was a totally separate situation.

00:21:49.817 --> 00:21:52.358

But I can imagine as a man growing up,

00:21:53.258 --> 00:21:54.458

knowing that you're going

00:21:54.518 --> 00:21:55.858

to accept these

00:21:55.978 --> 00:21:57.899

ever-increasing responsibilities,

00:21:59.057 --> 00:22:01.337

and therefore have an ever

00:22:01.377 --> 00:22:02.738

increasing sense of power.

00:22:03.378 --> 00:22:05.718

I can imagine that would be a big burden.

00:22:07.479 --> 00:22:07.859

Yeah.

00:22:10.439 --> 00:22:11.820

I don't know if I saw it as

00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:14.420

necessarily a burden,

00:22:14.820 --> 00:22:18.001

but it was just like

00:22:18.021 --> 00:22:20.701

understood that we had more power.

00:22:20.741 --> 00:22:22.662

So if you start a kid very

00:22:22.702 --> 00:22:24.582

young to think you have

00:22:24.642 --> 00:22:25.562

more power than women,

00:22:26.262 --> 00:22:27.583

that's going to stay with you.

00:22:27.603 --> 00:22:28.363

That's imprinted.

00:22:29.876 --> 00:22:30.897

And I think in the temple,

00:22:31.057 --> 00:22:32.358

I think I read back in

00:22:32.659 --> 00:22:34.000

nineteen ninety or something,

00:22:34.020 --> 00:22:36.081

they changed it from there

00:22:36.101 --> 00:22:37.983

was the law of the husband.

00:22:38.963 --> 00:22:40.344

Like y'all have to do every.

00:22:40.625 --> 00:22:41.745

So, I mean, come on, guys.

00:22:42.226 --> 00:22:43.226

What do you think you're going to end up?

00:22:43.827 --> 00:22:44.948

So, yes.

00:22:45.008 --> 00:22:46.929

So we from a very young age,

00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:49.531

just the principles in the

00:22:49.571 --> 00:22:51.813

church lead you to believe

00:22:51.833 --> 00:22:53.134

that you are better than a woman.

00:22:54.655 --> 00:22:55.756

It's the hard thing to say.

00:22:56.176 --> 00:22:57.317

I don't love it,

00:22:57.437 --> 00:22:58.698

but that's what we thought.

00:23:00.006 --> 00:23:01.487

and when you're taught i'm

00:23:01.527 --> 00:23:03.789

sorry to interrupt you um

00:23:03.889 --> 00:23:04.890

at any time when you were

00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:06.311

growing up between the ages

00:23:06.351 --> 00:23:08.112

of say like twelve and when

00:23:08.152 --> 00:23:09.733

you went through the temple

00:23:09.773 --> 00:23:11.695

for the first time were you

00:23:11.775 --> 00:23:13.256

ever taught at any time

00:23:13.416 --> 00:23:14.977

that women had access to

00:23:15.017 --> 00:23:16.298

the power of the priesthood

00:23:16.938 --> 00:23:17.659

through their temple

00:23:17.699 --> 00:23:19.140

covenants or were you ever

00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:20.241

taught that women could

00:23:20.401 --> 00:23:21.902

ever exercise any kind of

00:23:21.962 --> 00:23:23.263

priesthood power was it a

00:23:23.323 --> 00:23:25.704

surprise to you to find women

00:23:26.975 --> 00:23:28.236

were allowed to do certain

00:23:28.257 --> 00:23:29.378

things in the temple to

00:23:29.458 --> 00:23:30.619

exercise priesthood power

00:23:30.639 --> 00:23:31.660

were you taught any of that

00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:36.486

growing up no no nor was i

00:23:37.407 --> 00:23:38.408

i just wanted to make sure

00:23:38.808 --> 00:23:41.972

no not at all not at all so

00:23:42.052 --> 00:23:44.835

you have i mean even from

00:23:45.876 --> 00:23:48.059

in primary to sunday school like it was

00:23:49.788 --> 00:23:50.969

It was very obvious.

00:23:51.449 --> 00:23:52.850

And I think you could

00:23:52.990 --> 00:23:54.752

comment too from being the

00:23:54.792 --> 00:23:55.833

female side of it.

00:23:56.113 --> 00:23:58.415

It's just obvious that we

00:23:58.715 --> 00:24:01.237

are held to preside.

00:24:01.277 --> 00:24:02.778

And I even looked at the

00:24:02.818 --> 00:24:04.900

church teachings on how to do that.

00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:06.621

And it just says preside in righteousness.

00:24:07.101 --> 00:24:10.064

So we can get into this later,

00:24:10.144 --> 00:24:11.405

but the church teaches a

00:24:11.445 --> 00:24:13.206

lot without actually teaching Jack.

00:24:14.264 --> 00:24:15.946

It's a lot of abstract,

00:24:16.186 --> 00:24:17.928

eternal truths that don't

00:24:17.968 --> 00:24:19.369

teach you how to foster an

00:24:19.429 --> 00:24:21.050

emotionally healthy

00:24:21.091 --> 00:24:22.432

relationship with a female.

00:24:22.452 --> 00:24:24.013

It just says, you know, I got to BYU.

00:24:24.113 --> 00:24:25.835

Get out there and date my wife.

00:24:27.436 --> 00:24:28.898

How should we go about doing that?

00:24:29.138 --> 00:24:29.739

Just do it.

00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:30.399

Just do it.

00:24:30.439 --> 00:24:30.920

Just do it.

00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:31.400

Just do it.

00:24:31.941 --> 00:24:32.902

And so you're taught from a

00:24:32.962 --> 00:24:33.842

very young age.

00:24:34.788 --> 00:24:36.869

that if you do the things,

00:24:37.549 --> 00:24:39.811

you get these milestones, right?

00:24:39.891 --> 00:24:40.971

Even in like scouts,

00:24:41.432 --> 00:24:42.612

you get praised for it.

00:24:43.012 --> 00:24:44.273

Then it's baptism.

00:24:44.533 --> 00:24:45.914

Then it's the priesthood

00:24:45.934 --> 00:24:46.634

when you're twelve.

00:24:46.734 --> 00:24:47.875

Then you're a teacher.

00:24:48.215 --> 00:24:49.496

Then you're a priest.

00:24:49.676 --> 00:24:51.597

Then you get the Melchizedek Priesthood.

00:24:52.037 --> 00:24:53.058

And all of that,

00:24:53.258 --> 00:24:54.458

and it's true of any high

00:24:54.498 --> 00:24:55.939

control Christian religion,

00:24:57.380 --> 00:25:02.603

that leads you to external validation.

00:25:03.576 --> 00:25:06.617

which is the core not good

00:25:06.677 --> 00:25:09.377

part of narcissism.

00:25:10.197 --> 00:25:11.678

And it really just leads to

00:25:11.778 --> 00:25:13.438

you just check these boxes.

00:25:13.978 --> 00:25:16.219

You check these boxes and

00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:20.880

the need for internal examination,

00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:22.480

self-reflection,

00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:24.681

you don't need to do that.

00:25:25.441 --> 00:25:26.621

You don't need to do that at all.

00:25:27.353 --> 00:25:29.135

and then even as a young kid

00:25:29.275 --> 00:25:30.776

you you have these

00:25:30.816 --> 00:25:32.177

responsibilities that are

00:25:32.257 --> 00:25:33.859

public i mean you pass the

00:25:33.899 --> 00:25:35.420

sacrament that is public

00:25:35.800 --> 00:25:36.701

that is in front of

00:25:37.001 --> 00:25:39.063

everyone okay and then you

00:25:39.083 --> 00:25:39.904

got to go bless the

00:25:39.944 --> 00:25:41.965

sacrament and that's you're

00:25:42.025 --> 00:25:43.607

nervous as hell right but

00:25:43.667 --> 00:25:45.108

if you do a good job people

00:25:45.168 --> 00:25:47.590

praise you you know and

00:25:47.670 --> 00:25:48.911

you're commended for what

00:25:48.931 --> 00:25:50.533

you do so from a very young

00:25:50.653 --> 00:25:52.054

age you are taught

00:25:53.055 --> 00:25:56.277

That what appears on the outside is really,

00:25:56.317 --> 00:25:57.177

really important.

00:25:57.858 --> 00:25:58.238

Okay.

00:25:58.898 --> 00:26:00.959

And then let's all be very clear.

00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:02.981

Like I'm assuming how your

00:26:03.021 --> 00:26:07.103

parents acted at church versus at home.

00:26:07.783 --> 00:26:10.165

We're two different things.

00:26:10.465 --> 00:26:11.485

There's two different people.

00:26:11.545 --> 00:26:11.765

Now,

00:26:12.186 --> 00:26:13.927

if your parents acted the exact same

00:26:13.947 --> 00:26:15.167

at church as they did at home,

00:26:15.187 --> 00:26:15.848

you're probably not going

00:26:15.868 --> 00:26:16.548

to be a narcissist.

00:26:17.209 --> 00:26:19.270

You're probably not going to manipulate,

00:26:19.310 --> 00:26:21.311

but come on, like even

00:26:22.310 --> 00:26:22.570

you know,

00:26:22.611 --> 00:26:24.333

people getting up to give talks

00:26:24.373 --> 00:26:26.537

and they use that spirit voice, you know,

00:26:26.637 --> 00:26:28.620

don't use a Google search.

00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.884

I'm like, dude, no one talks like that.

00:26:31.765 --> 00:26:32.647

No one.

00:26:33.067 --> 00:26:34.570

But we all learn that as kids.

00:26:35.282 --> 00:26:37.863

We all learn that that's imprinted.

00:26:37.903 --> 00:26:38.243

Yeah.

00:26:38.303 --> 00:26:39.263

So there's a couple of

00:26:39.303 --> 00:26:40.744

things I just want to pause

00:26:40.904 --> 00:26:42.004

and really highlight the

00:26:42.024 --> 00:26:42.925

importance of this,

00:26:43.185 --> 00:26:44.465

especially for those people

00:26:44.525 --> 00:26:47.486

who were not Mormon or,

00:26:47.726 --> 00:26:49.807

or don't know much about the LDS church.

00:26:50.947 --> 00:26:53.608

What you're talking about is what I have,

00:26:53.808 --> 00:26:55.309

what I've said so many times.

00:26:55.369 --> 00:26:55.929

Oh, puppy.

00:26:55.949 --> 00:26:56.029

Yeah.

00:26:56.049 --> 00:26:56.129

Yeah.

00:26:56.149 --> 00:26:56.769

She's the best.

00:26:56.789 --> 00:26:56.869

Okay.

00:26:56.969 --> 00:26:57.150

Come on.

00:26:57.170 --> 00:27:02.211

You want to keep going?

00:27:02.251 --> 00:27:02.791

What's her name?

00:27:02.811 --> 00:27:04.292

London.

00:27:05.089 --> 00:27:06.409

london thank you so much for

00:27:06.449 --> 00:27:09.710

bombing our video today she

00:27:09.730 --> 00:27:11.050

is she's teaches you what

00:27:11.210 --> 00:27:12.590

unconditional love is and

00:27:12.610 --> 00:27:13.531

treating this dog has

00:27:13.631 --> 00:27:14.431

definitely helped my

00:27:14.451 --> 00:27:17.491

narcissism oh she's sweet

00:27:17.651 --> 00:27:19.412

um so yeah the one of the

00:27:19.452 --> 00:27:20.472

main things i want to call

00:27:20.512 --> 00:27:22.672

attention to and what i

00:27:22.712 --> 00:27:23.732

talk about all the time on

00:27:23.772 --> 00:27:26.433

my channel is that my

00:27:26.473 --> 00:27:28.393

family members would put on

00:27:28.413 --> 00:27:31.994

this veneer their public face and

00:27:32.808 --> 00:27:34.409

This is where we learned it was in church,

00:27:34.569 --> 00:27:35.409

that in church,

00:27:35.969 --> 00:27:38.030

we act as if everything is

00:27:38.070 --> 00:27:39.050

fine in our family.

00:27:39.651 --> 00:27:42.572

We act as if we are behaving perfectly.

00:27:43.272 --> 00:27:45.053

And then when we get home,

00:27:45.193 --> 00:27:46.653

it's a completely different story.

00:27:46.794 --> 00:27:48.854

When we get home, we're rude to each other,

00:27:48.894 --> 00:27:49.875

we're sarcastic.

00:27:50.715 --> 00:27:52.916

the kids will beat up on each other.

00:27:53.017 --> 00:27:54.637

You know, we will tell on each other,

00:27:54.658 --> 00:27:55.878

we'll inform on each other

00:27:56.278 --> 00:27:58.120

to get validation from our parents.

00:27:58.860 --> 00:28:01.241

And it teaches you that it's

00:28:01.302 --> 00:28:02.282

okay to do that.

00:28:02.462 --> 00:28:04.523

Not only that it's okay, but that I,

00:28:04.603 --> 00:28:05.844

what I felt was like,

00:28:06.024 --> 00:28:07.345

is everybody else like this?

00:28:07.385 --> 00:28:10.147

Because I remember probably

00:28:10.167 --> 00:28:11.067

the first time that it

00:28:11.127 --> 00:28:12.728

really just hit me.

00:28:13.369 --> 00:28:15.130

My mom had been yelling at me

00:28:16.184 --> 00:28:17.285

for something I did wrong,

00:28:17.565 --> 00:28:18.586

whatever the flavor of the

00:28:18.606 --> 00:28:19.967

day was of the hour.

00:28:20.768 --> 00:28:23.310

And then the phone rang and

00:28:23.370 --> 00:28:24.551

she had just been yelling

00:28:24.611 --> 00:28:26.592

at me and was just like

00:28:26.752 --> 00:28:27.893

very angry with me.

00:28:27.953 --> 00:28:28.774

And then she picked up the

00:28:28.794 --> 00:28:30.535

phone and she goes, hello.

00:28:32.016 --> 00:28:33.537

And the switching in that

00:28:33.598 --> 00:28:36.460

tone of voice just graded on me so much.

00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:38.641

And it made me so angry because I was like,

00:28:39.282 --> 00:28:40.583

why can you be nice to this

00:28:40.643 --> 00:28:41.984

person on the phone who you

00:28:42.004 --> 00:28:43.105

don't even know who it is yet?

00:28:43.125 --> 00:28:44.466

Cause we didn't have color ID yet.

00:28:45.377 --> 00:28:48.119

right and yet your daughter

00:28:48.379 --> 00:28:49.379

who you're supposed to be

00:28:49.439 --> 00:28:51.461

loving and caring for you

00:28:51.481 --> 00:28:53.122

know whatever minuscule

00:28:53.162 --> 00:28:55.083

thing that i did to to you

00:28:55.103 --> 00:28:57.024

know make her angry with me

00:28:57.704 --> 00:28:59.645

and i just that that was so

00:28:59.666 --> 00:29:01.066

confusing to me as a child

00:29:01.246 --> 00:29:02.127

i don't think i was any

00:29:02.267 --> 00:29:03.468

older than like ten or

00:29:03.508 --> 00:29:04.688

eleven when that happened

00:29:04.909 --> 00:29:06.109

when i really when it

00:29:06.149 --> 00:29:07.230

resonated with me for the

00:29:07.270 --> 00:29:08.831

first time and i started

00:29:08.911 --> 00:29:11.713

noticing more and more this pattern where

00:29:12.513 --> 00:29:14.054

we definitely have a way

00:29:14.074 --> 00:29:15.534

that we behave in public

00:29:15.554 --> 00:29:16.814

and in front of other people, but,

00:29:16.974 --> 00:29:18.395

but it doesn't match at all

00:29:18.435 --> 00:29:20.055

what is happening inside the home.

00:29:20.896 --> 00:29:23.357

I think that I didn't make

00:29:23.377 --> 00:29:25.037

the association until you

00:29:25.137 --> 00:29:26.558

are talking about it right now,

00:29:26.678 --> 00:29:28.558

that that is a breeding

00:29:28.578 --> 00:29:30.319

ground for narcissism

00:29:30.919 --> 00:29:32.600

because it's traits of

00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:34.140

narcissistic people is that

00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:35.060

their words and their

00:29:35.140 --> 00:29:36.101

actions don't match.

00:29:36.141 --> 00:29:37.561

They have one face in public

00:29:37.601 --> 00:29:38.521

and a completely different

00:29:38.581 --> 00:29:39.242

one in private.

00:29:39.262 --> 00:29:39.602

Yeah.

00:29:40.846 --> 00:29:43.487

reputation and appearance is

00:29:44.687 --> 00:29:47.368

more important and so what

00:29:47.388 --> 00:29:50.149

do i learn i learned that

00:29:50.870 --> 00:29:51.930

you know and especially so

00:29:51.950 --> 00:29:53.291

this is where you know that

00:29:53.311 --> 00:29:55.091

can happen for women too um

00:29:56.152 --> 00:29:57.852

but where men i think it's

00:29:58.012 --> 00:30:01.413

more toxic is the

00:30:01.433 --> 00:30:03.054

leadership positions right

00:30:03.234 --> 00:30:06.315

so my dad uh and to his

00:30:06.355 --> 00:30:08.076

credit you know he's passed away i

00:30:08.852 --> 00:30:10.274

I don't blame my dad for anything.

00:30:10.454 --> 00:30:11.155

And that's the thing.

00:30:11.175 --> 00:30:12.637

You can't blame anyone for anything.

00:30:12.677 --> 00:30:14.059

We're all just acting under

00:30:15.041 --> 00:30:16.102

what we were taught and our

00:30:16.142 --> 00:30:17.284

programming and what we saw

00:30:17.324 --> 00:30:19.447

growing up is so crucial.

00:30:19.948 --> 00:30:21.149

And if you compared what my

00:30:21.510 --> 00:30:23.813

dad's dad did compared to what my dad did,

00:30:23.853 --> 00:30:24.734

my dad crushed it.

00:30:26.616 --> 00:30:28.339

Granddad owned a gas station

00:30:28.479 --> 00:30:30.041

and my dad became a really

00:30:30.081 --> 00:30:31.143

successful doctor.

00:30:31.503 --> 00:30:32.325

He was a bishop.

00:30:32.405 --> 00:30:33.807

He was in the state presidency.

00:30:33.867 --> 00:30:34.889

He was admired.

00:30:35.810 --> 00:30:37.192

He had everything that you

00:30:37.212 --> 00:30:39.736

would want as a man in the

00:30:40.016 --> 00:30:40.797

in the Mormon church.

00:30:41.699 --> 00:30:41.959

But

00:30:43.203 --> 00:30:44.564

So we, as kids, we,

00:30:44.644 --> 00:30:47.425

we see this and you see all

00:30:47.465 --> 00:30:48.826

these people coming up and

00:30:48.866 --> 00:30:51.807

praising your dad and saying, oh my gosh,

00:30:51.827 --> 00:30:52.567

I love your dad.

00:30:52.627 --> 00:30:54.808

He's just the best, you know?

00:30:54.828 --> 00:30:56.269

Cause my dad put on a mask

00:30:56.309 --> 00:30:58.230

at church and he was there

00:30:58.430 --> 00:30:59.250

for those people.

00:31:00.171 --> 00:31:01.551

And all of us, you know,

00:31:01.571 --> 00:31:02.332

I'm the youngest of four.

00:31:02.352 --> 00:31:03.672

We're all like, who,

00:31:03.892 --> 00:31:05.073

who are you talking about?

00:31:05.833 --> 00:31:08.114

And so that reinforces for us.

00:31:08.455 --> 00:31:09.315

Oh, okay.

00:31:10.833 --> 00:31:12.534

how we act at church and how

00:31:12.574 --> 00:31:13.775

other people perceive us is

00:31:13.835 --> 00:31:15.355

more important than authenticity.

00:31:16.836 --> 00:31:19.477

And, and it's rampant in the church.

00:31:19.737 --> 00:31:21.498

It is just, and it's,

00:31:21.879 --> 00:31:23.339

no one does anything to stop it.

00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:24.140

I mean,

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.740

all the brethren who get up there

00:31:25.780 --> 00:31:27.541

and talk, who use that voice,

00:31:27.701 --> 00:31:30.363

like you don't talk like that, man.

00:31:30.583 --> 00:31:33.124

Like it's, it's laughable these days.

00:31:34.385 --> 00:31:35.225

And so, um,

00:31:35.470 --> 00:31:36.590

And they would pass it off

00:31:36.810 --> 00:31:39.811

as I'm being influenced by the spirit.

00:31:40.091 --> 00:31:41.531

And that's why I'm talking that way,

00:31:41.851 --> 00:31:43.351

because I'm under the

00:31:43.411 --> 00:31:44.772

influence of the Holy ghost.

00:31:44.912 --> 00:31:46.812

And when the Holy ghost is really with me,

00:31:47.612 --> 00:31:49.433

I take on a different demeanor.

00:31:49.553 --> 00:31:50.313

I'm gentler.

00:31:50.333 --> 00:31:50.973

I'm kinder.

00:31:51.033 --> 00:31:52.233

My voice is softer.

00:31:53.393 --> 00:31:56.834

So yeah, that's, that's a big thing too.

00:31:59.254 --> 00:32:01.535

I remember now growing up,

00:32:01.555 --> 00:32:02.335

I didn't do anything.

00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.061

terribly wrong um I didn't

00:32:05.081 --> 00:32:06.041

drink or anything I was at

00:32:06.061 --> 00:32:06.881

a high school where there

00:32:06.901 --> 00:32:08.061

was like ten Mormons out of

00:32:08.101 --> 00:32:10.062

fifteen hundred right um I

00:32:10.082 --> 00:32:12.962

never drank or anything uh

00:32:13.002 --> 00:32:15.923

maybe a little fooling

00:32:15.963 --> 00:32:17.403

around with a female or two

00:32:17.903 --> 00:32:19.184

which was really really bad

00:32:19.484 --> 00:32:20.644

and my parents almost like

00:32:20.684 --> 00:32:21.684

disowned me and they sent

00:32:21.704 --> 00:32:23.765

me to Provo for a summer to

00:32:23.805 --> 00:32:25.445

get away from this girl but

00:32:25.485 --> 00:32:26.665

did they teach me why that

00:32:26.705 --> 00:32:28.246

was bad did they teach me

00:32:28.266 --> 00:32:29.686

and sit me down and say John

00:32:30.106 --> 00:32:31.346

no they got pissed because

00:32:31.426 --> 00:32:32.247

everyone in the school

00:32:32.267 --> 00:32:33.247

found out everyone in

00:32:33.287 --> 00:32:34.967

church found out and you

00:32:35.007 --> 00:32:36.588

quickly see like it's more

00:32:36.628 --> 00:32:37.868

important for what everyone

00:32:37.908 --> 00:32:39.368

else finds out so what is

00:32:39.408 --> 00:32:40.789

that foster it fosters a

00:32:40.909 --> 00:32:43.029

lack of integrity yeah all

00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:44.709

that matters is what is

00:32:44.769 --> 00:32:47.150

seen and so many times i

00:32:47.190 --> 00:32:49.551

saw like my parents or my

00:32:49.611 --> 00:32:51.491

mom would keep things from my dad

00:32:51.921 --> 00:32:53.882

So he wouldn't like this

00:32:53.922 --> 00:32:56.603

goes on in the home where there is lying.

00:32:56.703 --> 00:32:58.804

There is just doing what you

00:32:58.824 --> 00:33:01.146

have to do to survive.

00:33:01.186 --> 00:33:01.701

So

00:33:01.701 --> 00:33:01.704

Yeah.

00:33:01.744 --> 00:33:01.944

Well,

00:33:02.044 --> 00:33:03.485

I do want to go back for a second

00:33:03.525 --> 00:33:04.765

because there was,

00:33:04.785 --> 00:33:05.766

there was a second thing

00:33:05.806 --> 00:33:06.846

that you were talking about

00:33:06.887 --> 00:33:08.767

that I think is so

00:33:08.868 --> 00:33:10.288

important to the formation

00:33:10.508 --> 00:33:12.509

of personality disorder traits.

00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:13.850

And that's,

00:33:14.345 --> 00:33:15.565

it's the bishop's interview,

00:33:16.065 --> 00:33:17.186

the worthiness interview.

00:33:17.646 --> 00:33:18.486

And when you're talking

00:33:18.526 --> 00:33:19.706

about getting the

00:33:19.746 --> 00:33:20.946

priesthood as a twelve year

00:33:21.026 --> 00:33:23.127

old and then advancing to the next level,

00:33:23.147 --> 00:33:24.987

like I know that you had

00:33:25.027 --> 00:33:26.348

this and I had it probably

00:33:26.388 --> 00:33:28.588

to a lesser degree because, you know,

00:33:28.648 --> 00:33:28.928

women,

00:33:28.968 --> 00:33:30.869

we had our class presidencies when

00:33:30.909 --> 00:33:31.669

we were young women.

00:33:32.089 --> 00:33:33.189

It wasn't the same or as

00:33:33.229 --> 00:33:34.489

important as the priesthood,

00:33:35.029 --> 00:33:36.250

but we got a bishop's

00:33:36.290 --> 00:33:38.110

interview every year as well.

00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:41.691

And it's this idea that,

00:33:42.511 --> 00:33:43.454

that you have to have

00:33:43.514 --> 00:33:44.979

someone else declare you

00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.507

worthy like your worthiness

00:33:47.667 --> 00:33:49.533

and your your sense of

00:33:50.972 --> 00:33:52.913

self doesn't come from you

00:33:53.293 --> 00:33:54.353

it comes from your

00:33:54.393 --> 00:33:55.774

priesthood leader who tells

00:33:55.814 --> 00:33:57.574

you that either you're

00:33:57.614 --> 00:33:58.835

worthy or you're not worthy

00:33:59.395 --> 00:34:01.155

and so it develops in us

00:34:01.395 --> 00:34:03.036

the the very idea of

00:34:03.116 --> 00:34:04.797

external validation it's

00:34:05.337 --> 00:34:06.337

built on external

00:34:06.357 --> 00:34:08.218

validation because it's not

00:34:08.278 --> 00:34:10.278

enough for us to say i feel

00:34:10.318 --> 00:34:11.379

worthy although they did

00:34:11.419 --> 00:34:12.779

start adding that later on

00:34:12.819 --> 00:34:14.580

like the last temple recommend question

00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:16.520

is now,

00:34:17.001 --> 00:34:18.421

do you think that you're worthy or

00:34:18.581 --> 00:34:19.801

would you declare yourself

00:34:19.841 --> 00:34:21.142

worthy to enter the temple?

00:34:21.502 --> 00:34:22.662

But they didn't have that

00:34:22.882 --> 00:34:23.803

when we were kids.

00:34:23.943 --> 00:34:27.744

And so for me, very much, I learned that,

00:34:28.104 --> 00:34:28.944

as you were saying,

00:34:29.344 --> 00:34:31.485

I had to check a set of

00:34:31.525 --> 00:34:33.806

boxes in order to have

00:34:33.846 --> 00:34:35.566

someone else evaluate me

00:34:35.706 --> 00:34:37.367

and declare me to be worthy.

00:34:38.427 --> 00:34:41.008

And so it sets us up to need

00:34:41.128 --> 00:34:42.669

external validation for the

00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:43.930

rest of our lives.

00:34:44.610 --> 00:34:47.311

And the other piece of that

00:34:47.371 --> 00:34:48.792

is the perfectionism.

00:34:48.812 --> 00:34:49.672

When you're talking about

00:34:49.752 --> 00:34:51.133

giving the sacrament prayer

00:34:51.173 --> 00:34:52.794

in front of everybody as a

00:34:52.854 --> 00:34:54.054

sixteen year old boy,

00:34:54.735 --> 00:34:55.895

you had to do it perfectly.

00:34:56.535 --> 00:34:58.016

If you got one word wrong,

00:34:58.056 --> 00:34:59.237

they made you start over.

00:35:00.335 --> 00:35:01.096

And do it again.

00:35:01.656 --> 00:35:04.698

And the shame that must have come up for,

00:35:04.878 --> 00:35:05.799

for all of you.

00:35:06.399 --> 00:35:07.160

Every time you got,

00:35:07.180 --> 00:35:08.361

I think that's where we all

00:35:08.401 --> 00:35:09.762

developed anxiety.

00:35:10.182 --> 00:35:11.910

We all developed anxiety

00:35:12.001 --> 00:35:14.302

passing the sacrament or

00:35:14.943 --> 00:35:17.024

blessing the sacrament or whatever.

00:35:17.204 --> 00:35:19.266

If we had maybe done

00:35:19.346 --> 00:35:21.007

something that week that we're worried,

00:35:21.067 --> 00:35:21.828

oh my gosh.

00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:24.360

Do I need to tell the bishop about that?

00:35:24.601 --> 00:35:26.362

Am I worthy to pass the sacrament?

00:35:26.442 --> 00:35:27.143

And then, of course,

00:35:27.203 --> 00:35:28.944

if you do do the right thing,

00:35:29.164 --> 00:35:30.485

you go talk to the bishop.

00:35:31.146 --> 00:35:31.326

Well,

00:35:31.386 --> 00:35:33.628

now he's saying you're unworthy to

00:35:33.668 --> 00:35:34.669

pass the sacrament.

00:35:35.470 --> 00:35:36.771

Everyone can see that.

00:35:36.791 --> 00:35:37.171

Right.

00:35:37.551 --> 00:35:39.593

Or you're unworthy to take the sacrament.

00:35:40.053 --> 00:35:41.334

Everyone can see that.

00:35:41.515 --> 00:35:44.978

And so there's PTSD all up in that.

00:35:45.424 --> 00:35:47.525

It teaches us that it's not safe to fail.

00:35:47.785 --> 00:35:49.006

It teaches us that it's not

00:35:49.046 --> 00:35:50.207

safe to be authentic

00:35:50.627 --> 00:35:52.088

because even the smallest,

00:35:52.589 --> 00:35:55.451

most minute transgression

00:35:55.551 --> 00:35:56.711

or mistake is going to be

00:35:56.771 --> 00:35:58.993

seen by everyone and you're

00:35:59.013 --> 00:35:59.814

going to receive

00:35:59.854 --> 00:36:01.635

consequences that are very public.

00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:03.359

Very public.

00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:04.140

I mean,

00:36:04.200 --> 00:36:06.601

you tried passing the sacrament

00:36:06.621 --> 00:36:08.442

tray to your dad and he has

00:36:08.502 --> 00:36:09.703

no idea what's going on.

00:36:09.743 --> 00:36:10.903

And only you and your mom know,

00:36:10.943 --> 00:36:11.924

because we've hit it from

00:36:11.964 --> 00:36:13.424

the dad because he would

00:36:13.444 --> 00:36:14.505

just lose his shit.

00:36:15.425 --> 00:36:16.886

Um, that's, that's, that's,

00:36:17.466 --> 00:36:18.607

that's devastating.

00:36:19.247 --> 00:36:21.608

Um, but you're absolutely right.

00:36:21.648 --> 00:36:22.829

From a very young age,

00:36:23.409 --> 00:36:25.390

we have to go into a room

00:36:25.490 --> 00:36:26.691

alone with an older

00:36:26.711 --> 00:36:30.032

gentleman who determines if

00:36:30.112 --> 00:36:31.073

we are worthy.

00:36:31.283 --> 00:36:32.172

the problem

00:36:32.212 --> 00:36:34.313

with the church is it

00:36:34.353 --> 00:36:36.193

really disconnects you from self.

00:36:36.733 --> 00:36:38.794

Is I can only be blessed or

00:36:38.974 --> 00:36:40.574

I can only be happy or I

00:36:40.594 --> 00:36:43.775

can only have joy if Heavenly Father

00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:45.811

If I do all the right things

00:36:46.231 --> 00:36:47.772

and I can get my love from

00:36:47.932 --> 00:36:48.752

heavenly father,

00:36:48.912 --> 00:36:50.713

instead of I am just

00:36:50.853 --> 00:36:52.454

endless light and love.

00:36:52.514 --> 00:36:55.796

And I have that capability within myself.

00:36:56.556 --> 00:36:58.557

You always got to rely on somebody else.

00:36:58.967 --> 00:37:00.108

And then you got to get a

00:37:00.128 --> 00:37:01.288

little temple recommend,

00:37:01.388 --> 00:37:02.689

or you have to be worthy

00:37:02.789 --> 00:37:06.431

each year growing up to be deemed worthy,

00:37:06.491 --> 00:37:07.531

where they ask you some

00:37:07.812 --> 00:37:09.933

really personal questions

00:37:09.973 --> 00:37:11.994

that make you feel really uncomfortable.

00:37:12.694 --> 00:37:14.135

And, you know, you,

00:37:14.295 --> 00:37:17.316

you maybe you had swear

00:37:17.336 --> 00:37:18.737

words in your mind too much

00:37:18.777 --> 00:37:19.638

the last week and you're

00:37:19.718 --> 00:37:20.898

panicking because you don't

00:37:20.918 --> 00:37:21.519

know if you're going to

00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:23.760

pass this worthiness thing because, oh,

00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:24.280

by the way,

00:37:24.340 --> 00:37:26.101

it's ward temple night and the

00:37:26.141 --> 00:37:28.162

youth are going to do temple baptisms.

00:37:28.646 --> 00:37:30.527

And if you don't go, your dad and mom,

00:37:30.547 --> 00:37:31.788

they know something is up.

00:37:32.328 --> 00:37:36.751

And that is beyond horrifying.

00:37:37.412 --> 00:37:38.272

Right.

00:37:38.592 --> 00:37:40.033

So you're absolutely right.

00:37:40.093 --> 00:37:41.815

It's unsafe to screw up.

00:37:43.276 --> 00:37:43.496

Now,

00:37:43.576 --> 00:37:44.757

I'm sure there's some parents out

00:37:44.777 --> 00:37:45.977

there that were really cool.

00:37:46.077 --> 00:37:47.098

And I'm hoping that these

00:37:47.318 --> 00:37:49.079

more modern parents these days,

00:37:49.540 --> 00:37:50.820

that's being done away with.

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:52.341

But for our age group, man,

00:37:53.082 --> 00:37:54.703

that was traumatizing.

00:37:55.717 --> 00:37:56.737

Yeah,

00:37:56.837 --> 00:37:58.358

and it's not just your parents that

00:37:58.398 --> 00:38:00.099

see you not participating

00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:01.579

in War Temple Night.

00:38:02.120 --> 00:38:03.320

And for me personally,

00:38:03.520 --> 00:38:04.540

I lived in Connecticut

00:38:05.881 --> 00:38:06.581

during middle school and

00:38:06.601 --> 00:38:07.342

high school years,

00:38:07.862 --> 00:38:10.403

and we had to travel to Washington, D.C.

00:38:10.443 --> 00:38:11.263

to go to the temple.

00:38:11.743 --> 00:38:12.924

So it's a six-hour drive.

00:38:12.944 --> 00:38:13.024

Okay.

00:38:14.025 --> 00:38:16.086

And it's a big deal.

00:38:16.467 --> 00:38:18.669

And we would usually find

00:38:19.009 --> 00:38:20.871

some kind of overnight accommodations.

00:38:20.891 --> 00:38:21.912

We would stay with members

00:38:21.972 --> 00:38:22.933

or something like that so

00:38:22.953 --> 00:38:25.315

that we could drive down, do baptisms,

00:38:25.395 --> 00:38:25.996

stay the night,

00:38:26.076 --> 00:38:28.178

go to church and come back the next day.

00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:30.981

And so it was a really big

00:38:31.041 --> 00:38:32.862

deal to have an overnight

00:38:32.902 --> 00:38:34.164

trip with everybody,

00:38:34.344 --> 00:38:35.645

all of the youth in the ward.

00:38:36.106 --> 00:38:37.607

And if you didn't go, it was like, well,

00:38:37.647 --> 00:38:38.408

what's wrong with you?

00:38:39.169 --> 00:38:40.530

And then gossip, gossip, gossip.

00:38:40.750 --> 00:38:41.851

Gossip, gossip, gossip.

00:38:42.032 --> 00:38:44.975

And also back in that day,

00:38:45.956 --> 00:38:47.157

you were not allowed to do

00:38:47.197 --> 00:38:48.499

baptisms for the dead as a

00:38:48.579 --> 00:38:51.242

female if you were on your period.

00:38:51.262 --> 00:38:53.184

Oh my gosh.

00:38:53.204 --> 00:38:55.506

Because they were afraid.

00:38:55.526 --> 00:38:56.668

I didn't even think about that.

00:38:57.696 --> 00:38:58.996

I guess they were afraid

00:38:59.097 --> 00:39:00.317

that we would contaminate

00:39:00.337 --> 00:39:01.517

the baptismal font.

00:39:02.138 --> 00:39:03.318

And so it didn't matter

00:39:04.038 --> 00:39:06.979

whether you used pads or tampons,

00:39:08.080 --> 00:39:09.400

if you were on your period,

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:10.681

you were not allowed to get

00:39:10.801 --> 00:39:12.121

into the baptismal font.

00:39:12.741 --> 00:39:14.542

And so we were assigned a

00:39:14.582 --> 00:39:16.003

task of either passing out

00:39:16.043 --> 00:39:20.004

towels or helping in some other way, but

00:39:21.826 --> 00:39:24.549

For some reason, for some people,

00:39:24.669 --> 00:39:25.650

it was a little bit of a

00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:27.251

steam valve of a let off

00:39:27.291 --> 00:39:28.492

because it's like, OK, well,

00:39:28.532 --> 00:39:29.693

if I'm not worthy to go,

00:39:29.873 --> 00:39:30.594

I'm just going to tell them

00:39:30.634 --> 00:39:33.356

I'm on my period.

00:39:33.396 --> 00:39:34.578

I think that's weird, though.

00:39:34.598 --> 00:39:35.679

I'll just assume that's the

00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:37.080

reason I'm not participating.

00:39:37.520 --> 00:39:38.941

but it was such a weird thing.

00:39:39.021 --> 00:39:40.361

And it was again, yet again,

00:39:40.461 --> 00:39:42.562

another way that teachings

00:39:42.582 --> 00:39:44.223

of the church made me feel

00:39:44.283 --> 00:39:45.723

disconnected from my body,

00:39:45.763 --> 00:39:47.164

made me feel ashamed about

00:39:47.224 --> 00:39:48.865

my body and made me feel

00:39:48.885 --> 00:39:50.805

like I was less than and not,

00:39:51.125 --> 00:39:53.146

not clean to participate

00:39:53.726 --> 00:39:54.827

because of something I had

00:39:54.887 --> 00:39:56.408

no control over, you know?

00:39:56.428 --> 00:39:57.055

Goodness.

00:39:57.069 --> 00:39:58.250

well that's just another kind of

00:39:58.290 --> 00:40:01.231

example of like something we were

00:40:02.104 --> 00:40:03.125

not that they would teach that,

00:40:03.165 --> 00:40:04.987

but just very unaware as

00:40:05.027 --> 00:40:07.949

being a man of other

00:40:07.989 --> 00:40:10.051

people's issues and problems,

00:40:10.183 --> 00:40:12.344

just finding out about that now, you know,

00:40:12.364 --> 00:40:13.064

being thirty eight.

00:40:13.104 --> 00:40:14.985

But of course,

00:40:15.005 --> 00:40:16.185

that's a that's a that's a

00:40:16.205 --> 00:40:18.366

common thing that should be considered.

00:40:18.716 --> 00:40:20.617

It also just goes to how

00:40:20.697 --> 00:40:22.458

disconnected and uninformed

00:40:22.738 --> 00:40:24.158

the male leaders of the

00:40:24.178 --> 00:40:27.599

church are about femininity,

00:40:27.799 --> 00:40:30.300

feminine hygiene, a female's body,

00:40:31.581 --> 00:40:31.841

you know,

00:40:31.881 --> 00:40:33.641

thinking about garments being

00:40:33.661 --> 00:40:35.362

designed by men and

00:40:35.927 --> 00:40:37.510

issues that women have specific

00:40:37.550 --> 00:40:39.072

to garments that men wouldn't have,

00:40:39.092 --> 00:40:39.714

for example,

00:40:39.874 --> 00:40:40.936

garments causing yeast

00:40:40.976 --> 00:40:42.498

infections and other problems.

00:40:43.099 --> 00:40:44.903

So it's like if they really

00:40:44.963 --> 00:40:47.628

were talking to God,

00:40:48.511 --> 00:40:50.292

I don't think that they

00:40:50.312 --> 00:40:52.053

would have this lack of

00:40:52.093 --> 00:40:53.774

information or lack of knowledge,

00:40:53.854 --> 00:40:55.495

you know, God would let them know.

00:40:55.855 --> 00:40:56.076

Okay.

00:40:56.096 --> 00:40:57.196

I know maybe you think it's

00:40:57.216 --> 00:40:58.657

gross if a woman's on her period,

00:40:58.697 --> 00:40:59.578

but it's not going to hurt

00:40:59.598 --> 00:41:00.598

the baptismal font.

00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:02.920

If she gets in the water, you know,

00:41:03.460 --> 00:41:04.981

if they were really talking to God,

00:41:05.601 --> 00:41:07.102

I don't think they would be so ignorant,

00:41:07.442 --> 00:41:09.563

but anyway, that was a tangent.

00:41:10.464 --> 00:41:11.725

No, that's great tangent.

00:41:11.785 --> 00:41:13.146

And it's, it's a,

00:41:13.226 --> 00:41:15.387

it's a perfect example of the arrogance.

00:41:16.472 --> 00:41:19.213

and the entitlement and the

00:41:19.514 --> 00:41:22.455

lack of empathy of figuring

00:41:22.555 --> 00:41:24.856

out your perspective

00:41:26.237 --> 00:41:26.977

getting a female's

00:41:27.037 --> 00:41:28.098

perspective growing up in

00:41:28.138 --> 00:41:30.739

the church as a man don't

00:41:30.759 --> 00:41:32.860

need to do it and what i

00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:34.521

saw you know the the

00:41:34.581 --> 00:41:36.042

activity in the home for a

00:41:36.122 --> 00:41:37.363

man at least for me was

00:41:38.763 --> 00:41:39.859

very superficial

00:41:40.243 --> 00:41:41.405

was within the Mormon church,

00:41:41.425 --> 00:41:43.347

there's doctrine and then

00:41:43.367 --> 00:41:44.249

there's some kind of gray

00:41:44.309 --> 00:41:46.352

areas where it differs from

00:41:46.392 --> 00:41:47.593

family to family, right?

00:41:47.834 --> 00:41:48.595

So for example-

00:41:49.515 --> 00:41:50.215

In my family,

00:41:50.275 --> 00:41:53.756

my dad was so against caffeine,

00:41:55.436 --> 00:41:57.497

to a scary point.

00:41:57.617 --> 00:41:58.357

We all had this.

00:41:59.017 --> 00:42:01.758

You're playing a little league soccer game,

00:42:01.918 --> 00:42:04.319

and you go, and they bring drinks after,

00:42:04.399 --> 00:42:05.659

and there's no Sprite.

00:42:05.799 --> 00:42:07.139

And so you literally have to

00:42:07.179 --> 00:42:09.000

just stare at the cans and say,

00:42:09.060 --> 00:42:09.980

I can't have any of that,

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:10.980

because my dad won't let me

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:11.520

have caffeine.

00:42:12.340 --> 00:42:15.601

And OK, swimming on Sunday was so,

00:42:16.761 --> 00:42:18.622

he was just, he would not allow that.

00:42:19.015 --> 00:42:20.752

Um, and keeping the Sabbath day holy,

00:42:20.792 --> 00:42:22.454

but we could totally watch football,

00:42:22.614 --> 00:42:24.175

even sometimes go to friends' houses,

00:42:24.216 --> 00:42:25.757

but swimming was just like,

00:42:25.977 --> 00:42:26.958

absolutely not.

00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:29.461

And then, um,

00:42:29.701 --> 00:42:30.902

is it because he believed

00:42:30.943 --> 00:42:33.145

that Satan had dominion over the water?

00:42:34.170 --> 00:42:34.890

I didn't know because he

00:42:34.930 --> 00:42:35.811

never taught us why.

00:42:35.971 --> 00:42:37.812

Okay, got it.

00:42:37.832 --> 00:42:39.573

That's something I heard

00:42:39.873 --> 00:42:41.954

later on is the reason they

00:42:41.994 --> 00:42:44.056

don't let missionaries swim

00:42:44.656 --> 00:42:46.197

is because Satan has

00:42:46.397 --> 00:42:47.417

dominion over the water,

00:42:47.958 --> 00:42:49.178

which I don't know how that

00:42:49.238 --> 00:42:50.559

works with the rest of the

00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:52.840

theology or whatever,

00:42:52.940 --> 00:42:54.001

but it's another one of

00:42:54.021 --> 00:42:55.162

those weird Mormon myths.

00:42:56.042 --> 00:42:58.523

So this is the reason I bring it up is,

00:43:00.244 --> 00:43:02.886

but also my dad and my mom,

00:43:04.417 --> 00:43:05.318

never went to the temple

00:43:05.338 --> 00:43:09.080

ever that was like not that

00:43:09.120 --> 00:43:12.482

was not a thing and we also

00:43:13.182 --> 00:43:15.544

never had even when it was

00:43:15.584 --> 00:43:17.665

like required not once

00:43:18.265 --> 00:43:20.147

family home evening wow

00:43:20.705 --> 00:43:23.383

and and it shows you and

00:43:23.543 --> 00:43:24.364

i'm not saying that all

00:43:24.404 --> 00:43:25.924

mormon families do that but

00:43:26.825 --> 00:43:28.226

it shows you you can pick and choose

00:43:29.408 --> 00:43:31.048

it shows you that it's not

00:43:31.108 --> 00:43:32.769

really that important.

00:43:33.729 --> 00:43:35.350

And once again,

00:43:35.390 --> 00:43:37.090

that just solidified that

00:43:37.950 --> 00:43:39.331

what goes on in the home

00:43:39.431 --> 00:43:40.691

and behind closed doors

00:43:41.311 --> 00:43:44.252

doesn't matter as much, you know,

00:43:44.272 --> 00:43:45.272

but going to church and

00:43:45.312 --> 00:43:46.913

being in a church boy, that's important,

00:43:47.053 --> 00:43:50.253

but going to the temple, they didn't,

00:43:50.273 --> 00:43:51.074

they didn't do that.

00:43:51.454 --> 00:43:52.174

And, um,

00:43:54.290 --> 00:43:57.873

But then like crazy about caffeine.

00:43:58.974 --> 00:44:01.315

So when you have that, you just have this.

00:44:01.976 --> 00:44:03.697

And maybe why I developed

00:44:03.737 --> 00:44:04.558

more narcissistic

00:44:04.598 --> 00:44:05.619

tendencies more so than

00:44:05.699 --> 00:44:07.500

other people was I saw that

00:44:08.501 --> 00:44:09.442

you could pick and choose

00:44:10.102 --> 00:44:11.203

and it really didn't matter.

00:44:11.463 --> 00:44:14.045

And what really mattered was what was seen,

00:44:14.705 --> 00:44:17.948

your reputation, that outward appearance,

00:44:18.808 --> 00:44:19.229

and

00:44:21.240 --> 00:44:23.141

yeah yeah so i thought about

00:44:23.161 --> 00:44:24.401

that and it's funny like

00:44:25.342 --> 00:44:27.563

the the one thing that

00:44:27.663 --> 00:44:29.023

forced my dad to be with

00:44:29.063 --> 00:44:30.624

family at home he avoided

00:44:31.584 --> 00:44:32.285

and so what do you think

00:44:32.325 --> 00:44:34.025

that taught us you know

00:44:34.105 --> 00:44:36.046

like this is one thing and

00:44:36.086 --> 00:44:38.227

so he was he was really um

00:44:38.347 --> 00:44:39.988

absent you know emotionally

00:44:40.048 --> 00:44:41.949

absent father so my mom

00:44:41.989 --> 00:44:43.329

tried to pick up the slack

00:44:43.349 --> 00:44:44.810

for that and that's also

00:44:45.590 --> 00:44:47.171

another formula for narcissism

00:44:47.471 --> 00:44:49.072

that dynamic.

00:44:49.112 --> 00:44:49.412

Yeah.

00:44:49.933 --> 00:44:51.354

So that the,

00:44:51.454 --> 00:44:53.055

the example of picking and

00:44:53.115 --> 00:44:54.516

choosing which rules we're

00:44:54.536 --> 00:44:56.657

going to follow sort of

00:44:56.697 --> 00:44:57.838

gives you this sense of

00:44:57.918 --> 00:44:59.879

entitlement of like,

00:44:59.959 --> 00:45:02.021

I'm important enough that I

00:45:02.041 --> 00:45:05.123

get to choose what I'm going to do.

00:45:05.243 --> 00:45:05.463

Yeah.

00:45:05.723 --> 00:45:07.565

I'm going to choose which

00:45:07.625 --> 00:45:08.585

rules I'm going to follow

00:45:08.625 --> 00:45:09.966

and which ones don't apply to me.

00:45:10.246 --> 00:45:11.267

So that it, this,

00:45:11.367 --> 00:45:12.528

this implication that some

00:45:12.568 --> 00:45:13.509

of the rules don't apply to

00:45:13.549 --> 00:45:15.490

me and I get to pick which ones they are.

00:45:18.194 --> 00:45:19.257

Wow, this is blowing my mind.

00:45:19.698 --> 00:45:21.042

We see that growing up.

00:45:21.102 --> 00:45:22.526

And so what does that make us think?

00:45:23.248 --> 00:45:24.029

Yeah.

00:45:24.129 --> 00:45:24.349

I mean,

00:45:24.369 --> 00:45:27.031

these are all things that I knew

00:45:27.131 --> 00:45:27.912

about the church,

00:45:28.032 --> 00:45:29.533

especially after leaving the church.

00:45:29.673 --> 00:45:30.954

I think I became

00:45:31.034 --> 00:45:32.655

disenfranchised with the

00:45:32.715 --> 00:45:34.837

culture of the church a long,

00:45:34.877 --> 00:45:35.658

long time ago,

00:45:36.178 --> 00:45:37.599

because as a female and

00:45:37.699 --> 00:45:39.080

also as a female married to

00:45:39.120 --> 00:45:40.782

someone who wasn't active in the church,

00:45:40.822 --> 00:45:42.283

I was like a third class citizen.

00:45:42.403 --> 00:45:43.484

And then when I got divorced,

00:45:43.524 --> 00:45:44.305

it was even worse.

00:45:44.825 --> 00:45:46.887

So I already knew some of

00:45:46.907 --> 00:45:48.468

these things about the culture.

00:45:49.749 --> 00:45:50.909

being really unhealthy,

00:45:51.590 --> 00:45:52.750

I didn't get to the truth

00:45:52.770 --> 00:45:54.011

claims until much later.

00:45:54.671 --> 00:45:55.972

So I already was in this

00:45:56.012 --> 00:45:57.032

space where I knew this

00:45:57.052 --> 00:45:57.932

stuff was unhealthy,

00:45:58.412 --> 00:46:00.633

but drawing the parallels

00:46:00.673 --> 00:46:02.874

between how we are brought

00:46:02.914 --> 00:46:07.016

up in the church and narcissism, it just,

00:46:07.076 --> 00:46:08.997

this is blowing my mind, like making,

00:46:09.037 --> 00:46:10.297

connecting those dots.

00:46:10.938 --> 00:46:13.058

And I think it's just, man,

00:46:13.158 --> 00:46:14.199

this is such an important

00:46:14.219 --> 00:46:15.019

thing for people to

00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:16.720

understand and to talk about.

00:46:16.740 --> 00:46:19.501

This is really, really important.

00:46:20.533 --> 00:46:22.735

I hope, uh, you know,

00:46:22.755 --> 00:46:25.136

for the female audience out there, um,

00:46:25.156 --> 00:46:26.877

the different way we were

00:46:26.917 --> 00:46:28.979

raised and obviously I'm not condoning it,

00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:30.040

advocating for it.

00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:32.822

It's just, it is what it is.

00:46:33.402 --> 00:46:35.544

Um, one important,

00:46:35.764 --> 00:46:36.945

really crucial thing that I

00:46:36.965 --> 00:46:38.647

wanted to talk about is,

00:46:39.767 --> 00:46:41.989

is the male white privilege

00:46:42.249 --> 00:46:42.790

in the church.

00:46:45.255 --> 00:46:47.419

And it's really, really there.

00:46:47.740 --> 00:46:49.823

And it causes a lot of

00:46:50.344 --> 00:46:55.492

arrogance and naivety and ignorance.

00:46:56.389 --> 00:46:59.031

And it's really strong in the church.

00:46:59.111 --> 00:47:00.652

And so let's talk about privilege.

00:47:01.993 --> 00:47:03.094

A good example is we've all

00:47:03.134 --> 00:47:04.935

had parents or grandparents that maybe,

00:47:05.635 --> 00:47:05.896

you know,

00:47:05.936 --> 00:47:07.937

say something racist or out of

00:47:07.977 --> 00:47:09.978

touch and they don't see

00:47:10.078 --> 00:47:12.300

their own privilege or they expect,

00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.382

you know, that race, you know, whatever,

00:47:15.582 --> 00:47:15.802

you know,

00:47:15.822 --> 00:47:17.263

they go down that route and it's

00:47:17.363 --> 00:47:19.465

clear that you can see their privilege.

00:47:21.106 --> 00:47:21.286

Well,

00:47:21.406 --> 00:47:23.768

all men raised in the church have that.

00:47:24.708 --> 00:47:25.569

And we don't even know it.

00:47:26.303 --> 00:47:29.504

And it comes from, for example,

00:47:29.544 --> 00:47:30.844

let's say you are dating

00:47:30.904 --> 00:47:32.385

someone who's not your same race.

00:47:32.545 --> 00:47:34.025

And I know this is a harsh example,

00:47:34.065 --> 00:47:34.746

but for women,

00:47:34.786 --> 00:47:35.786

you can kind of begin to

00:47:35.846 --> 00:47:37.346

see you're dating someone

00:47:37.366 --> 00:47:38.487

who's not in your race and

00:47:38.527 --> 00:47:39.947

you assume their reality

00:47:39.987 --> 00:47:41.327

and their experiences and

00:47:41.347 --> 00:47:42.748

their privileges and their

00:47:42.808 --> 00:47:44.808

problems are the exact same as yours.

00:47:46.029 --> 00:47:48.510

That's really naive and

00:47:48.690 --> 00:47:49.870

really destructive.

00:47:50.070 --> 00:47:52.871

And you are going to have a lot of issues.

00:47:53.627 --> 00:47:54.408

All right.

00:47:54.428 --> 00:47:55.409

And unfortunately,

00:47:55.469 --> 00:47:57.230

the way the church is set

00:47:57.330 --> 00:47:59.733

up and the patriarchy and everything,

00:48:00.513 --> 00:48:02.775

men were born and raised

00:48:02.795 --> 00:48:03.676

with that sense of

00:48:03.736 --> 00:48:05.358

entitlement where not only

00:48:05.878 --> 00:48:10.839

do we think we are superior than you.

00:48:10.839 --> 00:48:11.395

quote I wanted,

00:48:11.435 --> 00:48:12.996

but we're blind to the fact

00:48:13.036 --> 00:48:14.977

that your experience is far

00:48:15.037 --> 00:48:15.978

different than ours.

00:48:17.018 --> 00:48:19.039

We think your experience is

00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:21.420

the same as ours, which is just dumb.

00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:22.621

That would be like assuming

00:48:22.941 --> 00:48:24.082

someone of a different race,

00:48:24.602 --> 00:48:25.863

their experience is different.

00:48:26.083 --> 00:48:27.263

And that I think is how

00:48:27.403 --> 00:48:29.604

different even a white male

00:48:29.744 --> 00:48:31.245

and a white female in the

00:48:31.285 --> 00:48:34.007

church is with that type of

00:48:34.107 --> 00:48:36.568

privilege where we're at

00:48:36.808 --> 00:48:38.849

the top in terms of oppression.

00:48:39.541 --> 00:48:39.761

Right.

00:48:39.801 --> 00:48:40.961

The only people that can

00:48:41.021 --> 00:48:42.242

really oppress the white

00:48:42.282 --> 00:48:43.862

male is another white male.

00:48:43.902 --> 00:48:45.162

And I know this sounds terrible,

00:48:45.202 --> 00:48:46.302

but it's just the reality

00:48:46.342 --> 00:48:47.222

of the patriarchy.

00:48:47.242 --> 00:48:47.643

Yeah.

00:48:48.103 --> 00:48:50.143

And so women can be

00:48:50.203 --> 00:48:52.203

persecuted and oppressed by the men.

00:48:52.483 --> 00:48:55.144

And when you're up at the top, you know,

00:48:55.264 --> 00:48:57.184

you're just, you're too busy.

00:48:57.284 --> 00:48:58.125

I got to preside.

00:48:58.165 --> 00:48:59.165

I have to provide,

00:48:59.265 --> 00:49:00.545

I have to do all these things.

00:49:00.565 --> 00:49:01.445

I'm not going to concern

00:49:01.465 --> 00:49:03.165

myself with your experience

00:49:03.626 --> 00:49:04.946

and the church does nothing

00:49:04.986 --> 00:49:05.826

to prevent that.

00:49:06.526 --> 00:49:07.527

Growing up, I mean,

00:49:07.647 --> 00:49:08.968

just little things like, oh,

00:49:08.988 --> 00:49:10.389

the sister missionary or a

00:49:10.449 --> 00:49:11.650

sister is giving a talk at

00:49:11.690 --> 00:49:12.491

general conference.

00:49:12.511 --> 00:49:13.572

We can all take a nap.

00:49:13.612 --> 00:49:16.634

Like this is just rampant, you know,

00:49:17.155 --> 00:49:18.516

and not thinking about how

00:49:18.616 --> 00:49:19.997

women are judged for being

00:49:20.017 --> 00:49:20.878

a stay at home mom.

00:49:20.898 --> 00:49:23.580

They're judged for wearing nice clothes.

00:49:23.600 --> 00:49:25.041

They're judged for wearing gym clothes.

00:49:25.061 --> 00:49:26.903

They're judged for being a career woman.

00:49:26.923 --> 00:49:30.626

They're judged for every little thing.

00:49:31.226 --> 00:49:32.087

And they're supposed to just

00:49:32.147 --> 00:49:33.348

cater to the man.

00:49:33.989 --> 00:49:35.390

And so we.

00:49:36.972 --> 00:49:37.873

the only way that that

00:49:37.913 --> 00:49:39.294

changes is for a man to

00:49:39.374 --> 00:49:40.215

really try to put

00:49:40.815 --> 00:49:42.957

themselves in the shoes of a female.

00:49:43.717 --> 00:49:47.079

And, and that's, unless you really want to,

00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:48.420

that's hard to do.

00:49:48.460 --> 00:49:50.862

And that just breeds elitism.

00:49:51.382 --> 00:49:52.403

And I,

00:49:52.903 --> 00:49:55.285

I deserve you to take care of everything.

00:49:56.326 --> 00:49:57.286

And I mean, if you just,

00:49:57.467 --> 00:49:58.307

once you start to see

00:49:58.347 --> 00:49:59.728

through a lens of a female

00:49:59.768 --> 00:50:00.749

and you really have to go

00:50:00.769 --> 00:50:02.090

through an exercise, like,

00:50:03.162 --> 00:50:03.462

Okay.

00:50:04.003 --> 00:50:05.964

Let's imagine that the

00:50:05.984 --> 00:50:08.566

female race is they're all six,

00:50:08.626 --> 00:50:10.047

five to eight feet tall.

00:50:10.928 --> 00:50:12.529

They all weigh two hundred

00:50:12.549 --> 00:50:13.890

and fifty to four hundred

00:50:13.910 --> 00:50:14.770

and fifty pounds.

00:50:14.810 --> 00:50:16.571

They're extremely aggressive.

00:50:18.273 --> 00:50:19.514

They can overpower you.

00:50:19.674 --> 00:50:20.494

They can hurt you.

00:50:21.535 --> 00:50:22.636

They run the world.

00:50:23.516 --> 00:50:25.638

They laugh at you for pretty

00:50:25.658 --> 00:50:26.639

much everything you do

00:50:26.759 --> 00:50:28.040

where you're just supposed

00:50:28.060 --> 00:50:30.061

to accommodate them at every turn.

00:50:30.781 --> 00:50:31.921

You are going to be judged

00:50:31.961 --> 00:50:33.622

by them if you're a career man.

00:50:33.722 --> 00:50:34.602

You're going to be judged by

00:50:34.622 --> 00:50:35.802

them if you're a great dad.

00:50:36.122 --> 00:50:37.103

You're going to be judged

00:50:37.143 --> 00:50:38.163

for wearing a suit.

00:50:38.203 --> 00:50:39.103

You're going to be judged

00:50:39.143 --> 00:50:40.043

for wearing shorts.

00:50:40.103 --> 00:50:41.164

You're going to be judged

00:50:41.244 --> 00:50:44.404

for not taking the kids on

00:50:44.584 --> 00:50:45.325

outings enough.

00:50:45.345 --> 00:50:47.105

You're going to be judged left and right.

00:50:48.145 --> 00:50:50.146

And I can promise you no man

00:50:50.226 --> 00:50:51.186

wants that reality.

00:50:52.132 --> 00:50:54.093

but you have to take a step

00:50:54.253 --> 00:50:55.693

and imagine what that's

00:50:55.773 --> 00:50:57.714

like so that there can be

00:50:57.854 --> 00:50:59.735

tons of more sympathy and

00:50:59.835 --> 00:51:03.796

empathy in realizing how lucky we are.

00:51:04.036 --> 00:51:07.157

And men in the church, in the patriarchy,

00:51:07.217 --> 00:51:08.478

we have benefited the most.

00:51:08.538 --> 00:51:10.458

I think it hurts everyone, obviously,

00:51:11.839 --> 00:51:13.119

but we've benefited the most.

00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:14.080

And so we have the most

00:51:14.120 --> 00:51:15.800

responsibility to unlearn

00:51:16.060 --> 00:51:17.161

and have more compassion

00:51:17.741 --> 00:51:19.401

and uncover these blind spots.

00:51:19.441 --> 00:51:20.222

And once you do,

00:51:21.578 --> 00:51:22.738

um you can start to see it

00:51:22.778 --> 00:51:23.979

everywhere like he's a

00:51:23.999 --> 00:51:25.279

really famous jolly

00:51:25.299 --> 00:51:27.719

comedian uh nate bergetzi

00:51:27.819 --> 00:51:28.980

whatever he's got a netflix

00:51:29.080 --> 00:51:31.000

flick special right now out

00:51:31.180 --> 00:51:32.640

and you know most people

00:51:32.660 --> 00:51:33.581

are just laughing at it but

00:51:33.601 --> 00:51:34.921

he's basically just showing

00:51:34.981 --> 00:51:37.201

how incompetent he is and

00:51:37.241 --> 00:51:38.202

how his wife has to

00:51:38.362 --> 00:51:40.282

literally do everything for

00:51:40.322 --> 00:51:42.523

him everything he doesn't

00:51:42.563 --> 00:51:43.863

even know what bank he goes

00:51:43.903 --> 00:51:45.863

to and it's just assumed

00:51:45.903 --> 00:51:47.784

that the wife does that and

00:51:47.884 --> 00:51:49.064

once you start to like

00:51:50.488 --> 00:51:53.530

just like man that that

00:51:53.550 --> 00:51:55.651

would get really old yeah

00:51:55.751 --> 00:51:58.213

and then on top of that you

00:51:58.253 --> 00:51:59.833

know narcissism within a

00:51:59.974 --> 00:52:01.554

relationship can cause all

00:52:01.615 --> 00:52:05.397

kinds of damage and so what

00:52:05.437 --> 00:52:06.777

i'm saying is men in the

00:52:06.818 --> 00:52:07.658

church are never taught

00:52:07.698 --> 00:52:08.839

about this oppression we're

00:52:08.859 --> 00:52:10.139

never taught to look from

00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:11.700

your perspective because

00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:13.461

why would we we preside you

00:52:13.481 --> 00:52:14.322

know and how do you think

00:52:14.342 --> 00:52:16.103

the brethren go home and

00:52:16.143 --> 00:52:17.384

treat their wives honestly

00:52:18.484 --> 00:52:19.645

do you think it's pretty equitable

00:52:20.610 --> 00:52:21.931

Do you think they're really

00:52:22.031 --> 00:52:22.952

sweet and kind?

00:52:24.252 --> 00:52:26.794

And I, and we all know that, you know,

00:52:26.814 --> 00:52:27.815

no one's arguing that.

00:52:27.875 --> 00:52:29.075

And so what does that teach us?

00:52:29.736 --> 00:52:30.476

That that's okay.

00:52:31.137 --> 00:52:31.417

Yeah.

00:52:31.577 --> 00:52:31.737

You know,

00:52:31.757 --> 00:52:33.378

you got Bednar shooing his wife

00:52:33.398 --> 00:52:35.840

away to sit down before he stands.

00:52:35.900 --> 00:52:37.301

Like it's just toxic.

00:52:37.841 --> 00:52:38.361

Yeah.

00:52:38.381 --> 00:52:41.243

So it's going to take listening to women,

00:52:41.403 --> 00:52:42.204

putting ourselves,

00:52:42.664 --> 00:52:44.605

trying to understand your perspective.

00:52:44.886 --> 00:52:45.966

And until we do,

00:52:47.267 --> 00:52:48.848

we're going to have a tough time.

00:52:48.868 --> 00:52:49.749

Yeah.

00:52:49.809 --> 00:52:50.009

Yeah.

00:52:51.148 --> 00:52:53.410

I think that the reason,

00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:54.671

I think you're right about

00:52:54.711 --> 00:52:57.092

the reason that we're not aware,

00:52:57.813 --> 00:52:58.974

that men are not aware of

00:52:58.994 --> 00:53:00.675

the disparity is because

00:53:01.675 --> 00:53:03.016

what would that look like?

00:53:03.196 --> 00:53:05.218

Can you imagine being on the

00:53:05.238 --> 00:53:06.899

correlation committee in

00:53:06.999 --> 00:53:08.500

Salt Lake City and saying,

00:53:09.121 --> 00:53:10.301

we should really include

00:53:10.341 --> 00:53:11.682

some course material for

00:53:11.782 --> 00:53:14.024

men about how their wives

00:53:14.064 --> 00:53:15.405

feel oppressed at home?

00:53:17.268 --> 00:53:18.329

That's not gonna go over.

00:53:18.609 --> 00:53:19.689

It's not gonna be included.

00:53:19.729 --> 00:53:20.910

It's like, where's the biblical,

00:53:21.190 --> 00:53:22.351

what scripture references

00:53:22.371 --> 00:53:23.191

can we give for that?

00:53:23.312 --> 00:53:23.452

Well,

00:53:23.732 --> 00:53:26.533

we don't have any because there isn't

00:53:26.573 --> 00:53:27.474

anything.

00:53:27.894 --> 00:53:28.755

There's nothing in the

00:53:28.775 --> 00:53:30.676

scriptures that can teach a

00:53:30.716 --> 00:53:31.916

man to be informed about

00:53:31.976 --> 00:53:33.818

how a woman feels about

00:53:33.858 --> 00:53:36.219

being largely excluded from scripture,

00:53:36.819 --> 00:53:37.820

about how there are no

00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:39.901

women's voices in the Book of Mormon,

00:53:40.561 --> 00:53:42.062

about how the only things

00:53:42.242 --> 00:53:42.883

in the Doctrine and

00:53:42.923 --> 00:53:44.003

Covenants that mention

00:53:44.023 --> 00:53:45.945

women are chastising them.

00:53:46.945 --> 00:53:49.046

And then giving them sort of

00:53:49.066 --> 00:53:51.006

an appeasement of power and

00:53:51.026 --> 00:53:52.687

then threatening them with

00:53:52.727 --> 00:53:53.767

a flaming sword if they

00:53:53.787 --> 00:53:55.627

don't do what the man says.

00:53:57.008 --> 00:53:59.028

So I agree with you.

00:53:59.669 --> 00:54:02.269

It's a hard thing to even

00:54:02.309 --> 00:54:03.210

bring up in a church

00:54:03.250 --> 00:54:04.870

setting because if the

00:54:04.910 --> 00:54:06.650

people creating the course

00:54:06.690 --> 00:54:08.251

material aren't even aware of it,

00:54:09.108 --> 00:54:10.749

How is it ever going to get taught?

00:54:11.649 --> 00:54:13.090

I just don't think it is.

00:54:14.290 --> 00:54:15.811

It's not because they're

00:54:16.131 --> 00:54:16.911

honestly they're all

00:54:17.151 --> 00:54:18.311

narcissists in the first

00:54:18.352 --> 00:54:20.232

shot that they think of

00:54:20.272 --> 00:54:22.253

taking another person's opinion.

00:54:22.953 --> 00:54:23.974

It's not going to go well or

00:54:23.994 --> 00:54:25.234

they're going to skirt and be like,

00:54:25.634 --> 00:54:25.934

you know,

00:54:26.014 --> 00:54:27.635

that's not really that important.

00:54:28.015 --> 00:54:29.316

And it's not a real concern.

00:54:29.796 --> 00:54:30.996

It's not a real concern

00:54:31.456 --> 00:54:32.817

because they don't have to go through it.

00:54:34.029 --> 00:54:35.150

I wanted to talk a little

00:54:35.190 --> 00:54:38.092

bit about your dad and his trajectory.

00:54:38.112 --> 00:54:39.493

You've talked about him

00:54:39.574 --> 00:54:40.995

having some positions of

00:54:41.055 --> 00:54:42.996

authority of people looking up to him,

00:54:43.517 --> 00:54:45.198

of your mom picking up the slack.

00:54:45.578 --> 00:54:47.600

Can you talk about sort of

00:54:47.620 --> 00:54:48.521

the different positions

00:54:48.561 --> 00:54:50.062

that he held and how that

00:54:50.162 --> 00:54:51.843

impacted your family and

00:54:51.903 --> 00:54:54.191

the example that was for you as his son?

00:54:54.191 --> 00:54:56.395

well, when I was super young,

00:54:56.495 --> 00:54:58.937

he got called to be the Bishop of the,

00:54:59.217 --> 00:54:59.297

um,

00:55:00.023 --> 00:55:01.984

singles ward and so i

00:55:02.064 --> 00:55:04.666

remember we had a big house

00:55:05.106 --> 00:55:07.567

um we would actually i

00:55:07.648 --> 00:55:09.168

remember having the singles

00:55:09.208 --> 00:55:10.749

ward come over all the time

00:55:10.809 --> 00:55:12.630

for parties and just events

00:55:13.071 --> 00:55:14.391

because my dad was a great

00:55:14.432 --> 00:55:15.632

guy in that he was very

00:55:15.672 --> 00:55:18.374

giving um but also you

00:55:18.394 --> 00:55:19.835

could argue he wanted

00:55:19.895 --> 00:55:21.135

everyone to see how great

00:55:21.155 --> 00:55:23.357

he was you know he was also

00:55:23.377 --> 00:55:25.178

really successful professionally right

00:55:26.206 --> 00:55:30.128

yes so he he was a an ob gyn

00:55:30.908 --> 00:55:32.649

and a very good one here in

00:55:32.689 --> 00:55:34.390

texas and he brought

00:55:34.490 --> 00:55:36.271

thousands of mormon babies

00:55:36.431 --> 00:55:37.431

into the world he brought

00:55:37.531 --> 00:55:38.892

thousands of non-mormon

00:55:38.932 --> 00:55:39.952

babies into the world and

00:55:40.012 --> 00:55:42.193

he he was an amazing doctor

00:55:42.213 --> 00:55:43.514

and he took great care of

00:55:43.534 --> 00:55:45.094

those women with gentleness

00:55:45.135 --> 00:55:47.055

and kindness this is what

00:55:47.095 --> 00:55:50.577

i've heard them all say i did not know um

00:55:51.747 --> 00:55:52.348

And to his credit,

00:55:52.368 --> 00:55:53.368

he would never brag or

00:55:53.388 --> 00:55:54.469

anything about how great of

00:55:54.489 --> 00:55:55.030

a doctor it was,

00:55:55.070 --> 00:55:56.070

but he was a really good

00:55:56.090 --> 00:55:59.593

doctor and he's very financially, uh,

00:56:00.014 --> 00:56:02.275

did very well, very well.

00:56:02.676 --> 00:56:03.162

And,

00:56:03.378 --> 00:56:05.560

he was absent from the home a lot anyway,

00:56:05.600 --> 00:56:06.501

because of his career.

00:56:07.520 --> 00:56:08.561

Yeah, I mean,

00:56:09.021 --> 00:56:10.962

it was common for him to get

00:56:11.022 --> 00:56:12.122

paged with a beeper.

00:56:12.483 --> 00:56:14.144

We all remember beepers to

00:56:14.184 --> 00:56:17.465

go deliver a baby.

00:56:18.166 --> 00:56:19.086

It happened a lot where we

00:56:19.106 --> 00:56:20.227

would be on vacation and he

00:56:20.247 --> 00:56:21.167

would have to show up two

00:56:21.187 --> 00:56:22.828

to three days late because

00:56:22.848 --> 00:56:23.709

he would have to stay.

00:56:24.669 --> 00:56:28.011

And he was very absent.

00:56:28.151 --> 00:56:28.331

I mean,

00:56:28.371 --> 00:56:30.132

he did his best to be present at

00:56:30.212 --> 00:56:32.433

games and obviously church.

00:56:32.573 --> 00:56:34.914

But when it came to him

00:56:34.954 --> 00:56:36.035

coming home after work,

00:56:36.576 --> 00:56:39.497

there was just nothing left for this guy.

00:56:39.877 --> 00:56:40.137

I mean,

00:56:40.177 --> 00:56:42.638

he would fall asleep pretty instantly.

00:56:42.698 --> 00:56:43.558

So I have a deep

00:56:44.678 --> 00:56:46.839

appreciation for that

00:56:46.879 --> 00:56:47.999

because he did give it his

00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:49.179

all for his patients.

00:56:50.060 --> 00:56:51.260

And then he was called,

00:56:51.700 --> 00:56:54.061

when I was kind of high school age,

00:56:54.141 --> 00:56:55.261

he was called in to be the

00:56:55.341 --> 00:56:57.882

stake in the stake presidency.

00:56:59.133 --> 00:57:01.354

And I remember very vividly,

00:57:02.035 --> 00:57:03.596

my mom came to me and was like,

00:57:03.956 --> 00:57:05.497

your dad's in the state presidency now.

00:57:05.717 --> 00:57:07.138

Don't do anything to embarrass him.

00:57:07.778 --> 00:57:09.199

And so that's just another

00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:10.860

outward appearance and

00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:12.281

reputation is really important.

00:57:14.923 --> 00:57:18.185

He was not present at home.

00:57:18.365 --> 00:57:21.967

He, I never saw him lift, wash a dish,

00:57:23.148 --> 00:57:24.149

never did anything.

00:57:24.964 --> 00:57:27.966

Like that didn't really help out, but he,

00:57:28.307 --> 00:57:29.107

he provided,

00:57:29.348 --> 00:57:30.769

which is what he was taught to do.

00:57:31.289 --> 00:57:35.252

He provided and he gave us amazing trips.

00:57:35.352 --> 00:57:37.494

He gave us amazing things.

00:57:38.415 --> 00:57:38.695

Um,

00:57:39.116 --> 00:57:40.977

I've got to experience so many amazing

00:57:41.017 --> 00:57:41.898

things growing up that a

00:57:41.938 --> 00:57:43.179

lot of people don't get to,

00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:45.641

and that's all because of him.

00:57:45.661 --> 00:57:49.844

But when it comes to like, did a, I mean,

00:57:49.864 --> 00:57:51.125

I've probably count on one hand,

00:57:51.145 --> 00:57:53.067

how many times he said, I'm like,

00:57:53.327 --> 00:57:54.308

verbally, I love you.

00:57:55.274 --> 00:57:57.796

Or I don't think he ever said,

00:57:57.836 --> 00:57:58.617

I'm proud of you.

00:57:59.117 --> 00:58:01.619

Or he just kind of left that

00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:03.381

to my mom because that's

00:58:03.441 --> 00:58:04.001

what the mom does.

00:58:04.021 --> 00:58:04.241

Right.

00:58:04.261 --> 00:58:07.944

And so, yes.

00:58:08.205 --> 00:58:08.525

Yeah.

00:58:08.705 --> 00:58:08.925

Yeah.

00:58:08.945 --> 00:58:10.466

And he's the provider and he

00:58:10.526 --> 00:58:12.588

presides and he tells us we

00:58:12.628 --> 00:58:13.649

can't jump in the pool on

00:58:13.689 --> 00:58:14.850

Sunday because he knows best.

00:58:15.510 --> 00:58:16.932

But going to the temple is optional.

00:58:18.002 --> 00:58:19.042

Um, and that's,

00:58:19.703 --> 00:58:21.203

he did the best he could

00:58:21.483 --> 00:58:23.524

and he really was great.

00:58:23.844 --> 00:58:25.704

And, um, a lot of people really,

00:58:25.744 --> 00:58:27.105

really admired him and I

00:58:27.165 --> 00:58:28.905

admire him in a lot of ways,

00:58:29.005 --> 00:58:32.327

but in terms of being a dad, um,

00:58:33.287 --> 00:58:35.808

that I needed his absence,

00:58:35.948 --> 00:58:39.229

honestly really contributed to, uh,

00:58:39.589 --> 00:58:40.769

my narcissism and I take

00:58:40.809 --> 00:58:42.290

full responsibility for it.

00:58:42.730 --> 00:58:45.611

Um, and now I'm trying to, to change that,

00:58:45.731 --> 00:58:46.751

but I mean, even

00:58:47.549 --> 00:58:47.669

Yeah,

00:58:47.689 --> 00:58:48.890

I watched Mary Poppins the other

00:58:48.930 --> 00:58:49.690

night just because I was

00:58:49.730 --> 00:58:52.412

craving something jolly and childhood.

00:58:52.432 --> 00:58:53.072

Because you got to have

00:58:53.112 --> 00:58:54.693

childlike joy in this life.

00:58:54.753 --> 00:58:56.594

I think we take everything too seriously.

00:58:56.634 --> 00:58:58.635

But that whole movie is not

00:58:58.675 --> 00:59:01.216

about her changing the children.

00:59:01.276 --> 00:59:02.697

It's about her changing the dad,

00:59:03.898 --> 00:59:05.358

getting the dad to be there.

00:59:05.799 --> 00:59:08.220

And that just shows you how crucial it is.

00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:09.741

And I think the church

00:59:10.781 --> 00:59:13.583

doesn't really emphasize that at all.

00:59:14.163 --> 00:59:15.564

The involvement is superficial.

00:59:16.594 --> 00:59:17.414

lead your family in

00:59:17.454 --> 00:59:19.615

righteousness but like what

00:59:19.635 --> 00:59:21.295

does that mean once again

00:59:21.335 --> 00:59:23.076

just abstract ideas no

00:59:23.116 --> 00:59:26.117

practical thing of like you

00:59:26.137 --> 00:59:27.497

know your dad you grew up

00:59:27.517 --> 00:59:28.818

in the nineteen fifties in

00:59:28.878 --> 00:59:30.058

salt lake city where it's

00:59:30.118 --> 00:59:31.258

pretty chauvinistic and

00:59:31.298 --> 00:59:32.819

patriarchal here's some

00:59:32.839 --> 00:59:33.759

things that can kind of

00:59:33.799 --> 00:59:35.820

help you you know connect

00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:36.820

with your wife more and

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:38.961

your kids more there's not

00:59:39.001 --> 00:59:39.761

that in the church

00:59:40.711 --> 00:59:41.651

The one thing that I

00:59:41.711 --> 00:59:43.652

remember is that goofy

00:59:43.792 --> 00:59:47.113

commercial from the late

00:59:47.233 --> 00:59:51.455

eighties or so that was like fatherhood.

00:59:51.675 --> 00:59:53.315

Isn't it about time?

00:59:53.875 --> 00:59:54.135

You know,

00:59:54.155 --> 00:59:55.416

and it was the dad like playing

00:59:55.456 --> 00:59:56.776

catch with his son or whatever,

00:59:57.316 --> 00:59:58.757

which was probably as

00:59:58.817 --> 01:00:00.357

touchy feely as the church

01:00:00.397 --> 01:00:03.258

ever got with men to be

01:00:03.318 --> 01:00:04.499

present for their children.

01:00:05.399 --> 01:00:07.462

So there's there's it's one

01:00:07.482 --> 01:00:09.244

thing to spend time with your kids.

01:00:09.404 --> 01:00:10.686

It's another thing to spend

01:00:10.746 --> 01:00:11.867

time with your kids one on

01:00:12.027 --> 01:00:13.870

one and have meaningful

01:00:13.910 --> 01:00:16.092

conversations with them and

01:00:16.152 --> 01:00:18.535

to say the words like you were saying,

01:00:18.675 --> 01:00:19.156

I love you.

01:00:19.256 --> 01:00:20.057

I'm proud of you.

01:00:20.157 --> 01:00:20.678

And also.

01:00:21.699 --> 01:00:23.120

it's safe for you to tell me

01:00:23.160 --> 01:00:25.400

things you can talk yeah

01:00:25.660 --> 01:00:27.261

i'm going to be here for

01:00:27.301 --> 01:00:28.381

you to support you if you

01:00:28.421 --> 01:00:29.982

do something wrong if you

01:00:30.022 --> 01:00:32.123

fail i'm here i've got you

01:00:32.603 --> 01:00:33.203

you know those are

01:00:33.243 --> 01:00:35.484

conversations that i never

01:00:36.144 --> 01:00:37.164

i never got any of that

01:00:37.244 --> 01:00:39.165

kind of support from my parents

01:00:40.123 --> 01:00:41.364

In fact, it was the opposite.

01:00:41.424 --> 01:00:42.464

As we've been talking about,

01:00:42.645 --> 01:00:44.186

I did not ever feel safe to

01:00:44.226 --> 01:00:45.406

tell my parents anything.

01:00:46.247 --> 01:00:46.987

And in fact,

01:00:47.167 --> 01:00:48.468

I felt like most of the time I

01:00:48.528 --> 01:00:50.249

had to lie to them because

01:00:50.329 --> 01:00:51.890

I knew what they wanted to hear.

01:00:52.450 --> 01:00:54.592

And I knew what I was going

01:00:54.612 --> 01:00:56.153

to say was going to upset them,

01:00:56.773 --> 01:00:57.273

anger them.

01:00:58.654 --> 01:01:00.615

um be shameful for them and

01:01:00.695 --> 01:01:02.916

so most of the time i lied

01:01:02.956 --> 01:01:03.877

and told my parents i was

01:01:03.917 --> 01:01:06.458

fine you know told them i

01:01:06.478 --> 01:01:07.298

was doing all the stuff

01:01:07.318 --> 01:01:09.319

they wanted me to do and

01:01:09.439 --> 01:01:11.080

most of the time i did but

01:01:11.140 --> 01:01:12.301

i was also a human being

01:01:12.601 --> 01:01:14.362

you know and so when i did

01:01:14.402 --> 01:01:15.602

make mistakes or i did have

01:01:15.642 --> 01:01:16.703

questions or i did have

01:01:16.743 --> 01:01:17.723

problems or i did have

01:01:17.783 --> 01:01:19.204

doubts i did not feel safe

01:01:19.224 --> 01:01:20.385

to talk to my parents about

01:01:20.445 --> 01:01:23.466

it you know i was scared to

01:01:23.486 --> 01:01:25.067

death of my father

01:01:26.146 --> 01:01:27.127

So, yeah.

01:01:27.607 --> 01:01:27.848

Yeah.

01:01:27.868 --> 01:01:28.108

So,

01:01:28.769 --> 01:01:30.811

so men are not taught in the church at

01:01:30.971 --> 01:01:32.532

all about how to

01:01:33.233 --> 01:01:36.336

meaningfully connect with their children.

01:01:36.416 --> 01:01:36.936

Not at all.

01:01:38.398 --> 01:01:40.039

I don't think they are.

01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:41.721

I think the only ones that

01:01:41.781 --> 01:01:44.264

do got lucky and their dads

01:01:44.284 --> 01:01:47.387

taught them properly, but they don't,

01:01:47.407 --> 01:01:49.549

you don't learn that in the church.

01:01:49.609 --> 01:01:49.829

Right.

01:01:50.615 --> 01:01:51.055

In fact,

01:01:51.236 --> 01:01:52.597

I think what we're really taught

01:01:52.717 --> 01:01:54.498

as parents in the church is

01:01:54.538 --> 01:01:56.360

that if we set a perfect

01:01:56.420 --> 01:01:57.921

example for our kids,

01:01:58.282 --> 01:02:02.285

that they'll never go astray.

01:02:02.385 --> 01:02:02.445

Yes.

01:02:02.465 --> 01:02:02.745

Yes.

01:02:02.825 --> 01:02:03.926

And then also,

01:02:04.807 --> 01:02:06.548

because we know that our

01:02:06.588 --> 01:02:07.890

kids are getting worthiness

01:02:07.950 --> 01:02:09.911

interviews from the bishop

01:02:09.951 --> 01:02:11.893

and from their other leaders all the time,

01:02:12.614 --> 01:02:13.554

my parents, at least,

01:02:13.955 --> 01:02:16.237

I think they probably felt like, well,

01:02:16.257 --> 01:02:17.197

she's going to learn all of

01:02:17.217 --> 01:02:18.418

that from her leaders.

01:02:19.299 --> 01:02:20.540

and if something comes up in

01:02:20.560 --> 01:02:21.521

a worthiness interview

01:02:21.541 --> 01:02:22.582

that's a real concern

01:02:22.602 --> 01:02:23.263

they're going to let us

01:02:23.323 --> 01:02:25.184

know rather than having a

01:02:25.244 --> 01:02:26.505

conversation with me about

01:02:26.585 --> 01:02:28.087

it and i know that was

01:02:28.147 --> 01:02:30.348

particularly true of sex ed

01:02:30.589 --> 01:02:32.470

i was not allowed to watch

01:02:32.510 --> 01:02:34.172

the sex ed movies in school

01:02:34.192 --> 01:02:36.954

i i was given the the weird

01:02:36.994 --> 01:02:38.035

permission slip to go to

01:02:38.055 --> 01:02:39.436

the library instead because

01:02:39.476 --> 01:02:40.697

my parents did not want me

01:02:40.757 --> 01:02:42.098

getting the secular version

01:02:43.081 --> 01:02:44.262

but then they also didn't

01:02:44.302 --> 01:02:45.943

take the time to ever talk

01:02:45.963 --> 01:02:47.184

to me personally about it.

01:02:47.545 --> 01:02:48.986

I think the assumption was like,

01:02:49.166 --> 01:02:50.147

you're learning all of this

01:02:50.207 --> 01:02:52.308

in young women's and the

01:02:52.348 --> 01:02:53.549

standards night and the

01:02:54.110 --> 01:02:55.451

first strength of youth pamphlet,

01:02:55.491 --> 01:02:56.292

that's going to teach you

01:02:56.312 --> 01:02:56.972

all of that stuff.

01:02:57.012 --> 01:02:58.854

So I'm curious about that for you.

01:02:59.494 --> 01:03:00.075

Were there ever

01:03:00.115 --> 01:03:01.516

conversations with your dad

01:03:01.596 --> 01:03:03.638

about consent or about

01:03:04.218 --> 01:03:05.479

sexual responsibility of

01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:07.801

any kind or any of that?

01:03:08.622 --> 01:03:09.002

Never.

01:03:09.142 --> 01:03:11.104

And you bring up a really great point.

01:03:11.124 --> 01:03:11.197

Um,

01:03:11.197 --> 01:03:12.911

a – so my dad

01:03:12.951 --> 01:03:14.593

passed away five and a half years ago.

01:03:15.613 --> 01:03:18.616

When we did reveal that we

01:03:18.656 --> 01:03:20.337

were leaving the church,

01:03:20.797 --> 01:03:22.459

it exactly happened what we

01:03:22.479 --> 01:03:23.179

thought would happen.

01:03:23.219 --> 01:03:24.540

He didn't really talk to us.

01:03:25.221 --> 01:03:26.882

It was never the same, and he passed away,

01:03:26.902 --> 01:03:27.823

and we never reconciled.

01:03:28.752 --> 01:03:29.872

But since then,

01:03:30.052 --> 01:03:30.752

I've had really good

01:03:30.772 --> 01:03:32.073

conversations with my mom

01:03:32.273 --> 01:03:33.133

about all of this.

01:03:33.173 --> 01:03:34.974

And she's taken it in stride

01:03:35.134 --> 01:03:36.034

and been really good.

01:03:36.074 --> 01:03:37.614

And she said those exact words.

01:03:38.235 --> 01:03:39.115

Because I kind of brought up

01:03:39.155 --> 01:03:39.975

the whole where she got

01:03:40.135 --> 01:03:44.176

really mad at me for, you know,

01:03:44.436 --> 01:03:47.437

hormones are flying and, you know,

01:03:47.477 --> 01:03:48.858

kissing a girl, whatever.

01:03:49.478 --> 01:03:49.658

Yeah.

01:03:49.718 --> 01:03:50.278

Consensual.

01:03:50.298 --> 01:03:52.379

For doing perfectly

01:03:52.419 --> 01:03:53.659

developmentally normal

01:03:53.699 --> 01:03:54.760

things as a teenage boy, right?

01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:54.960

Yeah.

01:03:56.591 --> 01:03:58.411

And she, I still remember it,

01:03:58.451 --> 01:04:00.372

like she just ripped into

01:04:00.412 --> 01:04:01.712

me and was bawling.

01:04:02.532 --> 01:04:03.593

But I was like, mom,

01:04:03.633 --> 01:04:05.273

you didn't teach me at all

01:04:05.313 --> 01:04:08.654

why that was bad or anything about sex.

01:04:08.734 --> 01:04:10.154

Like I was never taught

01:04:10.294 --> 01:04:12.094

anything about that.

01:04:12.395 --> 01:04:14.495

And she said, you know,

01:04:14.755 --> 01:04:15.455

that's just kind of

01:04:15.475 --> 01:04:16.495

something we expected you

01:04:16.515 --> 01:04:19.576

to learn in the church.

01:04:19.616 --> 01:04:20.756

What do you know?

01:04:21.156 --> 01:04:23.717

Like, if you are thinking that.

01:04:24.474 --> 01:04:25.674

The education in the church

01:04:25.774 --> 01:04:28.575

is gonna substitute the

01:04:28.615 --> 01:04:29.616

conversations you need to

01:04:29.636 --> 01:04:30.556

have with your kids.

01:04:30.756 --> 01:04:32.737

It's not even close.

01:04:32.789 --> 01:04:36.370

But my dad never had those conversations.

01:04:37.870 --> 01:04:38.571

Honestly,

01:04:39.931 --> 01:04:42.852

he would leave all the

01:04:42.892 --> 01:04:44.753

disciplining and talking to my mom.

01:04:45.093 --> 01:04:46.213

And if we were acting up,

01:04:46.293 --> 01:04:49.435

he would yell at my mom.

01:04:49.875 --> 01:04:50.275

Not us.

01:04:51.192 --> 01:04:51.452

Wow.

01:04:51.772 --> 01:04:54.894

That must've been really hard to witness.

01:04:54.954 --> 01:04:55.154

Yeah.

01:04:55.194 --> 01:05:00.297

We thought he was an asshole and, um,

01:05:00.357 --> 01:05:00.637

yeah.

01:05:00.977 --> 01:05:02.318

And hypocritical.

01:05:02.704 --> 01:05:03.784

my dad, basically,

01:05:03.824 --> 01:05:04.604

if you look at it from the

01:05:04.644 --> 01:05:07.706

perspective of the church

01:05:07.726 --> 01:05:09.587

became a very successful financially,

01:05:11.073 --> 01:05:12.074

had high ranking up

01:05:12.454 --> 01:05:13.955

positions and was admired.

01:05:14.715 --> 01:05:17.537

And I'm sure a lot of people, you know,

01:05:17.557 --> 01:05:19.198

wanted to be like my dad,

01:05:19.238 --> 01:05:19.958

but I can tell you,

01:05:19.998 --> 01:05:21.679

my dad had a miserable life.

01:05:22.460 --> 01:05:24.081

He was alone in his own house.

01:05:24.261 --> 01:05:25.982

He was anxious and nervous all the time.

01:05:26.002 --> 01:05:26.882

And I don't think he ever

01:05:26.922 --> 01:05:28.303

lived one authentic day

01:05:28.323 --> 01:05:29.944

where he actually felt true joy.

01:05:30.644 --> 01:05:33.786

And that's the problem with this system.

01:05:35.147 --> 01:05:37.208

He did everything right for the most part.

01:05:38.429 --> 01:05:40.330

And he was a stranger in his own home.

01:05:41.496 --> 01:05:43.377

He died early, scared,

01:05:43.677 --> 01:05:44.838

and he never reconciled

01:05:44.858 --> 01:05:46.638

with his three boys.

01:05:47.879 --> 01:05:51.101

And I know before he did die, he wanted to,

01:05:51.141 --> 01:05:52.321

and I know he regrets it.

01:05:52.341 --> 01:05:57.283

And all because of this stupid church.

01:05:58.404 --> 01:05:58.824

Sorry.

01:05:58.864 --> 01:05:58.964

See,

01:05:58.984 --> 01:06:01.405

that's so telling to me that as a

01:06:01.485 --> 01:06:02.366

white male,

01:06:04.321 --> 01:06:07.523

And let's just throw in white, cisgendered,

01:06:08.084 --> 01:06:11.166

heteronormative male, married to a woman,

01:06:11.966 --> 01:06:14.428

had children, got married in the temple,

01:06:15.088 --> 01:06:16.870

checked all the boxes,

01:06:16.910 --> 01:06:18.231

did everything right,

01:06:18.271 --> 01:06:19.952

was successful financially

01:06:19.992 --> 01:06:20.912

and professionally,

01:06:21.273 --> 01:06:22.073

probably got lots of

01:06:22.193 --> 01:06:23.574

accolades professionally.

01:06:23.594 --> 01:06:24.175

Yes.

01:06:26.978 --> 01:06:29.560

was awarded ever-increasing

01:06:29.620 --> 01:06:31.121

responsibility in the church,

01:06:31.321 --> 01:06:33.522

higher positions, higher callings, bishop,

01:06:33.742 --> 01:06:35.423

and then in the state presidency.

01:06:36.424 --> 01:06:38.525

That's all a man can hope for.

01:06:38.545 --> 01:06:39.986

That's all we aspire,

01:06:40.886 --> 01:06:43.007

and we do aspire to it.

01:06:43.088 --> 01:06:43.208

Yeah.

01:06:43.228 --> 01:06:45.209

Because we want that recognition.

01:06:45.269 --> 01:06:45.469

Yeah.

01:06:46.267 --> 01:06:48.408

Short of being in the in

01:06:48.448 --> 01:06:49.768

crowd in Salt Lake and

01:06:49.828 --> 01:06:51.789

knowing apostles and

01:06:51.829 --> 01:06:53.689

prophets and being called

01:06:53.729 --> 01:06:55.530

to an apostleship or to the

01:06:55.570 --> 01:06:56.510

Quorum of the Seventy or

01:06:56.530 --> 01:06:57.170

something like that,

01:06:57.210 --> 01:06:59.071

your dad achieved the

01:06:59.151 --> 01:07:02.612

pinnacle of what every man

01:07:02.732 --> 01:07:03.713

in the church is taught

01:07:03.733 --> 01:07:04.893

that they're supposed to do.

01:07:05.293 --> 01:07:06.553

He did everything right.

01:07:06.613 --> 01:07:08.474

He did everything he was told to do.

01:07:08.534 --> 01:07:10.195

He lived his life exactly

01:07:10.235 --> 01:07:11.295

the way they told him to.

01:07:12.649 --> 01:07:15.356

And he died unhappy and anxious.

01:07:17.108 --> 01:07:18.788

And you said in your words

01:07:18.828 --> 01:07:21.209

that he never experienced true joy,

01:07:21.729 --> 01:07:23.829

which is what the church

01:07:23.869 --> 01:07:27.470

teaches us is if we will do

01:07:27.570 --> 01:07:29.771

everything the way that they tell us to,

01:07:29.811 --> 01:07:31.791

that we will have happiness and joy.

01:07:32.211 --> 01:07:33.672

And here's a perfect example

01:07:33.752 --> 01:07:35.432

of someone who was the

01:07:35.612 --> 01:07:36.832

ideal Mormon and did

01:07:36.992 --> 01:07:38.413

everything that he was told

01:07:38.433 --> 01:07:40.693

to do and yet still never

01:07:40.793 --> 01:07:41.993

experienced that joy and

01:07:42.053 --> 01:07:43.874

had terrible relationships

01:07:43.894 --> 01:07:44.954

with his wife and children.

01:07:47.396 --> 01:07:47.856

Exactly.

01:07:48.236 --> 01:07:49.176

That's so sad.

01:07:49.196 --> 01:07:54.137

I know he seriously, like,

01:07:55.038 --> 01:07:56.838

everyone else looking at his life,

01:07:56.858 --> 01:07:57.798

like at the funeral,

01:07:57.838 --> 01:07:59.558

and everyone would just be like, Oh,

01:08:00.379 --> 01:08:00.959

he did it.

01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:02.279

Like, wow, he did it.

01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:06.200

But if you'd actually known man.

01:08:06.260 --> 01:08:06.440

No.

01:08:08.340 --> 01:08:08.520

No.

01:08:08.680 --> 01:08:09.841

How old was he when he died?

01:08:11.241 --> 01:08:14.361

A seven d two.

01:08:15.462 --> 01:08:16.282

Wow, just turned

01:08:18.379 --> 01:08:19.160

Which is young,

01:08:21.601 --> 01:08:23.482

especially for Mormon standards.

01:08:24.803 --> 01:08:27.305

Yeah, I think he had a lot of stress.

01:08:29.306 --> 01:08:30.047

And honestly,

01:08:32.168 --> 01:08:33.889

as much as I didn't want to

01:08:34.230 --> 01:08:36.591

become like him, I have.

01:08:36.951 --> 01:08:38.072

But it's also given me a

01:08:38.112 --> 01:08:39.493

chance to really feel deep

01:08:39.533 --> 01:08:41.134

empathy for him.

01:08:41.194 --> 01:08:42.675

And we have so much more

01:08:42.695 --> 01:08:46.218

information now about how...

01:08:47.430 --> 01:08:48.671

to cope with these feelings

01:08:48.711 --> 01:08:49.811

what these feelings are

01:08:49.851 --> 01:08:50.971

what is depression what is

01:08:51.031 --> 01:08:52.992

anxiety how to address them

01:08:53.032 --> 01:08:54.273

like i feel so much more

01:08:54.353 --> 01:08:55.953

equipped than he did and

01:08:56.013 --> 01:08:57.334

i've still struggled big

01:08:57.374 --> 01:08:59.715

time but i've been able to

01:09:00.075 --> 01:09:01.075

work through it he didn't

01:09:01.095 --> 01:09:02.856

have any of those tools and

01:09:02.916 --> 01:09:04.897

he just didn't understand

01:09:04.937 --> 01:09:08.738

why his family was detached

01:09:08.778 --> 01:09:11.259

from him why he was angry all the time

01:09:12.057 --> 01:09:14.739

uh why you know he but at

01:09:14.799 --> 01:09:16.000

least he had his patience

01:09:16.080 --> 01:09:17.361

like i'm grateful that he

01:09:17.381 --> 01:09:18.422

had them and they all loved

01:09:18.462 --> 01:09:19.363

him and i hope he got some

01:09:19.423 --> 01:09:20.744

validation from that but

01:09:20.824 --> 01:09:23.026

other than that man he he

01:09:23.066 --> 01:09:25.848

gave us everything and he i

01:09:25.888 --> 01:09:28.310

bet he was so confused and

01:09:28.350 --> 01:09:32.513

just so uh and honestly i

01:09:32.553 --> 01:09:33.874

could feel what he felt

01:09:33.995 --> 01:09:34.895

until i kind of went

01:09:34.915 --> 01:09:36.156

through this inner child

01:09:36.236 --> 01:09:37.938

healing to kind of unblock

01:09:37.958 --> 01:09:38.858

this narcissism

01:09:39.802 --> 01:09:41.544

And if I live with that for my whole life,

01:09:42.184 --> 01:09:43.645

I would have not lasted.

01:09:44.406 --> 01:09:46.268

Seventy two years.

01:09:46.948 --> 01:09:47.849

Hmm.

01:09:47.929 --> 01:09:48.149

Yeah.

01:09:48.651 --> 01:09:49.561

i do want to talk

01:09:49.581 --> 01:09:51.643

about your journey and and

01:09:51.743 --> 01:09:53.024

sort of your self-awareness

01:09:53.044 --> 01:09:54.965

like how did you how did

01:09:54.985 --> 01:09:58.607

you become aware that and i

01:09:58.647 --> 01:09:59.528

know you talked about your

01:09:59.568 --> 01:10:00.468

relationship and just

01:10:00.528 --> 01:10:02.309

listening to women um

01:10:03.510 --> 01:10:05.310

But how did you develop this

01:10:05.530 --> 01:10:09.211

ability to see where some

01:10:09.271 --> 01:10:10.291

of your problematic

01:10:10.331 --> 01:10:12.632

behaviors came from relationally?

01:10:13.172 --> 01:10:14.172

And was there sort of a

01:10:14.252 --> 01:10:15.552

light bulb moment for you

01:10:15.572 --> 01:10:20.593

or did it happen gradually over time?

01:10:20.693 --> 01:10:24.174

Yeah, it was kind of gradual,

01:10:24.434 --> 01:10:28.510

but more so just like... I...

01:10:29.262 --> 01:10:30.263

I hurt someone I really,

01:10:30.283 --> 01:10:31.044

really care about.

01:10:31.624 --> 01:10:36.068

And I actually listened to

01:10:36.108 --> 01:10:37.169

what her experience was

01:10:37.209 --> 01:10:42.373

like and how I made her feel.

01:10:42.473 --> 01:10:43.654

And there's been some things

01:10:43.674 --> 01:10:44.995

throughout my life where I

01:10:45.035 --> 01:10:45.976

couldn't relate with a

01:10:46.056 --> 01:10:48.798

certain guy or like a really sweet,

01:10:48.838 --> 01:10:50.079

just humble man.

01:10:50.139 --> 01:10:51.981

And I'd always want to be like,

01:10:52.081 --> 01:10:53.142

I wish I was more like him.

01:10:53.182 --> 01:10:53.322

Like,

01:10:53.402 --> 01:10:55.464

I can't understand how he's like that.

01:10:56.398 --> 01:10:58.219

And so I knew there was kind of that,

01:10:58.299 --> 01:11:00.260

and then you just start to

01:11:00.300 --> 01:11:03.441

realize how big of a role, what you see,

01:11:04.822 --> 01:11:06.783

uh, growing up imprints on you.

01:11:06.803 --> 01:11:07.963

And I started to see and

01:11:08.003 --> 01:11:10.545

feel exactly what my dad did.

01:11:11.605 --> 01:11:12.946

And then I started to see

01:11:13.026 --> 01:11:17.808

how my mom contributed to that or, um,

01:11:19.698 --> 01:11:21.059

allowed that to happen or

01:11:21.099 --> 01:11:22.440

maybe even made it worse

01:11:22.540 --> 01:11:24.621

under the most positive

01:11:24.661 --> 01:11:28.684

intentions um i just

01:11:28.704 --> 01:11:29.864

started to realize things

01:11:29.904 --> 01:11:31.725

about myself that started

01:11:31.765 --> 01:11:36.188

to make sense um of why i

01:11:36.208 --> 01:11:37.529

felt like that like there

01:11:37.549 --> 01:11:39.230

was times where i was like

01:11:39.250 --> 01:11:40.671

this was in rehab when i

01:11:40.691 --> 01:11:41.832

was really you're faced

01:11:41.872 --> 01:11:43.072

with some times to just sit

01:11:43.092 --> 01:11:44.413

there and think through all

01:11:44.433 --> 01:11:45.734

of this and it's like am i

01:11:45.754 --> 01:11:47.235

a good person or do i just

01:11:47.275 --> 01:11:48.796

want to do the good thing so that

01:11:49.365 --> 01:11:51.946

people think I'm a good person.

01:11:52.286 --> 01:11:56.549

That was rough because I didn't know.

01:11:57.069 --> 01:11:58.049

Then I started to think

01:11:58.069 --> 01:11:59.090

about my upbringing.

01:12:01.391 --> 01:12:02.412

You just start to realize

01:12:02.452 --> 01:12:03.772

that everything you were

01:12:03.812 --> 01:12:05.153

taught is not really you.

01:12:07.701 --> 01:12:10.322

You're that pure joy

01:12:11.722 --> 01:12:13.643

four-year-old kid that's

01:12:13.683 --> 01:12:15.024

just pure of light and

01:12:15.124 --> 01:12:16.984

exploration and curiosity.

01:12:17.264 --> 01:12:18.365

And that's who we are.

01:12:18.805 --> 01:12:20.986

That's who we all are at our core.

01:12:22.126 --> 01:12:24.487

And thinking about that

01:12:24.687 --> 01:12:26.027

unity and then doing some

01:12:26.127 --> 01:12:27.768

exercises and realizing

01:12:27.808 --> 01:12:31.069

that all of this was just a

01:12:31.129 --> 01:12:33.310

product of upbringing and

01:12:33.370 --> 01:12:36.591

then some maladaptive things.

01:12:37.181 --> 01:12:38.242

so then it made it really

01:12:38.322 --> 01:12:40.383

easy to you know you get on

01:12:40.443 --> 01:12:41.704

all the resources now chat

01:12:41.724 --> 01:12:43.846

gbt you know what are some

01:12:43.986 --> 01:12:45.827

indicators of this i i was

01:12:45.867 --> 01:12:46.728

raised with this and then

01:12:46.748 --> 01:12:48.269

it was really easy to start

01:12:48.289 --> 01:12:51.492

to piece together um maybe

01:12:51.572 --> 01:12:55.895

why i you know my integrity

01:12:55.935 --> 01:12:57.016

was strong in front of

01:12:57.056 --> 01:12:58.977

other people but alone i

01:12:58.997 --> 01:13:00.138

just didn't care because it

01:13:00.158 --> 01:13:01.539

was just me and myself and

01:13:01.579 --> 01:13:02.780

then i realized you know

01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:04.261

some of the connections we made today

01:13:05.991 --> 01:13:08.753

But it came from a strong

01:13:08.793 --> 01:13:11.375

desire to not feel this

01:13:11.435 --> 01:13:13.016

pain and agony anymore.

01:13:13.136 --> 01:13:14.136

And I think what really

01:13:14.156 --> 01:13:15.297

helped was I finally just

01:13:15.337 --> 01:13:17.719

allowed myself to feel the shame.

01:13:19.540 --> 01:13:22.281

And that was like agonizing screen crying.

01:13:23.522 --> 01:13:25.824

And that even surprised me.

01:13:25.944 --> 01:13:27.565

And I just admitted and I

01:13:27.605 --> 01:13:29.866

accepted that I hurt

01:13:29.906 --> 01:13:31.527

someone I loved and I am

01:13:31.547 --> 01:13:33.448

the reason they're gone and

01:13:33.528 --> 01:13:34.529

I am the reason they're hurting.

01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:37.180

you kind of let that

01:13:37.240 --> 01:13:41.203

go and then you will do

01:13:41.303 --> 01:13:42.644

anything to not feel that

01:13:42.804 --> 01:13:43.505

and so I'm like there's

01:13:43.525 --> 01:13:44.285

something here there's

01:13:44.305 --> 01:13:45.246

something wrong with me

01:13:45.486 --> 01:13:48.188

honestly a little bit that

01:13:48.428 --> 01:13:49.629

I no longer want to feel

01:13:49.649 --> 01:13:52.671

like this and I I know that

01:13:53.424 --> 01:13:54.144

i've tried to kind of

01:13:54.285 --> 01:13:55.325

analyze i've always tried

01:13:55.345 --> 01:13:56.486

to analyze my way out of

01:13:56.526 --> 01:13:57.607

things but then i think i

01:13:57.647 --> 01:13:58.667

had a really good healer

01:13:58.707 --> 01:14:00.508

kind of come and say you

01:14:00.548 --> 01:14:02.209

actually got to go through

01:14:02.510 --> 01:14:04.811

and maybe heal those parts

01:14:04.851 --> 01:14:06.112

of you and your inner child

01:14:06.252 --> 01:14:07.753

and that actually made me

01:14:07.793 --> 01:14:09.634

want to become a healer and i'm

01:14:11.108 --> 01:14:12.609

a few hours away from being

01:14:12.629 --> 01:14:14.370

a certified healer because

01:14:14.430 --> 01:14:16.272

I really believe in inner child healing.

01:14:16.612 --> 01:14:17.673

And I believe a lot of these

01:14:17.773 --> 01:14:18.793

wounds and a lot of these

01:14:18.833 --> 01:14:21.495

blocks come from what we

01:14:21.515 --> 01:14:22.916

were taught as a little kid.

01:14:23.356 --> 01:14:25.137

And there's a way to go back

01:14:25.197 --> 01:14:26.738

and talk to that sweet

01:14:26.778 --> 01:14:28.720

little girl or boy and make

01:14:28.740 --> 01:14:30.681

them feel safe and let them

01:14:30.721 --> 01:14:32.102

kind of take over more.

01:14:32.422 --> 01:14:34.143

And then it's so much easier

01:14:34.183 --> 01:14:35.424

to love everyone else.

01:14:35.444 --> 01:14:36.605

And it's so much easier to

01:14:37.445 --> 01:14:38.486

give all these mormons a

01:14:38.546 --> 01:14:41.148

pass and just not hate them

01:14:41.228 --> 01:14:42.470

or be so frustrated that

01:14:42.490 --> 01:14:43.811

they can't see what you see

01:14:44.271 --> 01:14:46.533

but just understand they're

01:14:46.553 --> 01:14:47.434

just doing their best of

01:14:47.454 --> 01:14:48.395

what they think is right

01:14:48.915 --> 01:14:49.976

and everyone's at a

01:14:50.036 --> 01:14:51.758

different point you know

01:14:51.798 --> 01:14:53.519

but i i hope to be able to

01:14:53.560 --> 01:14:54.600

bring light that it is

01:14:54.681 --> 01:14:57.763

possible and to the mormons

01:14:57.903 --> 01:14:58.904

out there you bear

01:14:58.944 --> 01:15:00.826

testimony all the time i've

01:15:00.866 --> 01:15:02.087

been been in the church and

01:15:02.127 --> 01:15:03.849

i have felt the spirit so strong

01:15:05.295 --> 01:15:06.716

And I served a two year mission.

01:15:06.836 --> 01:15:07.917

Oh, we didn't even get into that.

01:15:08.237 --> 01:15:09.097

A two year mission is a

01:15:09.157 --> 01:15:09.918

breeding ground for

01:15:09.978 --> 01:15:11.059

emotional manipulation.

01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:12.359

That's where we learned how

01:15:12.379 --> 01:15:14.441

to emotionally manipulate really,

01:15:14.461 --> 01:15:14.921

really well.

01:15:15.541 --> 01:15:15.942

Um,

01:15:15.962 --> 01:15:18.283

but I felt all of those wonderful things.

01:15:18.764 --> 01:15:18.984

Um,

01:15:19.804 --> 01:15:22.046

and now in the past six months I have

01:15:22.086 --> 01:15:25.308

felt this and it's unlike

01:15:25.368 --> 01:15:27.029

anything I have ever felt before.

01:15:27.109 --> 01:15:28.310

It is true joy.

01:15:28.950 --> 01:15:30.751

And ever since that I'm

01:15:31.492 --> 01:15:33.733

looking for that and.

01:15:34.917 --> 01:15:36.578

if you're in the church or whatever,

01:15:36.938 --> 01:15:38.339

there is something far greater.

01:15:39.220 --> 01:15:40.340

And it doesn't come from God.

01:15:40.781 --> 01:15:41.961

And it doesn't come from the Holy Ghost.

01:15:41.981 --> 01:15:44.583

It comes from you loving your inner child.

01:15:44.603 --> 01:15:47.845

Because we're all just truth.

01:15:48.665 --> 01:15:49.666

We're all pure light.

01:15:49.986 --> 01:15:51.967

And then we get blankets

01:15:51.987 --> 01:15:53.528

thrown on us to protect us.

01:15:53.648 --> 01:15:55.870

And then we adapt.

01:15:56.210 --> 01:15:57.591

And so I would say it just,

01:15:58.511 --> 01:15:59.772

once you understand that,

01:16:00.332 --> 01:16:01.833

then it's easy to start to

01:16:01.913 --> 01:16:04.475

see where manipulation started.

01:16:05.608 --> 01:16:09.250

where you were taught it's

01:16:09.331 --> 01:16:13.153

more important to you know

01:16:13.173 --> 01:16:14.194

get up there and bear your

01:16:14.214 --> 01:16:15.475

testimony when you have

01:16:15.515 --> 01:16:17.476

that byu internet interview

01:16:17.516 --> 01:16:19.137

coming up and you need to

01:16:19.277 --> 01:16:21.078

look good and you know you

01:16:21.098 --> 01:16:22.119

do everything you need to

01:16:22.159 --> 01:16:24.841

do to get by and that's

01:16:24.861 --> 01:16:26.322

just learned behavior and

01:16:26.342 --> 01:16:27.422

that's not who what our

01:16:27.462 --> 01:16:29.624

true nature is yeah and

01:16:29.744 --> 01:16:32.926

once you accept that i did

01:16:32.966 --> 01:16:34.387

this to avoid shame

01:16:35.073 --> 01:16:36.134

And it made perfect sense

01:16:36.174 --> 01:16:37.275

for me because I was the

01:16:37.295 --> 01:16:39.216

youngest of four and I was

01:16:39.256 --> 01:16:41.298

the baby and everyone just loved on me.

01:16:42.078 --> 01:16:45.801

And we avoided conflict like the plague.

01:16:47.156 --> 01:16:48.537

And I kind of became a

01:16:48.717 --> 01:16:50.597

different person around my oldest brother,

01:16:50.617 --> 01:16:52.278

a different person around my next brother,

01:16:52.358 --> 01:16:53.618

a different person about my

01:16:53.678 --> 01:16:55.619

sister to keep everyone happy.

01:16:56.319 --> 01:16:58.280

And then you just do some

01:16:58.320 --> 01:17:00.000

nice self-reflection and

01:17:00.140 --> 01:17:02.061

it's really motivating because you know,

01:17:02.401 --> 01:17:04.002

on the other side of that discomfort is,

01:17:04.262 --> 01:17:06.223

is real breakthrough where

01:17:06.243 --> 01:17:10.064

you can unblock a ton of joy.

01:17:10.084 --> 01:17:12.185

Do you feel that developing

01:17:12.225 --> 01:17:13.825

compassion for yourself

01:17:14.185 --> 01:17:15.025

helped you to have

01:17:15.085 --> 01:17:16.346

compassion for other people?

01:17:18.008 --> 01:17:18.368

Yeah.

01:17:18.729 --> 01:17:18.989

Yeah.

01:17:19.089 --> 01:17:19.930

And a big thing with

01:17:19.970 --> 01:17:23.172

narcissism and where if

01:17:23.232 --> 01:17:25.074

we're incapable of loving ourselves,

01:17:25.094 --> 01:17:26.355

how are we capable of

01:17:26.435 --> 01:17:27.916

loving our partner to the

01:17:27.956 --> 01:17:29.237

extent that they deserve?

01:17:30.258 --> 01:17:31.699

And you have to be willing

01:17:31.839 --> 01:17:34.922

to give yourself some grace

01:17:35.762 --> 01:17:37.644

and understand a lot of

01:17:37.664 --> 01:17:39.065

this healing is going back

01:17:39.105 --> 01:17:42.408

and just learning that all

01:17:42.448 --> 01:17:43.368

these things you've done

01:17:43.388 --> 01:17:45.170

have been just to adapt.

01:17:46.331 --> 01:17:47.732

And it's what you saw growing up.

01:17:49.405 --> 01:17:51.528

And the second you become

01:17:51.568 --> 01:17:52.770

aware of it is the second

01:17:52.990 --> 01:17:53.751

you can heal it.

01:17:53.811 --> 01:17:54.712

So, yes,

01:17:54.953 --> 01:17:56.875

I still struggle with it or I'm a

01:17:56.935 --> 01:17:59.579

work in progress because I

01:17:59.639 --> 01:18:01.441

still do things that I don't love.

01:18:01.521 --> 01:18:03.664

But unfortunately,

01:18:03.684 --> 01:18:04.345

when you're raised with the

01:18:04.385 --> 01:18:06.688

church and you're trying to be perfect.

01:18:07.676 --> 01:18:09.117

and you're just any bad

01:18:09.137 --> 01:18:09.997

thing you do you have to

01:18:10.057 --> 01:18:11.697

repent of it immediately to

01:18:11.757 --> 01:18:13.718

get it so you're clean that

01:18:13.758 --> 01:18:15.519

is not how you live a great

01:18:15.559 --> 01:18:17.699

life you live a great life

01:18:17.739 --> 01:18:19.500

by screwing up and learning

01:18:20.300 --> 01:18:21.541

and experiencing and

01:18:21.581 --> 01:18:23.701

changing your mind and and

01:18:23.881 --> 01:18:25.302

and seeing new perspectives

01:18:25.602 --> 01:18:27.783

if you just live trying to avoid sin

01:18:28.811 --> 01:18:30.732

that is going to lead you to

01:18:31.032 --> 01:18:32.733

just trying to live a comfortable life.

01:18:32.953 --> 01:18:34.954

And it's going to be a very

01:18:35.094 --> 01:18:36.055

unfulfilling life.

01:18:36.775 --> 01:18:39.496

And that's so sad.

01:18:39.556 --> 01:18:40.457

Yeah, it is really sad.

01:18:40.477 --> 01:18:42.838

Yeah.

01:18:42.858 --> 01:18:43.178

But yes,

01:18:43.218 --> 01:18:46.680

you got to learn to love yourself.

01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:47.900

And what really helped me

01:18:47.940 --> 01:18:49.301

was that I just kind of saw

01:18:49.341 --> 01:18:51.702

that these bad things and

01:18:51.722 --> 01:18:52.823

how I hurt someone was,

01:18:54.203 --> 01:18:57.125

was what I was shown and my

01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:00.200

adaptation to that growing up.

01:19:01.040 --> 01:19:03.361

And then that became imprinted and,

01:19:04.621 --> 01:19:05.301

and you see,

01:19:05.341 --> 01:19:06.462

and you start to act how your

01:19:06.502 --> 01:19:08.082

parents acted.

01:19:09.102 --> 01:19:12.423

And well, did, did your, did your dad,

01:19:13.324 --> 01:19:14.644

how did your dad treat your mom?

01:19:15.444 --> 01:19:17.505

And if you're a guy and you can say, ah,

01:19:17.545 --> 01:19:19.426

not very well, then you gotta be careful.

01:19:20.466 --> 01:19:21.566

You gotta be real careful.

01:19:21.586 --> 01:19:23.407

Yeah.

01:19:23.427 --> 01:19:25.467

Because you don't want to do that.

01:19:25.527 --> 01:19:27.148

You saw it and that's imprinted.

01:19:27.821 --> 01:19:29.862

It was modeled for you every single day.

01:19:30.702 --> 01:19:32.143

You saw those interactions.

01:19:32.863 --> 01:19:33.704

And for me,

01:19:33.944 --> 01:19:35.244

I saw a lack of healthy

01:19:35.284 --> 01:19:37.145

communication from my parents.

01:19:37.165 --> 01:19:38.466

Oh, yeah.

01:19:38.486 --> 01:19:40.046

There was no resolution.

01:19:40.647 --> 01:19:40.987

Right.

01:19:41.347 --> 01:19:44.108

Healthy conflict resolution didn't exist.

01:19:44.248 --> 01:19:44.829

Right.

01:19:44.989 --> 01:19:45.589

Yeah.

01:19:46.149 --> 01:19:46.389

Well,

01:19:46.669 --> 01:19:48.710

I definitely want to have you back to

01:19:48.750 --> 01:19:50.091

talk about emotional

01:19:50.131 --> 01:19:52.112

manipulation in the mission,

01:19:52.432 --> 01:19:54.333

because I think that is

01:19:54.593 --> 01:19:56.474

another key to unlocking.

01:19:57.664 --> 01:19:59.024

how narcissism happens.

01:19:59.064 --> 01:20:00.605

Like when we learn how to

01:20:00.665 --> 01:20:01.685

emotionally manipulate

01:20:01.725 --> 01:20:02.625

people and we learn that

01:20:02.645 --> 01:20:04.705

that's not only for their own good,

01:20:05.485 --> 01:20:07.706

but for the greater good of humanity,

01:20:07.766 --> 01:20:09.666

that's institutional narcissism.

01:20:10.426 --> 01:20:12.206

And I would, I'd love to have another,

01:20:12.366 --> 01:20:14.747

another conversation about that as well.

01:20:15.607 --> 01:20:15.987

Yeah.

01:20:16.027 --> 01:20:20.628

To add that layer of, you know, to,

01:20:20.668 --> 01:20:21.728

to work your way up in the

01:20:21.768 --> 01:20:24.649

patriarchy and in the male

01:20:24.689 --> 01:20:26.609

is you got to be powerful, charismatic,

01:20:27.619 --> 01:20:29.040

um good businessmen and

01:20:29.080 --> 01:20:30.161

that's true in the church

01:20:30.221 --> 01:20:32.123

but then you add this whole

01:20:33.104 --> 01:20:35.706

be seen to be spiritual and

01:20:35.766 --> 01:20:38.228

emotional that adds a whole

01:20:38.288 --> 01:20:39.809

new level of manipulation

01:20:40.530 --> 01:20:42.872

yeah that is toxic as hell

01:20:43.372 --> 01:20:44.673

and we all learn how to do

01:20:44.733 --> 01:20:46.475

it uh on our missions just

01:20:46.495 --> 01:20:47.776

real quick if all the guys

01:20:47.976 --> 01:20:48.797

hearing this are starting

01:20:48.817 --> 01:20:49.837

to get upset you know when

01:20:49.857 --> 01:20:50.838

you're giving that lesson

01:20:50.898 --> 01:20:52.880

to an investigator and

01:20:53.060 --> 01:20:54.141

you're up next and you're

01:20:54.161 --> 01:20:55.142

going to recite joseph

01:20:55.162 --> 01:20:56.043

smith's first vision

01:20:56.823 --> 01:20:59.305

You're trying to build up

01:20:59.385 --> 01:21:00.786

some emotionality to it.

01:21:00.806 --> 01:21:02.607

You're trying to present it

01:21:02.787 --> 01:21:05.049

in something so they will feel something.

01:21:05.649 --> 01:21:06.970

That's emotional manipulation.

01:21:07.550 --> 01:21:08.651

Yeah.

01:21:08.671 --> 01:21:09.772

Plain and simple.

01:21:09.852 --> 01:21:10.312

Yeah.

01:21:10.452 --> 01:21:11.473

And that's just the

01:21:11.493 --> 01:21:12.914

scratching the surface of it.

01:21:12.954 --> 01:21:14.095

And that's why I say I want

01:21:14.115 --> 01:21:15.356

to have you back because we

01:21:15.376 --> 01:21:16.396

could talk for another two

01:21:16.437 --> 01:21:17.857

or three hours about the

01:21:17.898 --> 01:21:19.519

emotional manipulation piece of it.

01:21:20.432 --> 01:21:22.114

yeah and i'm gonna start

01:21:22.194 --> 01:21:23.295

talking about this more

01:21:23.315 --> 01:21:24.616

because i really just i

01:21:24.657 --> 01:21:26.138

want guys to start having i

01:21:26.178 --> 01:21:27.159

want this to be more of a

01:21:27.239 --> 01:21:28.420

normal conversation i know

01:21:28.440 --> 01:21:29.462

it's uncomfortable it was

01:21:29.522 --> 01:21:31.884

uncomfortable to me um to

01:21:31.944 --> 01:21:34.046

learn that i had benefited

01:21:34.086 --> 01:21:35.388

the most from this and i

01:21:35.408 --> 01:21:36.289

didn't want to give up that

01:21:36.329 --> 01:21:38.791

power and but it's the only

01:21:38.831 --> 01:21:42.055

way to feel true joy yeah

01:21:42.502 --> 01:21:43.403

I really believe so.

01:21:44.044 --> 01:21:44.524

I agree with you.

01:21:44.584 --> 01:21:48.048

Narcissism being that unauthentic,

01:21:48.768 --> 01:21:51.411

being not authentic and

01:21:51.451 --> 01:21:53.153

putting a mask on every day,

01:21:53.753 --> 01:21:55.675

even the nuanced little bit,

01:21:56.036 --> 01:21:56.996

if it's not blatant,

01:21:57.077 --> 01:21:58.138

it's still there and it can

01:21:58.198 --> 01:22:00.120

really get in the way of

01:22:00.580 --> 01:22:02.902

your capacity for love for

01:22:02.942 --> 01:22:04.564

yourself and for other people.

01:22:06.237 --> 01:22:06.437

Yeah,

01:22:06.517 --> 01:22:08.379

I think you said something really key

01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:10.021

right at the beginning that

01:22:10.401 --> 01:22:12.683

narcissism is a mechanism

01:22:12.723 --> 01:22:14.765

for shame avoidance.

01:22:14.926 --> 01:22:15.166

And

01:22:16.697 --> 01:22:17.858

I just keep coming back to

01:22:17.898 --> 01:22:20.060

the idea that we can't

01:22:20.160 --> 01:22:22.542

avoid shame or other

01:22:22.582 --> 01:22:23.663

painful and difficult

01:22:23.803 --> 01:22:25.545

emotions without also

01:22:26.025 --> 01:22:27.687

shielding ourselves from

01:22:27.807 --> 01:22:29.348

experiencing true joy.

01:22:29.849 --> 01:22:30.850

And I think that's a lot of

01:22:30.890 --> 01:22:32.131

what you've been saying today.

01:22:32.231 --> 01:22:34.193

And that resonates really deeply with me.

01:22:35.594 --> 01:22:37.335

I think as a person who was

01:22:37.416 --> 01:22:40.538

raised in a narcissistic family system,

01:22:42.475 --> 01:22:43.835

I think more than anything,

01:22:44.936 --> 01:22:48.616

I dissociated so often just

01:22:48.636 --> 01:22:49.616

to avoid feeling the

01:22:49.656 --> 01:22:51.757

painful feelings that came up for me.

01:22:52.677 --> 01:22:54.077