Former LDS Missionary EXPOSES Emotional Manipulation Tactics Used by the Mormon Church, Part 1

WEBVTT

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Hello, everyone.

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Welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

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I'm your host, Megan Conner.

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And today I am joined once

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again by Jonathan from the

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House of Deconstruction on TikTok.

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How are you, Jonathan?

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I am wonderful.

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How have you been?

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I've been great.

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It's so great to have you back.

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I loved our conversation last time.

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And I can't wait to hear more.

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Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

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Thank you for having me back.

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Yeah, of course.

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So I know last time we

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talked a lot about your

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story in coming out of the Mormon church.

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We talked about your upbringing,

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your family,

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and your relationship with your dad.

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And I really appreciated you

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being vulnerable enough to

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share that with us and just

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to be able to even be aware

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enough to realize that

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you've got some unhealthy

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relational patterns.

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I just think that's heroic

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and I'm really grateful for that.

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Well, thank you.

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I think it's possible for everyone.

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And that's kind of why, you know,

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talking about it,

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because as we said last time,

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like on the other side of

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it is a lot of joy that I

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don't think a lot of people

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know is there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And it's hard to get to that

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without dealing with a lot

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of uncomfortable issues.

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And it's hard work.

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It is, it is.

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But that hard work is what

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what makes it so sweet.

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And then if you can get that

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out of your body and then

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go back to just who you

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really are at our core,

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it makes life so much better.

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It makes it so much more sweet,

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full of joy.

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You have a lot more room in

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your soul to love others and yourself.

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Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

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Well,

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I know last time we said we wanted to

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talk about emotional

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manipulation in the

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Missionary Training Center

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of the Church of Jesus

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Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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Lots of long phrases there.

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So I know you did serve a mission,

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and you shared with me a

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little bit about some of that experience.

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So where would you like to begin?

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Oh, goodness.

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I really want to start by just to all...

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Return missionaries,

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whether you're Mormon or ex-Mormon,

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whether you served two years,

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eighteen months or you came back early.

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I appreciate you so much.

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And through this healing journey, you know,

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I think back to things I

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said on my mission and did.

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And honestly,

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there's a lot of icks there

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that I'm working on.

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You know,

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I think I was the most I think

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back to when have I been

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the most arrogant?

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in my entire life.

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And it was,

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it was on my mission and things

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I said and it, and,

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but that's a part of the

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healing is accepting that.

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And I, and I really want to point out,

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this was not your fault.

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You were trained,

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you were abused and you

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were put into a coercive control,

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emotional manipulation,

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and you were trained and programmed and

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used for your goodness.

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Your goodness was used against you.

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And I'm so sorry that that

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happened to you.

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And I'm so sorry you had to

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take those years of your

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life and devote everything

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you had to something.

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And they basically, they used you.

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And they used their tactics,

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as we talked about last week,

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They taught you that.

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They reinforced that.

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And then you went out and

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did that because you

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thought that was right.

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Because they have so many

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emotionally manipulating

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tactics and narcissistic

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abuse patterns that they put us through.

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And then we then went out

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and did that to the people

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that we were teaching.

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And so I have deep empathy.

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I have deep gratitude for ex-Mormons,

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Mormons who served.

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You know,

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we all joke we have a lot of PTSD

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from our missions, and rightfully so.

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And that's okay.

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We were trained.

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We were brainwashed.

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And we were manipulated and

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put into a high-control

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situation where they cut us

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off from everything.

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And my former partner was in

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the military and it's the same thing.

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They use that to break you.

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They use that to isolate you.

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They use that to make it so

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your only lifeline is the church.

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why, you know,

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a lot of males and females, you know,

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might be wondering, you know, why,

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maybe not the awareness of

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I'm manipulating people,

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but I don't really like how

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I act and I'm unhappy.

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Well,

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a lot of that was a breeding ground

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in your mission and the

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training that they taught you.

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Yeah.

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Thanks for doing that,

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for letting everybody have

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some validation for their experiences.

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I think when we go through

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traumatic things,

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there can never be enough people saying,

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you know,

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I'm sorry you went through that.

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I believe you.

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And it wasn't your fault.

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You know, so thank you for doing that.

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For anyone who served a

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mission that has difficult

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feelings about it, you know,

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I appreciate you validating

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people for that.

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Yeah, and for most of us,

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a mission is a huge part of our life.

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And it shapes who we are.

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We learn a lot on our mission, obviously.

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But there was definitely

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abuse that you went through.

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There was definitely

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manipulation that you went through.

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And that deserves some space.

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That deserves some acknowledgement.

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and to kind of sit with that

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and understand as we said

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last week so all of this is

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just programming we are not

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good or bad there is

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nothing good or bad there

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is simply what we learned

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there is simply what we saw

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and we see a lot of this on

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the mission which is for

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guys i cannot speak to

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women i know it's very

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important but for a guy

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the mission is the most

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important thing you could

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ever possibly do.

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And there's so much pressure

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surrounding it.

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And goodness gracious, if you had a,

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an independent thought of,

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I don't necessarily want to do this.

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My goodness, I look up to you so much.

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For all of you who said no

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to a mission and were

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raised in the church,

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I commend you because you

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were so much further along

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than I was in just

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understanding what is

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important to you and being

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your authentic you.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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I think often about the time

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that I was in the temple and, you know,

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when you go into the temple for yourself,

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they give you a little pink name tag.

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So you get identified as

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somebody who's going

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through the very first time.

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And I was sitting in a

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session one Saturday

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morning and this young

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missionary to be came in

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with his parents and

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His mom was sitting on the

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women's side and he was

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sitting on the men's side with his dad.

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And at the very beginning of

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the temple ceremony,

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before you even know

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anything about what you're about to do,

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because it's all been kept

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secret up to this point,

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part of the recording is,

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if any of you wish to withdraw,

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rather than take upon you

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these obligations and promises to God,

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you should depart now, basically.

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It's not the exact wording,

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but it's something like that.

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And again,

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this is before you even know

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what promises you're going to make.

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And this young missionary

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stood up and walked out.

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And I was shocked.

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I'd never seen anybody get

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up and leave during that

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invitation because there's

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so much social pressure to

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stay and to just go with it.

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And

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It was a very, it felt like the longest,

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sixty seconds of my life.

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This kid, you know,

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getting up and walking out and just,

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it was already quiet, of course,

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but it was like a palpable

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tension filled the room.

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His mom started crying and

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his dad got up and went after him.

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And I often think about that kiddo.

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You know,

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I often think about what his life

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was like after that.

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You know,

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what happened on the other side

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of that door?

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You know,

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did he was he able to be honest

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with his dad about his feelings?

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And, you know,

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his mom stayed and did the

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entire session.

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That was mind blowing to me.

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And I was like, me as a mom,

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I would have gone,

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I probably would have

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gotten up and gone out too,

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because I would have wanted

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to know what was going on with my kid.

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But anyway,

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I think about people who had the strength,

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like you were saying, to stand up and say,

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I'm not doing this.

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You know, this isn't for me, you know,

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that had the strength to

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resist that social pressure

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to stay on the treadmill,

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to stay in the boat, as they say.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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So before we get any farther down the road,

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I want to show a slide that

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has some of the traits of narcissism.

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And I've come up with this

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silly little acronym

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because I think a lot of

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times narcissists

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people who have narcissistic

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traits will put on a very

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sparkly exterior in public.

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And then in private,

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there's somebody different.

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Now, this is not universally true.

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There's all kinds of

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different types of narcissism.

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But this is just a way to

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help people who don't know

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very much about these

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personality traits to identify them,

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you know,

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in people that they might know

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in their own lives.

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So this is my silly little acronym,

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ungleamy.

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I just put the first letters

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of all of the traits up

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there and I was like,

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what word can I make out of this?

00:10:33.624 --> 00:10:35.305

So that's how I came up with it.

00:10:35.345 --> 00:10:37.426

But I think the big one is

00:10:37.446 --> 00:10:40.147

that inability to accept responsibility,

00:10:41.748 --> 00:10:43.089

a need for constant

00:10:43.249 --> 00:10:45.150

external validation or attention.

00:10:46.010 --> 00:10:49.354

The grandiosity of the next

00:10:49.394 --> 00:10:50.595

big trip or the next big

00:10:50.635 --> 00:10:52.858

thing or the famous person I know,

00:10:52.918 --> 00:10:53.639

things like that.

00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:55.641

A lack of empathy,

00:10:55.661 --> 00:10:56.682

which is sort of an

00:10:57.043 --> 00:10:59.886

inability to understand how

00:11:00.387 --> 00:11:02.048

your words and actions are

00:11:02.089 --> 00:11:03.750

affecting other people and

00:11:03.790 --> 00:11:04.872

the impact that that might

00:11:04.912 --> 00:11:05.713

have in their lives.

00:11:07.053 --> 00:11:07.814

entitled,

00:11:07.894 --> 00:11:09.314

feeling like the rules shouldn't

00:11:09.334 --> 00:11:10.075

apply to me.

00:11:10.255 --> 00:11:11.655

I don't need to stand in line.

00:11:11.995 --> 00:11:13.056

It's okay if I run the red

00:11:13.096 --> 00:11:15.577

light because I'm late and

00:11:15.617 --> 00:11:17.958

I'm more important.

00:11:18.818 --> 00:11:19.658

And arrogance,

00:11:19.678 --> 00:11:20.879

that's part of the thing

00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:21.879

that you've talked about

00:11:22.700 --> 00:11:24.761

and which I say a lot all the time.

00:11:24.781 --> 00:11:26.201

There is almost no more

00:11:26.301 --> 00:11:27.322

arrogant position in the

00:11:27.362 --> 00:11:28.482

world than to think that

00:11:28.522 --> 00:11:29.482

you are the one true

00:11:29.542 --> 00:11:30.623

religion and that nobody

00:11:30.683 --> 00:11:31.663

else has any truth.

00:11:35.174 --> 00:11:36.675

Manipulation, obviously,

00:11:36.695 --> 00:11:37.535

we talked about that.

00:11:38.536 --> 00:11:40.137

Deeply insecure, usually,

00:11:40.337 --> 00:11:42.018

and quite exploitative,

00:11:42.078 --> 00:11:42.718

meaning they're going to

00:11:42.738 --> 00:11:43.698

take advantage of every

00:11:43.758 --> 00:11:45.039

person in every situation

00:11:45.079 --> 00:11:46.160

that they possibly can.

00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:48.861

And so just looking at these

00:11:48.901 --> 00:11:50.102

personality traits,

00:11:50.902 --> 00:11:51.903

what are some of the things

00:11:52.383 --> 00:11:53.503

that come to mind right

00:11:53.544 --> 00:11:57.025

away that when you were in

00:11:57.045 --> 00:11:59.026

the MTC learning how to be

00:11:59.126 --> 00:12:00.127

a Mormon missionary...

00:12:01.838 --> 00:12:03.779

how did they sort of

00:12:04.079 --> 00:12:06.320

encourage you to use some

00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:07.161

of these traits?

00:12:08.962 --> 00:12:09.262

Wow.

00:12:09.862 --> 00:12:13.985

All of them, honestly, all of them.

00:12:14.525 --> 00:12:15.806

And a lot of that comes back

00:12:15.846 --> 00:12:19.227

to thinking you're the only true church.

00:12:19.508 --> 00:12:21.128

And that just allows you to

00:12:21.208 --> 00:12:24.230

plow right through anyone's objections.

00:12:24.330 --> 00:12:26.911

But before we dive into that, um,

00:12:26.931 --> 00:12:28.993

let's just talk, uh, manipulative.

00:12:29.453 --> 00:12:29.573

Um,

00:12:30.700 --> 00:12:33.082

you are encouraged to share

00:12:33.162 --> 00:12:34.643

if you don't have a

00:12:34.683 --> 00:12:37.144

testimony um or you're

00:12:37.905 --> 00:12:39.326

feeling a little insecure

00:12:39.346 --> 00:12:41.207

about it they really preach

00:12:41.507 --> 00:12:45.690

to to bear it often so

00:12:45.850 --> 00:12:46.871

you're basically

00:12:47.051 --> 00:12:48.512

gaslighting someone into

00:12:48.552 --> 00:12:49.653

saying if you don't believe

00:12:49.673 --> 00:12:50.594

that's fine just keep

00:12:50.794 --> 00:12:52.395

saying that you believe

00:12:52.655 --> 00:12:54.717

keep bearing your testimony

00:12:55.457 --> 00:12:57.759

and then um let's get into

00:12:58.988 --> 00:13:00.689

Well, before you go on,

00:13:00.729 --> 00:13:03.951

let me just say how often that I heard,

00:13:03.991 --> 00:13:04.992

and I don't know if you

00:13:05.032 --> 00:13:06.413

heard this particular thing,

00:13:06.433 --> 00:13:08.334

but a testimony is gained

00:13:08.434 --> 00:13:09.275

in the bearing of it.

00:13:09.695 --> 00:13:10.776

And so they tell you if

00:13:10.816 --> 00:13:11.616

there's something that

00:13:11.636 --> 00:13:12.677

you're unsure of or

00:13:12.717 --> 00:13:14.218

something that you have doubts about,

00:13:14.718 --> 00:13:16.159

then the way to overcome

00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:19.001

those doubts is by getting

00:13:19.081 --> 00:13:20.362

up and talking about what

00:13:20.382 --> 00:13:21.483

you do believe and what you

00:13:21.543 --> 00:13:23.084

do feel to be true.

00:13:23.704 --> 00:13:25.305

And that the more that you do that,

00:13:25.585 --> 00:13:27.447

then the more you're going to believe.

00:13:27.607 --> 00:13:28.928

And so you're sort of

00:13:28.988 --> 00:13:31.129

gaslighting yourself into

00:13:32.310 --> 00:13:34.331

doubling down on something

00:13:34.351 --> 00:13:36.173

that you're not really sure about.

00:13:36.493 --> 00:13:37.854

And I think that's really harmful.

00:13:37.874 --> 00:13:38.834

It's part of the programming.

00:13:41.296 --> 00:13:41.636

Yeah.

00:13:41.656 --> 00:13:42.497

So, I mean,

00:13:42.577 --> 00:13:44.759

obviously you're learning a lot from,

00:13:45.379 --> 00:13:46.880

this was oh six to oh eight

00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:48.301

when I served my full-time

00:13:48.321 --> 00:13:50.883

mission and that was preach my gospel,

00:13:50.943 --> 00:13:51.063

right?

00:13:52.106 --> 00:13:52.887

And obviously you're

00:13:52.907 --> 00:13:54.668

learning the lessons and

00:13:55.108 --> 00:13:56.028

you're trying to memorize

00:13:56.068 --> 00:13:57.950

these scriptures, but they really,

00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:00.751

they really encouraged, you know,

00:14:01.652 --> 00:14:02.932

sharing a heartfelt

00:14:02.992 --> 00:14:05.034

testimony and emotional

00:14:05.074 --> 00:14:07.715

storytelling and personal

00:14:07.755 --> 00:14:09.816

vulnerability to invoke

00:14:09.836 --> 00:14:13.398

feelings of warmth, guilt, longing.

00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.160

Um, they,

00:14:15.180 --> 00:14:18.201

they teach that any positive feeling is,

00:14:18.501 --> 00:14:21.123

is proof of the truth, right?

00:14:22.032 --> 00:14:24.634

and any negative feeling is

00:14:24.694 --> 00:14:27.815

satan okay so you're

00:14:27.875 --> 00:14:30.157

pigeonholed into a very

00:14:30.297 --> 00:14:31.357

very black and white

00:14:31.377 --> 00:14:33.699

situation and like you said

00:14:33.779 --> 00:14:34.579

you know share what you

00:14:34.619 --> 00:14:36.400

know is true instead of

00:14:36.981 --> 00:14:37.961

actually internal

00:14:38.001 --> 00:14:40.222

investigation and thinking

00:14:40.302 --> 00:14:41.923

maybe you know i'm not

00:14:41.983 --> 00:14:44.545

quite so sure of this um

00:14:44.685 --> 00:14:47.146

that was no one even dared

00:14:47.266 --> 00:14:49.928

say that uh because you feared

00:14:50.986 --> 00:14:52.508

of the consequences you you

00:14:52.548 --> 00:14:53.910

feared you didn't want to

00:14:53.950 --> 00:14:55.852

be a bad missionary i mean

00:14:57.014 --> 00:14:58.275

i'm the youngest of four i

00:14:58.315 --> 00:15:00.218

had luckily i you know

00:15:00.278 --> 00:15:02.080

luckily say how you want i

00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:03.422

had two older brothers that

00:15:03.482 --> 00:15:04.743

served missions before me

00:15:04.903 --> 00:15:06.205

for my oldest brother i

00:15:06.225 --> 00:15:07.687

don't know how he did it um

00:15:08.641 --> 00:15:10.121

He was a trailblazer.

00:15:10.161 --> 00:15:10.842

My dad did.

00:15:10.902 --> 00:15:12.162

But being the first son and

00:15:12.202 --> 00:15:13.302

having to go off and do that,

00:15:13.842 --> 00:15:15.463

I had really good examples.

00:15:16.163 --> 00:15:17.503

And I just knew in my head,

00:15:17.643 --> 00:15:19.364

I absolutely had to do this.

00:15:19.584 --> 00:15:22.865

This is what I had to do no matter what.

00:15:23.405 --> 00:15:24.985

Absolutely no matter what.

00:15:25.105 --> 00:15:26.546

It was never, hey, John, you know,

00:15:26.566 --> 00:15:28.646

if you start to question,

00:15:28.666 --> 00:15:29.386

that's all right.

00:15:29.426 --> 00:15:29.986

Come to me.

00:15:30.026 --> 00:15:30.466

Talk to me.

00:15:30.707 --> 00:15:33.387

There was never any of that.

00:15:33.927 --> 00:15:36.268

And that carries on in the MTC.

00:15:37.011 --> 00:15:39.112

The MTC being the mission

00:15:39.132 --> 00:15:41.112

training center where we all go,

00:15:41.312 --> 00:15:42.292

depending on where you go,

00:15:42.332 --> 00:15:43.793

if you need to learn a foreign language,

00:15:43.813 --> 00:15:45.313

you stay a lot longer to

00:15:45.353 --> 00:15:46.634

help you learn a foreign language.

00:15:46.834 --> 00:15:47.874

I did go stateside.

00:15:47.954 --> 00:15:48.874

I served in Florida.

00:15:49.214 --> 00:15:50.995

Therefore I was in the MTC

00:15:51.095 --> 00:15:52.815

in Provo for three weeks.

00:15:52.835 --> 00:15:53.975

Okay.

00:15:54.796 --> 00:15:58.617

So and then we, we role play, right?

00:15:58.637 --> 00:15:59.697

You have volunteers that

00:15:59.717 --> 00:16:03.518

come in and they video it and

00:16:04.386 --> 00:16:07.389

you basically are trying to

00:16:07.429 --> 00:16:09.111

convince you know these

00:16:09.652 --> 00:16:10.714

these volunteers so

00:16:10.714 --> 00:16:12.061

just pause for a second

00:16:12.141 --> 00:16:13.983

because um i want to get

00:16:14.143 --> 00:16:16.246

before we get into actually

00:16:16.266 --> 00:16:17.787

being at the mtc i want to

00:16:17.827 --> 00:16:19.509

acknowledge the amount of

00:16:19.569 --> 00:16:20.871

social pressure that there

00:16:20.971 --> 00:16:23.514

is for young men to serve a mission it's

00:16:25.283 --> 00:16:27.024

I was gonna say almost, but it is.

00:16:28.084 --> 00:16:29.264

The situation is,

00:16:30.125 --> 00:16:31.785

if you don't serve a mission,

00:16:31.885 --> 00:16:32.625

it's shameful.

00:16:33.285 --> 00:16:34.826

It's considered to be very shameful.

00:16:35.646 --> 00:16:38.887

And people will constantly ask you,

00:16:39.767 --> 00:16:40.968

what are you going on your mission?

00:16:41.008 --> 00:16:42.288

When are you putting your papers in?

00:16:42.448 --> 00:16:44.429

It's like when you arrive at that age,

00:16:45.129 --> 00:16:46.430

eighteen, nineteen,

00:16:47.071 --> 00:16:49.172

the ward expects you to go on a mission,

00:16:49.212 --> 00:16:50.693

the bishop expects you to go on a mission,

00:16:50.733 --> 00:16:52.615

your state president, your parents,

00:16:52.635 --> 00:16:53.716

your family, everybody,

00:16:53.816 --> 00:16:55.137

everybody in your entire

00:16:55.177 --> 00:16:56.257

Mormon ward and social

00:16:56.318 --> 00:16:59.620

circle expects every young

00:16:59.660 --> 00:17:00.721

man to serve a mission.

00:17:01.281 --> 00:17:02.702

And so, again,

00:17:02.742 --> 00:17:03.883

the social pressure is

00:17:03.943 --> 00:17:05.444

probably deafening.

00:17:05.865 --> 00:17:07.426

I cannot even imagine how

00:17:07.486 --> 00:17:09.487

difficult that must be

00:17:09.527 --> 00:17:11.429

because you don't really have a choice.

00:17:11.649 --> 00:17:12.230

It's not...

00:17:13.345 --> 00:17:14.486

If you're going to go on a mission,

00:17:14.526 --> 00:17:15.386

it's when you're going to

00:17:15.426 --> 00:17:16.086

go on a mission.

00:17:16.626 --> 00:17:19.528

I remember my parents having

00:17:19.588 --> 00:17:21.329

my brothers set aside

00:17:21.449 --> 00:17:22.689

portions of their allowance

00:17:22.729 --> 00:17:23.830

to save for their mission.

00:17:24.550 --> 00:17:27.431

So in many Mormon families,

00:17:27.591 --> 00:17:28.652

there's never a discussion

00:17:28.692 --> 00:17:29.652

about whether or not you

00:17:29.692 --> 00:17:31.413

should go or never.

00:17:32.011 --> 00:17:33.171

whether or not you're going to go.

00:17:33.912 --> 00:17:35.232

All of the language is

00:17:35.312 --> 00:17:36.732

pointed towards when you go.

00:17:36.832 --> 00:17:40.113

So it's almost as if, you know,

00:17:40.153 --> 00:17:42.774

if you were to push back and say,

00:17:43.334 --> 00:17:46.255

I'm not sure I want to go, or, you know,

00:17:46.395 --> 00:17:49.236

maybe I should finish school first.

00:17:50.116 --> 00:17:51.636

It's just not a possibility, right?

00:17:51.656 --> 00:17:52.657

Can you imagine, like,

00:17:52.717 --> 00:17:54.597

what would the reaction

00:17:54.637 --> 00:17:56.078

have been from your family

00:17:56.518 --> 00:17:57.298

if you had said,

00:17:57.618 --> 00:17:58.898

I'm not sure I want to go on a mission?

00:17:58.918 --> 00:18:00.739

Devastated.

00:18:02.722 --> 00:18:03.202

they would have been

00:18:03.262 --> 00:18:04.583

absolutely devastated and

00:18:04.603 --> 00:18:06.304

they would have panicked.

00:18:06.405 --> 00:18:07.365

They would have been afraid

00:18:07.425 --> 00:18:09.066

because they're operating

00:18:09.106 --> 00:18:10.187

under the programming that

00:18:10.267 --> 00:18:12.328

this is what you have to do.

00:18:12.809 --> 00:18:17.552

And I never once thought I might not go.

00:18:18.953 --> 00:18:20.354

It was so far out of my

00:18:20.414 --> 00:18:21.995

brain because it had been

00:18:22.035 --> 00:18:25.297

instilled from me from a very young age.

00:18:26.078 --> 00:18:27.038

And we talked about being

00:18:27.098 --> 00:18:28.139

raised in the church last

00:18:28.159 --> 00:18:29.040

time as a little kid.

00:18:30.706 --> 00:18:31.867

as a boy,

00:18:31.927 --> 00:18:33.109

you see the little guy in the

00:18:33.129 --> 00:18:34.931

shirt and tie with the tag,

00:18:34.971 --> 00:18:36.833

and I hope they call me on a mission.

00:18:37.934 --> 00:18:38.855

You're getting brainwashed

00:18:38.875 --> 00:18:40.978

from a very young age to

00:18:42.820 --> 00:18:44.842

know that that is not an option,

00:18:45.423 --> 00:18:46.725

that that is an absolutely

00:18:46.845 --> 00:18:49.348

necessary requirement if you love God.

00:18:50.041 --> 00:18:53.284

if you obey the first commandment, um,

00:18:53.364 --> 00:18:54.725

obedience is the first law.

00:18:55.366 --> 00:18:57.287

Um, you have to go.

00:18:57.367 --> 00:18:59.629

And so I, yeah, that song,

00:18:59.769 --> 00:19:01.170

I hope they call me on a mission.

00:19:01.291 --> 00:19:02.452

We start singing that song

00:19:02.472 --> 00:19:05.534

when we're three years old, you know, um,

00:19:05.574 --> 00:19:08.757

when I have grown a foot or two, um,

00:19:08.817 --> 00:19:09.858

how does the rest of it go?

00:19:09.878 --> 00:19:09.918

Uh,

00:19:11.659 --> 00:19:13.641

I hope by then I can be ready to teach

00:19:13.721 --> 00:19:15.703

and preach and work as missionaries do.

00:19:16.824 --> 00:19:16.964

Um,

00:19:19.807 --> 00:19:21.207

And then there's a second verse.

00:19:22.288 --> 00:19:23.648

I want to share the gospel.

00:19:25.609 --> 00:19:26.809

I can't remember the whole thing.

00:19:28.469 --> 00:19:29.450

You would know it better than me.

00:19:29.610 --> 00:19:33.091

I've blocked out a lot of that stuff.

00:19:33.151 --> 00:19:33.871

Yeah.

00:19:33.891 --> 00:19:34.751

So it's something like,

00:19:34.791 --> 00:19:35.911

I want to share the gospel

00:19:35.951 --> 00:19:37.772

with those who want to know the truth.

00:19:39.446 --> 00:19:40.728

I'll teach and preach and

00:19:40.888 --> 00:19:42.750

serve while I am in my

00:19:42.810 --> 00:19:44.032

youth or something like that.

00:19:44.092 --> 00:19:46.695

So it's all about spending

00:19:46.716 --> 00:19:48.358

your entire childhood

00:19:48.418 --> 00:19:50.601

preparing to go on a mission.

00:19:52.065 --> 00:19:52.425

Really?

00:19:52.966 --> 00:19:54.327

I mean, that's really what it's like.

00:19:55.248 --> 00:19:57.470

Mission prep is a real class

00:19:57.490 --> 00:20:00.752

that they teach for mainly

00:20:00.792 --> 00:20:01.993

for the young men.

00:20:02.133 --> 00:20:02.994

And it's, you know,

00:20:03.134 --> 00:20:04.355

all it's long been an

00:20:04.415 --> 00:20:05.536

expectation for young men

00:20:05.576 --> 00:20:06.337

to go young women.

00:20:06.417 --> 00:20:07.698

It's always been optional.

00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:10.120

And even when they lowered

00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:11.401

the missionary age,

00:20:12.042 --> 00:20:13.223

I think part of the reason

00:20:13.283 --> 00:20:14.323

for that was like, OK,

00:20:14.784 --> 00:20:16.525

now we can get more women

00:20:16.585 --> 00:20:18.007

to go before they get married.

00:20:18.787 --> 00:20:21.269

And I think that, you know,

00:20:21.289 --> 00:20:22.990

the mission is that next

00:20:23.090 --> 00:20:24.471

level of indoctrination.

00:20:24.531 --> 00:20:26.352

I've often said it's a cult within a cult.

00:20:27.053 --> 00:20:28.914

But it's like for a parent,

00:20:29.274 --> 00:20:32.236

if your child serves a mission,

00:20:32.897 --> 00:20:34.277

then you can kind of

00:20:34.358 --> 00:20:36.279

breathe a sigh of relief and like, OK,

00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:37.640

I'm good now.

00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:38.680

I've done my part.

00:20:39.301 --> 00:20:40.502

I prepared them for a mission.

00:20:41.002 --> 00:20:42.543

Now that they're going on a mission,

00:20:42.583 --> 00:20:43.263

they'll come back.

00:20:43.283 --> 00:20:44.384

They'll get married in the temple.

00:20:44.424 --> 00:20:46.025

They'll stay on the Mormon treadmill.

00:20:46.446 --> 00:20:47.446

And I don't really have to

00:20:47.486 --> 00:20:48.227

worry about them.

00:20:49.328 --> 00:20:49.628

you know,

00:20:49.748 --> 00:20:51.449

in the sense of their spirituality.

00:20:51.529 --> 00:20:53.130

So I just wanted to acknowledge that,

00:20:53.251 --> 00:20:53.591

you know,

00:20:54.632 --> 00:20:56.193

I don't know if you have more thoughts on,

00:20:56.333 --> 00:20:58.274

on how difficult the social pressure was,

00:20:58.354 --> 00:20:58.555

but.

00:20:59.075 --> 00:20:59.355

Yes.

00:20:59.395 --> 00:21:00.516

In our original interview,

00:21:00.796 --> 00:21:02.277

you kind of asked about the

00:21:02.357 --> 00:21:04.879

pressure and was that a burden?

00:21:05.540 --> 00:21:07.741

And I, and I, and I kind of,

00:21:07.822 --> 00:21:10.063

I was more focused on just

00:21:10.103 --> 00:21:11.464

how we feel superior to

00:21:11.504 --> 00:21:13.126

women and not really honing

00:21:13.166 --> 00:21:14.907

in on that question as well

00:21:14.947 --> 00:21:15.788

as I should have.

00:21:16.028 --> 00:21:16.228

And,

00:21:16.944 --> 00:21:18.564

the burden and the pressure

00:21:18.624 --> 00:21:19.745

of the mission is real.

00:21:21.285 --> 00:21:22.305

And then checking all those

00:21:22.345 --> 00:21:24.505

boxes along the way, you know,

00:21:24.545 --> 00:21:26.266

making sure you get your Eagle Scout,

00:21:26.386 --> 00:21:28.846

making sure you get into BYU.

00:21:28.986 --> 00:21:30.486

And then at BYU,

00:21:31.107 --> 00:21:32.947

it was required as a course

00:21:33.507 --> 00:21:36.048

that I have a diploma where

00:21:36.148 --> 00:21:37.828

I spent way too much of

00:21:38.528 --> 00:21:39.848

time studying Book of

00:21:39.928 --> 00:21:41.589

Mormon for a class credit

00:21:41.849 --> 00:21:44.029

and missionary prep for class credit.

00:21:45.153 --> 00:21:46.455

where other colleges are

00:21:46.515 --> 00:21:48.076

actually learning relevant things.

00:21:49.217 --> 00:21:51.559

But the pressure was extreme.

00:21:52.180 --> 00:21:55.243

And I think even my brother was just like,

00:21:55.263 --> 00:21:55.443

look,

00:21:56.738 --> 00:21:57.679

kind of acknowledging that

00:21:57.959 --> 00:21:59.379

it's going to suck and it's

00:21:59.399 --> 00:22:00.660

going to be really, really hard,

00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.581

but this is the best thing

00:22:02.601 --> 00:22:04.162

you could ever possibly do

00:22:04.602 --> 00:22:05.362

with your time.

00:22:06.003 --> 00:22:07.604

And if you kick it in the

00:22:07.644 --> 00:22:09.164

teeth and you dominate it

00:22:09.204 --> 00:22:10.685

and you do your absolute best,

00:22:10.745 --> 00:22:13.447

your whole life is going to be blessed.

00:22:13.927 --> 00:22:14.127

I mean,

00:22:14.227 --> 00:22:17.129

even down to really just cringe

00:22:17.169 --> 00:22:17.829

worthy things.

00:22:18.169 --> 00:22:19.450

We have to give ourselves grace.

00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:20.750

Like, Hey, if you go tracking,

00:22:21.151 --> 00:22:22.031

tracking in the rain,

00:22:22.051 --> 00:22:23.032

which is basically going

00:22:23.072 --> 00:22:24.012

door to door and knocking

00:22:24.072 --> 00:22:25.793

on people's houses and

00:22:26.113 --> 00:22:27.213

If you do that in the rain,

00:22:27.233 --> 00:22:28.174

when the weather's bad,

00:22:29.074 --> 00:22:30.334

you'll get a hotter wife.

00:22:31.294 --> 00:22:31.494

Yeah.

00:22:31.774 --> 00:22:32.815

I can't tell you how many

00:22:32.875 --> 00:22:35.976

times I heard a phrase similar to that.

00:22:36.036 --> 00:22:37.616

Like if you say the closing prayer,

00:22:37.656 --> 00:22:37.856

you know,

00:22:37.876 --> 00:22:38.976

the more closing prayers that

00:22:38.996 --> 00:22:40.877

you say yes to the hotter,

00:22:40.897 --> 00:22:41.897

your husband's going to be.

00:22:42.597 --> 00:22:44.458

I'm glad you guys had some of that too.

00:22:44.478 --> 00:22:44.698

Good.

00:22:45.118 --> 00:22:45.378

Yeah.

00:22:45.738 --> 00:22:46.358

Yeah.

00:22:46.378 --> 00:22:46.878

It was a little,

00:22:46.958 --> 00:22:47.859

it was a little bit of that.

00:22:47.919 --> 00:22:49.139

Those cringe worthy kind of

00:22:49.179 --> 00:22:50.619

things that we come up with as youth,

00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:52.280

youth to make ourselves

00:22:52.320 --> 00:22:53.720

feel better about our,

00:22:54.770 --> 00:22:56.771

just all of the crazy

00:22:56.791 --> 00:22:58.452

indoctrination that we went

00:22:58.492 --> 00:22:59.192

through that we didn't

00:22:59.212 --> 00:23:00.132

really realize was

00:23:00.192 --> 00:23:01.873

brainwashing at the time, you know,

00:23:01.973 --> 00:23:02.253

of course,

00:23:02.293 --> 00:23:04.154

otherwise we wouldn't have really.

00:23:04.174 --> 00:23:05.575

That's why they do it when we're young.

00:23:05.855 --> 00:23:07.155

So we can't even realize.

00:23:07.916 --> 00:23:09.376

And they want to get us out

00:23:09.436 --> 00:23:11.337

there so badly because the

00:23:12.017 --> 00:23:13.698

statistics show, at least in the past,

00:23:14.078 --> 00:23:15.159

I'm sure the updated

00:23:15.199 --> 00:23:16.799

statistics are not as strong,

00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:18.820

but if you serve a mission,

00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:20.261

you're more likely to be a

00:23:20.301 --> 00:23:22.522

full tithe payer the rest of your life.

00:23:22.830 --> 00:23:23.050

Yeah.

00:23:23.710 --> 00:23:26.552

Now the statistic is sixty

00:23:26.592 --> 00:23:28.533

percent of young people

00:23:28.593 --> 00:23:29.773

returning from a mission

00:23:30.034 --> 00:23:30.634

leave the church.

00:23:30.654 --> 00:23:30.734

What?

00:23:30.754 --> 00:23:35.036

OK, well, yeah, I mean.

00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:36.600

That makes sense.

00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:37.261

I thought you were going to

00:23:37.281 --> 00:23:38.081

say sixty percent of

00:23:38.121 --> 00:23:39.542

missionaries are leaving early.

00:23:39.562 --> 00:23:40.462

And I was like, yes.

00:23:42.543 --> 00:23:42.823

OK,

00:23:42.843 --> 00:23:44.083

so there are a couple of other things

00:23:44.103 --> 00:23:44.904

that you mentioned that I

00:23:44.924 --> 00:23:46.865

want to touch on that.

00:23:47.145 --> 00:23:47.765

Number one,

00:23:49.586 --> 00:23:51.847

once you put in your so you

00:23:51.927 --> 00:23:53.187

it's a it's a lengthy process.

00:23:53.207 --> 00:23:54.468

You have to put in paperwork.

00:23:55.728 --> 00:23:56.689

You have to get a lot of

00:23:56.749 --> 00:23:57.690

medical stuff done,

00:23:57.750 --> 00:23:59.311

especially if you're going foreign,

00:23:59.551 --> 00:23:59.811

you know,

00:23:59.831 --> 00:24:00.912

you have to get shots and all

00:24:00.932 --> 00:24:01.632

that kind of stuff.

00:24:01.672 --> 00:24:03.553

So once you get your mission

00:24:03.573 --> 00:24:05.154

call and you get your assignment,

00:24:05.174 --> 00:24:06.055

there's a long list of

00:24:06.095 --> 00:24:06.855

stuff that you have to

00:24:06.895 --> 00:24:08.176

bring to the mission with you.

00:24:08.976 --> 00:24:10.037

And by the way, yes,

00:24:10.097 --> 00:24:11.458

missionaries have to pay

00:24:11.478 --> 00:24:12.939

for the privilege of being

00:24:13.179 --> 00:24:14.300

Jesus's sales team.

00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:16.861

So now,

00:24:16.962 --> 00:24:18.363

or at least when my daughter went

00:24:18.443 --> 00:24:20.304

on her mission, it was a set amount.

00:24:20.364 --> 00:24:21.325

It was four hundred and

00:24:21.345 --> 00:24:22.186

fifty dollars a month.

00:24:22.246 --> 00:24:23.467

I think I don't know if

00:24:23.487 --> 00:24:24.708

that's still the case or not.

00:24:24.808 --> 00:24:26.289

But yeah,

00:24:26.309 --> 00:24:27.530

you have to pay for the privilege

00:24:27.570 --> 00:24:28.151

of going.

00:24:28.611 --> 00:24:30.453

And it's been a saving process.

00:24:30.853 --> 00:24:32.554

And then once you get to the mission.

00:24:33.775 --> 00:24:34.876

Your entire life is

00:24:34.936 --> 00:24:37.677

controlled by the mission presidency,

00:24:38.157 --> 00:24:39.538

and you have lots of rules

00:24:39.578 --> 00:24:41.138

about what you can and can't do,

00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:43.339

where you can and can't go,

00:24:43.379 --> 00:24:44.860

very strict times of being

00:24:44.900 --> 00:24:46.041

back in the apartment,

00:24:46.641 --> 00:24:47.842

strict times of what you

00:24:47.862 --> 00:24:49.902

should be doing all times during the day,

00:24:49.962 --> 00:24:50.943

studying, et cetera.

00:24:51.463 --> 00:24:53.704

You're never without sight

00:24:53.824 --> 00:24:54.765

of your companion,

00:24:54.785 --> 00:24:55.745

should always be in sight

00:24:55.785 --> 00:24:57.146

line unless you're in the bathroom.

00:24:58.206 --> 00:24:59.467

So there's no privacy.

00:24:59.987 --> 00:25:01.708

And if you're on a foreign mission,

00:25:03.228 --> 00:25:04.389

probably at least ninety

00:25:04.409 --> 00:25:05.711

percent of the foreign missions,

00:25:06.592 --> 00:25:07.833

your mission president is

00:25:07.873 --> 00:25:09.635

the one who's holding onto your passport.

00:25:10.056 --> 00:25:10.957

So you can't leave.

00:25:11.496 --> 00:25:12.116

Yes, I've learned that.

00:25:12.136 --> 00:25:13.297

Without going through the

00:25:13.337 --> 00:25:14.138

mission president.

00:25:14.738 --> 00:25:15.578

And that's something that I

00:25:15.598 --> 00:25:17.039

would like to see change

00:25:17.580 --> 00:25:19.141

because if someone does

00:25:19.201 --> 00:25:21.162

decide that they want to come home early,

00:25:21.902 --> 00:25:22.843

I don't think anything

00:25:22.943 --> 00:25:24.384

should prevent them from doing that.

00:25:24.424 --> 00:25:25.604

But as it is right now,

00:25:25.644 --> 00:25:26.445

if you want to come home

00:25:26.545 --> 00:25:28.386

early and you're in a foreign mission,

00:25:28.426 --> 00:25:29.647

you have to go talk to your

00:25:29.707 --> 00:25:30.507

mission president.

00:25:30.567 --> 00:25:32.188

You have to say, hey,

00:25:32.729 --> 00:25:33.609

I'm not feeling this.

00:25:33.669 --> 00:25:34.470

I need to go home.

00:25:34.510 --> 00:25:35.170

These are the reasons.

00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:36.211

You have to convince him.

00:25:37.171 --> 00:25:39.655

That it's OK for you to leave, you know,

00:25:39.835 --> 00:25:40.576

and he's always going to

00:25:40.616 --> 00:25:41.637

try to convince you to stay.

00:25:41.697 --> 00:25:42.979

So there's a whole process

00:25:42.999 --> 00:25:44.922

you have to go through if

00:25:44.962 --> 00:25:46.324

you want to come home early.

00:25:46.364 --> 00:25:47.445

Whereas I think it should

00:25:47.485 --> 00:25:49.047

just be pick up the telephone,

00:25:49.067 --> 00:25:50.189

call your parents and be like,

00:25:50.309 --> 00:25:53.614

I'm coming home or as a missionary.

00:25:54.647 --> 00:25:55.868

Go buy your own plane ticket

00:25:56.689 --> 00:25:58.951

and just go wherever you want to go.

00:25:59.051 --> 00:26:00.792

If home doesn't feel safe, you know,

00:26:00.892 --> 00:26:02.314

you are a grown adult

00:26:02.454 --> 00:26:03.515

outside of your home.

00:26:04.115 --> 00:26:05.216

You have, you know,

00:26:05.416 --> 00:26:06.197

all of the legal

00:26:06.397 --> 00:26:09.140

capabilities of an adult person.

00:26:09.320 --> 00:26:10.741

You can make your own choices.

00:26:11.922 --> 00:26:13.103

I've often said I wish that

00:26:13.143 --> 00:26:14.184

we could set up sort of an

00:26:14.284 --> 00:26:15.485

underground railroad for

00:26:15.525 --> 00:26:17.427

missionaries who are having a hard time.

00:26:18.007 --> 00:26:18.307

You know,

00:26:18.367 --> 00:26:19.787

let's put people all over the

00:26:19.827 --> 00:26:21.948

country who are a safe

00:26:21.968 --> 00:26:23.168

place for missionaries to

00:26:23.208 --> 00:26:24.949

go if they're having doubts

00:26:25.089 --> 00:26:27.549

or if they're wanting to leave but can't.

00:26:28.610 --> 00:26:29.650

Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:33.971

I've been on ExMormon Reddit

00:26:34.191 --> 00:26:35.711

and I can tell you there's

00:26:35.731 --> 00:26:37.952

been so many gut wrenching

00:26:37.992 --> 00:26:40.352

posts of not only just kids,

00:26:40.592 --> 00:26:42.453

but people on their missions.

00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:44.521

reaching out to the reddit

00:26:44.541 --> 00:26:45.903

group asking for help

00:26:46.183 --> 00:26:48.025

asking for support saying

00:26:48.065 --> 00:26:49.746

guys this is this is bad

00:26:49.847 --> 00:26:50.908

and they can't go to their

00:26:50.948 --> 00:26:52.189

parents they can't go to

00:26:52.209 --> 00:26:53.210

their families they can't

00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:54.391

go to their mission president

00:26:55.419 --> 00:26:58.841

And the mission can be so traumatic.

00:26:59.081 --> 00:27:04.344

It is boot camp of emotional worthiness.

00:27:04.504 --> 00:27:06.085

If you're not trying your hardest,

00:27:06.165 --> 00:27:07.226

you don't love God.

00:27:09.287 --> 00:27:11.088

If you're not baptizing,

00:27:11.588 --> 00:27:12.609

it's your fault because you

00:27:12.629 --> 00:27:13.569

don't have enough faith.

00:27:13.589 --> 00:27:14.530

You're not doing everything

00:27:14.550 --> 00:27:15.531

you possibly can.

00:27:16.331 --> 00:27:18.032

And so there is a level of

00:27:18.232 --> 00:27:20.333

emotional and shameful

00:27:20.433 --> 00:27:22.675

judgment of yourself just

00:27:22.755 --> 00:27:24.356

from the brainwashing that

00:27:24.376 --> 00:27:24.996

you go through.

00:27:27.173 --> 00:27:29.377

And it's a mental health nightmare.

00:27:29.758 --> 00:27:32.883

And the resources are go see

00:27:33.604 --> 00:27:35.667

the mission president's wife, you know,

00:27:35.847 --> 00:27:37.089

and not to mention the

00:27:37.130 --> 00:27:38.131

mission president's wife

00:27:38.331 --> 00:27:39.353

really kind of covers all

00:27:39.433 --> 00:27:40.275

health concerns.

00:27:41.101 --> 00:27:42.182

What's her qualifications?

00:27:42.742 --> 00:27:43.042

Zero.

00:27:43.062 --> 00:27:43.142

Yeah.

00:27:45.283 --> 00:27:47.424

Unless he happens to be trained that way.

00:27:47.444 --> 00:27:47.924

Of course.

00:27:47.964 --> 00:27:50.465

But most mission presidents' wives aren't.

00:27:50.885 --> 00:27:52.866

And let me just say, too, you know,

00:27:53.686 --> 00:27:55.207

in order to be called as a

00:27:55.267 --> 00:27:56.207

mission president,

00:27:56.807 --> 00:27:58.948

you have to have served

00:27:58.988 --> 00:27:59.969

some other leadership

00:28:00.169 --> 00:28:01.849

positions prior to that.

00:28:02.370 --> 00:28:03.650

And you also have to be in a

00:28:03.710 --> 00:28:05.111

position in your life where

00:28:05.151 --> 00:28:08.072

you can uproot your entire family, right?

00:28:08.292 --> 00:28:10.053

and go live for three years

00:28:10.313 --> 00:28:12.374

in wherever you're serving

00:28:12.514 --> 00:28:13.995

as a mission president so

00:28:14.015 --> 00:28:14.895

you have to be pretty

00:28:14.935 --> 00:28:17.096

wealthy you know to be able

00:28:17.136 --> 00:28:18.637

to just pick up and leave

00:28:18.677 --> 00:28:19.798

and if you're not able to

00:28:19.858 --> 00:28:21.358

sell the house you know

00:28:21.398 --> 00:28:22.459

where you live i i

00:28:22.499 --> 00:28:23.479

understand the church has

00:28:23.499 --> 00:28:24.620

some kind of a program for

00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.521

that some kind of a thing

00:28:26.621 --> 00:28:27.721

and then mission presidents

00:28:27.761 --> 00:28:29.202

get some kind of a stipend

00:28:29.702 --> 00:28:30.483

for where they're living

00:28:30.523 --> 00:28:33.244

but just to say that if you

00:28:33.364 --> 00:28:34.865

are called as a mission president

00:28:35.365 --> 00:28:36.767

most likely your wife has

00:28:36.807 --> 00:28:38.888

been a stay-at-home mom or

00:28:38.989 --> 00:28:40.570

she has had you know

00:28:40.650 --> 00:28:42.031

experience obviously being

00:28:42.071 --> 00:28:44.474

a mother but beyond that

00:28:45.014 --> 00:28:46.175

she doesn't really have any

00:28:46.215 --> 00:28:48.517

qualifications for um

00:28:48.838 --> 00:28:49.939

helping young people get

00:28:49.999 --> 00:28:51.500

mental health help if they

00:28:51.540 --> 00:28:54.242

need it or medical training

00:28:54.282 --> 00:28:57.385

of any kind so you know it's just

00:28:58.746 --> 00:29:00.307

The mission presidents do

00:29:00.367 --> 00:29:01.688

receive some training,

00:29:02.168 --> 00:29:03.929

but I believe it's mostly

00:29:04.229 --> 00:29:05.390

training on how to make

00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:06.630

sure that your missionaries

00:29:07.311 --> 00:29:08.511

are working hard,

00:29:08.551 --> 00:29:09.452

converting people and

00:29:09.492 --> 00:29:10.372

staying on the mission and

00:29:10.392 --> 00:29:11.353

not going home early.

00:29:12.233 --> 00:29:14.174

Not mental health training

00:29:14.334 --> 00:29:16.055

or counseling or any of that.

00:29:16.596 --> 00:29:17.636

Zero of that.

00:29:17.936 --> 00:29:21.558

And the missionary needs

00:29:21.578 --> 00:29:22.939

that mental health support,

00:29:24.159 --> 00:29:25.740

healthy coping mechanisms,

00:29:26.020 --> 00:29:27.121

positive self-talk.

00:29:28.236 --> 00:29:30.517

All of these things could really,

00:29:30.557 --> 00:29:32.437

really help these missionaries out there.

00:29:34.158 --> 00:29:35.298

But also, I mean,

00:29:35.819 --> 00:29:37.519

if you had therapists out in the mission,

00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.220

you know they would be

00:29:39.260 --> 00:29:40.580

biased and they would try

00:29:40.620 --> 00:29:41.941

to keep the missionary there.

00:29:41.981 --> 00:29:43.681

If you went to an actual therapist,

00:29:43.701 --> 00:29:44.081

they'd be like,

00:29:44.441 --> 00:29:45.722

this is ruining you and

00:29:45.882 --> 00:29:47.022

emotionally manipulating

00:29:47.062 --> 00:29:48.183

you and you need to get out

00:29:48.243 --> 00:29:49.163

of here and go home.

00:29:49.623 --> 00:29:50.684

Exactly.

00:29:51.645 --> 00:29:52.726

I think it would be amazing

00:29:52.766 --> 00:29:54.147

if they had counselors in

00:29:54.267 --> 00:29:56.549

every mission across the

00:29:56.589 --> 00:29:58.610

world to have somebody that

00:29:58.650 --> 00:29:59.911

missionaries can go talk to.

00:30:00.772 --> 00:30:02.934

But it's kind of, as you say,

00:30:03.474 --> 00:30:04.495

if the church was the one

00:30:04.535 --> 00:30:05.856

appointing these counselors

00:30:05.916 --> 00:30:07.197

and paying for their time,

00:30:07.437 --> 00:30:09.079

then they're going to

00:30:09.139 --> 00:30:10.279

expect the counselors to

00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.021

basically keep kids on the mission.

00:30:12.681 --> 00:30:15.003

And to also ignore all of

00:30:15.043 --> 00:30:16.825

the emotional manipulation,

00:30:16.865 --> 00:30:17.766

indoctrination,

00:30:17.866 --> 00:30:19.047

cult-like mentality that

00:30:19.067 --> 00:30:20.088

they're experiencing.

00:30:20.988 --> 00:30:22.990

And to further explain away those things.

00:30:23.150 --> 00:30:24.572

I know in my experience,

00:30:25.152 --> 00:30:26.293

I had three different

00:30:26.333 --> 00:30:27.594

counselors that were

00:30:27.934 --> 00:30:30.096

affiliated with LDS social services.

00:30:30.797 --> 00:30:33.459

And the counseling sessions

00:30:33.479 --> 00:30:34.920

did absolutely no good for

00:30:34.940 --> 00:30:36.141

me whatsoever because the

00:30:36.181 --> 00:30:37.583

message I kept getting was

00:30:38.123 --> 00:30:38.864

pray harder and

00:30:39.264 --> 00:30:40.184

have more faith.

00:30:41.284 --> 00:30:42.105

Why did you marry a

00:30:42.165 --> 00:30:43.465

non-member in the first place?

00:30:43.525 --> 00:30:45.285

You know, that, that was part of my,

00:30:45.485 --> 00:30:45.725

you know,

00:30:45.745 --> 00:30:46.885

what I was coming to them for

00:30:46.905 --> 00:30:47.966

was how do I deal with this?

00:30:49.186 --> 00:30:50.926

So it wasn't really therapy.

00:30:51.166 --> 00:30:52.006

It was just,

00:30:52.286 --> 00:30:54.847

let's talk about your faith and, you know,

00:30:54.927 --> 00:30:57.427

have you prayed about this?

00:30:58.387 --> 00:30:59.728

You know, sorry.

00:30:59.808 --> 00:31:00.008

Yeah.

00:31:00.028 --> 00:31:05.049

That's gaslighting and it's

00:31:05.129 --> 00:31:06.689

confirmation bias and it's,

00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:08.701

I mean,

00:31:08.781 --> 00:31:11.303

it's like being a professor at BYU.

00:31:11.463 --> 00:31:14.405

Like they interview your wife, you know,

00:31:14.525 --> 00:31:15.786

they make sure you're not

00:31:15.866 --> 00:31:17.347

going to ruffle feathers.

00:31:17.387 --> 00:31:19.908

So you are correct in that

00:31:19.968 --> 00:31:21.209

these mission presidents are,

00:31:22.310 --> 00:31:24.591

they're excellent businessmen, honestly.

00:31:25.232 --> 00:31:26.873

They are great businessmen

00:31:26.913 --> 00:31:28.314

who are financially sound

00:31:28.474 --> 00:31:29.815

and have worked their way

00:31:29.875 --> 00:31:31.756

up the corporate ladder,

00:31:32.757 --> 00:31:34.038

the LDS corporate ladder.

00:31:34.838 --> 00:31:35.639

And, um,

00:31:37.137 --> 00:31:40.319

they are, they're not counselors.

00:31:40.639 --> 00:31:43.601

And they're just doing what

00:31:43.641 --> 00:31:44.762

they've been programmed to do,

00:31:45.002 --> 00:31:45.742

unfortunately.

00:31:46.363 --> 00:31:48.204

And they're responsible for, I mean,

00:31:48.224 --> 00:31:48.724

in our mission,

00:31:48.764 --> 00:31:50.405

we had a hundred and fifty,

00:31:51.206 --> 00:31:52.447

hundred and fifty missionaries.

00:31:52.627 --> 00:31:55.228

So responsible for him and his wife,

00:31:56.769 --> 00:31:58.530

responsible for all those

00:31:58.630 --> 00:32:00.572

and all the issues that came.

00:32:00.612 --> 00:32:02.533

And I am sure now, and I'm so glad,

00:32:02.593 --> 00:32:04.214

I'm sure there's a lot more issues now

00:32:05.269 --> 00:32:07.650

Back then it was really just like, oh,

00:32:09.011 --> 00:32:10.292

he dislocated his knee

00:32:10.372 --> 00:32:12.173

playing flag football on

00:32:12.213 --> 00:32:13.614

Thanksgiving or he's sick.

00:32:14.834 --> 00:32:17.036

We didn't have that many

00:32:17.096 --> 00:32:18.657

missionaries come forward and say,

00:32:18.677 --> 00:32:20.518

I'm struggling with my belief.

00:32:21.098 --> 00:32:23.759

I don't think we had anyone go home early.

00:32:26.381 --> 00:32:29.082

So it's just,

00:32:29.923 --> 00:32:31.924

it's an interesting dynamic that is,

00:32:32.689 --> 00:32:37.270

very unqualified considering

00:32:37.290 --> 00:32:38.470

the amount of emotional

00:32:38.510 --> 00:32:41.071

distress and the daunting

00:32:41.891 --> 00:32:45.652

emotional toll it takes and the constant,

00:32:46.152 --> 00:32:46.912

am I worthy?

00:32:47.152 --> 00:32:47.852

Am I worthy?

00:32:47.992 --> 00:32:49.453

Am I doing a good enough job?

00:32:49.513 --> 00:32:50.693

Oh my gosh, you know,

00:32:50.873 --> 00:32:52.593

this is setting me up, you know,

00:32:53.313 --> 00:32:54.334

is God approving?

00:32:54.414 --> 00:32:56.154

Is my mission president approving?

00:32:57.294 --> 00:33:00.275

And they control everything down to,

00:33:01.437 --> 00:33:02.917

know where you live where

00:33:02.937 --> 00:33:05.138

you sleep um what what

00:33:05.198 --> 00:33:06.678

music you can listen to

00:33:08.139 --> 00:33:09.419

when you need to be home

00:33:10.940 --> 00:33:12.160

you always have to be with

00:33:12.260 --> 00:33:13.540

a companion like you said

00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:16.121

they control everything and

00:33:16.221 --> 00:33:17.361

i know they can talk now to

00:33:17.381 --> 00:33:18.582

their families a lot more

00:33:18.702 --> 00:33:20.462

but when i was on my

00:33:20.502 --> 00:33:22.983

mission we could email once a week

00:33:24.164 --> 00:33:26.065

which was kind of awesome.

00:33:26.165 --> 00:33:27.566

My brothers didn't have that.

00:33:28.306 --> 00:33:29.967

And we could speak to our

00:33:30.007 --> 00:33:31.748

family on the phone on

00:33:31.808 --> 00:33:33.309

Mother's Day and Christmas.

00:33:33.649 --> 00:33:38.252

And so the mission slang is feeling trunky,

00:33:38.432 --> 00:33:39.653

like being homesick.

00:33:40.373 --> 00:33:43.695

So they're trying to really isolate you.

00:33:45.496 --> 00:33:46.917

They're really isolating you.

00:33:46.957 --> 00:33:48.438

And that's a tactic so that

00:33:48.478 --> 00:33:50.259

you can only rely on the church and

00:33:51.115 --> 00:33:54.558

God, your companion, your district leader,

00:33:54.638 --> 00:33:56.299

your zone leader, the assistants,

00:33:57.340 --> 00:33:58.681

so that you have no other

00:33:58.801 --> 00:34:01.443

outlet to go to.

00:34:02.104 --> 00:34:03.265

And that's- Yeah,

00:34:03.325 --> 00:34:05.547

and we'll probably come back to this too,

00:34:05.587 --> 00:34:06.448

but there was,

00:34:07.088 --> 00:34:09.550

I remember a couple of

00:34:09.590 --> 00:34:10.891

changes that they made in

00:34:10.911 --> 00:34:12.713

the mission that I live in

00:34:13.433 --> 00:34:15.635

where they didn't want

00:34:15.755 --> 00:34:16.936

missionaries staying in the

00:34:16.976 --> 00:34:18.517

members' homes for very long.

00:34:19.698 --> 00:34:24.520

because they didn't want

00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:27.020

socializing with members to

00:34:27.060 --> 00:34:27.941

take away from them

00:34:28.001 --> 00:34:29.961

teaching other people.

00:34:30.442 --> 00:34:31.962

And so they made this rule

00:34:32.042 --> 00:34:33.042

that if you had the

00:34:33.062 --> 00:34:34.383

missionaries over for dinner,

00:34:34.463 --> 00:34:36.063

they could only stay for one hour,

00:34:36.323 --> 00:34:36.924

and that was it.

00:34:37.364 --> 00:34:38.764

So you had to make sure that

00:34:38.804 --> 00:34:40.065

dinner was ready to go when

00:34:40.085 --> 00:34:40.725

they got there.

00:34:41.585 --> 00:34:42.787

eat quickly have a quick

00:34:42.827 --> 00:34:44.670

message and then you know

00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:45.892

get them back on their way

00:34:46.513 --> 00:34:47.735

and so it's like that

00:34:47.855 --> 00:34:50.199

isolation is is really real

00:34:50.980 --> 00:34:52.903

and they're they're really encouraging

00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:54.561

Or at least they did.

00:34:54.601 --> 00:34:55.822

They encouraged the

00:34:56.763 --> 00:34:58.284

missionaries in our mission

00:34:58.844 --> 00:35:01.446

not to talk about where they were from.

00:35:01.486 --> 00:35:02.868

They said, members,

00:35:02.908 --> 00:35:04.509

don't ask your missionaries

00:35:04.529 --> 00:35:05.390

when they come for dinner.

00:35:05.430 --> 00:35:07.892

Don't ask them where they

00:35:07.912 --> 00:35:09.113

came from or where they're from.

00:35:09.173 --> 00:35:10.454

Just ask them how long

00:35:10.474 --> 00:35:11.075

they've been on their

00:35:11.115 --> 00:35:12.276

mission and what's been

00:35:12.296 --> 00:35:15.478

their best experience so far.

00:35:15.558 --> 00:35:15.799

Yeah,

00:35:16.059 --> 00:35:18.681

because they don't want us thinking

00:35:18.701 --> 00:35:19.682

about home.

00:35:19.702 --> 00:35:21.123

They don't want us thinking about

00:35:21.948 --> 00:35:23.970

Man, I wish I was back with my family.

00:35:24.070 --> 00:35:25.631

They just want you devoted

00:35:26.011 --> 00:35:28.913

and absolutely giving every

00:35:29.153 --> 00:35:31.175

ounce of your being to this

00:35:31.235 --> 00:35:32.436

church for further

00:35:32.536 --> 00:35:34.317

indoctrination so that when

00:35:34.357 --> 00:35:35.979

you leave that mission,

00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:37.219

not only can you bring more

00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:39.942

people into the fold as full tithe payers,

00:35:40.602 --> 00:35:41.983

but that you will stay.

00:35:42.804 --> 00:35:43.844

It's really an

00:35:43.905 --> 00:35:45.506

indoctrination bootcamp for

00:35:45.526 --> 00:35:46.486

the rest of your life to

00:35:46.526 --> 00:35:47.727

keep you an active member

00:35:47.747 --> 00:35:48.788

of the rest of your life.

00:35:48.888 --> 00:35:49.549

And so they...

00:35:51.628 --> 00:35:53.650

they go ham on you with that.

00:35:54.410 --> 00:35:55.871

And that's the whole point.

00:35:55.992 --> 00:35:58.513

And that's cult-like behavior.

00:35:59.134 --> 00:36:00.555

That's exactly what cults do.

00:36:01.396 --> 00:36:05.739

And they isolate you from your family.

00:36:06.980 --> 00:36:08.922

And I'm sure they would say, you know, hey,

00:36:08.962 --> 00:36:11.924

I talked to my mom and she said, you know,

00:36:11.964 --> 00:36:13.285

I should probably come home.

00:36:13.485 --> 00:36:14.586

What do you think they would say?

00:36:14.786 --> 00:36:15.807

They would say, your mom's wrong.

00:36:16.966 --> 00:36:18.547

And they would probably ask

00:36:18.567 --> 00:36:19.488

you not to talk to her.

00:36:19.508 --> 00:36:21.769

I mean, that's just typical cult behavior.

00:36:22.149 --> 00:36:22.930

Yeah, they would say,

00:36:23.090 --> 00:36:24.270

I know you miss your mom,

00:36:24.891 --> 00:36:26.211

but she's not here.

00:36:26.472 --> 00:36:28.173

She's not the one serving a mission.

00:36:28.773 --> 00:36:30.054

She may want you to come home,

00:36:30.094 --> 00:36:31.815

but you know the right choice is to stay.

00:36:32.055 --> 00:36:32.795

I can imagine that's

00:36:32.835 --> 00:36:33.616

probably what they would say.

00:36:34.156 --> 00:36:35.937

Yeah, this is a higher calling.

00:36:35.977 --> 00:36:37.177

This is the most important

00:36:37.218 --> 00:36:39.198

work you could ever possibly dream of.

00:36:40.819 --> 00:36:42.880

And it's no secret why they

00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:44.241

send people at that age.

00:36:44.561 --> 00:36:47.182

Because we're, I mean, baptism,

00:36:47.362 --> 00:36:48.843

the age of awareness is eight,

00:36:49.503 --> 00:36:50.444

which is ridiculous.

00:36:50.804 --> 00:36:53.225

And sending off young men is

00:36:53.325 --> 00:36:55.826

really just grabbing them

00:36:56.227 --> 00:36:57.367

for their entire lives so

00:36:57.407 --> 00:36:58.908

that you have a bigger hook for

00:36:59.452 --> 00:37:01.153

to keep them as full-time

00:37:01.193 --> 00:37:02.274

pairs the rest of their

00:37:02.314 --> 00:37:04.276

lives and to expand and

00:37:05.397 --> 00:37:06.338

marry in the temple and

00:37:06.358 --> 00:37:07.498

have a family with more

00:37:07.518 --> 00:37:09.100

kids that stay in the church.

00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:09.840

Yeah.

00:37:10.421 --> 00:37:12.422

So, by the way,

00:37:12.683 --> 00:37:15.345

did you know that the three

00:37:15.385 --> 00:37:16.406

men who are leading the

00:37:16.426 --> 00:37:17.646

church right now never

00:37:17.707 --> 00:37:20.549

served a full-time mission?

00:37:20.669 --> 00:37:21.550

I did not know that.

00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:23.131

Isn't that fascinating?

00:37:24.925 --> 00:37:26.386

They are so adamant that

00:37:26.506 --> 00:37:27.807

every single young man goes

00:37:27.827 --> 00:37:31.089

serve a mission and yet not Rusty,

00:37:31.609 --> 00:37:36.132

not Dallin Hoax, and not Henry B. Crying.

00:37:37.713 --> 00:37:40.195

None of those three men have

00:37:40.435 --> 00:37:41.696

served a full-time mission.

00:37:43.216 --> 00:37:45.278

It's an expectation that

00:37:45.838 --> 00:37:46.699

every single one of their

00:37:46.739 --> 00:37:47.879

members do something that

00:37:47.899 --> 00:37:49.460

they themselves never once did.

00:37:50.221 --> 00:37:50.421

Yeah,

00:37:50.461 --> 00:37:53.022

it's that hypocrisy that we talked

00:37:53.043 --> 00:37:53.603

about and

00:37:54.432 --> 00:37:54.872

Yeah.

00:37:54.892 --> 00:37:55.993

They didn't have to go through it.

00:37:56.113 --> 00:37:59.095

So they shouldn't be able to speak on it.

00:37:59.155 --> 00:37:59.716

But yeah,

00:37:59.756 --> 00:38:01.017

which is I wonder how many

00:38:01.057 --> 00:38:01.877

Mormons know that.

00:38:02.738 --> 00:38:03.679

Probably not a lot.

00:38:03.999 --> 00:38:04.479

Definitely.

00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:06.841

I mean, I made the assumption, you know,

00:38:06.961 --> 00:38:08.042

as a true believing Mormon

00:38:08.082 --> 00:38:09.683

that all all of the fifteen

00:38:10.083 --> 00:38:11.304

had served a full time mission,

00:38:12.305 --> 00:38:13.866

at least at least one.

00:38:14.026 --> 00:38:14.286

Right.

00:38:14.386 --> 00:38:16.288

Or, you know, something else.

00:38:16.328 --> 00:38:17.389

But anyway, it's.

00:38:18.089 --> 00:38:18.289

Yeah,

00:38:18.329 --> 00:38:20.770

it's just that it's the hypocrisy and

00:38:20.790 --> 00:38:21.730

the fact that they're so

00:38:21.810 --> 00:38:23.071

out of touch with the

00:38:23.151 --> 00:38:24.351

everyday lives of their members.

00:38:24.391 --> 00:38:25.792

They have no idea what their

00:38:25.832 --> 00:38:27.532

members go through on a daily basis.

00:38:27.992 --> 00:38:29.433

And so all of these policies

00:38:29.453 --> 00:38:30.133

that are written by

00:38:30.173 --> 00:38:32.354

attorneys that govern the church,

00:38:32.694 --> 00:38:33.614

they don't have anything to

00:38:33.654 --> 00:38:34.475

do with humanity.

00:38:34.535 --> 00:38:35.575

And that's why I say there's

00:38:35.595 --> 00:38:36.475

a lack of empathy,

00:38:36.856 --> 00:38:37.956

because there's no real

00:38:38.056 --> 00:38:39.416

understanding of how the

00:38:39.456 --> 00:38:41.177

policies affect people.

00:38:41.237 --> 00:38:43.277

the people that are in their church.

00:38:43.377 --> 00:38:44.918

They really don't think that

00:38:44.978 --> 00:38:45.918

through and they really

00:38:45.958 --> 00:38:47.198

don't have any idea how

00:38:47.258 --> 00:38:48.978

hurtful some of those policies are.

00:38:49.293 --> 00:38:50.299

it's a great point.

00:38:50.399 --> 00:38:52.059

And it goes back to they

00:38:52.099 --> 00:38:54.220

have no need to look at a

00:38:54.260 --> 00:38:55.680

perspective from somebody else.

00:38:55.720 --> 00:38:57.400

They're up here in the

00:38:57.420 --> 00:38:59.901

patriarchy and they're the

00:38:59.921 --> 00:39:01.241

man and they have the power

00:39:01.281 --> 00:39:02.361

of the priesthood and

00:39:03.332 --> 00:39:05.354

they have no concept of what

00:39:05.414 --> 00:39:07.015

life is like for somebody else.

00:39:07.536 --> 00:39:07.776

Yeah.

00:39:07.916 --> 00:39:08.577

And they don't have

00:39:08.617 --> 00:39:09.858

everything they want to need.

00:39:10.398 --> 00:39:10.598

Yeah.

00:39:10.618 --> 00:39:11.619

They don't take the time to

00:39:11.659 --> 00:39:13.561

put themselves into women's shoes,

00:39:13.701 --> 00:39:15.183

other struggling members shoes.

00:39:15.243 --> 00:39:18.445

It's just.

00:39:18.505 --> 00:39:18.746

Yeah.

00:39:18.806 --> 00:39:21.808

So I want to go back to the MTC.

00:39:22.629 --> 00:39:24.431

So when you, you get your call,

00:39:24.471 --> 00:39:25.852

you do all your preparation,

00:39:26.012 --> 00:39:27.113

you go into the missionary

00:39:27.153 --> 00:39:29.315

training center and you went to Provo,

00:39:29.375 --> 00:39:29.695

right?

00:39:30.096 --> 00:39:30.196

Yeah.

00:39:31.037 --> 00:39:32.859

And so you get there.

00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:35.921

It's a traumatic experience to go.

00:39:36.122 --> 00:39:37.283

Did your parents drop you

00:39:37.403 --> 00:39:40.385

off or did you fly out of your hometown?

00:39:41.366 --> 00:39:42.867

No, I was really fortunate.

00:39:42.947 --> 00:39:44.228

It was a big deal.

00:39:44.929 --> 00:39:46.931

My family was there.

00:39:47.471 --> 00:39:48.812

We always made a trip out of it.

00:39:48.913 --> 00:39:50.334

I remember dropping off my

00:39:50.394 --> 00:39:51.255

two older brothers.

00:39:52.408 --> 00:39:54.249

and that was the same for me

00:39:54.950 --> 00:39:56.310

but that is a day that

00:39:56.510 --> 00:39:58.472

every person who served a

00:39:58.512 --> 00:39:59.892

mission will never forget

00:40:00.013 --> 00:40:01.453

because yeah you go into

00:40:01.473 --> 00:40:03.414

the mtc with your family

00:40:03.495 --> 00:40:04.155

and it's kind of like

00:40:04.175 --> 00:40:04.895

you're sitting in a

00:40:05.175 --> 00:40:06.516

sacrament meeting type

00:40:06.636 --> 00:40:07.937

thing like for it's like

00:40:07.957 --> 00:40:09.438

the big congregation type

00:40:09.458 --> 00:40:10.138

thing and there's some

00:40:10.178 --> 00:40:12.460

talks and then at the end

00:40:12.580 --> 00:40:13.620

and you know it's coming

00:40:13.660 --> 00:40:14.081

and you're getting

00:40:14.121 --> 00:40:15.061

emotional because you are

00:40:15.121 --> 00:40:16.122

not going to see your

00:40:16.162 --> 00:40:19.043

family for two years yeah

00:40:19.064 --> 00:40:19.684

you're not going to see

00:40:19.704 --> 00:40:21.065

your friends for two years

00:40:22.118 --> 00:40:22.959

Um,

00:40:22.979 --> 00:40:25.420

you are about your whole life is about

00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:26.701

to completely change.

00:40:26.961 --> 00:40:27.962

A lot of people have never

00:40:27.982 --> 00:40:29.423

been out on their own before,

00:40:29.603 --> 00:40:30.804

and this is their first time.

00:40:30.964 --> 00:40:31.624

And by the way,

00:40:31.684 --> 00:40:32.545

we're putting you through this,

00:40:32.805 --> 00:40:33.586

this bootcamp.

00:40:34.486 --> 00:40:36.708

Um, I had served, I served, I,

00:40:37.008 --> 00:40:39.690

I went to BYU for a year and then, so I,

00:40:39.990 --> 00:40:40.170

I had,

00:40:40.430 --> 00:40:41.571

I was a little bit better off

00:40:41.991 --> 00:40:43.072

because I had been on my own,

00:40:43.132 --> 00:40:45.153

but at the end of that congregation,

00:40:45.253 --> 00:40:47.995

after that closing him and prayer.

00:40:49.784 --> 00:40:51.465

They say, okay, after this,

00:40:51.985 --> 00:40:53.285

all the missionaries go

00:40:53.325 --> 00:40:54.746

through this door and

00:40:55.066 --> 00:40:56.886

everyone else goes through this door.

00:40:57.707 --> 00:41:00.087

And as soon as that closing prayer stop,

00:41:00.627 --> 00:41:05.849

I mean, you're like, it's emotional.

00:41:06.109 --> 00:41:09.710

And you're saying your goodbyes,

00:41:09.790 --> 00:41:13.391

but you've been preparing

00:41:13.431 --> 00:41:15.692

for this forever since you were three,

00:41:15.712 --> 00:41:16.192

right?

00:41:16.512 --> 00:41:18.054

Every worthiness interview,

00:41:18.194 --> 00:41:19.495

every time you're thinking

00:41:19.515 --> 00:41:21.557

about maybe doing something wrong,

00:41:21.577 --> 00:41:22.978

you're like, no, if I do that,

00:41:23.078 --> 00:41:24.759

I might not be able to serve a mission.

00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:26.221

And we didn't even get into that.

00:41:26.261 --> 00:41:28.283

But that's a huge pressure and burden.

00:41:29.704 --> 00:41:30.805

I think kept me from.

00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:33.481

drinking or whatever.

00:41:33.521 --> 00:41:35.181

It wasn't necessarily, you know,

00:41:35.461 --> 00:41:37.502

integrity or I don't want

00:41:37.522 --> 00:41:40.163

to do that because I think it's wrong.

00:41:41.444 --> 00:41:41.944

It was,

00:41:42.204 --> 00:41:45.045

I am afraid if I do this sin that I

00:41:45.105 --> 00:41:46.126

won't get on a mission,

00:41:46.686 --> 00:41:47.867

I won't be worthy to go on

00:41:47.887 --> 00:41:50.928

a mission and I will be a failure.

00:41:51.828 --> 00:41:53.989

Yeah.

00:41:54.029 --> 00:41:55.950

So you say,

00:41:56.050 --> 00:41:57.931

you say your goodbyes and it's like,

00:41:58.011 --> 00:41:58.351

all right,

00:41:59.326 --> 00:42:00.307

And my brother was just,

00:42:00.867 --> 00:42:02.028

I had great advice from my

00:42:02.068 --> 00:42:03.589

brothers who were just like, just,

00:42:04.409 --> 00:42:07.251

just live it, sink into it,

00:42:07.351 --> 00:42:09.072

just give it your all and

00:42:09.132 --> 00:42:10.573

it'll be over before you know it,

00:42:10.613 --> 00:42:10.953

you know?

00:42:11.574 --> 00:42:13.695

And, um, you're doing a really,

00:42:13.755 --> 00:42:14.696

really good thing.

00:42:15.376 --> 00:42:19.098

And, um, so I just kept focusing on that.

00:42:19.179 --> 00:42:19.819

Like I,

00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:22.100

I'm going to kick this in the teeth.

00:42:22.140 --> 00:42:23.681

I'm going to give it my absolute all.

00:42:24.442 --> 00:42:26.263

And then you're, um,

00:42:26.913 --> 00:42:28.853

And then you're, you get a companion,

00:42:28.893 --> 00:42:31.014

you get in a district and

00:42:31.294 --> 00:42:33.574

you start right away.

00:42:34.034 --> 00:42:34.315

Yeah.

00:42:34.335 --> 00:42:35.615

So just so that, you know,

00:42:35.835 --> 00:42:37.115

they don't do that anymore

00:42:37.175 --> 00:42:38.575

with the congregational meeting.

00:42:39.836 --> 00:42:42.836

When I dropped my daughter off at the MTC,

00:42:43.416 --> 00:42:44.757

they made it very clear

00:42:44.917 --> 00:42:46.197

that it would be a,

00:42:46.697 --> 00:42:48.717

it's like a school drop offline now.

00:42:49.077 --> 00:42:50.118

So I don't know if it's more

00:42:50.138 --> 00:42:51.618

traumatic or less traumatic,

00:42:52.018 --> 00:42:54.819

but you drive your car up to that curb.

00:42:55.779 --> 00:42:56.479

They get out.

00:42:57.023 --> 00:42:58.763

The suitcases get put on the

00:42:58.784 --> 00:43:00.884

curb and it's like you get

00:43:00.904 --> 00:43:02.385

a quick hug and then they

00:43:02.565 --> 00:43:03.985

whisk that missionary way

00:43:04.145 --> 00:43:05.445

as quickly as possible.

00:43:05.865 --> 00:43:07.246

And they want you to move along.

00:43:07.346 --> 00:43:09.647

It's like dropping off at the airport.

00:43:09.987 --> 00:43:11.987

They're like, no stopping, no standing.

00:43:12.027 --> 00:43:13.168

You cannot stay here.

00:43:13.728 --> 00:43:15.288

No long tearful goodbyes.

00:43:15.308 --> 00:43:16.428

You just drop them off.

00:43:16.468 --> 00:43:17.689

You get back in the car and

00:43:17.709 --> 00:43:18.789

you move your vehicle so

00:43:18.829 --> 00:43:19.889

that the next person can

00:43:19.929 --> 00:43:21.050

pull up and drop their kid off.

00:43:22.050 --> 00:43:22.572

so

00:43:23.204 --> 00:43:26.185

So I guess rewind because, you know,

00:43:26.205 --> 00:43:27.925

we're at the MTC already, but I,

00:43:27.945 --> 00:43:29.665

but I do want to hear about

00:43:30.426 --> 00:43:32.826

your interview process for

00:43:33.306 --> 00:43:34.187

going on the mission

00:43:34.227 --> 00:43:35.807

because it's a lot more

00:43:35.867 --> 00:43:37.147

robust than just a Temple

00:43:37.187 --> 00:43:38.848

Recommend interview, right?

00:43:38.928 --> 00:43:39.928

Yes, absolutely.

00:43:41.048 --> 00:43:42.308

So as I mentioned before,

00:43:42.368 --> 00:43:43.669

I didn't drink or anything,

00:43:43.729 --> 00:43:48.510

fooled around with a girl, junior high,

00:43:48.550 --> 00:43:49.630

high school, and

00:43:50.858 --> 00:43:54.080

I had gone and gotten those sins expunged.

00:43:54.140 --> 00:43:54.440

You know,

00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:55.600

like I went through all of the

00:43:55.640 --> 00:43:57.561

things with my local bishop

00:43:57.681 --> 00:43:58.622

and didn't pass the

00:43:58.642 --> 00:44:00.563

sacrament and did all of that stuff.

00:44:02.603 --> 00:44:05.205

But then so that should be done away with.

00:44:05.625 --> 00:44:05.825

Right.

00:44:06.585 --> 00:44:09.386

But then I'm at BYU and you

00:44:09.426 --> 00:44:10.587

go through the interview

00:44:10.627 --> 00:44:11.727

process for your mission.

00:44:11.768 --> 00:44:12.488

And it's a big one.

00:44:12.508 --> 00:44:13.208

It's a long one.

00:44:13.748 --> 00:44:14.989

He asked a lot of questions

00:44:15.409 --> 00:44:17.090

and he asked about those sins.

00:44:18.453 --> 00:44:19.277

whether or not you've

00:44:19.338 --> 00:44:21.267

already taken care of them with a bishop.

00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:24.041

Let me be clear.

00:44:25.222 --> 00:44:27.083

You confessed something to your bishop.

00:44:27.183 --> 00:44:29.765

You went through the repentance process,

00:44:30.145 --> 00:44:31.166

the whole embarrassing

00:44:31.186 --> 00:44:32.207

thing of not taking the

00:44:32.247 --> 00:44:33.828

sacrament in public,

00:44:33.868 --> 00:44:35.950

which is super embarrassing and shameful.

00:44:37.231 --> 00:44:38.792

And you went through all of that,

00:44:38.852 --> 00:44:40.053

and the bishop was like, okay,

00:44:40.073 --> 00:44:40.834

you're good now.

00:44:41.194 --> 00:44:42.955

You can take the sacrament.

00:44:43.616 --> 00:44:44.697

Everything's forgiven.

00:44:45.157 --> 00:44:50.381

And then your stake president at BYU said,

00:44:51.565 --> 00:44:52.525

wanted to bring all that

00:44:52.565 --> 00:44:55.807

back up again yes yes so he

00:44:55.947 --> 00:44:57.367

asked if there were that

00:44:57.407 --> 00:44:59.388

type of sexual sin right

00:45:00.368 --> 00:45:02.689

what happened to when you

00:45:02.729 --> 00:45:04.490

repent of your sin i the

00:45:04.530 --> 00:45:05.910

lord remember your sins no

00:45:05.970 --> 00:45:07.231

more like whatever happened

00:45:07.251 --> 00:45:10.232

to that this because

00:45:10.272 --> 00:45:11.913

there's there are they

00:45:11.973 --> 00:45:13.313

deemed and keep in mind

00:45:14.153 --> 00:45:17.675

those sins were three four

00:45:17.715 --> 00:45:19.035

years ago so i had been

00:45:19.075 --> 00:45:20.456

good for a long time right yeah

00:45:22.532 --> 00:45:24.374

it wasn't like it just happened, right?

00:45:24.394 --> 00:45:25.535

Which would be different.

00:45:26.036 --> 00:45:28.838

But if there are, they, you know,

00:45:28.879 --> 00:45:30.120

when they raised the bar,

00:45:31.261 --> 00:45:32.883

I think it was like, if you have,

00:45:32.963 --> 00:45:34.985

if you have sex with,

00:45:35.225 --> 00:45:36.727

with someone multiple times

00:45:36.927 --> 00:45:38.488

or multiple people,

00:45:38.669 --> 00:45:40.831

then you're on high alert

00:45:40.911 --> 00:45:42.472

or you cannot serve a mission.

00:45:42.512 --> 00:45:44.715

And I remember that came out

00:45:44.855 --> 00:45:45.736

right after that,

00:45:46.511 --> 00:45:48.112

that had happened and I was

00:45:48.332 --> 00:45:49.473

sweating bullets.

00:45:49.493 --> 00:45:50.374

So you can imagine being a

00:45:50.414 --> 00:45:53.096

teenager and the whole

00:45:53.837 --> 00:45:56.499

thing of staying worthy was to,

00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:57.719

so that I could serve a

00:45:57.739 --> 00:45:59.741

mission and those sins

00:45:59.781 --> 00:46:01.983

compared to like my brothers, you know,

00:46:02.043 --> 00:46:03.704

it was, it was way less.

00:46:03.744 --> 00:46:04.344

And so I,

00:46:05.305 --> 00:46:06.565

But then they raised the bar.

00:46:06.665 --> 00:46:07.666

They literally called it

00:46:07.706 --> 00:46:08.586

raising the bar of the

00:46:08.606 --> 00:46:09.786

standards that you have to

00:46:09.846 --> 00:46:11.866

have lived as a kid and a

00:46:11.926 --> 00:46:13.767

teenager to go on a mission.

00:46:14.087 --> 00:46:14.407

Yeah.

00:46:14.467 --> 00:46:16.928

So you made out with a girl,

00:46:16.968 --> 00:46:17.908

fooled around with a girl,

00:46:18.168 --> 00:46:19.048

went through the whole

00:46:19.088 --> 00:46:20.268

repentance process on that.

00:46:20.288 --> 00:46:21.729

And then for three or four

00:46:21.769 --> 00:46:24.389

years as a teenage young man,

00:46:25.069 --> 00:46:28.150

you did nothing like that.

00:46:28.170 --> 00:46:28.490

Correct.

00:46:29.133 --> 00:46:31.094

So kudos to you because

00:46:31.214 --> 00:46:33.695

that's amazing for you to

00:46:34.115 --> 00:46:35.256

be able to overcome

00:46:35.336 --> 00:46:37.017

millions of years of biology.

00:46:38.397 --> 00:46:38.478

Well,

00:46:38.578 --> 00:46:40.378

I was scared to death of not serving

00:46:40.398 --> 00:46:40.899

a mission.

00:46:41.299 --> 00:46:41.479

Yeah.

00:46:41.579 --> 00:46:42.880

And that goes back to the

00:46:42.900 --> 00:46:44.180

whole narcissism discussion.

00:46:44.200 --> 00:46:45.341

When you're doing obedience

00:46:45.361 --> 00:46:47.062

and duty versus authenticity,

00:46:47.402 --> 00:46:49.343

that's not fostering integrity.

00:46:49.523 --> 00:46:50.203

That's fostering.

00:46:50.323 --> 00:46:51.284

I don't want to get caught.

00:46:51.504 --> 00:46:53.805

I just, so yeah.

00:46:54.085 --> 00:46:55.286

That's such a great point.

00:46:55.766 --> 00:46:57.408

It's like you don't even

00:46:57.468 --> 00:46:58.769

have the opportunity to

00:46:58.889 --> 00:47:00.510

exercise personal integrity

00:47:00.550 --> 00:47:01.411

because that's not the

00:47:01.451 --> 00:47:02.432

reason that you're keeping

00:47:02.492 --> 00:47:03.312

all of these rules.

00:47:03.332 --> 00:47:04.253

You're keeping all of these

00:47:04.313 --> 00:47:05.634

rules in order to remain

00:47:05.694 --> 00:47:07.676

acceptable in an incredibly

00:47:07.736 --> 00:47:09.037

demanding system where it's

00:47:09.137 --> 00:47:11.259

almost impossible to check

00:47:11.299 --> 00:47:12.780

every single box and to

00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:13.701

really live that way.

00:47:14.423 --> 00:47:15.244

Yeah,

00:47:15.264 --> 00:47:17.386

and that's another narcissistic thing

00:47:17.406 --> 00:47:19.567

that we didn't get into is

00:47:19.707 --> 00:47:21.989

duty and obedience over authenticity.

00:47:22.390 --> 00:47:25.452

And that doesn't foster that integrity.

00:47:25.512 --> 00:47:27.854

Like we said, it's checking all the boxes.

00:47:27.914 --> 00:47:28.875

And as long as you can check

00:47:28.915 --> 00:47:31.217

all the boxes and everyone can see that,

00:47:31.838 --> 00:47:32.538

you're okay.

00:47:33.059 --> 00:47:34.580

But that doesn't do good for

00:47:34.620 --> 00:47:35.280

your emotional,

00:47:35.341 --> 00:47:37.482

mental health and well-being.

00:47:38.043 --> 00:47:38.984

Right.

00:47:39.024 --> 00:47:40.044

So your stake president

00:47:40.064 --> 00:47:41.586

wants to bring up this sin again.

00:47:42.495 --> 00:47:43.795

yes because he's like have

00:47:43.815 --> 00:47:45.996

you ever done this it's had

00:47:46.036 --> 00:47:47.916

sex or whatever and the

00:47:47.996 --> 00:47:49.377

answer was yes he didn't

00:47:49.417 --> 00:47:53.038

say you know if you have

00:47:53.078 --> 00:47:53.858

done these things and

00:47:53.878 --> 00:47:54.718

you've taken care of them

00:47:54.738 --> 00:47:56.578

that's fine he said no have

00:47:56.618 --> 00:47:58.579

you and i explained i took

00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:00.919

care of all of this and it

00:48:00.939 --> 00:48:03.940

was sex you know and he was

00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:07.541

like and it was four or

00:48:07.581 --> 00:48:09.402

five times okay let's just

00:48:09.902 --> 00:48:10.862

get it out there i don't care

00:48:11.855 --> 00:48:14.356

And he was like, okay, pausing.

00:48:14.836 --> 00:48:15.796

I'm sweating bullets.

00:48:16.156 --> 00:48:17.037

I'm traumatized because I

00:48:17.057 --> 00:48:19.117

already went through this shit, you know?

00:48:19.137 --> 00:48:20.438

Right, right.

00:48:20.658 --> 00:48:22.279

And now it's to go on a mission.

00:48:22.359 --> 00:48:24.179

And he's like, okay.

00:48:24.299 --> 00:48:25.600

And so he gets his pen out

00:48:25.780 --> 00:48:30.221

on my folder and he writes for a while.

00:48:31.122 --> 00:48:31.722

And he's like,

00:48:32.802 --> 00:48:33.542

I'm going to need to get

00:48:33.582 --> 00:48:36.963

this approved by someone above me.

00:48:37.444 --> 00:48:37.704

Wow.

00:48:38.124 --> 00:48:39.624

And it wasn't like, you're worthy.

00:48:39.804 --> 00:48:40.345

Good job.

00:48:40.985 --> 00:48:41.265

Leave.

00:48:42.042 --> 00:48:43.283

Because that's how everyone else went,

00:48:43.603 --> 00:48:43.943

you know?

00:48:44.004 --> 00:48:44.284

Right.

00:48:44.564 --> 00:48:47.686

I had to wait to find out

00:48:48.447 --> 00:48:50.368

for several days if I was

00:48:50.408 --> 00:48:52.550

going to be okay.

00:48:53.571 --> 00:48:55.032

But on that folder,

00:48:55.472 --> 00:48:57.114

on that file that they sent

00:48:57.134 --> 00:48:58.154

to who knows what,

00:48:58.375 --> 00:48:59.756

it's very personal details

00:49:00.356 --> 00:49:01.877

about me and what I did

00:49:02.097 --> 00:49:02.898

when I was fifteen.

00:49:03.739 --> 00:49:04.039

Wow.

00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:06.521

I'm so sorry.

00:49:07.768 --> 00:49:09.010

Well, it's, it's okay.

00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:10.472

And now we can laugh about

00:49:10.512 --> 00:49:11.594

it because they did let me go.

00:49:11.994 --> 00:49:13.356

Um,

00:49:13.396 --> 00:49:15.679

but that was a very traumatic nerve

00:49:15.699 --> 00:49:17.021

wracking week.

00:49:17.242 --> 00:49:17.462

I mean,

00:49:17.482 --> 00:49:19.405

can you imagine the conversation if I,

00:49:19.465 --> 00:49:20.226

if they said no,

00:49:20.486 --> 00:49:21.387

and then I have to go to my

00:49:21.428 --> 00:49:22.389

parents and my dad.

00:49:23.536 --> 00:49:24.777

And how many other people

00:49:24.817 --> 00:49:27.738

did they do that to and not allow to go?

00:49:28.099 --> 00:49:28.359

Right.

00:49:28.439 --> 00:49:29.459

And there again,

00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:31.140

I'm always going to mention

00:49:31.781 --> 00:49:33.121

that this comes down to

00:49:33.161 --> 00:49:34.802

Bishop Roulette and stake

00:49:34.822 --> 00:49:35.703

president Roulette,

00:49:35.723 --> 00:49:36.503

because there are some

00:49:36.543 --> 00:49:38.164

bishops who would say, you know,

00:49:38.344 --> 00:49:39.024

you repented.

00:49:39.104 --> 00:49:39.925

It's in the past.

00:49:40.125 --> 00:49:41.226

I completely understand.

00:49:42.355 --> 00:49:43.996

that's great that you went

00:49:44.016 --> 00:49:45.337

through this repentance process.

00:49:45.397 --> 00:49:46.177

Now maybe you'll probably

00:49:46.197 --> 00:49:48.439

have more empathy for other people, blah,

00:49:48.459 --> 00:49:48.879

blah, blah.

00:49:49.499 --> 00:49:51.380

No, no, that's not what it was.

00:49:51.741 --> 00:49:52.021

You know,

00:49:52.441 --> 00:49:53.822

you could have a stake president

00:49:53.842 --> 00:49:54.883

that would say the same thing.

00:49:54.903 --> 00:49:55.963

Well, you already repented.

00:49:56.003 --> 00:49:56.504

You're good.

00:49:56.884 --> 00:49:58.605

But this stake president says, huh,

00:49:59.045 --> 00:49:59.886

not sure if you're going to

00:49:59.906 --> 00:50:00.886

be qualified to serve a

00:50:00.946 --> 00:50:02.547

mission now because of

00:50:02.627 --> 00:50:03.568

something that you did

00:50:03.888 --> 00:50:05.169

three or four years ago

00:50:05.329 --> 00:50:06.249

that you went through the

00:50:06.530 --> 00:50:08.631

repentance process already, uh,

00:50:09.051 --> 00:50:11.233

I just... It's just mind-blowing to me.

00:50:11.253 --> 00:50:12.274

Yeah.

00:50:12.434 --> 00:50:14.476

And also, I just want to touch on, too,

00:50:14.576 --> 00:50:17.999

like, this religion is obsessed with sex.

00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:20.881

I think there's been more... I have...

00:50:22.105 --> 00:50:26.947

thought way less about sex, sexuality,

00:50:27.268 --> 00:50:28.628

pornography since I've left

00:50:28.668 --> 00:50:30.109

the church than I did when

00:50:30.149 --> 00:50:32.330

I was in the church the entire time.

00:50:32.630 --> 00:50:33.591

Because you know what that

00:50:33.631 --> 00:50:34.671

stake president is then

00:50:34.711 --> 00:50:36.492

doing is going to his area

00:50:36.532 --> 00:50:37.693

presidency and he's calling

00:50:37.713 --> 00:50:38.373

them up and he's saying,

00:50:38.433 --> 00:50:40.674

I had a young missionary in here,

00:50:40.694 --> 00:50:41.755

potential missionary.

00:50:41.935 --> 00:50:43.656

He's getting ready to go on his mission,

00:50:44.056 --> 00:50:45.897

but he had sex five years ago.

00:50:46.678 --> 00:50:49.841

And they ask you, depending on the person,

00:50:49.861 --> 00:50:51.764

they ask you follow up detail questions.

00:50:52.004 --> 00:50:53.065

Yes, exactly.

00:50:53.085 --> 00:50:54.107

There's no guideline.

00:50:54.267 --> 00:50:55.989

It's just that that person

00:50:56.049 --> 00:50:57.070

and a lot of those guys

00:50:57.531 --> 00:50:59.093

love that authority and it

00:50:59.113 --> 00:51:00.514

gives them an excuse to get

00:51:00.534 --> 00:51:01.456

very invasive.

00:51:01.556 --> 00:51:02.277

And as we know,

00:51:02.317 --> 00:51:04.479

there's sexual abuse going on here,

00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:04.940

you know.

00:51:05.555 --> 00:51:05.775

Yeah.

00:51:05.935 --> 00:51:07.817

And let's also just point

00:51:07.977 --> 00:51:09.558

out that if you are a

00:51:09.618 --> 00:51:11.359

person who is narcissistic

00:51:12.019 --> 00:51:14.281

and you enjoy controlling

00:51:14.341 --> 00:51:16.702

other people and it makes

00:51:16.723 --> 00:51:18.804

you feel powerful to control other people,

00:51:19.424 --> 00:51:20.545

you're going to make people

00:51:20.585 --> 00:51:22.707

sweat in those interviews on purpose.

00:51:23.427 --> 00:51:23.667

On purpose.

00:51:24.208 --> 00:51:25.388

I actually had this happen

00:51:25.408 --> 00:51:27.850

to me one time where the

00:51:27.910 --> 00:51:28.670

person that was

00:51:28.751 --> 00:51:31.933

interviewing me on the stake level,

00:51:32.813 --> 00:51:33.814

it wasn't the stake president,

00:51:33.834 --> 00:51:34.795

it was one of his counselors.

00:51:36.216 --> 00:51:36.436

you know,

00:51:36.556 --> 00:51:37.517

asked me if I kept the law of

00:51:37.537 --> 00:51:38.799

chastity and I said, yes.

00:51:39.019 --> 00:51:39.940

And he said, thank you.

00:51:40.301 --> 00:51:40.741

Thank you.

00:51:41.302 --> 00:51:42.623

And then he went on to talk

00:51:42.643 --> 00:51:43.744

about how important it is

00:51:43.785 --> 00:51:44.966

to keep the law of chastity.

00:51:45.547 --> 00:51:46.988

And then he went on to talk

00:51:47.008 --> 00:51:48.009

about what it's like when

00:51:48.069 --> 00:51:49.011

someone breaks the law of

00:51:49.031 --> 00:51:50.092

chastity and they have a

00:51:50.132 --> 00:51:51.994

council of love as they call it.

00:51:53.335 --> 00:51:54.797

And then he asked me again,

00:51:55.794 --> 00:51:57.115

if I keep the law of chastity.

00:51:57.895 --> 00:51:59.656

And then he kept asking me

00:51:59.716 --> 00:52:01.297

all these leading questions like,

00:52:02.018 --> 00:52:03.739

if you were to break the law of chastity,

00:52:04.139 --> 00:52:05.920

do you know what would happen to you?

00:52:06.600 --> 00:52:07.301

And I was like, yeah,

00:52:07.581 --> 00:52:09.202

you have a disciplinary counsel,

00:52:09.222 --> 00:52:10.663

you have to go confess and all that.

00:52:10.683 --> 00:52:11.023

And he said,

00:52:11.763 --> 00:52:12.844

did you know that we call

00:52:12.884 --> 00:52:13.945

those courts of love?

00:52:14.065 --> 00:52:14.545

And I said, yeah,

00:52:14.565 --> 00:52:15.846

I think that I've heard that.

00:52:15.866 --> 00:52:16.906

What are you getting at?

00:52:17.227 --> 00:52:18.267

This line of questioning

00:52:18.327 --> 00:52:20.529

went on for at least five minutes.

00:52:20.609 --> 00:52:21.149

And I was like,

00:52:23.613 --> 00:52:24.314

I, at the time,

00:52:24.434 --> 00:52:26.095

had no words to understand

00:52:26.135 --> 00:52:27.456

what was really happening there.

00:52:28.016 --> 00:52:29.757

But now that I understand

00:52:30.558 --> 00:52:32.699

tactics of manipulation and control,

00:52:33.240 --> 00:52:33.620

I was like,

00:52:34.040 --> 00:52:35.461

he was trying to manipulate me

00:52:35.501 --> 00:52:36.842

into confessing something

00:52:37.542 --> 00:52:39.124

or into saying more than

00:52:39.524 --> 00:52:42.226

the simple answer of, no,

00:52:42.746 --> 00:52:43.807

I haven't done anything wrong.

00:52:43.887 --> 00:52:44.907

Yes, I kept the law of chai.

00:52:44.927 --> 00:52:47.349

It just felt so manipulative to me,

00:52:47.389 --> 00:52:48.770

but I didn't know that

00:52:48.810 --> 00:52:49.951

that's what it was at the time.

00:52:50.754 --> 00:52:51.014

Yeah.

00:52:51.034 --> 00:52:51.895

And it's all too common.

00:52:53.176 --> 00:52:54.497

It's all too common because

00:52:55.058 --> 00:52:57.280

that authority power, you know,

00:52:57.300 --> 00:52:58.020

we talked about it,

00:52:58.200 --> 00:52:58.821

you're breeding a

00:52:58.861 --> 00:53:00.723

narcissist and then you're

00:53:00.743 --> 00:53:02.444

giving them the keys to the

00:53:02.484 --> 00:53:05.527

car of all of our souls, you know,

00:53:05.567 --> 00:53:08.589

to be able to have unfiltered,

00:53:08.930 --> 00:53:12.853

unobserved private

00:53:12.893 --> 00:53:14.835

conversations to abuse that power.

00:53:15.335 --> 00:53:15.796

Yeah.

00:53:15.876 --> 00:53:18.458

And it's just, it's, it's, it's terrible.

00:53:20.686 --> 00:53:22.187

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

00:53:22.347 --> 00:53:23.988

No, yeah, thank you for saying that.

00:53:24.108 --> 00:53:25.109

And I'm sorry that you had

00:53:25.149 --> 00:53:26.890

to go through having this

00:53:26.950 --> 00:53:29.872

mission president revisit

00:53:29.912 --> 00:53:30.832

something that you thought

00:53:30.912 --> 00:53:32.273

was done and over with.

00:53:32.293 --> 00:53:33.974

Because that, to me,

00:53:34.114 --> 00:53:35.655

the whole point of going in

00:53:35.695 --> 00:53:36.876

and talking to your bishop

00:53:36.996 --> 00:53:38.197

is to relieve those

00:53:38.237 --> 00:53:39.657

feelings of guilt and shame

00:53:39.677 --> 00:53:40.358

that you have.

00:53:40.894 --> 00:53:42.755

And to truly repent,

00:53:43.095 --> 00:53:44.296

they tell us we have to go

00:53:44.356 --> 00:53:45.456

talk to our bishop about it

00:53:45.476 --> 00:53:47.597

because he is our judge in Israel, right?

00:53:48.417 --> 00:53:51.639

And the whole point of that process is to

00:53:53.021 --> 00:53:54.942

you know, is to change your heart.

00:53:55.162 --> 00:53:56.783

And when you think that you

00:53:56.843 --> 00:53:59.545

have done that and it's over with,

00:53:59.585 --> 00:54:01.526

to have it brought up again is traumatic.

00:54:01.967 --> 00:54:03.088

To have to relive all of

00:54:03.128 --> 00:54:05.249

those feelings of guilt and shame again,

00:54:05.769 --> 00:54:07.751

and then to know that that

00:54:07.771 --> 00:54:09.151

stake president is talking

00:54:09.191 --> 00:54:10.472

to an area president about

00:54:10.592 --> 00:54:11.753

all the details that you've

00:54:11.773 --> 00:54:13.414

shared and that they're

00:54:13.494 --> 00:54:14.155

trying to make a

00:54:14.215 --> 00:54:17.397

determination over whether that, you know,

00:54:17.997 --> 00:54:19.738

whether that removes your worthiness.

00:54:20.319 --> 00:54:21.800

It's just the whole process.

00:54:22.720 --> 00:54:23.920

And all of that, you know,

00:54:27.061 --> 00:54:27.961

talking about it,

00:54:28.021 --> 00:54:29.001

talking about people and

00:54:29.021 --> 00:54:31.662

their sins to other people, you know,

00:54:32.062 --> 00:54:32.562

it just,

00:54:32.982 --> 00:54:35.343

all of that is so disgusting to me.

00:54:35.603 --> 00:54:36.683

It's hard for me to even

00:54:36.843 --> 00:54:38.163

find words to describe it.

00:54:38.684 --> 00:54:39.484

I didn't,

00:54:39.644 --> 00:54:41.664

I wasn't able to pass the sacrament for,

00:54:42.224 --> 00:54:43.245

I think, six months.

00:54:44.565 --> 00:54:44.645

Wow.

00:54:44.845 --> 00:54:49.326

And still, it wasn't cleared, you know.

00:54:49.924 --> 00:54:50.124

Yeah,

00:54:50.264 --> 00:54:52.507

so you so you waited for several days,

00:54:52.567 --> 00:54:53.488

you said for the stake

00:54:53.508 --> 00:54:54.428

president to come back and

00:54:54.469 --> 00:54:55.590

let you know whether you

00:54:55.610 --> 00:54:56.751

could serve a mission.

00:54:56.971 --> 00:54:59.493

And so yeah, there was, there was,

00:54:59.513 --> 00:55:00.494

he literally just wrote,

00:55:00.695 --> 00:55:02.356

it was a manila folder with

00:55:02.396 --> 00:55:04.118

all of my files in it,

00:55:04.298 --> 00:55:06.300

all the application stuff.

00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:07.661

And it was a manila folder

00:55:07.681 --> 00:55:09.283

that he wrote in big and sharpie.

00:55:09.443 --> 00:55:10.624

And I couldn't see what he wrote.

00:55:10.664 --> 00:55:13.006

But that's how my folder going everywhere.

00:55:13.147 --> 00:55:13.327

Wow.

00:55:15.058 --> 00:55:16.579

So then did he come back?

00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:17.380

Did he call you?

00:55:17.640 --> 00:55:19.161

Did you go back in for an interview?

00:55:19.221 --> 00:55:20.102

How did that happen?

00:55:20.882 --> 00:55:23.744

Went back and basically said,

00:55:23.984 --> 00:55:25.425

we're good to go.

00:55:25.505 --> 00:55:27.427

He didn't go into any like

00:55:27.887 --> 00:55:29.889

comforting thing whatsoever.

00:55:30.489 --> 00:55:34.992

It was just, all right, you're good to go.

00:55:35.032 --> 00:55:36.813

So that was a relief.

00:55:36.874 --> 00:55:37.614

It wasn't like,

00:55:37.674 --> 00:55:39.135

thank you for repenting and

00:55:39.155 --> 00:55:40.756

thank you for doing all the right things.

00:55:40.836 --> 00:55:41.897

And thank you for being so

00:55:41.957 --> 00:55:43.218

honest and telling me about

00:55:43.238 --> 00:55:43.898

a very personal thing.

00:55:45.038 --> 00:55:47.982

It was just, all right, you're good to go.

00:55:48.022 --> 00:55:48.603

You're good to go.

00:55:48.843 --> 00:55:52.188

And there's no standardization of that,

00:55:52.228 --> 00:55:54.130

like you said, from bishop to bishop.

00:55:54.271 --> 00:55:56.013

I mean, I had a friend,

00:55:56.153 --> 00:55:57.935

a roommate at BYU who,

00:55:58.769 --> 00:55:59.950

who was ready to get married

00:56:00.090 --> 00:56:01.371

and they literally moved

00:56:01.471 --> 00:56:03.272

wards so they could get

00:56:03.312 --> 00:56:05.114

married because that Bishop said no.

00:56:05.454 --> 00:56:05.934

And they had to,

00:56:06.074 --> 00:56:07.215

they moved wards to get

00:56:07.275 --> 00:56:08.476

another Bishop so they

00:56:08.516 --> 00:56:10.157

could get the worthiness

00:56:10.337 --> 00:56:12.119

interview based off of the

00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:15.041

same information to go and

00:56:15.121 --> 00:56:16.502

get their temple recommend

00:56:16.542 --> 00:56:18.243

to get married.

00:56:18.303 --> 00:56:19.344

So wild to me.

00:56:19.624 --> 00:56:21.706

I just, it, it reiterates to me,

00:56:21.846 --> 00:56:23.007

like I used to be very

00:56:23.067 --> 00:56:24.528

judgmental of people who

00:56:24.588 --> 00:56:26.429

withheld things from their Bishop in,

00:56:26.669 --> 00:56:27.630

in their Bishop's interview.

00:56:31.209 --> 00:56:32.612

But now I completely

00:56:32.673 --> 00:56:35.099

understand why someone would do that.

00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:35.700

First of all,

00:56:37.464 --> 00:56:38.585

it's none of their business

00:56:39.125 --> 00:56:41.207

what you do with your sexuality, you know,

00:56:41.427 --> 00:56:43.068

it really should be between you and God.

00:56:43.308 --> 00:56:46.130

And if you do make a promise

00:56:46.150 --> 00:56:48.171

that you're going to keep, you know,

00:56:48.211 --> 00:56:49.112

the law of chastity,

00:56:49.212 --> 00:56:50.393

that you're not going to

00:56:51.653 --> 00:56:52.714

engage in any sort of

00:56:52.814 --> 00:56:53.795

infidelity outside of

00:56:53.855 --> 00:56:55.256

marriage or whatever, that's, you know,

00:56:55.296 --> 00:56:56.737

your personal integrity to

00:56:56.777 --> 00:56:57.677

keep that or not.

00:56:58.478 --> 00:56:59.599

And I just think,

00:57:00.479 --> 00:57:02.661

if you break a promise that

00:57:02.681 --> 00:57:03.562

you made to God,

00:57:03.642 --> 00:57:05.303

I feel like that's between you and God.

00:57:05.403 --> 00:57:07.425

And I feel like inviting any

00:57:07.545 --> 00:57:09.066

other human being into the

00:57:09.106 --> 00:57:14.671

process is problematic, at the very least,

00:57:14.711 --> 00:57:15.592

but just for the reasons

00:57:15.632 --> 00:57:16.933

that we're talking about here,

00:57:16.973 --> 00:57:19.355

like these are untrained, imperfect,

00:57:19.555 --> 00:57:21.717

mostly unhealed human beings,

00:57:22.557 --> 00:57:24.499

who don't really have the

00:57:24.539 --> 00:57:26.340

compassion necessarily that

00:57:26.380 --> 00:57:27.581

they need to handle these

00:57:27.621 --> 00:57:29.223

kinds of sensitive situations.

00:57:30.439 --> 00:57:31.280

I know.

00:57:31.560 --> 00:57:32.421

It's just awful.

00:57:33.021 --> 00:57:33.782

It truly is.

00:57:34.082 --> 00:57:36.424

And I hope it's going away.

00:57:36.644 --> 00:57:37.585

I haven't had a Bishop's

00:57:37.625 --> 00:57:38.846

interview in a long time.

00:57:39.786 --> 00:57:42.008

And the last few I had,

00:57:43.469 --> 00:57:45.331

I kind of got back at them.

00:57:45.371 --> 00:57:46.872

The last year and a half at BYU,

00:57:46.952 --> 00:57:47.953

I no longer believed.

00:57:48.473 --> 00:57:49.254

I knew it wasn't real,

00:57:49.294 --> 00:57:50.074

but you have to get your

00:57:50.114 --> 00:57:51.536

ecclesiastical endorsement

00:57:52.096 --> 00:57:54.158

twice a year to keep your standing.

00:57:54.178 --> 00:57:55.098

And I remember me and my

00:57:55.118 --> 00:57:56.499

roommates who had gone on

00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:57.400

this journey together,

00:57:57.480 --> 00:57:58.501

we all had to go in and

00:57:59.859 --> 00:58:01.781

we we lied on every single

00:58:01.861 --> 00:58:03.322

one because we needed to

00:58:03.342 --> 00:58:04.443

graduate we needed that

00:58:04.463 --> 00:58:05.384

diploma that's a whole

00:58:05.444 --> 00:58:07.206

nother discussion yeah

00:58:07.646 --> 00:58:10.309

standing at uyu yeah

00:58:10.349 --> 00:58:11.330

because you're you're

00:58:11.630 --> 00:58:12.571

you've invested all this

00:58:12.591 --> 00:58:13.532

time and money in your

00:58:13.612 --> 00:58:16.715

education and they're going

00:58:16.755 --> 00:58:18.477

to withhold your college

00:58:18.517 --> 00:58:21.079

degree from you unless you

00:58:21.540 --> 00:58:22.621

go in there and tell them

00:58:22.681 --> 00:58:23.842

that you believe fully

00:58:25.203 --> 00:58:26.464

And that you've been keeping

00:58:26.504 --> 00:58:27.484

the standards that the

00:58:27.524 --> 00:58:28.704

church expects you to keep.

00:58:29.625 --> 00:58:30.185

So, I mean,

00:58:30.225 --> 00:58:31.525

I guess it's the risk that you

00:58:31.565 --> 00:58:33.646

take when you enroll in a

00:58:33.766 --> 00:58:36.307

private university that is faith-based.

00:58:37.007 --> 00:58:38.428

But a lot of people don't

00:58:38.468 --> 00:58:40.849

know that or understand the

00:58:40.929 --> 00:58:43.170

ramifications of it when they enroll.

00:58:43.850 --> 00:58:46.951

And so many kids go to BYU

00:58:47.031 --> 00:58:48.612

because that's what's expected of them.

00:58:49.712 --> 00:58:51.033

Without really exploring any

00:58:51.113 --> 00:58:52.054

other options.

00:58:52.234 --> 00:58:53.275

And then when you get there

00:58:53.315 --> 00:58:55.316

and you start thinking for yourself,

00:58:55.356 --> 00:58:56.257

you're outside of your

00:58:56.297 --> 00:58:57.438

family culture and you're

00:58:57.498 --> 00:58:58.599

meeting other people who

00:58:58.639 --> 00:59:00.200

have made different choices from you.

00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:01.841

And hopefully, like,

00:59:01.881 --> 00:59:03.282

that's the point of being

00:59:03.843 --> 00:59:05.644

at the university level is

00:59:05.784 --> 00:59:07.065

learning things that you

00:59:07.105 --> 00:59:08.666

can't learn at home, right?

00:59:09.026 --> 00:59:09.307

Yeah.

00:59:09.487 --> 00:59:10.928

And so, you know,

00:59:11.008 --> 00:59:12.709

we hope people are learning those things.

00:59:12.749 --> 00:59:14.030

So I'm sorry that you had to

00:59:14.070 --> 00:59:14.691

go through that.

00:59:14.851 --> 00:59:16.852

I'm glad that you lied on

00:59:16.872 --> 00:59:17.753

your interview because I

00:59:17.773 --> 00:59:19.234

don't think anybody's college

00:59:19.694 --> 00:59:20.895

degrees should be withheld

00:59:20.935 --> 00:59:23.016

from them just because they

00:59:23.096 --> 00:59:24.957

no longer believe in the

00:59:24.997 --> 00:59:26.017

same faith that they did

00:59:26.037 --> 00:59:27.078

when they started college.

00:59:27.098 --> 00:59:27.398

It's like,

00:59:27.438 --> 00:59:28.619

isn't this what you wanted me to

00:59:28.659 --> 00:59:30.339

do is for four years to grow,

00:59:30.520 --> 00:59:31.840

grow and expand my mind in

00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:32.521

new directions.

00:59:32.601 --> 00:59:32.681

Yeah.

00:59:32.701 --> 00:59:35.242

And if I had answered those questions,

00:59:35.262 --> 00:59:35.842

honestly,

00:59:36.022 --> 00:59:37.103

I would have been kicked out of school.

00:59:37.643 --> 00:59:39.784

yeah exactly and you would

00:59:39.824 --> 00:59:41.445

have lost your ability to

00:59:41.645 --> 00:59:42.485

you know to have those

00:59:42.505 --> 00:59:43.886

credits transfer most

00:59:43.926 --> 00:59:44.886

likely you know it's at

00:59:44.906 --> 00:59:45.886

their discretion whether

00:59:45.926 --> 00:59:46.667

they want to release

00:59:46.787 --> 00:59:47.947

records transcripts all of

00:59:47.967 --> 00:59:49.128

that it's it's just all

00:59:49.148 --> 00:59:51.389

very problematic all very

00:59:51.429 --> 00:59:52.529

problematic it's a great

00:59:52.869 --> 00:59:54.790

way to say it yeah i hope

00:59:54.830 --> 00:59:57.431

it's changing oh well it

00:59:57.451 --> 00:59:59.212

sounds like things at byu

00:59:59.292 --> 01:00:02.773

are changing for the worse

01:00:03.413 --> 01:00:04.754

from the standpoint of

01:00:06.113 --> 01:00:07.617

kids being able to get an

01:00:07.718 --> 01:00:09.442

education from people who

01:00:09.503 --> 01:00:10.886

have a broad worldview.

01:00:12.021 --> 01:00:13.381

And who know and believe

01:00:13.421 --> 01:00:14.882

things outside of the faith.

01:00:15.702 --> 01:00:19.222

So from what it sounds like, it's become,

01:00:19.842 --> 01:00:21.083

I said this when it happened,

01:00:21.123 --> 01:00:22.303

and it's just kind of silly,

01:00:22.323 --> 01:00:23.723

but it's exactly what

01:00:23.763 --> 01:00:24.763

happened at Hogwarts when

01:00:24.783 --> 01:00:26.944

Dolores Umbridge came in, you know,

01:00:27.224 --> 01:00:28.724

and she kicked out all the

01:00:28.744 --> 01:00:29.864

people who weren't loyal to

01:00:29.884 --> 01:00:30.744

the prime minister.

01:00:31.384 --> 01:00:33.065

And they started doubling down on,

01:00:33.285 --> 01:00:33.505

you know,

01:00:33.525 --> 01:00:35.645

making lots more rules and having people,

01:00:36.085 --> 01:00:37.045

the staff having to go

01:00:37.065 --> 01:00:37.526

through all these

01:00:37.626 --> 01:00:39.426

interviews to find out their loyalties.

01:00:40.046 --> 01:00:40.386

You know,

01:00:40.546 --> 01:00:41.867

I've got a brother-in-law who's a

01:00:41.907 --> 01:00:42.787

professor at BYU,

01:00:42.847 --> 01:00:44.087

and he says it all feels

01:00:44.167 --> 01:00:47.908

very big brother to a lot of people.

01:00:48.129 --> 01:00:50.569

And my sister is in a

01:00:50.609 --> 01:00:51.830

marriage and family science

01:00:51.870 --> 01:00:54.310

cohort where her supervisor

01:00:54.951 --> 01:00:58.792

for her therapy degree is

01:00:58.832 --> 01:01:00.932

gay and doesn't know

01:01:00.952 --> 01:01:01.853

whether he'll have a job

01:01:01.893 --> 01:01:02.613

next year or not.

01:01:04.298 --> 01:01:05.438

They're just trying to keep

01:01:05.478 --> 01:01:07.239

you in that echo chamber so

01:01:07.279 --> 01:01:09.019

you're not exposed to anything else.

01:01:09.200 --> 01:01:12.160

So they keep you tight.

01:01:12.601 --> 01:01:14.141

They keep you a member.

01:01:14.561 --> 01:01:15.742

And because if you're

01:01:15.782 --> 01:01:17.642

exposed to the rest of the world,

01:01:17.682 --> 01:01:19.263

the chances are you're

01:01:19.283 --> 01:01:20.483

going to see through the flaws.

01:01:20.643 --> 01:01:21.863

And it's a lot like the

01:01:21.883 --> 01:01:23.684

mission in that is they're

01:01:23.724 --> 01:01:25.485

trying to keep you.

01:01:26.105 --> 01:01:27.425

Yeah.

01:01:27.745 --> 01:01:30.146

Well, we are at an hour.

01:01:30.826 --> 01:01:31.586

We're going to take a quick

01:01:31.626 --> 01:01:33.127

break for a commercial.

01:01:33.878 --> 01:01:34.198

All right.

01:01:34.298 --> 01:01:36.419

So where we left off,

01:01:37.380 --> 01:01:38.620

we made it to the MTC.

01:01:39.281 --> 01:01:43.403

You had your goodbye sacrament meeting,

01:01:43.463 --> 01:01:43.763

I guess.

01:01:43.823 --> 01:01:44.683

I don't know what to call it.

01:01:45.343 --> 01:01:45.944

The goodbye.

01:01:47.204 --> 01:01:47.464

I don't know.

01:01:47.484 --> 01:01:48.445

Was it like a sermon?

01:01:49.385 --> 01:01:50.586

Did somebody from the

01:01:51.246 --> 01:01:52.467

general authorities speak?

01:01:52.487 --> 01:01:54.908

Honestly, Megan, my memory,

01:01:55.608 --> 01:01:56.289

I don't remember.

01:01:56.309 --> 01:01:58.970

Maybe I blocked it out.

01:01:59.050 --> 01:02:01.271

And honestly, I had so much

01:02:02.103 --> 01:02:03.425

that happened on the mission

01:02:04.006 --> 01:02:06.750

that I remember in detail,

01:02:07.050 --> 01:02:09.614

maybe not enough to talk about it here.

01:02:10.094 --> 01:02:10.234

Yeah.

01:02:11.019 --> 01:02:12.600

Because honestly, most of the training,

01:02:13.801 --> 01:02:15.002

it's like real world training.

01:02:15.022 --> 01:02:16.103

It's like going and getting

01:02:16.123 --> 01:02:17.465

your MBA or going to school,

01:02:17.525 --> 01:02:18.385

but then you actually get a

01:02:18.445 --> 01:02:20.327

job and you learn on the job.

01:02:20.547 --> 01:02:24.771

And that's kind of more what I remember.

01:02:24.931 --> 01:02:26.032

So, I mean,

01:02:26.072 --> 01:02:28.834

I remember the kind of the structure.

01:02:29.035 --> 01:02:29.215

I mean,

01:02:29.255 --> 01:02:32.417

it's all coercive control boot camp.

01:02:32.578 --> 01:02:34.019

But I mean,

01:02:34.099 --> 01:02:37.582

I think there's more out in the

01:02:37.622 --> 01:02:38.603

mission that you learn.

01:02:38.623 --> 01:02:38.703

Yeah.

01:02:39.515 --> 01:02:40.399

Yeah, for sure.

01:02:40.981 --> 01:02:43.712

So I think we had talked about

01:02:46.609 --> 01:02:48.370

you getting to the MTC and

01:02:48.390 --> 01:02:50.711

you get assigned a

01:02:50.751 --> 01:02:53.153

companion and you have a district,

01:02:53.333 --> 01:02:55.274

which is a group of missionaries, right?

01:02:55.314 --> 01:02:57.074

So how many sets of

01:02:57.134 --> 01:02:58.195

missionaries were in your

01:02:58.275 --> 01:02:59.275

district in the MTC?

01:02:59.316 --> 01:03:02.537

It's like five to eight sets.

01:03:02.917 --> 01:03:04.818

So anywhere from ten to

01:03:05.018 --> 01:03:08.580

sixteen missionaries, about that.

01:03:08.660 --> 01:03:08.900

Okay.

01:03:09.020 --> 01:03:09.921

And the point of the

01:03:09.981 --> 01:03:10.981

district of putting you in

01:03:11.001 --> 01:03:12.662

a group like that is what?

01:03:14.290 --> 01:03:15.911

It's really kind of like a

01:03:15.971 --> 01:03:18.713

ward versus a stake versus

01:03:19.173 --> 01:03:20.894

an area just so there's

01:03:20.974 --> 01:03:22.816

more control and you can

01:03:23.056 --> 01:03:24.177

kind of have a little bit

01:03:24.217 --> 01:03:29.240

of community within your community.

01:03:30.415 --> 01:03:31.737

your fellow missionaries, right?

01:03:31.757 --> 01:03:32.878

So you have district

01:03:32.918 --> 01:03:34.399

meetings each week where

01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:35.700

someone talks about

01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:37.282

something and you practice

01:03:37.582 --> 01:03:39.744

and it's just kind of a

01:03:39.824 --> 01:03:42.747

closer knit group where you

01:03:42.787 --> 01:03:45.429

can talk and you have a

01:03:45.489 --> 01:03:46.670

district leader and the

01:03:46.690 --> 01:03:47.691

district leader is someone

01:03:47.731 --> 01:03:49.433

who's been in the MTC two weeks.

01:03:50.073 --> 01:03:51.695

you know um but you look up

01:03:51.735 --> 01:03:52.976

to them like they're a god

01:03:53.216 --> 01:03:54.538

like they're just this old

01:03:54.618 --> 01:03:57.420

refined perfect lds guy um

01:03:57.621 --> 01:03:58.602

because he's been in the

01:03:58.702 --> 01:04:00.223

mtc one week longer than

01:04:00.263 --> 01:04:01.344

you but you look up to them

01:04:01.364 --> 01:04:02.185

because they've they've

01:04:02.205 --> 01:04:03.887

been there and yeah it's

01:04:03.967 --> 01:04:05.348

it's a good opportunity for

01:04:05.749 --> 01:04:06.689

them to teach you what

01:04:06.709 --> 01:04:07.570

they've learned within

01:04:07.590 --> 01:04:08.832

their first couple weeks

01:04:09.432 --> 01:04:11.033

and then you know each week

01:04:11.053 --> 01:04:11.973

you're cycling through

01:04:12.013 --> 01:04:13.233

because people leave and

01:04:13.253 --> 01:04:14.874

then you get new people and

01:04:14.894 --> 01:04:16.114

then maybe even one of you

01:04:16.174 --> 01:04:17.295

end up being the district

01:04:17.335 --> 01:04:19.855

leader and you do have um

01:04:19.875 --> 01:04:21.056

there's several mission

01:04:21.096 --> 01:04:22.476

presidents within the mtc

01:04:22.516 --> 01:04:24.957

okay um i don't know how

01:04:25.037 --> 01:04:26.137

many but we had a mission

01:04:26.178 --> 01:04:28.538

president and you know you

01:04:28.558 --> 01:04:29.959

talk to him a lot and it's

01:04:30.079 --> 01:04:32.280

a it's a very our our guy

01:04:32.300 --> 01:04:33.720

was a very older gentleman

01:04:34.304 --> 01:04:35.966

His wife would come as well.

01:04:36.066 --> 01:04:38.768

And, you know, he's teaching you things,

01:04:38.808 --> 01:04:39.689

giving you advice.

01:04:39.709 --> 01:04:42.211

You're just constantly being fed.

01:04:42.331 --> 01:04:42.551

Yeah.

01:04:42.611 --> 01:04:45.094

So your entire day.

01:04:46.094 --> 01:04:48.036

So you're with your companion in the MTC.

01:04:48.296 --> 01:04:49.037

Yes.

01:04:49.718 --> 01:04:51.259

And your entire day from

01:04:51.339 --> 01:04:52.840

waking up to going to sleep

01:04:52.960 --> 01:04:54.862

is either studying,

01:04:55.463 --> 01:04:56.483

learning your language if

01:04:56.503 --> 01:04:57.845

you're going to a foreign mission,

01:04:58.325 --> 01:04:59.426

and learning how to...

01:05:01.156 --> 01:05:03.838

how to teach people, investigators,

01:05:03.878 --> 01:05:04.739

they call them, you know,

01:05:04.779 --> 01:05:05.880

who are who are wanting to

01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:07.041

know more about the church.

01:05:07.601 --> 01:05:09.883

So can you get into any of

01:05:09.963 --> 01:05:11.304

sort of the tactics that

01:05:11.385 --> 01:05:12.666

that came up during that time,

01:05:12.766 --> 01:05:14.187

how to find people to teach

01:05:14.327 --> 01:05:15.828

and just anything that they

01:05:15.868 --> 01:05:16.729

taught you about that?

01:05:17.950 --> 01:05:18.390

Yes.

01:05:19.511 --> 01:05:21.213

One big one that I remember

01:05:21.253 --> 01:05:23.194

that is just beyond toxic

01:05:23.475 --> 01:05:24.796

is and I can bring up the

01:05:24.836 --> 01:05:26.397

quote from Preach My Gospel.

01:05:26.884 --> 01:05:28.285

is it encourages you to

01:05:28.325 --> 01:05:29.986

reach out and seek out

01:05:30.026 --> 01:05:31.608

people who have suffered a

01:05:31.688 --> 01:05:32.849

death in the family,

01:05:33.629 --> 01:05:35.150

that have gone through a divorce.

01:05:35.871 --> 01:05:37.952

So you're looking for vulnerable people.

01:05:38.313 --> 01:05:39.694

You're looking for people

01:05:40.254 --> 01:05:42.556

who are humble to the spirit.

01:05:43.457 --> 01:05:44.517

So, I mean,

01:05:44.577 --> 01:05:46.799

that's exploitation at its finest.

01:05:46.839 --> 01:05:49.041

You're trying to seek out

01:05:49.121 --> 01:05:51.703

those that are really vulnerable.

01:05:52.808 --> 01:05:54.332

So it's literally in the

01:05:54.392 --> 01:05:56.177

manual that you're supposed

01:05:56.217 --> 01:05:57.560

to purposely look for

01:05:57.600 --> 01:05:59.044

people who have suffered

01:05:59.124 --> 01:06:00.267

some kind of a death or a

01:06:00.327 --> 01:06:01.269

loss in their family.

01:06:02.010 --> 01:06:04.752

yes, let me find it.

01:06:04.772 --> 01:06:05.732

It just blows my mind.

01:06:05.793 --> 01:06:06.433

Cause I've heard,

01:06:06.553 --> 01:06:08.514

I've heard people say this before, but I,

01:06:08.894 --> 01:06:09.835

I thought that it was just

01:06:09.875 --> 01:06:11.516

kind of a suggestion of like,

01:06:11.896 --> 01:06:13.357

look for people who are humble.

01:06:13.397 --> 01:06:13.637

You know,

01:06:13.697 --> 01:06:15.939

somebody who's recently lost a

01:06:15.979 --> 01:06:17.980

loved one who, you know,

01:06:18.641 --> 01:06:20.722

wants to know where that loved one went,

01:06:20.782 --> 01:06:21.622

looking at,

01:06:21.662 --> 01:06:23.163

looking at it now through the

01:06:23.203 --> 01:06:25.645

lens of emotional manipulation and

01:06:27.723 --> 01:06:29.564

That's just it's just it's

01:06:30.345 --> 01:06:32.046

unbelievable to me, you know,

01:06:32.086 --> 01:06:33.867

that as a as a true believing member,

01:06:33.907 --> 01:06:35.488

I would hear that and go, oh, of course,

01:06:35.528 --> 01:06:36.528

someone who just lost a

01:06:36.568 --> 01:06:38.049

loved one would want to

01:06:38.089 --> 01:06:41.571

hear about a plan for the afterlife.

01:06:41.611 --> 01:06:42.071

And of course,

01:06:42.091 --> 01:06:42.652

they would want to be

01:06:42.712 --> 01:06:44.313

comforted by that information.

01:06:44.353 --> 01:06:44.913

But literally,

01:06:44.953 --> 01:06:46.554

the church is telling you to

01:06:46.594 --> 01:06:47.494

seek out those people,

01:06:47.555 --> 01:06:48.595

not because they need to

01:06:48.615 --> 01:06:49.576

hear that message,

01:06:49.596 --> 01:06:50.596

but because they are

01:06:51.277 --> 01:06:53.058

emotionally humble in that moment.

01:06:53.118 --> 01:06:54.799

Like they're more likely to

01:06:54.879 --> 01:06:55.839

listen to the message

01:06:55.879 --> 01:06:56.860

because they're grieving.

01:06:57.340 --> 01:06:58.240

That's sick.

01:06:59.081 --> 01:06:59.461

It is.

01:07:00.481 --> 01:07:01.262

It absolutely is.

01:07:01.282 --> 01:07:02.682

And I was just like you and that.

01:07:02.742 --> 01:07:03.522

Yeah, of course.

01:07:03.562 --> 01:07:04.823

Like they need the church.

01:07:05.323 --> 01:07:05.643

You know,

01:07:05.703 --> 01:07:07.424

they had a they're a widow now

01:07:07.444 --> 01:07:08.264

and they need it.

01:07:08.304 --> 01:07:09.345

So Preach My Gospel

01:07:11.826 --> 01:07:12.986

literally tells

01:07:13.006 --> 01:07:13.926

missionaries to look for

01:07:13.966 --> 01:07:16.117

people who just lost a family member.

01:07:17.019 --> 01:07:18.040

Okay, yeah.

01:07:18.060 --> 01:07:18.840

The direct quote is,

01:07:18.860 --> 01:07:19.740

look for those who have

01:07:19.780 --> 01:07:20.841

recently experienced a

01:07:20.881 --> 01:07:22.282

death in the family as they

01:07:22.322 --> 01:07:25.083

may be more open to hearing the gospel.

01:07:25.643 --> 01:07:26.283

Translation,

01:07:26.323 --> 01:07:27.664

find people in pain because

01:07:27.684 --> 01:07:28.785

they're easier to convert.

01:07:29.125 --> 01:07:30.245

That's not spirituality.

01:07:30.265 --> 01:07:30.983

That's predatory.

01:07:30.983 --> 01:07:31.415

Yeah.

01:07:31.496 --> 01:07:31.576

Okay.

01:07:31.596 --> 01:07:32.876

That is totally predatory.

01:07:34.017 --> 01:07:34.277

Wow.

01:07:35.037 --> 01:07:35.297

Okay,

01:07:35.377 --> 01:07:37.578

so I'm looking at the manual right now,

01:07:38.799 --> 01:07:40.760

and I'll go ahead and share my screen.

01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:45.061

So this is available.

01:07:45.141 --> 01:07:46.582

All of these materials are

01:07:46.602 --> 01:07:48.184

available on the church website.

01:07:49.084 --> 01:07:50.366

You don't have to have a

01:07:50.426 --> 01:07:52.788

login or anything to see all of these.

01:07:55.850 --> 01:07:56.691

But this,

01:07:56.992 --> 01:07:58.092

it just says here at the

01:07:58.133 --> 01:07:59.073

beginning that it's...

01:08:01.564 --> 01:08:01.684

well,

01:08:01.704 --> 01:08:03.466

there's the first presidency message.

01:08:03.767 --> 01:08:05.168

Um, but it's basically,

01:08:05.208 --> 01:08:06.650

this is the manual for all

01:08:06.970 --> 01:08:08.071

mission presidents,

01:08:08.111 --> 01:08:10.154

ward missionaries and

01:08:10.294 --> 01:08:12.716

proselyting missions, missionaries.

01:08:13.777 --> 01:08:14.999

Um, this is your,

01:08:15.439 --> 01:08:17.782

this is your Bible on a mission.

01:08:17.802 --> 01:08:18.523

It, uh,

01:08:19.063 --> 01:08:20.405

it teaches you each lesson

01:08:20.465 --> 01:08:22.468

in detail it gives you

01:08:22.868 --> 01:08:24.791

scripture references cross

01:08:24.851 --> 01:08:26.653

references it explains the

01:08:26.694 --> 01:08:28.356

lessons in detail it

01:08:28.396 --> 01:08:30.819

teaches you how to teach it

01:08:30.959 --> 01:08:32.682

it gives you tips and tricks like

01:08:34.072 --> 01:08:35.253

look for people who have

01:08:35.453 --> 01:08:36.554

recently lost someone

01:08:36.814 --> 01:08:38.415

because they'll be more in

01:08:38.495 --> 01:08:40.636

tuned and accepting of the spirit.

01:08:41.357 --> 01:08:42.838

And that toxic trait just

01:08:42.858 --> 01:08:44.639

travels the rest of the mission.

01:08:45.379 --> 01:08:46.160

Um, you know,

01:08:46.380 --> 01:08:48.401

we had always tried to track

01:08:48.762 --> 01:08:50.983

and proselyte in areas that

01:08:51.023 --> 01:08:52.304

were more humble.

01:08:53.795 --> 01:08:55.276

You didn't really try to go

01:08:55.376 --> 01:08:57.398

to the rich areas because

01:08:57.598 --> 01:08:59.139

they weren't as susceptible.

01:08:59.619 --> 01:09:02.061

So we try to go to the lower

01:09:02.141 --> 01:09:04.622

income housing a lot

01:09:04.683 --> 01:09:05.943

because we have a lot more

01:09:06.003 --> 01:09:08.385

success there because these

01:09:08.425 --> 01:09:10.867

people are needing hope.

01:09:11.147 --> 01:09:12.628

And when you're a missionary,

01:09:12.668 --> 01:09:13.748

that makes perfect sense.

01:09:13.768 --> 01:09:14.549

Right.

01:09:14.609 --> 01:09:15.850

Of course, these people need it.

01:09:16.470 --> 01:09:17.790

And then you're literally

01:09:17.810 --> 01:09:20.491

just coercing them into an abusive, toxic,

01:09:20.551 --> 01:09:22.172

narcissistic abuse cycle

01:09:22.632 --> 01:09:23.952

where they're love bombed.

01:09:24.352 --> 01:09:25.512

They're brought into the church.

01:09:25.592 --> 01:09:27.813

Everyone loves them.

01:09:27.833 --> 01:09:28.213

By the way,

01:09:28.253 --> 01:09:29.373

you don't tell them everything

01:09:29.393 --> 01:09:30.154

about the church.

01:09:30.174 --> 01:09:32.634

You get them baptized.

01:09:32.654 --> 01:09:33.734

You leave things out.

01:09:34.135 --> 01:09:35.495

And then they're the bell of

01:09:35.515 --> 01:09:36.735

the ball for a couple of weeks.

01:09:36.915 --> 01:09:38.976

And then they're asked to pay tithing.

01:09:39.076 --> 01:09:39.676

And then they're

01:09:40.283 --> 01:09:41.405

literally love-bombed and

01:09:41.445 --> 01:09:43.387

then devalued and then

01:09:43.567 --> 01:09:46.752

guilt-tripped into paying the money,

01:09:47.192 --> 01:09:48.354

devoting to God.

01:09:49.916 --> 01:09:52.199

Yeah, it's a very toxic dynamic.

01:09:53.724 --> 01:09:53.924

Yeah,

01:09:53.984 --> 01:09:56.307

so it strikes me as well that you're

01:09:56.347 --> 01:09:58.449

looking for more humble people.

01:09:58.529 --> 01:10:01.573

So you go to the lower income areas where,

01:10:01.733 --> 01:10:02.013

again,

01:10:02.073 --> 01:10:05.297

people are more vulnerable and they

01:10:05.337 --> 01:10:07.399

can see the opportunity to

01:10:07.439 --> 01:10:08.520

join a church as an

01:10:08.560 --> 01:10:10.402

opportunity to get some

01:10:10.442 --> 01:10:12.424

relief and some help with

01:10:12.444 --> 01:10:13.486

their circumstances.

01:10:14.186 --> 01:10:14.967

And yet they're going to be

01:10:15.127 --> 01:10:17.109

asked to pay tithing, which, you know,

01:10:17.189 --> 01:10:18.430

the financial commitment of

01:10:18.470 --> 01:10:20.331

that for lower income

01:10:20.371 --> 01:10:22.173

people is going to be really difficult.

01:10:22.933 --> 01:10:24.034

And I don't know,

01:10:24.074 --> 01:10:26.056

it's just it's it's I'm

01:10:26.156 --> 01:10:27.997

seeing it as more predatory

01:10:28.017 --> 01:10:30.219

than I have in the past, just because,

01:10:30.900 --> 01:10:31.120

you know,

01:10:31.160 --> 01:10:32.381

not because I've left the church,

01:10:32.421 --> 01:10:34.262

but because I recognize the dynamics,

01:10:34.323 --> 01:10:34.863

of course,

01:10:34.883 --> 01:10:36.704

of control and seeing it

01:10:36.744 --> 01:10:37.785

through that lens.

01:10:38.846 --> 01:10:40.828

It's it's really pretty, pretty sick.

01:10:41.714 --> 01:10:41.894

Yeah,

01:10:41.974 --> 01:10:43.395

we have so much more information

01:10:43.615 --> 01:10:47.376

where scientifically, yes,

01:10:47.516 --> 01:10:48.817

that meets the criteria.

01:10:48.837 --> 01:10:51.598

That is a textbook coercive

01:10:51.638 --> 01:10:52.838

control manipulation,

01:10:52.918 --> 01:10:54.199

psychological warfare,

01:10:54.259 --> 01:10:55.819

predatory sales tactic,

01:10:56.800 --> 01:10:59.301

cult-like recruiting

01:10:59.361 --> 01:11:02.522

measures that you can check.

01:11:02.662 --> 01:11:06.303

I mean, before so much of Joseph Smith,

01:11:07.244 --> 01:11:08.624

he could get away with saying, yeah,

01:11:08.664 --> 01:11:09.785

this papyrus is from

01:11:13.270 --> 01:11:15.692

of you know abraham and and

01:11:15.732 --> 01:11:16.593

no one could fact check

01:11:16.633 --> 01:11:17.573

well now we have all the

01:11:17.713 --> 01:11:18.794

now we have all the tools

01:11:19.014 --> 01:11:21.336

and i i just it must

01:11:21.376 --> 01:11:23.198

produce so much mental

01:11:23.258 --> 01:11:24.459

gymnastics for those of

01:11:24.639 --> 01:11:26.800

continued believing members

01:11:26.860 --> 01:11:28.662

and and that's that's got

01:11:28.682 --> 01:11:29.703

to be really really tough

01:11:29.903 --> 01:11:31.424

because it's all right here

01:11:32.084 --> 01:11:33.486

yeah it's all very obvious

01:11:34.406 --> 01:11:36.748

these are verified

01:11:37.689 --> 01:11:38.990

emotional manipulative

01:11:39.290 --> 01:11:41.812

abusive predatory tactics

01:11:43.585 --> 01:11:43.825

Yeah.

01:11:43.845 --> 01:11:45.207

When I'm thinking about just

01:11:45.247 --> 01:11:46.689

the process of, you know,

01:11:46.729 --> 01:11:51.354

going into to teach someone in their home,

01:11:51.394 --> 01:11:52.375

just even looking at it

01:11:52.395 --> 01:11:53.376

from that standpoint.

01:11:53.416 --> 01:11:53.656

Right.

01:11:53.716 --> 01:11:57.401

Like most people don't just

01:11:57.441 --> 01:11:58.382

call up the missionaries

01:11:58.402 --> 01:11:59.603

and invite them to come over.

01:11:59.723 --> 01:11:59.943

Right.

01:12:00.023 --> 01:12:01.105

Most of the time they're

01:12:01.205 --> 01:12:02.666

they're tracked it out on the street.

01:12:03.447 --> 01:12:03.987

Um,

01:12:04.007 --> 01:12:05.708

my daughter talked on her mission about

01:12:05.808 --> 01:12:06.109

how,

01:12:06.169 --> 01:12:07.589

when they didn't have anybody to teach,

01:12:07.609 --> 01:12:08.570

they would just go into the

01:12:08.610 --> 01:12:10.431

center of the town and they

01:12:10.471 --> 01:12:11.891

would just start talking to

01:12:11.932 --> 01:12:13.532

people on the street and they would just,

01:12:14.133 --> 01:12:16.674

you know, try to create a conversation,

01:12:16.754 --> 01:12:17.915

try to create a way to

01:12:17.975 --> 01:12:20.076

steer the topic towards, you know,

01:12:20.136 --> 01:12:20.536

the church,

01:12:20.576 --> 01:12:21.697

the fact that they're missionaries,

01:12:21.717 --> 01:12:22.277

they're out here.

01:12:22.357 --> 01:12:23.718

So, um,

01:12:24.998 --> 01:12:25.298

You know,

01:12:25.438 --> 01:12:27.699

and then if you do get invited

01:12:27.759 --> 01:12:28.479

into their home,

01:12:28.699 --> 01:12:29.659

you're coming into their

01:12:29.719 --> 01:12:31.620

home and you're trying to

01:12:31.700 --> 01:12:33.080

create a situation where

01:12:33.120 --> 01:12:35.881

they can feel some kind of

01:12:35.901 --> 01:12:37.202

an emotional reaction to

01:12:37.222 --> 01:12:38.362

the story that you're telling.

01:12:38.842 --> 01:12:39.862

You're trying to basically

01:12:39.982 --> 01:12:41.823

exploit their life situation of like,

01:12:41.963 --> 01:12:44.024

wouldn't you like to see so and so again,

01:12:44.184 --> 01:12:44.464

you know,

01:12:44.504 --> 01:12:46.244

since they've passed on before you and,

01:12:46.984 --> 01:12:47.204

you know,

01:12:47.264 --> 01:12:48.465

wouldn't you like to know what...

01:12:49.405 --> 01:12:51.466

God has in store for you and your family,

01:12:51.646 --> 01:12:52.486

all of those kinds of

01:12:52.646 --> 01:12:54.327

emotional manipulation tactics.

01:12:54.427 --> 01:12:59.068

And then it's sort of like predatory sales,

01:12:59.168 --> 01:12:59.388

right?

01:12:59.408 --> 01:13:00.888

Because you're endlessly

01:13:00.928 --> 01:13:03.409

following up and their

01:13:03.469 --> 01:13:05.170

names get written down in

01:13:05.590 --> 01:13:08.391

the book that the

01:13:08.411 --> 01:13:10.711

missionaries all pass on that say like,

01:13:11.312 --> 01:13:12.912

we visited this person on this day,

01:13:12.952 --> 01:13:14.072

they were really responsive

01:13:14.092 --> 01:13:15.593

to this lesson, but then they stopped

01:13:16.353 --> 01:13:18.294

responding so you know they

01:13:18.514 --> 01:13:19.274

want to follow up in

01:13:19.314 --> 01:13:20.595

perpetuity basically you're

01:13:20.735 --> 01:13:21.815

you never get off of that

01:13:21.895 --> 01:13:24.036

list unless you ask them to

01:13:24.076 --> 01:13:25.036

remove your name from the

01:13:25.076 --> 01:13:26.357

list and even then i kind

01:13:26.397 --> 01:13:27.277

of doubt so i'm i'm

01:13:27.397 --> 01:13:28.737

interested to hear how all

01:13:28.757 --> 01:13:30.418

of that works but i don't

01:13:30.438 --> 01:13:31.899

want to get too far down

01:13:31.939 --> 01:13:32.979

the road before we talk

01:13:32.999 --> 01:13:35.540

about your own experiences so um

01:13:37.363 --> 01:13:39.224

So we talked a little bit about, you know,

01:13:39.864 --> 01:13:41.405

they teach you how to find people.

01:13:41.645 --> 01:13:42.706

They teach you this

01:13:42.966 --> 01:13:44.627

elevation emotion tactic.

01:13:44.687 --> 01:13:45.587

I guess what I'm most

01:13:45.667 --> 01:13:47.308

interested in is when

01:13:47.328 --> 01:13:49.690

you're there in the MTC and

01:13:49.710 --> 01:13:51.751

they're teaching you how to

01:13:51.791 --> 01:13:52.711

connect with people.

01:13:52.751 --> 01:13:54.592

Can we go through that process of like,

01:13:54.652 --> 01:13:56.413

now that you have found a

01:13:56.473 --> 01:13:58.354

person who's vulnerable

01:13:58.394 --> 01:13:59.215

because they're either

01:14:00.255 --> 01:14:01.155

you know low income and

01:14:01.175 --> 01:14:03.136

they're looking for help or

01:14:03.336 --> 01:14:04.737

they have just lost a loved

01:14:04.857 --> 01:14:05.657

one so they're most

01:14:05.797 --> 01:14:07.137

emotionally vulnerable what

01:14:07.157 --> 01:14:08.578

are some of the next steps

01:14:08.598 --> 01:14:09.638

in the process that they

01:14:09.678 --> 01:14:12.259

teach you well you brought

01:14:12.299 --> 01:14:13.580

up a couple of them um

01:14:13.660 --> 01:14:15.800

those those those leading

01:14:15.860 --> 01:14:18.021

questions um and then

01:14:18.041 --> 01:14:20.582

you're very encouraged to

01:14:21.022 --> 01:14:22.683

bear your testimony or

01:14:22.743 --> 01:14:24.383

share a personal story or

01:14:24.663 --> 01:14:26.464

use your own vulnerability

01:14:27.140 --> 01:14:28.841

to invite an emotive

01:14:29.682 --> 01:14:32.103

situation right where you

01:14:32.123 --> 01:14:34.605

know if it was very very

01:14:34.665 --> 01:14:36.286

encouraged or you know

01:14:36.306 --> 01:14:38.727

coached and encouraged like

01:14:38.768 --> 01:14:40.048

pat on the head if you get

01:14:40.108 --> 01:14:41.529

emotional when you're

01:14:41.549 --> 01:14:44.231

teaching if you start to

01:14:44.291 --> 01:14:47.993

cry even it wasn't like hey

01:14:48.033 --> 01:14:50.075

why are you crying where

01:14:50.095 --> 01:14:52.857

does that come from it

01:14:52.897 --> 01:14:56.579

became taught it became ingrained that

01:14:57.485 --> 01:15:00.007

And those that could wield

01:15:00.387 --> 01:15:02.308

that power did better.

01:15:02.948 --> 01:15:03.909

Those that could- Like the

01:15:03.969 --> 01:15:06.070

crying on demand sort of as

01:15:06.090 --> 01:15:06.931

you're bearing your

01:15:07.211 --> 01:15:09.132

testimony or sharing story.

01:15:09.612 --> 01:15:09.892

Yeah,

01:15:10.453 --> 01:15:13.935

it's like a really good salesman who

01:15:13.995 --> 01:15:16.196

has that personality too.

01:15:16.676 --> 01:15:19.318

But in this, it's emotional manipulation.

01:15:19.418 --> 01:15:22.259

It's being, telling a personal story,

01:15:22.600 --> 01:15:23.560

you know, about,

01:15:23.660 --> 01:15:24.941

and they would encourage that, like,

01:15:25.923 --> 01:15:26.143

You know,

01:15:26.163 --> 01:15:27.304

if you're feeling a little shaky

01:15:27.384 --> 01:15:28.484

on this lesson,

01:15:29.185 --> 01:15:30.765

think of a personal story

01:15:30.805 --> 01:15:32.166

where the church or this

01:15:32.246 --> 01:15:33.967

type of thing helped you or

01:15:33.987 --> 01:15:36.308

a family member and really

01:15:36.348 --> 01:15:37.809

dive into that and use.

01:15:38.169 --> 01:15:39.089

They don't say this.

01:15:39.169 --> 01:15:40.370

They don't say use your own

01:15:41.670 --> 01:15:43.671

vulnerability as a weapon.

01:15:43.791 --> 01:15:46.453

It's just it's always inviting the spirit.

01:15:46.513 --> 01:15:48.173

It's always feeling the spirit.

01:15:49.014 --> 01:15:51.275

And then they monopolize that.

01:15:51.555 --> 01:15:53.437

feeling to associate that

01:15:53.477 --> 01:15:54.557

what we're saying is true.

01:15:55.318 --> 01:15:56.639

And you know this, I mean,

01:15:56.659 --> 01:15:58.340

the church lives off of that,

01:15:58.501 --> 01:16:00.082

that this good feeling you

01:16:00.122 --> 01:16:01.723

get proves that we're right.

01:16:02.264 --> 01:16:03.484

And you have to agree with

01:16:03.565 --> 01:16:04.685

us now because you felt

01:16:04.725 --> 01:16:06.587

something regardless if I

01:16:06.627 --> 01:16:08.929

tried to administer it or

01:16:09.189 --> 01:16:10.950

come up with it on my own.

01:16:11.611 --> 01:16:12.852

And if you've been raised in

01:16:12.892 --> 01:16:14.954

the church and you know,

01:16:15.154 --> 01:16:16.435

it goes back to maybe the

01:16:16.475 --> 01:16:17.816

first time you felt the spirit.

01:16:17.896 --> 01:16:18.636

I remember mine.

01:16:18.716 --> 01:16:20.538

I was at EFY, which is a

01:16:21.508 --> 01:16:23.770

a youth camp and, you know,

01:16:23.910 --> 01:16:25.370

you have two thousand kids

01:16:25.410 --> 01:16:28.032

and we're all singing hymns outside.

01:16:28.692 --> 01:16:30.253

And, you know, when you sing,

01:16:30.373 --> 01:16:31.574

there's a frequency there

01:16:31.594 --> 01:16:33.375

that brings in a higher

01:16:33.415 --> 01:16:35.176

frequency and it feels good.

01:16:36.276 --> 01:16:37.117

You start

01:16:37.629 --> 01:16:37.929

you know,

01:16:38.129 --> 01:16:40.271

maybe depending on your emotional

01:16:40.311 --> 01:16:41.892

availability, you know,

01:16:41.912 --> 01:16:43.053

I started to almost cry

01:16:43.073 --> 01:16:43.993

because I've never felt

01:16:44.034 --> 01:16:44.794

something like that.

01:16:44.934 --> 01:16:45.975

And that sticks with you.

01:16:46.315 --> 01:16:47.156

That sticks with you.

01:16:47.196 --> 01:16:48.937

And that tells you this is true.

01:16:48.957 --> 01:16:51.859

And I've never felt anything like this.

01:16:51.939 --> 01:16:53.360

Therefore, this must be true.

01:16:53.420 --> 01:16:54.901

And I want others to feel

01:16:54.941 --> 01:16:55.982

this when it's really just,

01:16:57.270 --> 01:16:58.471

a community of people

01:16:58.531 --> 01:16:59.893

singing which you could

01:16:59.933 --> 01:17:00.873

sing anything you could

01:17:00.913 --> 01:17:02.455

sing les mis you could sing

01:17:02.955 --> 01:17:04.656

a hip-hop song together and

01:17:04.716 --> 01:17:05.677

you would feel something

01:17:05.737 --> 01:17:07.759

because that's that's the human condition

01:17:08.844 --> 01:17:09.524

Yeah, exactly.

01:17:09.584 --> 01:17:10.864

So one of the first things

01:17:10.904 --> 01:17:11.925

that the missionaries will

01:17:11.965 --> 01:17:13.685

teach people is that all

01:17:13.745 --> 01:17:15.245

good feelings come from God.

01:17:15.786 --> 01:17:16.906

And if you're feeling good,

01:17:16.926 --> 01:17:17.746

you're feeling happy,

01:17:17.766 --> 01:17:18.786

you're feeling peaceful,

01:17:18.846 --> 01:17:21.547

that's God's way of telling

01:17:21.567 --> 01:17:22.507

you that you're doing the

01:17:22.547 --> 01:17:24.188

right thing or you're in the right place.

01:17:24.688 --> 01:17:26.828

And if you feel bad feelings,

01:17:26.848 --> 01:17:28.068

that that comes from the devil,

01:17:28.168 --> 01:17:29.429

and that's the devil trying

01:17:29.489 --> 01:17:31.589

to keep you from learning

01:17:31.629 --> 01:17:32.930

things about God or keep

01:17:32.950 --> 01:17:34.270

you from doing the right things.

01:17:35.050 --> 01:17:37.351

And so it becomes this

01:17:37.491 --> 01:17:39.492

elevation emotion sort of

01:17:39.992 --> 01:17:42.193

manipulation where, you know,

01:17:42.693 --> 01:17:43.693

the missionaries are there.

01:17:43.713 --> 01:17:44.714

They're telling you that if

01:17:44.754 --> 01:17:46.614

you have any good feeling at all,

01:17:46.694 --> 01:17:47.815

that's confirmation from

01:17:47.875 --> 01:17:49.315

God that what we're saying is true.

01:17:49.416 --> 01:17:50.776

It's not us teaching you.

01:17:50.876 --> 01:17:52.677

It's the Holy Spirit teaching you.

01:17:53.877 --> 01:17:56.679

And so then you share a personal story,

01:17:56.699 --> 01:17:58.140

you get emotional, you cry.

01:17:58.580 --> 01:18:01.242

And if I'm receiving this

01:18:01.282 --> 01:18:01.882

message from the

01:18:01.902 --> 01:18:02.863

missionaries and I'm an

01:18:02.903 --> 01:18:04.104

empathic human being,

01:18:04.684 --> 01:18:05.765

when someone else cries,

01:18:05.805 --> 01:18:07.126

it makes me emotional too,

01:18:07.166 --> 01:18:09.047

because I feel the pain

01:18:09.067 --> 01:18:10.228

that they're feeling and I

01:18:10.268 --> 01:18:12.149

feel sad that they're upset

01:18:12.629 --> 01:18:14.370

and I want to comfort them.

01:18:14.531 --> 01:18:16.712

And so I would get that feeling too,

01:18:17.252 --> 01:18:18.193

but the missionaries would

01:18:18.233 --> 01:18:19.254

tell me the reason you're

01:18:19.274 --> 01:18:20.434

feeling emotional and

01:18:20.454 --> 01:18:22.796

you're feeling that warm feeling is

01:18:23.116 --> 01:18:24.537

is because that's the holy

01:18:24.557 --> 01:18:25.717

ghost teaching you that

01:18:25.757 --> 01:18:28.398

what we're saying is true

01:18:28.498 --> 01:18:30.539

yes exactly so much of

01:18:31.180 --> 01:18:33.020

teaching was yes it was

01:18:33.040 --> 01:18:34.921

about the content right

01:18:35.001 --> 01:18:35.822

because you had to have

01:18:35.882 --> 01:18:37.462

somewhat of them agreeing

01:18:37.482 --> 01:18:38.703

with you and i will say

01:18:39.083 --> 01:18:40.424

that how preach my gospel

01:18:40.584 --> 01:18:42.084

they set up the lessons

01:18:42.124 --> 01:18:43.505

with kind of leading like

01:18:43.545 --> 01:18:44.766

okay let's let's first

01:18:44.826 --> 01:18:46.746

agree on this right you

01:18:46.766 --> 01:18:48.567

believe that okay so then

01:18:48.627 --> 01:18:49.908

you you've seen how this

01:18:49.948 --> 01:18:52.549

happened right that makes sense then this

01:18:53.648 --> 01:18:54.849

And they did a really good

01:18:54.889 --> 01:18:57.570

job of making this logical

01:18:57.910 --> 01:18:59.611

as well as spiritual.

01:18:59.731 --> 01:19:02.012

But you're very much encouraged every time,

01:19:02.132 --> 01:19:03.493

if I can make this person

01:19:03.533 --> 01:19:05.354

feel good and feel emotional,

01:19:05.654 --> 01:19:06.394

that's a win,

01:19:06.754 --> 01:19:08.055

because then we can use that

01:19:08.615 --> 01:19:10.296

like exactly what you just said.

01:19:10.856 --> 01:19:12.357

Everything good comes from God,

01:19:12.377 --> 01:19:13.497

and that's a witness of the

01:19:13.537 --> 01:19:15.198

Spirit testifying to you

01:19:15.919 --> 01:19:16.779

that this is true.

01:19:17.439 --> 01:19:18.400

And you've got to...

01:19:19.624 --> 01:19:22.345

a buttoned up shirt and tie, you know,

01:19:22.465 --> 01:19:24.245

clear cut, bright eyed,

01:19:24.305 --> 01:19:25.346

bushy tailed little

01:19:25.386 --> 01:19:26.946

nineteen year old who cries

01:19:27.006 --> 01:19:27.686

in front of you about

01:19:27.726 --> 01:19:29.927

something they believe they believe.

01:19:31.587 --> 01:19:32.968

That's that's powerful.

01:19:33.428 --> 01:19:33.708

You know,

01:19:33.748 --> 01:19:35.508

that's an emotional little

01:19:36.129 --> 01:19:37.769

adventure that you weren't

01:19:37.809 --> 01:19:39.009

planning on when you have

01:19:39.189 --> 01:19:40.750

these kids knock on your door.

01:19:41.070 --> 01:19:42.350

But we're trained to get

01:19:42.390 --> 01:19:44.131

into that mode very quickly.

01:19:44.151 --> 01:19:44.231

Yeah.

01:19:46.492 --> 01:19:47.672

Yeah.

01:19:47.732 --> 01:19:47.932

So

01:19:49.515 --> 01:19:53.557

I guess the next thing would be, you know,

01:19:54.017 --> 01:19:54.838

take me through.

01:19:54.918 --> 01:19:57.359

So you did mention that in

01:19:57.379 --> 01:19:58.840

the lesson that the

01:19:58.880 --> 01:19:59.900

missionaries will get you

01:19:59.920 --> 01:20:01.481

to agree to something first.

01:20:01.521 --> 01:20:03.402

Let's find some common ground first.

01:20:03.802 --> 01:20:04.703

Right, right.

01:20:04.883 --> 01:20:06.784

And can you give an example of that?

01:20:07.664 --> 01:20:08.204

Absolutely.

01:20:08.264 --> 01:20:10.766

So first lesson, they actually,

01:20:11.306 --> 01:20:12.166

in Preach My Gospel,

01:20:12.186 --> 01:20:13.427

they go with the kind of,

01:20:14.674 --> 01:20:17.615

they talk about God loves us, right?

01:20:17.855 --> 01:20:18.915

Heavenly Father loves us.

01:20:19.575 --> 01:20:20.695

God loves his children.

01:20:20.995 --> 01:20:22.276

And because of that,

01:20:22.416 --> 01:20:26.576

he sent prophets like Noah, Isaac,

01:20:26.716 --> 01:20:31.257

Abraham, even Adam to preach his gospel.

01:20:31.838 --> 01:20:34.378

He gave them the insight and

01:20:34.398 --> 01:20:36.839

the information to then tell us his plan,

01:20:37.319 --> 01:20:37.739

right?

01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:38.679

And that's

01:20:39.279 --> 01:20:40.040

who's going to argue with

01:20:40.060 --> 01:20:41.622

that you know if you don't

01:20:41.742 --> 01:20:43.043

really know much you're

01:20:43.063 --> 01:20:44.145

going to say yeah yeah i

01:20:44.165 --> 01:20:45.366

know i've heard of noah and

01:20:45.406 --> 01:20:46.828

he was a prophet yeah and i

01:20:46.868 --> 01:20:49.571

guess god did give him you

01:20:49.591 --> 01:20:51.132

know the information to

01:20:51.493 --> 01:20:52.774

teach his people how to

01:20:52.834 --> 01:20:54.396

live right and how to be

01:20:54.436 --> 01:20:55.457

happy and that's how god

01:20:55.497 --> 01:20:57.419

communicates with us is

01:20:57.459 --> 01:21:00.222

through a prophet with that authority

01:21:02.084 --> 01:21:05.046

to administer all of His blessings upon us,

01:21:05.287 --> 01:21:05.647

right?

01:21:06.287 --> 01:21:07.908

And we see that throughout the Bible,

01:21:08.169 --> 01:21:09.910

right?

01:21:10.570 --> 01:21:11.771

But we also see at times in

01:21:11.791 --> 01:21:14.313

the Bible where He removed that power,

01:21:15.033 --> 01:21:15.233

right?

01:21:15.273 --> 01:21:16.194

When the people were growing

01:21:16.234 --> 01:21:17.595

very wicked and they

01:21:17.635 --> 01:21:21.357

weren't abiding by what God was saying,

01:21:22.238 --> 01:21:23.499

He removed that power for a

01:21:23.559 --> 01:21:24.359

time and then He would

01:21:24.399 --> 01:21:26.281

bestow it back to a new prophet, etc.,

01:21:27.516 --> 01:21:29.399

Yeah, so I'm thinking of like Moses,

01:21:29.419 --> 01:21:31.802

for example, who, you know,