Existential Fears and No Nonsense Spirituality with Britt Hartley

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Hello, beautiful humans.

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Welcome to The Midlife Revolution.

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I'm your host, Megan Conner.

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And today I am joined by the

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inimitable and

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revolutionary Britt Hartley.

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Britt, thanks for being with us today.

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My pleasure.

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Now you can find Britt all

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over the internet.

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She recently published a

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book called No Nonsense Spirituality,

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which I highly recommend

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for anybody who is

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questioning religion or

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coming out of religion.

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It's got some wonderful

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tools in there and I've

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gone back and reread

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sections of it several

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times just to sort of let

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it soak into my brain.

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So I love your book.

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Britt's also on TikTok.

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And where I first found you,

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I think I told you already,

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is on your Mormon Stories

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episode that aired about

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seven months ago.

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And I think it was just a

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couple of months before

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that that I was sort of in

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a nihilistic space.

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And then I found your video

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on Mormon Stories.

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And so much of it resonated

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with me because I'd been

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through some of the same things.

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And it was the beginning of

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me having language for what

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I was going through spiritually.

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And so I highly recommend that video.

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I'm going to put that link

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in the show notes as well.

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And then there are a couple

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of more videos on Mormon

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stories and actually all

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over the podcasting

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universe about your book

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and things like that.

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So everybody can learn

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everything they want to

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know about Brit from that.

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So Brit, I just want to ask you,

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what would you like to

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share with people today?

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What's on your mind?

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Hmm, that's a good question.

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Recently,

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I guess I've been wrestling with

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this idea of how much truth

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is good for us.

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I've kind of been exploring

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that idea lately.

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So for those who don't know me,

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I had a big just

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deconstruction journey that

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lasted about a decade by

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the time I had really

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deconstructed and ended up

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in a place like you said

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called nihilism where

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I couldn't really make sense of things.

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I didn't have a sense of my

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own meaning and purpose.

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I didn't have tools to deal

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with things like death and suffering.

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And life just got really,

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really dark really fast for me.

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then since then, you know,

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a lot of my work has been

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finding tools for that space,

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not just for me, but also now for others.

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But something that I've been

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really wrestling with is

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this idea that Nietzsche talks about,

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which is that we have art

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because if we just had truth,

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it would kill us, something like that.

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And I've been really

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thinking about some of

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these harsh truths that we

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have to face as humans and

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how much of that we can

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psychologically handle and

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how much we can expect

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people to be able to

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psychologically handle and

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how many tools we actually

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really have for people to

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psychologically handle these things.

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So those are the kinds of

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Deep, dark,

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deep end of the pool things

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that I like to think about.

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For me, honesty about hard, honest,

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dark places of the human experience,

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even though they're hard things.

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just being honest and

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talking about those things

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just brings me a lot of joy

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in some paradoxical way

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because it just feels real to me.

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It feels real to me to like

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really get at the base

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level of what's going on

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with our human experience.

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Yeah,

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I love that and it resonates so much

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with me.

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I saw a video that you

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posted on TikTok about how

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much truth is good for us

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as human beings and me

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having a very strong part

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of myself that is a truth

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teller and that sort of

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wants to tell all the truth.

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I want it to be measured too

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with some compassion.

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And that's one of the

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reasons I wanted to have

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this conversation with you

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because I sometimes get

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myself into trouble

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telling too much truth.

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And by trouble, I mean good trouble,

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the kind of John Lewis trouble that,

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you know,

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it's eye opening for some people.

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And when I was going through

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sort of my journey with my family,

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I felt like I had been lied

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to for so much of my life,

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that I did not want to be

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lied to anymore about anything.

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And that's why I ended up

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where I ended up because I

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wanted to investigate all

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of these hard questions myself,

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and come up with some answers.

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But

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I also think it can be dangerous.

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And I know you know some about that.

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So can you talk about how

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that's dangerous for us as human beings?

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Sure.

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So I'll give an example.

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So for example,

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when we look at the free will question,

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now I can't know for sure.

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So when I say truth, I mean,

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this is the best that I've figured out.

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I'm not claiming really

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anything about ultimate reality anymore.

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I don't even know if we're

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interacting with ultimate reality.

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I more mean just this is the

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answer to the question as

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best I've been able to kind

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of put it together.

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So when you look at the

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question of free will,

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how I see it based on kind

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of really studying it and

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the neuroscience and Robert

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Sapolsky and

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philosophically and the physics of it,

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I can't see a way where we

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have something like free will.

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Now,

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what can happen to us psychologically

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if we really take in a

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harsh truth like that,

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that we do not have as much

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free will as we think that we do,

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and we're more or less kind of doing a

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cause and effect kind of situation.

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And if we were to rewind time,

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we would just kind of still

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end up here having this conversation.

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It can be really

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psychologically disorienting for people.

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People can start to feel

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like they're a robot.

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People can start to feel

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like they don't have any control.

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We've also seen studies

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where you can move people

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through the arguments that

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they don't have free will and

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And we can watch that their

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morality will go down.

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We can also watch that their

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motivation will go down.

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This is the one thing that

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Robert Sapolsky is really

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worried about with telling

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people that they don't have free will.

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He thinks we can kind of

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figure out the justice system.

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We can redefine society.

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But one thing that we can't

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figure out yet is that when

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people really accept that

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they don't have free will,

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they tend to not have the motivation,

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for example, to become a brain surgeon.

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Because if you become a brain surgeon,

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you spend 15 years in school,

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you kind of have to have

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this belief that you're a

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self and that you're smart

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and you deserve this amount

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of money and you're going

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to put in this work and you did it.

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And there's a lot of kind of

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self-driven kind of things

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going on in your brain to

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get you to put in the work

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to become a brain surgeon.

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Now,

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if you take all of that away by saying,

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actually,

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the self is an illusion and we

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don't have free will,

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people tend to not be as

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motivated to go into the

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kind of work that you'd

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need to do to be a brain surgeon.

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And so these are the things

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that I think about.

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These are

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These are harsh truths about

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God or the nature of

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reality or the self or free will,

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where maybe like for you and I,

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we once had a nice cushy

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answer to some of these

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questions that made us feel

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really nice and warm and

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fuzzy that we knew who we

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were and we knew what we

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were here to do and we know

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what's going to happen after we die.

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And it's a nice security blanket.

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And if you have an identity

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as a truth seeker,

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which is one of many core

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values you can have,

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but it's especially common

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in Mormonism where we're

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really taught to seek after the truth.

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then it can be really

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disorienting when you're

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going after these questions

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and finding either no

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answer or really hard to take answers,

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not nice, warm, fuzzy answers.

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And so when that happens,

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it becomes this situation

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of how much truth is good for you?

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How much truth can we handle?

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Is it better?

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I mean,

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there's conversations now where is

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it better to live in the Truman Show?

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Is it better?

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for a certain percentage of

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humanity to believe in a

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God because it's a better

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shortcut to these things of

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well-being than to have to

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build it on your own.

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These are really tough questions.

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And I think the best that we

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can do in this space,

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and I share this with you,

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is that I don't want,

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because of my past as a Mormon,

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I don't want to live in a delusion,

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even one that I choose

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because it feels nice.

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Whatever is reality,

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I want to face it because

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I've been bamboozled before

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and I remember what that

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felt like and I don't want

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to do that again.

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Whatever is real,

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whatever that harsh truth is,

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I want to be able to face it.

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But in order to do that,

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we need more tools than we

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currently have.

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We need a lot of tools to

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face our existential fears,

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fear of meaninglessness,

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fear of isolation, fear of freedom.

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Fear of death.

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We don't just stumble upon those tools.

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We need tools to help us

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psychologically handle

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truths that we weren't meant to handle.

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There's a reason

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evolutionarily that we have

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the illusion of a self.

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There's a reason

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evolutionarily that we

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created stories to make us

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not afraid of death.

00:09:03.401 --> 00:09:04.883

because we function better with those

00:09:04.923 --> 00:09:05.363

stories.

00:09:05.764 --> 00:09:06.664

And so if we're going to cut

00:09:06.724 --> 00:09:07.804

against that grain, um,

00:09:07.910 --> 00:09:09.183

and face some of these harsh,

00:09:09.523 --> 00:09:10.724

harsh truths about reality,

00:09:11.124 --> 00:09:12.204

we need better tools.

00:09:12.524 --> 00:09:14.344

And, and that's kind of what I've,

00:09:14.824 --> 00:09:16.145

I've dedicated, you know,

00:09:16.185 --> 00:09:19.025

my work to now is those tools for myself.

00:09:19.105 --> 00:09:19.945

Cause I still need those

00:09:19.985 --> 00:09:21.706

tools and also helping

00:09:21.766 --> 00:09:22.706

others in that space,

00:09:22.886 --> 00:09:24.186

find tools to be able to

00:09:24.526 --> 00:09:26.487

face those harsh truths and

00:09:26.547 --> 00:09:27.947

actually have those enemies

00:09:28.027 --> 00:09:28.767

become friends.

00:09:29.721 --> 00:09:30.041

Yeah,

00:09:30.161 --> 00:09:31.803

and it's interesting you talk about

00:09:32.383 --> 00:09:33.684

the existential fears.

00:09:33.784 --> 00:09:34.165

Obviously,

00:09:34.505 --> 00:09:35.706

we don't have enough time in the

00:09:35.786 --> 00:09:37.067

universe to talk about all

00:09:37.087 --> 00:09:37.907

of them thoroughly.

00:09:38.488 --> 00:09:40.309

But I do think that some

00:09:40.349 --> 00:09:41.470

people may not really

00:09:41.550 --> 00:09:43.071

understand what existential

00:09:43.132 --> 00:09:44.833

fear is or the definition of that.

00:09:45.233 --> 00:09:46.434

So maybe we can just go

00:09:46.614 --> 00:09:47.555

through each of them like

00:09:47.635 --> 00:09:49.256

really briefly and just say

00:09:49.276 --> 00:09:50.537

a little blurb about what

00:09:50.637 --> 00:09:51.678

each of those fears are.

00:09:53.180 --> 00:09:53.480

Sure.

00:09:53.560 --> 00:09:57.462

So I'm quoting the work of Irvin Yalom,

00:09:57.603 --> 00:09:59.243

who's a Buddhist

00:09:59.264 --> 00:10:00.964

psychoanalyst who was

00:10:01.045 --> 00:10:02.745

really noticing that humans

00:10:02.786 --> 00:10:04.046

had these similar fears,

00:10:04.126 --> 00:10:06.328

and he did a lot of research on it.

00:10:06.828 --> 00:10:08.249

The first one is fear of death,

00:10:08.349 --> 00:10:09.469

and this one has been the

00:10:10.050 --> 00:10:11.490

most well-documented,

00:10:11.550 --> 00:10:13.672

especially with terror management studies,

00:10:13.772 --> 00:10:13.932

which...

00:10:14.552 --> 00:10:16.053

are studies that show how

00:10:16.133 --> 00:10:17.594

much of our subconscious,

00:10:18.074 --> 00:10:19.055

sometimes consciously,

00:10:19.115 --> 00:10:20.716

but a lot of our subconscious brain,

00:10:21.276 --> 00:10:23.097

is really working on

00:10:23.877 --> 00:10:24.998

dealing with the fact that

00:10:25.038 --> 00:10:26.139

we're going to die and

00:10:26.179 --> 00:10:27.319

dealing with the fact that

00:10:27.359 --> 00:10:28.620

people around us are going to die.

00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:31.281

And finding really creative

00:10:31.321 --> 00:10:33.242

and cute ways to either

00:10:33.423 --> 00:10:35.043

delude ourselves from it or

00:10:35.123 --> 00:10:36.204

be able to handle it or

00:10:36.264 --> 00:10:38.705

have stories to be able to handle it.

00:10:38.725 --> 00:10:41.107

Or we have studies that show that if you

00:10:42.067 --> 00:10:44.389

remind judges that they're

00:10:44.409 --> 00:10:45.630

going to die and you kind

00:10:45.690 --> 00:10:46.570

of run them through a

00:10:46.671 --> 00:10:48.332

mortality exercise before

00:10:48.372 --> 00:10:50.053

they have their their docket of cases,

00:10:50.473 --> 00:10:51.534

that they tend to be more

00:10:51.614 --> 00:10:53.035

harsh in their

00:10:53.936 --> 00:10:57.538

pronouncements because they

00:10:57.999 --> 00:11:00.460

subconsciously they are

00:11:00.500 --> 00:11:02.121

attaching themselves to the law,

00:11:02.402 --> 00:11:03.903

that the law is bigger than them.

00:11:04.863 --> 00:11:06.664

And then the law then is

00:11:06.724 --> 00:11:07.865

something bigger than them

00:11:08.065 --> 00:11:09.206

that will outlive them.

00:11:09.486 --> 00:11:11.487

So by attaching themselves to the law,

00:11:11.987 --> 00:11:13.028

it's actually a way that we

00:11:13.088 --> 00:11:14.509

subconsciously cheat death

00:11:14.569 --> 00:11:15.449

because we're a part of

00:11:15.489 --> 00:11:16.690

something that's bigger than us.

00:11:17.731 --> 00:11:20.272

So we usually, you know,

00:11:20.292 --> 00:11:21.933

we have two ways to deal with death.

00:11:22.013 --> 00:11:23.014

We either find a nice

00:11:23.074 --> 00:11:24.334

bedtime story that makes us

00:11:24.374 --> 00:11:26.195

feel better about it, which is kind of,

00:11:26.696 --> 00:11:27.476

you know, a drug.

00:11:27.876 --> 00:11:29.217

You and I have both been to

00:11:29.237 --> 00:11:30.658

Mormon funerals where we

00:11:31.118 --> 00:11:32.359

sing the same songs and we

00:11:32.379 --> 00:11:33.540

tell the same story and we

00:11:33.580 --> 00:11:34.281

kind of take this

00:11:34.381 --> 00:11:35.702

collective drug together

00:11:35.742 --> 00:11:37.203

that grandma's with Jesus now.

00:11:37.744 --> 00:11:38.885

And it's kind of a spiritual

00:11:38.945 --> 00:11:40.566

bypassing way to get through it.

00:11:40.753 --> 00:11:41.914

And the other way to deal

00:11:41.934 --> 00:11:43.375

with death is to actually

00:11:43.595 --> 00:11:45.557

face it and to actually sit

00:11:45.657 --> 00:11:47.158

with the fact that you're going to die.

00:11:47.619 --> 00:11:48.380

It's scary.

00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:50.101

You kind of almost die in

00:11:50.141 --> 00:11:51.802

that moment when you truly face it.

00:11:52.523 --> 00:11:53.403

And then there are hidden

00:11:53.463 --> 00:11:54.384

benefits through going

00:11:54.424 --> 00:11:55.164

through that journey.

00:11:55.184 --> 00:11:56.765

You become a lot more grateful.

00:11:56.825 --> 00:11:58.285

You become a lot more focused.

00:11:58.325 --> 00:11:59.646

You become a lot more authentic.

00:11:59.686 --> 00:12:01.692

You become a lot more compassionate.

00:12:01.692 --> 00:12:02.928

would be fear of death.

00:12:02.988 --> 00:12:04.088

And there's lots of tools

00:12:04.228 --> 00:12:05.649

for facing death.

00:12:05.709 --> 00:12:06.969

And there's various things

00:12:07.009 --> 00:12:09.030

that people are afraid of around death.

00:12:09.127 --> 00:12:09.205

So...

00:12:09.886 --> 00:12:12.249

Talking about the Mormon concept,

00:12:12.410 --> 00:12:13.151

and I don't think it's

00:12:13.992 --> 00:12:15.074

unique to Mormonism,

00:12:15.134 --> 00:12:16.256

but one of the things I

00:12:16.296 --> 00:12:17.257

think that is unique to

00:12:17.297 --> 00:12:19.381

Mormonism is that Mormon

00:12:19.421 --> 00:12:20.903

funerals are not generally

00:12:21.103 --> 00:12:22.546

about honoring the person

00:12:23.006 --> 00:12:23.928

who has passed away.

00:12:24.529 --> 00:12:25.790

They're about repeating to

00:12:25.850 --> 00:12:27.251

ourselves the stories that

00:12:27.271 --> 00:12:28.472

we've told ourselves that

00:12:28.532 --> 00:12:30.894

give us comfort about death

00:12:30.954 --> 00:12:31.815

and meaninglessness.

00:12:32.396 --> 00:12:32.676

Yes.

00:12:32.956 --> 00:12:34.617

So I always found that

00:12:35.498 --> 00:12:38.480

really interesting in the

00:12:38.521 --> 00:12:39.401

way that I was like,

00:12:39.461 --> 00:12:40.662

why is it that we don't

00:12:40.822 --> 00:12:42.183

really talk about the person?

00:12:42.244 --> 00:12:43.224

It's about honoring their

00:12:43.264 --> 00:12:44.585

life and celebrating their life.

00:12:45.266 --> 00:12:46.467

I think a lot of it too is

00:12:46.527 --> 00:12:47.708

because there's so much

00:12:47.828 --> 00:12:51.331

focus on the afterlife that we

00:12:52.398 --> 00:12:53.638

We're constantly preparing

00:12:53.678 --> 00:12:54.539

for the afterlife,

00:12:55.059 --> 00:12:56.800

that we cheat ourselves of

00:12:57.160 --> 00:12:58.900

this existence and we

00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:00.161

almost dismiss it as

00:13:00.421 --> 00:13:01.721

unimportant in some ways.

00:13:02.301 --> 00:13:03.222

And we sort of check our

00:13:03.262 --> 00:13:04.522

little boxes and think that

00:13:04.562 --> 00:13:05.583

as long as we're doing that,

00:13:05.643 --> 00:13:06.543

then we're going to have a

00:13:06.583 --> 00:13:07.763

much better afterlife.

00:13:08.404 --> 00:13:09.704

And when I finally left

00:13:09.824 --> 00:13:11.825

Mormonism and deconstructed

00:13:11.865 --> 00:13:13.025

the idea of an afterlife,

00:13:13.205 --> 00:13:15.346

I found that my life here

00:13:15.906 --> 00:13:17.467

had so much more meaning to me.

00:13:18.047 --> 00:13:19.370

And I was so much more able

00:13:19.450 --> 00:13:20.612

to enjoy all of the

00:13:20.672 --> 00:13:22.275

experiences and savor all

00:13:22.315 --> 00:13:23.577

of the experiences because

00:13:23.617 --> 00:13:25.240

I'm not reserving my joy

00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:26.342

for some future time.

00:13:27.374 --> 00:13:28.575

Yeah, that Mormon funeral,

00:13:28.675 --> 00:13:30.256

really at the level of the brain,

00:13:30.496 --> 00:13:31.717

it is acting like a

00:13:31.797 --> 00:13:33.659

collective drug that we

00:13:33.739 --> 00:13:35.701

sing the song and we tell the story.

00:13:36.081 --> 00:13:37.122

We cry a little bit,

00:13:37.182 --> 00:13:38.903

but not too much because

00:13:39.063 --> 00:13:40.285

they're in a better place now.

00:13:40.365 --> 00:13:42.026

And we just keep telling ourselves that.

00:13:42.106 --> 00:13:43.507

So we bypass that grief.

00:13:43.988 --> 00:13:45.549

And it really is acting like

00:13:45.609 --> 00:13:46.730

a communal drug.

00:13:46.930 --> 00:13:48.531

Let's come together and take

00:13:48.572 --> 00:13:49.572

this drug together.

00:13:49.592 --> 00:13:49.933

Right.

00:13:50.673 --> 00:13:52.674

And actually grieving death,

00:13:52.794 --> 00:13:54.815

like it's like you kind of,

00:13:55.615 --> 00:13:58.117

you breezed over that to the good stuff,

00:13:58.157 --> 00:13:59.477

but actually facing that

00:13:59.557 --> 00:14:00.798

someone is gone and you

00:14:00.838 --> 00:14:01.638

don't know if you're ever

00:14:01.678 --> 00:14:02.599

going to see them again.

00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.400

I mean, that's not easy.

00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.081

Like that really crushes you.

00:14:07.301 --> 00:14:08.041

That really,

00:14:08.241 --> 00:14:10.543

and our brain is almost in shock.

00:14:10.583 --> 00:14:11.803

How can someone who I was

00:14:11.883 --> 00:14:14.504

just talking to yesterday truly be gone,

00:14:14.765 --> 00:14:14.925

right?

00:14:14.945 --> 00:14:15.825

Exactly.

00:14:15.965 --> 00:14:18.287

And that grief is harder

00:14:18.327 --> 00:14:19.387

than taking the drug.

00:14:20.208 --> 00:14:21.028

It's going to hurt.

00:14:21.509 --> 00:14:23.110

But the benefit are all

00:14:23.170 --> 00:14:24.871

those benefits that you

00:14:24.891 --> 00:14:27.213

just alluded to so beautifully that,

00:14:27.713 --> 00:14:27.933

you know,

00:14:27.953 --> 00:14:29.754

your life becomes a lot more precious.

00:14:29.995 --> 00:14:31.135

You don't have to kind of

00:14:31.215 --> 00:14:33.277

take that drug or bypass that pain.

00:14:33.337 --> 00:14:34.878

You can actually move through it.

00:14:35.378 --> 00:14:37.199

You can actually put things

00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:38.480

in your life to remember

00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:39.701

that person rather than

00:14:39.761 --> 00:14:41.242

just kind of trying to move on.

00:14:41.390 --> 00:14:42.463

which is what we do with a

00:14:42.523 --> 00:14:43.284

lot of funerals.

00:14:43.324 --> 00:14:45.225

We just kind of try to bypass the grief.

00:14:45.275 --> 00:14:46.426

But really trying to keep

00:14:46.466 --> 00:14:48.107

that person alive by doing

00:14:48.167 --> 00:14:49.268

something that they do or

00:14:49.308 --> 00:14:50.729

continuing a ritual or a

00:14:50.809 --> 00:14:52.210

tradition actually keeps

00:14:52.250 --> 00:14:53.530

them alive in the world in

00:14:53.550 --> 00:14:55.311

a way that's really profound.

00:14:55.972 --> 00:14:58.753

So it is harder to not take that drug,

00:14:59.294 --> 00:15:01.475

but there are more benefits

00:15:01.755 --> 00:15:03.156

in being able to move

00:15:03.236 --> 00:15:04.697

through that human experience.

00:15:04.977 --> 00:15:05.958

But we need tools to go

00:15:05.978 --> 00:15:07.039

through that hard place or

00:15:07.059 --> 00:15:08.940

we're going to shy away

00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.202

from it because it's just it's crushing.

00:15:11.971 --> 00:15:13.312

it's too scary to face

00:15:13.432 --> 00:15:14.392

because we don't really

00:15:14.412 --> 00:15:15.753

know how to process it and

00:15:15.793 --> 00:15:17.514

we don't really know how to move past it.

00:15:17.554 --> 00:15:18.174

So you're right.

00:15:18.214 --> 00:15:19.915

That's our super, super important.

00:15:20.536 --> 00:15:20.836

Okay.

00:15:20.876 --> 00:15:21.816

So what's the next one?

00:15:22.077 --> 00:15:23.337

Next one, fear of freedom,

00:15:23.677 --> 00:15:24.818

which is the one that kind

00:15:24.878 --> 00:15:26.299

of confuses people at first,

00:15:26.379 --> 00:15:28.864

which is the genuine fear that we have,

00:15:28.924 --> 00:15:30.125

that we are responsible for

00:15:30.185 --> 00:15:30.905

our own lives.

00:15:31.605 --> 00:15:33.586

And you would think that we want freedom.

00:15:33.627 --> 00:15:35.087

We give a lot of lip service

00:15:35.147 --> 00:15:36.628

that we want more freedom.

00:15:36.668 --> 00:15:37.709

We want more choices.

00:15:37.789 --> 00:15:38.109

We want

00:15:39.076 --> 00:15:40.217

We want more autonomy.

00:15:40.537 --> 00:15:43.300

But in actuality, in our human nature,

00:15:43.420 --> 00:15:44.681

we actually don't want that

00:15:44.741 --> 00:15:46.582

much because it's scary.

00:15:46.703 --> 00:15:47.603

Because it's scary to

00:15:47.723 --> 00:15:48.724

actually say you are

00:15:48.764 --> 00:15:49.985

responsible for your life

00:15:50.426 --> 00:15:52.628

and you are also capable of

00:15:52.828 --> 00:15:54.289

truly effing your life up.

00:15:54.529 --> 00:15:55.590

Like that is possible.

00:15:55.850 --> 00:15:56.831

And that's really scary.

00:15:57.472 --> 00:15:59.493

So the reality is, you know, we...

00:16:00.474 --> 00:16:01.514

A lot of people say if we

00:16:01.534 --> 00:16:02.735

could just be free of all

00:16:02.755 --> 00:16:03.855

these cults and cult

00:16:03.915 --> 00:16:06.895

leaders and political leaders and gurus,

00:16:07.675 --> 00:16:08.896

then we could have freedom.

00:16:08.956 --> 00:16:09.996

We could be free without

00:16:10.036 --> 00:16:11.256

these dictators running around.

00:16:11.656 --> 00:16:13.217

But the reality is if all of

00:16:13.277 --> 00:16:14.137

them died today,

00:16:14.537 --> 00:16:15.897

we would recreate all of

00:16:15.957 --> 00:16:17.357

them tomorrow because

00:16:17.397 --> 00:16:18.338

there's something really

00:16:18.398 --> 00:16:20.198

alluring to human nature,

00:16:20.218 --> 00:16:23.479

to someone who looks really competent,

00:16:23.579 --> 00:16:24.979

looks like they have their shit together.

00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:25.699

saying,

00:16:25.719 --> 00:16:28.621

I have the 12 steps for your

00:16:28.701 --> 00:16:29.402

perfect life.

00:16:29.642 --> 00:16:31.944

And we go, oh my God, thank you so much.

00:16:32.724 --> 00:16:36.047

Because otherwise, we're really lost.

00:16:36.247 --> 00:16:37.488

It's hard to be a human.

00:16:37.668 --> 00:16:38.688

And I think the lie of

00:16:38.829 --> 00:16:41.330

atheism sometimes is that

00:16:42.211 --> 00:16:43.552

if you just leave religion,

00:16:43.712 --> 00:16:46.414

you'll just stumble upon the good life.

00:16:46.594 --> 00:16:48.796

You'll stumble upon your most meaningful,

00:16:48.936 --> 00:16:50.157

authentic, fulfilling life.

00:16:50.957 --> 00:16:52.358

And I don't think that that's true.

00:16:52.418 --> 00:16:54.479

I think that we need a lot of help.

00:16:54.699 --> 00:16:57.041

And so fear of freedom is

00:16:57.121 --> 00:16:59.842

this internal fear that we

00:16:59.923 --> 00:17:01.584

have that we are responsible,

00:17:01.604 --> 00:17:04.005

but that it's very scary

00:17:04.025 --> 00:17:05.146

because we don't know what to do.

00:17:05.166 --> 00:17:06.487

And we're just trying to

00:17:06.547 --> 00:17:08.468

figure out how to be human in this world.

00:17:08.888 --> 00:17:10.189

We have more questions than

00:17:10.209 --> 00:17:11.950

we have answers to, and it's hard.

00:17:12.590 --> 00:17:13.931

And so we need tools,

00:17:14.171 --> 00:17:15.592

but also we need to be

00:17:15.672 --> 00:17:17.153

aware that we are

00:17:17.233 --> 00:17:19.053

susceptible to creating

00:17:19.154 --> 00:17:20.474

leaders and to following

00:17:20.534 --> 00:17:22.035

leaders and to giving our

00:17:22.075 --> 00:17:23.496

authority away to leaders.

00:17:24.316 --> 00:17:25.337

A lot of people like to

00:17:25.417 --> 00:17:27.398

blame politics and blame religion,

00:17:27.458 --> 00:17:28.738

but we create them.

00:17:29.019 --> 00:17:30.179

We create them because of

00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:31.080

our fear of freedom.

00:17:32.260 --> 00:17:34.021

And so working in that space

00:17:34.082 --> 00:17:35.923

is really about getting in

00:17:35.983 --> 00:17:37.224

touch with who you are,

00:17:37.404 --> 00:17:38.705

really figuring out who you

00:17:38.805 --> 00:17:40.106

are and your core values

00:17:40.606 --> 00:17:42.147

and what resonates with you

00:17:42.187 --> 00:17:43.408

and what calls you and what

00:17:43.448 --> 00:17:45.109

is meaningful to you and

00:17:45.470 --> 00:17:47.211

making small steps in that

00:17:47.251 --> 00:17:48.191

direction and kind of

00:17:48.232 --> 00:17:49.492

building self-trust along

00:17:49.512 --> 00:17:50.833

the way so that you're not

00:17:50.873 --> 00:17:52.575

susceptible to the next cult,

00:17:53.155 --> 00:17:54.436

which you and I both see

00:17:54.496 --> 00:17:55.397

with people leaving

00:17:55.457 --> 00:17:56.878

religion that they'll jump to.

00:17:57.498 --> 00:17:58.299

from something like

00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:01.100

Mormonism and they'll jump headfirst into,

00:18:01.120 --> 00:18:03.442

I don't know, I'm a witch now,

00:18:03.662 --> 00:18:06.103

or I'm an anti theist and

00:18:06.163 --> 00:18:07.244

Christopher Hitchens is my

00:18:07.304 --> 00:18:08.925

new prophet or whatever the thing is.

00:18:10.206 --> 00:18:10.386

We,

00:18:10.606 --> 00:18:13.548

we tend to want to cult because it

00:18:13.688 --> 00:18:15.929

soothes our fear of too much freedom.

00:18:16.550 --> 00:18:16.810

Yeah.

00:18:16.850 --> 00:18:17.831

That's so, so,

00:18:17.891 --> 00:18:20.012

so true that if we destroy

00:18:20.052 --> 00:18:21.493

whatever systems in place now,

00:18:21.513 --> 00:18:22.654

we're going to rebuild one

00:18:23.194 --> 00:18:24.855

because I've been talking a

00:18:24.895 --> 00:18:26.216

lot lately about how

00:18:27.211 --> 00:18:29.612

hardwired we are in our dna

00:18:30.112 --> 00:18:31.752

towards survival and how

00:18:31.792 --> 00:18:32.833

that really drives

00:18:32.993 --> 00:18:34.213

everything that that we're

00:18:34.253 --> 00:18:36.073

doing and that even our

00:18:36.113 --> 00:18:37.814

emotional responses are a

00:18:38.114 --> 00:18:40.154

part of our survival and

00:18:40.675 --> 00:18:42.655

because of that we want to

00:18:42.695 --> 00:18:44.116

conserve resources as much

00:18:44.156 --> 00:18:45.596

as we can we as human

00:18:45.636 --> 00:18:47.417

beings and so we're going

00:18:47.437 --> 00:18:48.517

to seek for the easiest

00:18:48.677 --> 00:18:49.937

option whether it's the

00:18:50.037 --> 00:18:51.438

easiest psychologically or

00:18:51.458 --> 00:18:52.638

the easiest physically

00:18:52.986 --> 00:18:54.127

because that conserves our

00:18:54.187 --> 00:18:56.309

resources if we need them for survival.

00:18:56.770 --> 00:18:58.251

And the easiest option is

00:18:58.391 --> 00:18:59.352

always just to have

00:18:59.392 --> 00:19:00.633

somebody tell us what to do,

00:19:01.194 --> 00:19:02.375

tell us how to live our lives,

00:19:02.495 --> 00:19:03.957

tell us what morality is.

00:19:04.657 --> 00:19:08.481

And I see it so much in the internet,

00:19:08.982 --> 00:19:10.123

social media culture,

00:19:10.756 --> 00:19:11.777

where rather than doing

00:19:11.817 --> 00:19:13.178

their own critical thinking,

00:19:13.318 --> 00:19:14.739

people will see a post that

00:19:14.779 --> 00:19:15.839

resonates with them and

00:19:15.859 --> 00:19:16.980

they'll just repost it

00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:19.041

without thinking about how

00:19:19.101 --> 00:19:21.423

it applies to anything in their lives.

00:19:21.483 --> 00:19:22.484

They just say, oh,

00:19:22.664 --> 00:19:24.585

I like that idea and they repost it.

00:19:25.225 --> 00:19:26.226

And then they're surprised

00:19:26.286 --> 00:19:27.487

when they get pushback or

00:19:27.527 --> 00:19:29.028

comments that disagree with it.

00:19:29.928 --> 00:19:31.029

And they're like,

00:19:31.169 --> 00:19:32.410

why would you disagree with me?

00:19:32.830 --> 00:19:33.871

Everybody thinks this way

00:19:33.951 --> 00:19:35.572

because we've created these

00:19:35.692 --> 00:19:37.053

echo chambers for ourselves

00:19:37.173 --> 00:19:38.634

online where we only follow

00:19:38.654 --> 00:19:39.635

people we agree with.

00:19:39.735 --> 00:19:40.175

We only

00:19:40.825 --> 00:19:43.027

listen to or read or consume

00:19:43.067 --> 00:19:44.688

podcasts of people that we agree with.

00:19:45.348 --> 00:19:47.430

And it's because it's so

00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:48.931

much harder to listen to

00:19:49.131 --> 00:19:50.372

other ideas different than

00:19:50.452 --> 00:19:52.394

our own and expend the

00:19:52.454 --> 00:19:53.895

mental energy that it takes

00:19:53.995 --> 00:19:56.637

to absorb them and consider them.

00:19:57.383 --> 00:19:58.804

and decide whether or not

00:19:58.844 --> 00:20:00.045

they apply to our lives.

00:20:00.145 --> 00:20:01.285

So just as you say,

00:20:01.305 --> 00:20:04.987

this fear of freedom is really about,

00:20:05.528 --> 00:20:06.988

let me conserve my brain

00:20:07.028 --> 00:20:08.149

power and have someone else

00:20:08.189 --> 00:20:09.710

just tell me how to live my life.

00:20:10.330 --> 00:20:11.571

And it's really hard to

00:20:11.631 --> 00:20:13.652

break away from that and

00:20:13.732 --> 00:20:15.873

start to realize that we

00:20:15.913 --> 00:20:17.054

are the ones who make all

00:20:17.094 --> 00:20:18.435

those decisions for ourselves.

00:20:19.295 --> 00:20:21.435

Yeah, and this is where you really have to,

00:20:21.496 --> 00:20:22.156

like you're saying,

00:20:22.196 --> 00:20:24.356

you really have to cut

00:20:24.416 --> 00:20:26.517

against your biases because

00:20:26.537 --> 00:20:27.497

we're not these blank

00:20:27.537 --> 00:20:28.857

slates that just take in

00:20:28.897 --> 00:20:30.998

information and make rational decisions.

00:20:31.498 --> 00:20:33.058

We are really emotional

00:20:33.818 --> 00:20:35.619

creatures and we're highly biased,

00:20:35.699 --> 00:20:37.039

which means if you are not

00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.279

actively trying to get out

00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:40.360

of your echo chamber,

00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:42.120

like purposefully following

00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.260

people that challenge your beliefs,

00:20:44.441 --> 00:20:46.201

if you're not doing that intentionally,

00:20:46.221 --> 00:20:46.301

then

00:20:47.021 --> 00:20:49.203

your bias, even without choosing it,

00:20:49.663 --> 00:20:51.464

your bias will be kind of

00:20:51.504 --> 00:20:53.326

the flow of the river is

00:20:53.406 --> 00:20:55.067

that you will end up in an

00:20:55.127 --> 00:20:56.868

echo chamber because it feels safe.

00:20:57.028 --> 00:20:58.649

Like you say, it feels safe.

00:20:58.749 --> 00:20:59.570

This is the answer.

00:20:59.650 --> 00:21:00.630

These are the good guys.

00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:01.705

These are the bad guys.

00:21:01.812 --> 00:21:02.493

And like you say,

00:21:02.533 --> 00:21:03.734

there are evolutionary

00:21:03.834 --> 00:21:04.995

reasons why that feels

00:21:05.055 --> 00:21:06.596

really safe for us to have

00:21:06.876 --> 00:21:08.857

an in-group and to really

00:21:08.937 --> 00:21:10.118

follow the leader of our

00:21:10.198 --> 00:21:12.920

in-group who has signals of competence,

00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:13.120

right?

00:21:13.926 --> 00:21:16.306

And there are reasons that

00:21:16.506 --> 00:21:18.427

our brain tends towards that direction.

00:21:18.487 --> 00:21:20.747

So if you want to not be that,

00:21:20.827 --> 00:21:22.828

if you want to be able to

00:21:22.888 --> 00:21:24.168

say I'm a critical thinker

00:21:24.228 --> 00:21:25.248

and I'm actually thinking

00:21:25.308 --> 00:21:26.608

about this and I'm not just

00:21:27.048 --> 00:21:28.769

being driven by an echo chamber,

00:21:29.249 --> 00:21:30.089

then you actually have to

00:21:30.249 --> 00:21:32.429

intentionally do that or

00:21:32.489 --> 00:21:33.429

else your brain's just

00:21:33.449 --> 00:21:34.269

going to end up there

00:21:34.310 --> 00:21:35.430

without you even trying,

00:21:35.570 --> 00:21:37.090

without you even making the decision.

00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:37.970

Right.

00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:39.210

And I don't know if you find

00:21:39.250 --> 00:21:41.351

this to be true, but for me,

00:21:41.891 --> 00:21:42.911

it's exhausting work.

00:21:43.886 --> 00:21:45.267

and I can listen to

00:21:45.347 --> 00:21:47.248

something for about an hour

00:21:48.088 --> 00:21:49.649

before I stop processing

00:21:49.689 --> 00:21:50.750

and it sort of turns off.

00:21:50.810 --> 00:21:51.991

So I have to like set it

00:21:52.051 --> 00:21:55.312

aside and really meditate

00:21:55.372 --> 00:21:56.653

and consider the ideas that

00:21:56.673 --> 00:21:59.054

I'm hearing because it's so

00:21:59.135 --> 00:22:00.435

much mental energy to

00:22:00.515 --> 00:22:02.857

really dig into that and absorb it.

00:22:02.977 --> 00:22:04.838

And I just recently had to say,

00:22:05.575 --> 00:22:06.836

just give myself some grace

00:22:06.897 --> 00:22:08.238

for that because I'm like, well,

00:22:08.358 --> 00:22:09.419

I can't go to the gym and

00:22:09.459 --> 00:22:11.241

work out for 12 hours a day,

00:22:11.802 --> 00:22:13.504

nor can I mentally put

00:22:13.544 --> 00:22:15.246

myself in a space where I'm

00:22:15.286 --> 00:22:16.367

considering other people's

00:22:16.427 --> 00:22:17.889

ideas for a very long time.

00:22:17.969 --> 00:22:19.631

So it's like I've started to

00:22:19.691 --> 00:22:20.572

do it in short little

00:22:20.652 --> 00:22:21.894

exercises instead of

00:22:21.974 --> 00:22:23.015

expecting to read a whole

00:22:23.075 --> 00:22:24.757

book and be able to get through it.

00:22:26.077 --> 00:22:27.698

And I think that that's

00:22:27.758 --> 00:22:31.041

really wise because some people will say,

00:22:31.061 --> 00:22:33.203

they'll talk about the

00:22:33.263 --> 00:22:34.885

suffering of the world, for example,

00:22:34.925 --> 00:22:35.846

but if you're just laying

00:22:35.886 --> 00:22:37.407

down watching documentaries

00:22:37.467 --> 00:22:38.448

of the worst things that

00:22:38.468 --> 00:22:39.169

have ever happened to

00:22:39.209 --> 00:22:40.149

people to where you're just

00:22:40.350 --> 00:22:41.711

on the couch every day crying.

00:22:41.932 --> 00:22:43.793

which we can do, like we can do that.

00:22:44.274 --> 00:22:46.475

But is that actually helping

00:22:46.555 --> 00:22:48.076

the amount of suffering in the world?

00:22:48.837 --> 00:22:50.418

Or is that feeling it to the

00:22:50.498 --> 00:22:52.659

point that you're of no use to anyone?

00:22:53.040 --> 00:22:54.581

And so I think it's okay to say like,

00:22:54.681 --> 00:22:55.521

this is my limit.

00:22:55.541 --> 00:22:57.482

I'm taking as much as I can here.

00:22:57.583 --> 00:22:58.624

Because the point is,

00:22:58.684 --> 00:23:00.265

if we're trying to reduce suffering,

00:23:00.305 --> 00:23:01.606

because suffering is bad,

00:23:01.666 --> 00:23:02.827

if we can at least get there,

00:23:03.607 --> 00:23:05.129

then we do have limits to

00:23:05.169 --> 00:23:06.490

how much we can feel and

00:23:06.551 --> 00:23:07.572

how much we can think about

00:23:07.612 --> 00:23:09.354

these things and how much we can function,

00:23:09.594 --> 00:23:10.795

you know, thinking about these things.

00:23:10.835 --> 00:23:11.736

Because the other thing that

00:23:11.776 --> 00:23:13.238

we have to get really comfortable with,

00:23:13.919 --> 00:23:15.020

if you're not going to be

00:23:15.060 --> 00:23:15.901

in an echo chamber,

00:23:15.961 --> 00:23:17.102

is that you really have to

00:23:17.143 --> 00:23:18.204

get comfortable with

00:23:18.624 --> 00:23:19.164

I don't know.

00:23:19.965 --> 00:23:20.846

Like, I don't know.

00:23:21.006 --> 00:23:22.247

I've listened to this debate.

00:23:22.307 --> 00:23:23.948

There was good points on both sides.

00:23:24.448 --> 00:23:25.148

I don't really know.

00:23:25.168 --> 00:23:26.930

And you have to sit with that.

00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:27.870

And more and more,

00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:29.111

you have to get comfortable

00:23:29.151 --> 00:23:30.572

with this idea of, I don't know,

00:23:30.612 --> 00:23:31.333

it's complex.

00:23:31.813 --> 00:23:33.294

And the wisest people I know,

00:23:33.334 --> 00:23:34.415

if you ask them a question

00:23:34.455 --> 00:23:35.155

about something,

00:23:35.595 --> 00:23:36.376

they don't just like

00:23:36.476 --> 00:23:37.497

whatever the political

00:23:37.577 --> 00:23:40.018

party answer of that side narrative is,

00:23:40.058 --> 00:23:40.899

they don't run into it.

00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:42.520

They'll say it's complicated.

00:23:42.540 --> 00:23:43.261

I don't really know.

00:23:43.301 --> 00:23:44.281

It's really complicated.

00:23:44.802 --> 00:23:45.262

Those are,

00:23:45.462 --> 00:23:46.963

if you ask someone a question

00:23:47.003 --> 00:23:48.224

and they say it's complicated,

00:23:49.045 --> 00:23:50.926

that person understands what's going on.

00:23:51.147 --> 00:23:52.448

The person who says it's this,

00:23:52.608 --> 00:23:53.509

this is the right answer.

00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:55.271

These are the wrong answers, blah, blah,

00:23:55.311 --> 00:23:55.411

blah.

00:23:55.911 --> 00:23:57.373

That's something someone

00:23:57.393 --> 00:23:58.954

hasn't been thinking in that space.

00:23:58.994 --> 00:24:00.095

They're just following a narrative.

00:24:00.195 --> 00:24:01.697

If someone says it's complicated,

00:24:01.977 --> 00:24:03.659

those I feel like are the wisest people.

00:24:04.445 --> 00:24:05.505

Yeah, I agree with that.

00:24:05.565 --> 00:24:06.986

Those are those are my people.

00:24:07.526 --> 00:24:08.006

And, you know,

00:24:08.046 --> 00:24:09.146

maybe we're not going to get

00:24:09.166 --> 00:24:11.807

to talk about the other

00:24:11.907 --> 00:24:12.828

existential fears.

00:24:12.888 --> 00:24:13.888

And we sort of visited a

00:24:13.928 --> 00:24:14.828

little before this that

00:24:14.868 --> 00:24:15.608

we're just going to let the

00:24:15.668 --> 00:24:17.309

conversation go where it goes.

00:24:17.409 --> 00:24:19.570

But going back to something

00:24:19.610 --> 00:24:22.030

that you said earlier about justice,

00:24:22.430 --> 00:24:23.611

about seeking justice and

00:24:23.631 --> 00:24:25.151

the judges tend to be

00:24:25.211 --> 00:24:26.492

harsher when they're

00:24:26.512 --> 00:24:27.692

reminded that they're going to die.

00:24:28.427 --> 00:24:30.630

It reminded me of just what

00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:31.571

you're talking about,

00:24:31.851 --> 00:24:32.992

something complicated that

00:24:33.012 --> 00:24:34.213

I've been contemplating the

00:24:34.253 --> 00:24:36.376

last little while that I'm

00:24:36.556 --> 00:24:37.877

curious about your thoughts

00:24:38.618 --> 00:24:40.981

about the death penalty, because I,

00:24:41.001 --> 00:24:44.324

in the contemplation of that concept,

00:24:45.145 --> 00:24:49.029

cannot find a difference between justice

00:24:50.062 --> 00:24:50.643

And revenge.

00:24:51.823 --> 00:24:52.884

And that's an idea that I

00:24:52.944 --> 00:24:54.105

borrowed from another

00:24:54.165 --> 00:24:56.007

person that I was listening to, but I was,

00:24:56.027 --> 00:24:57.888

I included that in my

00:24:57.948 --> 00:25:00.470

contemplation because being

00:25:00.510 --> 00:25:02.552

in a position where I was witnessing,

00:25:02.572 --> 00:25:03.493

you know,

00:25:03.553 --> 00:25:04.814

a trial where it was

00:25:04.874 --> 00:25:06.495

consequential to me personally, um,

00:25:06.636 --> 00:25:07.897

I believed that what I

00:25:07.937 --> 00:25:10.059

thought was right was the death penalty,

00:25:10.439 --> 00:25:11.240

a life for a life.

00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:12.381

It makes sense to us.

00:25:12.441 --> 00:25:13.582

And especially in my case

00:25:13.622 --> 00:25:14.743

where children were involved.

00:25:15.466 --> 00:25:16.386

I thought that that's what

00:25:16.846 --> 00:25:18.607

was right and that's what I wanted.

00:25:19.347 --> 00:25:21.268

And after the sentence was pronounced,

00:25:21.388 --> 00:25:23.148

I felt so hollow and so

00:25:23.288 --> 00:25:24.888

empty and so alone.

00:25:25.689 --> 00:25:27.589

And this is so emotional for

00:25:27.629 --> 00:25:28.870

me because I still haven't

00:25:28.910 --> 00:25:29.530

figured it out.

00:25:29.890 --> 00:25:31.350

And it is so complicated.

00:25:31.370 --> 00:25:33.851

And I just got to the point

00:25:33.891 --> 00:25:36.051

where right now in this moment,

00:25:36.151 --> 00:25:37.952

I have no idea what the right answer is,

00:25:38.592 --> 00:25:40.353

but it's still part of my contemplation.

00:25:40.393 --> 00:25:41.313

So I'm really curious to

00:25:41.353 --> 00:25:41.853

know what you think.

00:25:43.313 --> 00:25:45.234

Yeah, that's a really good question.

00:25:45.294 --> 00:25:45.815

And you're right.

00:25:45.895 --> 00:25:47.355

The majority of the

00:25:47.456 --> 00:25:49.737

pro-death penalty in our

00:25:49.797 --> 00:25:51.758

country is really driven by this,

00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:56.041

especially Christian retributive justice,

00:25:56.921 --> 00:25:58.802

you know, eye for an eye,

00:25:58.983 --> 00:26:00.103

you need to be punished.

00:26:00.483 --> 00:26:01.864

Justice is you get what you

00:26:01.904 --> 00:26:02.805

deserve kind of thing.

00:26:03.525 --> 00:26:05.166

And most of our arguments

00:26:05.226 --> 00:26:06.187

around having the death

00:26:06.227 --> 00:26:07.788

penalty is really a form of

00:26:07.868 --> 00:26:09.389

revenge that you did this

00:26:09.449 --> 00:26:10.249

and you shouldn't have done it.

00:26:10.269 --> 00:26:11.090

So we're going to do it to you.

00:26:12.182 --> 00:26:14.545

And the hard thing is there

00:26:14.645 --> 00:26:16.426

truly are some people,

00:26:16.446 --> 00:26:18.488

and we don't even have to

00:26:18.528 --> 00:26:20.349

blame these people if we

00:26:20.369 --> 00:26:21.691

don't believe in free will,

00:26:22.291 --> 00:26:24.593

who were given such a bad

00:26:24.973 --> 00:26:27.716

deck of life to deal with,

00:26:28.236 --> 00:26:30.438

that they not only had mental issues,

00:26:30.498 --> 00:26:31.058

like sometimes

00:26:31.098 --> 00:26:32.540

schizophrenia or these other things,

00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:33.480

but then also just a

00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:36.223

significant amount of trauma, no empathy.

00:26:36.485 --> 00:26:38.166

really, really rough psychology.

00:26:38.266 --> 00:26:39.728

And we don't have the tools.

00:26:39.948 --> 00:26:41.729

We don't have a medication

00:26:41.749 --> 00:26:43.511

to give this person for

00:26:43.551 --> 00:26:45.413

them to be able to have the

00:26:45.453 --> 00:26:46.794

amount of empathy you need

00:26:47.174 --> 00:26:48.355

to be in a society.

00:26:48.636 --> 00:26:50.718

And so you have to remove

00:26:50.758 --> 00:26:53.540

these people from society.

00:26:53.560 --> 00:26:55.402

And there's just no way kind

00:26:55.442 --> 00:26:57.664

of around it with the tools that we have.

00:26:58.748 --> 00:27:00.590

And maybe in a perfect world,

00:27:01.211 --> 00:27:02.632

we could truly know that

00:27:02.752 --> 00:27:04.554

someone is going to always

00:27:04.615 --> 00:27:06.517

cause harm and kill other

00:27:06.537 --> 00:27:08.379

people and be a damage in a prison.

00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:09.580

And we know that they're

00:27:09.600 --> 00:27:11.302

guilty and it's a

00:27:11.402 --> 00:27:12.843

compassionate thing to do

00:27:12.964 --> 00:27:15.667

to just to end their life

00:27:15.727 --> 00:27:16.688

because they can't play in

00:27:16.728 --> 00:27:18.109

the playground with the rest of us.

00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:21.432

And maybe in a perfect world,

00:27:21.492 --> 00:27:22.552

there's a way that you

00:27:22.592 --> 00:27:23.953

could ethically justify it.

00:27:24.554 --> 00:27:25.254

But to me,

00:27:25.294 --> 00:27:26.875

there's just too many ethical

00:27:26.935 --> 00:27:28.316

problems with the state

00:27:28.396 --> 00:27:30.418

having enough power to kill people.

00:27:31.058 --> 00:27:33.079

And we are too biased to be

00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:35.241

able to really handle that

00:27:35.301 --> 00:27:36.642

kind of power ethically.

00:27:37.162 --> 00:27:38.002

So for example,

00:27:38.122 --> 00:27:39.523

Illinois got rid of their

00:27:39.563 --> 00:27:40.803

death penalty because they

00:27:40.843 --> 00:27:43.364

looked back and said 12 out

00:27:43.404 --> 00:27:45.346

of the 13 death penalties

00:27:45.406 --> 00:27:48.167

that they had where it was overturned,

00:27:48.407 --> 00:27:49.067

they were wrong.

00:27:49.067 --> 00:27:51.208

12 out of 13 of those was

00:27:51.228 --> 00:27:52.328

because the person was Black.

00:27:53.048 --> 00:27:54.490

And so essentially Illinois

00:27:54.530 --> 00:27:55.491

as a state said,

00:27:55.511 --> 00:27:58.094

we are too biased to have

00:27:58.154 --> 00:27:59.516

this kind of power to make

00:27:59.596 --> 00:28:01.157

decisions about someone's

00:28:01.938 --> 00:28:04.461

ultimate kind of ability to

00:28:04.521 --> 00:28:06.083

be able to function in society.

00:28:06.543 --> 00:28:08.946

We are far too biased as

00:28:09.046 --> 00:28:10.608

people to be able to handle

00:28:10.648 --> 00:28:11.409

that kind of power.

00:28:11.489 --> 00:28:13.051

So we're relinquishing that power.

00:28:13.771 --> 00:28:15.313

And it's actually cheaper by

00:28:15.353 --> 00:28:16.354

the time you do all the

00:28:16.394 --> 00:28:18.356

court cases to do a death penalty.

00:28:18.396 --> 00:28:19.697

It's actually cheaper to

00:28:19.737 --> 00:28:21.438

keep them alive in prison indefinitely.

00:28:22.179 --> 00:28:22.780

So for me,

00:28:22.840 --> 00:28:25.442

for practical reasons due to human nature,

00:28:25.722 --> 00:28:27.203

financial reasons of how

00:28:27.243 --> 00:28:29.005

much it's costing to remove

00:28:29.025 --> 00:28:30.244

this person from society, yeah.

00:28:30.267 --> 00:28:33.409

and because i don't believe

00:28:33.449 --> 00:28:34.949

in free will and so it's

00:28:34.989 --> 00:28:36.270

really a bad deck of you

00:28:36.290 --> 00:28:37.551

know a bad hand that this

00:28:37.611 --> 00:28:38.911

person was dealt in some

00:28:38.971 --> 00:28:40.032

way that that we weren't

00:28:40.112 --> 00:28:42.153

able to to help them with i

00:28:42.213 --> 00:28:44.134

tend away from the death

00:28:44.174 --> 00:28:45.475

penalty um but maybe in a

00:28:45.515 --> 00:28:46.656

perfect world there'd be a

00:28:46.696 --> 00:28:48.056

way to do that ethically i

00:28:48.096 --> 00:28:49.037

just don't think we live in

00:28:49.057 --> 00:28:50.718

that world yeah that's

00:28:50.738 --> 00:28:52.999

really interesting and i think that

00:28:54.625 --> 00:28:56.146

when there are so many

00:28:56.206 --> 00:28:57.507

different complicated human

00:28:57.547 --> 00:28:59.088

emotions involved in the

00:28:59.129 --> 00:29:01.430

justice system and so many

00:29:01.490 --> 00:29:03.012

different levels from the

00:29:03.372 --> 00:29:05.033

people who investigate the

00:29:05.073 --> 00:29:06.374

case and collect evidence

00:29:06.434 --> 00:29:07.375

to the people who then

00:29:07.495 --> 00:29:08.736

analyze the evidence to the

00:29:08.796 --> 00:29:09.857

people who then present the

00:29:09.937 --> 00:29:12.579

evidence in court to the panel of jurists

00:29:13.206 --> 00:29:13.846

to the judge,

00:29:14.087 --> 00:29:15.808

there are so many complicated

00:29:15.868 --> 00:29:18.529

factors in there that I

00:29:19.009 --> 00:29:20.190

don't think it's possible

00:29:20.250 --> 00:29:22.772

to really have what we as

00:29:22.852 --> 00:29:24.032

human beings believe is an

00:29:24.112 --> 00:29:25.073

ideal of justice.

00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:28.382

where it really is totally equitable.

00:29:28.882 --> 00:29:30.623

And this idea of fairness

00:29:30.663 --> 00:29:32.324

that I don't believe exists either.

00:29:32.845 --> 00:29:34.786

So I appreciate you saying

00:29:34.826 --> 00:29:36.087

that because it does make

00:29:36.107 --> 00:29:37.047

me feel better about the

00:29:37.087 --> 00:29:38.628

way that I feel about it.

00:29:39.129 --> 00:29:40.970

I think what I got to that

00:29:41.010 --> 00:29:42.211

was hard for me to wrestle

00:29:42.251 --> 00:29:44.913

with is this idea that when

00:29:44.953 --> 00:29:46.674

you condemn someone to die,

00:29:46.694 --> 00:29:48.675

you're essentially giving

00:29:48.755 --> 00:29:49.996

up on them as a human being.

00:29:50.036 --> 00:29:51.697

You're saying that there's no possible way

00:29:52.347 --> 00:29:53.688

way that they could ever be

00:29:53.748 --> 00:29:55.249

redeemed and i think when

00:29:55.289 --> 00:29:56.710

we do that for one person

00:29:56.750 --> 00:29:58.891

we do it for all of us it's

00:29:58.931 --> 00:30:00.152

like saying for all of us

00:30:00.232 --> 00:30:01.813

that there's an end to how

00:30:01.853 --> 00:30:03.074

much better you can become

00:30:03.134 --> 00:30:04.235

as a human being there's an

00:30:04.355 --> 00:30:05.356

end to how much you can

00:30:05.416 --> 00:30:07.337

grow or develop and that

00:30:07.357 --> 00:30:08.297

there's a place that you

00:30:08.337 --> 00:30:10.039

can get to where where you

00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:11.580

just don't change anymore

00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:12.900

and i think that's scary

00:30:12.961 --> 00:30:14.201

too and i maybe that needs

00:30:14.221 --> 00:30:15.382

to be added to the list of

00:30:15.482 --> 00:30:16.603

existential fears

00:30:18.652 --> 00:30:20.034

I do think that there are

00:30:20.194 --> 00:30:21.976

people who have the kind of

00:30:22.036 --> 00:30:24.339

psychology that they truly

00:30:24.379 --> 00:30:25.541

are not going to change.

00:30:26.161 --> 00:30:27.023

And it would be like if

00:30:27.083 --> 00:30:28.945

there was a dog that was

00:30:29.045 --> 00:30:31.408

just going around biting children,

00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:32.950

we would actually put the

00:30:32.990 --> 00:30:35.033

dog down in the most humane way possible.

00:30:35.433 --> 00:30:36.635

But the difference there,

00:30:36.735 --> 00:30:37.956

and I think you're pointing to it,

00:30:38.357 --> 00:30:40.359

is that we don't hate the dog.

00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:43.182

Like we don't say like, take that dog.

00:30:43.363 --> 00:30:45.605

It's a sad thing that for whatever reason,

00:30:45.665 --> 00:30:46.847

this dog didn't get the

00:30:46.887 --> 00:30:48.048

proper conditioning in

00:30:48.088 --> 00:30:50.171

childhood to be able to not

00:30:50.251 --> 00:30:51.813

bite people for, you know,

00:30:51.833 --> 00:30:53.375

maybe that dog was abused.

00:30:53.855 --> 00:30:56.176

And so out of compassion for the dog,

00:30:56.276 --> 00:30:57.217

that this dog is going to

00:30:57.257 --> 00:30:59.158

have a hard life and is

00:30:59.258 --> 00:31:00.919

also causing harm to others.

00:31:01.419 --> 00:31:02.859

It needs to be put down in

00:31:02.879 --> 00:31:04.240

the most ethical way possible.

00:31:04.600 --> 00:31:06.221

That doesn't feel charged to me.

00:31:06.361 --> 00:31:08.942

That doesn't feel like F you to me, right?

00:31:08.982 --> 00:31:10.583

That comes from a genuine

00:31:10.623 --> 00:31:11.564

place of compassion.

00:31:12.164 --> 00:31:13.685

And I think you're right

00:31:13.725 --> 00:31:15.225

that when it comes to

00:31:15.326 --> 00:31:17.086

humans and human errors and

00:31:17.146 --> 00:31:18.127

things like murder, right?

00:31:18.158 --> 00:31:20.068

it's very difficult to have

00:31:20.108 --> 00:31:22.469

that kind of just truly compassionate,

00:31:22.609 --> 00:31:24.309

empathetic form of justice

00:31:24.729 --> 00:31:26.390

that isn't driven also by

00:31:26.490 --> 00:31:29.030

revenge and bias and lots

00:31:29.090 --> 00:31:30.331

of other things going on.

00:31:30.851 --> 00:31:31.851

And it just becomes too

00:31:31.931 --> 00:31:33.892

complex for us to feel like

00:31:34.352 --> 00:31:36.152

we can competently say this

00:31:36.212 --> 00:31:38.013

is just like the dog situation.

00:31:38.833 --> 00:31:40.374

We're just too emotional and

00:31:40.414 --> 00:31:41.454

too biased for that.

00:31:42.339 --> 00:31:42.659

Yeah.

00:31:42.719 --> 00:31:43.520

What do you think of the

00:31:43.600 --> 00:31:44.981

idea that we have more

00:31:45.041 --> 00:31:46.402

compassion for the dog

00:31:46.482 --> 00:31:49.044

because we don't see ourselves in the dog,

00:31:49.424 --> 00:31:50.344

but we have a lack of

00:31:50.465 --> 00:31:51.685

compassion for criminals

00:31:51.765 --> 00:31:52.966

because we see ourselves in

00:31:52.986 --> 00:31:53.527

the criminals.

00:31:53.587 --> 00:31:54.767

We see our shadow side

00:31:54.827 --> 00:31:56.809

reflected back at us and it scares us.

00:31:58.090 --> 00:31:59.351

Yeah, there's some of that going on,

00:31:59.391 --> 00:32:00.291

but I also think that

00:32:00.311 --> 00:32:02.653

there's a free will aspect going on too,

00:32:02.693 --> 00:32:04.514

that we feel like the

00:32:04.594 --> 00:32:06.315

person could have chosen

00:32:06.395 --> 00:32:07.656

different and should have

00:32:07.736 --> 00:32:08.656

chosen different.

00:32:09.136 --> 00:32:10.777

Whereas the dog or the bear

00:32:10.837 --> 00:32:11.838

attacking someone,

00:32:11.903 --> 00:32:14.223

we just feel like that's what animals do.

00:32:14.943 --> 00:32:15.683

This is a wild,

00:32:15.944 --> 00:32:18.465

undomesticated animal that

00:32:18.625 --> 00:32:20.146

wasn't conditioned properly

00:32:20.286 --> 00:32:21.507

and is a danger to humans.

00:32:22.087 --> 00:32:23.168

And so we just kind of have

00:32:23.248 --> 00:32:24.728

compassion for that because

00:32:25.489 --> 00:32:27.429

we can sense that dogs will

00:32:27.489 --> 00:32:28.470

bite like that.

00:32:28.530 --> 00:32:31.131

That's not outside of normal dog behavior.

00:32:31.151 --> 00:32:32.412

You have to be conditioned out of that.

00:32:32.932 --> 00:32:33.952

So I also think that there's

00:32:33.992 --> 00:32:35.313

a free will aspect going on

00:32:35.373 --> 00:32:36.493

because I do find that

00:32:36.553 --> 00:32:37.874

people who accept that we

00:32:37.914 --> 00:32:39.695

don't have free will do

00:32:39.775 --> 00:32:40.535

tend to be more

00:32:40.615 --> 00:32:42.916

compassionate and have much more of that.

00:32:43.436 --> 00:32:44.597

It's just like a dog who

00:32:44.617 --> 00:32:45.918

needs to be put down kind

00:32:45.938 --> 00:32:46.938

of response that you,

00:32:47.198 --> 00:32:48.259

that you feel bad for the

00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:49.799

person because they got a rough hand,

00:32:49.879 --> 00:32:50.099

you know,

00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:51.200

they got dealt with a rough hand.

00:32:51.800 --> 00:32:53.961

We still may need to remove that person,

00:32:54.001 --> 00:32:55.001

but we don't do it with so

00:32:55.041 --> 00:32:56.141

much hatred that they

00:32:56.201 --> 00:32:57.401

should have done differently.

00:32:58.222 --> 00:33:00.442

So some of that also, I think,

00:33:00.502 --> 00:33:03.443

comes into the feeling that

00:33:03.763 --> 00:33:05.203

humans have more choices

00:33:05.283 --> 00:33:06.484

than animals and should

00:33:06.524 --> 00:33:07.664

have made a different choice.

00:33:08.244 --> 00:33:09.944

Yeah, that's really great.

00:33:09.964 --> 00:33:10.885

Thank you so much for

00:33:11.085 --> 00:33:12.967

unpacking that with me a little bit.

00:33:12.967 --> 00:33:14.166

I think we can move on to

00:33:14.186 --> 00:33:15.506

the third existential fear.

00:33:16.133 --> 00:33:16.373

Yeah,

00:33:16.413 --> 00:33:18.096

this is just giving us like a good

00:33:18.176 --> 00:33:19.798

just backbone of things to

00:33:19.818 --> 00:33:21.180

jump into for this conversation.

00:33:21.220 --> 00:33:23.383

So the third fear is fear of isolation.

00:33:23.403 --> 00:33:25.686

And that's a lot of,

00:33:26.047 --> 00:33:27.368

sometimes that comes after

00:33:27.448 --> 00:33:28.650

our fear of freedom where

00:33:28.690 --> 00:33:31.434

we realize that our path of life

00:33:32.074 --> 00:33:33.635

our core values, what speaks to us,

00:33:33.675 --> 00:33:35.957

what resonates with us, our biases,

00:33:36.557 --> 00:33:37.358

all the things that makes

00:33:37.438 --> 00:33:39.300

us us is truly unique.

00:33:39.500 --> 00:33:40.241

And in that way,

00:33:40.301 --> 00:33:41.322

there's a certain amount of

00:33:41.502 --> 00:33:43.143

mourning that happens that

00:33:43.203 --> 00:33:44.564

the world that you live in

00:33:44.844 --> 00:33:45.785

is truly unique.

00:33:45.885 --> 00:33:47.346

The way that you see and

00:33:47.426 --> 00:33:48.547

experience the world,

00:33:49.147 --> 00:33:50.688

no one else is experiencing

00:33:50.728 --> 00:33:51.449

it just like you.

00:33:52.309 --> 00:33:53.530

And there's something kind

00:33:53.570 --> 00:33:54.551

of sad about that,

00:33:54.812 --> 00:33:56.133

that we are essentially in

00:33:56.673 --> 00:33:58.035

some ways very alone.

00:33:58.235 --> 00:33:59.356

There's no one else who

00:33:59.416 --> 00:34:00.857

knows what it's like to be me.

00:34:01.478 --> 00:34:02.419

And there's no one else who

00:34:02.459 --> 00:34:03.780

can kind of look at my life.

00:34:04.441 --> 00:34:05.902

This is something that was sad for me.

00:34:05.922 --> 00:34:08.004

No one can fully understand

00:34:08.044 --> 00:34:09.666

the things that I face and

00:34:09.686 --> 00:34:10.847

the questions that I face

00:34:10.887 --> 00:34:12.128

and the challenges that I've had.

00:34:12.789 --> 00:34:14.090

And so no one can tell me

00:34:14.210 --> 00:34:16.793

truly if I'm doing a good job or not.

00:34:16.993 --> 00:34:18.355

if I'm doing the right thing or not.

00:34:18.381 --> 00:34:19.219

And that's hard and that's

00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:20.160

really lonely and that's

00:34:20.180 --> 00:34:21.141

really isolating.

00:34:21.341 --> 00:34:22.984

And because of that fear of freedom,

00:34:23.004 --> 00:34:25.147

this is why we so easily

00:34:25.687 --> 00:34:27.630

will contort ourselves to

00:34:27.690 --> 00:34:29.312

fit in a group because it

00:34:29.372 --> 00:34:30.554

gives us the illusion that

00:34:30.594 --> 00:34:32.577

we're not alone when really we are.

00:34:33.317 --> 00:34:36.100

And so going through the fear of isolation,

00:34:36.140 --> 00:34:37.241

when we process it,

00:34:37.301 --> 00:34:39.122

when we have tools to deal with it,

00:34:39.583 --> 00:34:41.484

something very paradoxical happens,

00:34:41.564 --> 00:34:42.805

which is that we actually

00:34:42.865 --> 00:34:44.487

can become closer to people

00:34:44.527 --> 00:34:45.628

because we learn how to be

00:34:45.688 --> 00:34:46.468

alone together.

00:34:47.549 --> 00:34:49.191

And the beautiful thing that

00:34:49.531 --> 00:34:51.192

happens when you truly sit

00:34:51.252 --> 00:34:53.274

with yourself without distraction,

00:34:53.514 --> 00:34:55.156

without having to change yourself,

00:34:55.296 --> 00:34:56.677

really sitting with yourself is

00:34:57.237 --> 00:34:59.138

is that it can make you much

00:34:59.238 --> 00:35:01.340

more honest and kind of

00:35:01.420 --> 00:35:02.800

impel you to take more

00:35:02.900 --> 00:35:04.641

risks in social situations

00:35:04.681 --> 00:35:05.622

where you take off your

00:35:05.662 --> 00:35:07.362

mask and you say as a

00:35:07.483 --> 00:35:08.603

mother actually i'm really

00:35:08.723 --> 00:35:09.884

struggling and i'm having

00:35:09.944 --> 00:35:10.924

intrusive thoughts that are

00:35:10.944 --> 00:35:12.105

really scaring me and once

00:35:12.145 --> 00:35:13.085

in a while i'll think of

00:35:13.125 --> 00:35:14.146

something really violent

00:35:14.206 --> 00:35:15.266

towards my kids and it

00:35:15.306 --> 00:35:16.787

scares me and it gives me a lot of shame

00:35:17.427 --> 00:35:17.547

Now,

00:35:17.587 --> 00:35:20.229

that's something that is true for so

00:35:20.329 --> 00:35:21.809

many women, including myself.

00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:24.231

But saying that out loud is

00:35:24.611 --> 00:35:26.752

very socially taboo because

00:35:26.792 --> 00:35:28.493

we like to think that the

00:35:28.553 --> 00:35:29.714

moment that we're snuggling

00:35:29.774 --> 00:35:30.774

on our mother's chest,

00:35:31.014 --> 00:35:32.395

that our mother is feeling

00:35:32.755 --> 00:35:34.236

what we're feeling as children,

00:35:34.436 --> 00:35:35.877

which is just love and safety.

00:35:36.457 --> 00:35:39.018

We don't want to feel like in that moment,

00:35:39.458 --> 00:35:40.538

actually our mom is in a

00:35:40.598 --> 00:35:41.979

moment where she wants to

00:35:42.019 --> 00:35:43.219

die and she wants to jump

00:35:43.259 --> 00:35:44.279

out of that window because

00:35:44.299 --> 00:35:45.640

she's so sleep deprived and

00:35:45.700 --> 00:35:47.040

she has psychotic rage and

00:35:47.080 --> 00:35:47.820

she has all these things

00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:48.721

going on with her brain.

00:35:49.521 --> 00:35:50.801

And so it's incredibly

00:35:50.861 --> 00:35:52.822

social taboo to even say that out loud.

00:35:53.402 --> 00:35:53.762

And yet,

00:35:54.083 --> 00:35:55.483

when you process the fear of

00:35:55.584 --> 00:35:57.125

isolation and you realize

00:35:57.905 --> 00:35:59.526

that you are alone in some ways,

00:36:00.247 --> 00:36:02.288

it can help you to take

00:36:02.348 --> 00:36:03.509

that risk in a social

00:36:03.549 --> 00:36:05.670

situation in a mom group and say,

00:36:05.810 --> 00:36:06.090

actually,

00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:07.131

I'm really struggling with

00:36:07.191 --> 00:36:07.952

intrusive thoughts.

00:36:08.512 --> 00:36:09.533

And then in a moment,

00:36:09.734 --> 00:36:11.215

just by someone else taking

00:36:11.316 --> 00:36:12.157

off their mask,

00:36:12.337 --> 00:36:13.678

it gives permission for

00:36:13.819 --> 00:36:14.860

everyone in the group to

00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:16.201

take off their mask too.

00:36:16.762 --> 00:36:17.443

And all of a sudden,

00:36:17.503 --> 00:36:19.285

it's a group of women crying together,

00:36:19.626 --> 00:36:21.188

actually being honest about

00:36:21.208 --> 00:36:21.888

their struggles,

00:36:22.129 --> 00:36:23.030

about being a mother and

00:36:23.070 --> 00:36:24.071

how they weren't prepared

00:36:24.472 --> 00:36:25.493

for how hard it was going

00:36:25.513 --> 00:36:26.634

to be and how much of their

00:36:26.694 --> 00:36:27.936

identity they were going to lose.

00:36:28.616 --> 00:36:29.477

And I've seen those

00:36:29.557 --> 00:36:31.158

conversations take a shift

00:36:31.258 --> 00:36:32.619

because someone was brave

00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:34.221

enough to take off that mask.

00:36:34.761 --> 00:36:35.642

And then all of a sudden

00:36:35.682 --> 00:36:36.522

these women are best

00:36:36.563 --> 00:36:37.623

friends and they're texting

00:36:37.663 --> 00:36:38.604

each other all the time and

00:36:38.624 --> 00:36:39.245

they're there for each

00:36:39.305 --> 00:36:40.926

other just because one

00:36:41.006 --> 00:36:43.368

person took that step into authenticity.

00:36:44.308 --> 00:36:46.689

And so that can happen as a

00:36:46.809 --> 00:36:49.450

benefit of going through

00:36:49.470 --> 00:36:52.232

this fear of feeling alone

00:36:53.132 --> 00:36:54.473

and having that change you

00:36:54.533 --> 00:36:55.413

to the point that you're

00:36:55.453 --> 00:36:56.914

more willing to be vulnerable.

00:36:57.574 --> 00:36:59.175

And then paradoxically,

00:36:59.235 --> 00:37:00.495

you find that you're not as

00:37:00.555 --> 00:37:01.696

alone as you think you are.

00:37:02.076 --> 00:37:03.196

And you actually can find

00:37:03.256 --> 00:37:04.177

deeper connections,