Breaking the Silence: Tommy Johnson on Men's Mental Health and Faith

WEBVTT

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hello beautiful humans

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welcome to the midlife

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revolution i am here with

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tommy johnson yes welcome

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to the podcast thank you

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We're out here in the middle

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of my living room,

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so we're gonna compete with dog noises,

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kid noises, and air conditioning,

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and who knows what else is gonna happen.

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It's a live show.

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It is a live show, anything can happen.

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That's right, anything can happen.

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I'm gonna just introduce you

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to Tommy Johnson.

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Tommy is a writer and content creator.

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Sometimes his work is

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serious and sometimes his

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work is lighthearted,

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but he always hopes to

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leave readers and viewers with something,

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a smile, a laugh,

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a thought or an idea after

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interacting with his content.

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In twenty nineteen,

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he and his wife Madison

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were married and the two

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now live in San Antonio, Texas,

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which is why we're here together today.

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Super excited to have you here.

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Thanks, yeah, I'm excited to be here.

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I was happy that you reached

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out and I'm happy that we

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can make it work.

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Yeah, good.

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So I've been following Tommy online for,

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I don't know, at least a year or so,

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and I really have appreciated his content,

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the energy that he brings

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to the online space and the

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fact that he's willing to

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be open and share about his

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journey and struggles and

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triumphs and everything in between.

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I really appreciate your

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latest substacks and tell

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us what it's called.

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It's called Little Whims.

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There's a backstory to that

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in the first one.

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So if you want to go check

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it out is why it's called that.

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But yeah, Little Whims on Substack.

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Is that the one about the bee?

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it's derived from a line in Emma

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by Jane Austen.

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Oh, yeah.

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But I do write about bees as well.

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There's a little piece about bees.

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Love bees.

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I love bees too.

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And I love Jane Austen.

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So when I heard that, I was like,

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oh my gosh,

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that's the perfect little thing.

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I love it.

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So I watched a couple of

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your videos there on YouTube as well.

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Yeah.

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And is your channel Little Whims?

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That one's just the Tomsters.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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But yeah,

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you can find the Little Whims

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stuff my Instagram, on YouTube.

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Just try to put it.

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in front of people's faces

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all over the place.

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Yeah.

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Cool.

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Okay.

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So yeah, definitely go check them out.

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The Tomsters on Instagram

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and YouTube and Substack, right?

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And Substack.

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Okay.

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Is it all the same username on all three?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Try to make it simple.

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Yeah.

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I tried to do that too.

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Yeah.

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Well, Tommy, I just want to hear,

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I want you to share with

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our listeners a little bit

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about your story and your

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background a little bit.

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And we really, I was telling Tommy,

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I brought him on because

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June is Men's Mental Health

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Awareness Month.

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And I think we don't talk

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about men's mental health enough.

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And so I thought this would

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be the perfect opportunity

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for us to have that conversation.

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For sure.

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Yeah.

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So go ahead.

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Yeah.

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So where we share similar

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backgrounds is we both grew

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up in the Mormon church.

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And that's a lot of where my

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story begins with sharing it online.

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Grew up a member of the church,

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spent most my life in Utah,

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which makes sense with the

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Mormon background.

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around twenty eighteen.

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So I would have been, let's see,

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twenty three at the time

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when my younger sisters

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came out to me as gay.

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because of that,

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I had a real kind of

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internal look where I

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started questioning what I

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just started to ask myself

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some honest questions.

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What do I really believe in?

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Do I really believe what I

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say that I believe on every

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Sunday.

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And I started going through these beliefs.

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I started questioning every belief.

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I started at square one.

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Do I believe in God?

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Do I believe in Jesus Christ?

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Do I believe in this and this?

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And for a lot of those answers,

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it was still yes.

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But it was for the first

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time I started questioning

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things and kind of gave

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myself permission to

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depart from approved

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narrative and kind of

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standard type of belief.

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As the years went on,

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I really struggled

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particularly with LGBTQ issues

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with my standing in the Mormon church,

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with the Mormon church

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having a very strict and

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obvious belief that

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marriage is between a man and a woman.

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It was hard for me to

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reconcile how I really believed,

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which wasn't that,

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and attended a church and

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then subscribed to a faith

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that taught that.

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For a long time, I tried to make it work,

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tried to make it work.

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And in the summer of twenty

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twenty two was really kind

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of this tipping point.

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I was watching a documentary

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on Hulu called Mormon No More,

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which I recommend to everyone.

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about a lovely couple who

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they also grew up Mormon.

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They married men, had families.

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And then these two women became friends,

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ultimately fell in love.

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And they're now a happy couple.

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But a part of their story is

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finding their true selves

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and leaning into that and

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listening to themselves and

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watching that.

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Again, in twenty eighteen,

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things kind of started in

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twenty twenty two.

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I had four years of this

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questioning coming up with

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ideas and trying to just

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settle into a place where I

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felt like myself in that moment.

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I thought I got to.

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I really got to choose one

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or the other being torn apart.

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And it's really having an

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effect on my mental health,

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my physical health.

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Anxiety is just of through the,

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through the roof.

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So I just kind of,

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I felt like I had a lean

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into one or the other.

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And at that point,

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which one I was wanting to

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lean into for me was pretty obvious.

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Still a really tough

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decision to leave a faith.

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All I knew for my whole life,

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it was still tough to leave

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that and still isn't easy

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to navigate life today.

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But I made the ultimate

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decision to follow my heart,

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my conscience,

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leave the Mormon faith and

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kind of start this post-Mormon life.

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And there you

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figuring stuff out for

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myself and really lean into

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this life of authenticity

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that feels scary but more

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true to myself yeah yeah it

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is a scary space when we

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when we sort of make that

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leap to get out there and

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it's it's interesting from

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the mormon perspective

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because people who've never

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been mormon before or if

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you're a faithful member of

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another faith a lot of

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people don't realize that

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mormonism is so all-encompassing yeah

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it really does take over

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your entire life and it's

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your entire worldview as well.

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And so questioning that I

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think is really brave and

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also being willing to step

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outside of that when I'm

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guessing a lot of your

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family is still in the faith or no.

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Well, so extended family, yes.

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There's seven of us in my immediate family,

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and five of us have left, actually.

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So I feel really blessed to have,

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and in the Mormon spirit,

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it's probably a little

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ironic to use this word,

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but some pioneers in my

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family leaving the Mormon church.

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But I did get to follow them,

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and I'm really grateful for them.

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And I've told them, like, hey,

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without you going first,

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it would have been a lot harder.

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And I've

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only imagine was like for

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you so thank you yeah um

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but also i'm sorry i wasn't

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because in a lot of ways

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when they were leaving i

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was in this midst of a

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struggle and i i wasn't

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probably the most

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supportive i wasn't trying

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to get them to come back

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but i wasn't also there to

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say uh i mean i don't know

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i feel like i could have

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been better but um yes not

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the first to to leave but

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um yeah still um

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making my own way through stuff.

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Yeah.

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And you also served a full-time mission,

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right?

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I did.

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Yeah.

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All two years up in Canada.

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Okay.

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What part of Canada?

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Winnipeg.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So central Canada, the plains of up north.

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So very cold.

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Very cold.

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Yeah.

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And then but also randomly, not randomly,

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scientifically very hot in

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the summer to hundred plus

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degrees or forty plus,

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as they would say in Celsius.

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Yeah.

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Very cold.

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Yeah.

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So the language that you had

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to learn was the metric system.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I was able to speak English,

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but I did have to learn

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kilometers and Celsius.

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And so it is its own language.

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yeah yes but you didn't

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spend any time in the mtc

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focusing on that right no

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no that was no um you had

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two weeks mtc just to brush

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up and get really committed

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to the lessons but yeah no

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language to be learned

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which was actually i was i

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was really not wanting to

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learn a language i was

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really scared that i would

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go out to somewhere where

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english wasn't the first

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language language and i

00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:32.380

want to share my true

00:08:32.400 --> 00:08:34.522

feelings and not have the tools to do so

00:08:35.282 --> 00:08:37.203

So I was really grateful to get English.

00:08:37.243 --> 00:08:38.163

I know some people are

00:08:38.523 --> 00:08:39.163

bummed out about that

00:08:39.183 --> 00:08:41.324

because Mormon missionary calls,

00:08:42.304 --> 00:08:42.984

you don't choose them.

00:08:43.064 --> 00:08:43.605

You get them.

00:08:43.925 --> 00:08:44.765

They're given to you.

00:08:44.905 --> 00:08:46.385

So you don't know until you open up,

00:08:47.126 --> 00:08:48.166

I guess, an email now.

00:08:48.206 --> 00:08:50.187

But for me, a packet of paper.

00:08:50.807 --> 00:08:52.707

So I was very grateful to

00:08:52.747 --> 00:08:53.988

get an English speaking mission.

00:08:54.008 --> 00:08:54.568

But yeah,

00:08:54.588 --> 00:08:56.709

full two years from twenty

00:08:56.769 --> 00:08:57.749

thirteen to twenty fifteen.

00:08:58.371 --> 00:09:01.153

OK, so after OK, first of all,

00:09:01.173 --> 00:09:02.394

I have questions about the mission.

00:09:03.495 --> 00:09:05.176

So because I never served a mission,

00:09:05.737 --> 00:09:06.958

I got married when I was twenty.

00:09:07.278 --> 00:09:08.559

And so at the time,

00:09:08.739 --> 00:09:09.520

you couldn't go when you

00:09:09.540 --> 00:09:11.101

were a female unless you were twenty one.

00:09:11.701 --> 00:09:13.262

I really wanted to serve a mission,

00:09:13.563 --> 00:09:15.664

but my life didn't work out that way.

00:09:16.805 --> 00:09:18.026

But in the MTC,

00:09:18.146 --> 00:09:19.147

I'm curious about that

00:09:19.167 --> 00:09:20.228

because you said you only

00:09:20.268 --> 00:09:21.549

spent two weeks there, right?

00:09:22.069 --> 00:09:24.810

Did you feel at the time as

00:09:24.870 --> 00:09:27.472

though you had some freedom

00:09:27.612 --> 00:09:31.073

and space and ways to be your own person?

00:09:31.173 --> 00:09:33.214

Or did you sort of feel as

00:09:33.254 --> 00:09:35.395

though the MTZ was

00:09:35.455 --> 00:09:38.957

tightening you down into a missionary?

00:09:39.597 --> 00:09:40.297

Yeah, well,

00:09:40.398 --> 00:09:43.279

so just from my perspective at that time,

00:09:44.219 --> 00:09:49.041

being in the MTZ was how I viewed myself.

00:09:49.122 --> 00:09:49.502

So I...

00:09:51.067 --> 00:09:51.968

Living in Utah,

00:09:52.749 --> 00:09:54.271

I grew up maybe twenty

00:09:54.312 --> 00:09:55.433

minutes from the MTC.

00:09:55.894 --> 00:09:57.195

So the mountain ranges I

00:09:57.215 --> 00:09:58.858

could see from the MTC were

00:09:58.878 --> 00:10:00.059

the ones I grew up seeing.

00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:02.643

So I felt like I was at home

00:10:03.184 --> 00:10:04.305

and I felt honestly like I

00:10:04.325 --> 00:10:05.627

was kind of like at a church camp.

00:10:06.728 --> 00:10:08.889

on steroids where it was

00:10:09.089 --> 00:10:10.590

church stuff all the time

00:10:10.610 --> 00:10:11.311

but it was what I had

00:10:11.411 --> 00:10:12.671

prepared for my whole life

00:10:12.691 --> 00:10:14.532

yeah and so I knew nothing

00:10:14.632 --> 00:10:16.934

else um so I I definitely

00:10:16.994 --> 00:10:19.855

viewed it as me personified

00:10:19.895 --> 00:10:20.836

like this is what I was

00:10:21.396 --> 00:10:22.417

made to do like it's what

00:10:22.497 --> 00:10:23.317

I've been preparing

00:10:23.597 --> 00:10:24.328

preparing to do

00:10:24.328 --> 00:10:26.000

what the first shock was

00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:27.961

was my first night in Canada

00:10:28.787 --> 00:10:30.308

where it was my first time

00:10:30.349 --> 00:10:31.089

leaving the country.

00:10:31.349 --> 00:10:32.511

I know it's not that far,

00:10:32.771 --> 00:10:34.012

but it is out of the country.

00:10:34.473 --> 00:10:37.616

It was my first time away from my family.

00:10:38.016 --> 00:10:38.817

At that time,

00:10:39.217 --> 00:10:40.018

you could only talk to your

00:10:40.058 --> 00:10:41.700

family twice a year on the phone.

00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:43.922

They introduced FaceTime

00:10:44.282 --> 00:10:45.884

later on in my mission, so we could...

00:10:46.596 --> 00:10:47.257

see my family,

00:10:47.617 --> 00:10:49.399

but it was only twice a year.

00:10:51.262 --> 00:10:53.244

That's when this real shock

00:10:53.925 --> 00:10:55.446

kind of hit me about like, okay,

00:10:55.607 --> 00:10:57.188

this is something new, this is different.

00:10:57.589 --> 00:10:59.371

But in terms of me wanting

00:10:59.391 --> 00:11:01.273

to live authentically into myself,

00:11:01.915 --> 00:11:03.577

my perception of myself was,

00:11:04.417 --> 00:11:05.678

This is what I've been preparing for.

00:11:05.878 --> 00:11:06.158

Yeah.

00:11:06.198 --> 00:11:07.519

So in that regard,

00:11:07.979 --> 00:11:09.240

I feel like I was in the perfect place.

00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:09.920

Yeah.

00:11:09.980 --> 00:11:10.160

Yeah.

00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:11.221

That's really interesting.

00:11:11.681 --> 00:11:13.422

So for those who've never been Mormon,

00:11:14.442 --> 00:11:15.743

you'll know or you'll

00:11:15.763 --> 00:11:18.345

you'll want to know that as a young man,

00:11:18.785 --> 00:11:20.426

the pressure is extremely

00:11:20.866 --> 00:11:22.347

high to go on a mission.

00:11:22.827 --> 00:11:24.368

Did you feel that way growing up?

00:11:24.688 --> 00:11:25.388

Oh, for sure.

00:11:25.549 --> 00:11:25.809

I mean,

00:11:25.989 --> 00:11:28.430

I didn't think not going was an option.

00:11:28.897 --> 00:11:30.858

It was just a matter of when and where.

00:11:31.218 --> 00:11:33.099

The question of, will I go or not?

00:11:33.119 --> 00:11:33.819

That wasn't even,

00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:35.679

that was already answered.

00:11:36.040 --> 00:11:37.460

I feel like sometimes when

00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.201

you go through a document online,

00:11:40.221 --> 00:11:41.502

there's like questions or

00:11:41.522 --> 00:11:43.383

lines that are blurred out

00:11:43.403 --> 00:11:44.683

that you can't even mess with.

00:11:45.243 --> 00:11:46.604

To me, that was that in my life.

00:11:46.624 --> 00:11:46.964

It was like,

00:11:47.024 --> 00:11:48.224

this one's already been

00:11:48.284 --> 00:11:50.025

prepared and already answered.

00:11:50.285 --> 00:11:51.065

It's locked in.

00:11:51.345 --> 00:11:52.025

Can't mess with it.

00:11:52.045 --> 00:11:52.605

You're going.

00:11:53.131 --> 00:11:54.292

At what age did you feel

00:11:54.352 --> 00:11:55.813

like you were locked in for sure?

00:11:57.113 --> 00:11:58.194

As long as I can remember.

00:11:58.654 --> 00:12:00.395

We were singing songs in primary.

00:12:00.475 --> 00:12:01.376

So as a kid,

00:12:01.757 --> 00:12:02.857

I hope they call me on a mission.

00:12:03.017 --> 00:12:03.778

Yep.

00:12:03.838 --> 00:12:06.119

So probably when I learned that song.

00:12:06.259 --> 00:12:06.839

Yeah.

00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:08.040

And I remember like my dad

00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.181

served a mission to Sweden.

00:12:09.641 --> 00:12:10.461

I remember hearing those

00:12:10.582 --> 00:12:12.423

stories when I was young.

00:12:12.903 --> 00:12:13.803

I'm getting baptized at

00:12:13.983 --> 00:12:15.284

eight as a young man.

00:12:15.364 --> 00:12:16.766

It was OK.

00:12:16.806 --> 00:12:18.326

Well, this is step one.

00:12:18.427 --> 00:12:18.667

And then.

00:12:19.987 --> 00:12:20.827

looking and that you know

00:12:20.847 --> 00:12:21.848

they present you with and

00:12:21.868 --> 00:12:22.628

here are the rest of the

00:12:22.648 --> 00:12:23.829

steps one of those is well

00:12:23.849 --> 00:12:24.589

yeah then you'll serve a

00:12:24.609 --> 00:12:26.010

mission this is kind of

00:12:26.030 --> 00:12:28.071

this assumed thing as

00:12:28.552 --> 00:12:29.233

again like you said

00:12:29.273 --> 00:12:31.154

particularly with men who

00:12:31.274 --> 00:12:32.554

are the ones given

00:12:32.975 --> 00:12:34.415

priesthood power the power

00:12:34.435 --> 00:12:35.756

to act and make decisions

00:12:35.776 --> 00:12:37.397

within the church um a

00:12:37.437 --> 00:12:38.217

young man gets that at

00:12:38.257 --> 00:12:39.898

twelve if he's kind of

00:12:39.938 --> 00:12:41.159

worthy enough i think now

00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:43.040

it's eleven but at my time it was twelve

00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:45.261

So at twelve, again, it's like, OK,

00:12:45.341 --> 00:12:46.322

when you when you serve a

00:12:46.362 --> 00:12:47.863

mission at fourteen,

00:12:48.143 --> 00:12:49.905

when you when you serve a mission at six,

00:12:49.945 --> 00:12:50.985

when you serve a mission, when you're,

00:12:52.006 --> 00:12:53.367

you know, eighteen or nineteen years old,

00:12:53.507 --> 00:12:56.850

it was always when it was assumed.

00:12:56.870 --> 00:12:57.270

Yeah.

00:12:57.570 --> 00:13:00.323

And I definitely recognize that growing up,

00:13:00.393 --> 00:13:00.633

you know,

00:13:00.733 --> 00:13:02.154

I would be in a seminary class

00:13:02.214 --> 00:13:03.035

and of course we'd be

00:13:03.075 --> 00:13:04.136

studying the scriptures.

00:13:04.216 --> 00:13:04.556

But yeah.

00:13:05.276 --> 00:13:06.457

It always seemed like there

00:13:06.477 --> 00:13:08.879

was a little extra push for the guys.

00:13:08.939 --> 00:13:10.380

Like, when you go on your mission,

00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:11.901

you're going to need to know X, Y,

00:13:11.941 --> 00:13:13.843

Z. And it's almost like I

00:13:13.883 --> 00:13:16.505

feel in the same way that

00:13:17.025 --> 00:13:18.206

women are sort of told,

00:13:18.506 --> 00:13:20.728

if you get a job or if you have a career,

00:13:21.308 --> 00:13:21.909

it's sort of this

00:13:22.069 --> 00:13:24.490

expectation that you maybe might not.

00:13:24.550 --> 00:13:25.751

But for men, it was like,

00:13:26.172 --> 00:13:27.453

there's no question you're

00:13:27.473 --> 00:13:28.333

going to go on a mission.

00:13:28.533 --> 00:13:29.034

And it's so...

00:13:29.594 --> 00:13:31.415

Again, for people who've never been Mormon,

00:13:32.016 --> 00:13:33.476

starting at the age of three,

00:13:33.857 --> 00:13:35.698

we start going to Sunday school classes.

00:13:36.338 --> 00:13:37.619

And at the age of three,

00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:39.440

they start teaching you these songs,

00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:41.301

which are basically ways of

00:13:41.361 --> 00:13:42.882

indoctrinating you into the faith.

00:13:42.922 --> 00:13:43.983

I don't know if you feel that way.

00:13:44.409 --> 00:13:46.609

Oh, for sure, yeah.

00:13:46.649 --> 00:13:48.490

And I know that some people

00:13:48.510 --> 00:13:49.610

might bristle at that word,

00:13:49.630 --> 00:13:50.670

but the same way that I

00:13:50.710 --> 00:13:52.811

feel like learning certain

00:13:52.851 --> 00:13:53.911

versions of American

00:13:53.971 --> 00:13:55.211

history as a kid is

00:13:55.332 --> 00:13:58.452

indoctrinating to view the

00:13:58.512 --> 00:13:59.852

country in a certain way,

00:13:59.872 --> 00:14:01.133

I feel like it's the same way.

00:14:02.994 --> 00:14:03.694

I would have never come up

00:14:03.714 --> 00:14:04.694

with my own thought about

00:14:04.754 --> 00:14:06.214

going and leaving my family

00:14:06.254 --> 00:14:06.974

for two years.

00:14:07.474 --> 00:14:08.175

That was really hard.

00:14:10.237 --> 00:14:11.758

That wasn't my idea to do that.

00:14:12.259 --> 00:14:14.000

I was told that is your destiny,

00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:14.621

basically.

00:14:15.261 --> 00:14:18.103

Because to add on to the songs and whatnot,

00:14:18.844 --> 00:14:19.725

at the age of fourteen,

00:14:19.785 --> 00:14:20.845

I received what in the

00:14:20.885 --> 00:14:21.726

Mormon church is called a

00:14:21.786 --> 00:14:22.927

patriarchal blessing,

00:14:23.508 --> 00:14:24.769

which is a special type of

00:14:25.809 --> 00:14:28.151

laying on of hands blessing directly.

00:14:28.572 --> 00:14:31.974

It's sold as directly from God to you.

00:14:32.835 --> 00:14:33.936

And in that blessing, it's

00:14:34.677 --> 00:14:36.819

a bit fortune telling, fortune telling.

00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:38.020

Yeah.

00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:39.381

And it said, you will,

00:14:39.541 --> 00:14:40.882

the time will come when you

00:14:40.922 --> 00:14:41.783

will serve a mission.

00:14:42.304 --> 00:14:43.485

And again, at my mind,

00:14:43.665 --> 00:14:44.626

my mindset at the time,

00:14:44.966 --> 00:14:46.647

I'm taking this as God is

00:14:46.667 --> 00:14:48.229

talking to me about the future.

00:14:48.249 --> 00:14:48.869

Yeah.

00:14:48.929 --> 00:14:50.451

So that ruled out any type

00:14:50.491 --> 00:14:52.232

of possibility of yes or no.

00:14:52.272 --> 00:14:53.954

Maybe if it's like, yeah, well,

00:14:54.756 --> 00:14:56.076

God knows everything from,

00:14:56.537 --> 00:14:57.477

from what has happened to

00:14:57.517 --> 00:14:58.217

what will happen.

00:14:58.257 --> 00:14:58.958

And he's seen it.

00:14:59.018 --> 00:14:59.758

So I will serve.

00:14:59.818 --> 00:15:00.918

He'll he's already seen it.

00:15:00.958 --> 00:15:02.219

So I got to do it.

00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:03.699

Like I can't like it will happen.

00:15:03.739 --> 00:15:06.420

So at a very early age,

00:15:06.780 --> 00:15:08.281

the possibility of not going was,

00:15:08.817 --> 00:15:10.238

Not even there.

00:15:10.258 --> 00:15:10.358

Yeah.

00:15:10.438 --> 00:15:11.358

And we can probably even

00:15:11.418 --> 00:15:13.979

rewind a little bit from there, too,

00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:16.300

because when you're born

00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:18.320

into the church in a

00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:21.942

faithful member family as a baby,

00:15:22.162 --> 00:15:23.523

you're given a blessing in

00:15:23.563 --> 00:15:24.863

the main sacrament meeting.

00:15:24.923 --> 00:15:26.704

So rather than baptizing

00:15:26.804 --> 00:15:28.484

infants in the LDS church,

00:15:28.604 --> 00:15:32.406

you are blessed as an infant and then.

00:15:33.446 --> 00:15:34.167

at the age of eight,

00:15:34.187 --> 00:15:35.949

you're expected to be baptized.

00:15:36.509 --> 00:15:38.211

And in that father's blessing,

00:15:38.231 --> 00:15:39.532

your father gives you a blessing.

00:15:39.953 --> 00:15:41.915

And I've heard a hundred of

00:15:41.955 --> 00:15:43.677

them and they're all very similar.

00:15:44.177 --> 00:15:45.819

And so if you're blessing a baby boy,

00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:46.600

you're going to say,

00:15:46.760 --> 00:15:47.981

we bless you that you'll

00:15:48.041 --> 00:15:49.182

eventually serve a mission.

00:15:49.222 --> 00:15:50.203

We bless you that you'll

00:15:50.243 --> 00:15:51.485

find a worthy companion and

00:15:51.505 --> 00:15:52.346

marry in the temple.

00:15:53.006 --> 00:15:54.507

And we bless you with children.

00:15:54.567 --> 00:15:55.088

And we, you know,

00:15:55.148 --> 00:15:56.269

it's like they line your

00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:57.429

life out for you already

00:15:57.449 --> 00:15:58.370

when you're an infant.

00:15:58.951 --> 00:16:00.171

And I don't have the words

00:16:00.191 --> 00:16:02.013

of my infant blessing, but yeah.

00:16:02.653 --> 00:16:02.793

Yeah.

00:16:02.833 --> 00:16:03.974

I don't have mine either,

00:16:04.014 --> 00:16:06.896

but I would put money on the, you know,

00:16:06.956 --> 00:16:07.617

something similar.

00:16:07.637 --> 00:16:08.618

Like you said, they are very,

00:16:08.938 --> 00:16:09.678

very similar.

00:16:09.738 --> 00:16:10.639

Yeah.

00:16:10.659 --> 00:16:11.960

They're not technically all

00:16:12.861 --> 00:16:13.901

supposed to be the same,

00:16:13.941 --> 00:16:15.903

but you hear one and then, Oh,

00:16:15.963 --> 00:16:16.964

that's pretty, you know,

00:16:17.004 --> 00:16:17.944

that sounds like a good one

00:16:18.585 --> 00:16:19.205

that you use it for you.

00:16:19.225 --> 00:16:20.146

And then, and then,

00:16:20.818 --> 00:16:21.859

Culture becomes a thing and

00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:23.199

then they all kind of send us away.

00:16:23.219 --> 00:16:23.419

Yeah,

00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:25.340

and it's like a cultural thing that

00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:26.221

they all kind of do.

00:16:26.341 --> 00:16:27.841

And these are young fathers

00:16:27.861 --> 00:16:28.962

who have not been trained

00:16:28.982 --> 00:16:31.803

in any sort of clergy way.

00:16:32.224 --> 00:16:33.164

They've just been brought up

00:16:33.204 --> 00:16:33.784

in the church.

00:16:33.884 --> 00:16:36.046

And so it's kind of, I don't know,

00:16:36.166 --> 00:16:37.426

in some ways I think it's a

00:16:37.466 --> 00:16:38.267

little bit sweet,

00:16:38.327 --> 00:16:39.307

or at least I used to

00:16:39.327 --> 00:16:40.368

before I realized how...

00:16:41.208 --> 00:16:43.210

weird it was um but i think

00:16:43.250 --> 00:16:44.011

it's kind of like a

00:16:44.051 --> 00:16:44.892

father's hopes and

00:16:44.952 --> 00:16:46.453

expectations for his child

00:16:47.074 --> 00:16:49.176

and i think that's sweet to

00:16:49.296 --> 00:16:50.457

one degree but to another

00:16:50.477 --> 00:16:52.279

degree it does sort of

00:16:52.339 --> 00:16:54.260

begin this cultural idea

00:16:54.441 --> 00:16:55.522

that you're not allowed to

00:16:55.542 --> 00:16:57.143

be an individual at least

00:16:57.183 --> 00:16:58.725

it felt that way for me

00:16:58.745 --> 00:17:00.862

yeah yeah it definitely felt

00:17:01.248 --> 00:17:04.031

I mean, we were a part of God's army,

00:17:04.212 --> 00:17:04.672

you know,

00:17:04.812 --> 00:17:07.377

like this was a call to go and

00:17:07.437 --> 00:17:09.219

change the little part of

00:17:09.239 --> 00:17:11.482

the world that you're going to.

00:17:12.223 --> 00:17:13.384

Two by two, you know,

00:17:13.424 --> 00:17:14.946

missionaries are always with someone.

00:17:16.067 --> 00:17:18.110

Yeah, you do join this bigger group.

00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:18.731

And I think.

00:17:21.621 --> 00:17:23.243

the way that it addresses

00:17:23.343 --> 00:17:25.665

kind of this innate desire

00:17:25.745 --> 00:17:26.966

to be your own individual

00:17:27.427 --> 00:17:30.329

is by demonizing that part and saying,

00:17:30.369 --> 00:17:30.530

well,

00:17:31.843 --> 00:17:32.483

Yes, of course,

00:17:32.523 --> 00:17:33.643

we're all born with our

00:17:33.723 --> 00:17:36.044

unique desires and wants and needs,

00:17:36.124 --> 00:17:37.004

but that's a part of the

00:17:37.044 --> 00:17:38.245

human experience that we

00:17:38.265 --> 00:17:40.885

need to shed as we are born

00:17:40.925 --> 00:17:43.906

again in our commitment to

00:17:43.946 --> 00:17:46.687

Jesus and to living his gospel.

00:17:47.227 --> 00:17:48.587

A part of that is kind of

00:17:48.607 --> 00:17:49.387

tearing away this

00:17:49.447 --> 00:17:50.787

individual part of us and

00:17:50.807 --> 00:17:53.368

falling in line with what

00:17:53.888 --> 00:17:57.569

makes you qualify for heaven,

00:17:57.629 --> 00:17:59.310

whatever that might be.

00:17:59.830 --> 00:18:00.970

Yes, you are an individual.

00:18:02.252 --> 00:18:02.312

Now,

00:18:02.332 --> 00:18:03.493

are these parts of you that you feel

00:18:03.513 --> 00:18:04.333

like are really unique?

00:18:04.773 --> 00:18:05.453

That is true.

00:18:05.893 --> 00:18:07.114

But what is also true is

00:18:07.134 --> 00:18:08.294

that those are not good.

00:18:09.015 --> 00:18:09.295

You know,

00:18:09.335 --> 00:18:10.855

they acknowledge that that is there,

00:18:11.596 --> 00:18:13.336

but they teach, well,

00:18:13.957 --> 00:18:14.897

don't lean into those.

00:18:15.257 --> 00:18:15.557

Yeah.

00:18:16.297 --> 00:18:16.498

Yeah.

00:18:16.558 --> 00:18:18.478

That's it is a super harmful

00:18:18.538 --> 00:18:19.979

part of the culture.

00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:22.601

that we are taught to sort

00:18:22.641 --> 00:18:24.362

of suppress anything that

00:18:24.462 --> 00:18:25.822

is different about us.

00:18:26.623 --> 00:18:28.883

And I don't know if you, I mean,

00:18:28.903 --> 00:18:30.904

you're a musician and I am too.

00:18:31.204 --> 00:18:33.086

And so songs always really

00:18:33.126 --> 00:18:33.866

resonate with me.

00:18:33.926 --> 00:18:35.207

So those songs we learned as

00:18:35.347 --> 00:18:37.308

children in primary are still with me.

00:18:37.328 --> 00:18:38.488

I can still sing all of them,

00:18:38.668 --> 00:18:40.193

all the words, everything.

00:18:40.511 --> 00:18:41.512

But then also,

00:18:42.112 --> 00:18:43.473

I don't know if you know The Killers,

00:18:43.793 --> 00:18:44.773

but Brandon Flowers,

00:18:44.793 --> 00:18:46.134

who's the lead singer of The Killers,

00:18:46.614 --> 00:18:48.495

was either formerly a Mormon or still is,

00:18:48.515 --> 00:18:49.175

I'm not sure.

00:18:49.575 --> 00:18:50.715

But he wrote a song at one

00:18:50.755 --> 00:18:53.936

point where the chorus is, I've got soul,

00:18:53.976 --> 00:18:54.976

but I'm not a soldier.

00:18:55.416 --> 00:18:56.357

And that was about his

00:18:56.397 --> 00:18:57.977

decision not to serve a mission.

00:18:58.437 --> 00:19:00.098

And it was groundbreaking

00:19:00.138 --> 00:19:02.638

for him and his family for him to not go.

00:19:03.139 --> 00:19:04.919

And I think about that so often.

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.440

And you telling your story

00:19:06.500 --> 00:19:07.780

made me think about that again.

00:19:08.360 --> 00:19:09.822

It's like they do expect you

00:19:09.862 --> 00:19:12.065

to be a little automaton,

00:19:12.506 --> 00:19:13.868

fit yourself into a mold.

00:19:14.228 --> 00:19:15.470

You're all wearing the same thing.

00:19:15.490 --> 00:19:16.752

You all have the same haircut.

00:19:17.593 --> 00:19:18.574

You're all going to have.

00:19:19.035 --> 00:19:20.036

And the other thing I found

00:19:20.196 --> 00:19:22.399

so interesting is listening

00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.663

to men come back from their missions.

00:19:25.243 --> 00:19:26.463

and bear their testimony.

00:19:27.084 --> 00:19:28.204

And they sort of have a

00:19:28.244 --> 00:19:29.704

little to their voice that

00:19:29.744 --> 00:19:32.005

reminds me of the MTC and

00:19:32.145 --> 00:19:33.205

all the missionaries sort

00:19:33.225 --> 00:19:34.166

of talk like this.

00:19:34.606 --> 00:19:35.586

And it was always a little

00:19:35.626 --> 00:19:36.666

jarring to me to think

00:19:36.686 --> 00:19:38.347

that's not the person that

00:19:38.407 --> 00:19:40.547

left at the time being faithful.

00:19:40.587 --> 00:19:40.947

I was like,

00:19:41.048 --> 00:19:42.428

isn't that great that they've

00:19:42.548 --> 00:19:44.508

now adopted this way of

00:19:44.589 --> 00:19:45.989

speaking because they agree

00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:47.129

with the other missionaries

00:19:47.149 --> 00:19:47.569

and everything.

00:19:47.589 --> 00:19:48.970

But looking back on it now,

00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:50.830

I feel sad because it's

00:19:50.870 --> 00:19:52.911

like losing a piece of yourself.

00:19:53.471 --> 00:19:54.732

to not even be able to have

00:19:54.752 --> 00:19:55.572

your own voice.

00:19:55.732 --> 00:19:57.614

Yeah, no, that's a very, um,

00:19:57.714 --> 00:19:59.795

insightful takeaway, but I don't think,

00:19:59.795 --> 00:20:00.196

um,

00:20:00.236 --> 00:20:01.897

would be my first one just because I was,

00:20:01.918 --> 00:20:04.999

you know, a part of it on that, uh,

00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:06.560

on the, from the audience.

00:20:06.695 --> 00:20:07.433

Um, but yeah,

00:20:07.785 --> 00:20:10.867

that idea of a kind of a missionary voice,

00:20:11.126 --> 00:20:14.210

um, does exist in that kind of, uh,

00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:15.010

kind of wavelength.

00:20:15.230 --> 00:20:17.953

And like you said, at the, at the time, um,

00:20:18.033 --> 00:20:19.494

it was this idea of like, okay,

00:20:19.554 --> 00:20:21.478

like you went out a boy and

00:20:21.498 --> 00:20:22.699

you came back a man.

00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:23.920

And that was evidence of

00:20:23.940 --> 00:20:26.442

this godly man was like, uh,

00:20:26.482 --> 00:20:27.482

you see the world differently.

00:20:27.502 --> 00:20:29.343

You might even now talk differently.

00:20:31.678 --> 00:20:32.980

I feel like if anyone's been

00:20:33.040 --> 00:20:35.361

to a missionary who's come home,

00:20:36.302 --> 00:20:36.823

it's pretty...

00:20:37.788 --> 00:20:39.289

common to have someone

00:20:39.349 --> 00:20:40.790

speaking now in english

00:20:41.631 --> 00:20:42.591

forget maybe an english

00:20:42.632 --> 00:20:43.192

word because they've been

00:20:43.252 --> 00:20:44.293

speaking spanish for the

00:20:44.313 --> 00:20:45.374

last two years or they kind

00:20:45.434 --> 00:20:46.234

of you know struggle with

00:20:46.274 --> 00:20:47.835

that too and that just kind

00:20:47.855 --> 00:20:49.176

of was another kind of rite

00:20:49.216 --> 00:20:50.637

of passage of like that's

00:20:50.657 --> 00:20:51.958

just a thing that shows

00:20:51.978 --> 00:20:53.059

that you really did the

00:20:53.099 --> 00:20:55.641

mission well as yeah you're

00:20:55.661 --> 00:20:57.642

forgetting your native

00:20:57.682 --> 00:20:58.703

language because you were

00:20:58.723 --> 00:21:00.565

so immersed in serving the

00:21:00.625 --> 00:21:02.526

people with their native

00:21:02.566 --> 00:21:03.527

language and being an

00:21:03.587 --> 00:21:05.068

example of christ for them and

00:21:05.809 --> 00:21:07.170

there were these little

00:21:07.732 --> 00:21:09.113

cultural markers as a

00:21:09.193 --> 00:21:11.035

missionary to kind of show

00:21:11.896 --> 00:21:13.457

that you did it and you

00:21:13.817 --> 00:21:14.458

were there and you've

00:21:14.658 --> 00:21:15.599

accomplished these things.

00:21:16.260 --> 00:21:20.124

This could exist in a bubble in Utah,

00:21:20.164 --> 00:21:20.945

or I don't know.

00:21:21.445 --> 00:21:22.752

I just know from my

00:21:22.752 --> 00:21:23.608

or my experience,

00:21:23.914 --> 00:21:24.409

there were kind of

00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:25.831

these cultural markers of like,

00:21:26.313 --> 00:21:28.033

yeah, like I went and I did this.

00:21:28.073 --> 00:21:29.034

I learned the language.

00:21:29.114 --> 00:21:30.554

I had the voice now.

00:21:30.574 --> 00:21:31.894

I've earned it, you know,

00:21:31.914 --> 00:21:32.755

or whatever it might be.

00:21:34.175 --> 00:21:35.615

It was all part of kind of, yeah,

00:21:36.255 --> 00:21:38.116

turning into this version

00:21:38.596 --> 00:21:40.777

that at least I thought was,

00:21:40.797 --> 00:21:41.797

that's what it should be

00:21:41.917 --> 00:21:43.497

when you come home and there you go.

00:21:43.557 --> 00:21:44.618

And now you got the rest of

00:21:44.638 --> 00:21:47.458

your life to live as a return missionary.

00:21:47.478 --> 00:21:48.448

You kind of got that mark.

00:21:48.706 --> 00:21:50.328

Yeah, and hearing you talk about it,

00:21:51.329 --> 00:21:52.911

it reminds me how,

00:21:53.164 --> 00:21:54.814

sad and horrible it is

00:21:54.935 --> 00:21:56.476

that there's a celebration

00:21:56.636 --> 00:21:59.980

of the erasure of your identity.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.262

And when you put it in those terms,

00:22:02.617 --> 00:22:04.557

I just think cult, you know,

00:22:05.037 --> 00:22:05.938

and I know a lot of people

00:22:05.978 --> 00:22:07.738

get super offended when we

00:22:07.858 --> 00:22:10.079

use that word in relation

00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.439

to the LDS church, because even I,

00:22:12.479 --> 00:22:14.179

as a younger person was like, well,

00:22:14.199 --> 00:22:15.120

I'm allowed to talk to my

00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.500

family because they're all members.

00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:19.180

But if they weren't members,

00:22:19.520 --> 00:22:20.481

they would discourage me

00:22:20.521 --> 00:22:22.521

from talking to my family members because,

00:22:22.601 --> 00:22:22.781

you know,

00:22:22.801 --> 00:22:23.581

we're not supposed to take

00:22:23.621 --> 00:22:24.821

counsel from non-believers.

00:22:25.922 --> 00:22:28.022

So, you know, it does have those markers.

00:22:28.042 --> 00:22:29.122

And I think I've mentioned

00:22:29.142 --> 00:22:29.902

on my channel a lot,

00:22:29.942 --> 00:22:30.943

the work of Dr. Steven

00:22:30.983 --> 00:22:32.323

Hassan and his bite model.

00:22:33.003 --> 00:22:33.723

And that's something we're

00:22:33.743 --> 00:22:35.144

going to unpack at a later time.

00:22:35.284 --> 00:22:37.565

But applying those

00:22:37.585 --> 00:22:39.346

characteristics to the Mormon church,

00:22:39.366 --> 00:22:39.966

if they're trying to

00:22:40.046 --> 00:22:41.247

influence your behavior,

00:22:41.687 --> 00:22:43.287

the information you can receive,

00:22:43.668 --> 00:22:45.188

your thoughts and your emotions,

00:22:45.548 --> 00:22:47.209

those are all markers.

00:22:47.671 --> 00:22:48.851

of a high control group,

00:22:49.332 --> 00:22:51.984

also known as a cult.

00:22:52.314 --> 00:22:53.474

I wanted to ask you one more thing.

00:22:53.674 --> 00:22:56.375

When you got to Canada or

00:22:56.415 --> 00:22:57.736

when you left for Canada,

00:22:58.236 --> 00:22:59.796

did they keep your passport,

00:23:00.177 --> 00:23:01.097

the leaders of the church?

00:23:01.228 --> 00:23:03.174

Um, so I've heard that that does happen.

00:23:03.514 --> 00:23:05.495

Um, that didn't happen with us.

00:23:05.625 --> 00:23:07.805

our mission boundaries did dip

00:23:07.865 --> 00:23:09.946

into Minnesota, Minnesota.

00:23:10.066 --> 00:23:12.627

So yeah, exactly.

00:23:12.927 --> 00:23:13.669

So I served,

00:23:13.871 --> 00:23:15.612

almost five months in Minnesota,

00:23:16.092 --> 00:23:17.193

which I had to honestly re

00:23:17.453 --> 00:23:21.314

relearn miles per hour and, um, uh,

00:23:21.334 --> 00:23:22.355

Fahrenheit and all this stuff.

00:23:22.415 --> 00:23:24.536

It was a funny going back to

00:23:24.716 --> 00:23:25.296

everything I knew.

00:23:26.158 --> 00:23:28.176

But so, yeah, we had our passports.

00:23:28.695 --> 00:23:31.357

I think it might depend on

00:23:31.397 --> 00:23:32.758

where in the world you might be.

00:23:32.978 --> 00:23:33.958

Yeah.

00:23:33.998 --> 00:23:35.519

But for us, we did have our passports.

00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:35.679

Well,

00:23:35.699 --> 00:23:37.180

I'm glad to hear that because I have

00:23:37.220 --> 00:23:40.182

heard rumors that when you

00:23:40.242 --> 00:23:41.683

either when you take off or

00:23:41.703 --> 00:23:42.903

when you land that your

00:23:42.923 --> 00:23:44.504

mission president keeps your passport.

00:23:44.925 --> 00:23:45.705

And that's just kind of

00:23:45.725 --> 00:23:49.027

another way of controlling, you know,

00:23:49.087 --> 00:23:49.827

where you go.

00:23:50.048 --> 00:23:52.849

So at that point, if you wanted to go home,

00:23:53.510 --> 00:23:54.030

you'd have to.

00:23:55.508 --> 00:23:56.308

to the guy who has your

00:23:56.328 --> 00:23:57.889

passport yeah exactly and i

00:23:57.929 --> 00:23:59.009

think that's a hard part of

00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:01.350

it that you know it's hard

00:24:01.390 --> 00:24:02.651

for all missionaries but i

00:24:02.691 --> 00:24:04.192

think particularly for men

00:24:04.252 --> 00:24:05.732

i want i want to honor that

00:24:05.792 --> 00:24:08.193

experience to not be

00:24:08.233 --> 00:24:09.334

able to make a decision

00:24:09.494 --> 00:24:11.495

about what you you know

00:24:11.535 --> 00:24:12.835

what you want for your life

00:24:12.995 --> 00:24:14.256

if you suddenly decide on

00:24:14.296 --> 00:24:15.936

your mission this is not

00:24:15.976 --> 00:24:17.297

for me i'm having a super

00:24:17.317 --> 00:24:19.098

bad time and i want to go home

00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:20.300

You can't just leave.

00:24:20.340 --> 00:24:21.581

You have to go talk to your

00:24:21.621 --> 00:24:22.362

priesthood leader.

00:24:22.883 --> 00:24:24.545

And even if they don't have your passport,

00:24:24.585 --> 00:24:26.247

that's sort of the expectation anyway.

00:24:26.307 --> 00:24:26.827

Right.

00:24:26.887 --> 00:24:27.148

Yeah.

00:24:27.468 --> 00:24:27.748

Yeah.

00:24:29.270 --> 00:24:31.192

There was like one story.

00:24:31.373 --> 00:24:31.813

And again,

00:24:31.933 --> 00:24:33.155

it could have been just a story

00:24:34.937 --> 00:24:35.698

from my time as a

00:24:35.738 --> 00:24:36.779

missionary where someone's

00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:39.222

parent came up and got them.

00:24:39.906 --> 00:24:40.586

and took them home.

00:24:41.267 --> 00:24:42.587

Whether or not that is how

00:24:43.268 --> 00:24:44.808

seamlessly it went, I don't know.

00:24:46.069 --> 00:24:46.489

But yeah,

00:24:46.549 --> 00:24:48.010

you would have to talk to the

00:24:48.030 --> 00:24:48.730

mission president.

00:24:49.670 --> 00:24:52.232

Without being in those conversations,

00:24:52.312 --> 00:24:54.172

I can almost guarantee that

00:24:54.292 --> 00:24:55.453

the conversation would be,

00:24:56.293 --> 00:24:58.034

don't go home and try to

00:24:58.054 --> 00:25:01.175

convince that missionary to not go home.

00:25:01.816 --> 00:25:04.638

But I mean, I had at that time, again,

00:25:04.678 --> 00:25:05.998

my mindset was being out

00:25:06.018 --> 00:25:07.199

here is the best thing possible.

00:25:07.767 --> 00:25:08.929

And I feel bad about that

00:25:08.949 --> 00:25:09.570

because I did have

00:25:09.630 --> 00:25:10.731

companions where being out

00:25:10.752 --> 00:25:11.693

there was a struggle.

00:25:12.394 --> 00:25:14.898

And I was like, why?

00:25:15.098 --> 00:25:17.842

You know, why do you want to be back home?

00:25:18.042 --> 00:25:18.864

This is like the greatest

00:25:18.884 --> 00:25:19.825

thing that we could be doing.

00:25:20.146 --> 00:25:21.127

While at the same time,

00:25:21.267 --> 00:25:23.210

I was really struggling with my own

00:25:24.374 --> 00:25:28.295

loneliness and homesickness.

00:25:29.155 --> 00:25:31.035

And so I didn't give them

00:25:31.095 --> 00:25:33.176

the same amount of grace that I was,

00:25:33.196 --> 00:25:34.036

you know,

00:25:34.056 --> 00:25:35.696

would have liked someone to give to me.

00:25:37.557 --> 00:25:40.217

But I just didn't understand.

00:25:40.396 --> 00:25:40.818

Because again,

00:25:41.158 --> 00:25:42.438

the way that I viewed it all

00:25:42.478 --> 00:25:43.898

growing up was like serving

00:25:43.938 --> 00:25:45.719

a mission is the pinnacle

00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:47.359

of my young little life here.

00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:48.819

that I have so far.

00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:50.300

And this is the greatest

00:25:50.340 --> 00:25:52.681

thing I have a chance to do.

00:25:53.201 --> 00:25:54.222

And I took, honestly,

00:25:54.242 --> 00:25:56.803

a lot of pride in being an Elder Johnson.

00:25:56.963 --> 00:26:00.124

Missionaries, men are elder,

00:26:00.164 --> 00:26:01.265

whatever your last name is.

00:26:01.725 --> 00:26:04.166

And so my dad was Elder Johnson.

00:26:04.626 --> 00:26:05.726

I had a brother out on a

00:26:05.767 --> 00:26:07.087

mission at the same time as me.

00:26:07.267 --> 00:26:09.048

He was Elder Johnson, but in Oregon.

00:26:09.508 --> 00:26:11.469

Then I was Elder Johnson in Canada.

00:26:11.549 --> 00:26:12.790

So I took a lot of pride in

00:26:13.450 --> 00:26:14.931

continuing the tradition and

00:26:14.991 --> 00:26:16.112

being kind of the next

00:26:16.152 --> 00:26:18.133

generation of stuff and i

00:26:18.153 --> 00:26:18.853

just didn't get it when

00:26:18.873 --> 00:26:20.094

other elders didn't feel

00:26:20.114 --> 00:26:21.395

the same i was like this is

00:26:21.415 --> 00:26:22.716

a legacy thing this is cool

00:26:22.756 --> 00:26:24.437

we're building this they're

00:26:24.457 --> 00:26:25.537

like i just want to go home

00:26:25.557 --> 00:26:26.698

what are you talking about

00:26:26.778 --> 00:26:28.339

this is you know you don't

00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:29.740

like the minus forty degree

00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:30.600

weather i don't know what

00:26:30.620 --> 00:26:32.922

you're talking about um but

00:26:32.962 --> 00:26:34.463

yeah that that pressure and

00:26:34.643 --> 00:26:36.324

i was as a missionary i

00:26:36.504 --> 00:26:37.825

always appreciated

00:26:39.098 --> 00:26:40.418

And look to the sister

00:26:40.458 --> 00:26:41.799

missionaries because they

00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:42.979

didn't have that same

00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:45.441

institutional pressure.

00:26:45.921 --> 00:26:46.961

I can't speak about their

00:26:47.021 --> 00:26:47.901

pressures because I don't

00:26:47.921 --> 00:26:49.582

know whether it's family or whatnot.

00:26:49.682 --> 00:26:51.362

But I was always impressed

00:26:51.382 --> 00:26:52.202

because I'd always ask them,

00:26:52.263 --> 00:26:54.263

why are why did you decide to come out?

00:26:55.163 --> 00:26:55.864

Because I knew they didn't

00:26:56.084 --> 00:26:57.104

have that same pressure.

00:26:58.156 --> 00:26:59.137

institutional pressure.

00:26:59.217 --> 00:26:59.917

And I was always,

00:27:00.117 --> 00:27:01.458

I always respected their

00:27:02.139 --> 00:27:03.139

reasoning because it was

00:27:03.199 --> 00:27:05.581

always or very commonly

00:27:05.721 --> 00:27:06.902

rooted in this really

00:27:06.982 --> 00:27:08.983

personal kind of spiritual

00:27:09.864 --> 00:27:11.204

experience where they felt

00:27:11.224 --> 00:27:12.365

like they were called to do that.

00:27:12.385 --> 00:27:13.026

And I was always,

00:27:14.006 --> 00:27:16.388

and even today if anyone

00:27:16.508 --> 00:27:17.548

feels like they're doing

00:27:17.628 --> 00:27:18.669

something out of kind of

00:27:18.689 --> 00:27:20.971

this deeper spiritual thing and really

00:27:22.021 --> 00:27:23.021

feel deeply about it,

00:27:23.421 --> 00:27:24.542

I'm still impressed by that.

00:27:25.242 --> 00:27:27.323

Um, so I always, as a missionary,

00:27:27.343 --> 00:27:28.583

I always leaned on the sisters.

00:27:28.603 --> 00:27:30.083

I was like, I can trust,

00:27:30.724 --> 00:27:31.664

I feel a lot more.

00:27:31.744 --> 00:27:32.704

I can trust on you guys, uh, to,

00:27:33.124 --> 00:27:36.645

I don't know, to be out here and want to,

00:27:36.665 --> 00:27:38.426

and, you know, kind of want to do it.

00:27:38.672 --> 00:27:39.146

yeah,

00:27:39.186 --> 00:27:41.027

that's an interesting take thinking about,

00:27:41.063 --> 00:27:42.569

the difference between,

00:27:42.569 --> 00:27:45.063

the male missionaries or the, you know,

00:27:45.123 --> 00:27:46.183

the young men growing up

00:27:46.223 --> 00:27:47.924

being really pressured into

00:27:47.964 --> 00:27:49.804

the mission and the young

00:27:49.824 --> 00:27:50.925

women previously,

00:27:50.945 --> 00:27:51.965

at least when I was growing up,

00:27:52.025 --> 00:27:54.306

it was a choice if you didn't get married,

00:27:54.526 --> 00:27:54.826

you know,

00:27:55.306 --> 00:27:56.366

if you weren't already married

00:27:56.406 --> 00:27:56.947

by the time you were

00:28:01.528 --> 00:28:03.170

to think about yeah you're

00:28:03.230 --> 00:28:04.010

out there because you've

00:28:04.030 --> 00:28:05.111

felt all this societal

00:28:05.131 --> 00:28:06.392

pressure but you think it's

00:28:06.412 --> 00:28:07.233

the right thing to do and

00:28:07.253 --> 00:28:08.074

it's a legacy and

00:28:08.114 --> 00:28:09.495

everything but but having

00:28:09.535 --> 00:28:11.577

the females choose to go

00:28:11.697 --> 00:28:12.758

that does sort of like add

00:28:12.778 --> 00:28:14.359

a little bit of i don't

00:28:14.379 --> 00:28:15.300

know strength to that

00:28:15.340 --> 00:28:16.381

choice so i can see where

00:28:16.401 --> 00:28:17.962

you might have leaned on

00:28:17.982 --> 00:28:19.764

them a little more yeah and

00:28:19.784 --> 00:28:20.825

again that was you know

00:28:20.845 --> 00:28:21.649

definitely my um

00:28:21.689 --> 00:28:24.900

perspective at the time um where i

00:28:25.354 --> 00:28:26.035

Throughout my mission,

00:28:26.095 --> 00:28:27.276

I had chances be in

00:28:27.297 --> 00:28:28.277

leadership and whatnot.

00:28:28.337 --> 00:28:29.639

And so if I needed

00:28:30.280 --> 00:28:32.262

assistance or help or just an example,

00:28:32.382 --> 00:28:34.684

I always turned to the sisters.

00:28:35.104 --> 00:28:36.465

And I always expected, honestly,

00:28:36.505 --> 00:28:38.747

they were... In my mission,

00:28:38.787 --> 00:28:40.209

my anecdotal experience,

00:28:41.034 --> 00:28:41.954

they worked harder.

00:28:42.715 --> 00:28:43.896

They were kinder.

00:28:44.697 --> 00:28:45.197

They were...

00:28:46.270 --> 00:28:47.871

more successful in terms of

00:28:48.631 --> 00:28:49.491

getting people to come to

00:28:49.511 --> 00:28:50.572

church and join the church.

00:28:51.252 --> 00:28:53.773

So why not?

00:28:53.793 --> 00:28:54.733

I chalked that up a little

00:28:54.754 --> 00:28:56.474

bit to the flirt to convert factor.

00:28:56.494 --> 00:28:57.315

That could be a thing.

00:28:57.375 --> 00:28:58.335

That could be a thing.

00:28:58.935 --> 00:29:02.337

They were also older, typically being,

00:29:02.557 --> 00:29:02.877

you know,

00:29:03.397 --> 00:29:04.998

at nineteen years old now is

00:29:05.418 --> 00:29:06.158

when women can go,

00:29:06.218 --> 00:29:07.259

men can go at eighteen.

00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:08.639

Yeah.

00:29:08.679 --> 00:29:10.500

The reasons for that, there are none.

00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:13.021

It's just it is what it is, is the reason.

00:29:13.482 --> 00:29:13.882

So I could

00:29:14.721 --> 00:29:15.661

it'll play a role as well.

00:29:16.222 --> 00:29:17.542

But yeah,

00:29:17.862 --> 00:29:20.584

I always just appreciated the

00:29:20.624 --> 00:29:22.044

work of the sister missionaries.

00:29:23.865 --> 00:29:24.946

They just were better at it.

00:29:26.246 --> 00:29:27.747

Well, and to your point, though,

00:29:28.067 --> 00:29:29.968

what the qualities that you mentioned,

00:29:30.068 --> 00:29:32.629

hardworking, more kind,

00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:34.110

more successful at getting

00:29:34.170 --> 00:29:35.291

people to sort of

00:29:36.550 --> 00:29:37.590

take the lessons.

00:29:38.611 --> 00:29:39.491

Those were sort of the

00:29:39.551 --> 00:29:40.772

pressures that I felt as a

00:29:40.812 --> 00:29:41.873

young woman in the church.

00:29:42.093 --> 00:29:43.473

I felt pressure to work hard.

00:29:43.994 --> 00:29:45.354

I felt pressure to be kind.

00:29:45.554 --> 00:29:46.835

I felt pressure to be more

00:29:46.875 --> 00:29:47.895

spiritual than the men

00:29:48.396 --> 00:29:51.457

because I did sort of feel like, you know,

00:29:51.877 --> 00:29:53.378

men are manly men and women

00:29:53.418 --> 00:29:55.039

are the spiritual nurturers.

00:29:55.099 --> 00:29:55.459

And so,

00:29:56.078 --> 00:29:57.319

If there's a man struggling

00:29:57.339 --> 00:29:58.200

with his testimony,

00:29:58.240 --> 00:29:59.882

you can help him with that.

00:30:00.823 --> 00:30:02.144

And I always felt that

00:30:02.224 --> 00:30:03.726

pressure of like if I was

00:30:03.766 --> 00:30:05.287

dating somebody who was in the church,

00:30:05.307 --> 00:30:07.409

which only happened a handful of times,

00:30:08.070 --> 00:30:10.312

I felt pressure to be more

00:30:10.352 --> 00:30:11.794

spiritual than he was

00:30:11.854 --> 00:30:13.035

because if there was going

00:30:13.055 --> 00:30:13.856

to be a struggle,

00:30:14.637 --> 00:30:15.878

I didn't want it to be because of me.

00:30:15.898 --> 00:30:16.398

Yeah.

00:30:17.439 --> 00:30:18.479

You know,

00:30:18.499 --> 00:30:19.620

so it's interesting the different

00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:21.440

roles that we have.

00:30:22.120 --> 00:30:23.060

But you mentioned you were

00:30:23.241 --> 00:30:24.461

you felt some loneliness

00:30:24.501 --> 00:30:25.881

and homesickness on your mission.

00:30:26.421 --> 00:30:27.502

So mental health wise,

00:30:27.542 --> 00:30:28.702

how did you deal with that

00:30:28.922 --> 00:30:29.742

when you were out there?

00:30:30.582 --> 00:30:30.862

Yeah.

00:30:30.942 --> 00:30:32.523

So, yes,

00:30:32.803 --> 00:30:35.924

I wasn't diagnosed with anything

00:30:36.084 --> 00:30:38.544

prior to my mission,

00:30:38.584 --> 00:30:40.605

like days after I got home.

00:30:41.496 --> 00:30:44.498

And I'm so grateful for my mom for this.

00:30:44.638 --> 00:30:45.478

She took me to a

00:30:45.518 --> 00:30:46.679

psychiatrist and was able

00:30:46.699 --> 00:30:48.900

to get some diagnoses and

00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:49.941

get on some medication.

00:30:50.001 --> 00:30:52.003

So I didn't know at the time,

00:30:52.023 --> 00:30:53.864

but I for two years I was.

00:30:54.572 --> 00:30:56.774

living with undiagnosed depression,

00:30:56.814 --> 00:30:58.375

anxiety, and ADHD.

00:30:59.097 --> 00:31:01.219

And so with the homesickness

00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:02.040

and loneliness,

00:31:02.741 --> 00:31:03.721

how I dealt with it at the

00:31:03.801 --> 00:31:05.424

time isn't something I

00:31:05.444 --> 00:31:07.306

would recommend to anyone now,

00:31:07.906 --> 00:31:11.269

but the idea was I'm here for God.

00:31:12.089 --> 00:31:15.312

I'll put that on God and

00:31:15.352 --> 00:31:18.375

I'll trust him to take care of that.

00:31:19.379 --> 00:31:24.287

What that did was provide relief for a day,

00:31:24.327 --> 00:31:25.689

maybe, or for a time.

00:31:25.864 --> 00:31:26.311

know.

00:31:26.755 --> 00:31:28.256

nothing was being healed by that.

00:31:28.777 --> 00:31:29.697

It just kind of delayed

00:31:30.138 --> 00:31:31.840

things to a later date,

00:31:31.900 --> 00:31:33.100

which was two years later,

00:31:33.261 --> 00:31:35.422

and then I could handle that.

00:31:35.502 --> 00:31:36.964

But mean, a lot of it,

00:31:37.424 --> 00:31:39.306

I tried to just, I mean,

00:31:39.666 --> 00:31:41.267

there's a story that's

00:31:41.307 --> 00:31:43.349

shared from a former

00:31:43.409 --> 00:31:44.970

prophet of the LDS faith,

00:31:45.010 --> 00:31:45.870

Gordon B. Hinckley,

00:31:46.511 --> 00:31:48.532

where he shares a story

00:31:48.552 --> 00:31:49.533

where he was on his mission

00:31:50.213 --> 00:31:51.714

And he wrote to his dad

00:31:51.774 --> 00:31:53.555

about how hard it was and

00:31:54.975 --> 00:31:55.976

just the difficulties.

00:31:56.016 --> 00:31:56.756

And his dad said,

00:31:57.276 --> 00:31:59.037

forget yourself and get to work.

00:32:00.278 --> 00:32:01.979

And that was the message of

00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:03.439

President Hinckley's

00:32:03.639 --> 00:32:05.260

address that he was giving at the time.

00:32:05.620 --> 00:32:07.841

And that was shared all the

00:32:07.881 --> 00:32:09.142

time to the missionaries.

00:32:09.462 --> 00:32:10.222

So I took that in.

00:32:10.543 --> 00:32:12.203

Well, yeah, I'm struggling with this,

00:32:12.243 --> 00:32:13.264

this and this and this.

00:32:13.324 --> 00:32:14.484

But the people out there

00:32:14.524 --> 00:32:15.405

don't have the truth.

00:32:16.074 --> 00:32:17.075

And that matters more than

00:32:17.095 --> 00:32:18.157

whatever I'm going through.

00:32:18.838 --> 00:32:20.039

And what I'm going through

00:32:22.082 --> 00:32:24.024

could be the devil trying

00:32:24.044 --> 00:32:26.527

to stop me from sharing the good news.

00:32:26.828 --> 00:32:29.152

So I never completely...

00:32:30.129 --> 00:32:30.569

thankfully,

00:32:31.110 --> 00:32:32.231

attributed my mental health

00:32:32.251 --> 00:32:34.853

struggles to the adversary, to Satan,

00:32:34.973 --> 00:32:36.655

to the devil, to like darkness, whatever.

00:32:36.735 --> 00:32:38.496

I grew up in a home where we

00:32:38.516 --> 00:32:40.138

could talk about stuff in a

00:32:40.158 --> 00:32:42.020

healthy way or in a healthy

00:32:42.040 --> 00:32:43.301

enough way where it wasn't

00:32:43.321 --> 00:32:45.283

labeled like this is the

00:32:45.323 --> 00:32:47.685

devil trying to sway you.

00:32:47.825 --> 00:32:50.548

But yeah, forget yourself and get to work.

00:32:51.588 --> 00:32:52.428

as a missionary,

00:32:52.748 --> 00:32:55.289

that was any time I had struggles.

00:32:55.669 --> 00:32:57.610

And the only time you can be

00:32:57.670 --> 00:32:58.610

alone as a missionary is

00:32:58.630 --> 00:32:59.350

like in the bathroom

00:32:59.370 --> 00:33:01.070

because you're working two by two.

00:33:01.310 --> 00:33:02.431

You can't be in the same

00:33:02.751 --> 00:33:05.071

apartment and not be in the same room.

00:33:05.932 --> 00:33:06.692

Those were at least the

00:33:06.712 --> 00:33:09.833

rules at the time for me a decade ago.

00:33:10.273 --> 00:33:11.573

So I would spend time in the

00:33:11.613 --> 00:33:15.694

bathroom crying and then come out and

00:33:16.770 --> 00:33:18.111

look good as new or maybe at

00:33:18.231 --> 00:33:18.931

least I thought I did.

00:33:18.971 --> 00:33:20.812

I probably was so puffy and

00:33:20.832 --> 00:33:23.313

it was so evident I'd been

00:33:23.353 --> 00:33:23.974

struggling in there.

00:33:23.994 --> 00:33:24.534

But yeah,

00:33:24.654 --> 00:33:25.535

and then just come out with a

00:33:25.575 --> 00:33:26.535

smile and say, okay,

00:33:26.555 --> 00:33:27.956

let's go and whatever.

00:33:27.996 --> 00:33:29.136

So as I mentioned,

00:33:29.176 --> 00:33:30.657

I didn't really deal with it.

00:33:31.057 --> 00:33:32.997

Just kind of put it to the

00:33:33.057 --> 00:33:34.358

side as much as I could.

00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:36.619

And it wasn't until I got home,

00:33:36.719 --> 00:33:37.820

I really started addressing

00:33:37.860 --> 00:33:40.521

things in a real healthy way.

00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:41.280

Yeah,

00:33:41.340 --> 00:33:43.501

so this is one of the reasons why I

00:33:43.601 --> 00:33:46.281

say that the LDS Church

00:33:46.341 --> 00:33:48.702

tries to control your thoughts.

00:33:49.162 --> 00:33:51.603

Because when a prophet makes a declaration,

00:33:52.623 --> 00:33:53.784

that's considered scripture.

00:33:54.324 --> 00:33:55.764

And it's considered to be

00:33:56.084 --> 00:33:57.104

just the word of God,

00:33:57.144 --> 00:33:58.965

just like it's printed in the Bible,

00:33:59.165 --> 00:33:59.425

right?

00:33:59.485 --> 00:34:02.066

So with President Hinckley says,

00:34:02.126 --> 00:34:03.506

forget yourself and go to work.

00:34:04.206 --> 00:34:05.967

That is a thought stopping technique.

00:34:06.427 --> 00:34:08.068

that basically teaches us to

00:34:08.148 --> 00:34:12.671

stifle our feelings and to think about,

00:34:12.731 --> 00:34:13.531

like you were saying,

00:34:13.591 --> 00:34:14.712

the greater good of

00:34:15.012 --> 00:34:15.892

spreading the gospel

00:34:15.932 --> 00:34:17.873

message over our own needs,

00:34:17.973 --> 00:34:19.154

over our own mental health.

00:34:19.754 --> 00:34:21.075

And so that's one of the

00:34:21.115 --> 00:34:23.236

things that I had a lot of

00:34:23.296 --> 00:34:25.057

trouble with wrestling with

00:34:25.117 --> 00:34:26.158

coming out of the church

00:34:26.618 --> 00:34:27.759

was all of those thought

00:34:27.799 --> 00:34:28.979

stopping techniques and all

00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:30.780

of those platitudes and

00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:31.941

mantras and quotes that we

00:34:31.961 --> 00:34:33.302

get in general conference where

00:34:33.822 --> 00:34:35.382

we're told that like you

00:34:35.402 --> 00:34:37.223

said if we're having mental

00:34:37.263 --> 00:34:38.363

health issues it's the

00:34:38.423 --> 00:34:39.644

adversary trying to tempt

00:34:39.764 --> 00:34:41.064

us or if we're feeling

00:34:41.084 --> 00:34:42.144

depressed we're not praying

00:34:42.184 --> 00:34:43.005

hard enough or we're not

00:34:43.045 --> 00:34:44.605

faithful enough so those

00:34:44.625 --> 00:34:46.046

are super harmful messages

00:34:46.666 --> 00:34:48.706

um i'm curious about you

00:34:49.247 --> 00:34:50.727

got home and a week later

00:34:50.787 --> 00:34:52.487

your mom had you in the

00:34:52.547 --> 00:34:53.668

office of a psychiatrist

00:34:53.768 --> 00:34:55.448

what was it that she saw or

00:34:55.508 --> 00:34:57.629

heard that gave her concern

00:34:58.029 --> 00:35:00.490

yeah so as i mentioned before we couldn't

00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:02.882

talk with our families.

00:35:03.678 --> 00:35:05.980

the phone or over like a

00:35:06.040 --> 00:35:08.081

video message um except for

00:35:08.121 --> 00:35:09.162

twice a year mother's day

00:35:09.182 --> 00:35:10.703

and christmas but we could

00:35:10.803 --> 00:35:12.765

email every week so on

00:35:12.825 --> 00:35:15.387

mondays um that was our day

00:35:15.407 --> 00:35:16.608

to send emails and read

00:35:16.628 --> 00:35:18.730

emails so throughout my two

00:35:18.770 --> 00:35:20.071

years i was open with my

00:35:20.111 --> 00:35:22.272

mom about feeling lonely

00:35:22.332 --> 00:35:24.674

feeling anxious um and

00:35:24.694 --> 00:35:26.475

these different feelings

00:35:26.495 --> 00:35:27.977

that i had it was always

00:35:28.017 --> 00:35:29.718

followed up with however

00:35:30.871 --> 00:35:32.672

I understand that God has greater plan,

00:35:32.692 --> 00:35:33.432

you know, or whatever.

00:35:33.452 --> 00:35:35.973

So it's never this call for help,

00:35:36.033 --> 00:35:38.054

but honestly, and I feel like this is,

00:35:38.154 --> 00:35:40.875

you know, shared a lot in, in any,

00:35:42.276 --> 00:35:42.936

in a lot of Christian

00:35:42.956 --> 00:35:44.217

denominations about a big

00:35:44.257 --> 00:35:46.578

struggle and then how God helped you.

00:35:46.598 --> 00:35:46.858

Right.

00:35:46.918 --> 00:35:47.038

So,

00:35:47.738 --> 00:35:48.438

i would share these big

00:35:48.458 --> 00:35:49.739

struggles and there was

00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:50.699

there had to have been

00:35:50.799 --> 00:35:53.200

something where my well my

00:35:53.240 --> 00:35:54.501

mom also struggles with

00:35:54.741 --> 00:35:55.662

some a lot of the same

00:35:55.702 --> 00:35:57.462

things i do so she was

00:35:57.582 --> 00:35:58.403

reading these things and

00:35:58.423 --> 00:35:59.383

i'm sure at the time she

00:35:59.403 --> 00:36:00.584

was like okay that's nice

00:36:00.624 --> 00:36:01.444

and all that there's this

00:36:01.484 --> 00:36:03.245

nice message but there's a

00:36:03.305 --> 00:36:04.925

bigger thing too right so

00:36:04.966 --> 00:36:06.120

by the time i got home

00:36:06.120 --> 00:36:06.888

there was a moment

00:36:06.928 --> 00:36:08.689

where she had told me she's

00:36:08.709 --> 00:36:11.730

like i understand god is great

00:36:13.799 --> 00:36:14.859

there could be some more

00:36:14.899 --> 00:36:17.320

things too that we can help you with.

00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:19.581

And prior to my mission,

00:36:20.181 --> 00:36:22.402

I had seen some therapists as well.

00:36:22.562 --> 00:36:24.303

This is going back to parts

00:36:24.343 --> 00:36:27.644

of my story where, just briefly,

00:36:28.645 --> 00:36:30.225

I struggled with viewing

00:36:30.265 --> 00:36:31.526

pornography as a kid.

00:36:33.381 --> 00:36:34.662

And that's a big no-no in

00:36:34.682 --> 00:36:35.383

the Mormon church.

00:36:37.105 --> 00:36:38.186

And it was a secret I kept

00:36:38.226 --> 00:36:40.608

for seven years from age

00:36:40.648 --> 00:36:42.270

ten to age seventeen.

00:36:43.291 --> 00:36:45.653

Periodic use of pornography in between.

00:36:46.313 --> 00:36:48.375

I had this big old secret

00:36:48.395 --> 00:36:52.440

that I felt like was a big problem.

00:36:53.941 --> 00:36:55.383

And it separated me from God.

00:36:55.623 --> 00:36:56.003

And it was...

00:36:56.144 --> 00:36:59.085

a big source of anxiety and

00:36:59.485 --> 00:37:00.326

depression for me.

00:37:00.826 --> 00:37:03.327

So when I finally told my parents,

00:37:03.459 --> 00:37:04.848

they directed me to talk to

00:37:04.868 --> 00:37:05.888

my church leaders as well,

00:37:06.228 --> 00:37:07.729

which is not fun,

00:37:07.789 --> 00:37:09.310

but part of the process

00:37:09.390 --> 00:37:10.610

there within the Mormon church,

00:37:10.710 --> 00:37:11.768

you gotta do that.

00:37:12.217 --> 00:37:14.078

And I'm grateful for this as well.

00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:16.060

I was able to speak with a

00:37:16.120 --> 00:37:17.080

therapist about that.

00:37:17.401 --> 00:37:19.522

So I had positive

00:37:19.542 --> 00:37:21.223

interactions with therapists prior.

00:37:21.483 --> 00:37:22.724

So a combination of having

00:37:22.784 --> 00:37:24.485

good therapy experiences

00:37:24.525 --> 00:37:25.865

before my mission and my

00:37:25.905 --> 00:37:27.866

mom noticing some stuff in

00:37:27.906 --> 00:37:28.727

me that she noticed in

00:37:28.747 --> 00:37:32.029

herself that contributed to, okay.

00:37:32.731 --> 00:37:34.071

We understand, again,

00:37:34.091 --> 00:37:36.072

that God is great and he

00:37:36.112 --> 00:37:37.972

does so many good things,

00:37:38.353 --> 00:37:39.213

but we can also help

00:37:39.253 --> 00:37:40.393

ourselves and it's not a

00:37:40.413 --> 00:37:41.213

sign of weakness.

00:37:41.233 --> 00:37:42.754

It's not a sign of this

00:37:42.814 --> 00:37:45.075

trial is too big for me to

00:37:45.115 --> 00:37:46.335

give all the way to God.

00:37:46.395 --> 00:37:47.435

I have to give a little bit

00:37:47.475 --> 00:37:48.636

something to the professionals.

00:37:48.756 --> 00:37:50.816

No, that's not a sign of anything bad.

00:37:51.697 --> 00:37:53.037

Let's get you into someone,

00:37:53.437 --> 00:37:54.077

get you meeting with

00:37:54.117 --> 00:37:55.898

someone and try to get some

00:37:55.918 --> 00:37:57.038

of these feelings that

00:37:57.078 --> 00:37:58.319

you're feeling and some of

00:37:58.339 --> 00:37:59.539

these things that you're going through

00:38:01.024 --> 00:38:02.385

in check because they're not

00:38:02.525 --> 00:38:04.766

necessary for this human experience.

00:38:05.966 --> 00:38:07.607

Although you might be seeing it that way.

00:38:07.887 --> 00:38:08.107

Yeah.

00:38:08.207 --> 00:38:09.647

Suffering is not necessary.

00:38:10.027 --> 00:38:10.307

Yeah.

00:38:10.387 --> 00:38:10.688

You know,

00:38:10.768 --> 00:38:12.948

and sometimes we feel like if we've been,

00:38:13.068 --> 00:38:14.109

if we're struggling with

00:38:14.149 --> 00:38:14.849

our mental health,

00:38:15.349 --> 00:38:16.770

that it is a trial that was

00:38:16.810 --> 00:38:18.270

given to us by God so that

00:38:18.290 --> 00:38:19.911

we can learn to overcome it.

00:38:19.991 --> 00:38:20.191

Yeah.

00:38:20.271 --> 00:38:21.991

It's something that it's a

00:38:22.052 --> 00:38:23.852

sticking point to remind us

00:38:23.872 --> 00:38:24.572

that we're human.

00:38:24.592 --> 00:38:26.933

That then reminds us to turn to God.

00:38:26.953 --> 00:38:27.053

Right.

00:38:27.073 --> 00:38:27.353

Right.

00:38:27.733 --> 00:38:28.674

Like this defect.

00:38:28.694 --> 00:38:29.134

Yeah.

00:38:29.414 --> 00:38:31.535

that plays a role in turning this to God.

00:38:32.376 --> 00:38:33.616

So the therapist that you

00:38:33.656 --> 00:38:36.058

went to before your mission,

00:38:36.138 --> 00:38:37.419

was it an LDS therapist?

00:38:37.979 --> 00:38:39.200

Uh, I'll say luckily, no.

00:38:39.220 --> 00:38:39.740

Okay, good.

00:38:40.100 --> 00:38:42.601

Um, the first therapist I ever met with,

00:38:42.695 --> 00:38:44.479

uh, I was in the fifth, uh,

00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.240

as in the sixth grade and

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:47.581

I'd been having some

00:38:47.621 --> 00:38:49.021

behavioral issues and that

00:38:49.041 --> 00:38:51.563

was stemming from the secret.

00:38:51.943 --> 00:38:52.860

And,

00:38:53.551 --> 00:38:55.172

shame and whatnot yeah that

00:38:55.192 --> 00:38:56.653

was an lds therapist from

00:38:56.793 --> 00:38:59.074

lds family services um and

00:38:59.094 --> 00:39:01.457

that was very much a uh

00:39:01.477 --> 00:39:03.558

like a lds immersion

00:39:03.938 --> 00:39:04.918

therapy is what i would

00:39:04.958 --> 00:39:07.740

call it um you know just

00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:08.400

kind of these different

00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:09.621

education systems where

00:39:10.357 --> 00:39:11.338

you know, like French immersion,

00:39:11.378 --> 00:39:12.059

Spanish immersion,

00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:12.860

you learn Spanish while

00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:13.660

you're in school or whatever.

00:39:14.101 --> 00:39:15.462

It was this idea of like, okay, yeah,

00:39:15.482 --> 00:39:18.305

here's some real therapy or

00:39:18.345 --> 00:39:20.587

some legitimate therapy stuff,

00:39:21.008 --> 00:39:25.372

but also some spiritual advice as well.

00:39:25.752 --> 00:39:27.254

And it put them on an equal

00:39:27.314 --> 00:39:30.137

plane of effectiveness and importance.

00:39:30.861 --> 00:39:32.703

And I only saw that therapist once.

00:39:32.723 --> 00:39:33.844

So I was like, I don't,

00:39:34.284 --> 00:39:35.365

this is just church again.

00:39:36.446 --> 00:39:38.207

I feel if this is what therapy is,

00:39:38.267 --> 00:39:39.168

then I'm good.

00:39:39.268 --> 00:39:40.869

Just going for the three

00:39:40.909 --> 00:39:42.150

hours on Sunday and then

00:39:42.251 --> 00:39:43.832

the family home evening on

00:39:43.892 --> 00:39:45.653

Monday and then the mutual on Tuesday.

00:39:46.134 --> 00:39:47.095

I don't want to have church

00:39:47.115 --> 00:39:47.495

again on Sunday.

00:39:47.914 --> 00:39:48.755

Wednesday or Thursday or

00:39:48.775 --> 00:39:49.415

Friday or whatever.

00:39:49.435 --> 00:39:52.378

I'm going to pass on extra church.

00:39:52.798 --> 00:39:55.420

So the therapy before my

00:39:55.460 --> 00:39:57.562

mission as a teenager,

00:39:58.042 --> 00:39:58.963

that was with someone

00:39:59.043 --> 00:40:01.045

independent of any church connection.

00:40:02.126 --> 00:40:03.287

We talked about church a lot

00:40:03.307 --> 00:40:04.168

because it was still very

00:40:04.188 --> 00:40:04.828

important to me.

00:40:04.888 --> 00:40:07.630

And my impression from my

00:40:07.651 --> 00:40:08.511

discussions with my

00:40:08.571 --> 00:40:09.472

therapist was that they

00:40:09.492 --> 00:40:10.853

were a member of the church as well,

00:40:10.873 --> 00:40:11.994

which wasn't surprising

00:40:12.134 --> 00:40:13.876

being Utah County.

00:40:14.057 --> 00:40:14.257

But

00:40:14.886 --> 00:40:15.286

Luckily,

00:40:15.326 --> 00:40:17.108

that wasn't an overbearing or

00:40:17.429 --> 00:40:19.710

overarching theme of our therapy sessions,

00:40:20.771 --> 00:40:21.551

which I'm grateful for.

00:40:22.232 --> 00:40:23.253

I want to rewind just a

00:40:23.293 --> 00:40:25.094

little bit because people

00:40:25.154 --> 00:40:27.275

on my channel who are not

00:40:27.535 --> 00:40:28.836

familiar with the LDS

00:40:28.856 --> 00:40:30.838

Church are probably going to freak out.

00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:32.579

When you say that you

00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:35.041

struggled with pornography,

00:40:35.241 --> 00:40:37.863

this is the LDS way of

00:40:38.103 --> 00:40:39.384

framing anything that has

00:40:39.424 --> 00:40:40.405

to do with pornography.

00:40:40.845 --> 00:40:43.328

So I'm wondering if what you

00:40:43.388 --> 00:40:45.490

mean is that as a young man,

00:40:45.670 --> 00:40:47.451

you had a perfectly developed,

00:40:47.491 --> 00:40:48.653

mentally normal,

00:40:49.253 --> 00:40:51.836

normative behavior of

00:40:52.376 --> 00:40:54.198

looking at a picture of a

00:40:54.258 --> 00:40:56.460

naked person or people and

00:40:56.560 --> 00:40:58.402

thinking that was exciting.

00:40:58.542 --> 00:40:58.822

Yeah.

00:40:58.982 --> 00:40:59.463

Yeah.

00:40:59.523 --> 00:41:00.924

I mean, even even better.

00:41:01.304 --> 00:41:01.465

Yeah.

00:41:02.832 --> 00:41:04.112

It came about because I was

00:41:04.132 --> 00:41:04.953

in the fourth grade.

00:41:05.113 --> 00:41:06.133

I'm living in Illinois,

00:41:06.573 --> 00:41:08.594

so not Mormon dense or anything.

00:41:09.454 --> 00:41:10.474

And a classmate of mine told

00:41:10.514 --> 00:41:11.894

me of a particular website,

00:41:11.914 --> 00:41:13.075

and I don't know what is or

00:41:13.115 --> 00:41:14.475

is not allowed to say on the stream,

00:41:14.495 --> 00:41:15.455

so I won't say it,

00:41:15.495 --> 00:41:18.296

but of an explicit website.

00:41:18.316 --> 00:41:19.336

And I thought,

00:41:19.396 --> 00:41:20.957

there's no way this is legal.

00:41:22.717 --> 00:41:24.558

The internet police would

00:41:24.598 --> 00:41:26.578

not make that allowed, right?

00:41:26.598 --> 00:41:28.419

So this is my mindset going through this.

00:41:29.129 --> 00:41:30.511

And so to prove him wrong,

00:41:31.191 --> 00:41:33.955

cause I was all about trying to, you know,

00:41:33.975 --> 00:41:36.297

take some facts back to him on Monday.

00:41:36.458 --> 00:41:37.399

He told me this like on a

00:41:37.439 --> 00:41:38.960

Friday or something over the weekend,

00:41:39.021 --> 00:41:39.701

I checked it out.

00:41:39.842 --> 00:41:41.063

He turned it out to be right.

00:41:41.624 --> 00:41:44.367

So I wasn't even trying to, um,

00:41:45.027 --> 00:41:46.129

like you said like these

00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:49.312

normative feelings you know

00:41:49.332 --> 00:41:50.233

going through puberty or

00:41:50.253 --> 00:41:51.714

whatever that wasn't even

00:41:52.295 --> 00:41:53.256

my intent my intent was

00:41:53.276 --> 00:41:53.776

just to prove it

00:41:53.796 --> 00:41:55.198

classically wrong he ended

00:41:55.238 --> 00:41:56.499

up being right but I felt

00:41:56.539 --> 00:41:57.820

horrible about it because I

00:41:57.860 --> 00:41:59.882

saw these things and I didn't

00:42:00.483 --> 00:42:02.805

completely hate it yeah and

00:42:02.865 --> 00:42:03.826

that was the part where i

00:42:03.846 --> 00:42:05.207

was like oh no there's this

00:42:05.367 --> 00:42:06.748

evil part inside of me like

00:42:06.828 --> 00:42:08.390

if i was completely holy

00:42:08.450 --> 00:42:09.951

completely good i would

00:42:09.971 --> 00:42:11.712

have seen that and said no

00:42:12.033 --> 00:42:13.334

like joseph running from

00:42:13.414 --> 00:42:14.435

potterford's wife i would

00:42:14.495 --> 00:42:16.997

have been out of there but i i wasn't

00:42:17.497 --> 00:42:19.558

And I was had been baptized

00:42:20.018 --> 00:42:22.059

two years prior at the very

00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:23.040

old age of eight.

00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:24.161

So I made this big

00:42:24.201 --> 00:42:26.082

commitment to give my life to God.

00:42:26.102 --> 00:42:27.622

And I'd already messed up.

00:42:27.682 --> 00:42:29.703

That's how I was in this

00:42:29.763 --> 00:42:31.044

moment because I didn't

00:42:31.304 --> 00:42:34.046

want to run away so quickly.

00:42:35.053 --> 00:42:35.353

wow,

00:42:35.573 --> 00:42:37.815

what a indictment on my commitment and

00:42:37.855 --> 00:42:39.576

not a poor indictment.

00:42:39.796 --> 00:42:40.817

And I was so embarrassed,

00:42:40.937 --> 00:42:41.717

felt so much shame.

00:42:41.897 --> 00:42:42.078

Again,

00:42:42.118 --> 00:42:43.579

I didn't tell anyone about that

00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:44.939

until I was seventeen.

00:42:45.600 --> 00:42:46.661

So that was seven years

00:42:47.161 --> 00:42:48.342

through some very formative

00:42:48.362 --> 00:42:51.884

years thinking I was pretty evil.

00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:53.671

thinking there was a big

00:42:53.711 --> 00:42:54.871

part of you that was evil.

00:42:55.171 --> 00:42:56.772

Just this innate evil part of me.

00:42:56.852 --> 00:42:58.073

Yeah, that's so,

00:42:58.153 --> 00:43:00.694

so harmful to wrestle with.

00:43:00.714 --> 00:43:03.796

And so the message is that

00:43:04.356 --> 00:43:06.317

it's illegal to look at

00:43:06.357 --> 00:43:08.018

pornography or that there

00:43:08.058 --> 00:43:09.219

should have been a part of you

00:43:10.099 --> 00:43:11.400

that wanted to run away and

00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:12.580

never look at it again

00:43:13.160 --> 00:43:14.161

where did that messaging

00:43:14.181 --> 00:43:15.401

come from i know but they

00:43:15.582 --> 00:43:17.262

they they need to know yeah

00:43:17.322 --> 00:43:20.504

yeah um yeah so every every

00:43:20.584 --> 00:43:22.585

six months um the

00:43:23.978 --> 00:43:25.059

leadership of the Mormon

00:43:25.099 --> 00:43:27.401

church addresses the

00:43:27.863 --> 00:43:29.805

population of the church in

00:43:29.845 --> 00:43:30.606

a meeting called General

00:43:30.646 --> 00:43:33.429

Conference every April and every October.

00:43:34.190 --> 00:43:35.931

And it was in those meetings,

00:43:36.232 --> 00:43:40.036

particularly in the early thousands,

00:43:40.096 --> 00:43:42.238

that internet is becoming a bigger thing.

00:43:43.138 --> 00:43:44.659

I'm just a product of it.

00:43:45.140 --> 00:43:47.081

I didn't know life before the internet,

00:43:47.201 --> 00:43:50.023

but these older men are in their fifties,

00:43:50.063 --> 00:43:50.383

sixties,

00:43:50.423 --> 00:43:51.444

seventies talking about the

00:43:51.464 --> 00:43:52.424

internet as if it's this

00:43:52.825 --> 00:43:56.227

evil highway to anything

00:43:56.247 --> 00:43:57.088

that you could see.

00:43:57.888 --> 00:43:59.070

And so I'm hearing messages

00:43:59.270 --> 00:44:00.491

of anyone who views

00:44:00.551 --> 00:44:04.456

pornography is self-centered.

00:44:04.616 --> 00:44:06.278

Anyone who views pornography

00:44:06.600 --> 00:44:07.882

doesn't love their family.

00:44:08.502 --> 00:44:09.544

And I've pulled quotes

00:44:09.604 --> 00:44:11.726

because it's really easy to

00:44:11.866 --> 00:44:13.789

feel a certain way and then think,

00:44:13.889 --> 00:44:14.209

am I the...

00:44:15.331 --> 00:44:16.492

Am I wrong?

00:44:16.732 --> 00:44:18.795

Did they say normal things

00:44:18.815 --> 00:44:19.736

and I took it the wrong way?

00:44:19.776 --> 00:44:21.298

So I've gone back, honestly,

00:44:21.359 --> 00:44:23.463

to kind of validate my own past.

00:44:23.963 --> 00:44:24.384

Like, no,

00:44:24.524 --> 00:44:25.666

I was hearing things and

00:44:25.826 --> 00:44:27.989

interpreting it the way

00:44:28.950 --> 00:44:29.845

that they were saying it.

00:44:30.154 --> 00:44:32.056

But yeah, these messages from leaders who,

00:44:32.156 --> 00:44:33.337

as you pointed out before,

00:44:33.777 --> 00:44:35.799

we were seeing as prophets, seers,

00:44:35.839 --> 00:44:36.419

and revelators.

00:44:36.439 --> 00:44:37.660

So not just guys that we

00:44:37.700 --> 00:44:38.801

thought had some good advice.

00:44:39.161 --> 00:44:40.162

Guys that we were being

00:44:40.222 --> 00:44:43.265

taught were on the same level as Moses,

00:44:43.345 --> 00:44:44.526

same level as Noah.

00:44:44.786 --> 00:44:45.587

These are people who are

00:44:45.607 --> 00:44:47.608

getting direct revelation

00:44:47.708 --> 00:44:49.750

from God to tell us these things.

00:44:49.790 --> 00:44:51.171

So if it's on their mind,

00:44:51.472 --> 00:44:52.993

it's because it's on God's mind.

00:44:53.033 --> 00:44:54.274

And if they're telling it to us,

00:44:54.314 --> 00:44:55.975

it's because God told them

00:44:56.035 --> 00:44:56.976

to tell it to us.

00:44:57.416 --> 00:44:58.998

So the messaging I was getting was,

00:45:00.376 --> 00:45:02.717

God sees those who view

00:45:02.757 --> 00:45:04.378

pornography as selfish people,

00:45:05.618 --> 00:45:09.060

as they compared it to cocaine,

00:45:09.680 --> 00:45:10.941

that if you see it once,

00:45:11.381 --> 00:45:13.522

then that's probably not

00:45:13.542 --> 00:45:14.362

gonna be your last time.

00:45:14.422 --> 00:45:16.543

You're gonna just see it and

00:45:16.663 --> 00:45:18.144

go after it the rest of your life.

00:45:19.784 --> 00:45:21.445

The current prophet today,

00:45:21.665 --> 00:45:22.846

his name is Russell M. Nelson.

00:45:22.926 --> 00:45:24.487

He's been in leadership for a long time.

00:45:24.527 --> 00:45:26.107

So he's been given addresses

00:45:26.127 --> 00:45:29.049

to the church population for a long time.

00:45:31.152 --> 00:45:33.773

talked about if you eat something bad,

00:45:34.273 --> 00:45:35.554

your body has the ability

00:45:35.594 --> 00:45:36.895

to throw it up and that's

00:45:36.975 --> 00:45:38.115

great because your body's like,

00:45:38.135 --> 00:45:39.556

that's gross, don't want that.

00:45:39.616 --> 00:45:40.716

He said, unfortunately,

00:45:40.756 --> 00:45:41.997

when you view pornography,

00:45:42.077 --> 00:45:43.518

it goes into your brain and

00:45:43.538 --> 00:45:45.859

your brain can't throw stuff up.

00:45:45.919 --> 00:45:48.600

So it has the ability for recall.

00:45:49.260 --> 00:45:50.521

So when you view pornography,

00:45:50.941 --> 00:45:51.741

you're not really just

00:45:51.761 --> 00:45:52.882

viewing it once because

00:45:52.902 --> 00:45:54.402

your brain can look at it

00:45:54.462 --> 00:45:55.343

again and again.

00:45:55.803 --> 00:45:57.544

And again, and again, and again,

00:45:57.564 --> 00:45:59.165

like I said, I have ADHD.

00:45:59.225 --> 00:45:59.925

I have anxiety.

00:46:00.025 --> 00:46:01.886

My brain is working a lot

00:46:02.026 --> 00:46:03.627

and it hyper focuses on things.

00:46:04.067 --> 00:46:07.049

So when I'm eleven, I just I'm ten, eleven,

00:46:07.089 --> 00:46:07.549

twelve.

00:46:08.049 --> 00:46:09.370

I'm a I'm a boy.

00:46:11.291 --> 00:46:13.912

I'm a young kid going through puberty.

00:46:14.292 --> 00:46:15.573

I'm thinking about sex.

00:46:17.142 --> 00:46:17.782

I'm like, oh man,

00:46:17.802 --> 00:46:18.663

that's because I looked at

00:46:18.703 --> 00:46:20.024

pornography three years ago.

00:46:20.224 --> 00:46:21.084

That's because I did this

00:46:21.124 --> 00:46:22.345

and I can't throw it up

00:46:22.385 --> 00:46:24.106

like Mr. Nelson said,

00:46:24.246 --> 00:46:25.487

like Elder Nelson said.

00:46:26.507 --> 00:46:27.188

He's so right.

00:46:27.288 --> 00:46:29.169

And I can't believe I've done, and again,

00:46:29.209 --> 00:46:30.970

the shame cycle of like,

00:46:31.010 --> 00:46:32.251

if I had only not,

00:46:33.624 --> 00:46:35.246

done that at ten then I

00:46:35.266 --> 00:46:37.708

would be fine now so I was

00:46:37.748 --> 00:46:41.672

still like reliving this um

00:46:41.732 --> 00:46:43.393

just like if only I had

00:46:43.453 --> 00:46:44.855

just had the strength at

00:46:44.935 --> 00:46:47.817

ten then I wouldn't be as

00:46:47.958 --> 00:46:50.380

messed up of a gross human

00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:52.782

being as I am at thirteen

00:46:52.962 --> 00:46:54.824

or at fourteen and it really did wreck

00:46:55.610 --> 00:46:56.991

mental health and again i

00:46:57.711 --> 00:46:59.152

was dealing with this all

00:46:59.212 --> 00:47:00.353

on my own and it's not that

00:47:00.373 --> 00:47:02.193

my parents didn't create a

00:47:02.233 --> 00:47:04.435

loving environment it's not

00:47:04.455 --> 00:47:08.497

that i felt as if if i were

00:47:08.517 --> 00:47:10.638

to tell them that that i

00:47:10.658 --> 00:47:13.259

looked at pornography that

00:47:13.279 --> 00:47:14.320

they would have been like

00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:15.460

what does that what is

00:47:15.600 --> 00:47:16.581

we've heard this evil

00:47:16.781 --> 00:47:18.802

pornography you tell us son

00:47:18.902 --> 00:47:20.323

what is this pornography i

00:47:20.363 --> 00:47:22.304

was convinced i was the only kid who

00:47:23.271 --> 00:47:24.432

knew what pornography was

00:47:24.872 --> 00:47:25.493

because the way that it was

00:47:25.533 --> 00:47:27.735

talked about was don't even touch it.

00:47:27.755 --> 00:47:29.016

Don't even look at it.

00:47:29.096 --> 00:47:29.656

It wasn't,

00:47:31.418 --> 00:47:32.419

if this is something that you're

00:47:32.459 --> 00:47:33.199

dealing with,

00:47:33.640 --> 00:47:36.162

here's some ways and it's gotten better.

00:47:36.942 --> 00:47:38.283

But at that time it was like,

00:47:38.303 --> 00:47:39.885

don't even touch it because

00:47:39.925 --> 00:47:43.668

it is as catchy as cocaine.

00:47:44.288 --> 00:47:45.069

And I'm like, I'm like,

00:47:45.109 --> 00:47:48.272

I just basically I'm hooked on cocaine.

00:47:48.937 --> 00:47:50.198

Yeah.

00:47:50.278 --> 00:47:51.559

And even as a young woman,

00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:55.663

I recognized that there was

00:47:55.683 --> 00:47:57.985

this hyper fixation about

00:47:59.426 --> 00:48:00.427

telling young men to stay

00:48:00.447 --> 00:48:01.467

away from pornography.

00:48:01.828 --> 00:48:02.969

And I wasn't a young man,

00:48:03.009 --> 00:48:03.969

so I wasn't getting those

00:48:04.029 --> 00:48:06.331

lessons in my Sunday school time.

00:48:06.351 --> 00:48:09.354

But I noticed that general conference,

00:48:09.374 --> 00:48:11.115

there seemed to be a big fixation on it.

00:48:11.856 --> 00:48:14.798

And the message was never, oh,

00:48:14.818 --> 00:48:17.000

this is something that we

00:48:17.040 --> 00:48:17.801

all struggle with.

00:48:18.832 --> 00:48:20.393

It was if you're doing this,

00:48:20.433 --> 00:48:21.654

you're the only one who's

00:48:21.694 --> 00:48:22.514

struggling with it.

00:48:23.315 --> 00:48:27.277

And forgive me if I if I I

00:48:27.297 --> 00:48:28.238

just want to clarify.

00:48:28.298 --> 00:48:30.199

So you said you looked at a

00:48:30.279 --> 00:48:31.100

site when you were ten

00:48:31.120 --> 00:48:31.840

years old because you were

00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:32.681

trying to prove your friend

00:48:32.721 --> 00:48:33.381

wrong because you thought

00:48:33.401 --> 00:48:34.102

this was illegal.

00:48:34.142 --> 00:48:35.863

There's no way this even exists.

00:48:35.883 --> 00:48:36.023

Yeah.

00:48:37.310 --> 00:48:38.271

that was the only time you

00:48:38.311 --> 00:48:39.752

looked at it until you were

00:48:39.832 --> 00:48:43.295

how old um so so that that

00:48:43.335 --> 00:48:46.397

time to maybe like fourteen

00:48:46.697 --> 00:48:48.339

i didn't do anything from

00:48:48.359 --> 00:48:49.620

like fourteen to seventeen

00:48:49.852 --> 00:48:52.385

um there was uh i was i was

00:48:52.405 --> 00:48:53.746

feeling it pretty

00:48:53.806 --> 00:48:55.988

frequently so from ten to

00:48:56.008 --> 00:48:57.429

fourteen you didn't view

00:48:57.509 --> 00:48:58.790

any of it but that whole

00:48:58.830 --> 00:48:59.951

four year span you felt

00:48:59.991 --> 00:49:01.011

like a garbage human being

00:49:01.452 --> 00:49:02.853

absolutely wow and

00:49:03.317 --> 00:49:05.878

And again, no one knew what was going on,

00:49:06.018 --> 00:49:08.139

but I had that moment at

00:49:08.179 --> 00:49:10.879

ten in like the early part of,

00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:12.120

this was two thousand five,

00:49:12.140 --> 00:49:13.660

so early two thousand five.

00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:16.581

And then we moved the summer

00:49:16.841 --> 00:49:18.381

of two thousand five.

00:49:18.781 --> 00:49:22.182

So a lot of, so I'm leaving my friends,

00:49:22.202 --> 00:49:24.503

I'm moving, we're moving back to Utah.

00:49:25.600 --> 00:49:29.382

a new place, a new situation, everything.

00:49:29.802 --> 00:49:31.944

The church is so much more.

00:49:33.564 --> 00:49:34.945

My classmates are Mormon,

00:49:34.985 --> 00:49:35.686

everyone's Mormon.

00:49:35.746 --> 00:49:37.247

I had this moment going into

00:49:37.267 --> 00:49:37.907

the fifth grade,

00:49:38.427 --> 00:49:39.408

my teacher had graduated

00:49:39.428 --> 00:49:40.949

from BYU and I thought to myself,

00:49:41.069 --> 00:49:42.029

does that mean she's Mormon?

00:49:42.049 --> 00:49:43.210

Do I have a teacher who's Mormon?

00:49:43.973 --> 00:49:45.614

So I asked her, I said, are you Mormon?

00:49:46.094 --> 00:49:47.455

And she laughed and everyone

00:49:47.655 --> 00:49:49.336

in the room was like, we're all Mormon.

00:49:49.356 --> 00:49:50.697

I was like, this is so, I was like,

00:49:50.797 --> 00:49:52.277

oh my God, I'm not used to this.

00:49:52.297 --> 00:49:53.138

This is something.

00:49:53.178 --> 00:49:54.599

It's like something out of

00:49:54.619 --> 00:49:57.000

the Twilight Zone.

00:49:57.040 --> 00:49:58.781

But I was like, oh yeah, I guess so.

00:49:59.381 --> 00:50:03.742

And so it's totally new and whatnot.

00:50:03.782 --> 00:50:05.883

But, yeah, so from ten to fourteen,

00:50:06.123 --> 00:50:06.763

only once.

00:50:07.284 --> 00:50:08.188

And I again,

00:50:08.208 --> 00:50:09.848

just moving and not having

00:50:09.868 --> 00:50:12.949

a ton of established relationships,

00:50:12.969 --> 00:50:13.250

whatever,

00:50:13.270 --> 00:50:14.230

it was really hard for me to

00:50:15.950 --> 00:50:17.751

convince myself otherwise

00:50:17.791 --> 00:50:18.811

that I wasn't this bad

00:50:19.632 --> 00:50:20.772

person because that's what I was having.

00:50:22.370 --> 00:50:24.132

And like you said, in those lessons,

00:50:24.614 --> 00:50:25.475

we were being told,

00:50:25.695 --> 00:50:27.377

and this was one of the

00:50:27.437 --> 00:50:29.939

earliest red flags I noticed.

00:50:30.421 --> 00:50:30.621

Again,

00:50:30.661 --> 00:50:32.083

it took a while for me to end up leaving.

00:50:32.114 --> 00:50:33.024

I remember being in a

00:50:33.064 --> 00:50:34.365

lesson where they told us

00:50:36.087 --> 00:50:39.090

that partially young women

00:50:39.230 --> 00:50:40.392

were responsible for

00:50:41.759 --> 00:50:42.379

how we think,

00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.983

we had a local leader come to

00:50:46.023 --> 00:50:48.665

our class of fifteen and

00:50:48.685 --> 00:50:51.268

sixteen year old boys say, us men,

00:50:51.308 --> 00:50:54.089

like sex is, we love sex,

00:50:54.130 --> 00:50:56.031

like sex is such a big deal to us.

00:50:56.531 --> 00:50:58.572

Obviously, you know that, I know that.

00:50:58.833 --> 00:50:59.773

I'm like, I don't know you,

00:50:59.793 --> 00:51:00.974

what are you doing?

00:51:01.014 --> 00:51:01.635

This is so weird.

00:51:01.695 --> 00:51:01.995

He's like,

00:51:03.035 --> 00:51:04.036

and there's things that we need

00:51:04.056 --> 00:51:04.917

to do to like,

00:51:05.914 --> 00:51:07.234

bridle those passions.

00:51:07.294 --> 00:51:09.535

That's a term, bridle those passions.

00:51:09.975 --> 00:51:11.416

And he had all these different things,

00:51:11.436 --> 00:51:12.836

but then one of them was like,

00:51:12.856 --> 00:51:15.478

we do need notice that young women,

00:51:15.878 --> 00:51:19.979

how they dress does help us keep our,

00:51:20.419 --> 00:51:21.379

bridle our passions.

00:51:21.860 --> 00:51:23.020

And one of those red flags, I was like,

00:51:24.116 --> 00:51:26.238

wait, so am I, just because I'm a boy,

00:51:26.379 --> 00:51:29.202

I don't, like, I'm susceptible, like,

00:51:29.222 --> 00:51:29.883

that's just innate,

00:51:29.903 --> 00:51:32.165

is that I'm susceptible to a, like,

00:51:32.245 --> 00:51:32.586

I don't,

00:51:32.726 --> 00:51:34.368

I can't have control over my own

00:51:34.408 --> 00:51:34.869

thoughts?

00:51:35.289 --> 00:51:36.410

Like, what do you, like,

00:51:36.430 --> 00:51:38.293

that was what I gained from him, was like,

00:51:38.713 --> 00:51:39.614

at some point,

00:51:40.015 --> 00:51:41.536

the sex brain just takes over.

00:51:42.293 --> 00:51:43.614

kind of like behold or

00:51:43.634 --> 00:51:45.495

something and I'm like

00:51:45.535 --> 00:51:46.935

really like I'm destined

00:51:46.955 --> 00:51:48.596

like that's just part of

00:51:48.676 --> 00:51:49.737

who I am I was like that

00:51:49.757 --> 00:51:51.918

seems like an excuse that

00:51:51.938 --> 00:51:52.878

you're giving yourself to

00:51:52.918 --> 00:51:54.219

be a weirdo like you are

00:51:54.259 --> 00:51:56.760

right now around women yeah

00:51:57.300 --> 00:51:59.141

you're like I couldn't like

00:51:59.161 --> 00:52:00.002

that sounds like I couldn't

00:52:00.042 --> 00:52:01.022

help myself type of

00:52:01.502 --> 00:52:03.423

language but I also didn't

00:52:03.463 --> 00:52:06.525

appreciate him telling me that I don't

00:52:07.703 --> 00:52:09.384

have complete control over

00:52:09.424 --> 00:52:11.284

my thoughts and actions, which yeah,

00:52:11.304 --> 00:52:12.365

there are thoughts that pop

00:52:12.425 --> 00:52:13.625

up as reactions to things,

00:52:13.685 --> 00:52:14.806

but then you can address those.

00:52:15.186 --> 00:52:16.126

And the message I was

00:52:16.146 --> 00:52:16.967

getting from him was like,

00:52:17.047 --> 00:52:18.367

you can't even address those.

00:52:18.387 --> 00:52:19.768

Those are just so strong.

00:52:19.828 --> 00:52:22.669

Like as men, I was like, what are you?

00:52:23.309 --> 00:52:24.349

Again, this was like a stranger.

00:52:24.369 --> 00:52:25.490

I was like, who are you?

00:52:25.510 --> 00:52:26.230

Who invited you?

00:52:26.590 --> 00:52:27.230

This is weird.

00:52:28.311 --> 00:52:29.211

And I don't appreciate you

00:52:29.251 --> 00:52:31.332

telling me that I can't

00:52:32.072 --> 00:52:34.113

control myself around my

00:52:35.121 --> 00:52:36.962

Certainly women who are

00:52:36.982 --> 00:52:37.782

dressed a certain way.

00:52:37.802 --> 00:52:39.462

I'm like, okay.

00:52:39.663 --> 00:52:40.983

This is mind blowing for me

00:52:41.403 --> 00:52:42.644

to finally hear the other

00:52:42.684 --> 00:52:43.504

side of this coin.

00:52:43.944 --> 00:52:46.105

Because as a young woman, I was told,

00:52:46.765 --> 00:52:49.166

this by the way, pornography right here,

00:52:49.846 --> 00:52:50.346

not allowed.

00:52:50.947 --> 00:52:52.067

Shoulders must be covered.

00:52:52.647 --> 00:52:53.895

Skirts must be knee length.

00:52:55.188 --> 00:52:56.729

This was the part that was

00:52:56.769 --> 00:52:57.549

the hardest for me.

00:52:58.069 --> 00:52:59.730

When we went to girls camp every summer,

00:53:00.717 --> 00:53:02.141

we were told that we could

00:53:02.201 --> 00:53:04.265

not wear a two-piece bathing suit.

00:53:04.306 --> 00:53:05.528

We had to wear a one-piece

00:53:05.548 --> 00:53:08.555

bathing suit because there

00:53:08.575 --> 00:53:09.317

would be a priesthood

00:53:09.357 --> 00:53:10.500

leader visiting the camp.

00:53:11.053 --> 00:53:12.955

So the bishop or the person

00:53:12.975 --> 00:53:13.655

who's in charge of the

00:53:13.675 --> 00:53:14.576

congregation would be

00:53:14.616 --> 00:53:15.777

coming to visit the camp.

00:53:16.678 --> 00:53:19.300

And we were not allowed to

00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:20.421

wear a two-piece bathing

00:53:20.481 --> 00:53:22.182

suit because that would be

00:53:22.202 --> 00:53:23.944

a temptation to that leader.

00:53:24.784 --> 00:53:25.685

And this didn't really

00:53:25.745 --> 00:53:27.907

register on me as a young woman.

00:53:27.927 --> 00:53:29.969

It didn't register on me, unfortunately,

00:53:30.049 --> 00:53:31.810

until I was called to be

00:53:31.830 --> 00:53:32.611

the camp director.

00:53:32.711 --> 00:53:34.192

I was taking young women to camp.

00:53:34.841 --> 00:53:37.122

And one of the girls asked me one time,

00:53:37.162 --> 00:53:37.502

she said,

00:53:37.583 --> 00:53:39.063

I just I'm having a hard time

00:53:39.083 --> 00:53:40.104

with this modesty thing.

00:53:40.144 --> 00:53:41.544

Can you please explain to me

00:53:42.324 --> 00:53:44.705

why we have to wear a one

00:53:44.745 --> 00:53:45.766

piece swimming suit just

00:53:45.806 --> 00:53:47.587

because there's going to be one man here?

00:53:48.207 --> 00:53:49.447

And I literally couldn't I

00:53:49.487 --> 00:53:50.268

couldn't explain it.

00:53:50.388 --> 00:53:50.928

I was like this.

00:53:51.008 --> 00:53:52.208

It doesn't make any sense to me.

00:53:52.388 --> 00:53:52.809

I don't know.

00:53:53.249 --> 00:53:54.849

But I was told as a young

00:53:54.869 --> 00:53:55.570

woman growing up.

00:53:56.550 --> 00:53:57.450

That it was my

00:53:57.490 --> 00:53:58.711

responsibility to dress

00:53:58.771 --> 00:54:00.272

modestly so that I wouldn't

00:54:00.612 --> 00:54:02.172

tempt other men.

00:54:02.973 --> 00:54:04.473

And it is so interesting to

00:54:04.513 --> 00:54:05.774

hear you talk about it from

00:54:05.834 --> 00:54:07.734

your perspective that it

00:54:07.774 --> 00:54:09.335

was basically you felt like

00:54:09.395 --> 00:54:11.216

you were being told you

00:54:11.236 --> 00:54:12.156

weren't in control of your

00:54:12.236 --> 00:54:13.757

own thoughts and your own mind.

00:54:14.197 --> 00:54:15.998

Yeah, it was honestly insulting.

00:54:16.018 --> 00:54:16.998

I was like, yeah.

00:54:18.349 --> 00:54:20.910

okay, you really,

00:54:21.030 --> 00:54:22.491

that's your view of all of

00:54:22.571 --> 00:54:25.112

us and yourself that you don't,

00:54:25.412 --> 00:54:27.513

you can't control yourself.

00:54:27.613 --> 00:54:29.574

Like that's, and again,

00:54:29.614 --> 00:54:30.735

like at that time and that

00:54:30.795 --> 00:54:31.755

bubble and that moment,

00:54:31.836 --> 00:54:33.096

I took that as really insulting.

00:54:33.856 --> 00:54:35.037

Now I can zoom out and say, well,

00:54:35.077 --> 00:54:37.678

that's actually so disgusting.

00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:42.261

And on so many levels, one on the guy,

00:54:42.721 --> 00:54:44.962

because again, his excuse is,

00:54:46.415 --> 00:54:47.516

I just couldn't help myself.

00:54:47.616 --> 00:54:48.496

This is just who I am.

00:54:48.616 --> 00:54:49.377

That's disgusting.

00:54:49.737 --> 00:54:50.017

Two,

00:54:50.097 --> 00:54:52.699

you're putting the onus on women in

00:54:52.759 --> 00:54:53.079

general,

00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:54.860

but like in your specific example,

00:54:55.141 --> 00:54:58.543

on young women for adult men, that is...

00:55:00.010 --> 00:55:02.111

that is so gross for that to

00:55:02.131 --> 00:55:02.711

be the reason.

00:55:02.791 --> 00:55:04.491

Like, frankly, I would, I would,

00:55:04.791 --> 00:55:05.952

I would rather them just say,

00:55:06.452 --> 00:55:07.232

that's just the rule.

00:55:07.252 --> 00:55:08.092

Right.

00:55:08.172 --> 00:55:08.412

Right.

00:55:08.493 --> 00:55:10.893

Like that's the lazy way out to say like,

00:55:10.913 --> 00:55:12.374

that's just the rule, but to be like,

00:55:12.634 --> 00:55:16.035

just the on, and I guess honesty is,

00:55:16.135 --> 00:55:19.096

it shows how awful it is, but like, well,

00:55:19.116 --> 00:55:19.336

yeah,

00:55:19.356 --> 00:55:21.636

because brother so-and-so who's this

00:55:21.736 --> 00:55:22.677

four-year-old man,

00:55:22.717 --> 00:55:23.777

who's here on a volunteer

00:55:23.797 --> 00:55:26.138

basis might look at you.

00:55:26.338 --> 00:55:26.698

Who's like,

00:55:27.038 --> 00:55:28.719

twelve thirteen fourteen and

00:55:28.759 --> 00:55:29.859

it might not go over so

00:55:29.919 --> 00:55:31.500

well so just so just in

00:55:31.540 --> 00:55:32.980

case let's make sure that

00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:34.681

doesn't happen we'll put

00:55:34.721 --> 00:55:36.582

some fabric on you yeah if

00:55:36.642 --> 00:55:38.023

your explanation of why i

00:55:38.063 --> 00:55:39.304

need to be modest is that a

00:55:39.344 --> 00:55:40.624

forty-year-old man is going

00:55:40.644 --> 00:55:41.604

to be attracted to my

00:55:41.665 --> 00:55:42.725

sixteen-year-old body

00:55:43.185 --> 00:55:44.486

that's gross please just

00:55:44.526 --> 00:55:45.806

don't give me that like i'd

00:55:45.846 --> 00:55:46.887

rather have like in the

00:55:46.947 --> 00:55:48.227

handbook no yeah no

00:55:48.327 --> 00:55:49.448

explanation would be so

00:55:49.468 --> 00:55:53.643

much better but i mean i guess uh uh

00:55:53.734 --> 00:55:56.457

eventually good outcome of

00:55:56.517 --> 00:55:58.158

hearing that honesty is

00:55:58.199 --> 00:56:00.221

being able to see it for as

00:56:00.261 --> 00:56:01.642

gross as it really is yeah

00:56:01.702 --> 00:56:02.284

yeah for sure

00:56:03.310 --> 00:56:05.611

Somebody mentioned addiction recovery,

00:56:05.671 --> 00:56:06.651

the addiction recovery

00:56:06.691 --> 00:56:08.231

program in relation to

00:56:08.351 --> 00:56:10.472

viewing pornography.

00:56:10.932 --> 00:56:13.193

So you said that you had to

00:56:13.233 --> 00:56:16.334

go talk to a church leader about this.

00:56:16.694 --> 00:56:18.614

Did they label it an addiction for you?

00:56:19.495 --> 00:56:19.855

They did,

00:56:19.875 --> 00:56:22.575

and I also attended the recovery

00:56:22.635 --> 00:56:26.136

program as well with my dad

00:56:26.156 --> 00:56:28.077

because I was a minor, so he had to come.

00:56:28.859 --> 00:56:30.448

uh, with me and,

00:56:30.522 --> 00:56:31.943

I'll talk about that experience.

00:56:32.183 --> 00:56:32.450

Okay.

00:56:32.450 --> 00:56:32.885

Um,

00:56:32.945 --> 00:56:36.308

partially it was helpful because it was

00:56:36.348 --> 00:56:38.469

the first time that I saw

00:56:39.190 --> 00:56:40.571

evidence that it wasn't just me.

00:56:41.092 --> 00:56:41.912

Up until that point,

00:56:42.132 --> 00:56:44.254

I was convinced it was just me.

00:56:44.394 --> 00:56:45.675

I had talked to my therapist

00:56:45.695 --> 00:56:46.336

about that feeling.

00:56:46.376 --> 00:56:49.699

They told me, trust me, it's not just you.

00:56:50.099 --> 00:56:51.380

And as much as I did trust them,

00:56:51.600 --> 00:56:52.237

I couldn't, uh,

00:56:52.237 --> 00:56:53.505

know for sure.

00:56:53.525 --> 00:56:54.646

I mean,

00:56:54.666 --> 00:56:55.606

there was a chance they were just

00:56:55.626 --> 00:56:56.247

being nice to me,

00:56:56.667 --> 00:56:57.688

my therapist by saying that.

00:56:57.728 --> 00:56:59.870

But for the first time I saw, okay,

00:56:59.970 --> 00:57:01.671

there are other people who

00:57:02.091 --> 00:57:03.552

are doing the same thing that I am.

00:57:04.173 --> 00:57:04.573

And again,

00:57:04.633 --> 00:57:06.094

my perspective at the time was

00:57:06.174 --> 00:57:06.994

we're all doing something

00:57:07.014 --> 00:57:08.075

wrong and we're here to

00:57:08.115 --> 00:57:10.937

just help each other not do that.

00:57:11.557 --> 00:57:13.899

And it was this round table of men

00:57:14.158 --> 00:57:16.776

and it was separated men

00:57:16.796 --> 00:57:20.297

and women so um but yeah

00:57:20.317 --> 00:57:21.278

this round table and we

00:57:21.318 --> 00:57:22.899

just shared i mean it is

00:57:22.939 --> 00:57:25.000

patterned after alcoholics

00:57:25.020 --> 00:57:26.541

anonymous so what you see

00:57:26.561 --> 00:57:27.782

in the movies from aa

00:57:27.822 --> 00:57:29.142

meetings of you say your

00:57:29.182 --> 00:57:30.323

name they say welcome and

00:57:30.363 --> 00:57:33.384

you share whatever it's the

00:57:33.424 --> 00:57:36.066

same thing but i'm in a room with

00:57:36.836 --> 00:57:38.678

you know, thirty year olds, four year olds,

00:57:38.758 --> 00:57:39.719

fifty year olds and we're

00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:41.381

even older and we're all

00:57:41.441 --> 00:57:43.605

talking about viewing lewd

00:57:43.645 --> 00:57:45.427

content and not, I mean,

00:57:45.628 --> 00:57:47.930

it's not like you're going

00:57:47.950 --> 00:57:48.851

there to discuss what you

00:57:48.891 --> 00:57:49.612

watched or whatever,

00:57:49.812 --> 00:57:52.295

but just the struggle of

00:57:52.898 --> 00:57:54.039

your relationship with that

00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:54.940

kind of stuff.

00:57:55.878 --> 00:57:57.040

Again, at the time,

00:57:57.160 --> 00:57:59.062

it played a role that was

00:57:59.222 --> 00:58:01.044

helpful for me because it

00:58:01.145 --> 00:58:02.826

made me not feel so isolated.

00:58:03.888 --> 00:58:05.510

Looking back, I'm like,

00:58:06.611 --> 00:58:07.692

addiction is a very...

00:58:08.724 --> 00:58:10.986

tough word to label what

00:58:11.106 --> 00:58:13.467

my behavior was and and

00:58:13.547 --> 00:58:14.808

i've gone back and forth

00:58:15.108 --> 00:58:17.289

about whether it was or not

00:58:17.749 --> 00:58:18.990

and i'm confident to say

00:58:19.110 --> 00:58:21.431

now that it wasn't an

00:58:21.471 --> 00:58:24.229

addiction simply because

00:58:24.576 --> 00:58:24.736

Well,

00:58:24.816 --> 00:58:26.498

I just look at an actual definition

00:58:26.538 --> 00:58:27.859

of an addiction and it doesn't match up.

00:58:28.099 --> 00:58:28.459

Yes.

00:58:28.819 --> 00:58:30.661

Like the non-Mormon

00:58:30.681 --> 00:58:32.502

definition of addiction,

00:58:32.642 --> 00:58:35.324

which is the actual definition.

00:58:36.325 --> 00:58:37.666

I think in the Mormon church,

00:58:38.266 --> 00:58:40.648

that viewing of lewd

00:58:40.688 --> 00:58:42.750

material gets labeled as an

00:58:42.790 --> 00:58:43.670

addiction if you've even

00:58:43.690 --> 00:58:44.411

done it one time.

00:58:46.232 --> 00:58:47.593

Does that seem accurate to you?

00:58:47.693 --> 00:58:48.214

Oh, for sure.

00:58:48.294 --> 00:58:48.454

Yeah.

00:58:48.634 --> 00:58:49.595

And again,

00:58:49.896 --> 00:58:51.938

having my first interaction with...

00:58:52.694 --> 00:58:55.916

lewd content and messaging

00:58:55.956 --> 00:58:57.457

from the church at ten to

00:58:57.737 --> 00:58:59.098

when I left at twenty seven

00:58:59.578 --> 00:59:01.700

in those and that nearly two decades,

00:59:02.080 --> 00:59:06.402

messaging has, I would say, improved.

00:59:06.483 --> 00:59:09.805

So I would say it is better now,

00:59:10.125 --> 00:59:12.706

but breadcrumbs are breadcrumbs.

00:59:12.786 --> 00:59:14.167

So take it for what you will.

00:59:14.848 --> 00:59:15.308

But yes,

00:59:15.408 --> 00:59:17.870

at the time when my first exposure

00:59:17.910 --> 00:59:18.270

happened,

00:59:19.437 --> 00:59:21.458

to the time I first came to

00:59:21.478 --> 00:59:23.559

my parents about what was going on,

00:59:24.580 --> 00:59:25.581

the message was pretty

00:59:25.621 --> 00:59:27.862

clear about if you view pornography,

00:59:28.282 --> 00:59:29.803

even if you aren't addicted now, you,

00:59:30.243 --> 00:59:32.565

you will, it was just inevitable.

00:59:33.145 --> 00:59:36.006

Don't start because once you do,

00:59:36.507 --> 00:59:38.688

it will be so tough to stop

00:59:39.108 --> 00:59:40.089

almost impossible.

00:59:40.149 --> 00:59:41.229

And I actually remember,

00:59:41.234 --> 00:59:41.514

you know,

00:59:41.534 --> 00:59:43.395

local meetings where those

00:59:43.435 --> 00:59:44.655

teaching are just your neighbors,

00:59:45.215 --> 00:59:46.435

you know, not experts in.

00:59:47.136 --> 00:59:47.316

Right.

00:59:47.356 --> 00:59:49.356

Landscapers and accountants and, you know.

00:59:49.376 --> 00:59:49.496

Right.

00:59:50.837 --> 00:59:52.417

Your friends' parents are

00:59:52.477 --> 00:59:54.158

who these people are.

00:59:54.178 --> 00:59:54.278

Right.

00:59:54.298 --> 00:59:56.098

And I remember them really

00:59:56.158 --> 00:59:57.999

harping on the idea of if you start,

00:59:59.319 --> 01:00:02.040

it'll be so hard to stop.

01:00:02.200 --> 01:00:03.060

So don't even start.

01:00:03.440 --> 01:00:05.241

And at ten, I had started.

01:00:05.661 --> 01:00:08.022

So all that messaging went over my head.

01:00:09.026 --> 01:00:10.186

about don't even start

01:00:10.206 --> 01:00:11.507

because I was like well I

01:00:11.527 --> 01:00:12.967

already started and I agree

01:00:12.987 --> 01:00:15.408

that it's it's tough but

01:00:15.448 --> 01:00:17.388

what what now like how can

01:00:17.568 --> 01:00:18.948

I get some help about maybe

01:00:18.968 --> 01:00:20.269

um avert like changing my

01:00:20.309 --> 01:00:21.569

behavior or changing but it

01:00:21.589 --> 01:00:23.130

was always just don't start

01:00:23.150 --> 01:00:23.850

don't start don't start

01:00:23.870 --> 01:00:26.911

yeah and I now looking back

01:00:26.971 --> 01:00:29.071

again knowing that I very

01:00:29.131 --> 01:00:30.612

likely was not the only one

01:00:30.652 --> 01:00:32.112

in that room dealing with stuff

01:00:33.455 --> 01:00:34.896

not a helpful message at all

01:00:35.837 --> 01:00:37.838

to these kids who have the

01:00:37.878 --> 01:00:39.179

internet on their phones.

01:00:39.499 --> 01:00:42.482

And again, I understand that parents,

01:00:43.023 --> 01:00:43.203

you know,

01:00:43.223 --> 01:00:46.125

they put on apps to lock things down.

01:00:47.346 --> 01:00:49.047

I can promise you if a kid

01:00:49.067 --> 01:00:50.007

wants to find something,

01:00:50.808 --> 01:00:51.388

there's a really good

01:00:51.408 --> 01:00:52.489

chance they will find it.

01:00:53.416 --> 01:00:54.577

Thank you for saying that too,

01:00:54.617 --> 01:00:55.518

because I think a lot of

01:00:55.558 --> 01:00:57.200

parents believe that they

01:00:57.240 --> 01:00:58.341

can lock down their kids'

01:00:58.381 --> 01:00:59.162

phones and there's

01:00:59.262 --> 01:01:01.004

absolutely no way that it gets in.

01:01:01.696 --> 01:01:03.497

but there are workarounds.

01:01:03.717 --> 01:01:05.297

There are workarounds.

01:01:05.397 --> 01:01:06.378

And I mean,

01:01:06.398 --> 01:01:08.899

and this is just for humor's sake,

01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:10.159

but one workaround I did

01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:11.500

find was actually through

01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:14.281

the church's app that took

01:01:14.321 --> 01:01:15.722

you like from one link to another,

01:01:15.762 --> 01:01:16.282

to another,

01:01:16.362 --> 01:01:17.402

that I could then use like an

01:01:17.522 --> 01:01:18.403

unfiltered Google.

01:01:18.883 --> 01:01:20.083

I'm not saying go do that,

01:01:20.143 --> 01:01:21.784

but I did find there's some

01:01:21.904 --> 01:01:22.224

irony in that.

01:01:22.244 --> 01:01:23.645

That's very ironic.

01:01:24.645 --> 01:01:25.605

But yeah, so, you know,

01:01:25.625 --> 01:01:29.427

and I understand that these parents were,

01:01:30.856 --> 01:01:31.657

doing their best,

01:01:31.977 --> 01:01:33.498

but I viewed them because

01:01:33.518 --> 01:01:34.399

they're church leaders.

01:01:34.459 --> 01:01:36.180

Like it wasn't just, I didn't,

01:01:36.220 --> 01:01:37.921

because they were my friend's parents,

01:01:37.941 --> 01:01:38.762

but I didn't view them as

01:01:38.822 --> 01:01:39.762

my friend's parents.

01:01:40.383 --> 01:01:41.183

I assumed that throughout

01:01:41.223 --> 01:01:42.665

the week they had prayed

01:01:42.685 --> 01:01:44.166

about what they're going to teach us.

01:01:44.366 --> 01:01:46.527

And there's some sort of God

01:01:46.547 --> 01:01:48.929

to person revelation going on.

01:01:48.969 --> 01:01:50.190

So what I'm hearing from them,

01:01:50.250 --> 01:01:50.970

I didn't take as their

01:01:51.011 --> 01:01:53.933

opinion or their thoughts on the matter.

01:01:54.733 --> 01:01:55.954

There was God sprinkled in

01:01:55.994 --> 01:01:56.534

there somewhere.

01:01:56.815 --> 01:01:59.377

So I'm thinking, man, God is really,

01:02:00.347 --> 01:02:01.369

committed to not having

01:02:01.409 --> 01:02:02.531

people start this but once

01:02:02.571 --> 01:02:04.654

they start i guess although

01:02:04.674 --> 01:02:05.976

he's all powerful he seems

01:02:06.056 --> 01:02:07.118

pretty limited in his

01:02:07.138 --> 01:02:08.780

ability to to direct you

01:02:08.860 --> 01:02:11.164

how to stop you know people

01:02:11.224 --> 01:02:13.127

from doing this so yeah i

01:02:13.207 --> 01:02:14.189

don't know god might need

01:02:15.533 --> 01:02:18.094

practice on you know maybe

01:02:18.134 --> 01:02:19.454

but i was just i was just

01:02:19.474 --> 01:02:20.935

discouraged because again i

01:02:20.955 --> 01:02:21.955

was feeling i was hearing

01:02:21.995 --> 01:02:22.676

this message of an

01:02:22.736 --> 01:02:24.296

all-powerful god about a

01:02:24.336 --> 01:02:26.177

jesus who when once you

01:02:26.237 --> 01:02:28.318

confess your sins it goes

01:02:28.358 --> 01:02:31.539

from um red as uh you know

01:02:31.579 --> 01:02:33.960

crimson to white as sheep's

01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:36.060

wool but then hearing other

01:02:36.100 --> 01:02:37.061

things about well it's

01:02:37.121 --> 01:02:38.181

always like in the back of

01:02:38.201 --> 01:02:40.502

your mind for recall so i

01:02:40.522 --> 01:02:41.822

guess this is the one sin

01:02:41.862 --> 01:02:43.163

where there's like oh it's

01:02:43.945 --> 01:02:44.906

It's not white as wool.

01:02:44.926 --> 01:02:46.528

It's like pink a little bit.

01:02:46.628 --> 01:02:46.908

Like,

01:02:47.329 --> 01:02:49.111

how can I be completely clean when

01:02:49.131 --> 01:02:51.033

they're telling me if you start,

01:02:51.554 --> 01:02:52.755

it'll be really tough to stop.

01:02:52.975 --> 01:02:54.597

But isn't God like it was

01:02:54.637 --> 01:02:56.539

just so discouraging as a

01:02:56.599 --> 01:02:57.861

kid to be hearing what I

01:02:58.001 --> 01:02:59.422

felt like were mixed messages about.

01:03:00.383 --> 01:03:01.685

Yes, God can stop us.

01:03:02.105 --> 01:03:03.126

It's really hard for him.

01:03:03.547 --> 01:03:04.248

It's really like.

01:03:05.532 --> 01:03:08.074

He's like, oh man, another lewd case.

01:03:08.234 --> 01:03:08.755

Oh my God,

01:03:08.895 --> 01:03:10.176

I really wish this was just like

01:03:10.196 --> 01:03:11.937

a green tea situation.

01:03:12.237 --> 01:03:14.539

That one's really easy for me to help.

01:03:14.659 --> 01:03:16.380

But yeah,

01:03:16.460 --> 01:03:18.462

I was just so discouraged hearing

01:03:18.642 --> 01:03:20.223

these messages as a kid about,

01:03:21.269 --> 01:03:23.150

what happens if you start and it was,

01:03:23.630 --> 01:03:26.071

it really made me think I'm gross,

01:03:26.211 --> 01:03:26.711

I'm bad.

01:03:27.071 --> 01:03:30.292

I did what is evil because in the church,

01:03:30.813 --> 01:03:32.754

there isn't an official sin

01:03:32.834 --> 01:03:34.755

list about what is top and what is,

01:03:35.636 --> 01:03:37.657

bottom but there is like a

01:03:38.358 --> 01:03:40.019

unofficial top three that

01:03:40.039 --> 01:03:41.559

gets thrown around from a

01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:43.120

certain set of scripture in

01:03:43.160 --> 01:03:45.222

the book of mormon and that

01:03:45.502 --> 01:03:47.303

um that top three is one is

01:03:47.323 --> 01:03:49.784

uh you kill someone murder

01:03:49.824 --> 01:03:51.725

someone um or maybe

01:03:52.085 --> 01:03:53.086

actually i've been out of

01:03:53.126 --> 01:03:54.787

the game one or two are is

01:03:54.867 --> 01:03:56.328

it could be it's um

01:03:56.928 --> 01:03:57.729

murdering someone and

01:03:57.749 --> 01:03:59.510

denying the holy ghost and

01:03:59.530 --> 01:04:00.891

then it's sexual sin um

01:04:02.013 --> 01:04:02.934

Those are the top three.

01:04:03.434 --> 01:04:04.554

And they would put in

01:04:04.634 --> 01:04:07.756

pornography use with that sexual sin.

01:04:08.196 --> 01:04:09.737

And if you think of the idea

01:04:09.777 --> 01:04:11.618

of like harm that can be

01:04:11.678 --> 01:04:13.699

done through sexual ways,

01:04:14.140 --> 01:04:15.260

that there's obviously a

01:04:16.201 --> 01:04:18.542

huge realm of things.

01:04:18.622 --> 01:04:19.943

And to put pornography with

01:04:20.363 --> 01:04:22.164

some of those that I won't mention.

01:04:24.851 --> 01:04:26.992

is is wild yeah and so at

01:04:27.052 --> 01:04:28.812

ten eleven twelve not only

01:04:28.832 --> 01:04:30.213

am i discouraged not only

01:04:30.233 --> 01:04:31.373

am i thinking all these

01:04:31.393 --> 01:04:33.854

things i'm learning again

01:04:33.894 --> 01:04:35.055

from people who i think are

01:04:35.275 --> 01:04:36.655

inspired in some way by god

01:04:37.796 --> 01:04:40.157

that i am almost a

01:04:40.237 --> 01:04:42.657

murdering the denier of the

01:04:42.697 --> 01:04:45.498

holy ghost like i am really

01:04:45.518 --> 01:04:48.299

close to to doing those

01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:49.180

types of things so

01:04:50.952 --> 01:04:53.173

a wild thought to have as a

01:04:53.573 --> 01:04:56.155

kid that I'm an almost murderer.

01:04:56.355 --> 01:04:57.235

Yeah, exactly.

01:04:57.416 --> 01:04:58.516

Yeah.

01:04:58.736 --> 01:05:00.177

It's such a harmful teaching

01:05:00.817 --> 01:05:01.578

and so prevalent.

01:05:01.598 --> 01:05:04.539

And I felt the same way as a young person,

01:05:04.579 --> 01:05:07.161

too, if there was any kind of sin

01:05:08.202 --> 01:05:10.023

that was physical or sexual

01:05:10.464 --> 01:05:11.625

that you know that that

01:05:11.665 --> 01:05:12.585

you're pretty much you're

01:05:12.645 --> 01:05:14.247

almost to to a murderer and

01:05:14.267 --> 01:05:15.307

that and that gets

01:05:15.628 --> 01:05:16.909

sprinkled into conversation

01:05:16.929 --> 01:05:18.270

all the time and when you

01:05:18.290 --> 01:05:19.611

were talking about the

01:05:19.691 --> 01:05:21.372

leaders who were really

01:05:21.732 --> 01:05:22.633

just the parents of your

01:05:22.673 --> 01:05:25.395

friends but also sprinkled

01:05:25.435 --> 01:05:26.536

into the conversation all

01:05:26.576 --> 01:05:28.357

the time is i really prayed

01:05:28.377 --> 01:05:30.219

about this lesson i really

01:05:30.259 --> 01:05:31.640

prayed about what i should

01:05:31.680 --> 01:05:33.461

say today i really felt

01:05:33.521 --> 01:05:34.582

prompted that this is what

01:05:34.602 --> 01:05:36.544

god wants me to say and so

01:05:37.144 --> 01:05:38.724

kids getting these messages

01:05:38.764 --> 01:05:39.585

from the adults,

01:05:40.045 --> 01:05:41.165

it really feels like it's

01:05:41.185 --> 01:05:42.365

coming directly from God.

01:05:42.405 --> 01:05:45.466

Like, okay, she may not know what I did,

01:05:45.766 --> 01:05:47.227

but God told her to talk

01:05:47.247 --> 01:05:48.887

about that because I'm sitting here.

01:05:49.407 --> 01:05:50.648

It really feels like those

01:05:50.708 --> 01:05:52.708

messages are like right there for you.

01:05:53.208 --> 01:05:54.349

And as long as we're on the

01:05:54.389 --> 01:05:56.209

conversation of lewd material,

01:05:57.230 --> 01:05:58.210

I want to talk about

01:05:59.377 --> 01:06:01.678

the fact that there is so

01:06:01.718 --> 01:06:03.119

much stigma around the

01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:05.860

perfectly normative human

01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:08.501

developmental behavior of self-pleasure.

01:06:09.162 --> 01:06:13.584

And I'm sure that from a male perspective,

01:06:13.624 --> 01:06:14.604

it was very different from

01:06:14.644 --> 01:06:15.965

the messages I received.

01:06:16.065 --> 01:06:17.866

We hardly got talked to

01:06:17.906 --> 01:06:18.947

about that at all because

01:06:18.987 --> 01:06:20.047

it was considered something

01:06:20.067 --> 01:06:21.488

that females didn't even do.

01:06:22.268 --> 01:06:24.769

And I can't imagine as a young man,

01:06:25.250 --> 01:06:25.710

and again,

01:06:25.730 --> 01:06:26.690

you're in this addiction

01:06:26.730 --> 01:06:27.931

recovery program with

01:06:28.956 --> 01:06:29.657

thirty, forty,

01:06:29.697 --> 01:06:32.019

fifty-year-old men who are

01:06:32.339 --> 01:06:33.240

receiving these same

01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:34.621

harmful messages and

01:06:34.661 --> 01:06:36.382

basically being told that

01:06:36.883 --> 01:06:39.865

viewing lewd material or self-pleasure,

01:06:40.526 --> 01:06:42.528

they're both addictions and

01:06:42.548 --> 01:06:43.969

you're being told not to do

01:06:44.049 --> 01:06:45.270

it and that if you do it,

01:06:45.330 --> 01:06:47.012

you're next to murder.

01:06:47.616 --> 01:06:50.257

yeah yeah i just in

01:06:50.317 --> 01:06:51.338

conversations with my

01:06:51.638 --> 01:06:52.539

sisters i have two younger

01:06:52.559 --> 01:06:53.579

sisters what i've been able

01:06:53.999 --> 01:06:56.501

to do uh to deduce is that

01:06:57.521 --> 01:06:58.562

a lot of the gendered

01:06:58.662 --> 01:07:00.123

lessons to women were about

01:07:00.183 --> 01:07:01.864

modesty and then a lot of

01:07:01.884 --> 01:07:04.765

the gendered uh lessons

01:07:04.785 --> 01:07:06.146

towards men were about lewd

01:07:06.186 --> 01:07:07.587

material and self-pleasure

01:07:08.047 --> 01:07:09.908

and like is that exactly

01:07:09.948 --> 01:07:11.429

like you mentioned yeah um

01:07:12.460 --> 01:07:13.260

Both are addictive.

01:07:13.360 --> 01:07:14.480

Both are bad, for sure.

01:07:15.348 --> 01:07:16.929

Nothing about them is natural.

01:07:17.969 --> 01:07:19.209

The idea that it's natural

01:07:19.309 --> 01:07:22.350

is Satan's desire to soften

01:07:22.510 --> 01:07:25.072

how big of a deal both are.

01:07:27.273 --> 01:07:29.613

And yeah, they're sins.

01:07:29.733 --> 01:07:30.888

They keep you away from

01:07:30.946 --> 01:07:32.787

the spirit, you become unworthy,

01:07:33.428 --> 01:07:36.210

and they are right there with murder.

01:07:36.971 --> 01:07:38.472

And along those lines,

01:07:38.572 --> 01:07:39.632

I remember a lesson that we

01:07:39.673 --> 01:07:40.066

had where

01:07:40.066 --> 01:07:41.756

final interview with

01:07:42.296 --> 01:07:44.458

notorious serial killer Ted Bundy,

01:07:45.378 --> 01:07:47.280

where they ask him, basically,

01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:50.622

how did you get into killing people?

01:07:51.863 --> 01:07:54.012

And he talks about how he and

01:07:55.623 --> 01:07:58.127

the other hardened criminals in the, um,

01:07:58.227 --> 01:08:00.088

in prison with them, it all started with,

01:08:00.108 --> 01:08:00.148

uh,

01:08:00.489 --> 01:08:02.871

lewd material that just got worse and

01:08:02.891 --> 01:08:05.614

worse and then whatever.

01:08:05.794 --> 01:08:06.014

Um,

01:08:06.094 --> 01:08:09.457

and so we were shown that and basically

01:08:09.477 --> 01:08:12.760

like shown that and then kind of like,

01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:14.301

just so you know, there you go.

01:08:14.581 --> 01:08:15.022

Make your own,

01:08:15.042 --> 01:08:17.083

come to your own conclusion on what,

01:08:17.163 --> 01:08:19.085

why we showed this to you at church.

01:08:19.824 --> 01:08:23.090

And the clear, obvious message was,

01:08:23.933 --> 01:08:25.236

here's just another road

01:08:25.556 --> 01:08:26.698

that viewing this kind of

01:08:26.718 --> 01:08:28.541

stuff can take you down.

01:08:29.283 --> 01:08:31.406

And so along with all these thoughts of,

01:08:32.100 --> 01:08:34.083

these horrible feelings, I was like, well,

01:08:34.183 --> 01:08:35.304

I'm just like Ted Bundy.

01:08:35.565 --> 01:08:37.367

Look at, I'm like a mini,

01:08:37.407 --> 01:08:38.188

like I'm almost there.

01:08:38.268 --> 01:08:39.109

Like not almost there,

01:08:39.129 --> 01:08:40.331

but like I'm on the same road.

01:08:40.551 --> 01:08:41.733

Like I've stepped off.

01:08:42.033 --> 01:08:44.757

I've stepped from God's path

01:08:44.877 --> 01:08:46.058

to Ted Bundy's path.

01:08:46.379 --> 01:08:48.061

What a...

01:08:48.553 --> 01:08:49.974

bad step that was.

01:08:52.236 --> 01:08:52.576

And again,

01:08:52.656 --> 01:08:53.957

I always would get frustrated

01:08:53.977 --> 01:08:54.718

and I've done a lot of

01:08:55.259 --> 01:08:56.761

inner child work with

01:08:56.801 --> 01:08:58.562

therapists that has been so

01:08:59.022 --> 01:09:01.304

great because I grew to

01:09:01.344 --> 01:09:04.127

resent and absolutely hate

01:09:04.647 --> 01:09:05.408

ten-year-old me.

01:09:05.768 --> 01:09:06.869

So I'd always think if I had

01:09:06.889 --> 01:09:09.811

just not challenged my classmates,

01:09:10.532 --> 01:09:11.893

then I wouldn't be on the

01:09:11.933 --> 01:09:14.295

Ted Bundy path that I

01:09:14.375 --> 01:09:15.616

seemingly can't get off of.

01:09:17.795 --> 01:09:19.355

And I would think about that

01:09:19.395 --> 01:09:21.676

version of me and just weep

01:09:21.696 --> 01:09:25.197

and cry and just hate that part of me,

01:09:25.337 --> 01:09:26.958

which is not great for your

01:09:26.978 --> 01:09:27.658

mental health.

01:09:27.838 --> 01:09:28.598

Right.

01:09:28.898 --> 01:09:30.899

And so I've been so grateful

01:09:31.499 --> 01:09:33.740

for the work of therapists,

01:09:33.940 --> 01:09:35.400

particularly one who I met

01:09:35.440 --> 01:09:37.801

with in Utah prior to

01:09:37.821 --> 01:09:38.901

coming down here to San Antonio.

01:09:39.405 --> 01:09:40.686

where we did a lot of inner

01:09:41.186 --> 01:09:42.727

child healing where he

01:09:42.747 --> 01:09:44.668

would have me mentally go

01:09:44.708 --> 01:09:47.130

back and sit and be with

01:09:47.170 --> 01:09:48.651

that ten-year-old me with

01:09:49.231 --> 01:09:52.133

how I view life now and

01:09:52.173 --> 01:09:53.193

just have compassion for

01:09:53.233 --> 01:09:56.035

him and have complete love

01:09:56.055 --> 01:09:57.956

for him and knowing that

01:09:58.056 --> 01:10:00.378

what he did the intent was

01:10:01.501 --> 01:10:03.762

comically pure to try to

01:10:03.842 --> 01:10:05.862

prove a classmate wrong,

01:10:05.902 --> 01:10:07.362

that this website is illegal.

01:10:07.763 --> 01:10:09.323

There's no way George Bush

01:10:09.343 --> 01:10:10.523

at the time would approve

01:10:11.503 --> 01:10:13.424

of such a website to be

01:10:13.624 --> 01:10:14.804

allowed on the internet.

01:10:15.564 --> 01:10:18.225

And one thing led to another,

01:10:18.325 --> 01:10:19.505

and that's all that happened.

01:10:19.605 --> 01:10:21.006

It wasn't evidence of me as

01:10:21.166 --> 01:10:23.366

being an evil person, being an evil,

01:10:24.003 --> 01:10:25.143

going on down this path,

01:10:25.163 --> 01:10:27.604

this Ted Bundy-like path or anything.

01:10:29.877 --> 01:10:30.778

what it looked like on the

01:10:30.818 --> 01:10:32.580

surface is what it actually was.

01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:34.501

There's no deeper thing at all.

01:10:34.641 --> 01:10:35.823

It was just a kid trying to

01:10:35.843 --> 01:10:37.784

prove another kid wrong and

01:10:37.864 --> 01:10:38.805

comically gone wrong.

01:10:38.885 --> 01:10:39.626

It does sound like a

01:10:39.946 --> 01:10:42.409

decently humorous episode of a TV show.

01:10:42.449 --> 01:10:44.911

And that's all it was, you know?

01:10:45.091 --> 01:10:47.213

And so just to go back then

01:10:47.774 --> 01:10:49.956

and heal that part and

01:10:50.554 --> 01:10:52.575

really a lot of my childhood

01:10:52.615 --> 01:10:56.638

and feel peace and love for

01:10:56.678 --> 01:10:57.859

that younger version of me

01:10:57.919 --> 01:10:59.620

that I despise for so long

01:10:59.660 --> 01:11:00.760

has been so healing.

01:11:01.141 --> 01:11:03.502

It has been so good for me now.

01:11:03.642 --> 01:11:03.802

And I,

01:11:04.042 --> 01:11:05.263

and I never would have thought about

01:11:05.303 --> 01:11:07.484

the idea of like inner child work.

01:11:07.504 --> 01:11:08.485

What does that even mean?

01:11:08.565 --> 01:11:10.466

How can you go back?

01:11:11.147 --> 01:11:11.227

Um,

01:11:11.347 --> 01:11:13.268

cause sometimes I can get over logical

01:11:13.288 --> 01:11:13.668

and like, well,

01:11:13.708 --> 01:11:14.549

I'm right here and I'm just

01:11:14.569 --> 01:11:15.790

old and whatever.

01:11:15.810 --> 01:11:16.125

And,

01:11:16.845 --> 01:11:19.067

just the wonder and great

01:11:19.087 --> 01:11:20.408

things that have been able

01:11:20.428 --> 01:11:22.910

to happen just to even put

01:11:22.930 --> 01:11:24.772

your mind back there can do

01:11:24.812 --> 01:11:25.333

a lot of good.

01:11:25.713 --> 01:11:25.913

Yeah.

01:11:25.973 --> 01:11:27.094

It's pretty cool.

01:11:27.394 --> 01:11:27.635

Yeah.

01:11:27.695 --> 01:11:29.016

Thank you so much for being

01:11:29.076 --> 01:11:30.998

vulnerable enough to share that with us,

01:11:31.078 --> 01:11:32.559

because I think there

01:11:32.579 --> 01:11:34.341

probably are a lot of men out there who

01:11:35.065 --> 01:11:36.466

wonder about that you know

01:11:36.706 --> 01:11:37.706

what what would i do in

01:11:37.746 --> 01:11:38.747

therapy and what good would

01:11:38.807 --> 01:11:40.027

it even do and you know

01:11:40.047 --> 01:11:42.048

should i even go and i

01:11:42.088 --> 01:11:43.549

wonder if there's any part

01:11:43.589 --> 01:11:48.912

of you that felt um shamed

01:11:49.012 --> 01:11:51.013

for any sort of weakness

01:11:51.053 --> 01:11:52.513

around mental health or or

01:11:52.593 --> 01:12:00.437

any of that yeah um so in my home the

01:12:02.235 --> 01:12:03.276

atmosphere that my parents

01:12:03.296 --> 01:12:04.776

created around mental

01:12:04.816 --> 01:12:07.158

health was very open and very healthy.

01:12:07.598 --> 01:12:08.759

And I'm very grateful for that.

01:12:12.501 --> 01:12:16.163

At school, just society in general,

01:12:16.643 --> 01:12:18.004

I did receive those

01:12:18.044 --> 01:12:19.604

messages of this is what a man is.

01:12:21.126 --> 01:12:22.467

strong at all times he's

01:12:22.527 --> 01:12:25.150

pretty stoic um doesn't cry

01:12:26.171 --> 01:12:27.472

um you hear these stories

01:12:27.512 --> 01:12:28.413

of people who will talk

01:12:28.433 --> 01:12:29.093

about they've seen their

01:12:29.374 --> 01:12:31.095

you know their dad cry like

01:12:31.115 --> 01:12:33.117

twice in their life you

01:12:33.157 --> 01:12:34.558

know uh when maybe when

01:12:34.578 --> 01:12:36.940

their grandpa passed away

01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:38.201

and then some you know or

01:12:38.241 --> 01:12:39.683

whatever and they're kind

01:12:39.703 --> 01:12:41.484

of told about this in a way

01:12:41.524 --> 01:12:43.987

of like and and how strong

01:12:44.067 --> 01:12:45.948

is is that you know how

01:12:49.138 --> 01:12:51.639

it's shared to be kind of

01:12:51.679 --> 01:12:54.982

this like strong man

01:12:55.022 --> 01:12:56.103

promoting kind of story.

01:12:57.604 --> 01:12:58.985

And so while I did grow up

01:12:59.025 --> 01:13:00.526

in this home that was really open,

01:13:00.886 --> 01:13:01.566

I did find myself

01:13:01.606 --> 01:13:03.188

susceptible just as a

01:13:03.588 --> 01:13:04.529

person trying to find their

01:13:04.549 --> 01:13:05.849

own way in life and hear

01:13:05.890 --> 01:13:06.690

different voices.

01:13:08.231 --> 01:13:09.572

Those were inevitable to hear.

01:13:10.253 --> 01:13:10.473

Well,

01:13:12.028 --> 01:13:13.869

yes like therapy can be good

01:13:13.929 --> 01:13:15.790

and this can be good but

01:13:15.830 --> 01:13:17.251

like you gotta be like you

01:13:17.291 --> 01:13:18.272

gotta come out of it really

01:13:18.332 --> 01:13:19.613

strong and like you gotta

01:13:19.653 --> 01:13:21.774

get really you gotta come

01:13:21.834 --> 01:13:22.875

out of it like healed

01:13:23.195 --> 01:13:24.776

completely and like not

01:13:25.216 --> 01:13:26.597

have any and no admission

01:13:26.617 --> 01:13:28.378

of like i'm working on this

01:13:28.819 --> 01:13:31.981

and no admission of um this

01:13:32.081 --> 01:13:34.142

this is still tough like

01:13:34.662 --> 01:13:36.103

you can you can go to these

01:13:36.143 --> 01:13:38.465

places for for help but like

01:13:39.462 --> 01:13:40.442

And then you're healed, then it's done.

01:13:40.462 --> 01:13:42.863

You come out and it's a

01:13:42.903 --> 01:13:44.144

finished kind of product.

01:13:44.664 --> 01:13:45.724

And now you're back to where

01:13:45.744 --> 01:13:47.545

you're strong again,

01:13:47.585 --> 01:13:50.366

you're good and whatever.

01:13:50.406 --> 01:13:51.306

So did you feel this

01:13:51.386 --> 01:13:53.967

pressure that you could

01:13:54.047 --> 01:13:56.048

only have mental help or

01:13:56.108 --> 01:13:57.348

therapy for a certain

01:13:57.388 --> 01:13:58.809

amount of time and then

01:13:59.129 --> 01:14:00.410

like quickly you had to be

01:14:00.450 --> 01:14:02.150

healed and come back and

01:14:02.170 --> 01:14:03.311

you could only talk about

01:14:03.451 --> 01:14:05.471

therapy or struggles in the past tense?

01:14:07.768 --> 01:14:11.331

Yeah, there were times in my life,

01:14:12.172 --> 01:14:13.013

and I think really

01:14:13.033 --> 01:14:14.454

particularly after my mission,

01:14:14.634 --> 01:14:19.278

because I had gained this idea where, yes,

01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:21.941

I needed help,

01:14:22.001 --> 01:14:23.762

and that help would be a benefit for me.

01:14:24.203 --> 01:14:25.824

But I did have this overall belief that,

01:14:25.844 --> 01:14:29.347

like, with God, all things are possible,

01:14:29.387 --> 01:14:33.851

and he can kind of fill in the –

01:14:32.019 --> 01:14:34.100

the pieces and the holes and stuff.

01:14:34.120 --> 01:14:38.402

So mental health help was

01:14:38.462 --> 01:14:40.923

always seen to be kind of

01:14:40.943 --> 01:14:45.865

the secondary assistance to God.

01:14:45.885 --> 01:14:47.626

And then God was this

01:14:47.686 --> 01:14:49.187

greater help that he could

01:14:49.627 --> 01:14:51.288

heal all sorts of things.

01:14:51.308 --> 01:14:54.469

And then mixing that in with

01:14:54.509 --> 01:14:55.710

some of these images of

01:14:56.250 --> 01:14:57.831

masculinity and manhood

01:14:57.851 --> 01:14:58.531

that I was seeing,

01:15:00.074 --> 01:15:01.956

the type of celebrated

01:15:01.996 --> 01:15:03.797

masculinity that I was seeing,

01:15:04.678 --> 01:15:05.478

I wasn't seeing people

01:15:05.719 --> 01:15:08.241

admit to hardship or weakness.

01:15:09.642 --> 01:15:10.542

And so whether they're not,

01:15:10.903 --> 01:15:13.405

there wasn't like a direct like, hey,

01:15:14.906 --> 01:15:15.967

talking about this stuff,

01:15:16.247 --> 01:15:17.508

there's only a certain timetable.

01:15:19.169 --> 01:15:20.050

Once you've done it,

01:15:20.110 --> 01:15:21.932

you're out of it and whatnot.

01:15:22.712 --> 01:15:23.453

But that was just kind of

01:15:23.473 --> 01:15:24.413

what I had gathered.

01:15:25.210 --> 01:15:26.711

from everything surrounding

01:15:26.751 --> 01:15:28.632

me and my beliefs at the time was like,

01:15:28.652 --> 01:15:29.612

this is a kind of a

01:15:29.672 --> 01:15:31.853

temporary fix to get me to

01:15:31.873 --> 01:15:33.234

a place where God can just

01:15:33.274 --> 01:15:34.475

kind of handle the rest.

01:15:35.195 --> 01:15:36.136

And then I can just kind of

01:15:36.416 --> 01:15:37.977

turn into all these other

01:15:37.997 --> 01:15:38.997

forms of masculinity that

01:15:39.017 --> 01:15:41.138

I'm seeing where they seem pretty good.

01:15:42.279 --> 01:15:43.860

Everything seems pretty figured out.

01:15:44.500 --> 01:15:45.801

And when tough times come,

01:15:46.541 --> 01:15:48.262

they respond toughly and everything's,

01:15:49.323 --> 01:15:51.544

good and, and, uh,

01:15:51.564 --> 01:15:52.985

the tough situation gets beaten,

01:15:53.025 --> 01:15:54.546

like kind of big, tough, strong guy.

01:15:54.566 --> 01:15:54.686

Yeah.

01:15:55.606 --> 01:15:57.147

Um, so yeah, I'll, I'll,

01:15:57.167 --> 01:15:58.248

I'll go to therapy now to

01:15:58.268 --> 01:15:59.128

get me to a place where

01:15:59.148 --> 01:16:01.129

then I can transform into

01:16:01.169 --> 01:16:01.869

this greater thing.

01:16:01.949 --> 01:16:03.290

I did not think of like, well,

01:16:03.410 --> 01:16:04.010

I might be seeing a

01:16:04.050 --> 01:16:07.012

therapist until I pass away.

01:16:07.712 --> 01:16:07.792

Yeah.

01:16:07.812 --> 01:16:08.953

I definitely did not see it

01:16:09.033 --> 01:16:12.014

as like this prolonged, um,

01:16:12.275 --> 01:16:13.835

forever type thing.

01:16:13.855 --> 01:16:14.516

It was like, okay,

01:16:15.116 --> 01:16:15.956

I'm really struggling now.

01:16:15.976 --> 01:16:16.717

I'll get to a place where

01:16:16.737 --> 01:16:18.938

I'm on shore ground and

01:16:19.408 --> 01:16:21.612

And then that will be,

01:16:21.872 --> 01:16:23.455

that was my therapy era, you know,

01:16:23.696 --> 01:16:26.460

now I'm past it and I'm good.

01:16:26.501 --> 01:16:26.921

And here we go.

01:16:26.961 --> 01:16:28.384

That's definitely how I felt.

01:16:28.837 --> 01:16:30.038

like you're like you're not

01:16:30.058 --> 01:16:31.158

going to need ongoing

01:16:31.198 --> 01:16:32.299

therapy like you're just

01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:33.420

going to have these tools

01:16:33.440 --> 01:16:34.420

and you'll be this healed

01:16:34.460 --> 01:16:35.561

human being and then no

01:16:35.601 --> 01:16:36.722

matter what happens in your

01:16:36.742 --> 01:16:37.562

life you'll never need

01:16:37.602 --> 01:16:38.983

therapy again yeah and i

01:16:39.123 --> 01:16:41.885

and i think there's people

01:16:41.925 --> 01:16:43.186

talk about therapy and i

01:16:43.226 --> 01:16:44.086

think it comes from a place

01:16:44.126 --> 01:16:46.047

of trying to normalize it

01:16:46.788 --> 01:16:47.829

um but they'll compare it

01:16:47.849 --> 01:16:49.049

to like having a broken arm

01:16:49.089 --> 01:16:49.790

or a broken leg or

01:16:49.810 --> 01:16:51.251

something which again i

01:16:51.411 --> 01:16:52.651

completely understand where

01:16:52.671 --> 01:16:53.472

it's coming from but

01:16:53.512 --> 01:16:54.593

eventually a broken arm

01:16:55.253 --> 01:16:58.094

does heal to a place or most of the time,

01:16:58.154 --> 01:16:59.014

I'm not a doctor.

01:16:59.074 --> 01:17:00.195

There's probably some

01:17:00.215 --> 01:17:01.195

forever broken arms out there.

01:17:01.215 --> 01:17:01.775

I don't know.

01:17:01.795 --> 01:17:04.136

But for example, like I broke my,

01:17:04.476 --> 01:17:07.117

my arm as a kid and now my arm's fine.

01:17:07.917 --> 01:17:08.337

Yeah.

01:17:09.278 --> 01:17:10.538

And I think I had that view

01:17:10.578 --> 01:17:13.139

of therapy for a long time of like, yeah,

01:17:13.159 --> 01:17:14.019

I'm in a place where my

01:17:14.779 --> 01:17:16.360

brain is pretty broken.

01:17:17.120 --> 01:17:18.140

So then I'll go to therapy.

01:17:18.220 --> 01:17:19.821

I'll get on medication for a time.

01:17:20.921 --> 01:17:21.642

Then I'll get through it.

01:17:22.042 --> 01:17:22.502

Yeah.

01:17:22.562 --> 01:17:23.102

And then I'll be fine.

01:17:24.240 --> 01:17:27.121

when it's more of a chronic

01:17:27.221 --> 01:17:29.382

illness in a lot of ways for most people.

01:17:30.003 --> 01:17:30.403

And I mean,

01:17:30.503 --> 01:17:32.204

obviously there are episodes and whatnot.

01:17:32.224 --> 01:17:32.924

So those types of

01:17:33.984 --> 01:17:34.845

relationships with

01:17:35.225 --> 01:17:37.886

depression and anxiety do exist.

01:17:38.446 --> 01:17:42.348

But I've come to discover my

01:17:43.388 --> 01:17:44.229

relationship with those

01:17:44.249 --> 01:17:46.030

things are more chronic than not chronic.

01:17:47.070 --> 01:17:48.130

And it took me a while to

01:17:48.611 --> 01:17:51.752

accept that and be okay

01:17:51.772 --> 01:17:53.373

with that and not view it as like,

01:17:54.967 --> 01:17:57.268

a negative or just like

01:17:57.308 --> 01:17:58.689

something that is keeping

01:17:58.729 --> 01:18:00.911

me from being strong and

01:18:01.151 --> 01:18:04.033

tough and uh brisley or

01:18:04.073 --> 01:18:05.654

whatever kind of more macho

01:18:05.714 --> 01:18:07.975

type of an idea yeah yeah

01:18:07.995 --> 01:18:09.056

thank you for being willing

01:18:09.096 --> 01:18:10.837

to say that i think there

01:18:10.897 --> 01:18:12.699

are so many people who

01:18:13.950 --> 01:18:15.831

view it as there's something

01:18:15.871 --> 01:18:17.871

wrong with me if this is a

01:18:17.911 --> 01:18:18.791

chronic condition,

01:18:19.071 --> 01:18:20.512

if I don't just solve it

01:18:20.572 --> 01:18:21.412

and be done with it.

01:18:21.772 --> 01:18:24.133

And even me,

01:18:24.553 --> 01:18:25.973

my background is coming from

01:18:26.053 --> 01:18:30.715

complex PTSD and also depression, anxiety,

01:18:30.795 --> 01:18:32.875

had those for a long time.

01:18:33.455 --> 01:18:34.796

I feel like I'm at a place

01:18:34.856 --> 01:18:37.677

now where I don't need constant therapy.

01:18:38.701 --> 01:18:40.562

But I still do struggle with

01:18:40.582 --> 01:18:41.383

those feelings.

01:18:41.603 --> 01:18:42.604

And there definitely are

01:18:42.664 --> 01:18:45.045

times like my therapist is on speed dial.

01:18:45.105 --> 01:18:46.586