Healing From The Childhood Grief Caused By Family Dysfunction with Jessica Kate

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the end Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this word, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Grief Code for this week and great pleasure in introducing my guest, Jessica. Kate, how are you? Jessica?

Jessica Kate 1:11

I'm amazing. Thank you for having me.

Ian Hawkins 1:13

You're welcome. What drew me to you is that I love the the stories you do and the confidence you bring in like we were talking before we jumped in is It's your ability to really stand in your strength and your power, which I think is really attractive. Is that something that you've had to spend a fair bit of time and energy on actually being in that sort of energy?

Jessica Kate 1:37

Well, in Acts, it actually happened accidentally, because of my upbringing, which will go into different facets of my life and shags. I'm very open, transparent person. And that's what allows people to feel safe to open up and learn and grow. You know, in that container that I hold space for the men but I feel that it actually was a battle in the past for me to step out of my masculine and more into my feminine because of my upbringing and life's adversities. Subconsciously, I had created this, this identity of that powerhouse bull busting babe that needed to survive, right, I had created an identity that I thought I needed in order to survive in life,

Ian Hawkins 2:20

which we all do. We all we all crave these different parts of us to keep us safe and to be able to move forward. I love that. And you can identify that. So we talked about before you jumped on also about the challenges around being attractive physically, and how that can sometimes take people's opinion of you away from what it is you're actually bringing to the table. And we talked about the different energy so so like I said that, that post that you did, where it's like, yeah, you're really standing in that power and that energy. What challenges have you had from that perspective of people looking at us from a different lens? Because of the the physical side of things?

Jessica Kate 3:00

Yeah, look, I think we're all guilty of judging a book by its cover at some stage. And I think that's why I've been so successful in this space in this arena is because there is such a polarity there. Where I surprise people, because I am I more and more masculine and more in my power and and that confidence and self worth which people are drawn to. I think for a lot of women, it can be intimidating at first, the appearance side of things. But when they realize how much even though I have that masculine energy, and I hold that strength, there's also a lot of empathy there a lot of understanding, and I still can flow between the balance of feminine and masculine.

Ian Hawkins 3:48

Yeah, awesome. And that ties in with what you were saying before around the energy and how you dealt with these different coping mechanisms to get through different aspects of your life. So what why was your younger years? Why were they so challenging?

Jessica Kate 4:04

Yeah, so I grew up in a home where domestic violence and drug abuse and I left home at the age of 17 to move into my friend's car garage. That was my head start in life, I say. So yeah, my bed was literally sitting next to the washing machine, that kitty litter tray wasn't far from that either. So I know that there's people out there who pile up far worse. And they've been homeless. In fact, I've interviewed, you know, TV celebrities that have been homeless before. And I think about how that part of my life was so important, like for my growth, and it's given me the power of perspective. And I think that's what allows me to be such a great coach, as well as I do have that power of perspective. Everyone always says, I don't know how you see things from your point of view all the time. There's always so much empathy and understanding and just being able to view things so differently to the common person because of what I've been through and what I've witnessed what I've experienced. I found it truly grounding in a lot of ways.

Ian Hawkins 5:05

Yeah. Well, so what? What led up to, like you said, you mentioned domestic violence and drug abuse. So so what, what actually before what led up to you leaving, but like what sort of things played out for you like was it was in a state of perpetual fear of like spending more time in other people's houses because you just didn't want to be there, like what sort of

Jessica Kate 5:33

strangely combination. So my parents were just very toxic together. And even when they separated, and I was solely in my mother's care, I was never home at that stage, because the marriage breakdown really made her fall apart in many ways. And she just wasn't able to be a mother, she wasn't able to be even a strength for herself at that time. In many ways, I feel like I raised my parents and I was the the one that took on that role and that responsibility of having to be the one to say that's not right. And you shouldn't be doing that. And those sorts of things, right. And then there was a very decent period there where I wasn't home, I did recite at one of my friends places for quite a long time to avoid to avoid being at home. And luckily, I had a dog and I took my dog with me everywhere. Everyone sees my dog, my current dog in my stories all the time, and she's my little best mate. But at the time growing up, I did have a dog that was a German Shepherd, cross cattle dog. And he was my guardian. I took him with me everywhere. And he was my protector. So yeah,

Ian Hawkins 6:43

I love that. German Shepherd cross with a Kelpie. Not too dissimilar. And yes, the protective elements that come out that deep bark where you like, oh, wow, there's some local art gallery. I love it, you did feel very safe. So you said you you ended up being the parent you felt at times for your parents? Why did you feel that pressure? Like how? I mean, looking at where you're at now, you've, you've obviously developed a whole lot of skills to be able to cope with that, as a child when you're quite young, like how does that play out? That must have been just exhausting.

Jessica Kate 7:23

It was hence the reason I left at 17 and had an estranged relationship with my mother for a long time. We're a lot closer now and a lot better now. But it was necessary for me at the time to distance myself from multiple family members, I was the only one in my family that didn't do drugs. And I, it was really hard to make that decision for myself to separate myself from that to want to evolve and go down a different path I needed to be the cycle breaker.

Ian Hawkins 7:54

Yeah, brilliant. And what a what a beautiful journey that is. And like, I honor you for taking on that because that's not easy, right? by actually making that decision. I imagine at times, it's like, well, there is no decision. It's something that I know I have to do. There's still moments of courage where you have to step into that space, right?

Jessica Kate 8:19

Yes. Well, people always ask me, what made you so different even to my siblings and go that different direction? And I said, well, because I had an example of what I didn't want to become. Right? It's as simple as that you make that choice, you either follow suit and go down the same path or you look at their life and go Well, I don't want that for myself. So it for me, it was as simple as that as black and white. It was go down the same path and live the same life or be the cycle breaker because you that's a perfect example of what you don't want to become.

Ian Hawkins 8:54

Yeah, it's amazing how often we see what we see. And we make a decision, we don't want to do that we end up just repeating the same patterns. And the alternate alternative is true as well as like what that's I don't want to do that. It's a lot of it. And that mindset that you talked about now, right? is shifting the language shifting how the lens through which you're seeing things? Are there still things from those days when when you were young and going through that where you did then see those patterns repeating because you'd seen what you'd seen, like, the first thing that comes to mind, I guess is if it's drug abuse, that sort of addictive tendency. That sounds like again, there's an assumption playing out there for your family. Did that show up in other ways for you?

Jessica Kate 9:38

Yeah, so moving forward. I ended up attracting in partners and having relationships with people that had an addictive personality, not necessarily drugs. My first serious boyfriend as a couple years older and he did smoke weed and things like that and was addicted had had an addictive personality in that sense. is, but even other things, you know, I've moved on to have relationships with people that still had that addictive personality. So subconsciously, that little girl inside of me that knew that that was her role and her responsibility or had been programmed anyway to believe that I still attracted those people in that needed me to hold that space for them or to guide them in some way. And, yeah, so it took this journey and this this journey of self discovery and self development. And, you know, further things that happened down the track for me to really delve into that and acknowledge what my subconscious was doing. And that's why I love this space so much, because we're not consciously aware of our programming and why we do the things that we do, and that the whole human behavior. I had many instances in my life that made me very curious to do this work and discover why these patterns were occurring. All these things were happening in my life. And also, why was I the black sheep? Why was I so different to the rest of my family?

Yeah, I love that. The first thing that came into mind when you said about attracting partners like that, did you find yourself or looking back now? Did you do? Did you step into a bit of that parenting space for these partners?

Yes, well, so I left a 10 year relationship slash marriage few years ago, and that occurred 12 months after my father committed suicide. So I went through this transition of just snowball of, sort of, well, I had to process the grief first, I gave myself 12 months for that. But I was unhappy in the marriage prior to that, and didn't want to unpack too much at once. And then I utilized that space while I was healing through my grief to grow and evolves. And unfortunately, not everyone in your close vicinity wants to do that with you. And it was very necessary because we had our own individual traumas from our past. And we brought them into the relationship and could see that we were destroying ourselves and each other. But because I left home at a young age, and I had taken on those responsibilities from a young age. Again, I didn't realize subconsciously, I was emasculating my husband in our marriage without even realizing I was doing it because I was a natural born leader. And he wasn't, you know, I developed that role of taking charge and getting things done. And I was the action taker and the decision maker, and not realizing that that can be emasculating to a man in a committed relationship, right. And at the same time, he didn't try and step up and take on that role. And naturally, if he was in that, I know that I would have stepped back into my feminine and allowed him to take over in that role, because I didn't that wasn't to, that's not the true core essence of who I am. As a woman. I didn't want to be in that role. But subconsciously, I didn't know any different.

Yeah, it's a challenge, isn't it? I know, many of the women I've spoken to in a similar sort of position. It's like, well, what, what step do you take? Do you? Do you step back into your feminine first to allow that space? Or do you get your highlight that need for, you know, what you need from a partner? So do you do any work in that sort of space around relationships? And if so, how do you help people with that, given the experience you've had yourself?

Yes. So I will just add that it wasn't like that, originally, in the beginning, I feel that as the relationship formed and took shape over the years, my my husband's issues, without being too personal and sharing his journey. Or his insecurities and his issues, and his past traumas, caused him to behave a certain way and do certain things in the relationship that made me step more into my masculine, if that makes sense. So not saying I went into it originally, fully in my masculine, because we wouldn't have even had the power of polarity to form a connection in the first place. It was that progressively got worse throughout the relationship, because I found myself having to take charge having to make decisions and having to step more into that role, and feeling really frustrated and resentful at some stages throughout that relationship. So I tried to create some changes towards the end. And again, I was the driver of trying to help both of us. But when someone doesn't want to grow, and they don't want to face themselves, and they're not ready to, that's when I had to make that decision to stay or to leave and basically save myself like stay there and drown with that person that doesn't want to do the work and face themselves or leave and yeah, so I made the decision to leave. When with regards to my clients, I've coached a lot of people through breakups. I find that's a catalyst for people whether it's an moreso a split after a few months or a few years, that's a catalyst for people to face themselves because they're on their own. And they lose that sense of belonging to something in someone. And so it creates a shift in their identity. And they feel lost and unsure of themselves and at some stages, unworthy, unlovable, and all those horrible painful things that I'm sure we've all experienced at some stage. And that's what caused them to reach out. That's what's caused them to want to do this work and learn how to love themselves for themselves. And also they don't want to repeat the same mistakes moving forward in future relationships.

Yeah, cool. Love that. You mentioned before, you've always been somewhat curious. So I really get fascinated in people's childhood journey and, and what were those things that they were really curious about back then like, so for me, like I was fascinated by the paranormal and the energy world, although didn't know it in that language back then. But anything that was unexplained and, and a little bit strange and unknown, like, yeah, we only use a small percentage of our brain, what's the rest of it for? Like, what else are we capable of? That used to fascinate me, right? So for you as this curious young child, what were the sort of things that you were dreaming about? Or pondering that you look back now on and think Yeah, well, that was some some really cool conversations with yourself.

Well, I had a very extraordinary upbringing, very rare, very extraordinary. So my parents were kind of stone the hippies that lived up in the mountains, and we had natural spring water, we had an outhouse, we didn't have electricity, and all those types of things. And we had, we had farm animals, but we didn't have a farm, so to speak, we had, you know, a small block that was of cleared land. And then the rest of it was cliff face and lantana and bush land and whatnot. But I literally had my own mystical rainforests kind of cubby house in my own backyard. Right. And, yeah, it was really cool. So there was lots of instances where, you know, put sticks in big ant holes and got bitten and went home screaming and crying, and just very inquisitive, when it came to animals. And, you know, the, the circle of life really, I have never forgotten when the the chickens and the goats and all of the animals would have babies. And I would sit on our little balcony and watch a little trail of the yellow chicks behind their mum across the yard. But there was a little black one that I called Midnight, and I watched an eagle one day come down and sweep midnight, and I could just hear him chirping over the mountains while this this eagle took off with it. And that traumatize me as a young child, right? I had to learn from a young age that this is what happens this was like real live David Attenborough in my yard. Learning about nature and the circle of life and how that works. And that you know, life's not all rainbows and butterflies. Yeah. Followed home from school by a pack of wild dogs once as well. My sister and I had to fill our pockets with pebbles from the from the road to throw at them and my sister got a big stick and was like yelling and hitting the stick on the road and trying to scare them away. And yeah, it's like what I mean by you know, the the adversity and the things that I've experienced in my life is really profound to the average person and when they see me today, and you know, judge a book by its cover, they have no i Dear, but I love it. I love shocking people. I love surprising people. I love sharing stories.

Brilliant. That sounds like straight out of a movie. Right? All of that what you just described there?

Yes, everyone keeps telling me to write a book and I'm like, there's so many money, but I wouldn't even know where to start.

Did that bring you as siblings? Did that bring you really close together? Living in that isolated environment in that sort of world?

Yes. So this is what I really struggled with is that, you know, growing up in nature and surrounded by these incredible animals and learning so much about nature and life, from such a young age, and having certainly hippie parents that lived. They both had horrible upbringings or experienced some severe trauma in both of their lives so it's almost like they were wound mates which I've you know, coached people Long as well and that connection, and it was unhealthy. And at times, there was a lot of laughter and playfulness. And my dad played guitar. And we'd sit there and off as a family spent a long time playing guitar, because you know, we didn't watch TV and things. But things got really ugly, you know, I've got a mixed memory of very horrible toxic situations, with the violence between the two of them, and physical violence and mum coming into a room with blood, noses and things like that. But then I also have those fond memories of us or being a family and, you know, having those happy times. But as a child, I think you're oblivious to the fact of people's traumas and how they come out and how they behave. And I didn't understand the dynamics of their relationship, or what was right or wrong in a marriage, or how a woman should be treated, or how the woman should treat her man and all the rest of it. So, you know, fights blew up with them quite easily with dad being away at work or day and mum not doing much at home because she was too bent. So, you know, it's just one of those things where they didn't know how to and that was so young. Gosh, young, you know, I grew up with really young parents, as well, which is why I felt that I had to take on that role as a parent at different stages, because I really felt that when they separated, they were learning how to be adults. Right? Yeah, we're just learning and growing like the rest of us.

Going back to when you had that experience with your mom coming in, like with a bloodied nose, like, did that make you angry? Did it make you scared? Or what? How do they? How did that experience impact you at that age?

Yeah. Look, again, as I said, mixed memories. And because I've done a lot of inner work, and I've healed a lot of the pain from my childhood now. It's not all the pain and suffering that I remember, I have a good memory of both the good and bad times. And I know that there was a balance of the two. That's why they stayed together for like, 17 years or something. But I also am consciously aware of their programming now why they behaved the way that they did. And so I've removed all that pain and suffering around it. Yes, it's awful. It should never have happened, and I shouldn't have had to witness that. But at the same time, I accept every experience I've ever had in my life and realize that shaped me into the woman I am today. And I'm very proud of who I am today. So I can't hate the experiences that shaped me if you know what I mean.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm still curious about what what that was like, though, from a from a sensory perspective. So that we, because the talking about then having to heal it, that's a big part of the journey, right of overcoming the grief is then. Okay, so this is what showed up. And now I know, I need to clear it, because it's showing up again, in my adult years. So what is there a sort of standout sort of feeling that comes to mind or, or reaction for you, whether that was from a physical or mental or emotional perspective, from that time of seeing your mum go through that?

Yeah, well, look, at the time, there was a lot of fear, we were very fearful of my dad when he had a temper. And, you know, my sister and I are in the firing line of that sometimes as well. But I guess the part where I don't have that, that anger or resentment or even the pain and suffering anymore, is that when my parents split, and I was left in the care of my mother, I saw, I guess the traits or the behavior of why my dad acted out that way, not saying that, I am justifying why he did it, it just I gained an understanding. And so realizing and identifying that they both had their issues, I was able to equally be upset or disappointed and have equal love and care for both of them. And my father came through and redeemed himself years later, he actually shared a very close bond and had a great relationship before he passed. And that was, yeah, one of the greatest tragedies of my life losing him. But I also know and tell many people that my father's choice to leave this earth Well, the physical side of this I still see that as his greatest, his final lesson, but his greatest lesson to me in life. I, again cannot hate the experiences that have shaped me and the growth that I have gained from that as dramatic as it was. It has made me who I am today. And yeah, I'm just I'm grateful for for all of it.

Now I want to dig a bit deeper there if that's okay, because I know that that's not something that you come to quickly, right? You've got to do a lot of peeling back. And so you talked that big three and a half years ago. For me, it took much longer to get to that point to realize that, like, yes, it'd be awesome to have my dad back here. There was a tremendous gift for me going through that grief in terms of what has changed for my life. How did you get from that place of the of the pain and everything that goes without the depths of that grief to then coming out the other side? Was there a moment because I think because I look at it like this. The first few weeks afterwards, there's a lot of support, and everyone's there. And that slowly starts to drift away over time. And that's when you get that time where you're like, well, now what do I do? Everyone's got on with their life. And then there's a sort of numbness that can continue from from that point, whether it's two weeks or six months, to then having that moment of a spark, that that has you thinking, Alright, something's got to change. So what was that spark for you? Like, we could just talk about that, that grieving journey and then coming out the other side of like, I've actually got to do something different now.

Yeah, so the process for me personally, and this is very different for for everyone. Because, as you were saying, it depends what support you have. And I've heard that so many times that people get surrounded by loved ones around the time of the funeral. But eventually everyone goes back to their life. And you've got to try and find some level of normalcy again in your life, which is really confronting and very hard to do. But for me, I didn't have a lot of support, I was the support for my entire family, I had to pay for them to attend the funeral and fly into state and do you know, accommodation and everything. I had family attacking me over the weekend, because I was the executor of the will, I had to deal with lawyers and you know, real estate agents to sell his property, I didn't really have a chance to grieve in that. My husband had his own addictions and issues that he was dealing with that he wasn't able to hold space for me and support me either. In fact, I was carrying a lot of weight, emotional weight of him and well, I have family. Yes, yeah. So I guess what was so damaging for me at the time, was I went straight into survival mode and warrior mode. Right, right into fine mode, I was not aware of, well, subconsciously, I went into that very easily, because that was all I knew what to do. It's what I did when I was a little girl and mom was being hurt. It's what I did when I had to leave home at 17. You know, it's, it's just what I knew how to deal how to cope, any breakups or went through anything like that only knew how to go into warrior mode, how to step into that fight mode, and, you know, just create a victorious comeback. Right? So, I did go into that really, as I said, the that stage of organizing everyone else and dealing with all my responsibilities. But this is why 12 months later, I left my marriage because everything that I learned in that 12 months through my stages of grief. So past the warrior mode, I went into that soften sad stage of spending a lot of time in nature reminiscing on my time with my father. He actually has a couple of books out he was a stonemason. And one of the books that he wrote has short stories in it. And the other one is teaching people how to lay stone. And with the the book full of short stories, I was able to almost hear His voice and visualize him telling the story and still had so many elements of him around. In fact, I believe he was still around me a lot. I don't he doesn't really visit me in my dreams. I don't have conversations with him anymore. But there were stages where I would say something and not hear His voice answer me almost. Right. I really, really believe that he was there holding space for me a lot in those early stages. So I even even remember having a very vivid dream on the morning of his birthday. It was 5am the usual time that he would wake up and I never wake up at 5am and I had this dream that he pulled up in my driveway on his Harley and I ran out there to hug him and I could smell him Feel him everything that was so real. And I believe it wasn't long after that, that he crossed over and moved on because those vivid images, dreams, all of that is they stopped, they stopped. And there's been few and far visits in between, but I still have the little things that remind me of him or that, you know, comes up for me.

I got tingles all through that. And it makes total sense, right? Like, like you said, he's holding space for you. He's been there for you until you're ready to do it yourself. Yes. And be really interesting to know if at times now whether you've intentionally asked for him to come back what what you would get? To me? People can believe whatever they believe in, in the afterlife. Why would you know what to believe that there's a connection, like, we are all made of energy, energy doesn't disappear. Your your soul doesn't disappear? Why wouldn't they be coming back to connect with you in some way? Like, what a beautiful way of looking at your connection to someone who's no longer here in the physical as you described?

Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. And only him. And I will understand that connection and that bond. Yeah, I was definitely a daddy's girl. And I was so much more like Him, then my mum in many ways. But as I said, I've developed a great relationship with my mum, now we talk often on the phone. Try and make the effort to visit her, but it's hard seeing her and the way that she is now. You know, the hard life and the choices she's made has deteriorated her physically and emotionally. So that it's difficult to witness.

Yeah. Do you wonder or do you know, like, what your parents would have experienced? That shaped them to one choose that sort of lifestyle? And to sort of how it played out?

Yeah, look, there's so much more I would never know about their upbringing and what they experienced, but from what I do know, and the knowledge that I've gained, being a coach and working and studying in self development, I, as I said, I have so much more understanding about their programming now and why they behaved the way that they did and the choices they made. And so rather than feeling frustrated, or cheated out of having good parents in the in the childhood that I had, I have replaced that with compassion and understanding now, and that has helped heal me more than than them, you know, like, I needed to do that for myself. That's been really powerful for me in this whole journey.

Yeah. So you went through that? That whole process of what you said your dad was with you and you came on the other side? Like, was that just a matter of time? Or were there certain things playing out that were helping you come out the other side and start looking at the world differently? Did you start receiving that support that you hadn't received before? Like, what? What came into your world that wasn't there previously,

there was lots of things I was already doing in the past that I felt I had let slip. So I used to read a lot. I used to journal a lot. I was running a successful business six days a week, 12 hour days, I was really kind of ruining myself, I think a lot of issues in my marriage and my personal issues from past traumas I had not faced or dealt with myself, I buried that in the success of my business, and I created an identity again, around that survival mode of, well, if I'm successful, and I'm achieving these milestones, then that gives me purpose. And, you know, it's a sense of why I'm waking up every day. And I always had that, that can do attitude, right? Because I develop that from a young age in that survival mode. So I really thrived in business. And again, this is why you know, I feel I'm a great coach because I help people in not only matters of the heart, in their personal life, but in in business as well. And it's all mindset, right? It's all mindset. And so, with that, I I took time off to grieve. I closed my business I had time off it was just realizing that nothing else mattered. It didn't matter how much money I had, how many luxury items I had the beautiful Range Rover parked in my garage, even even my marriage, the house everything you know, I used to think about all the shit I'd waste my time doing in the past, but when my father passed it was this huge wake up call. It was this catalyst moment for me to really have a look at what is the purpose in meaning of not just my life, but life in general, what are we all doing here? And, you know, I feel a lot of us are just conditioned and programmed to be like robots and society jams down our throat, this idea of get married, have the business, have a family, the picket, white fence, you know, my life looked perfect from the outside in, but I was dying on the inside. And that's what I wasn't afraid to come out and start telling people because I wanted to shake people up and say, Wake up, right? This is whole other life out there that we're not experiencing. And we're desensitized.

Yeah, and

I feel that's why I say, you know, it was the greatest. It was my dad's final lesson, but his greatest lesson to me because it just gave me a deeper sense of perspective on life, in general, and it just woke me up. It woke me up my eyes, we didn't want people to wait till they experienced such great pain and suffering from grief or, or anything else that they may experience in their life, to have that wake up call. But sadly, that's what it takes for a lot of people.

100% And one of the great challenges is exactly that is like most people will only be jolted to life by having that tragedy. To me, it's starting people to think about exactly what you said there about that, that curiosity and, and what's going on in their life. It's also realizing that because I look back at this for me, I had many jobs before my dad passed away, which didn't have the impact and how many people have already had those moments and didn't act on them. Yes. And that's the sort of vibe that if you've had this experience as well, is that part of the unraveling process is realizing how many of these moments where I just for some of them, I pushed the emotion down intentionally for others, my subconscious just blocked it completely, like such numbness that there was just no reaction, and then peeling it back later and just realizing, oh, man like that, that's still playing out today. So so for you like looking back on that, like, how was that unraveling process happen for you? And have you realized the same thing that there were those moments previously that perhaps if you were the person, you were now you would have actually paid more attention?

Yes, I went through that stage of revisiting all those old practices and rituals that I used to do, I really had to nurture myself and make those decisions. And it was 12 months later, on the anniversary of my father's passing, I bought a ticket to a Tony Robbins event. And it actually commenced on the date of his passing. And I did that purely because I wanted to mark that occasion with something remarkable. Rather than sitting at home crying, and being in that state of suffering. I wanted to go and do this for myself. And I had purchased a ticket for my husband to come with me and hoped that this would be the catalyst for us to get back on track and to help us individually but together as well. And sadly, he didn't want to go so I went alone. And then then I came home. And that's when I I packed up and left.

Was there, is there a chance that you actually got picked out of the crowd at some point?

You may not know. I do recall certain people, you know, standing up and sharing their stories and it is it was just how do I explain it in for 12 months in that fog of grief and pain and suffering and growing and learning and, and my awakening, I guess you could call the whole experience and awakening in that 12 months. I felt more alone than I'd ever been in my life. Because nobody has had to deal with the grief a lot of my own but because whilst I'm awakening, no one else around me is. Yeah, like I said, it's like you feel like you're the only one that sees the world through the set of eyes with that perspective. And so when I went to the Tony Robbins event, and he gets that crowd going and he wakes people up and shakes them up, and they have their awakening at that moment and many breakthroughs. I looked around that stadium of two and a half 1000 people and was like, I'm not alone.

Yeah, love that.

There are people out there just like me, that have this fire inside them and they want so much more for themselves in their life. They just don't know exactly how to get it. And that's what made me so determined to create the movement in honor of my dad, which was never meant to allude to me becoming a coach, but it just happened to me As he as he have heard that story from quite a few people, I'm sure that yeah, it's just it's incredible how it's all evolved, and how every part of it the pain, the suffering, the heartache, the joy, the tears, the the breakthroughs, the the awakening, it's also the great, great purpose.

Yeah, absolutely. And all of those elements linked to our own personal purpose as well. It's interesting what you said there, because I would say that most people who have been through that process would say the same thing. Suddenly, they're seeing things that they haven't seen before. And they just want to tell everyone, and then usually people who aren't ready to hear it. And then I was much like, what's going on at the moment with people screaming, they're this, that and the other people? And it's like, if they're not ready, like, yes, anything. So So actually, then realizing that you just have to go on your own journey and those that will come and be attracted into that world, right?

Yeah. And that aloneness turned into, I guess, the the loneliness, I should say, turned into just aloneness. And I wasn't, I was alone, but I wasn't lonely. Because I had developed this so much to become in alignment with this. Everything made sense. And I had that clarity and understanding. I had healed years of resentment, anger, hurt and suffering. And yeah, it was just becoming the person I was really proud to be, but also not afraid to be the odd one out in the crowd that sees things differently and shares that to those who want to listen.

Yeah, brilliant. Somebody said before, really struck me because it's something I know of purpose. And that's fine. People talk about well, having purpose and purpose comes in all different forms. Like, you know, like, that doesn't have to be the great depth of it. But when people are going through that awakening, and they're, and they're wanting to change, and they've had that spark, and they're like, Okay, well, I want something that actually fulfills me what you talked about, then all of those things are very intricately and very much intertwined with our purpose. And that's the, the actual catalyst for change moment, the awakening moment, everything that we've overcome. And for me, it's like, it's that thing that we never want anyone else to experience what we went through. That's all find our purpose. So for you, what is that thing? What is that thing that you experienced, that you now love to help other people to not have to experience that you'd love to share messages around that you love to see other people come out the other side of that, so that they don't have to experience that same page?

Yeah. Well, I guess what the difference with me, and a lot of people find this a little odd, is I actually celebrate when people come to me, and they're deep in that pain. And they're sharing the story with me. I'm smiling and nodding, going, Yes, because I relate. And I understand. But the reason I'm smiling, and the reason I'm nodding at them is because I know what's on the other side of that, and they don't know yet. And that excites the shit out of me. Because the victory and the growth and the change of heart and the change of mind, and the person that you become, it's freaking priceless. And only the pain can teach you that.

Absolutely. So I'm going to push a little bit harder on that one. So I get I'll ask the question, what is it that you've overcome, that you don't want anyone else to experience?

What have I overcome that? I don't want anyone else to experience. Oh, look, grief is the hardest, ugliest, most painful thing I think we'll ever go through his loss. And this is why, again, when people go through breakups, and they reach out to me, it's like they're grieving a death, because in a way they are the grieving the death of their old story and their old identity, and the life they thought they were going to have. And so I believe grief, whether you lose a loved one like I did, or whether you've lost a relationship or a partner or even your old self, there is great pain and suffering that comes with that. And it is awful. And at times, it's made me feel like I didn't even want to be here on this earth. And I'm sure many other people have felt that way too.

Yep, for sure. Yeah. And the thing that struck me through that is you had to do that alone. You had to go through your grief. Not being supported, in fact, even worse than that having to be the support for so many different people. And to me that's real really shines for you is that you take so much joy in supporting people through that time, because you know what it's like to not have that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I've had to be very careful. Because, you know, in the beginning, much like my old identity, I, when I first decided to become a coach, it was like, I can help everyone in anyone, and I'll just take on anyone that comes to me, right, and I want to save the world. And I'm very particular now that, you know, when I screened my clients, and I qualified them, it's, I don't work with quitters. Like it's going to get hard and don't think I can wave a wand and your life's gonna change, you have to be willing to do the work. And they also need to realize they're the ones doing the work. I'm here to guide them. Give them every piece of guidance and support and experience that I've gone through in my life and all my expertise. But they're the ones doing the work. And if they think that this is going to be a walk in the park, or they think that I'm going to rescue them and save them in some way, and they don't have to try and rescue themselves, then we're wasting each other's time.

Love that. Yeah, because we don't want to replace the other rescuers in their life by stepping into that space ourselves. Right?

Yes. And that role anymore, either in my life.

Yeah. Nice. Yeah. You mentioned success and running your own business. And so firstly, I just I'd love to hear what their business was. And and secondly, how do you view success now in a much different space where you're helping others?

Well, I recently shared a post on my page called story of a hustler. A lot of people are really interested to hear the background and how I got to where I am the way I'm able to help people in business. And why I became a success mindset coach out of all the types of coaches you could be. And so I believe success looks different for everyone. And we will have a different versions of that. And that's what I love helping people discover as well. So that's why I feel even success mindset coach, people believe it's around business. But as I said earlier, it's matters of the heart that affect our performance in everyday life, which happens to be a lot to do with business. So I do tend to help those that. The the workaholics because I used to be that, right, you attract him we used to be so so the story of a hustler, as I said, left him at quite a young age and I tried different fields. But I fell into administration and reception work as a junior and I worked my way up the food chain and became a paralegal in law firms. That's what I was doing and be the conveyancing and things like that. And I got sick of being chained to a desk and a computer and being governed with, you know, this nine to five thing and just really was really dragging my feet and just didn't feel fulfilled. And there's a lot of people out there, these workaholics that aren't fulfilled, even if they're getting results at work, they're still not fulfilled, because there's something inside of them that there's just not in alignment, and they don't even know who they are, they fell into this job or this role through, you know, parents and influences around them and things like that. And people don't take the time to discover who they are what they want for themselves. And so here I was in this job, unfulfilled and wanting more for myself. So I studied Beauty Therapy and started servicing my clients from home on the side after hours, and I recruited a lot of clients from the office job which did one word spread from there. So it's pretty easy. And I enjoyed the interaction with other women but the biggest thing was I loved making them feel beautiful and feel good about themselves. Right? It was a confidence thing. And I also had another side hustle of doing promotional work. I literally would do a nine to five job and then drive from the Gold Coast and our to Brisbane on a weeknight on Thursday nights. And I would dress as a Vegas show girl to host poker games. Yeah. Yep. And serve drinks and things and, and yeah, it was like 250 or something for the night plus my tips to dress up and do that. And so I recruited a few girls to help out with that and then started hosting private parties in penthouses and things and my girls in tight dresses would like cigars and pour drinks for men and expensive suits and Rolex and things like that. And I found dealing with powerful men taught me to be tough and business. I really valued that experience and what I went through and did that for about a year but then I found the staff unreliable and was a lot you know, juggling that and my other side hustle plus my full time job, and I never lost. I never lost sight that my full time job was the backbone of it all. And I never had the desire to leave my job to go and do those things they were side hustles you know, that was the intention. However, being miserable in the in the office space and, you know, being governed by this nine to five situation and being taught, I can only have certain amount of time off a year and wanting to travel the world and things. I decided to grow the original side hustle of the beauty therapy and went into, have a sell on and multiple staff and grew that to a six figure business very quickly. Within the space of a year, I hired my first employee and went from there, so and it just grew every year that had to move to a bigger place and expand and I attracted influencers and celebrities, TV celebrities and things like that as clients. And yeah, it was, again, another great journey. But that was the business that I closed when my father passed. And then on the other side of that was also then I scaled it back, I started working by myself again how I originally started. And that's when I created them the movement and then fell into coaching.

Yeah, right. So through all of that, like you can see your work work ethic shining through. I mean, yes, I guess there must be an element of like, if you're living on the land, that there's just a natural work ethic, there's a lot to be done, I imagine. Yeah. How do you then step from that space? Where you're like working long hours, and you're, you know, really driven by? I don't know what what you were driven by. But it's like, you know, you wanted to create more like, your life and live more. How do you then you said, you fell into coaching? But how do you go from that space? Like, did you hit a burnout where you just couldn't give any more? And so you're like, Okay, things have to change? Or was that just going through that grief? Was Was that the catalyst that said, I can't go back to that old life?

Well, as I said, I was unhappy in my marriage at the time. And so my business masked all of my personal issues, I guess. And then when my father passed, I had that awakening of what am I doing with my life, I'm not going to keep spending it doing things or being around people that don't like me up and make me happy or a positive influence in my life. And so I cleared out old friends left my marriage, closed that business, all kinds of things like just a complete transition of, I'm creating a whole new life here. And so with that, as I said, when I created the movement, my my intention was never to be a coach. I've every second person I met through Tony Robbins, and all these other development, things I was in every second person was a coach, and I had no desire to be one. In fact, I wanted the opposite, because I thought, I'm just going to deal with people that are like my family members my whole life. And I don't want to do that. Yeah, people that don't really want the help or don't want the answers to their problems. They love being in that victim mindset. Because it serves them in many ways. And I'm sure you know, all of that. So, yeah, that was the least thing that I wanted to do. But when I created the movement, my intention was just to be the creative director, I knew the journey I wanted to take my audience on. And I knew what it was that they needed, in terms of like, bringing on coaches, speakers, authors, all of that I wanted to hire them and put them on stage. And I had celebrity guests come in and do live performances from the voice and Australia's Got Talent in those types of things. And it was almost like a Tony Robbins event on a different scale with multiple guests, not just one main person. Cool. Yeah. And it was really, really cool. And I loved it personally, and saw the breakthroughs in the transition with with the audience and the messages I got from people and how many hearts We touched. And so from there, I ended up on radio stations, several newspapers, getting lots of podcasts, interviews and things and the word was spreading. And so we're in the middle of a national tour when the virus broke out. And I had lots of people reaching out to me. And as I had planned to be the girl behind the scenes, just, you know, creating this, these events for the four people in the world that needed it. It was like moths to a flame. Everyone was like well, Who's the girl that created it and why did she create it? What's her story?

So you're thrust into the spotlight all of a sudden? Yeah,

and it's so funny now when I look back on it, because I have footage of when the emcee got me on stage at the very first event just to say, we want to say thank you to the girl that put this event on for us today. And I looked at the ground, I couldn't even look at the audience, I was absolutely packing it. And she said, Do you want to tell everyone why you created this event, and I just talked down to the microphone, I couldn't even look at the audience, I was so shy. But I really wanted to do a certain exercise with the audience that I said, I wanted to come on stage for. So after I broke that situation of like, you know, being on stage for the first time, it was almost like you couldn't get me off. So, so I got up there, and I facilitated this exercise, and then just seeing how it was all about the people, you know, that's what allowed me to get up there. So I was like, this was this is even about me, they're not, they're not really looking at you, you're here to facilitate this experience that you want them to have. And that helped me get over my fear immediately. And so the exercise is something that Tony Robbins does is I will get them to go and find someone in the audience that they don't know and do the eye gazing experience where they Yeah, and so I spoken to write it over the top of that and got them to have this experience where people were crying and hugging each other. And it was just, you know, and I was talking about how people feel unseen, and heard and loved. And notice all of these things. And so we are being selfless in this and gifting this time to this other person a couple of minutes of your time. And there needs to be no physical contact or anything else, but purely looking into this person's eyes and into their soul just to let them know that hey, you matter. And I see you right now, while they're freaking brought the house down. And I loved it. And I just wanted to do more. So moving forward, I had planned to emcee my own events and facilitate a couple exercises. But as I said, more and more people reached out through the pandemic, and that's when they were asking, you know, can you coach me in these sorts of things like that's every coach's dream, like I didn't even have to do anything. Yeah. And so yeah, my clients, I was signing up a wall from America. I didn't really, I didn't really have many clients in Australia, they're all American, male and female, a lot of them around the 5060 year old bracket, some in their 40s. And going through all sorts of things, not productive at work, procrastinating don't feel successful, no self worth, and happy marriage, breakups, you name it. And it just, I just fell into it.

Amazing. Clearly, you have become very comfortable on a stage and to an audience and, and really get a sense that that's a place that you will be back in, at some point, like regularly feels like your space, right is that front and center in front of the stage tuning into their energy and having that impact. I really love that

will since then, during the pandemic, as the restriction started to lift, I then created workshops. So I have facilitated workshops and had guest speakers and I created a division within the movement called inspiring women code. Because I know that women love to flock and get together. And I'd love to network and things, it's a little bit harder to get men together in that space. But I found it very easy with the women. So hence the reason I created a women only division. And I just started using or utilizing, I should say, inspiring women with stories of where they were to where they are now victim to Victor story. And just sharing their success story of, you know, very similar to mine, I guess. So where were they? Where are they now? How did they get there? What steps did they take anything to just empower and inspire the audience. And that's been my mission all along the way I call it inspiring lines movement is just want to inspire people to think outside the norm, and realize that there's so much more to this life and to them than they are awakened to.

Brilliant. Absolutely. So much more. Yes. How would you define for you going forward? what success looks like?

Yeah, interesting question, because I've really thought about where I see myself in the future. And a few times I tried to move, but the pandemic restricted that I really want to spread my wings and get back over to America. I've been over there five times, but before the pandemic and during the national tour, I did get back to the States. And one of the speakers that I was supposed to tour with who I have actually been backstage with him and things and collaborated with him a little bit. He has an orphanage in Haiti south of Miami. And we had planned to go to the orphanage together and I said To him, I want to strip myself of the makeup, the fake tan, everything, I just want to be at one and raw with myself and these children. And it's another element and level of my journey and self growth of, you know, first world problems versus what they're going through there. And I wanted to document my time there and show that footage at my events with inspiring minds to again, open people's minds and get them to feel inspired to think about the perspective of how other people are actually living compared to what they feel is the worst thing that's ever happened to them. Again, that parent perspective, sometimes you need live evidence to really make up to that. So that was something that I'd planned to do. And since I had so many clients in America, I'd plan to just travel around and surprise my clients and visit them in person. And yeah, just be a little bit of a drifter for a while, but the pandemic had other plans for me. So hence the reason I'm still here at home,

stepping out in front of a crowd in another way, mostly online.

I've just trusted the process and just learned that this is how it's meant to be for now. There will be more workshops, I do hope to get these big live productions back on stage again, when these restrictions start to lift more and people are less scared to be in a big crowd and I will bring forward some incredible people I've met on this journey that I know will be able to, to just really wow the audience and share so much value.

Yeah, so good. Yes. And I can see, when you talked about that side of the journey of of being able to be on that platform and be able to shine a light on other people is like that, that's when you really lit up right? Like, I can see the passion for that I can see how there'll be so many more amazing parts of your story to be told through that vehicle. Is there a particular story that maybe you have told and you know, that has a big impact, or one that maybe you haven't told that you know, will have an impact that you've got sort of in the pipeline for the future?

So as a story, a story of what I have experienced that will impact my future you mean or

one that you can share with the world that will have an impact for them?

Oh, because I was going to wear what I thought you originally going to ask is like an experience I've had with like someone in the audience or something like a life A life that we've touched? And there's there's been quite a few there's a few shares

share that as well. Yeah, yeah, as a few standouts. So

the very first event, there was a gentleman that found me on Facebook, and it was from the Sunshine Coast. And he drove two hours from the Sunshine Coast at 6am in the morning and brought his parents with him to uh, to attend my event. And I got to meet him in person because he had messaged me, and I got to meet him in person and meet his parents. And the background story was that he lost his wife and daughter in a car accident. Wow. And what's so bizarre about it is he I can't remember exactly if he drempt It happened or he had a visual image of it happening before it happened. He was in another country. It was in another country, or another state or something for work. And it's he knew it black when they came to knock on his door and everything he knew, like it was really new. Yeah. And anyway, I'm coming to my event completely opened him up. And he had these great connections on the Sunshine Coast in newspaper and radio and things, which is how the movement got out. So I knew the universe delivered him to me for a reason and vice versa. He said that I taught him to love again and be not be afraid to open his heart and be willing to move on in his life and just incredible. So I wouldn't have decided to do an event on the Sunshine Coast if it wasn't for him. And that was the second that was the second event that we're in that we had done for the national tour. So yeah, and then there was another woman that came to the very first event as well who told me she'd been sleeping in her car. And she read about the event in the paper. And she said I needed this more than you know, right? That was just like, oh, okay, now one story though. Try not to choke up over but um, there was this at the very first event there was this gentleman crouched down at the back of the room against the petitions in the room or in the convention center. And he was in a suit but kind of scruffy looking and He was crouched down at the back of the room by himself and my crew members were not far from him just supervising if any assistance was required and whatnot, and they were doing their thing. And I noticed him there and I thought, why is he at the back of the room and not involved? So I went up to him, and I crouched down next to him. And I said, Are you enjoying the event so far? I didn't care to tell him who I was. It was my event. Nothing. I just wanted to connect to this human being right. And he, he said, Yeah, I'm just taking it all in. And I said, Would you like to come and sit with me in the audience? And he said, No, I'm okay here for now. And he said, besides,

I know who you are, I saw you. Like, I know, you're not going to stay in the

audience with me, but the into the audience sit with him for a bit at least. And then I was going to go back to stage. And I said, Oh, did you and I said, well, thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate you being here. And he said, I have something for you. But I know you're busy. So I'll catch you after. And I said yes. On the intermission, let's chat, please. There was something about this man. I didn't know what it was. I just knew I was meant to meet him. I don't know what he had for me. Yeah. So anyway, the intermission occurs, and I go looking for him. And I'm looking outside and everything and he's nowhere to be found. And so they called everyone back in, said, Alright, guys, we're coming back in everyone back to your seats, please. So on my way back in, I got stopped by someone else was having a conversation to them. And everyone's getting back in their seats and whatnot. And there's lots of commotion going on, and hugging lots of people and greeting them. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. And then everyone's just back in their seats, lights are coming on, we're back in action. And I turn around and he appears again, crouched down at the back of the room. He's in a different section. Now. He's at one underneath one of the big pillars in the building. And I go up to him, and I said I was looking for you. So he stands up, and he pushes me outside. And I'm like, Okay, I'm actually on stage and like 15 minutes or so, I go outside with him. And I'm thinking we're outside by ourselves. Now. I hope whatever he's got in his pocket for me is legit. So he says, I got something for you. And he's reaching in his pocket. And strangely, he pulls out this letter that's extremely old, and it's from one of the world wars or something, and he wanted me to have it. He said, please read that later. And I was so shocked. I didn't know what to say. I was like, okay, and then the other thing that he had for me, he asked me to put my handout and also hold God. That's what he puts in my hand. It's just amazing. He puts in my hand, this wad of cotton, three different colored cotton's wound around piece of cardboard. And he puts it in my hand. I'm looking at it thinking what on earth? And he said, you keep this and you keep mending those broken hearts. What am I God? I had him he left. He didn't come back. I said he coming back inside. He said, No. You know, my message here is done. You know, whatever. And he left. I board my frigging eyes out. I had to walk away. And my crew were coming out and going, Jess, you're on in like 10 minutes. I'm like,

I can't do this.

It was just like, wow. So I had to wipe those tears and get my butt on stage. And then that was when I facilitated that exercise at the eye gazing. And I'm in it just can you see how even for me in that. And that event, how that's opening up my heart and mind on another level, but can only imagine what that's doing for my audience and just unbelievable. The second event on the Sunshine Coast. There was one of the speakers. His brother committed suicide. So that's why I booked him as a speaker. There was a lot of a lot that we had related over but he he's he decided to invite a friend of his who sort of mixed with the wrong crowd and was a bit of a drinker and that sort of thing. And he encouraged him to come along. He said come and hear me speak and come to this event. And I said just bring him for free. It's fine. So He brought him in with his kids and his wife, actually the whole tribe came. And I was more than happy to welcome them in, because I had heard through this speaker that that is what they needed, right? It's just what they needed. And that was my gift to them. And I had booked celebrity guests from Australia's Got Talent, not sure if you've heard of him, but it's named Tommy Franklin. And everyone knew him as salty rain he was on. Yeah, Australia's Got Talent. And he was this guy with this crazy long beard and wild hair. And he wore like electric colored, multicolored outfits, and he was a dancing man, he would send traffic lights and dance and make people smile and feel happy. And he just found a way to express himself freely that actually lit up a lot of people. And so he got on stage. And he had this grown man that would never sing or dance unless it was intoxicated at the pub on his feet, dancing around and feeling so amazing that he could not stop smiling and hugging strangers. And it works something in this guy that he had not felt before. And it was truly amazing that he sent a message to the guest speaker that brought him and then he screenshotted and sent it to me and said, Look what you did to this man. He said he's never never done anything like that in his life. And he just loved it. He just loved it.

Oh, wow. These events, you're creating a platform and a container for for deep healing. Yeah, wow. Yes. Inspiring, as the name suggests, like it says on the label.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So that was sharing events of you know, things, people's stories or what had happened at the events. But well, any experiences of my own that you asked I?

Well, they were experiences of your own right, what particularly particularly with the man, like there's part of me that goes, Did anyone else see this man? There's like, just this third, like divinely aligned person that comes into your world. And it's like, like, you must have rethought of that whole situation again, and again, like, what was that? But like, wow, like, the healing that he gave you? And the the the impact on you that? That's that's a story you should definitely be telling him or?

Yeah, yes. Well, I did get on Facebook and do a live and shared that story. And I said, I don't know who he is. I don't have his name or anything. He was just this mysterious man that came. And it was so bizarre, because as I said, many features of him reminded me of my dad in a way that his energy and his scrappiness, but then he was in a suit. And, and then he had this letter from the war. And it was bizarre. Here's the most bizarre but extraordinary experience that I've had so far.

Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned your dad, because that was my first thought as well. It was like, there is some sort of connection there. And some things that come into our life. We don't have to understand we don't have to make complete sense of, but they're magic and they give us something that we could never have imagined. And and I thank you for for sharing that. That's really beautiful. Yeah, welcome. Amazing. I, that eye gazing process, like anyone who's done it, they know the magic of it. But for anyone who hasn't taking that time to connect with someone and just connect through the eyes, like you said, connect to their soul. Or something about that, that will change you forever. And it's well worth well worth trying. If it's something you've thought about. Yeah, really? Yeah, you can't explain it until you've doubled, I guess. So. Um, I love the fact that you bring that to the to your events.

I've done it multiple times myself, before I facilitated that exercise. I knew how powerful it was. And strangely, the other times where I was at someone else's event, and I had to do it, I had cried, I saw this person. Just I saw them. It's just like, run into their soul. And I saw them and I was crying for them. For me for this moment for humanity. It was just really intense. But then at my own event, there was a girl that looked to be in her early 20s. And she didn't have a partner. So I called her up on the side of the stage, and I did the eye gazing with her. And I didn't I didn't cry. I just couldn't stop smiling whilst I look in her eyes, and I let her have that moment and feel what came up for her. And there was something so different about when I'm facilitating and sharing that and teaching that and holding that space for someone else. But I surrendered and allowed myself to feel differently when I was at someone else's event? Yeah, I don't know. Or maybe she just didn't have something in her that made me feel like I needed to shed tears. I just couldn't stop smiling for her. But either way, it was really incredible.

Yeah, could be a whole raft of things like could have been that you've, you did the healing you needed to do in that space. And, and so it did become a different exchange of energy. I've had the similar experience, it's a different experience, depending on on who it is. And, and you mentioned holding space. It's funny, I asked this question last week, to, to ally may around like an explanation of holding space. And in that eye gazing process, it's a whole deeper level. So I'd love to hear how you explain like how you see that process of holding space? Because that is truly it's a it's an art and it's something that can be learned and and it's a really powerful skill and tool to have no matter what part of life you joining through.

Yeah, well, look, I I've learned over my time as a coach and even, you know, working in the salon and holding space for my clients, for them to share and whatnot, you don't have to have the answers. They're not telling you because they want a solution or the answers all the time. Sometimes it's just a matter of, as I said, hold that space and listen, and let them know that they're seen and heard and valued as a human being. Because that's not something that's gifted to us every single day.

Yeah, brilliant, the listening and I think you've mentioned that a couple of times. Now you you give people the space to be heard. And that is that's life changing. I my mother in law was a hairdresser I reckon, listening to her talk hairdressers were the original life coaches, right?

Yes. Yes, that's what I mean. It was like when I stepped into the coaching realm, I thought I've been doing this for years.

Yeah, absolutely. So that was awesome. Jessica, thank you for sharing so openly through the difficult times. And but also those those beautiful stories of helping people to change. I appreciate it. I appreciate you for for having this chat with me.

Thank you for having me. It's, it's been great to share that value and spread that that message of positivity for anyone out there. I know that will say this or hear it or whatever. I know it's gonna land for the right person that always does.

Yeah. Awesome. Well said. Thanks so much, Dan. You're welcome. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com. You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform