Finding Drive & Purpose From Your Grief with Catch Blackburn

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this word, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

If you've ever been through losing a child or having a miscarriage or stillbirth, and just warning you in advance at this interview this week is we are going deep into this with my guest today catch Blackburn. And he opens up about the whole experience of just how challenging that was. So if it's not something you're ready for, I'm just letting you know that I'm letting you know that in advance but if it if it is and and you've haven't been through it and you're still grappling with it, this will help massively him sharing his story. And you'll get so much from that now. Even if it's not you haven't experienced that be have experienced any sort of loss through through death or relationship breakdown. There's so much in this episode for you. It's emotional. But it's also the sort of thing that is so powerful in helping you to heal whatever you've been through yourself. So enjoy this. At the tissues ready. And yeah. See you next for the wall. You'll hear in a second when we get into the interview. Hey, everyone. Welcome this week's guest catch Blackburn catch. How am I man?

Unknown Speaker 2:18

Yeah, doing phenomenal. You don't?

Ian Hawkins 2:20

Very good, thank you. I can't remember what the connection was. But oh, no, I think I was reaching out for podcast guests. And you're like, yeah, man, I've got a story for you. And, you know, a lot of people say they got a story. But when you started telling me your story and the impact, it was like, wow. So like I said to you, before we come on, like we start with the big stuff. So tell us a bit about how that story unfolded for you and the impact that had in your life?

Unknown Speaker 2:46

Yeah, for sure. So, you know, like, I guess I'll give you my background, like, I'm 41 now. You know, I've got three boys. So Lucas is nine this year. Hendricks is eight and cruisey seven. And, you know, sort of rewind sort of nine years ago, 2014. You know, I was very busy, sort of running a traditional business working 70 hours a week. On the Gold Coast, I've done a lot of personal development sort of been around sort of business development and personal development and with landmark for a number of years. And we're sort of doing that in a senior leadership role within the Brisbane community and living a very full life, you know, and then, you know, we fell pregnant with with Lucas and, you know, I kind of before we fell pregnant, I did all these things to sort of, I was like, if I'm going to bring a human into the world, I want it to be, you know, the best possible shot at being healthy. And, you know, so we did all these things before we even got pregnant, you know, like, juice cleanses, and acupuncture and all this Chinese herbs and all this stuff. And, you know, and yeah, it was really just, when we did fell pregnant, it was like, it was I've always wanted to be a dad, I think, you know, being a dad is, is the greatest gift there is, you know, as well as being a parent and being a mom as well. And, you know, so everything was sort of, you know, perfectly normal throughout the pregnancy, we, you know, we sort of did a lot of healthy stuff, you know, I was always massaging and doing, um, heat work with my wife's body and, you know, eating right and doing, you know, going and seeing the right people and getting supported. And yeah, it was sort of May 2006 2014. And, you know, the basically what happened was I set up my business to run sort of two months, so I could be a full time dad for a couple of months without having the pressure of traditional business. And, you know, we also finish coaching on the leadership program as with landmark, which was a nine month program. And so, you know, Lucas was a part of that program for the whole nine months, you know, and it was sort of 20 to 30 hours. A week of, you know, really coaching people on what's possible and how to contribute to the world and, you know, becoming our highest version of ourselves. And so he was really in that environment for the nine months, you know, he was really the possibility of possibilities if you like, and we finished that coaching on the on the Tuesday. And, you know, I remember being in the Tuesday, we went into sort of get a checkup. And he was due the week before. So there was a bit of contention around his due date, and they weren't too sure. And we were sort of all always about the natural process. And just whenever he comes, he comes. And we had a dueler. And you know, we're doing all the right things. And we went out on the Tuesday, and they were that was sort of going to induce my wife. And then we thought, now we'll just we'll set a date. And if he's not out by next Monday, we'll we'll do that. We finished coaching on a Tuesday night, and yeah, it was sort of Thursday around lunchtime, sort of my wife sort of felt like something wasn't quite right. And, you know, so we called Jenny not long after it's about four o'clock we call Jenny. And our doula, and, you know, she was great. And she sort of said, like, you know, Cassie said, like, we hadn't, I, my ex wife hadn't shared it and felt Lucas move in a little while and, and Jenny sort of said, you know, we'll want you to drink a glass of cold water. And I'll make my way over there. And you know, that we'll get him to move around a bit, you know, and sort of nothing happened. And so that raised a few concerns and Jenny come over, and we went into, into the matter Hospital in Brisbane. And so, you know, who am I, my ex mother in law there, and my ex wife's best friend and sort of we went as a convoy. And I was like, five of us off, we go and pack all the hamper and all the baby's clothes and everything and off, we go into the, you know, into the hospital, having our baby, let all their friends know. And all their friends come over and look after the dog. And you know, everyone's sort of rallying around us to sort of support us in the journey. And, yeah, we got into the hospital, and it sort of felt like something was not quite right. You know, there was just there was a little bit of concern there. But you know, I guess the naivety of being like, a first time dad, I just never really been around childbirth a lot, or, you know, don't really know. And, yeah, so we ended up just my wife and I, my ex wife and I went into a small little room, probably not too, too bigger than this. And, you know, she lives on the bed. And there's two or three nurses around and they put a monitor on, on Lucas. And for some reason, it wasn't working properly, or couldn't the monitor wasn't working. So they they wheeled out the monitor and said, I'll we'll get we'll get another one in and they put another monitor on him. And you know, they said I'll this one's having issues as well. And, you know, we'll just get a doctor to come in. And yeah, so this, this woman comes in and sort of looks at the screen sort of does a few things over Kathy's belly, and then she sort of sends us and said, Sorry, so you. Unfortunately, your baby's got no heartbeat. He's died.

Ian Hawkins 7:56

Just just that matter of factly. Than

Unknown Speaker 7:59

just. And I was like, sorry. Like, she was kind of like, What the fuck did she say? Like, it didn't register actually, like we get anything because what she said is, you know this, you should see these red and yellow things here are red and white blood red and blue things. What we'll do is we'll go upstairs and get you a scan. All I heard was we're going upstairs to get a skin. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, for me, it was like, something's really wrong here. We need to go upstairs and get a proper skin. And so I didn't hit me like, I was like, Okay, so we're gonna go upstairs and drop the literally just fucks off. And it was so brutal the way she said it. Yeah. And I think that was part of what was so much of the shock, there was very little compassion. And, you know, we coached the hospital afterwards on this, but, you know, because we didn't want other people to go through that same experience, like the harshness, but you know, so we sort of, we go into this into this elevator, which is internal elevator, so we didn't have to go outside, and we're still sort of in shock. And we get upstairs, and we sort of walk into this sort of big surgery room type of room with his bed and all these monitors everywhere. And this guy comes over this Pakistani guy, and he's like, you know, and I said, mate, you're, um, oh, he said, I'm sorry for your loss. And I'm someone in life who's like, and particularly like, I've just spent the last nine months in a coaching program, which was all about, you fucking cause what you want to cause in life like, you don't get stopped. So I turned to him and said, mate, that's the wrong attitude to have. He's, whatever you've got to do. You've got to work your magic and get him out of that. And he turned to me and he said, Look, there's nothing we can do. You know? And, uh, kind of just hit me like, the main there's nothing we can do. Like you get him out of there. He said, You need to get him out of there. And he's like, we can't he's dead. And we can't like there's there's nothing you can do. Brutal And so we sit on the bench that like on the bed and He's like, Look, uh, you know, and still hadn't kind of hit, you know, it was still like this fucking shock of what do you mean? There's nothing you can do. Like, we were here two days ago. Yeah, you know, like, so we sit down, like I sit down on the bed next to my wife. He puts the monitor on and he points to the screen. He said, Look, you know, you see this screen up here the car, there's no activity car, it's black and white. It should be blue and red, signifying his heartbeat signifying that he's got no heartbeat. There's nothing you can do. I'm so sorry. I'm gonna give you a few moments to deal with it. And it was like, fucking It was horrific. Like, the scream like in that room. I will never forget it. Like, for me, it's horrific. Yeah. Both like both of us. But particularly like, for her and like,

almost out of body like, like

fucking horrific like someone was. Yeah, he like he could tell someone to die. You know what I mean? Like, if someone had died, like, it was almost like he was still there up until that point. You know, I mean, and it was like, fucking horrific. And we're just like bald and bald and bald, you know? And, yeah.

I know, they, I don't know, at that point, right. Like, how you even summon the strength to do whatever needs to be done next. Like, I've experienced childbirth with my wife, and I've experienced losing someone who's much older. And it's horrific. Been in that moment, I can't even comprehend the pain the like, yeah, just numbness or is it confused?

Definitely confusion like it because it went from being like, the most anticipated like, exciting moment of my life, you know what I mean? Like, it was like, and then it was like bang and no warning, like, pure excitement or pure, just bank, emptiness. Just horrific levels of pain and grief and sadness. And is like, there was there wasn't any sort of make wrong, or, you know, like, questioning, did we do something wrong? Or you know, who's to blame for it? It was just pure. Heart shattering just, you know.

Yeah. comprehend? Was there? Was there a part of you at that point that That's like trying to be a partner and comfort your wife? Or just in life? It's just so such a big shock that you're just trying to make sense that well? How did it How does all together? Like,

yeah, it was definitely supporting, like, holding her and, like, I was screaming, crying, but like it just for her like, because, you know, I could feel her pain too, you know, like I can, and I can feel that, that mother pain of like, you know, she's lost her son like that. You know, like that, that moment when you know, there's nothing you can do, you know, like, is gone. Like, it was like, What the fuck, you know? And like, was such beautiful people like, us, just devastated. And then, like, we must have cried for like, maybe 510 minutes. You know, and then it was like, fuck, now fucking gotta go. Tell people, you know, like, go go, like, what do we do now? You know, I mean, like, and it's like, okay, well, then the logistics of it kicked in, you know, like, Okay, well, she's got to give birth to him. You know what I mean? Like, we didn't want to, didn't want to have a C section like. So then, like, you know, I'd like to, then the doctors come in and sort of start giving us hey, you know, look, okay, so here are your options, you know, like, you can do this or this? And it's like, no, no, we will have him naturally, you know, and, you know, so we can have an epidural to take away the, the pain and, you know, your body will naturally like just what what happens now, you know, your body's naturally going to go into labor, and you're going to have a full labor experience as if, like, he's alive, you know, birth canal, like, you know, now we'll get like, and then Yeah, so like, supporting my wife to make whatever choices she wanted. If she wanted a C section, I would have, you know, empowered her that way. And she didn't, you know, she wanted to give birth to him and, you know, so then then it was like, fuck, you know, like, yeah, you know?

Yeah. Okay to talk about those moments after his birth.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, let's like just to give you what happened like, because we had family outside like it was like, they're fucking waiting You know, I mean there's the doula there's her best friend and mum and so we should have decided to go down the epidural route they then take us back down to that same fucking room. I don't know why they did that but the same room that they told us in obviously cleared out but um yeah and then like mother in law comes in and a best friend doula comes in and we're all just like he's fucking die. Like I've never heard of a stillborn baby before you don't mean like, no one wants to fuck until you when you're pregnant. Hey, just be careful babies can die at birth. You know what I mean? Like, no one has that conversation and you don't see people celebrating stillborn baby. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of a new subject. I call it naive idiot what? I'd never heard of a stillborn baby. I literally didn't know there's one in 116 babies die at birth. You know what I mean? Like some like, Fuck, man, like, we can put people on a on the moon, or we can talk to someone on the other side of the world in the palm of our hands. And like, we were here two days ago, and you don't know that he was sick. Because what had happened, he he was still in the sack. So the water still hadn't broken. The two bacteria had got up in the sack, like super rare, you know, like, no one could have predicted it. But um, like, he was obviously very sick for the wall. You know what I mean? Like? So, you know, like, no one would not know that two days before we got I mean, and so, you know, like, that was kind of some of the stuff going through my head anyway, then say, then, you know, we had Kathy's dad then came in about 15 minutes later, and it was dealing with everyone's grief as it came in, you know what I mean? Like, it was just Yes,

you see having to go through the whole thing again, with each new person. We think, Man,

oh, it was fucked. It was so horrific. And, like, I don't know, where like, I think a lot of the personal development I've done and you know, like, I just didn't want other people to feel the pain that I felt, you know? And so

are you thinking that like, like, how quickly after that, are you starting to think like that?

Oh, when I when I wanted to like, so like, after Kathy's family been there for maybe probably an hour, like an hour of sort of fully crying and just holding each other and bawling our eyes out. And now it's like a fucking after ring mum and dad, you know, like, my mum and dad, you know, like, they've got grandkids, you know, like, four or five grandkids or whatever. You know, this was our first my first child, and

how could you even speak like,

I, you know, I credit a lot of the training that I've done with landmark was, in a way being able to, you know, in some ways, it might have been bypassing it. But like, I was able to put myself aside and create with mom and dad, like, when I rang them, I'm like, Hey, are you can you guys, please sit down and just put this on speaker you know, you know, Mike, I'm really sorry to share this with you. But you know, and I just shared with them, but I was really conscious of how I delivered it to them, I just didn't want them to be feeling the pain that I felt, you know, like, I didn't want them to be, you know, obviously, they're gonna be left with whatever they're left with. But I just thought if I could share with them in such a way that wasn't just, you know, like, I didn't want them to see me hurt, you know what I mean? Like, it would have been so hard for them knowing I'm going through that I didn't want to amplify that, you know, so it was kind of like, in a way of being able to just, just be brave, you know, be courageous be. Don't lose it too much. You know, I don't really I didn't think that don't lose it too much. It was more just, I just wanted love and connection in the space, you know, without the concern. I mean, like, yeah,

I, for those of us who are particularly sensitive to other people's stuff, like, I know, you are like, it's amazing. And those times we're thinking about other people, like I'm like, I remember the same thing, like when my dad passed is I'm thinking constantly about not just my family, but the other people in the room and all these different things who might have like, they might be there with someone who's really sick. Like it's patenting a lifetime. Right? And it's great that it helps other people but like, while your tears I imagine there's a fair bit of, of like, you're still grieving some of it, because you just gave so much energy to other people at that time. Yeah,

for sure. F

or sure. Like, I don't think I processed a lot of it, you know, like, it was such a shock and so much pain and I've never lost anyone, like, you know, like my granddad had died. And, you know, I mean, he was 80 or whatever, you know, I mean, like the old people die all the time. Like it's they've lived their life and it's more like I was always like, Oh, it's celebrate their life. You know, they've, they've had a great life. You know, when, when a lie I forgets that like he was the possibility of possibility. So it was like when that gets fucking stripped at that, that last moment that rawness and I didn't have any coping mechanisms like I didn't know how to process that raw emotion that was there, you know what I mean? Like, a lot of the personal development training that I did was a lot of mindset stuff and how to how to empower yourself despite your mental state, I would say, You don't mean like, despite your thoughts, despite your feelings, you can you can still take action, you can still cause stuff in the world, you know, I mean, it's and I see it now, is there some form of energetic emotional bypassing, you know, like, I wasn't actually letting the full pain and the full experience and, and giving myself fully to just allowing myself to just grieve, you know, just being that pain and be okay, you know, like, and I think a lot of that had to do with when I was when I was a kid, like, you know, a lot of the stuff that I've done particularly last sort of four months, like around my inner child wounding and as sort of a two year old boy, sort of my dad's dad died, and he was the youngest of five boys, you know, and to dad was very close with his dad and he died suddenly, like, they'll fishing one weekend and then bang, he had a heart attack and died. And I can't remember the you know, and like, I've done 10 years of personal development, you know, where we sit in, think about what, when was the first time you had this experience? You don't mean in the mind? And how can never think of shit when I was younger? I just never think of it. I don't know, if you want me to make something up from when I was three, you may not know, I don't know, you know. And feeling this pain, like, particularly in the last few months, like, you know, having, you know, beautiful, beautiful relationship, you know, like it's being in a really intimate, close divine union with someone has brought up a lot of this sort of inner woundings, right. And I can remember the experience, I don't remember the actual event itself. But I remember the feeling of being helpless around my dad crying and crying and crying and being really and me as a two year old boy not being able to enjoy, like not being able to make him laugh not being able to make it better, you know, mean? Like that? Yeah.

So we might come back to that, because I imagine there's going to be some some significant patterns that then unfolded from that moment. I'd love to hear more about the what unfolded in the weeks and months after, for the benefit of people who have been through this. So they got, you know, they can really relate to it. Because because I know that the first couple of weeks it difficult, but there's a lot of people around. Yeah, will slowly start to fade away. And then you're left going well, what the fuck do I do now?

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, we had such a busy life before, but a lot of people just didn't know what to do. Yeah, for. Fun, right. It's probably one of the worst things you can do. If I can share with anyone, like, sometimes the best thing you can do is message someone and hey, I'm just thinking of your I have no words to say other than I love you. And if I can be here in any way, let me know. That's so much more supportive, and so much more loving and reassuring to that person than just not doing anything because you don't know. You don't I mean, it's okay not to know, I didn't fucking know. Like, I don't know what to say. What do you say to someone who's just lost a baby at birth like that? I did. There's nothing you can say. It's not it's not going to take my pain away by you saying some magical shit. You know what I mean? I just, you know, I mean, but people sort of didn't you know what I mean? And that was a bit of a gap for me anyway. Yeah, we had his funeral A week later, you know, which was was fucking horrific. You know, like, looking at a little, you know, we went casket shopping and we had to, you know, I can't remember who will the funeral place was in Brisbane, but they were really beautiful. They gave us a complimentary casket and was a part of their, you know, just a couple of shout outs, like heartfelt was amazing. They took photos with Lucas. So you know, Cassie gave birth to him, which was like the next morning so that was on a Thursday night gave birth to him on the Friday morning you know, was was very horrific like because you're going through labor pushing and then it was silence you know what I mean? There was no screams there was no nothing It was pure silence and you know, we got to hold him you know, like it was like a full you know, you can imagine a full baby you know what I mean? They just waiting for him to open his eyes open his mouth, you know, I mean, so we had family and friends come and join us at the at the at the hospital. You know, mom and dad flew down from towns All and I had my best mates come in and you know, people got to be around him. And you know, we had him there for people to see, you know, like and then we on the Friday night we watched I remember taking him up with the boys, we got KFC and beer and I took my boy up and we watched Australia versus New Zealand in the 40 which kicked everyone out of the oven, they managed to get out of the hospital staff room with the TV and you know, they don't normally door but we got all beer in and you know, as far as to my mates and we just sat there with him. And you know, and then like you say, like, they all go back to their normal lives, you know, I mean, they go home. And then we did a photo shoot with him the next day. And then we said goodbye to him. They went off and got cremated. And then we had his funeral A week later, you know, and yeah, we had a good friend Madeline, who's was a senior program leader at Landmark and phenomenal woman like powerhouse woman just week she flew up from from Sydney to sort of lead the ceremony and really provided a beautiful space for us to just honor Him and grieve and cry. And you know, it was such a sad space, it was so horrific, you know, and you know, then we, we went away to New Zealand for 10 days afterwards, like, we just decided to just we needed to get away, you know, and I sort of say to people, we did a pork belly and lamb shank tour of New Zealand because all we did was go, you know, on the North Island, and we just went to pub, pork belly and lamb shank, and then to the next pub, pork belly, and we didn't do any sightseeing. We didn't. Yeah, I mean, we're just in our own cocoon, and we just ate like cheese, wine ice cream, you know, just picked out, you know? And yeah, it was kind of when I got back, like it was it was just like, and I get it like people's lives, like you say people's lives move on, you know. And he was like, you know, part of that one of the hardest parts was coming home from the hospital with an empty, empty carrier, you know, mean, and having to take that into the house with the nursery? Going like, what do we do, you know, like, a whole life had been planned around this baby, you know, and, you know, so yeah, like, it was just horrific. And then I was running two businesses at the time. And I remember being in Townsville at my parents place. And, you know, I was expecting one of the, it was an app, this is like, 2014. So it was a smartphone app that showed local businesses and their deals. And I was going to be launching into towns or when I was looking for sort of reps to take on and, you know, I was lying on the couch going, I just, like, what's the point? Yeah, you know, like, I don't fucking care anymore. You know, I mean, so much pain. So confused. I was like, I just wanted to be a dad so much these last year, you know, like, everything had been working towards this. And, you know, I remember, like, my ex wife, Kathy, saying to me, you know, like, be like, you're gonna be a demonstration to your son, like, what's possible, you know, like, you get to live, you know, you get to choose who you're going to be about this not like, in a bad way, you know what I mean? It was really sort of, sort of picked myself up off the canvas, and, you know, go, Well, I'm gonna be a demonstration of what's possible in life because heating it to live a life. You know what I mean? And that inhaled? Yeah, to me, because I was like, you know, well, I'm gonna honor my son by living my fullest life. You know what I mean? And, you know, which turned into a burden, which we can share about, but um, you know, I've got me up off the canvas. And, you know, I've got back down, we come down from Townsville, and you know, I was overweight, I was kind of like, I can't keep working 70 hours a week. You know, I don't want to do this business anymore. I started looking at other opportunities to just get myself out of it. And a friend of mine had done pretty well in Isagenix. You know, he'd lost 10 kilos himself. And I've watched him build the business over about a six month period. And, you know, I'd spoken to him. I had the irony of this now, like, end up being one of my best mates. And we, you know, we traveled the world together, but he went, I rang him before we went to New Zealand, because he was doing some advertising in my newspaper, we sort of and I was helping him with Isagenix and just helping him, you know, that's my, that was my business. And I rang him and he's like, Hey, Dad, how's it going? And I was like, fuck, like bank straightaway again, you know, like, it was like a trauma, having to deal with telling everyone over and over and over and over and over again, like, not their fault. You know what I mean? Like they hadn't seen anything like we don't fucking put a Facebook post up, you know, and go, Hey, by the way, my baby died and asked me about it, you know? And I was just started ballin on my car, man. I'm so sorry, bro. Like, sorry to tell you this, you know, but he died in labor you know, blah blah, blah. And he started bawling his eyes out because he'd had a stillborn baby man each other for three years for about never talked about it right and he's got you know he had two beautiful girls that come afterwards but never talked about it you know I mean it was never you know I mean I never saw a Facebook post, you know, I mean, and it's like what do you mean? Yeah. And he's like, Yeah, you know and like, same experience, you know died in labor in you know, so yeah, when I got back from New Zealand I was I rang him I was like, Man, I like I want to, I just don't want to do what I'm doing and I'm done. You know, I've been watching you. You make any money off? Yeah, because it's smoke and mirrors network marketing, like Yeah, hashtag lifestyle, right? I've been around long enough. I've been you know, I was in MMA in my early 20s. And I got pitched every five minutes when I was in business coaching. Like, I've been in business mentoring and sales for 10 years. Like, everyone's like, you'd be great in my team. And I'm like, a fucking course I would train in sales. I've got a massive network. You know, people trust me, people love me, you know, you know, and I care about people. So. And I said, Cut the bullshit, show me how much money you make. And he showed me that he was making 10 grand a month. And I said, All right, well, man, if you can show me how to do that in 90 days, I mean, all I said, I'll give you 30 hours a week, because I'm already doing 6070 suck. I don't really have a lot of capacity. But you know, and yeah, that was in June. And so Lucas died in May. That was in June. And within 30 days, I was making 10 grand a month, we had 30 days. Yeah, I was literally in a week, to be honest. It was it was bucket went ballistic. Like I rang it, you know, I just rang people and shared my story and said, Look, you want to get healthy, I want to, you know, this is on a mission. You know, I shared my story, I, you know, you know,

our story, right.

100%. And I was just authentic. I wasn't trying to, you know, manipulate people or dominate people into something like I did wasn't selling the business opportunity, so to speak, I was just selling like, hey, health is really important for me. You know, I've put on a heap of weight, I want to lose a bunch of weight, but also want to help people and create a really healthy community. Are you interested? If you're not, it's totally cool, but you know, and most people like, yeah, look, I'm interested or whatever. And so we registered a bunch of our friends. And then all of a sudden, like, you know, we started making money and made dumb, you know, sort of three, four grand in one week, and then people like, hey, you know, I'm interested in the business side of it. And then, you know, within sort of 30 days, what I'm doing buddy vision boards in my house, you know, like, yeah, 1015 people around and, you know, we'd like, what are your dreams? And, you know, it's like, this, the nursery was still set up, right? Like, it just, it was, like, you know, the nursery is almost like, the old life and the new lot, you know, I mean, like, don't deal with that crap, this positive, you know, feel good, motivated, you know, healthy and, you know, like, just got this new vision for life. And, you know, I mean, it took the pain away, in a sense. So now, yeah,

I'll keep going. So,

now, I'm just gonna say, took off from there, like, you know, within 90 days, or like, I was getting flown to Sydney to train people and share my story, you know, you know, I mean, like, it's an amazing story, right. Like, and, you know, obviously, people get inspired and impacted by it. And, you know, the company saw that as well. And it was, like, you know, well, let's put cash at the front of the room. And, you know, like, obviously, I've done a lot of training, so I can train a room of 400 people, it's, you know, like I was, I love that, you know what I mean? So it was like, it's a win win win for everyone. But, like, it became like this tsunami of people around and, you know, sharing my story, even, you know, bigger events, and, you know, like, just, yeah, led to five years of traveling the world and, you know, changing 1000s of people's lives. And, you know, like, it was a beautiful part of my life. But, yeah, yeah.

So you've got something to throw yourself into? How did your wife then cope? At that time? Because, So, mean, you've both got stuff that you've still got to process, you're at least channeling it somewhere. You even said to me, before we jumped on, you said you use that pain to really drive your results? Yeah. How did how did things unfold for her? Well,

so like, we were both sort of senior leaders with landmark. So, you know, like, we had sort of landmark it said to us, just take your time, whenever you want to come back, come back. You know, so Cassie, sort of, you know, was involved like, sort of involved herself with that community a little bit more. But we fell pregnant with Hendrix eight weeks later, you know, we we felt pregnant with Hendrix in the I think she found out in the July I think it was, you know, I mean, so they were like was less than three months where A bang, she's now pregnant. And you can imagine what that's like for a woman, you know, who's already gone through that. And, you know, like, you know, a lot of her making herself wrong. And, you know, questioning yourself as a mom and her body and you know, all of that as well. You know, and yeah, it was. So then her falling pregnant again, brought up everything again, you know, like, what's gonna happen with this one? You know? And, yeah, it didn't. Yeah, sorry. Go on

natural fear. I imagine because I was gonna be one of my questions is like, you've had more kids like that pregnancy is bittersweet anyway, because you're constantly thinking about what if something goes wrong, but you're excited. But then having gone through what you went through that must have taken that to a whole nother level?

Oh, for sure. For sure. It was like, even the first 12 weeks when we could lose the baby had I mean, it just it was, and the thing that it happened so far at the end, like it was he was 42 weeks, right? So it like, there was never a say you don't feel safe again. I mean, it's like, at any point, something could happen. And, you know, I don't mean to put any fear in anyone who's out there who's pregnant or you know, whatever. But for me, I've never heard of stillborn babies, you know, I mean, so it was never a fee, or never a concern for mine in the space. You know, but that stuff happens, you know, and like, you know what I mean? Like, I had a friend the other day who was, you know, having a baby. And I like, I don't normally say this to people, but you know, I just said to her, like, look, trust your body, you know, more than anything else, okay? Trust your body. And trust him, if you don't feel movement, you know, main movements normal, if you don't feel movement, then go and go on to get help. Men Other than that, trust your body, you know what I mean? That's all I ever get. That's the only advice I give to anyone, you know. But like for, you know, for Cassie? Like, I think, you know, we really didn't have the tools to communicate about our break together. You know, I mean, I was in a different such a different space. And I don't know, whether this led to you know, we've had, we've had two beautiful boys since and, you know, we've been separated now, like, for four years, you know, like, 2018. You know, the marriage ended, but you know, it? Yeah, I don't know, how, how the pregnancy and the ongoing fear of that. You know, it's horrific, like, you know, we don't like this, we love this podcast, you know, like, you don't get taught how to deal with this grief. And, you know, you probably know better than most it's like, grief for me, now, I'm just learning this, like it's stored in the body. And, you know, we don't process it, well, it's going to show up in other ways that are really unhealthy, or it'll it'll express itself in other relationships, or, you know, whatever. And I certainly didn't process my grief. I wouldn't say healthily because I just, I don't think that's healthy and unhealthy. I think you're just as always conscious and unconscious. You know, I mean, like, I think unhealthy can be like this bad or wrong, you know, I mean, process of bad or wrong, I just knew what I knew to do at the time, what good is a human was throwing myself into work and being really driven and inspiring other people and change it and she didn't have that vehicle, you know, she didn't, she didn't have that expression for her or that distraction from her for her. So for her a lot of it was more internalized, like making yourself wrong and questioning yourself as a mom, and, obviously, and so, you know, going through that whole process, and I think women are different than men that way, you know, I think we sort of, you know, I don't know, like we sort of get a sense of purpose and accomplishment helps us value ourselves, you know, in a way that is different than women. You know, when I think like, I certainly did that to handle my grief. And, yeah, I think

you think about the natural biological instincts of being the nurturer and having all that like not just maternal instincts, but the whole body prepares them for that whole experience and then that's taken away like I can't again can't comprehend that then that has mentally emotionally physically. Fear of then going through that again, because grief brings blame like, like self blame, external blame, that's part of the process when when you when you're like, you're literally carrying a child like again, we can't comprehend what that must have done. So so you can really at that early stage, it's already putting pressure on the two of you or it's he's having to deal with what he's having to deal with. And the both of you have got this fear around around the you know, the birth

Yeah, I like we didn't talk about it a lot and you You know, we got coaching around it, but I wouldn't say it was like proper emotional support, you know, sort of how to understand the men the mind and how to power ourselves around it, so to speak, but it really wasn't that deep healing work that I've experienced in the last, you know, period of my life anyway, like, like, we talked about it a lot. And, you know, I think for me, I thought, in a way talking about it a lot was healing. You know, like, because it made me sort of, it might not, you know, brought up a lot of emotion and, you know, when I'd be sharing stage, and, you know, it's four or 500 people in the room, and I share the story, and I cry, and, you know, I can hear people crying, and, you know, I share about the journey of it, and, you know, kind of the, I guess, the other side of it, as well, you know, and sharing about life, you know, and the lessons from it. And, you know, having having more gratitude for the kids you do have and the moments you do have, you know, and the richness that I've got in my life because of that event, you know, like, I live life, like I could get run over by a bus tomorrow. I don't think people many people live like that, you know, that sort of thing, tomorrow's and given, you know, and, and there's all these beautiful lessons that have come from it, but like, I thought that was the grief coming. But it's almost like No, no, that wasn't the real grief. Like that was sort of just that's just the surface level stuff to sort of, you know, not make myself feel good, but certainly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think there's a deeper there's a deeper understanding of grief that you can't talk about, you can't process through your mind you really need to feel and

and it seemed to me, sorry, so that last bit here,

sit in the pain, you know, experience the pain and let the body do what the body does, you know what I mean? Without trying to, you know, make make meaning of it. Yeah, yeah.

And it's everyone's unique. Everyone has a unique experience throughout whether you're a couple going through what you went through or, or losing someone like there's no comparison because it's other stuff that it brings to the surface that you're not like you talked about before about no one tells you about stillborn children. I, we had our first child and and there was some, you know, there was some traumatic elements to it and craziness and you're like, Why doesn't anyone tell you this? But there are some elements of all grief, that doesn't matter what someone tells you. Nothing can be for right? So when you're young fella Hendrix is finally born. Like, what was that experience like that? Must you follow?

Yeah, it was it was you folks a perfect word for it. Because it was like, he come out in the sack, too. So he was he was still in the water, like, literally caught like, This blew me away.

Is he? I don't know. I didn't even know that was the thing. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, they're in there. But I didn't know they could come out in the water, you know, without I mean, it's pretty unique. And they're Water Babies. And it means a whole bunch of shit. Who knows? But, you know, like, is, it was the pure relief, you know, the pure relief and the joy? You know, lots of lots of tears and, you know, celebration. And yeah, it was magical. Like

you mentioned in one of your stories in a previous conversation we've had how, so you separated from your wife, and then then that real feeling of disconnect. And you had a pretty magical moment recently, where I was like, Luca is coming back home to you. So are you happy to share that? Yeah. Yeah,

sure. So, like, we, you know, like, we had his ashes in a container. And, you know, we've always sort of talked about maybe burying him somewhere or, you know, creating a tree or something, right. Or letting him go in the ocean. There's a few things about it, but we never really got around to it, you know, and, you know, like, when I when I left the marriage in 2018, or sort of, you know, like, there's just never really any a conversation around eating that, right. And I actually moved back in with my ex wife and her mother in law in the middle of September 2021. You know, for family reasons, for personal reasons. I was really suffering from a lot of depression, I was quite suicidal in my thoughts. I was very down, I was just lost. I was fucking broken. I was a broken man. And just beat down and it was kind of like, I'd avoided a lot of life lessons or soul lessons in a way by staying very busy. You know, being very, very ambitious. Being very goal orientated, sort of accomplishing things, you know, and Dumb. He was kind of like I was bankrupt, like, the saying landmark, like your strong suits, like the ways of being an acting that you cause results in life no longer work. And it's kind of like the the acts that I was chopping the tree down. It's just no as blunt no matter how hard I chopped, it was blunt and I was I was fucked, I was so broken. And I was living in Byron Bay, like, you know, I was consulting, doing business work and working, you know, four days a week, I had my boys three days a week, I was, you know, earning a good career money and you know, like living in a really beautiful environment in Byron Bay, nice apartment, like you're looking go, that's a nice life, you don't mean and but I was deeply, like, just lost, you know, and, you know, I, I'd taken a lot of psychedelics at the end of 2022, sort of, I was really lost and angry at the world, you know, about sort of what was going on. And, you know, I was just, I was lost. So I was, you know, just being honest, I attempted suicide through psychedelics. And I'd had enough for the world, to be honest, I was in so much pain, and I didn't know what it was at the time, I was just really angry. And I was really sad. And I was lost. And I was like, fuck this world. I'm out of here. You know, it's too much. You know, and I think a lot of people have felt that over the last few years, a lot of impacts anyway, you know, and I think, to maybe a lot of people who haven't processed grief, like, I didn't know that I wasn't processing stuff, you know what I mean, I was doing my best anyway. And I get support and get guidance. But anyway, like that experience, like, opened up a whole world of sort of mind blowing shit, but it opened up a really dark space for me, you know what I mean? Really dark shadows came in and my life became really, sort of, I just couldn't cope. I just, I didn't believe in myself anymore. I, I couldn't talk to him. I couldn't even look people in the eye. Like, you know, I'm someone who's highly, you know, I mean, I've spent 20 years in sales and personal development. I've talked to anyone, anywhere, anytime. You know, and like, I'm confident I'm, you know, a lot of myself, I don't, you know, but I just was lost, you know.

So d, if I imagine you've processed a fair bit of that now, do you know what that underlying angle was that you hadn't processed?

Um I think I was really heartbroken. Yeah. You know what I mean, like, I was angry at the world. Because it had caused so much like I was just in so much pain, you know, like, it was so painful dealing with Lucas dying. And then, you know, I left Isagenix in 2019, I sold my business, and I walked away, and I'd left my marriage, I left my community. So I built this community up, you know, and I've given my guts to empowering all these people and, you know, really just fucking giving my soul and you know, when I walked away, like, this sort of, it was like, no one knew how to deal with me walking away, it was kind of the same when I when Lucas died. It's like, even though we had a beautiful community around us, no one reached out and just said, Hey, I'm just I don't know what to say, but I'm here. And so I experienced enormous amount of grief with that, that I didn't really process. And then when I left, Isagenix, it was like, my community around me, had done exactly the same thing. You know, I mean, like, people don't know what to say, and, you know, they've got their own agendas and whatever. But, you know, I mean, it was like this fucking horrific sort of not able to process and then feeling really lonely, isolated, like, probably scared, you know, it was there too, but like, really sad. I was heartbroken. And I felt like everyone had their own sort of agendas and their own sort of self concerns, and no one gave a fuck about me. That's what it was.

Particularly when you're selling Yeah, I do. I particularly when you've spent your life being that person, that everyone else.

Yeah, for sure. Right. And here, I was given so much. And then it was like, such nothing. You know what I mean? And then, like, I think it was, yeah.

I like it. I liken it to, like, we all have a well of what it is that we do really well. And eventually when we are continuing to empty that well into other areas, and we're not having it replenished by reciprocation, or by finding other ways to well, then yeah, that's what happens right? We We, everything dries up and we just sink into A into this dark hole. And then we're low, but it's just again, it's a confusion energy talked about before. Like, How is this even possible? Like, I've tried so hard to keep everyone else happy. Like, here I am, like, yeah, just and it makes no sense. Yeah,

yeah, it's confusing as shit. Like, we went, like, you know that, like, they're good people, you know, man, it's not like they're dickheads. But, you know, I mean, it's but it's like, doesn't take away the this, like, you know that heartbreak of it really you know? You know, like, I was just angry, like, I was just so angry at the world, you know, like, I felt so betrayed. And, you know, like I yeah, like, there was stuff around the kids and that sort of stuff. But it was just mainly I was just angry at the world and heartbroken, you know, that, in a way your humanity treats each other this way, in some way.

So how did you how did you pick yourself up, like from that suicide attempt and, and rebuild from there? Like, where? Where do you go from there?

Yeah. Well, like I, you know, I take my hat off to my ex wife, you know, like, she, she sort of welcomed me back into her, her family home with her mom, and, you know, like, like, I left the marriage, you know, I walked out and, you know, like, it wasn't, wasn't like, it wasn't really aggro. Like, there was sort of animosity, and, you know, like, there's obviously upset and everything like that, but we'd sort of mended a little bit of it. But, uh, you know, I sort of said to her, you know, like, I got nothing, I can't contribute financially, I can't do my job, I, you know, I can look after the kids, and I can help around the yard, cuz she lived in five acres in the Northern Rivers. And I'll cook once a week, once a week, that's it, that's all I got, you know, I mean, I, I don't have any space, I don't have any, you know, that's all I can contribute. So yeah, that helped like it, you know, being around the kids helped, you know, having a bit of a purpose to help them get up and go to school or, you know, pick them up after school and take them, you know, down to the beach, or, or whatever. Nature helped, you know, like, being surrounded by nature, like, in like, it's just the little bit by little bit, I chipped away at it, you know, and I kept sort of asking for support and getting guidance, and there's a few things I like nature helped. going for walks like, so I didn't have, you know, I've never been a gym junkie, or, you know, I didn't sort of I don't, you know, you go run and I'm like, What the fuck you run into?

Running, it's what you're running from.

That's the only time you ever see me run. And it sounds to me.

Like, I've never experienced the joy of my body exercising like that, you know, and so I'd go for a walk, you know, for half an hour down the road. And I did a session with a galactic intermediate, which was a bit crazy.

I'm talking about than anything, man. Like, I've been around personal development, and that's making back all the difference.

It you know, and she was like, she, you know, she now me instead of one, one day, she goes, Look, all I'm getting from my guides is sports, sport, drugs, drugs, drugs. Fuck you now me, you know, like, yeah. Okay, so, and we did some sort of some processes around. Like, what? Because I like I was deeply questioning my I lost my spark in life, you know, and that was kind of the work we started to do was sort of to journal out, like, why I'm asking myself that question. You know, and, and what's my concern? Like, what's my biggest fear? And, you know, she was like, Well, you know, I feel like, I've lost my spark. And then she's, like, you know, and so, like, doing the deeper layer stuff behind that. It's a really weird shit. Why it's on here, but it's, you know, just intergalactic tribal stuff that's like, ancient weird shit that aren't like this, but anyway. And then I did some breathwork stuff helps, you know, sort of, you know, did a bit of Wim Hof stuff was done sort of every couple of days. Like, I wasn't putting all this pressure on to change my life and have to develop these daily habits and completely transformed my life. It was literally just do what I could at the time, you know, like, if there's people watching this, like, you know, like, I know, for myself, I didn't have much I didn't have anything to give, you know, and I've been someone who puts so much pressure on myself and so much, you know, I mean, like, literally, two months after my baby died, I'm fucking sharing about it on stage to inspire other people. You know what I mean? Like, I'm always for myself, but it was like this level of compassion. Shouldn't that I had to learn for myself and be gentle. So breath work to help. So I started to do a bit of that. And then, you know, that was one of the most humbling experiences was putting a resume together.

Yeah, you've had businesses for all those years. Oh,

man, like, you know, man, I hadn't put a resume together since like, 2000. And, like, three or four, you know, like, you know, like, I've coached I could walk in and coach most business owners doesn't matter, you know, like, at high levels, any, you know, I mean, here I am going and fucking begging for a job to serve people coffee, you know? And, but it was, it was a step for me, you know what I mean? It like, whatever steps fine, just as long as you take a step, it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't have to be this point. You know, like, sorry, were you gonna say,

I'm gonna say it got you back in a community with people?

100% Well, what it did was like, a festival all if someone, like I went in and applied for a job on the river in a ballerina, and Georgia, that young manager there was like, like, I connected with her and sort of talk to her and like, it was like me putting myself out there a little bit. You know, I mean, it was like, fuck, okay, I can do this, you know, I could talk to her. And, you know, like, okay. And she believed in me, you know, I mean, she's like, Yeah, I'll come in for a trial on Thursday. So I was like, okay, she built someone else believes in me, you know, and it's like that, like saying, like, you know, someone else believes in you more than you believe yourself. Like, sometimes you need that reflection. And, you know, I've always reflected that to people, but I was at my lowest I was like, fighting, you know, and so, you know, went in and it gave me a, you know, a sense of achievement and a bit of a purpose. And I could, I could take my mind off all the negative thoughts and all the experience, like feeling, experiencing myself feeling shit and feeling really lost and lonely and deep, depressed and down. And, you know, I can just okay, I have to go and be positive at this job and, and help people and, you know, I was literally like, questioning fuck am I going to be able to learn the menu and teach, you know, talk to people about what's on the food menu? And it's like, man, like, you don't you are catching on. I mean, like, I look back now I'm gonna, it's funny, but like, at the time, it wasn't funny at all, you know what I mean? It was fucking confronting, you know, and I then when, when I got that job on the Thursday, you know, I then went and applied for another job at the coffee shop just around the corner that was like this really busy bakery. And they do really nice food. And it was just super busy. And I was like, oh, man, I reckon it'd be cool to work there. Because it's just like, like, I like working somewhere where I'm proud to work, you know, and if, if people go there and have really nice food and coffee, like, it's very busy, so obviously, they do a good job. And, you know, like, and I was kind of like, okay, if I just go there and apply, you know, I've given my resume there the week before. And then key is follow up. If you're in business, follow up, follow up, follow up. So one thing I've learned in May, you made a fortune was following people up. But um, I went and followed up and said, Hey, I handed my resume and she's like, oh, yeah, so that sorry, come in for a trial tomorrow. And I got that job as well. And, you know, that Job was like, literally, serving people. As they're coming through, I'll get your food, I'll order your coffee. Thanks. Give me the money. See later, you know, me, like, four or 500 people a day, like, no time to think no time to, like, uh, you know. And that was like, February, March, you know, and I still, like, it took a few months, and I started to feel sort of, okay, I'm starting to feel a bit more of my vibe back. You know, I wanted to learn coffee. So I hopped on the coffee machine a little bit. And then that sort of gave me a bit of a spark because I love learning, you know, like, it's one of my core sort of values is growth and sort of says like, okay, and then yeah, new owners took it over, and completely changed the culture of it. I was ready to leave because I was like, you know, they've been treating me pretty badly. You know, there's the family run business, and they were just terrible staff. And I'm like, Oh, I wonder why there's nobody working here. Why don't why there's job vacancies gone. Went sometimes. Sometimes it's because no one else wants to fucking work there. Is there to work for, you know what I mean? Like, so, you know, I was coughing all this shit. And I'm like, I'm better than this. I don't need to hear you. You know, literally, I'd walk in at 530 in the morning and one of the daughters it'd be like, make sure you put the pie signs on and I'm like, I've been putting the pie signs on every morning for four months. Y'all have been like, Thanks for leadership, you know? Like it's time to leave and then Sam the new owners come in and said, Hey, we're taking over the bakery. And I was like, you know, we if you want to be on the coffee machine, we'll put you on the coffee machine. I'm like, okay, cool. I'll be full time there and I'll make coffee and you know, that was a beautiful experience learning coffee and I just loved it because it kind of brought back I wasn't just making coffee. I was actually make you know, for those coffee lovers out there. You know what it's like when you get a good coffee, and you get a good brew. As if I can change your whole day. You know, I mean, like people, for some people like this is a highlight of my day. So I would make coffees, and then I'd show them some of the artwork and, you know, like, like, hundreds of coffees like three 400 coffees a day, right. It's like pump and pump and pump. But it gave me purpose. Again, it gave me a bit of, I started to get myself back, I started to get that sort of mojo back, I started to believe in myself again, I started to love people again, because I was, I was, I didn't love myself in a way. So I couldn't love other people. And, you know, like, you know, I started to sort of trust myself again. And slowly over time, sort of, you know, I started to get my belief back. And then yeah, sort of, four months ago, everything changed when I sort of met Katie and my partner now and I went to meet event who his brother was dying of cancer. And he put on this event to honor his brother and sort of say, Everyone get your heartbeat back, it was like it was on your, on your beat, I think it was called. And it was all about sort of getting that mojo back in your life. And, for me, it was like, you know, my mates really successful in the network marketing industry. And he's done a lot of personal development. And, you know, I've got a lot of love for him and his wife and the beautiful people. And I was like, I'll go along and support my mind. And also, like, I want to sort of get my spark back, you know, I feel like I'm sort of getting, you know, catch back again. And I'm starting to feel that sort of, you know, maybe I want something more out of life again, you know, there's nothing wrong with just making coffee and being in a serving a restaurant, but it was like, I just, I sort of, like, want to, just like, I want to get myself back, you know, like, I think there's something more for me to do you know, what's the next phase in my life? And, yes, I walk into this event, and I walk in and see Katie, my partner, and she's crying. And t just for some reason, they started crying. And I'd seen her on Facebook before. You know, she's a healer and a coach, just feminine business work. And I'd seen her about a year before. She's really beautiful, like, gorgeous face, like just beautiful blue eyes and big lips, and just curly hair. She's just fucking spectacular. And I used to follow her online, like, you know, like, I was in the network marketing space, I was in the online business space. I just, I love surround myself with, you know, beautiful people with beautiful messages. And, you know, she didn't know that I knew her. You know, I mean, we just had mutual friends. And I started following it. And so I walk in and just said, Well, you know, hey, it's beautiful to see someone who's authentic offline as they are online. You don't know me, but you're Katie. Right? She was like, yeah. Do you like yeah, like, you know, I follow you, which is probably got mutual friends, you know, I've seen you share before. You know, I know you're eating. So you know, I'd give you a hug, but I know you're eating. And just like, now have a hug. And I gave her a hug and walked off. And little did I know, she'd been calling in her king for over a year. And you know, all of her friends had been trying to set her up with all these guys in the last few months. So I woke off and her friend was like, Who the fuck was that? You know, we are Yeah, I didn't really think anything of it wasn't like, oh, I want to be with her and think and then, you know, the event kind of unfolded. And, you know, we were sort of dancing and singing, and I sort of started to feel myself again. And, you know, like, I sort of said to her, hey, you know, she was sort of dancing in the middle and was like, lots of people around and I said, Hey, is it okay? If I treat you like a goddess? And she was like, Yeah, sure. And I'm like, Would you like a glass of water? I'll get you a glass of water, you know, just to look after I wasn't trying to hook up with it, just wanting to treat it really? Because she's a really beautiful person, you know? And yeah, at the end of the event, we literally just sat on the couch and talked and then I said, Oh, do you want to let's get on the beach and talk and, you know, the next 10 days, we spent 40 hours on the phone talking to each other, each other and, you know, we've been on this incredible journey sense of the last four months where all of our has been the most magical, delicious moments in my life. And it's been very confronting, because it's like all my, all my wounds around I literally said, when we got together, I don't have any wounds. So real good, you know.

Dancing much work on myself on personal development, and I've done you know, coaching on, you know, I've healed myself, you know, I mean, like,

you know, she laughed at me, and then, you know, more all my wounds have proceeded to come up at a very intense level, you know, because, yeah, the love we have for each other is very intense. So, my wounds her wounds, we sort of been triggering each other. We're both very big on taking responsibility, like we're both big on you know, like owning our shit. And I quickly realized that a Holy fuck, I've got a whole world of wounds that I knew nothing about, you know, being able to process that in a look, it's been fucking challenging, very challenging, you know, and we've been through like, I would say, Help. You know, it's been very painful, like, painful as pain put it this way as painful as what? Childbirth has been like, it's been fucking horrific. Oh, wow. Yeah. Because it's like I never dealt with I never dealt with the grief. Like, I never dealt with the pain, right? So it was like, the pains there to in my face like I couldn't avoid it down, you know what I mean? And it was like, you know, like this outpouring of fucking sadness and grief and you know? Yeah, just extreme levels of pain, you know. And

when when you talked about like going through hell I got like a knife through the liver, right? So it's like that's like intense anger. So sometimes the anger sits there and we don't even know why can be from like, you've just, you've just outlined all these incredible, incredibly painful moments. So that's going to happen. But like, you know what it's like, right? When you start going back, it's all those other things that happened before all of that where they're still sitting in the system. So what what I want to say is, I mean, I honor you because it would have been easy for you to go. I've done all the work. You know, like, Yeah, I'm good. And then you go through what you went through. And yet, you've just shown what works. And it's not always like, Oh, you just got to do all this and everything's good. Like, no, no, like, you got to keep you got to keep going. You got to keep moving forward, use that word growth. Like, if you're not growing, you're just going backwards, you're sliding back into a hole. And we've all been there. We've all been in those holes when we we stopped doing the things that got us there, right? Yeah, for sure. For sure you love for an example. You are, like, you just gotta keep going.

Yeah, yeah. And not like there's anything wrong to fix, like, but to me like that there's a level of deliciousness in life like that, that comes from being willing to, to sort of tear yourself apart and, and get the sort of saying to Katie, yesterday, it's like a rubber band effect. You know, I mean, like, you know, if you look at tension in our life, and it's like a rubber band, and, you know, we've got on this side, we've got a level of deliciousness and amazingness in our life. And on this side is uncomfortable soul growth and pain and, and getting rid of all these stories that have been ingrained in us and releasing it all from the body, whatever. And we pull back a little bit, you know, I mean, we want something here. So we have to go through the uncomfortable, right? And it gets, like an uncomfortable that we let go the rubber band, and we get a little bit of reward. Yeah, I mean, and then it's like, Well, that'll do That'll do for me, you know, me, and it's like, well, hang on, what about this? You know what I mean? Like we get, for me anyway, what I found is that, like, I've been forced into these situations where it was like, pulling me back, you know, I mean it and, like, for me with Katie, it's like, I fucking want to love so much. Like, I just want to love her. I want to love myself, I want to love the world. I want to experience all this deliciousness, you know, we're going to have a family together. Like she's amazing mom to my kids. Like, there's so much at stake. Okay, well, let's pull that back. Yeah, I mean, and I think part of the trapeze as humans is like, when we start growing, when we start becoming uncomfortable, you know, we let go of it. And we stop, like you say, we stop doing the things that really challenge us that really force us to give up our beliefs that force us to do the inner healing work that force us to really experience but you know, what our bodies wanting to experience and, and then we let go the rubber band and we get some sort of level of success and comfort. And, you know, whether it be the marriage, whether it be the business, you know, I know for me, I've seen friends who have had success in business. They've done the work, they've grown, they've pushed themselves, they've been uncomfortable. Bang, they've let the rubberband go and they have success in their business. But they stopped pulling. They stopped growing. You know what I mean? And they think they've arrived somewhere. And you know, it's like, the moment you think you've arrived somewhere like there's a law of precession. I don't know if you've ever heard of Buckminster Fuller? Yeah, yeah. And he's he's got the law of precession where the universe will always tap you on track, you know, when you either listen with a feather either slaps you across the face or runs you over with a Mack truck. Yeah. And unfortunately, for me, I found that I did not listen to the feather or the slack.

You know, to the feather, you know?

Yeah, that's the thing. You can't run from it. We were joking about running away from stuff but you can't run because life will have a way of getting you in and the moment you go, I've got this sorted. It's like, I was talking to a mate yesterday about golf. And he's like, you know, I had a really good game, like the best probably the best I've played and I'm like, oh, backlog of this game sorted and goal for life as a way of grabbing your next time your play. And just reminding you is in control

under percent.

Yeah, you also have to remind me of just what you said there about running away from it. There's the someone like I had a great analogy a little while back, and I shared a video of it, about sort of this, this trauma I like, you know, human beings in life, there's two ways to be, you know, you can either be in the storm, right, there's, there's Buffalo, and there's cows. And when a storm comes out in the wild buffalo runs straight out the storm, you know, and the cows run away from the storm. And the reason that the buffalo run to the storm is because they know once they get to the storm, on the other side, there's all this life, you know, like, after the rain, the lands flourish, there's food, it's just beauty, you know, and the peace, you know, and serenity and all that in the cows. They just spoke, they legged, they're so fearful of the trauma and the storm, they run, they run, they run. Now, eventually, they get exhausted, and the storm fucking runs on them anyway.

Exhausted

it's kinda like, you know, like, would you if you ask most human beings, it's like, which would you rather be? And it's like, well, of course, I'd rather be the buffalo. You know, I mean, but really, like most of us, like, I think, anyway, most of us tend to be like the cows, you know, even the people who've done self awareness and whatever, like, we can sometimes be the worst of it, because it's like, the trap is you're now aware, but the awareness is the bogey price. You know what I mean? It's like,

yeah, 100%, like, we just as good at avoiding as anyone else. It's a continual work in progress. And I love how you describe it, you know, it's not like I was broken. It's like, I just wanted to experience more. And it's like, yeah, well, what if you looked at it that way, you're not broken. But you want to enjoy the full joy that love can give you? And that's like, yeah, just it's gonna such shift of focus. So you mentioned that growth is a key value. From everything you've described, I imagine you've got an awesome creative mind, right? Like you got different ideas and that sort of stuff. And they also talked about purpose, right. So I know you're, you're a bit of a crossroads period. And you're looking at what's next for you. If you didn't take away the specifics, what what do you want to see in the world? What do you want to contribute to the world to make it a better place?

Yeah, I think like, there's this new entrepreneurial template, you know, for me, entrepreneurs are just people who solve people's problems for profit. That's cool. You take away the even the profit side of things, like, you know, when we're all looked after, who gives a shit? Like, yeah, abundance, and you want money, and money's beautiful to have, but, you know, at the end of the day, can't take it with you. And once you want to certain enough that then what you need more of it. Like, you can do more with it, for sure. But to me, like, the entrepreneurial template is about, like everyone winning, you know, everyone winning like, and this new Earth that we've sort of, you know, it's sort of been thrown around for a little while now is, you know, like, I believe it's here, you know, I believe it is, it's not some grand awakening, that there's going to be an alien invasion or there's going to be some sort of profit come down, and all of a sudden, everyone's going to have the opportunity to be enlightened, it's actually no, in everyday experiences. You truly living a divine purpose in alignment with Spirit, God, who universe, whatever, whatever it is for you. Like, is there a deeper calling and a connection with humanity? That's, you are living, breathing, share, you know, like, and that stopped, like, you know, like a homeless guy, come ask me for $1.80 I don't know why he asked for dollar 80 Yesterday. He's very specific, you know, you know, I gave me what I said my dog $1.50 for you. So that'll do, you know, you know, but normally, I might ask him his name and just, you know, connect with him and say, you know, you're a good human rights, you know, look after yourself. You know, that doesn't mean I give money all the way to homeless people all the time. But you know, what I mean? Like, it's, it's like, you know, using the cashiers now, you know, we went away simple things, right. Like, we went right to, to Cassie white, okay, way to mount tambourine. And we went away to beautiful, you know, which is retrieved and we went for a walk and I was at the IGA and you know, it's busy around and Paulo's her name and, you know, she's going through Mike, Hey, Paul, busy, busy time of day and she's like, Yeah, it's school time. And I'm like, Well, you've got a bit of an accent. Where's your accent from? You know, it's a great conversation starter. People love talking about themselves. You know, I mean, how many people go through that cash round? Esther and I just like, give me my shit and it's transactional. And, you know, one of the things that has been heartbreaking for me, which I just live inside of now is people are not commodities. You know, I mean, like, you treat people like they're a transaction, then you're a transaction to people, you know, I mean, yeah. And it's just like, you know, like, I go to the gelato shop, and the guys love gelato. And, you know, I'm talking to God, I might hang out, this is your businesses. I love this. I just, I'm not fucking going to coach him. I could, you know, man, and I need to like, I just like how my dad uses your opinion, because the way he just talks that I can recognize a business owner, you know, I mean, oh, my gosh, this is your business, is it? And he's like, Yeah, Mike, how long? Have you been here for five years? And he's like, Yeah, this is my, you know, this is my, I've settled down. And I'm like, yeah, man, it's a beautiful spot, you know, you bring a lot of joy to the place. And, you know, like, what's his name? And, you know, now when I go in there for JATO, I'm using his name. Yeah, I'm with him. He loves it. Right. And it's like, I be the type of customer that I would want to serve. You know what I mean? So it's not like, if we all did that, right, like, you don't have to come up with a way that's going to change the world. You don't I mean, you literally don't, not everyone's designed to do that. Some of us will, you know, I mean, what you're doing here changing the world, you know, you're giving people access to a part of themselves that they, like you say, you know, we were talking about before about your, like your mate who reached out, you know, that, you know, said he's been following you for five years, and you made a profound difference to his life, and you fucking never would have no, I mean, like, it's that sort of stuff, like you're serving the divine purpose, if you like, you know, you're serving a bigger purpose than your own agenda. You know, I mean,

yeah, I do. And the phrase that comes to mind is, you mentioned transactional, we've grown up learning transactional love. Where you do this, you'll get this in return. For sure. You did this bad. Yeah, but you did this bad before. And it's like, what you're describing to me is unconditional. Yeah. Yeah. And when we give unconditionally, then we can be open to receiving unconditionally, that's when, when universal

deliver it right. Katie talks about it all the time in a divine feminine work. Like it's profound, because I was like, I've been around business 20 years, she's taught me more about the feminine business way for months. And I was like, Fuck you, man. There's another way other than driving out sales structure, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, yeah, like, you know, wait, really, when you when you can transform your relationship with yourself and do the real inner healing work, and your divine purpose will come into you. And it's like, you know, get channeled into you or, you know, like, yeah, you'll develop, we've been divinely guided in a way when you're open to receiving it and you're not attached to what it looks like, you don't mean you're not bringing your whatever you think from here, if you're open to here, then you stay inside that that work, and the universe will deliver you abundantly anyway, you know, mainly to deliver you the perfect clients, it will deliver you money, it'll deliver you joy, deliver all these things to you, because you're doing the divine purpose work. You know, I mean, it's not because you're you had to hustle and put out a marketing strategy and sales you don't I mean, it's like, that's what I mean by this old entrepreneurial template of like, it's a transactional, sort of head based, manipulative, marketing, dominance sells, you know, this, give to get, you know, a seat all the time, it fucking pisses me off in the coaching industry, when people be like, look at my life, you want to be like me, or here's some value, but I want something in return. You know, I mean, it's like, I'll share part of you and you don't do this. I love what you do, you know, but like, I see it in coaching, where they, they share vulnerably and then it's like, yeah, if this resonates, you know, come and join my program, because this is where you're gonna learn X Y, Zed, it's like well just share yourself vulnerably just give people the space to be left with what a beautiful we experience and, and, like their own journey like wow, that resonates with me. And you know, thanks so much for sharing versus fuck you. It's like you drew me in because you wanted something from me, you know what I mean? And it's, it just turns people off. Like, you know, if you're a coach out there, you'd probably notice no one you get crickets because people think of it and I think people have you know, this new entrepreneurial template people are hungry for it people are you know, I think the planet is hungry for it. You know, that's why I'm excited about this commodity stuff that I'm doing is it like it's helping a lot of it was a like connecting crypto to currency because a lot of Kryptos based in main coins and pump and dumps and people putting money into a system and if if you put money into assist And that doesn't have any true value. And it goes up in value. And you take money out and become rich and mean someone else has put money in the top and they become poor, old model, you know, mean? I want to do I want to do something and get nothing like do nothing and get something. Yeah. Which means someone else has to do something and get nothing.

Yeah, what if there was a way that we could all get something

100% And we adapt to each other. We all gave each other generously we all, you know, and I think when it's dying out for it, I think people are dying out for it. Like, you know, I think people experience it. I think leaders like yourself and myself, like are sharing ourselves in such a way you know, that it's that it is it's it. It's a profoundly different way of operating life.

Yeah, it is. And we've talked about it here. And the power of the story like, this is why you coming on and telling your story. Like, people, people love to hear that people who have had success have been through their own stuff. Some of the best responses I get is when I talk about this shit going on in my life, like, I run into a fucking tree branch when I'm running. And people are like, Oh, God, it's human. Yeah, yeah. No, I fuck up all the time. Yeah. But that's allows me to go. Okay. Well, someone wasn't quite gelling right there. Yeah, I need to address it. And yeah, the more so again, I only for sharing. So

I think don't know, if you saw my post today. It's like, don't, don't try and get someone to help you who's a guru, like, find a mentor who can honor you and help you empower you to be your own guru like and

power. That's 100%.

There's nothing wrong, you know, there's Yeah.

And I will add on the you talked about the feminine side of business, I will say this that men still like to do. So it's not about not doing stuff. It's just not feeling like you have to keep doing and doing and doing relentlessly and using up all your time to do it's like, I know, when you think you feel like I actually think you put a comment like this the other day? What if it's in alignment for exactly what it is that you want to do? And then to do? Yeah, go go crazy, because that actually feels good. It's so satisfying. Just don't get caught in the trying to push in a direction just for whatever you think you're chasing, because that's a dead end.

Now, for sure. I think so many men deal with this, right? Like we deal with this traditional business structures, you know, you're working hard, you're putting all your value on what you're achieving, you know. And it's very action orientated. And I sort of, I saw, I think before about, like, the balance of manifestation and action, they're not, they're not enemies, you know, what I mean? They work hand in hand, you can't just sit around and manifest all day, you can't just sit around and be like, the universe is going to deliver me and, you know, I'm going to work on myself and do all this inner healing and, you know, all of that, without actually taking aligned action, you know, and you can't just sit, go take in a whole big bunch of actions and always be structure and, you know, blah, blah, blah, if you're not doing the inner work, you know, I mean, we live in, you know, we live in both a spiritual world and a physical world. And I think that's the embodiment journey of, well, you know, in business in particular, like, there's so many people out there so many men, you know, who are successful and they have good strong businesses, and you know, they're good humans, like they are good people, you know, but there's like that really inner fulfillment that's not there when they're not doing something that I know that that was there for me, like I think you said about touching on it before about my inner child stuff. One of the things that come up for me was, like, in my wisdom as a two year old, and the depth of pain that I was experienced when my dad was experiencing his loss of his dad, and I couldn't take it away from him. So I became, and my mom wasn't available to love me in a way that I wanted. Yummy. She's dealing with three kids under six dad's at work 60 hours a week. She doesn't have a car. She's just not available. You know what I mean? Like, I imagined mom like that stressed and having all the trauma go on. And I started competing for my mom's love. That transactional love you're talking about? Like, if I compete, I had to compete for love. I had to compete for love. So as a kid, like I didn't just play soccer. You know, I mean, I was a competitive four year old playing six was six year old soccer. Yeah, I mean, I imagine that right. Like I said, I said to a friend the other day that I was offering some coaching to could you imagine as a parent, right? Saying to your young kids, like for me with Hendrix or Cruz, if I say to them, Hey, here's some painting to do, here's some coloring in to do. And based on how good your coloring is based on how much love you're gonna get, you know.

I mean, but that that was my experience of mice, you know, I mean, had nothing to do with mom had nothing to do with dad, I made that decision, you know,

yeah, that about a year ago on the podcast TV, John O'Sullivan, and he talks about, like, you know, the craziness that goes on on the sideline and coaching and all around this sort of stuff. And, and I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in the in the interview, because it had a profound effect on me. So my young fella was four, four year old playing against six year olds, similar sort of thing, right, like, intense. And then you find out that when when he doesn't want to shake hands with someone after a game, you're like, Well, why is that? And so I started reading this stuff, and I read John's book, and it's like, when, when you praise that equals mum or dad loved me, when there's no praise at equals, mum or dad doesn't love me at a really simple level at that age. But yeah, when we when everyone's cheering and then I score a goal. everyone's cheering when we know when everyone's kind of like, oh, you're okay. Like, don't worry about it. So all they're hearing is, Oh, we lost Mum or Dad Don't love me. So they are literally out there, like playing for love. It's like, it's like, they've actually makes no sense. I've said that to a few parents, they've gone. They've like, almost got a bit of shit like. But this is like, this is the depth of the programming that we've been exposed to that we need to peel back. Otherwise, we're just gonna keep repeating the same patterns.

Yeah, for sure. And sometimes, like it would that rubberband conversation like, this is the uncomfortable conversations, right? Like, it's not? Yeah, it's not what to do. It's not there's nothing wrong, there's nothing like you're a bad parent, because of it's just actually there's more connection with your child. And when you can do the inner work to just release whatever that shit is, you know, like, like, I see it in my kids, you know, and I like, I've seen it since I've started to do the work. I'm more intimate with them. You know, I've got more connection with my kids, because I'm doing the work, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's to me. There's so many gifts from doing that growth work on yourself. But the impact it has for your closest relationships is worth every penny, you you invest in yourself. Yeah. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to mention one other thing. Because I think it's, you'll get this and it's also I think it'll be good sort of, maybe just something for you to ponder that you've been that highly emotional person engaging sensory. And you described it through, you know, when you were going through Lucas's passing, that you just invested in how everyone else is feeling. And then you took it back to that moment of your dad, like you're so worried about, you know, I can't, I can't make him happy. I can't make him it's it's that pattern that so many empaths experience, which is feeling responsible for other people's emotions. So there's this constant needing to make this person happy or, or this person really must be angry at me, I better go fix them are a bit of a bit of make sense that that this is this is the the part of responsibility that we shouldn't be taking, like, how anyone else is feeling is actually not on us. We can create a safe environment for them. We can guide them if they need it. But yeah, like you have to make someone else happy. It's a trap as a parent, your own journey in a relationship. Again, thank you for bringing that to the attention through your story because it's a big one for people to get their head read. Having to think about

Yeah, for sure. My mother, it's programmed into me I said to Katie this morning, like you know, she had some stuff going on for her come up, you know, nothing wrong. That's what we have as human beings, which straight away I'm like, like anxiousness like I need to fix it or I need to take away that you know what I mean? And it Yes.

Never all too well. And, and it's still a different times of challenge, right? Like, yes.

Shouldn't be around you either to to fully experience their own emotions.

And, and if you need any motivation, there's no motivation better than that is that the more you keep being responsible for their stuff, the more you keep them stuck where they are, they'll never be able to grow, and you'll never be able to grow your relationship with them. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, Catch That was a cracker. And may I honor you for sharing the depths of that pain. And then people listening to this, particularly if they've been through anything similar to what you've been through. We'll have got so much out of this. So thank you. I appreciate you sharing them. Appreciate you, man. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Thanks for the opportunity to share and to be seen and to be heard and, you know, to be honored. So, thank you. Welcome, man.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com. You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform