Empowering Your Relationships By Letting Go Of Control with Tanya Cheesman

Ian Hawkins

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfilment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Good day, everyone. And welcome this week's guest Tanya Cheeseman. Tanya, how are you?

Unknown Speaker

Really good. Thanks, Ian. Good.

Ian Hawkins

I always enjoy our chats good to do it in, in this setting to share more of your journey. Yeah, before we get to some of the different things you've experienced in life, I know you have been on quite a journey yourself, and you've overcome so many different things. And now you're helping other women to do the same. So tell us a little bit about that. And why it means so much to you to be able to offer that service.

Unknown Speaker

So, definitely connects all of it connects definitely to my journey and my experiences, particularly in the last 10 to 12 years. And what I have discovered is a real gap, or disconnect with mind, body and heart. At that, certainly when I was feeling that, um, I was kind of out of my body a lot really stuck in my head and my thoughts and, and when I was doing that I wasn't looking after my physical health. And so I started down a pathway of bit more of spiritual growth. And just being a bit more aware, or actually not a bit a lot more aware of my daily practice, what I do on a daily basis, creating daily habits, getting a bit more masterful and mindful about that stuff, and what I do. And then when I, you know, started think about that, and started changing a few things about the way I was operating, particularly friends started noticing a change in me, and then they were interested in what are you doing in it? And I was getting a lot of questions. And so and it was even down to simple things like what what did I start my day with? What was my daily protocol and simple things like I'd start my day with, you know, lemon in hot water or something like that. But by doing that, it would set the tone for the day. And so it really just but as I was becoming more aware of the need for me to do that, as a as a discipline and commitment to self, I also realised that a lot of other women were not doing that as well. And so that's kind of where I've got to, is how can I show other people to make small changes on a daily basis to become more in tune with who they are? And, you know, create steps going forward to where it is I'd rather be. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins

yeah. Love it. It's really interesting. You talk about those daily protocols because it's showing up a lot for me it's like me realising I need to go back and tweak my morning routine and I was hearing one of the football coaches talking about when the morning when the day and I'm like, Oh yeah, actually I could be doing a better job of this and it's so simple. But when we allow ourselves to drift away from doing it, it really can take us off course. And I love how you said that that they've noticed that difference and a lot of it is just the simple daily practices but importantly practice every day yeah

Unknown Speaker

100% And look I'm by no means perfect and I don't expect I ever will be so I definitely have to remind myself and I you know for instance we've just it's just been it's been a long weekend, a bit out of routine waking up in a different bed different house. I got a little bit out of out of my normal routine. And you know, I came out of the back of it feeling a lot more tired than normal. I've got a little bit of a cold so what I find is as soon as I go off track I you know, I noticed things quickly but I also find that my immunity immune system goes down a bit my energy goes down So it's just it's just for me now it's noticing, and just going okay, right, you've got to pick it up again, you can't. I don't think it breaks there for anyone. But, you know, when we go for too long, without, without, without the discipline of what we know, works for us. You know, it's yeah, it's a bit rocky.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah. And you just talked about there, how it shows up for you. And so I'm loved even more about so the women that you're helping, what are you showing up for them? Like, what sort of things are they going through? What are they experiencing, that are making them realise I actually I need to change because I'm sure they don't have the awareness of that point. To know that they've got that mind body, heart does

Unknown Speaker

that and that even the small things can make the difference, the main thing they're experiencing is overwhelm. So it's, it's like, you know, it's like, being the juggler with all the balls in the air at once. And having really high expectations that that can continue happening, and that we not couldn't, can not only get them in the air, but keep them in the air. And it's it's just not possible. It's it's ridiculous expectation that we put on ourselves. And I'm only speaking from a female point of view, being a mother and a partner and a person that's been in a career over overwhelm at, you know, the realisation that you think that we get to that, it's not possible to keep doing all of that stuff. And also maintain healthy mind, body, soul, heart, you just can't do it, it's not possible. So overwhelm comes with feeling tired, sluggish, you know, your metabolism might be down. A lot of women, you know, at the age that I'm looking at, and where they're in their life, or probably hitting things like menopause, or, you know, extra commitments with elderly parents or teenage children. So there's a lot of, you know, feeling tired, overworked, and then I guess at some point is also the realisation that maybe all of those things are, whilst they are commitments and things that we sign up for, might not be all the things that make us actually feel fulfilled, and happy. So we love our families, we love our kids, we might love our job, if we're lucky. But at the end of the day, then those are not the things that are going to make us feel connected to ourself. So that's, that's where I'm going with this. And that's what the journey I've been on is, how do I love all of those things? How do I not make them the most important thing in my life? How do I turn that around to make me the most important thing, but also incorporate all of those other areas?

Ian Hawkins

Yeah. And I know you've come a long way in that space over the last six months, and and that's noticeable. I know, you said people have definitely noticed that as well. So that's awesome. And just from my own experience, family, friends, clients, what I see out there is that what you just described then is happening for so many women particularly you're trying to be everything to everyone and just exhausted.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. And I think the other thing that sneaks up for women, and again, I can only speak for women, so I'm not going to say men don't experiences as well, is that gradually over time, and I've certainly experienced this, we'll had a realisation about this recently is that with all of this, trying to juggle I've also become really good at being a control freak, but not in a really obvious ways. So, you know, I'm one I want to light everything up, I want it to all be good. I want everyone to be happy. I want the days to go smoothly. But in that I've I found that I tightened everything up so much that I was actually not even I wasn't just doing the things I could physically do. I was trying to control everything around me as it was like, orchestrating everything and didn't realise until recently that that was another thing that was exhausting me and that my perception of control was really misconstrued like the title I want to control something the more than the personal the event or the whatever it is, tries to fight back because because it doesn't want to be controlled. So it was like a it was like a fight I was never going to win. And and I think been experimenting lightly with that is just so when I decide to feel safe and it feels okay, nothing's gonna go wrong if I just let go, be it just watching what happens around me like, it's like the natural order of things falls into place, and I didn't have to do anything. So yeah, and I really, really wouldn't I haven't had a chance to to speak to a lot of women about that yet, but I wouldn't be surprised with that. is a big, a big part of of playing this role.

Ian Hawkins

Massively. And as a recovering control freak myself, I can recognise a lot of those things that you just mentioned then Right? is, the harder you try. It's like trying to turn back the tide with a mob, right? It's the harder you try, the less effective you become. It's amazing how often we just when the moment we are not doing this anymore, that everything suddenly turns around, we remove that resistance. We're funny creatures are we humans.

Unknown Speaker

I know who we are, and what you just sit in. Brilliant I, there's a poem that I read was reintroduced a couple of days of cold, she let it go. And all she let go. And it's it's beautiful, but it's about, it's about when you do it, it doesn't have to be a big announcement, you know, you know, you'd have to arrive everybody, you're on your own now. You know, you don't have to yell I've had enough. I'm packing my bags, I'm gone. It's just about it's just a self acceptance of just a release and just sitting in peace and saying, I don't need to do this. You know? And, yeah, it doesn't have to be an announcement. It can just be like this organic thing. And probably to the point where especially the people who you're closest to family or whatever, partners can't even pinpoint what has changed.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah, well,

Unknown Speaker

this, this thing that happens, and everyone's kind of like, because the energy changes, right when when this happens, but no one would be going on. She had something majors just because there was no one said anything. I didn't I didn't say right, you're off the hook. Now. We're taking the reins off, and you're on your own. But I have noticed subtle changes. But yeah, I think yeah, it's very interesting.

Ian Hawkins

It is the first thing that comes to mind is at first, it feels like your whole worlds caving in. Because suddenly the people in your world who are used to you controlling, having, not having they're able to do things on their own. And then they are able to discover different things that they needed addressing. So it's almost like everything, you get a flood of everything coming at once. Right, right. And then party is like, maybe I need to jump back in and control this control ourselves out of here. Right. But it's been able to hold our nerve through that which is, which is I know you've experienced this yourself. So tell us a little bit how. So letting go of control is one thing. But then how do we actually navigate some of the challenges that pop up as we as we go through that journey?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, that's been. Yeah, I've spent a bit of time trying to define what that is, I think and, of course, in my head a little bit, but so letting go of control is also letting go of boundaries and routines and responsibility. And I've been trying to look at trying to navigate through the fine line that that is, especially as a parent, so you know, our kids, especially teenagers are yearning for independence, they want to get out there, but they still need us. They need us for all sorts of things. And so yeah, it's it's kind of a like, well, how much free range have I give? Before I really need to say, well, actually, I am a parent, and you can't do that. So a lot of it for me has just been it's trial and error. Like and I think the thing is that I'm willing to learn, and I don't, I'm not. I'm no longer scared of making mistakes. Which, ironically, is as a primary school teacher, I was always encouraging children just to have a go have a go have a go, I have, what's the worst thing can happen, you can get it wrong. And then you try again, or you don't get it wrong. You just It doesn't suit it just doesn't work. Or, you know, yeah, I need to try again. So that's where I've been there every single day. Like I do not, I don't sit on my laurels and go oh, yeah, now life's perfect. Because I know every day is gonna have a challenge. And I don't enjoy all of them. I really don't.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah, we're talking about this before we jumped on, right? It's like, Yeah, but first when you start changing things, and then something works. You're like, I've got life sorted. It's all good. And it's that moment. When you walk around the corner, metaphorically and all hell breaks loose. I I love how you've described that because it's exactly what it's like. It's like, don't do whatever you need to do for yourself so that you can make everything blissful all baton because that's not how it works. It's just continuing to move forward and go, Oh, okay, well, what's the next thing, and because when you come from that perspective, then you get so much better at dealing with it in a calm way. And that's where that level of fulfilment that they can only come when we're growing like that

Unknown Speaker

100%. And you know what I love, like Abraham Hicks, I always I will often go back to her description of life as showing us contrast, and the contrast meaning the things that make us feel uncomfortable, but the whole growth and the journey is about how we navigate through that. How smoothie, can we navigate through that, and it's, it's about our reactions, and what we're willing to take on board. And we're willing to own. And for me, it's been, because I'm so aware of that stuff. Now, it's my duty to do that I can't just go, Oh, that was shit, that made me feel bad, I'm just gonna bury that down and pretend to eat a doughnut or perform a 110 Didn't happen. I can't do that anymore. Because I know that there's nothing bad that's going to happen by addressing it, that there's, you know, the lions not going to be released from the cage. And, you know, it's, it's all going to be okay. And it's, and I guess this comes from, from me now working as a healer, as well, as a coach, and whatever it is, I have to do that work. It's my obligation. But I love that I now know that there's nothing that's scary, you know, that it's safe to do it, that letting it out? Nothing, there's nothing bad's gonna happen. Yeah, you know, it's usually that stuff is received with love. And that's what comes back.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah, what I'm drawn to there is whether you're someone who's guiding other people, from a professional standpoint, or just as a parent, or as a partner, coming from that same position, right is like, I know, I have to do this for the betterment of myself, and for those important relationships, and when we come from that angle, is so much easier to find the discipline and the and the strength to be able to navigate whatever is thrown at us. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

And it 100%. And, and also, it also brings us to, to a much lovely, lovely, a place of calm. So, you know, the main six months ago was picking picking looking for the things that were wrong. Not, you know, yeah. Not recognising that those are things I also possess, not wanting to own that. And it doesn't mean to say that I think anyone around me is perfect, either. But I just, I've just switched from looking at the negative stuff all the time. And, you know, thinking that how that impacted me all the time, rather than going well, if I just change my Outlook, except those things work on those. And it actually encouraged to not only come in, maybe in everyone else, and I think they're still I think they are still a bit shell shocked with the change. It's like, they'll walk around, I'll get a question. And I'll just say, I'll give an answer. There'll be this look of, oh, my gosh, that's not what I expected.

Ian Hawkins

But they do they get used to it. And they enjoy it. Yeah, you might even get some praise from your children, which is outrageous, but it's possible.

Unknown Speaker

I get that I did get that the other day I had my 16 year old said to me, Mum, you do know that when I have children one day, I'm going to be ringing you all the time, because there's so much I'm not going to know what to do. And I need your help. Wow. You know, that was that was a real that is a compliment.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah, massive. That is so good. And being their role model is important. And at the moment, I'm going through this with my 18 year old now my mum would always say if you need picking up no matter where you are, what time, like you call just passing on that same message. It's a simple thing. But I know how beneficial that was to me. And sometimes my friends where they would be literally gonna call your mom if you know you can't do like, you know, when you're watching your children then go out and you're letting go and then letting them have that space. You're still like you mentioned before you still want to be a parent and give them whatever you can to help them with their choices, right? Yes. Awesome. So you don't just go from being a teacher and then deciding I'm going to shift my careers without going through challenges right So in no particular order, what what was some of those moments, so maybe one of them you can pinpoint as being more impactful than the others that that really stopped you in your tracks and changed how you saw the world.

Unknown Speaker

Some of it crept up upon me over time. I think my a biggie, a biggie for me was, I guess it's maybe 12 years ago when I separated from the father of my children. And I was at the time I was doing some tape, though a little, I've gone back to teaching, and we just moved back from England. Maybe two years prior. And it really, I guess, I guess what it did was really changed my perspective on what I could count on myself to do. And what I could trust myself to do. I won't go into the juicy details of the whole scenario. But it was a it was a time when I Oh, and I'd also started a business then. So I dabbled in starting business from home and kids were little whatever. And I, I just knew something in me, I just knew I needed to move, I needed to move out, I needed to get out I needed to change location, everything. And found something in me that I didn't know I had. And I think I I like to think that I've always been a bit spiritual in touch with my intuition. But I was just asking for things to have to fall into place. And they were it was just, I was getting signs left, right and centre, that it wasn't a bad choice. Everything went smoothly. And I guess I guess then that was my first real conscious experience of being a wife, a mother, a, I was teaching I was, you know, doing all these things, and going, Oh, my God, like, I've got all these roles to play. And when, uh, when do I really sit with that, and what were what I really like to see myself. When all the messes cleared, it was it was literally like a bomb had gone off. And it took about six months to get back into a place of feeling, you know, sent again, basically. And another thing, quite a poignant thing that happened at that time was I've always placed a lot of importance on my relationship with my family, my parents. And I remember at that time I had, I was dreading it. I was 40 years old, and I had to go and have lunch with my mom or dad and make an announcement. And I just started with an apology. And I said, I'm really sorry, I've got to tell you that this this marriage can't can't go on. And my mother just think she grabbed me by the wrist. No, no, not aggressively. But Carly, she grabbed me by the wrist. And she put her other finger up. She said, Don't you ever apologise for, for what you need to do what you feel you need to do. And it was a really emotional moment for all three of us. I think Dad was struggling from a male point of view because he was being empathic towards my ex and he was he was feeling what he must be feeling. And then I didn't fit that from Mum, but mum, she just was like she completely understood. And from that moment, I saw oh my god, if it was a bit like a got approval, but it was more that absolute display of unconditional love that it didn't matter that that what that's what was happening. And it's not like I was mollycoddled after that they didn't come to my rescue at all. Like, it was my journey, but I knew they were always there. And she really, that was a good lesson for me as a mother.

Ian Hawkins

What a powerful statement and it's not the first time someone on this podcast has relayed some words of wisdom from their mother at a time when they were going through the most difficult times. It's is that hardwired? Do you think? Is it a hardwired maternal instinct to say exactly what is needed?

Unknown Speaker

I think so. I, I've, it must be, it just must be because I know now especially with teenagers that I mean, they can do things that really piss me off or that I don't approve of or whatever, but it doesn't stop my love for them. And it doesn't, you know, I'll never I'll never judge them or question their choices if they come to me and ask for advice or an opinion or sometimes they won't sometimes I might just give it but It doesn't cut that tie. It does. Yeah. And I mean, I do imagine how, you know, there are a lot of people that have experienced some real trauma and heartache. And I do wonder how that works for them

Ian Hawkins

in that. You mentioned the unconditional love from parents. I know from my own experience, and helping other people with this very same subject is one of the places that that love can be quite conditional, almost transactional, is in our close relationships. So as you've come through a divorce, like is that something that you were aware of? Is it something that played out afterwards? Was it was it part of you then realising that your own relationship yourself needed improving like that, that concept of unconditional love? How did that play out through the whole thing getting separated and divorced?

Unknown Speaker

That that came to me quite a few years later, okay, because I just I really got busy at the time, with, mainly with my kids and working. And, you know, when they're little, they're really all consuming. And they're very delightful. And so it was kind of like, I mean, what I guess it just all happened as it needed to, but it was, it wasn't until maybe 2016. So maybe six years ago that I started going down some pretty heavy duty lines of personal development, core stuff, where I got shown, for the first time through process and experience that every single person that comes in front of me is reflecting me in in their way. And that, that that is my responsibility to own the things that I'm not attracted to, as well as the things that I am that, that I can't you know, if I love someone for something, the class that here's the classic, right? So when when you're parenting your child, and maybe you've had an argument, the parents have had an argument or whatever, and oh, she's just like you, you know, she's, she just takes off to you. But it's usually meant in quite a negative your attributes at that moment in time of what they're seeing in the child, and they're saying it and vice versa. And we all do it. We all I guess that's why we are connected to our kids, because you know that our digital, because we were drawn to every aspect of them positive and then

Ian Hawkins

yeah, 100% and they take so much from what our own behaviour rather than what we tell them, so they also Mirror mirror back to us all of our perceived failings and insecurities as well.

Unknown Speaker

You can't get away with any of that at all.

Ian Hawkins

Not at all. I'm drawn to

Unknown Speaker

oh, sorry, sorry. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins

I was gonna say Georgia one in particular when I was playing Barbie in the in the doll's house with my daughter, and she said, Oh, Bobby's gonna have a party. And I went, Okay, cool. She goes, we're going to get there because because Barbie has been Barbie. We're going to get a bid that because you can't have a party without beer. And that was one of those moments of like, oh, wow, like she's three and yesterday. Which is right, but they like, really, we want to hear from you.

Unknown Speaker

Well, I had one of my one of mine said a similar thing and say, Why? Why is it you always hear mums say, Oh, honey to wine. Really hope I've never said that. I mean, I'm, maybe I have I do make a point of not saying that stuff. But but they do. They pick up on that stuff.

Ian Hawkins

We joke, we joke. But it's just those two examples just shine a light on how influential we are. And not just from a young age like this. They're forever watching as they go through their next level of growth, about how we're dealing with things how we're behaving. So it's never too late. Like, I remember learning, you know, you hear about are those first six years of our children's life are just so important. And they're like sponges, and so much of their behaviour is is then set for their life and then going oh my god, like I can't roll that back now like what? I've broken my children and then later learning that yeah, there's there's an element of truth to that. But all behaviours can be changed. And it's also like, they will be able to overcome those, whatever challenges they experienced through that. And similar to the journey we're both on isn't be able to be a guiding light for others. The important thing is to be able to show them how to come out the other side by doing it ourselves more than trying to control them into taking the path we think they should take. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, and it's not it's not just our responsibility. It's Like, it's that it takes a village to raise a child. So, you know, if at some point you're not capable of giving the child what they need, they're definitely going to be getting it from somewhere else, whether it's their mom, a family friend, and other relative, an older sibling, that we're never without our lessons, we're never without what it is we need in any given moment. And that was, that's another thing I have the comfort of knowing that also lets us off the hook, you know, in a way, because like, I don't have to be there at every minute, I don't have to have every answer. I don't have to have every solution. Other people can do that. That's why we're all here. Right?

Ian Hawkins

He will say, we'll say, you mentioned there something that I know to be true of grief. And that is, you went through the separation. But then you got busy with life. And so often that happens to people that have this major event in their life. And they may have a realisation or not. They may have a desire to change for things to be better, whatever it is. But then we don't necessarily know what to do with it next. And then there's this moment of drifting for me was about six years of like, well, yeah, a one change. I don't know how. But then what I know is that there's usually another moment that inspires that change. So you said you got into learning more about personal growth, but was there a moment? And if so, what what played out that had you going actually I need to take more affirmative action here.

Unknown Speaker

Affirmative action as as far as kind of more of the path that I'm on right now. You mean Yeah. So

Ian Hawkins

was there a look at another setback moment that had you gone? Oh, okay. This is like so for me example, for example. We like it was like the, the global financial crisis, it's and I'm hearing about people not being able to retire because they're, they like investments have crashed, and like our superannuation here in Australia was like, what? That can't be? Well, he can't be just at the mercy of external factors. So that for me, that was my motivation to go. Okay. I need to actually get on with things here.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I had a, I have a few things happen before that whole event. But afterwards, it was just, and I feel like everything played out. Now I look back on it, it doesn't seem as messy as it felt like at the time. Yeah. But I it's just, it's just triggered in me that I actually got, I actually got sent on a different pathway without really being aware that that was happening, I went on a tangent in my career. And so I was, I was teaching and somehow I got drawn to working with a friend who was working in a behaviour centre. And so she worked with children with who had a lot of trauma and grief in their background. And so basically went from kind of the cushy, and ladies and suburbs, easy. It was never hard for me being a teacher, it's been because something I'm good at. So I found myself in these centres and seeing actual real trauma as opposed to, I mean, at that point. And still now I don't think my kids have really ever experienced. And I wasn't sure why I got pushed down that path. But I went with it, it felt right. And I was late, I was on a steep learning curve. But where it got me was not where I had planned to be, I might add, but I was recognised as working quite well with these kids and having a real compassionate approach to helping them find the best part of themselves, and not just concentrating on all of the so called disabilities or learning difficulties or whatever. And then not only that, and this is the interesting part is that I started connecting a lot with the female role model in their family. And so, yeah, so it would either be the mum and older sister or grandmother, whoever was the main, I guess, female mentor, or person giving the care were the ones that I connected with. And then I was really interested in working, working with them with I mean, you know, there was some messy stuff that I experienced, you know, as far as trauma was concerned. And then I think I was able to relate that to some of my experiences, and probably was a form of therapy for me to, you know, work that work out through my own system, which I had to do every day because it Every day was a new day, and sometimes really full on working with these kids.

Ian Hawkins

What did you learn? What did you learn about yourself through that process from helping them with these traumatic events, and also that connection to the female role model

Unknown Speaker

that our experiences don't. I guess our experiences don't make us who we are they, they mould us in a certain way. But the essential part of who we are is always the same. And that everyone no matter what, no matter what their environment is, or the people they have around them is that everyone is actually really seeking the same thing, which is, everyone is everyone just wants to be held, loved, supported, met, they want to feel valued. No one really likes to have chaos. I mean, you know, it's, it happens for many, many, many reasons. So I think I recognise I definitely recognise that in me. And, yeah, once I've had all of that stuff back, that that's all I really wanted as well, you know. And I, you know, I felt really, I actually felt more complete, helping the families than I did, just being the classroom teacher. And then eventually, I wasn't a teacher anymore, I was actually just a support. And not just that I was a support person for that. In that role,

Ian Hawkins

yeah. Which, to me, just, it's just a natural progression to what you're doing now, is going straight to the source, right, dealing directly with the parent, which will have a far bigger impact. And I love that. Now, because the divorce was such a big part of your story, and I know other not just women, women and men who have been through divorce will be able to relate to a lot of this. So what challenges have you experienced with parenting? And how have you overcome them? And also with finding love again? And then all of the challenges that I'm sure comes with that as well?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, that's definitely been that's definitely been a work in progress. And it never won't be. But what I what I do seek solace in as well as that I've got plenty of friends who have, you know, a parenting their children together, they're having the same. No one escapes, no one escapes, you know, issues or problems or things. That's it. So I kind of got off track with the question and look at it, it's all had its ups and downs. But what I've discovered more about myself is, and again, it comes back to control is that when I let other people be involved and rejoin what they feel they need to know because innately, like I'm a person that hates being told what to do, which is

Ian Hawkins

ironic, most of us are,

Unknown Speaker

vice versa. And historically, I don't respond really well to being told what to do. And it can be anything about you know, it can be anything. I like to think I respond better now. But it's made me realise that everyone, you know, my kids, their dad, my partner, that his kids, everyone needs to find their own way. And, you know, it takes me back to a poem we use when our kids were born that way. What's his name? Khalil Gibran, our children are not our children, that we're here to guide them, but they are they're the arrows that we shoot from the bone. And that and that, and we're not always it's not always going to be a straight shot. It's going to be sometimes it's going to be off target. But it's not about being on target the whole time. That's not life. So yeah, yeah, it I think it's just for me has been just chilling out, letting people get on with what they feel is right for them.

Unknown Speaker

And giving up that driver's seat, you know, allowing them to interact in the ways that they need to

Unknown Speaker

develop their relationships between and I worked that out many, many years ago. The relationship my kids have with their dad or with my mom and dad, none of my business. It's none of my business. So people get so involved I think, and to their detriment in the end. But yeah, yeah,

Ian Hawkins

create creates a divide between And you and the other person and you and your children, because it's just another form of control. Right?

Unknown Speaker

It is. But you know, what I believe that comes back to again, it comes back to fear and feeling like, I'll just say it from if it was my perspective that I'm not enough that what if you discover that I'm not perfect? What if you discover that I've got trauma from my past or of anger from my past? Or that I haven't always, you know, been a model citizen, you know, it all comes back to a point of view as trying to control relationships, because we perceive that there's stuff about us that we don't want them to know. But the reality is, people don't even notice that stuff. Like

Ian Hawkins

they're too busy to, to consumed with their own stuff. That's exactly the same right?

Unknown Speaker

There. I think so. So part of the work that I'm really, really passionate about is actually truly knowing who who you are valuing yourself and living by that not about the external, not about what everyone else thinks not about what everyone else expects, what do I expect from me? What what do I know is the best, the best version of myself? And again, it's not being perfect. I'm not talking about perfection. No, not at all. Not at all.

Ian Hawkins

I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this too. But you've only have to take someone else through a process, and then be going into this, this and this. And then to have the realisation that, oh, shit. I shouldn't be listening to this, right? It happens with monotonous regularity, as someone who's in character, or a guy.

Unknown Speaker

You've got the perfect job for being mirrored back to what you need to work on flat sets. Me to my mash, it always comes back. And then you're normally comes up a day or two before and something will come in and I have a feeling or a thought or a reaction. I'm like, Yeah, where did that come from? And then I went, and then I realised I Okay, I need to work on that now. Before. Before I face to face with the client. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins

yeah. But and sometimes it takes three or four or 10 people presenting with the same thing before you go. Now think tell a lot of people this lately. Maybe you should be paying more attention. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's probably as an important messages we could share today is that you mentioned it earlier, we still go through our staff, we still have our challenges. It's not about trying to be perfect. It is, to my mind, it's like just continuing to build more and more tools and skills, and the ability to navigate these moments the best way we can, which just that just makes all the difference. Yep. Yeah. Now, you mentioned you mentioned your parents before, and like having to have that tough conversation. You also said to me, there was a couple of sort of, like, be moments earlier in your life, that you probably hadn't looked at it until just coming to the surface recently. The impact of that for your parents, right. And as we're both parents now, and many of the people listening will be the same, like when you're a parent, and your child goes through something really difficult, like, all consuming. So two parts of this, like, actually, it's probably four parts, because there's two different incidents, but I'll let you let you share it how you want to talking about those incidents, the impact for you, and then and then the light of realisation of how that impacted your parents at a deeper level than you could have imagined.

Unknown Speaker

So the first one, I only I'm not going to say I remembered recently, I've it's always been in my memory, but was when I was maybe seven or eight years old. And dad was a marathon runner, and he would go on big training runs. And he started introducing my sister who's 18 months younger than me, and, you know, we were always outdoorsy, we were always going to be fit sporty kids, right? It's just how we were going to we were brought up. But he took us on this big run. And funnily at his 80th Last year, my sister and I did a joint speech and we were reminiscing about some funny things and we joked about this scenario, we're talking and said, Oh, and Dad, Dad was really good at instilling strength and ambition and discipline and belief in ourselves that we could do anything and he was there's no doubt about it and we're girls and we really appreciate that. That that we were given that that you don't need to rely on anyone else to be successful. When it when you need to use your body to do it. You know, for sport, like you can push yourself some hope But then I was on this retreat a few weeks ago, and this came up again, this exact scenario. And suddenly I was back in that moment and I, on this run, I'd had an asthma attack, I got all emotional, I'd fallen over and scraped my knee, I had, you know, those scrapes through the gravel was inside, inside the cup. And then I couldn't run sitting down and my sister who was younger than me, was leant down next to with her arm around me crying, because she was upset and devastated standing there going, I could see he didn't know what to do, they just don't worry, I will come up with we've got to keep going, well, breathe, lean, lean over your knees and breathe. And, you know, I feel like he pulled a paper bag out from somewhere, you know, the old fashioned when you having aspirin. But I can't remember that. But the main, the main part of it was, now I can look at it what it gave me. And, and I know, that's where that's probably the first time I was in a, in a place where it gave me the ability to know I can do anything because I did have to get up and keep running. I did have to push myself. But also, it also recently showed me that from dad's perspective, he's carried that as maybe I pushed her too much, maybe he was he was carrying some feelings of guilt or regret that he didn't sit down next to me put his arm around me and give me 20 minutes on the side of the road. And I can see that that's where he was that he was still in that mode of you know, she, it was okay for her to cry, it was okay for her to be sad. And then for my sister who from that moment had taken on the role of I need to make sure my sisters Okay, I need to I need to know she's alright, because dad can't do that right now. So that's my job. And then from that, I could see those patterns the whole way through. Like how that's played out numerous times, you

Ian Hawkins

know, and it's a great place to just pause and for everyone listening to just let that sink in. Like so often people are scared of what they might find if they start digging 99.9999% of the stuff we have been going on and the patterns are from moments like this, which are in the bigger picture insignificant and yet you described the three different paths that you all took as a result of that moment your your dad feeling maybe guilty later, your sister then adopting that role, you are adopting a role which then plays out for the next however many years until it comes to the surface again and and to be able to talk about it and then move past that is just so powerful changes your whole life, right.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, and I've talked to them both about it since I found that that we've we've got good communication and good relationships and and you brought up another one, so jumped to the next event, which was like 27 years later, or something. I was 27 and earlier that year, I'd been in a horrific car accident with a girlfriend. terrible car accident. We've been driving as she was driving us in the passenger seat, but we've been driving at speed and she was overtaking and we were another car came into us anyway, we rolled, I don't know it was 1214 times over, over and on and on. And the car was completely written off. And at the point of him, I remember I still remember the rolling as we went off the road and I was like, holy shit we're about to roll off the road this isn't happening and then just being knocked out. I came out of reasonably unscathed but I do you remember being in the emergency and somehow that got hold. This is way before you know, mobile 5g actually had to track people down. And they tracked down mum and dad and they came into the emergency at the a&e and I remember hearing mums where she came in and someone pointed to me lying on a gurney. That's not my daughter. So she didn't recognise me because of the whatever.

Ian Hawkins

Oh well.

Unknown Speaker

Anyway, six months after, and I clearly recovered from that. But six months later, we were in a on a family trip in Tassie. And we were doing hiking and stuff and I was still having pain in my knee because my car accident injury was my knee. But we're doing all these walks and persisting with it and my younger brother was walking he was always helping me around and giving me a stick and pulling me up on boulders and stuff because I was in pain the whole time. And then on one of the days we did this whitewater rafting trip. We were the four of us, my siblings and I were in the RAF with some other people anyway The Raft went over some falls. And we don't know what the term is, but we've been up on a rock. And always I've always tried to make sure everyone else is okay. But in that instant, I realised I didn't have anything to hold on to. And so everyone clamming up in the rock and the last one, no paddle no nothing. So I was in the rapids taking getting taken down the rapids,

Ian Hawkins

and one side of the boat

Unknown Speaker

outside of the boat, and it was it was great, whatever rapids are pretty full on and I did recall, immediately remembered what they'd said, if you get taken down the rapids, you need to be in this position. I was doing that. But I got taken down one fall and, well, Whirlpool, I was taken down to the bottom of the in in the river, and I couldn't get back up shit. And like, I'm a really strong swimmer, and I'm underwater going, nah, this is not happening. There is no way I'm drowning. Not my time, and I'm not going like this. And then I got spat back up and slammed into rocks, love, you know, still nursing some injuries from the Catholics. Anyway. Eventually, I had a line throw to me and I was pulled in and straightaway who's on the side of the bank, my sister in hysterics. so concerned about my well being I knew I was okay, because I was out through water. He didn't. And then I had a hissy fit and said, Well, I'm not paddling anymore. In fact, I'm not getting back in the boat. But anyway, we made our way back down. And then Sadad recalled this just on the weekend, he said, Oh, your mother and I said, I'll never forget, it was standing on that bridge watching for all the excited happy faces to come down in the rafts. And there was this miserable person sitting on the floor and one of them like this. And he actually got emotional because he realised that I actually did have a pretty shoot. And it brought back all the trauma from the other things where I've always been strong and capable. Anyway, that was that. So that was the second sort of massive thing in that year. And we did find out in the end that my leg still had a fracture in it, which was why it was so and it hadn't been discovered. So I've been doing all of that without and I've got pins in it now. But at the time, I was pushing myself as I always did, just kept going

Ian Hawkins

back to that little girl that had had grabbed them getting pushed along. Yeah, fascinating. Yeah. No. Keep going.

Unknown Speaker

Oh, no. So so it was like, so it was just that scenario playing again, right? That that rafting thing, 27 years after the first one where dad was feeling guilty. He had encouraged me to go heap but he wanted me to, you know, you're not going to he didn't want to do the poor me thing or, you know, poor you that, that that wouldn't have helped me. So he was still being strong and stoic and you know, and then my sister who just absolutely gone to pieces, she, she couldn't even speak she was so upset that I had experienced that. I think we've moved past all of that now. But yeah, if

Ian Hawkins

it's part of the moving past is actually having conversations about these things. So that's, oh, yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So knowing what you know, now, which is these different moments like that, in our life, usually showing us something that we're missing? Like, have you made sense of that, like, two significant accidents within a short period of time? Was there something at the time that in your life that you weren't realising and, and this was life trying to get your attention?

Unknown Speaker

The first one, there was a bit of irony in the accident. My friend who was driving was at uni studying to be an architect, interior designer. And her had got caught in the steering wheel. And so she had compound fracture and her whole around was, she was right handed. And then and I was at uni, studying primary teaching, but majoring in, in physical education. And then my my knee was totally damaged. So I was so we both had to quickly really change course of what our focus was on as far as our chosen path at the time. So I do believe I do believe that happened for a reason. Maybe I wouldn't have ended up working with you know, trauma, children with behaviour and their families and stuff if I had because let's face it, have a PE teaching job is fairly cushy. I feel would have been

Ian Hawkins

that's what that's why I studied at uni, because was like, This is gonna be so crusty.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I am so many people I knew at the time ended up in eastern states, you know, probably private schools, whatever. But they've been there for their help. They've been there for their whole lives, you know, and they're just easy, but it wasn't meant for me so that that changed my my attention and and where I was going the raft while I'm not sure I just have never been rafting against hunters not going to do it. I definitely don't need to seek. Yeah, I'm not an adventurer like that anymore. That really stopped me from having to do dangerous things to

Ian Hawkins

have not a horse you need to get back on.

Unknown Speaker

And I won't I won't. I don't need to.

Ian Hawkins

That's that's like me and Hudson, like parachuting? I have no intention or need each other. Yeah. Piggly Wiggly here aeroplane. You mentioned before you? Did you say one or both your children were born in the UK?

Unknown Speaker

Oh, one? One? Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins

So what took you to the UK originally?

Unknown Speaker

Well, I'd finished my tip, because with all the mess with accidents and stuff, my teaching degree took a little bit longer to complete. And I was born in England, actually myself. So I'd already had a stint back there when I had left school working as a nanny and stuff. So I had come back here and finished my degree. And I just I just thought, well, I don't know, I don't even know why I'm I think I saw an ad in the paper actually, for teaching a teaching agency who were looking for qualified teachers in London. So I packed up and went, I just within six months. I in fact, I had a job interview before I left with the head teacher, and he said, We want you. So get over here. So then I was I was there for eight years. And loved it loved working, teaching over there. That's cool. Really,

Ian Hawkins

yeah. And I think back to my experience travelling there was part of me because I wanted to go and see sporting events, like around different parts of the world. And I did. But what I've realised and reflection is part of me was like running away from responsibility and the next part of my life, which like, I had no idea what that look like. And travel is amazing, because it allows you to learn some different things. But it certainly doesn't solve that problem, right? Like you try and run away from it. So it was an element of that for you. Like we you,

Unknown Speaker

there possibly was a lot of my friends were settling down, settling down. And it felt like there was an expectation around I was 28 at the time. And there was definitely an expectation that and I think at that time as well. I was really like, well, what what is this? You know, I had relationships. But what is this love thing? Not? How do you know when it's someone that you're supposed to settle down with and have children with? And I was really, like, really not convinced that I had experienced that. And yeah, so there was an element that I've made that didn't want to have to have any sort of commitment to that yet.

Ian Hawkins

And the and the irony of that that's exactly where you found a partner.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, he so he was working at the school. I mean, it took a couple of years for that to happen. But yeah, he was working at that school that I first got employed at and then yeah, and then we bought a house. Not in London in Essex, we bought a house and then I was working in a village school and then, you know, then I was, you know, had Eliza, it was happening quite quickly.

Ian Hawkins

Was that the motivation to come home then like having having a child? Or was it just

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, yeah, I think it was because we, we were, I mean, we had a we had a lovely house, but we were gonna have to upgrade, like, bedrooms and stuff. And we were looking around and then looking at the areas that we could afford to live in and stuff and just thought this is this is just not not how we want our kids to grow up. So it seemed logical to come back here. And I was pregnant again when we got back here so yeah, did some travel on the way and packed everything up in a container and yeah, relocated. There was a very exciting though it was it felt it felt right. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins

Awesome. So if you've been on this Incredible Journey, be setbacks, but also equally be realisations and in changes and coming out the other side and now passionately helping other women to help them guide through the challenges pick from your own experience. What's one thing that you could share with anyone listening that maybe is at that point where they're like, I know I need to be able to let go, I know I need to have I hadn't I am tired, overworked overwhelmed, what what's, what's one place, they can start to get them back on a track and get them in a place where they can move forward to some other way of living?

Unknown Speaker

What What I do know for certain is that the answers are never on the outside, the answers are always within us. And searching for something out there is always going to be a fruitless search, because we get the feel good for short periods of time, where, you know, we and I did this for years and years and years and years. And I think the only well, not the only, but when I came to realise that the love I'm searching for is innately, what I have for myself first is what freed me to be to have the full expression of what relationships with other people. And the first step for that would be meditation. To start to come to come back into the body to stop the stop the mind, which is which is, obviously we need but gets in the way, it definitely gets in the way I know it does. So if we can just stop and learn to meditate in whatever way suits, as you know, there are so many ways to meditate. Yeah, even if it's for five minutes, just for five minutes every morning, and just have that sense of knowing that we are all we need, that everything we need to know is already here. And the love we're searching for starts with us, it doesn't start from getting it from another person. Yeah, well

Ian Hawkins

said. And linked back to something that you mentioned earlier, when you were talking about learning like who you are. And at that point where you'd been through a relationship, as you know, like it, whether it's career or a relationship, or as a parent, we identify as those things, which takes us away from really being able to identify who we are. Yeah. So now that you've been over that process, and I'm sure there'd be more things to continue to unfold for exactly who you are. Because that's that's the journey. What have you worked? What have you discovered about yourself? More than likely, it's always been there. But that certainly you now have around who you are?

Unknown Speaker

Well, I remember being I think, maybe 13. And I had this thing for a while where I would just sit and look at myself in the mirror, look, stare myself in the island go, who are you? Who are you? Who are you? And then I say, Where am I? Who am I? Who am I? And now I know the only thing I need to say is I am Tanya, I am who I feel I am in here. And I don't need to be anything more than that. And then it's I think that's it. No, I recently answered that for my 13 year old self a little while ago, I didn't I didn't need to do all the searching but obviously I did to come to come back to it. You know? We are just who we feel we are.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah, it's all those external judgments and, and pressure and voices that we allow ourselves to be influenced by which take us away from that, but ultimately, it can be that simple.

Unknown Speaker

And the only way I found that was in meditation. Well the first day because even when I say I'm telling you I'm not my name either. So I mean it goes a lot deeper than that, but that's who I identify as pain.

Ian Hawkins

Yeah. I love that and it's a challenge when people ask us to explain our tell us a little bit about yourself. And we generally go where we go from there and we talk about the different aspects of our lives but the more we can as individuals tune into the explain to people through our own stories about who we are and and how we feel about ourselves like

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, because we identify ourselves with with everything else. It's me and you, it's me, and it's me and the dog, it's me and my house, it's me. And this, it's always us with something else. You know, and we don't have to be an identity that's related to anything. We just need to be that for us, because innately Well, I mean, we are all here. I love this. But we are all one. I do understand what that is now, because we're made up of the same stuff. So if we can just be what we need to be for us, we've already been that for everyone else. That's my job as a healer like it. I know, I can't if I recognise that I have to fix the me and then I'm doing it for everyone. Yes, because we've all got that stuff.

Ian Hawkins

And if anyone can take anything from this conversation, that's what you just described, there is like you can see all of these external things going on in your world. The biggest impact you can have is not by going and trying to change the world, whether it's one of these big worldly issues at the moment. It's like, what was triggered within you? What is what is it about you that you need to know more of? Because when you do that, that just ripples out and allow space for everyone else to do the same. So I love that, Sharon, thank you so much for highlighting that. Yeah, we'll drop the your links in the in the show notes. Tanya, but is there? Is there a specific place you would like people to go to find out more about you.

Unknown Speaker

I think that the I'm getting my LinkedIn up and running as well. But for now, definitely Facebook Messenger or Instagram, which are in the links. And I'm working on working on a landing page, or website now as well. But yeah, at the moment, people are just connecting with me on Messenger mainly. And then when the new stuff happens, I'll be putting that up as well. So those links will be easy to find.

Ian Hawkins

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. Like I said, You're welcome. I always enjoy our chats. It's funny, we've had many of these conversations, but I learned a fair bit today which, to me, that's one of the absolute gifts of being able to come on and share our story because people get something from it. I get something from it, you get something from it, and everyone else listening does too. So thank you for being so open and sharing your story.

Unknown Speaker

No problem. Thank you.

Ian Hawkins

You're welcome. Speak to you soon, Atlanta. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform