The Tenderness of Being Human with Chris Dierkes | 004

I want to start this episode as even just taking a moment to notice my nervousness. Again, because it is the experiential podcast, I am practicing what I teach, which is pausing and noticing what I'm experiencing. And yeah, it's funny how there's a fair amount of nervousness because I don't actually get nervous that often. And yeah, I'm noticing my heart beating a fair amount and the sense of, yeah, with me noticing it, I just take a breath, and I feel myself settling a little bit. And I mean, I'm here with someone that I feel extremely connected to. And that is helpful with my nervousness. And I'm really grateful to have you as my first guest, Chris. And for those that don't know, Chris jerkies, you will learn a lot about him and the way he works and his perspectives throughout this episode. But you have been someone who has definitely really shaped my practice. You've really helped me find my own way into understanding my own human experience and other people's human experience and the complexity and the beauty of it all. And I'm so grateful for so much of what I've learned through you, I mean, everything that I've learned through you, it's really helped me, land in myself and understand the multiple realities that exist within myself. And with such grace and such beauty and the way you helped me find my sense of wholeness, even though I knew what it was, but I didn't have the words for it and didn't have conscious awareness of it. I really found that working through you allowed me to create that spaciousness that comes from recognizing that I'm already hold. And it just allowed me to be in the messiness and the chaos, which I still find myself in. But I'm able to hold it with so much more grace. And it's definitely because of a lot of the work I've done with you. So thank you.

I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. So the touching. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

And I find that when I have a call with you, I feel connected to you in like many dimensions. So I always enjoy time with you. Because I feel like there's so many more conversations going on other than just this voiced conversations. So yeah, I'm excited to see where our conversation goes today. And my invitation for people listening is to also tune into their experience as they're listening to pick up on like the multi dimensional conversations, we can have no ways we can experience ourselves through words. So yeah. Beautiful. I want to start with us. On that very light topic, just exploring what oh, how do I want to read this, like in the human experience, to me, there's many layers, and three of the layers that you speak to so beautifully is self, soul and spirit, and the interconnectedness of those three pieces. So I'd love for you to speak a little to each of those like, what what is self? What is soul? What is spirit?

Oh, yeah. Okay. That's a good, good place. So thanks. And so we could use different lingo. That's the lingo, I tend to be familiar with. Other, it's basically a variation that exists in a number of different lineages. So I like, like points where a number of different traditions and lineages I think all end up pointing to the same thing, even though they'll have slightly different languaging and nuancing. I think there's something when a number of fingers are pointing in the same general spot, and I take that to be somebody's on to something. Totally.

I think that's why I like the experiential piece, because it's like, well, all these different ways of approaching things. It's like, well, if we're experienced the same thing, but have different words for it, then help you with

something. Yeah, totally. So other traditions would use different lingo but for much of the same kind of deep underlying wisdom, I think. So. Self, small s self is really sort of codeword for our humaneness. So that includes our Cymatics that includes the body, the body's wisdom, as well as our human psychology, personnel, personality or just the humaneness of this whole thing.

But would you leave, would you weave our trauma into that as well of like where we're stuck Still trying to survive. That's kind of at the self level.

Yeah, that's certainly one variation that can show up there. That there's kind of there's healthier variations to which would show up and yeah. For example, the Buddhist tradition, I would speak at the body mind. So there's body embodiment, and also consciousness. And so when versus this kind of idea of like, I have a body or the body is triggered as an object. Instead, when I become subject, then we get a more integrative space that has a lot more spontaneity and resilience and Trinsic, motivation, creativity, just in a really healthy human, functional, adaptive, enjoyable human life.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. And obviously, any dysregulation aspects on any of these levels that we're going to talk about.

I'm glad you named that, because that was one of the questions. So we wanted to revisit the trauma. The dysregulation is there are many reforms.

So we think of these three, really, I invite people to think of it as, imagine it as a really long spectrum, like a horizontal line. Rather than thinking of a vertically, because as soon as we start thinking of it vertically, then there's going to be higher and lower and better and worse, and all that. So think of it as a horizontal line. And maybe on one side of the spectrum is more the self energy. In the middle would be soul, which is the unique, the truly unique aspects of being not the culturally conditioned, everybody has to be unique, really unique thing, but like, no, actually, we're all actually fundamentally singular. So traditions that orient to that dimension of the human would be classically, like indigenous medicine, traditions, usually here, energy healing, or what people call shamanic. Yeah, animistic wisdom that would involve soul journeys and relationships with the ancestral field and the story that coding one came in with Hero's Journey heroines journey, you know, say like, that's kind of the soul realm.

And would you say that's like, you do some soul blueprint work and many different forms. That's what you're kind of speaking to, we could put astrology into that we can put gene keys, human design into that all these different aspects that kind of show. Like, this is our blueprint, this is who I am or what I'm here to be doing.

Yes, yeah. Yeah. And it also includes quite a lot of our influence from our ancestry. Yeah, and to make sure that that's more in a clarified free statement are being rather than we're being lived unconsciously by, you know, in bite deep time, we're talking deep memory, who we are, in our dreams, you know, what shows up in our dreams when we're in wild spaces. When nature starts interacting with this? What? When people go Do you know, work with horses and the horses, well read their energy and respond accordingly? We're in a, we're in a dream space now.

Yeah. Yeah. And I want to kind of just clarify with the ancestral pieces, like the ancestral wisdom that comes through is kind of what I feel in that here in that, that's very different than my ancestral patterning. And the conditioning that gets passed on. That, to me is more at the self level versus the weirdest

bit of both. I mean, it can really be if there's, like in constellations work, you know, families or systems constellation type work when there's some deep story and a family lineage a secret, a taboo, for trauma, that's unconsciously living people. It's a form of solar to turn to eat. Right.

Good point. I appreciate that. Yeah. I can relate to that piece. Big time. So yeah. The layers of it. Both layers of self and souls.

Yeah. And the well ancestor, you know, when we're talking about kind of the spirits of benevolence or the energies of benevolence on our lines, that's obviously important to link to him and if there's any that are in need, Have some healing, then the first step usually is to be able to help in a healthy way to differentiate ourselves. Space. It's one

of my favorite things to I've been having so many ancestral pieces come up lately, and I'm just like, this is fun, because it is easier to differentiate. Support the healing in that but not entangled. I mean, still part of me, and I'm still entangled in some way. But yeah, differentiation piece is key,

for sure. And I think often the soul work side of things, and the soul process side of things is one that has it starting to come more into, at least in some quarters, certain awareness, but has generally been kind of the, the loss, the middle child here, and this setup, I think it's usually been kind of the Forgotten character, but it's starting to get a little more common. Certain circles, particularly like through plant medicine is that's getting more popular, that's one doorway, it's not the only doorway, that's one traditional doorway. Yeah. And then spirit. So along our continuum along our line here, the spectrum, sort of on the other end of the spectrum, spirit would be meditation and classic teachings of spiritual awakening really, and spirit, I would define as the universal dimension, rather than soul to me is quite singular, to each being. Spirit is more universal. So it has, it has the plus side of really, in its past moments, emphasizing humility, we're all children of God, we're all from the same source, all one, you know, it was meant to really in the best kind of emphasize everybody's in the same boat here, everybody's equal, there's no higher lower kind of thing. On the flip side, it's, for each of them, their strength is their limitation, right? They're doing one thing, and they're not doing the other things, which is fine, if we have a view that incorporates enough of the different aspects so that they can all do their gift and not have to be everything, all things, they can just focus on the ones on what they're focused on. So spiritual teaching goes a little sideways when it's treated as our true and real self. And the other stuff, it's treated as our false self. And then we're trying to get rid of our ego, like, that's just your ego thing, that's a problem. And also, because it's a universal, it's non personal, it's the same for all of us. So if it gets pushed too far, it tends to show up with a lot of like, conformity kind of stuff. Because everybody should look the same. And everybody shake their heads, and everybody at the same draft clothes, wear off at the same time and eat the same meat, like it can get very conformist pretty fast, because a universal aspect is now being pitched as the archetype for everybody to conform themselves to

totally. Which then is just structure again, instead of this sort of a fuller scope of Yeah,

and yeah, I think so I often say that like spirit to me for an analogy for people that consider to fit on their experiences. There's one sun, and there's one light, all the rays of that song are the same essence, it's the one light. But the rays are really distinct as rays. And so spiritual teaching, to me is about the one sun and the one light at the one sun and solo work and soul teaching, it's really about how to embody that one light in the unique way that each of us would be. And then that way they can support each other rather than be one or the other. Yeah,

I love that. What I also find helpful in that is like, there's many individual arrays, but there's also like almost a spectrum of arrays where some of us kind of fall more in, you know, this spectrum of the array and others are in a very different spectrum or the array and, and how that allows us to see these different ways we're here, and that we're really not all the same light. We're just a source of that same light and yet the spectrum of the different versions of that And I really find that helpful in seeing other people in the way they're showing up in the world. And that it's like, oh, that's just a very different way than me. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just a very different state. Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah, colors of the rainbow, or whatever we like, it is definitely, to really own our own radical singularity is really what actually frees up the best space, as you were just saying there and really beautiful way to allow other people to be themselves really? Has we're not in a comparison game. Now. We're not in a, there's no one standard criteria that everybody's like, Oh, are you higher on the ladder? You lowered? Did you get better grades? Like that's not there? So it's the question is, the question would be for each of us that we, to the best degree possible. And as a kind of process, are we growing into the nature of our own specific life? Yeah. While being human? Yeah, while still being really

very human. 100%? Yeah. So what I want to invite people to reflect on in that is like, in these pieces of like, small cells of soul, and spirit, like, what lands and because for me, there's a really felt sense to each of those experiences to each of those pieces where I can feel I can feel them as separate, but I can feel them as intertwined. And there's no edges to either of any of them. There's this weaving of the three components in a way that really allow me to move through the world and recognize like, Oh, there I am, in small self or out there I am experiencing that, that expansiveness, at least that's how I feel it of spirit. And oh, here I am in this expression of soul, right? And it's such a beautiful way to move through the world with that awareness for me, because it's, it's allows continuous curiosity of how am I showing up here? And how do I weave the three into my conscious awareness and create that fuller expression of that, like you're saying, like, really kind of be that ray of light instead of kind of more, one or more or the other? And really, yeah, and that? Yeah, weaving of those three feels important to me in this moment.

Yeah. And I appreciate the name. And if we got our line, and we have our sort of spectrum, and for sure to sort of conceptually think, okay, self soul spirit, like the three nice TD license at boxes, but there's all kinds of zones or they overlap. But also, we could just imagine drawing one really big circle around the whole line. And then that circle creates the sense of I am all of the above, rather than we're looking for, okay, well, which is the real me and which is the deeper one, and which is the true one, and which is the false one. And doing that whole slice and dice game, instead of just say, like you're doing they're like, checking in, like, what's my humaneness saying, in this relationship to this experience? What's my soul gonna say, and that was my spirit experience this. And that opens up this fourth space or process or dynamic, that to keep the SS in some way it's fun, is to call it sovereignty. And that's, to me where choice really exists. The self is going to self the soul is going to soul and the spirit is going to spirit. That's just who they are, how they roll. Yeah. And to me, this sovereign dimension, which is the one that can be aware of all of them and weave, as you're saying, between and through and bringing them all together and kind of a triple brewery, like, that's the one that actually has choice. They can say, Okay, here's my humanity feels about the situation. You know, and it can be a Spotify, it's a wide spectrum, you know, and we can take all kinds of fun topics like, you know, time as a fun one for people to play with, like, ourselves experience of time is very linear, and tends to be more immediate and can be like, Oh my god, I gotta get all this stuff done. I got all these appointments of a lot. And then the souls experience of times like that generations lifetimes and it gets like fun and dreamy and fluid and Salvador Dali, like clock's melting, like nonlinear and the past is, you know, the harkens to the future and the future greats the past and you know, whatever. And then the Spirit part is like, there's no time everything's eternal or timeless and, and so instead of saying which one is right, the sovereign approach, the fun sort of paradoxical playful approach is to say they're all right, and then live with this really fascinating kind of robbed or creatives friction of like, all of those options are true, depending on which one we're looking from. Yeah,

I love that. I love that because I, my relationship with Thai has been so weird the last couple years. So hearing you put weird words to that is really helpful. I am lost in that. I don't want to say last. But I experienced myself and all three of those components to hold it with more of that awareness of the sovereignty feels, my sovereign being within that the choice of how I'm navigating my relationship when I'm in it when I'm a little more in the chaos of time, and the limit of it versus the infinite experience of it. Yeah. So thank you. Thanks for picking time on that one. Yeah.

It's a light hearted the southern space law, some room to breathe and some lightheartedness. Because we, again, are getting to retain the humanity throughout. We're not trained to negate or transcend or any of the things like the humaneness is going to remain. So it's going to be wild and weird and mysterious, and like, I don't know, this is my basketball. Last year, and souls gonna have it's the app, the spirits gonna bring us deep stillness. It's just the fun of like, what happens when we put those that's a that's an inch. That's a spicy jumble I like you've begun it's an interesting meal. Yeah,

yeah. Well, and what I'm feeling in that is like, the more we're in the weave of it, the more we're in that sovereignty, then there's choice. And there isn't a sense of like, urgency. And that's where the humanity lies really, right. Because I find if we veer more into one side of things, like before may be caught more in that sense of the Spirit piece. That's where we're gonna then bypass, right? And that's where we kind of get lost in. Yeah, in the infinite or in the bypassing and the loss of sense of reality and responsibility and even agency itself. Right, right. And then the other end of the spectrum, it's like, if I'm to cotton itself, in a way, that's where I'm caught in the always seeking, trying to fix something's wrong with me. There's the, I mean, maybe it's not that simple, where it's just one or the other. But, you know, there's, that's what's standing out to me if I'm kind of living more in one layer versus the other layer. And I'm probably going to see that in the way I'm showing up in my life and the patterns I find myself caught in.

Yeah, there's a truth to each of the three, but also partiality. And if it becomes the exclusive or primary, any of them doesn't matter, like you're saying, it will show up differently. If the ones overtop the other ones, they'll depend on which ones on top and which ones on bottom or whatever. But the kind of scene piece is the structural piece that arose the there's now a division being set up. And there's now a sort of internal fracture and hierarchy being set up between the better and the worse, and the true and the false and the whatever. And it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, it's just sort of the technicals of which ones on top and which ones on bottom, sure, different terms of the sort of surface features, but the deeper structural similarity will be that fragment from the beginning. And so to me, this model is an attempt to really offer like, let's reconcile with ourselves.

There is something on the top and the bottom, yeah,

there's the spherical, there's way more there's bubbles within bubbles within a sphere. And then they can play and they can interact and so it just allows for all the different parts or aspects or attributes of our being of our multi dimensional being. To all have a home and all have a place Huh, yeah, please isn't that they're meant to be in the driver's seat. I often think of it as like the tour bus. It's like our tour bus and be filled with a lot of character. Sure. Road magical districts or but there doesn't need to be a decent driver. Yeah. And or if you'd like a slightly different version of that it's you know, each being is like this fascinating symphony. Yeah. Pretty definitely the conductor. Yeah. Otherwise, it's just a whole bunch of instruments laying off different sheet music and other elements. Exactly discordant.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So would you say then that the driver is?

Sovereign see?

Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you.

And in that way, I think it's really important that I mean, you can treat it like, another voice or character if you like, but in some ways, it's it's that but you can also say it's, as you said, the weaving in the flow itself. It's almost more dynamic. You know, riding a bike or something you're not. Okay, I remember think through all the steps first, and then I'm gonna the minute we have thought my way get a basic idea where you're going, and then the road will change. And then any other company just agile and making choices as you go and flexing? Yeah,

totally. Yeah. I want to just point out, like, when you talk about the linear line, and, and the circle that encompasses all of that, when we're in that sense of sovereignty, and holding all the layers of it, to me that there just feels there's a spaciousness to it, and of this ease to it. And when you were talking more about the layers and something being on top, and to me, it felt like like this, like, just, like too much effort, too much struggle, like this constant battle of like, who am I? And how do I figure this out? And, you know, like, I just wanted to name that as an opportunity for others to maybe reflect as well. And like this difference between what you're speaking to versus other ways of approaching things that is a little more like, get rid of the ego, or, you know, where

the whole spiritual realization is just a projection of infantile, like a Freudian thing that it's all about is all just projection and in infancy wish fulfillment for some being mommy or daddy in the sky to take care of it. Like there's so many versions that will take one or another of those three, and then say, this is the real one, and the other ones are false.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the right response to that.

Um, wholeness is a word you introduce me to. And it's a word I speak to a fair amount, like one of my principles is you're already whole, how would you weave wholeness into what we're speaking to here is to me, wholeness is slightly different than sovereignty. Yeah,

I think of them is. Different aspects or complementary aspects of this fourth, dynamic, this integrative dynamic, so the sovereignty emphasizes, I think, the sense of choice and conductor of one's sensitivity. And really, like sit in your throne be the king or the queen or the sovereign of your own reality which doesn't mean you control all reality, it's not some ridiculous notion of omniscience. life a lot easier. As the riding the bike example, you don't control the weather the dog has the other traffic like we have sovereign choice in terms of our areas of our own power and agency and responsibility. And then there's respond how we respond to things that are usually out of our control. So sovereignty, I think it was really emphasizing that side there really like there's no system from above that's gonna come and tell us how to live our lives, like we actually really get to discover and choose for ourselves from that space. Yeah. wholeness, to me as emphasizing the sense of all the parts of the inner family, if you want to call it that are superduper welcome. And that something happens that's greater than the sum of the parts, the more of our aspects, whether they're in the self part, they're more in the soul part, one spiritual part, or some combination, more of these aspects of ourself that we gather Welcome to bring home, maybe once we were told were bad and they got pushed down, like come home or we just never even knew they were there, then it's like a surprise, surprise, here's part of your incarnation, you know, business partner me? Yeah, the more of those get to be welcome and get to live together, there's a fullness and deeper richness and wholeness to our experience. But, again, is very, very different. And has a different feel about it my period correctly naming, then any setup, where one's going to be on top and the other is a derivative false, and it doesn't matter which is on top and center, which is on bottom. And just say like, I often quote the sign from Walt Whitman. I'm fast. I contain multitudes.

I love bone and be it. That's beautiful. Yeah. So the

key one of the key words there is contain. It doesn't mean there's just a bunch of pieces flying around here Nilly. And they're just shooting off in all directions and fragmenting. That's not helpful. But it's also not, I'm just this one thing. And I, all this other stuff is false. It's we're all larger all past and we contain multitudes of various dimensions of ourselves. And we're just trying to actually be like, welcoming allness is really like, the more the merrier here.

And that's where, you know, you said, fragmenting is like, Oh, we're not fragmented. But sometimes it can be experienced as a fragment, where it's like, well, like this piece of me, I didn't even know existed comes forward, or, to me, I often see a lot of aspects has stuck in time, right? They're stuck, still surviving, whatever they're, they're caught in. Right? It's kind of like there's a fragmented piece or a reality that exists that stuck in time. And to me what happens when we connect into that sense of wholeness? Or are we hold that container of wholeness, it's this coherent field for those pieces that are caught in time or, you know, not even in the existence or in the awareness of the container. It allows those pieces to come forward and to be integrated back into the hole. So I don't know if that lands in the way you work, but like, to me, it is sometimes experienced, like a fragment that just has yet to be integrated, but it's not. Outside of me, it's still always a part of the whole, it just hasn't yet integrated.

That's really well said once really beautifully said. So it's a really bubbles within bubbles, spheres. spheres. Yeah. And from inside one sphere, it may seem or appear as if it's outside. Yeah, totally a space but actually found the, the bigger, big circle. You're right, it is actually still within. And that's really important is whether we can shift our perspective because if we're inside a part human develop that or bubble here, that feels itself to be completely like fragmented, that can be a very disorienting and discombobulating kind of experience. Whereas if we can approach it, from the resource, the state of the bigger circle, yeah, like this part feels alienated. Or this part feels disconnected or part feels seems, senses itself to be fragmented, that it's giving validity to the experience of that part. Yeah, without allowing that part to be come the whole. So we're not saying it's wrong, but we're also not saying it's the final truth either.

Yeah, exactly. And that's one that's something I actually got from you is recognizing that bigger circle is me and my wholeness and yes, I've got small circles within it that are those chaotic experiences that are stuck in time that are have carry certain burdens or you know, whatever it is, and I find that a lot of people have yet to discover what that experiences and most people live is like the big circle is them and their chaos is them in their patterning and in their dysregulation ultimately, and they might understand this concept of wholeness, but it's perceived as this like small circle inside the big chaos. And yeah, something you I believe it was you offered me was this the sweat actually like, well, what if the circle is whole? And just a small, the small circle inside that circle is you and your patterns? Are you in the chaos. And that has actually really helped me shape one of my maps, which is like, okay, yeah, in the inside of the circle is the trauma. And then we've got our survival patterns that's, you know, support us in that feeling, the pain, the panic, the terror, all the components of whatever we're stuck in with our trauma. And then we have the dynamic of how we feel towards our survival patterns and the way we move through the world. But then when we can hold it in that bigger circle of that sense of wholeness, or as the empathic witness, then then we really get to hold the many realities that exist inside our experience. But we can create that spaciousness to hold it instead of getting lost in those many internal layers.

I really appreciate I love that you said empathic witness there. Yeah, that's certainly,

to me, that is wholeness, right. And we can think for being the empathic witness and one of those inner layers. And the key is to notice when we're like trying to fix it, or have it be different, or you know, but it's that when we're really the empathic witness, we are just in this, this, this spaciousness of being whole and holding that container for all the many other realities that exist. Something else that has been really powerful in me kind of mapping out in this way. It's like, well, outside of the wholeness, and also lies, the infinite love and the infinite sorrow. And there's just yeah, the more we kind of find that sense of wholeness and experience ourselves as a sovereign being, the more we also access that, that love and that sorrow and I think that's so juicy, and yeah, yeah, so just wanted to add that to the map in the conversation here.

No, I really appreciate your naming. A number of points series that I think are really key. One, the distinction between thinking being empathic, the spaciousness versus, that's the coverage story. The reality or moment by before any orientation to fix an engineer, make different. Even even language of like healing and clearing, which sounds more conscious can be another cover story for fix, which is obviously then rooted in the fundamental motion of broken ribs. And I'll go ahead, I

was just gonna say I find most people probably can relate to this more than that sense of wholeness and sovereignty and the impact the happiness so yeah,

I think the value one of the most important values of it's very counterintuitive as to how transformation really occurs. I usually prefer the word transformation to healing but that's, that's my word for what people will probably call healing. The way it actually works is first, complete and fundamental, unconditional positive self regard and nurturance. And just deep, deeper layers of that, but they are ourselves for each other, or experience. And the cultural noise or conditioning says that such an approach will be narcissistic, such an approach won't be self indulgent, and will make us you know, all Me me me me me, I just need more level but he can just nd irresponsible, and just want to be takers. But the truth is, is very, very zapper really experienced profound empathy, the real form that is fundamentally this huge container of incredible benevolence and fundamental acceptance as EVs. That's actually, as you said earlier, what creates a coherent tone. Yeah. It's like a really big tuning fork. That's precisely said as being like a perfect bell. And then all the other parts start to go, oh, that sounds really nice. Feels really nice. That's weird. It's different of the different what is that? And it's actually the space of unconditional positive self regard. and found empathy and nurturance that actually creates the safety such that the parts actually then grow, that they get unstuck in time that they actually evolve and actually come into greater integrity and alignment. And so it's the complete opposite of the like, put on your big boy, big girl pants school, they got to be like tough and you like laid off, and you got to toughen up, and all this kind of stuff. Or we're all just these wounded beings, and no one can ever be asked to beat step up to the plate. It's actually completely the opposite. It's like, the unconditional love and the nurturing is what creates the energy actually motivate and change and Corrado? Because it's not coming from, oh, my God, I'm broken, I need to get fixed. That's a hole. And here's a part that isn't yet aware, and doesn't yet feel that wholeness. So let's just bring the wholeness to that space until it's big scalars relaxes into this bigger, spacious.

And what I love about that is, it's actually easy, you know, not saying it's not challenging and difficult and simple. It's simple. It's simple, simple word for it. Like there's something with that. But yeah, it just makes it so much like we're not butting heads with ourselves. We're not in conflict with ourselves. We're not. Yeah, it's not a fight. There's a simplicity to it. Again, it's not that it's not messy, at least my experience, it's definitely been messy, challenging, sometimes to

say simple. But it you're right, it's not overly complicated. It actually does bring things down to I think, a more distilled space of elegant simplicity. Yeah. And I also appreciate it really deeply that you said that as that occurs as the noise and some of the discordance starts to reduce. And I would say that that noise is suffering. As that comes down, what actually comes up is greater tenderness. Like the feeling tongues actually gets stronger and deeper. Because the suffering and some of the numbness is wearing off, so. So yeah, the happiness is happier, and the joy is sweeter, and the sorrow is sadder. And like grief is more piercing. And it's really it's really a package deal.

Yeah, it really is. I remember when I first started to work with you one of my, one of the pieces, I really wanted to work with his feeling more like now one of my patterns, and it's definitely ancestral is rooted in being strong, independent women, and you know, everything's fine. And definitely flavors of bypassing, right. And it's like, for me, it's like, I know, there's a motion that exists, but I can only kind of feel the depth of it, that kind of like a couple inches of depth to feeling emotion. And something I want to point out is like, I mean, I am still well on this journey. And I feel like I'm only just starting to kind of maybe have like a foot foot and a half of depth into emotion now. And like I feel it in my like, I feel it, as I'm speaking about it in my heart, there's this rawness to it, and it's taking time. And I can't imagine it not taking time, because otherwise it would be too much. And the importance of like letting the unfolding happen in the way it needs to unfold. Well, of course, becoming aware of the ways I get in my own way and all of that, but like this gentle unfolding and thawing that's happening for me, and but it's not just a rip up, ripping the band aid off, and then all of a sudden things are different. It's like, I really do think it's important for us to recognize that because I find so many people are seeking for like things to be different, so dramatically. And it's like, well, this is a process and we probably have lifetimes to figure it out, you know? So just that that that I've wanted to invite people to recognize that it's a slow process. And the reason why we're numb or disconnected or or frozen to feeling certain layers is like, thank goodness, because it would be a lot otherwise wouldn't

be. Yeah, all right. I really appreciate your bringing in the sense of Yeah, it's I think a quality of grace, but because it's not this oh my god. Oh my God, I need to get fixed. So now we're whole, and we're trying to sink into the wholeness. And it's really important. I think that because we're including the humanity as an integral part of the soul equation that has something to add, it's not just the extra bit that we have to include, like, it's actually bringing something to the party here. Yes. And what it brings to the party is, among other things, is like, to allow it to feel like you've made any traditions that are gonna deny the value of what it actually takes for the body to incorporate, and digest properly experience inevitably creates kind of like, like, self flagellation, like trying to push oneself beyond limits, and not honoring the limits, because, oh, that should resist that. And so, you know, like, toughen, you know, again, hate us, or spiritually versions of that, which is like this very hardcore asceticism. And make, like, that's just my sinful self. And that's those are my desires, and I transcend that, you know, it can be very ruthless, it can be very violent, to ourselves and to each other. And here, we're trying to actually have peace, like real peace with ourselves and each other, well, then

I find that when we we find that, then we can work within whatever modality we're practicing with such a different in such a different flavor. Like it makes me think of psychedelics. And if you work with psychedelics, with that mentality of wanting it, things to be different, and just like push and go, and like, I should just drink more i Alaska, you know, like, the ruptures that I have seen happen in that, especially when there isn't support for integration and, and all of that it. It's it's quite messy and discombobulating and can really mess with people's lives. And, you know, I'm using psychedelics as an example. There's many other examples we could put into this, but, but when we have that sense of humanity, and in a way, even humility, we can work with these practices in such a different way. Like, to me, it allows, it has allowed me to really know my edges and, and work with whatever the support system is, to explore what else is possible instead of like, disconnecting from myself to dive in and figure it out? So

yeah, I often say that the body and the emotions, particularly the sensation, and the the emotion should be the pace car. So it's actually the opposite. So I didn't do the fan medicine thing in my 20s. I did the hardcore Meditation and Spiritual Awakening are thing. My 20s and I was I really messed myself up. I hadn't called God all the experiences, or at least plenty of them. But I couldn't hold it. Yeah, the rubberband got stretched really wide. And it was like, Oh, that's amazing. And then snapback was brutal. Yeah. And it was all predicated on the notion that I was really trying to, like, treat the body like it was this older, that I was just trying to, like, push along. And it was just a rock of resistance that I was just instead of like, this is a place of wisdom.

This is a part of me, this is something I need to listen to.

And in particular, if we set it at the pace that works for kind of the deep current of the body, like the long tide, that it does feel more spacious and smooth and gradual, because it's actually an A B at the pace that's digestible. Yeah, like, you know, one of those classic friendship Chinese 10 course meals, you eat them over like ours is terrible. stomachache. Exactly. You know, there's a lot of bad stomachache, stuff going on, whether it's in personal growth or playing medicine or spiritual stuff or whatever, which is really not taking seriously the pace and the rhythm that a nap more organic human mode wants to go. Yeah, the mind can get sped up and the emotions if they're dysregulated can get set up and then that creates all this kind of false urgency etc. And a huge part of it is actually slowing way down

which It's funny because a lot of people don't know how to slim down, you know. And sometimes it takes that big thing that happens for them to then slow down. But my hopes are that people don't need the big thing to happen for them to slow down. Yeah, them to really come into the experience of themselves and learn those edges and learn the language of like, Ooh, what am I really pushing through here? And what happens if I back off and really be in? What my reality is right now and let that be my learning guide?

Yeah, I think it's so important to have these two hands, or the two pillars, or whatever you want to say is the one that's like, complete deep acceptance and nurturance. And, and total, unconditional positive self regard empathy in the present moment. And that's what creates like real courage, tenacity, grit. in the best sense of like, yeah, there's gonna be some stuff we're all gonna step into, it's gonna be a little beyond my current comfort zone. Yeah, exactly. But you're doing that you find where the current comfort zone is, and then your job. Once you feel really safe first and the current comfort zone, then it's like, okay, let's just see what like 2% or 5%, a little bit more than that. It's exactly. And that's staying there for a bit, and then came back and like, just really titrated Yeah.

And that's where I love the length, like listening to my physiology and my human my whole human experience, really, but like, there's so much we can really tune into, that shows us when we're in the safety. And when we're at that two or 5%. And the more we play within those subtle experiences, and the more we listen, learn to listen to those subtle nuances that we experience, the more we can really be in the fluid experience of it instead of these. Yeah, looking for these big experiences where we're pushing ourselves more to 60 70% the listening snapback later. Exactly, exactly. snapback is real,

unpleasant. Recommend.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

No, I think it's crucial that the beauty of trying to incorporate the animistic and the great soul wisdom, teachings, and the beauties of the great spiritual awakening teachings, that those traditions did not have the language and understanding, we now have things like interpersonal neurobiology, and attachment theory, and somatic regulation and all that good fancy. And really, for those teachings, my view is that for those teachings to be in their best preserved and routine, and transmitted and carried forward as I think they ought to be, because there's such the immense wisdom as traditions about their specific zones of focus, genius, they need the upgrade, they need to update, because we have way more information now on the smallest self side of the street. And that that information has to modify and update the soul in the spirit, just

as 200% Agree. 100% agree. And we're slowly making our way there. But I think we're a ways away.

Really just scratching the surface. But I think it's the app for sure. I think it's a multi generational calling, but we got to start somewhere. So I think just being able to name it as such that that's what it is. It's really important. Because there's something for me that just has a ring of just, that's, that's right. Yeah. And when I hear any mention, not too often, but the occasional time that I get some pushback relative to that statement. It just sounds like the wrong note. Like it just really sounds like somebody who's playing Mary Had a Little Lamb and you can just tell the wrong out. That's the wrong. It does it? Yeah, just have that. Oh,

yeah.

It's not it.

Do you feel like there's some defensiveness in that No, is that are some protection of the modality or the practice or

it could be I think also just somebody's like, oh, I spent all this time getting like, so great discipline to learn. It seems like unpaid task on one level it is I suppose. But also in another way. We're okay. The paradox here is as we were saying earlier, like in an Either way, it just simplifies everything. I agree. That actually makes it. I think, way more is useful.

Yeah. Just have to go past that hump of. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But less and less of it, I finally get less and less about, maybe here or there. But it used to be a little more more of it. Now, it seems to be less something.

I find, I mean, if my If my guess is if someone's coming to you, there's already a curiosity of something different, right? Yeah. It's, yeah, when people are in this place where they know they want more they are there's this interest in more, that there's already a part of them, at least that knows. And it's just the part that's holding on so tight to all the hard work they've done, or the modality that they practice and the way they move through life. It's like, why would I let go of this? Don't make me do something different?

Yeah, yeah. And this whole question of like, well, if we're all these parts, you know, who am I? It's like, I would say, like, the conductor handle is funny. To me, but true self is, again, the oldest, it's really a dynamic multiplicity that's integrated. Yes. Yeah. And so we're, yeah, you're the woodwinds and the orchestra, and the brass and the kid but like the whole, and the person with the triangle. Place a triangle, and

even the person who packs up here afterwards.

Team, the whole team. Yeah, exactly. When we have this more like, let's have our team, let's have our inner family be healthy and functioning and happy and peaceful with each other. There's a lot more creativity. That can happen. Yeah.

Yeah. The creativity and the ease. Yeah. I could, I could keep talking forever. And I do I do have one more piece that I'm like, Oh, we could weave this in? Or we could leave it you have a sense?

Well, what is it I'd be curious to hear what it is.

It's, we've already in the way talked about it, but not with these words. Weaving in the knowledge of like, more of a head practice a heart practice a gap practice the I mean, we've already spoken to it just not from this perspective, right. So and this is one of the things that I love, like you go on your sub stacks and the amount of information, you know, like I listened to some stack, sometimes I'm like, what, how he studies this to like, I love how many different maps you bring into the picture, because it does allow people to you know, find the map that resonates and, and find their own way into discovering their own maps and their own perspectives. That to me is really important, right, like, offer up as many maps as possible so people can find their own understanding and their own perspectives, their own experience of themselves. And and yeah, so one of the other maps I've heard you speak to is that head and the heart and the gut. So if you want to dive into that,

yeah, for sure. I, I appreciate pointing out the thing about maps, which is, maps aren't the territory. But it is really nice to have a nice map if you're going somewhere. It really is. It is good maps. Not crappy maps. But the GPS is off.

Like Google Maps on my crew. Down on the dead ends. Yeah, that's happened.

Yeah, so to me, these are the maps that usually come out there on the site or like, to me ones that have like deep wisdom and deep legacy to them. There's update terms of all this somatic regulation pieces that we need. But they are maps to me that have been around for a long time because I think they speak there's something of perennial and true preserved wisdom that's been passed down. We might want to update some things. But I think there's a lot of legacy and honoring a good way without being fundamentalists.

Yeah. And holding on tight just to one. This is the final.

Yeah. That's good. That's obviously no grip, but it's also not like, Oh, we're modern people. And we're past all I can do and you need to know Yeah. People who go home know. These people spent 1000s of years it's blubbering the nature of things like energy and consciousness. I'm pretty sure we should not just throw it out. Yeah. No,

no, especially if you're doing it with such ignorance. You might want to check yourself. Yeah,

there's some. There's some accrued wisdom over millennia. So yeah. Head heart and gut is, you know, one way of a nice way of again, it's like, the three in one, whether it's soul soul spirit, our, you know, there's something nice just about, you know, like getting the fairytales. So it's like the third, there's always the three brothers and sisters, their son, something demonically about that. But it's enough complexity, that it's not overly simplistic, but it's not so complicated that nobody can remember it with systems of like, there's 115 different things, or,

like, I can retain three, that's a very good.

Yeah, so the three, those three main sort of locations that the body and they're being used as kind of biological correlates of the good way, you know, we don't have to be super strict about it. But as each of those three, open up, they tend to have characteristic qualities associated with them. And again, a more integrative or wholeness oriented version is gonna say all of the above, like, we're only interested in this one, and this one, and this one, not this one, versus this one, or that one. So the head spaces, when there's kind of flow and ease and clarity brought to the head or mind space, you tend to get imagery, like clarity. awareness will be kind of language, like illumination, feeling of like the mind being very open, cool, clear, deep perspective, you know, up on the mountaintop panoramic kind of view. And that's really lovely. So long as we don't make that the final like you're only gonna go live up on the mountaintop, that's like the classic like, oh, I had reached the mountaintop. Now, I'm just gonna stay up here, because it's so lovely up here. Yeah, like, well, there's stuff down on the ground, and then the valley too, it's, you know, so. But if we allow it to be what it is, again, true, but also, partial, might not be a problem, but that'd be like a good thing. Then mind spaces, it's really nice to have clarity. So when people are saying, you know, get out of your head and get into your body, I would say like, imagine that body without chicken

if you're saying that someone's like, that is not the body we got problem. Serious, your brains up there. Yeah. Obviously, if the person thinks that their whole sense of their self is this little guy or person inside their forehead, that's like, you know, like the Flintstones or a slug in letters of makeup and dinosaurs in the quarry, like that's the problem if you approach yourself that way, but your body is just some, you know, mechanical robot or levers that you're moving around. That's a problem.

Which do you find like in the Buddhist practice, for example, everything is the mind? Is that a component of that? Or would you say that's different?

They might mind there is probably more like what we would tend to say as consciousness. Okay. Not mine, like your usual like mind thinking, my Oh, what time do I gotta you know, get the thing or what's Yeah, whatever. But like, consciousness, awareness. Okay,

thanks for clarifying that. That feels very different. Then. So

when the mind opens, it tends to have that experience of like, really deep awareness. Really deep, beautiful consciousness. Yeah, and of the lucidity lessness. And yeah, there's a mind there's a wisdom to life like,

yeah, I am my body. I'm not my mind and not my mind.

Yeah, the Dow you know, the plant knows to just reach for the sunlight. But they baby just nervous to reach for the mother. Yeah, like, there's a wisdom to life. But if we can get out of the way, well, I'm fine. I'm just like The stream of life wants to actually be a current it actually wants to live in it knows how to live. So that is good kind of stuff that tends to arise when there's that very head or if you like, mind oriented. And again, beautiful, deep part deep trough. And also, its potential limitation is that it's, you want to stay up on the mountain, and one might want to stay up in the place where everything is Internet, and it's all serene, and everything's perfect. And that's wonderful. And then there's actually like, stuff on the street. And there's, you know, that that can be like a kind of safe zone to be in, you know, infinite unconsciousness.

It can lead to a bypassing way of being in the world is

that for sure. Hacking can definitely be like a safe zone, the hideout?

Yeah, yeah.

When classically, when awakening goes from the head down into the heart, it's a different ballgame at that point. Because then all the things like our emotions, and our, as you said earlier, are join our grief. And the more of the one equals the more of the other, and there are a package deal. Like that all comes online. If the heart opens. Yeah. joy and sorrow. You know, and as a whole other game Brasilia famous saying by a great set of master Dogan that enlightenment is intimacy with all things.

Beautiful. Yeah. So

the key word there is intimacy. It's so good to become intimate with grief can become intimate with fear come into know with rage and anger and humanity and our longings for attachment and we're jealousies, and our heartbreaks, and our beauties, and our hopes and our tender places and our vulnerabilities and like,

yeah, yeah. And it makes me think of what we spoke to earlier about the edges there. I'm aware, like, as we shift from talking about the head, and I could feel that experience now that we're talking about the heart. I'm like, oh, there's my I feel it. Feel the edge that I can hang out in and explore and my, you know, 5%. And it's like, there's the real rawness in that. At least that's my experience. It's just

like, oh, this paid for abs. Yeah, yeah. That's intrinsically tender. Yeah. And you're, and again, back to our earlier point that the emotions and the sensation and the felt sense, the body sets the pace, and is never to be overridden is exactly the point of titration on a simulation. It's not just like, the I'm into the heart rate ball and stuff. Like and, you know, yeah, it's like, dip your toe and get your ankle like really? Yeah, take your break. Like, those are warm. But also raw waters. They're beautiful ones, but they are for sure. Intrinsically visceral.

Yeah. It makes me

just say last I get it. The body has to assimilate. Yeah. To that, and it has to be done in a way that actually honors the pace. Yeah,

I agree. 100%. The, what I'm experiencing this moment around it is like a simmering like a simmering in the in the in the entering into that I have been entering into for a long time, but I feel like I just have a little toe. But like there's this simmering there before taking the next nickel forward.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So there's a lot there. And traditions that emphasize things like devotion. come from a very heart oriented space. People love their Rumi and their Hafez and their Sufis who are drunk and ecstasy and God and life and you know, that's lovely. And so in that heart space is a lot of celebration and ecstasy and also while their poems are about the deep love and and because of the heart opens up that way. That's where immense compassion comes from. To really see the the profound feel the profound depths itself, right? Yeah. Yeah. And as much as we can handle it for a bit, yeah, the mind might see it, be aware of it. The heart has more of a feel this especially in a man, that definitely turns up to temperature.

And there's something in the feeling to me that's like, the feeling. Oh, how do I put words to this? I guess there's a feeling of the, because I feel it from a place of Oh, it's this isn't the star of my life, that feeling it? And then putting art of being able to articulate it as like, oh, how do I do that? I guess what I want to say is it's not me being, you know, entangled in the feeling of it. Yeah. Right. So seeing the pain of the world and being entangled in it and feeling like I have to do something about it. Taking on everyone else's stuff. It's not that I can tell you what it's not. So I just wanted to name that as like when we feel feel that it's not that we're feeling everyone else's pieces. It's more just we are it you know, we are at but we're not in, in grossed by it or taken down by it. Or it has a different quality, if you have words for that. Because I find

that really brilliant that's really important and subtle, what you're pointing out. In spiritual traditions, the classic image for this dimension we're talking about is like the great all loving mother, like a mother Mary, or a Columbian or someone. Yeah, so that feeling of a mother or ultra loving parents, who would be holding a child that's like having a tantrum, or a Fender scraped their knee or whatever. They're not, as you said, taken down by it. They're there and fundamentally study and our load, save space and the child could cry and be held them and relax. Yeah. And so it's something like that. I think.

It's kind of like the empathic witness, but in the sorrow and in that love, like, it's, it's those layers, right? It's just like, yeah, yeah.

And again, it's not by our efforting and our will, we're really talking here about, like, the spiritual parts of us that already somehow noted to that. Yes, yeah. And just kind of relaxing into that. Yeah. So the heart is a fascinating one. And the traditions of tantra and alchemy come from here, you know, like, fears and our teacher and angers my teacher. And you know, like, the things that arise in our experience are already connected because it didn't some see with all things we're not looking to be like, I'm the good spiritual student and then I only feel this stuff when I don't feel it laughs often I only do this I'll lay no Welcome to humanity back to humanity to the whole and being conditioning here. And so love to have it embraced by and pervaded by unconditional love. And that does great smell coming out does create some magic, but it's being embraced by love. It's not being overwritten or anything.

Like Exactly, yeah. Including

our desires and our sexuality and all the funds Yeah, like all the logistics it's like all of it gets to be part of the equation. Yeah.

100% Yeah,

and then I got that oh this one too has its own kind of visceral or raw quality but it's different than the heart. The heart has more than like, joy and sorrow and compassion. All that guy's more like, just sent over that really wrong, primordial forms of like, yes and no to life. Like, really, in depth and mystery of existence like, just full stop. So is it begins to unravel in the space of wholeness. Its characteristic qualities are like the ground of being or like complete silence and still Actually a lot of conservatives just really, really quiet. But that also means encountering, like, Mattis, that feeling Tom and I got level tone, you know, primordial sensations of contraction. And and this is again, why titration. And so, and there's no argument here, like somebody should go to one, like, that's not arguing, like, they'll just say, hey, here's a map. And if somebody already happens to find themselves for whatever sets of reasons undergoing this kind of thing, here's a map to help support somebody. Yeah. In such a process. Yeah, it's, it's a space of pretty raw fear, that needs to be defended. And, but also on the other side of that is a lot of serenity and a deep, sort of, yes to life. But he got to by first finding and making friends with that, and not trying to fix that, and agenda change, and all the things we've been saying and like, and that's an interesting process, to be sure. But something does release there that allows us to feel like wonder and awe, and a sense of real luminosity in existence.

The word that keeps showing up for me in it, too, is like, just beingness. Yeah, it's a real beingness to it. Yeah.

To really settle down into the root of our being and really said, proceed and be like, I'm actually here. President accounted for and we're going in movable stillness in our being a real steal point or center point. That's the winds can you know, whatever, three little pigs the one who built the house out of bricks? Or whatever the house like COVID down?

It's not going anywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you for going through that map, sharing the pieces there. I, I, for me, like having conversations like this, or like, this is where I love reading, when I'm ready to read certain things. Like the gene keys is a great example of that, like I read, read something and those that don't know about gene keys. That's another episode. But reading in general, it's like when I read a nugget, and it lands in such a way where there's an embodied knowing of the information, right. And that's really my hopes with this podcast, too, is like, as we're having these conversations, that it's not just information that's being retained, but that there's this opportunity for people to notice if there's an actual response that they have when they hear us talk about this stuff, right? That's like, ooh, that headpiece that being up in the mountain like, oh, yeah, I know, I know that. And I can now have more words to it and understand it more consciously. Or now I have this curiosity around the heart and the rawness there and, and yeah, so my hopes are that our conversation in many ways, because we covered a lot has poked something internal that has sparked a deeper understanding of someone's experience. And I know you'll be back on this podcast. I mean, I hope you will, but

it's very kind.

Is there anything else you wanted to name or share before we wrap up

selecting to just want to highlight or reinforce a point that I think came up many many times and just keep circling back to it because it goes so against the grain of the cultural conditioning? Yeah, whether that secular conditioning or spiritual personal growth conditioning by God shows up canola replace with different versions is that the first step is fundamental and assurance and self acceptance and really unconditional positive, okay, as some like, well beingness as the space of actual transformation. Then the alchemy really happens then things can actually move and evolve and they do and there is courage and there is like all that stuff still gets to be there. Probably does, but it's coming from a place that feels it's like it's been marinated in there Freshman and for those people so under appreciated.

Yeah, no, I agree. It's definitely under appreciated. I was just gonna say for those people that are like, but how do I do that?

Yeah

seven min magical. Yeah. It's really more to go. Yeah, it is the classic conundrum or paradox. But it's really more about giving ourselves a green light to have the current experience that we have. So long as I will add with a caveat. So long as that experience is not like in full on dysregulation, that would be a specific, different thing. And then there's like, emergency call scenario. But assuming we're not talking about that we're just talking about every day. We're all trying to do our best kind of thing. And memos are ups and downs, whatever. Yeah. Then the green light, to actually just, it's actually okay to feel whatever you're feeling or as much as you feel. And even if it means you're not feeling a lot at the moment that start there. And it's so warm witness. I think that's an important points and you're the nurturance it's, it's a witnessing, that's intimacy with all things is fancy, just like it's a witness that's not way up on the mountaintop far away looking in a kind of clinical way. Well, notice there are feelings, uh huh.

But I notice the protection in between feelings and sitting on the top of them.

It's a, it's a closeness. It's a very warm, befriending welcoming, being with curiosity, warmth, curiosity. And that is something we can slowly cultivate. It's also as it turns out, in a graceful way, it's actually part of our organic makeup with seamounts Bakley. Yeah. So we're really just trying to relearn a native language or trying to reconnect to a part of us that maybe has gone to sleep a little bit or got trained out of us, but it's not learning something new. It's just helping to reinvigorate something that's organic to our being. Yeah,

exactly. That's, I think that's why I really like the words The Empathic witness, because you can relate a little bit to like, what that might feel like, right? Or what that might be like, and it's like, okay, like, it's in us all to be that. We just have to remember how, how to create, create the space to find that or be that again?

Yeah, yeah. So beautiful, uniform, great.

My guess would be that, you know, the more people listen to content that resonates with them, accessing that, like, that's why I'm so grateful for your subs facts, like the the endless opportunities that you invite people to, to access that is, yeah, you can get lost on Christmas have snacks for sure.

I started my process video on somewhere 16 pretty seriously. So it's coming up on 30 years, and I know of pretty intense investigation. So this is kind of my opportunity to give back as a way of saying thanks for all the teachers and learnings I've had over the years, most formative years, which had been immense and just to try to like and in particular, like, just don't do it the way I like. Totally out of order. I mean, if people do like yeah, control that, but it's generally it's an argument for like, it doesn't have to go is topsy turvy as it was for me.

Thanks for doing it topsy turvy, so learn not to

listen to negative polarity. That's my hope over the next however long it takes me a couple of years or whatever it is. I don't have a strict timeframe, but basically to try to put back out everything I've ever learned. We've that was kind of its legacy. The legacy Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's so helpful. So thank you, thank you for sharing.

And I'm so excited for you. And this is such a cool idea. You're just so gifted on that sets. There's just a natural fit. So great.

Thank you. I'm excited to to be showing up in this way. Especially after the last three plus years. It was just like whoa, Who the hell am I really? What is happening here? What is this human experience? Yeah, so great to be coming coming out of the other side. Maybe we'll see what happens.

Creating that's a very good indicator.

Yeah, exactly. Even though it's pulling teeth sometimes it's happening. Yeah. Well thank you so much Chris.

Thanks for having me and thanks I really blessing base for everybody.

Yeah