Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go | Julie Winkle Giulioni

Julie Winkle Giulioni is my guest today, Julie is a champion for workplace growth and development. And you'll hear that in everything she has to share in this episode, she presents a practical, simple organic way for time constrained leaders to develop their team members in meaningful ways. And she tells us why it's so critical to do so. I'm glad you're here to learn from Julie.

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where you hear real life stories of top leaders achieving extraordinary results. And you get practical advice and techniques, you can immediately apply for your own success. This is where you will get inspired. And take bold, courageous action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host, Amy Riley. Now, are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most? Let's ignite the Courage of a Leader.

Julie, I am so glad that you are here to record an episode with me for the courage of a leader podcast. Thanks for making the time. Oh, my

Julie Winkle Giulioni: goodness. Thank you, Amy. I've been looking forward to this. Yes, I'm excited

about the conversation that we are going to have. Julie, you have great expertise, we could have talked about a number of things leadership related today. But we are going to talk about the courage, what it takes, why it's important how we do it, to develop others. And I wanted to start off by acknowledging that there are some real factors that could deter a leader from investing in the development of others. First of all, many leaders have full plates, and busy roles, right? It's an it's it can be hard to find the time and it does take time and effort and thought and a leader could develop someone up and out of their group, right, which causes turnover, loss of productivity. I mean, you could also spend time developing someone and then they take those skills and knowledge and they leave your company and take it to another company. So whether leaders are conscious, fully conscious about these things that can deter us from developing others, they can be there in the space. So I wanted to start with the why question. Why is it important for leaders to help their team members grow and develop?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Well, Amy, and you have just totally set the table for us first, because you're so right. There are lots of things that are getting in the way of leaders having that kind of courage. And the research that I did on my first book, we actually quantify that we found that time was three to one, the biggest inhibitor managers just found that career development development of their people, it just kept moving down the list. It wasn't the squeaky wheel, you know, like Yeah, widgets every day. And then the fear factor that you mentioned, so many leaders were aware of the potential downside of engaging with your folks helping them grow, making them more attractive to be, you know, tucked down the highway or the hallway, you know, in relation to to another team or something. And, and yet we know that the only thing that's more dangerous than talking to your people about developing the developing your people is withholding that. Nice to get to your question the why there is an absolutely inextricable link between development, engagement and retention. Okay, and leaders who are fearful about engaging in development, they are coming at this from exactly the wrong angle. When leaders are generous when they invest their time when they offer resources and opportunities and experiences to those who report to them. Yeah, in some cases, they will develop people who are going to move on, but they also develop people who feel deeply loyal to him. And the reputation that a leader has as a developer is communicated far and wide. So those folks who do it well, how they're going to lose some folks, but they are going to have the kind of reputation that will attract top talent to them. So they'll Have that pipeline to be able to, to keep the lights on and the wheels on the bus and the business flowing. Very

important, Julie, what you've said already. So first of all leaders, if you find yourself struggling with the time to do this and do this well, if you find yourself fearful, in some ways, know that you're not alone. And we want to step through that fear those concerns because, Julie, this is really great, what you said development has a real data proven tie to engagement, to retention, right, so we increase our chances of retaining team members, when we engage in development, we also get loyalty. And we also get known as that leader who cares and is giving attention and is developing their people.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: You can build it. That really

great, Julie, let me take just a moment and tell our listeners a little bit more about you. Julie Winkle Giulioni is my guest today. I'm so glad that she's a champion for workplace growth and development and helps executives and leaders optimize talent within their organizations. One of Inc Magazine's Top 100 speakers, she's the author of Promotions Are So Yesterday: Redefined Career Development. Help Employees Thrive. And she's the co author of the international best seller, Help Them Grow Or Watch Them Go: Career Conversations Employees Want. The book has been translated into seven languages. Congratulations, so glad that message is getting out. Julie is a regular columnist for Training Industry magazine and Smartbrief and contributes articles on leadership, career development and workplace trends to numerous publications, including The Economist. We are lucky to have her and her expertise today on the courage of a leader podcast.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Thank you so much, Amy. Yeah. Julie,

my next question, so so it's important, we want to do it. How? How do we do it? Well,

Julie Winkle Giulioni: you know, and that's the that is a big question that needs to be answered. Because the other reason we found managers leaders didn't engage in development is they didn't know how, yeah, we know many folks have come up through the ranks without a lot of good modeling. They haven't experienced that really dynamic capacity building development that we want to need in today's workplace, and so that you don't know what to do. And the truth is the how tos are far simpler than we might expect. At the end of the day, what I've really come to understand is that development is a relationship, if ultimately, it's a relationship between the manager and that the individual. And it's a relationship that plays out through conversation. Yep. And so the how associated with development is just start talking to people to start. Start talking to your folks, and ask them questions about what's interesting, what they're loving, which skills they're enjoying bringing to bear what they feel like their strengths and superpower powers are really helped them understand more about who they are and what they're bringing to the table, talk to them about what's going on in the business, so that they have that bigger perspective within which to fit their contributions. You're talking to them about the challenges and what's around the corner and how strategies are changing really gives them the guardrails for being able to plan meaningful development that serves their needs. But also it has got to be reciprocal, that also serves the organization's needs. And then we start having these conversations, we start to see where the overlap is and where what I want to do, what I love to do how we want to grow, is going to support the team in the organization. And then that's just an irresistible value proposition all the way around. I

love how you have laid this out for us, Julie. Development is in relationship. So know that trust that leaders and then just start talking and you're talking about a dialog, asking them questions, their interests, their strengths, how they're doing, how they see their role, and then give information, what's going on in the business strategies that information that you have is Leaders and are expected to trickle down right? Share what's going on, share what you see from your view. And then you can start to talk about where did those pieces overlap? How do you team member contribute your strengths and your interests to what's going on in the business. And then that can naturally lead to development conversations.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: As you were talking about the information that we as leaders have, I think a lot of times we think everybody understands that everybody knows, they don't obviously, it also, I think a lot of times that kind of future focus, outward focus, strategic focus, we kind of think of that as a domain of strategic planning, you know, those big executive sorts of activities, when the truth is, that is exactly, you know, demographic changes, socio economic changes, geopolitical stuff that's going, that all actually informs strategic development as well. That is going to help people future proof their careers, help them contribute more effectively, to really be part of the solution for the future.

Yeah, really great. And I am also hearing and wanting to highlight in this, the way that you are encouraging leaders to engage in these conversations to start these conversations and relationships. You don't need to know out of the gate where it's headed. You're co creating this with the team member. So you don't have to feel like okay, I know all the perfect questions to ask I know where what direction to point this employee, I have development opportunities in my back pocket ready to go from the start? That is going to emerge through the dialogue and the relationship?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Yeah, yeah. In fact, who will frequently tell folks that this kind of approach that we're talking about, where you really leading with questions, and you're making it a dialogue, that takes so much pressure off the manager off the supervisor off the leader shoulders? Because they don't have to have all the answers, they don't have to have any of the answers, they've got to have some really great questions at the end of the dang, thing is I have never and I have spoken with 1000s of employees over the course of this work that I do. I have never had anyone say, I didn't like the quality of that conversation or employees are happy with clunky and elegant, you know, what was starts and stops. And you know, all of that, what they complain about is not having it the quantity to her manager who's afraid and they're gonna do it, right. Imperfect is better than x. Terrific, terrific, we don't have to worry about getting this done perfectly. We have that intention to start this conversation, and to find ways to develop and grow the employer and the employee, however, that might look. And it does start with intention doesn't end. I mean, that's really kind of the core of courageous leadership is the intention that we bring. And I frequently talk, when I'm talking with leaders alike about feedback, you know, we're also worried are we going to get a formula, right? Are we going to say everything, the right words, and I don't really think you could totally foul up the conversation. And if in your heart, you're there to serve the other person to help them be better. And if you're coming from the right place, and you've got the right intentions, words, they're secondary. The intention is what shines through when people here couldn't

agree more, Julie, we can all probably think of a situation where someone seemingly did and said all the right things, but we didn't buy it. We couldn't feel the intention, the sincerity there. And we could probably think of a situation where someone we respect because we know their heart and their head and their intentions, and they didn't do it quite right. And we forgive them that

Julie Winkle Giulioni: and still can get the message and the value out of that. Yeah.

So we're not worried about doing it perfectly. Folks. Can you tell us Julie about with things have shifted in our world recently, I and maybe initiated by our pandemic recently, what employees want and need from their work, what constitutes meaningful work, employees are looking at you know, how does this work in my life and with my aspirations? What does development look like? Today, what can be the range of how development looks and feels?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Yeah, yeah. And you're so right, I think the complexion of the development landscape has been in flux for a bit. And certainly the the time during the pandemic and all being sent to our corners, and that time has just sort of accelerated some of those changes. So that employees today are, you know, after looking in the mirror, kind of confronting our mortality, in many cases, employees are wanting that 40 or 60, or 80 hours that they're spending at work to mean something. Yeah, they're looking to their jobs to do a different job for them in many cases. And so as we look at employees today, there's a huge need for a sense of purpose, to really make a difference to make that time count, we're hearing from employees and amplified need to grow skills, abilities, capabilities, because I mean, you're looking at just the speed at which AI, for instance, is accelerating, he's clear that the world is on a fast track. And if we're not keeping up with that we're gonna fall behind and skills that they feel that we're, the one thing that my research has really surprised me about is the demand the interest that people had in a higher degree of contentment around their work, that sense of meaning, and joy, and ease and balance that we're all looking for, probably in response to these last several years. Also an awareness that, you know, our confidence may not be where it needs to be. And it's really interesting to see in many organizations, our competence has kind of been shaken. And again, as we look at an uncertain future, it's easy to feel a little wobbly, when it comes to all of that needing to to be set up, employees are looking for ways to have more autonomy, more authority, more decision making, you know, they want to be boss to them. And that's certainly playing out in terms of the the work from home remote, hybrid tug of war we continue to engage in. So employees are when they come to the workplace, they're looking for a different, a bigger, expansive experience for careers and their development. Yeah,

well said, and more of the why, why this is so important, because employees want purpose they want to grow. And they want to do so in a way that gives them contentment. That is an excellent word. I'm looking for that autonomy, that decision making, not just being someone that executes directives that come down to me, right, so I'm hearing some ways can be more involvement, more ownership, more participation in decision making, or more opportunity to own and make the decisions? Yeah, how else might envelopment? Look?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Well, and all of that becomes then so much barter for growth opportunities and experiences and the development itself. Because when you think about just the the autonomy piece of that, wow, that if I'm going to start making next level decisions, I need next level awareness, I need an ad, global context, I need to understand implications. I need to understand how all the pieces of this puzzle fit together. So if I change this, what are the consequences for that I need to start thinking about risk mitigation. All sorts of next level skills surround that. And so a smart leader who's working with an employee who through the conversation you get at Hey, autonomy choice, really important to this person, expand and elevate that person's experience of the job through expanded decision making, grow that person in all of these wraparound ways. And I mean, boy, that is not what leadership is all about. Driving the business deriving the guru.

Yes, yes. And again, you're giving us some great access points. Julie. How does this team member want to make a difference? Right, how do we how do we open up those opportunities? How can we give this team member autonomy? Bring them into the next level decisions, right and then they're gonna need to understand what they need to understand and develop the skills that they need to develop in order to step into that next level of work. And that's a way to have it be organic. Julie, I think sometimes people are looking to create these artificial ways to develop a skill or do something different. But if you bring them in to that next level of work, and are doing it, then I've got to know how to operate in new ways.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: That's right. And it really becomes something very different than a one size fits all, you know, I've got this experience, and I'm gonna give it to you to accomplish this, or I've got this workshop, and you're gonna go to it, it becomes much I love, I've loved that word organic. It bubbles up around the needs, the interests and the work in a way that, you know, we were talking earlier about managers not having a lot of time, let's face it, employees don't either, they're not lollygagging around. And so for them for development to work at the speed of business. For them, it's kind of be embedded in the work and this sort of a stealth embedded in role growth opportunity can fit their limited time to develop as well as developing

on the job. Like, in your role,

Julie Winkle Giulioni: that job right in workflow. So the development becomes the work and the work becomes the development, it almost becomes indistinguishable at some point.

I love that it's not this separate development plan where I've gotta go, and I gotta read this book, I gotta take this class, although we have a couple of books that would

Julie Winkle Giulioni: have authored classes, they're good to tip of the iceberg. You know, they really are the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more that managers have at their fingertips, you know, if we get to know the person and get creative and CO create something. Yes.

And training learning experiences, books that you read, they're so much more relevant, because you're applying them to the expanded role that you have. Yeah. And then I'm assuming, Julie, the dialogue continues from there, right? Like what's working? What are you learning, right, and you might be engaging in what some might call coaching conversations or feedback conversations, but the dialogue, and the co creation just continues.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: So important, you're right. It's not like we got a plan together, you've got your marching orders, my work here is done. Leaders work is never done when it comes to development. Because, gosh, there's a great quote, and I'm not going to remember it. But essentially, it's, it has to do with the fact that development is really only half done with whatever the experience might be, okay? It's from reflecting on and extracting lessons from that activity or experience or event. That's where learning really happens. And given how busy people are today, the truth is the the art of reflection is kind of a dying art these days, don't take the time to step back. And for a leader to even in a two minute conversation, hit the pause button and say, What are you learning? What have you discovered this week? Timing, it doesn't have to be an hour away from work and a quarter of two minutes will force the employee to pause to take a breath and think, Okay, I did come up with this insight as a result of this. So here's the challenge. And here's how I work through it. And when we start meaning that, then it goes into our repository of learnings, actions, things that we can draw upon, again, rather than just getting kind of lost in the shuffle, and then we move on to the next activity. It gets

embedded. Yeah. So Leaders Ask one to a couple reflective questions about the experiences your team members are having.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Yeah, so we groups can also model that kind of reflection, you know, had leaders who really set the bar and taught me about the discipline of reflection, by simply sharing what their processes are, or coming to meetings, saying, you know, after reflecting upon yourself side, some time to think about that, and here are some of the things that I came up with. One leader in particular was just the most mindful, thoughtful person around and I really began to appreciate from being on the other side Get and seeing the results that she created. And starting to absorb some of that, you know, you don't do it nearly as well as she does. Totally aspirational, but absorb some of that into my DNA in my approach with my own folks.

Really great. We can role model that process for team members. Julie, so much great information you have given us, I'm going to ask you one more question to see if there's any more advice we can pull out of you, because this has been such great stuff. So let's say I'm a leader listening to this podcast on a mid level leader, I've got eight direct reports, time feels stretched, my workplace is full. What what's most important, what would be your advice? What's the first thing I that leader does?

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Right? Think of that leader? took the time to even on a spreadsheet or on a notes page or on a old school piece of paper? Yeah, jot down those eight people's names. Yeah. And then over the course of the next week, just find an excuse to chat informally, with each person, find one question about how they're connected to their work, what they're loving, where the challenges might lie something. And make a note about that. Next week, look at those notes, and loop back to the person. And said, last week, you'd mentioned you're being challenged by this particular client, just wondering, how's it going this week? That kind of bread of dialogue, the ongoing and again, short, three minutes four minute conversation, we're not talking about an hour out of the calendar, those kinds of ongoing regular touch points on an informal level, that show the continuity of understanding, when a boss comes back and follows up on something like that, that isn't mission critical stuff. It's not like how are you on your deadline? Yeah, well, after stuff that's operating in the background, that sends set a powerful message to the employee about respect and care, it builds trust, it builds loyalty. And it just keeps opening the door to more and more of the dialogue that ultimately leads to the really meaningful nuggets, it can lead to powerful development.

Great advice, pragmatic advice, Julie, create your chart, wherever it works for you on paper, or electronically have those eight names. And then you said one question. And then looping back one follow up. And that will start to open up a dialog. I recommend this quite a bit like having charts about our team members, when you've got eight, five, even three team members and a lot going on, it can be easy to lose that thread. And then if you can keep just adding to that chart in moments, why observe them asking questions about this? Oh, I saw this strength. Whoa, I'm thinking of this opportunity to get so and so more involved in such and such. I am just expanding that chart. And those ideas for dialogue and growth over time.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Yeah, well, and what you've just described is exactly that organic process shared earlier. And it's doable, because it's we're talking little chunks of time, over time. Not huge two hour meetings, five minutes here, three minutes there. So finding those little shards of time and using them super productively mean it's the most effective way we could probably invest those couple of minutes of time in terms of really powerful organizational and individual results.

Thank you for this conversation today. Julie, you have given us very practical, pragmatic, easy to put into play a device about how to do something that is so critically important. Thank you for graciously sharing with the Courage of a Leader podcast listeners.

Julie Winkle Giulioni: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much, Amy.

My pleasure.

Thank you for listening to the Courage of a Leader podcast. If you'd like to further explore this episode's topic, please reach out to me through the Courage of a Leader website at www.courageofaleader.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please take the time to leave a review You're on iTunes. That helps us expand our reach and get more people fully stepping into their leadership potential. Until next time, be bold and be brave because you've got the courage of a leader.