Redefining Success: Pivoting a Thriving Venture for Personal Alignment with Jason Phillips

I'm Kinsey Machos, your host and founder of the category Queen. Welcome to the podcast for coaches, consultants, and course creators who don't just want to dominate their niche, but they desire to play in their own league. My mission is to help you unlock the power of your unique brilliance and use it as a vehicle to gain recognition, reach more people, and make more money. Not too long ago, I took a bold leap, leaving behind a six figure corporate salary with nothing more than a used MacBook and a burning desire for more freedom. Today, our brand has become globally recognized, helping thousands of female founders to become industry leading experts. Join us each week as we go on a journey together to discuss mindset, marketing and money, and more importantly, the real life discussions about balancing success with motherhood and marriage.

Because we're a community of women who build and scale impact driven businesses, but do it without sacrificing the things that matter most to us. Welcome to the category Queen show welcome back to the category Queen show. My fellow category queens, I am so excited for this conversation that you're about to plug into because it is one of my favorites. You're going to hear from Jason Phillips, who's the founder of the Nutritional Coaching Institute, which is a multi million dollar coaching company and has been wildly successful. But why I had Jason on this show was because I have been watching from the sidelines as he has really hit the peak of that business and also in that same time starting to make transitional pivots to realign with the new season of life that he's in.

So he talks about his journey from really starting out as a coach and just wanting to help people and how he had to really shift the way that he thought about his business in order to make his first million. And then he starts to really talk about, you know, what those, what that momentum really created in that business and really at the peak of NCI, how he was feeling and the steps he decided to take as a result of that. He is now starting to take the steps to exit that business and has also started another endeavor to realign with his truest desires.

You are going to hear Jason really speak to what's important, what's not important, the things to consider as you're starting to build incredible momentum, not just in your business, but in your life, and to really be courageous enough to make those hard decisions and what that might even look ad feel like for you. I really am just so grateful for this conversation. I know it's going to be so inspiring for you whether you're in a season of reinvention or pivoting or you're feeling really burnt out in this season, I feel like this is a collective experience, sort of this need and desire to really just check in with ourselves, get back into alignment with the things that we love, and build a business that truly brings the lifestyle that we're all seeking. So I hope you enjoy. Let's dig in.

Hello, my fellow category queens. I am so excited to have an amazing guest on the show with me today. Jason, say hello.

What' going on? I amongst category queens. This is uncharted territory.

That's right. I was just telling Jason that Jason is the second male interview in, like, the four years, and it's been a while since our last one, and so I put a little pressure on you, but it's going to be such a beautiful conversation. I'm really excited to have you. And I just have to tell listeners how I met you, which probably was over, gosh, close to two years now. I think the first time we met, it was at an in person mastermind through traffic and funnels. At the time, I believe it was before the shift. And Jason just came up to me. We were doing one of those terrible networking exercises or something, the things that we all hate. But then we realized we needed that. We needed to connect with other people.

And there was something, I think, that you've said to me, and I followed up with a comment that you had made, and you just unpacked everything. You were just like, here's this, here's how we do this. And I was so intrigued, and I just kept asking you questions and you can't. You kept answering my questions. And ever since, I think you've just been, like I told you just have this heart of service, and I've always been drawn to that. And as I've been watching you really shift and go through this next season of growth and scale, which is going to be very different for you, and we're going to talk about that. I really wanted to have you on to share about that and what that journey has been like.

And so I'm just so grateful that you're here and I'm excited to unpack some of these things. But first, why don't you tell our audience who you are and what you do?

Yeah. So, first of all, thank you for that. Super kind. Second of all, I am, I guess I'm the CEO and founder of the nutritional Coaching Institute, which is the second largest nutritional certification in the world. Our competitor has, like, 20 years in the game before us. We're gaining on them. But I am a former anorexic, so when I was 18 years old, I had an eating disorder. I was 118 pounds, and it was a coach that saved me and really changed the trajectory of my life. I was fortunate enough to overcome that, and I changed my major in college. I went and got my degree in exercise science with concentration in fitness and nutrition. And it was really in school that I realized just how much I loved helping people. You know, it was like the frat boys putting on muscle.

It was like the culinary girl that lived next door that made my food so I could help her, like, lose weight. It was anybody that would, like, listen, anybody that would talk shop. Like, I was willing to talk. I was willing to give them what I knew, and I just. I loved it, and I knew that was the vehicle that I was going to use for service for my entire life. You know, I didn't know. I didn't know what that meant from a career, but I knew that meant, like, I was going to use the vehicle of health and fitness to serve. And it was a rocky road for quite some time. I left school, and were talking about golf. I actually tried to play professionally for two years. I was, like, the worst pro to ever make it pro.

And I kept dabbling in the quote unquote business side. I genuinely loved the service side more than I loved the business side. And so if it involved this kind of conversation, it was like, let's do it all day. But if it involved, like, numbers and p and ls and marketing and sales, like, I didn't want anything to do with it. And so, you know, I found myself, in 2014, overdrawn in my bank account on Thanksgiving Day. And so. But to make things worse, it was no ordinary Thanksgiving. I was on a date, and were in copper, Colorado, and this was the first, like, away trip I had done with my girlfriend. And so, like, here I am. I go in, I go to get my morning Starbucks. I get declined for a $3.67 cup of coffee, and I was like, awesome. This sucks.

And so I was about to have to tell her that I had no money. And so here Starbucks was inside of a grocery store. We're, like, walking up and down the aisles of Safeway, and I'm like, I have to tell this person before we get to the checkout that I'm overdrawn on my bank account, that you're dating a degenerate that has absolutely nothing. And somehow before we got to the register, a $500 check cleared in my account and it's like, it's a bank holiday. It's not supposed to happen. You're not supposed to get paid. Cash isn't supposed to show up. There's no way in the world in 2014 that cash just magically appears in your account. But it did.

And, you know, I went back to Starbucks and I paid for my coffee because karma, and then, like, I left and I paid for the groceries and I was able to find my way through the weekend and. But it was like, that was like the pivotal moment for me. It was like, you know, some higher power told me that you're supposed to go all in on service. And I went home and I said, I'm going to use service as the vehicle to not just change lives, but also change my own life. And twelve months later, I had made a million dollars from coaching people. Three years later, I had a consulting company that was doing a $3 million. I launched nutritional coaching institute in 2017 and we've grown and scaled that company to multiple eight figures and we're on the verge of an exit.

So I guess, you know, I guess being anorexic, you know, set me up for some crazy and different things in life, but I would never wish it on my own worst enemy. But I think God gave it to me as. Because he knew I was strong enough, he knew I would use it as a vehicle of service and I really genuinely believe that's what I was put on this earth to do.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. What an incredible journey. And I think so many people can resonate with this, especially coaches. It's like, I just want to help people. Like, I don't want to worry about marketing, I don't want to worry about sales. I don't want to look at a P and L. I just want to help people. But like that and I think that will get you to a certain point, but then the bottom will fall out. Right. Which is what you would experience. How did you make those shifts to going negative bank account to in three years at $3 million to then eight figures, to be able to have the skills needed to be the CEO of your business?

Because I imagine, obviously, it didn't happen overnight, but what was the mindset that you had to create in order to still lead with service but then also be that steward of your company that you needed to be?

Yeah. It's interesting because I think that if you asked me honestly, I think I would tell you that I still lack the skills to be the CEO. So I'm not sure that I've ever fully identified as that or in that role. I still very much think of myself as I almost call myself, like the CVO, which is like the chief visionary officer. I think one thing I've always had a really good grip on is the vision of our industry specifically. And I think it's because I was the customer that was in need. I needed someone to save me. I needed, I didn't just need more knowledge, I needed somebody to help me come apply the knowledge. I needed somebody to come and work with me.

And so I think I've always had the vision as to like, I can see what's happening in the space and I can create where I believe the product should go. Now, I was also intelligent enough to surround myself with some really good people. And so you've always, from day one, had mentorship. I think that, I know it's very cliche for people in our positions to talk about mentorship, but I don't think it's cliche because I think it's true. I genuinely, with everything in me, believe that mentorship is. It's the cheat code. I think there are people out there that will, they've made the mistakes that you're going to make and you can learn from them so that you don't have to make them. So that was a big component and I think that.

But I've always just had this weird naivete in my life that I can do anything. At some point I thought it was a bad thing. I was like, gosh, I have this false bravado, or I'm very braggadocious. And I honestly tried to beat it out of myself. I didn't like it because I didn't want it to come off as inauthentic. And now I think it's just a true component of the authenticity that I carry, which is I do believe anything is possible. When I first started playing soccer at four years old, I was like, I'm going to be a pro soccer player.

And maybe that's just something kids say, but I played for the US in 2000 and then in high school, the very first time I picked up a golf club, the summer between my 8th grade and 9th grade year, I went to the driving range. I missed the ball more times than I hit it. And we left there, me and my friend. And I was like, I'm gonna be a pro golfer. And he was like, you suck. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm gonna be a pro. And I just, it was like, again, like, I don't know what it is, but I think that I just recognize that if somebody has done it, there's a path to doing it. And my job is to say, like, if this is the North Star, if this is the destination, there are likely several different paths there.

I need to find mine. And I've always believed that to be true. And I carried that over to business. And I think if you studied how I built everything, it's very non traditional. I don't think they would ever put it in a book. I don't think they would ever use it as advice. I don't think I should be used as a case study. But I did it my way. And I think that's the big learning thing. And I think that now, as a mentor to others, I think that's what I carry over so frequently, which is, like, your way matters. And, you know, if you know anything about my message today, which is your business should only bring two things, which is happiness and profits. Your way, it has to matter. And so that's really it. Like, that's. That's kind of how I operate.

That's so good. And I love this idea of, like, chief visionary officer. And I think that I totally resonate with this. I have this, like, very grandiose thinking. It's like, kind of like, oh, if I can see it, then I can have it. Or if I can see it in my mind, then it is possible for me. And also just having these hits, it's like, I woke up one day and I was like, I really want to do triathlon. I hate swimming, I hate biking, and I hate running. But, yeah, it was placed on my heart for a reason, I think, because I like to challenge myself and I want to push. It's like I always want to push myself to or through that upper limit of what I like, what my current version of self thinks is possible.

And so I totally resonate with what you're saying. I'm curious, though, for people that may not feel that way, do you feel like people are born that way? Or do you feel like maybe people suppress sort of these bigger visions that they have for their life and or business?

Such a good question. I think every. I think everyone's born with the ability to dream because I think. Have you ever met a child that doesn't think that there's nothing they can do? You've never seen a child that's trying to learn to walk and they don't fall, and then they don't try again. And then you've never seen a child that's walking and inevitably runs into something, and it's not like they just stopped walking. The human brain, I think, is, and I'm not a psychology major, and so don't take anything I say about the brain as facts. This is my opinion. But in my experience, the brain is wired to see possibility. And I actually think so many of us have life experience that, for whatever reason, has a self limiting possibility.

Now, it's weird, because I'm in a different phase of my life, where I almost think that I intentionally now need to self limit possibility because all of the possibility in the world is not the right possibility. And we can talk about the different seasons of business. When my business was at its peak doing $1.7 million a month, I was not my happiest. I will no longer ever exchange revenue and or profits for happiness. And so just because it's possible for me to build a 50 million or $100 million enterprise does not mean that's what aligns with what I desire. And so it's this weird, delicate dance of what's possible versus what do I desire versus what will provide me the things that I want in life.

Yeah, that's so good. And I think, too, Jason, to kind of go deeper on that, I always, you know, you've made several comments around, you know, your business should bring you happiness. And also, I think that based even on what you've said about the seasons of business, do you feel like we still have to go through the grind and those, like, peak seasons where we're, you know, maybe peak in revenue, but we're, like, were in the valley of death as far as our own emotional or mental well being.

Do we need, do we have to go through those to have that contrast in our lives of, like, what we actually want versus what we don't want to be able to get to the other side of, like, here's sort of this ecosystem I've created that is bringing me happiness, or can somebody create that from the get go?

I think you can create it from the get go if you're aware of it. The problem is. So I think if were to go to any business school, traditional and or Internet and very big difference, right? But, like, let's just say we go to Harvard and we enter in the. Into the MBA program. I'm never qualified to go to Harvard. I never will. I'm, like, dumber than this. Like, you know, like, the dumbest person there is forgotten more than I'll ever know. Right. And so. But my assumption is that in none of those classes do they say, as you're building out this business, macroeconomic, microeconomic statistics, blah, blah, do they ever talk about personal happiness? Like, I don't think that's in the curriculum.

Right.

And when I got into the guru world online and I hired all of my mentors.

Yeah.

I never was talked to about happiness. I was talking about mindset and having positive mindset and morning routines and this and that, but I was never talked to about actual happiness and fulfillment. And, you know, I think it's why it's such a big part of my message now, which is I've built. I'll give you a great example. I've built million dollar businesses for many people, and I recently had a client come to me. I don't know, eight weeks ago, he came and did a private day with me here in Virginia. And we're sitting there, and the first 20 minutes, all I'm hearing is everything that he doesn't like about his business. And this is a million dollar, top line business. And I'm like, dude, you should just shut it down. And he's like, wait, seriously? And I'm like, yeah.

And I'm like, you could rebuild your level of profitability without any of the things that you don't like. And I think we could do it inside of six months. Like, when I tell you watched a human go from this to like. Like that. Like, it was wild. He said that he called his wife that night on facetime, and she's like, you look lighter.

Wow.

And it was like someone needed to give him the permission to be happy. And. And then, you know, obviously, he's been in the game quite some time. And so, you know, I don't have proof that says that it's doable, but I have a very strong belief system that says that it is. I can tell you that. You know, I've got probably 120 clients that have started with me since the beginning of this year, and all of whom are living in the ethos of happiness.

So. Good. What does. Tell me more about fulfillment. What does that mean to you?

Yeah, you know, I think that. How do I say this? I don't want to say I was given bad advice, but I think that the industry had. I think the industry promoted the wrong things for quite some time. And I think that there are certain things that are assumed that should no longer be assumptions. And one of the assumptions is that everybody's chasing the most amount of money. And therefore, as an entrepreneur, you almost take on those assumptions as your own. And so I did that for a very long time. When I met you, I think I was doing a million a month, and I think that we got it as high as one seven ish a month. And everybody praised me in the industry for being at one point, oh, my God, he's a killer.

And I'm like, guys, I don't even like this. This isn't even fun. And I never said that publicly because I was like, honestly, at the time, I was afraid of being ridiculed. Like, oh, he's just miserable. He has so much money. And it was never about the money. But I also don't want to sit here and say I don't value the money because I'm sitting in the office of my dream home. My daughter will likely never have to worry about anything in her life. My family can take trips whenever we want, and, you know, I don't really have a lot of worries. And there's something to be said about that, too. And so I think fulfillment is truly sitting down and saying to yourself, you know, what is, what do I want? What makes me happy? And you'd be surprised.

I've asked on webinars in the last, I don't know, two, three months. Every time I go on a webinar, I said, well, you know, you're here to learn something, but my question to you is, what do you actually want? If I teach you this thing, I snap my fingers and I give you this skill, and you're the best in the world at it, what do you create? What, what do you want in your life? And, like, when I tell you the number of people that has been able to answer that question, it's astounding because the number is zero. Not a single person has been able to sit down and say, this is what I want for my life. And that was mind blowing to me.

And so I don't know if you follow Frank Kern, but Frank Kern gave a talk several years ago called core influence, and if you watch it, he actually talks about his perfect day and the whole thing. It's like a two hour long conversation. I can share the link with you. I have it saved as a tab. I watch it every other week just as, like, a reminder to myself. And if you watch it's through the lens of marketing, because at the very end, he talks about using your customers perfect day and selling to them through that. But if you watch the first hour and 40 minutes, and you don't watch the last 20. It's just a self development talk.

And it literally talks about how Frank made a lot of money, was miserable, realized there was way more to life, wrote out his perfect day, and then went and lived his perfect day. And I would challenge every single person listening to this right now to identify your perfect day. And I would say, like, what does that actually mean? And I'm not talking about, like, I'm not talking about anything, you know, surface level. I'm talking about, like, what is the, where's the house that you're waking up? Like, is it on a cul de sac? Is it on the street? Is it on a farm? Is it in a city? Like, what does it look like when you wake up? What are you looking at? Are you looking at the sun? Is it still dark outside? What does it smell like?

Is there coffee brewing in your house? Is there food from last night? What do you immediately do first thing in the morning? Are you taking a walk? Are you getting in the car? Are you just going and sitting on the couch? What are you consuming in that moment? And why are you consuming that? How does that make you feel? As you begin to enter your day? As you enter your day and you do your first major thing, how do you feel? Do you have excitement? Do you have trepidation? Are you doing that just to get it done so you can enjoy the day? And, like, we're not even an hour and a half into the day, and I've asked you more questions than you likely were going to identify in the first place. And people are like, oh, my gosh, I've never considered that.

And I'm like, then how can we ever wake up truly fulfilled? Because we haven't defined it for ourselves. And so that only leads me to believe that we're living very transactional lives, which is if I wake up today in a good mood, I'm in a good mood. If I wake up tomorrow in a bad mood, I'm in a bad mood. But how can you tell me, outside of statistics, which are okay, right, that things are good and bad, and the truth is we can't because we have north Star.

Wow, that was so good, Jason. Thank you for that. And I think that I'm always encouraging myself and my clients to do that same type of visualization because it's like, we have, we're really good at the big picture vision and at the surface, oh, I want to make one hundred k a month. Right. But, like, what does that actually mean for you? What are you doing each day? Do you want to work 40 hours a week or do you want to work 15? How do you, how do you want to be spending your time? And I think that gives people so much more clarity of, like, what they should actually be building and the type of business they should be, you know, building in order to support.

Support the lifestyle that they actually want, because it's not the money that's going to bring that, because if you don't know how to actually be in the life that you want to create, then the money just amplifies more of what you hate. Right? So I would imagine that if we go back to what you said at the peak of your business, you're at 1.7 million or so a month. I would imagine that you weren't living out your perfect day at that time. Tell me what you were feeling and experiencing, sort of to give us that contrast of what your life looked like in the day to day.

I felt like I was constantly looking for an escape, if I'm being honest. I felt like I was wanting to turn over as much as I could. And so I found myself reading things where people were like, outsource this, outsource that. And I'm like, see, this is what I'm supposed to do. And I justified my actions, but it was like, even at my peak, I don't know if you know this, but I actually had an offer to sell my business two years ago, and I engaged in it and I went through diligence, and there was a lot of money, and none of it was very fulfilling. And so it just, like. But I basically found myself trying to shock myself of any responsibility. I just. I didn't feel aligned.

But at the same time, again, like, I don't think any human is going to be like, but I won't take the money. So it was like, I'll gladly, you know, take the profits and try to get myself as far away from it as possible, which I can tell you is not a very good thing for business. Inevitably, it will all catch up. And, you know, I had to deal with the ramifications of that as well. I also entrusted the wrong people, as I did, that, I did not vet them properly. So I was putting people in to do things that were massively critical to the operations of the business, and they were the wrong people, and that was not good. And so it really put us into tough times. Candidly, I think that.

I don't think I've ever openly talked about the notion that we really went on the backside, but we did, and we really had to regroup and gather. And honestly, that's a. If I'm being totally honest, it's kind of where we are today. And it's like, again, I have an offer to sell on the table today. But also, part of me is like, okay, you're pretty good at this. You probably could do something much bigger and much cooler, and there's a story to tell. And I actually have this notion of my brand, my personal brand, I believe is meant to be happiness and profits. I think I meant to teach entrepreneurs that's truly the game, because that's how I see it anyway. And I'm not saying I'm right. That's just one human out of nine billion's opinion.

I never think that I'm any more right than another human being. But my opinion is that's what we should be seeking. And part of me wants to tell the story of rebuilding a multi million dollar empire, eight figure empire, on the tenants of happiness and profit. And I think there's a really cool opportunity there. Yeah. Like, I think that's just exciting. And I think it's. I wasn't excited then. I, again, I had all of the things that most people want, but you just find yourself in a position where you're like, what am I doing? Why does this matter? And it feels very empty.

Yeah, yeah. So walk us through then. So just from our context, like you said, you're going through the process of selling your business, exiting your business. But I would imagine there's some key steps that happened of, like, when the business was at what was at its peak, but you were at an all time low. And, like, what was sort of the high level steps from there to the point of really just being okay or making that decision to exit the business.

So it's interesting, and I think it's why I'm struggling so much with the exit, to be honest, is I made the decision to exit one day when I just woke up and was like, I'll sell it. Give me anything for it. I just don't want to do this anymore. And what I realized was, it wasn't that I don't want to do this. It was. I didn't want the stress that was remaining from the previous decisions. And that's more or less, like, irresponsible. And I'm kind of coming to grips with that. And it's like, listen, like, you made these decisions two years ago. You're paying the price now, and you're having to deal with it now, and you got to kind of work through it. I think the maturity in me wants to work through it.

And obviously, then I do see the opportunity of exiting and starting something different. But I think that, I don't know, there seems to be some unfinished business in my heart. Not saying I won't sell, I'm certainly not saying that. But I also do feel like a strong pull to there being some unfinished business and some things that I think. And at the end of the day, NCI was built on the, you know, what we call the billion person mission, which is we want to see 1 billion lives transformed through the vehicle of health and fitness. And we're not in a billion yet. And so part of me feels very incomplete. So I don't know. I think that. I think it's very normal to be very conflicted at critical times. I think that, you know, I can count.

I moved around a lot in my twenties, and I can count every single time that I moved. Right before I move, I'd be like, I'm really going to miss this place. And it was, like, so hard to, like, let it go. And now I think back and I'm like, gosh, I'm so glad I got out of there. But, you know, it's. I don't know. I think there's maybe just, like, emotional ties that you get to things. And so I'm. I try to give myself time to not be emotional about things. I don't. I don't make hasty decisions. And I used to. I used to be very reactive. I used to be very emotional. And so now, like, I won't make any immediate decisions.

I will allow myself to, you know, to really take space and to think, is this actually what I want, or did it feel good in the moment? And, you know, that's kind of where. Where we've been.

Yeah, that's. That's smart. It's hard. I think, too, you think about how much of you is in this business that you're about to move on from that. There's a lot involved there, a lot of emotions. So I would imagine there's a lot of just sort of pausing and reflecting and just kind of checking in with yourself as you make those tiny decisions without or throughout that process. I'm curious, though, when you started the nutritional Coaching institute, did you have the idea that you would sell it in the future at some point?

So, yes, I. July 17, 2017, is when I delivered my first ever in person certification. And I actually said that day to that class of 40 people. I said, I will exit this business in five years, and it took me four years to get my first exit offer.

That's incredible. Kudos to you. And also, I think, what are the advantages? I think whether people, you know, we have a lot of personal brands and also a blend of companies. But I think that it's just smart. Whether you plan on selling or not or plan on exiting, it's smart to think about your business in that way because it separates you from, you know, you have to ensure that the business can run without you, because you still want to have a life outside of your business, whether you're the founder, CEO or nothing. What are some like, how did you think about your business differently with the intention to sell it in the future or excel?

Yeah, so I look at businesses first as really, there's only two different types, right? There's. There's ones that have enterprise value, and then there's ones that are just cash flow entities. And so a lot of the clientele I work with isn't like the B two C service space. And so those are usually going to be just cash flow entities. There's no enterprise value. And so I knew that NCI had real enterprise value from day one, just because it is IP, it's knowledge that's in a course. But I also knew that the first $1.2 million we made that first fiscal year, it was all done on my likeness. I didn't run it, I didn't have to promote. It was all done on my likeness.

And ironically, the first time went through diligence, after four years, 90% of sales were attributed to mylikeness, which was not good. Right? So we call that a Keyman problem. Not good. Since then, we've now got it down to less than 60, which is great. And we're trending even lower. So now we're even more valuable. But I think that's the first thing, is you have to have really strong ip, you have to have very strong intellectual property that, whether you get hit by a bus tomorrow or whether you live to be 110 years old, that knowledge will change someone's life, no matter who implements it.

I think that's actually a missing link in a lot of B two C service businesses, too, which is when we see coaches and consultants step into the space and they're like, well, I'm better because I'm cheaper, or I care more about you, or I'll hold your hand more. It's like, that's not really feasible, and that's certainly not scalable. And so I think that most B, two C businesses should also be looking to instill IP into how they operate, because then it doesn't matter who's doing the delivery. Obviously, you want an attractive character. You want a charismatic person. You want somebody that cares about people. But at the end of the day, if a robot gave you that IP, it should still, in theory, produce results. But when you're building, I really think you should have it from the onset. Why am I doing this?

And I encourage my clients to do financial planning from day one, which is, you know, what is, like, I've heard it referenced as a fuck you number, but, like, what's, like, what's your. What's your fucking number?

Yeah, right.

What's the number where you're like, if I had this amount of money in the bank, I would quit and. And I. And I could live comfortably forever, right? And I had a massive awakening because for a long time, I was chasing 100 million because, you know, there's a famous name in our industry that's 100 million everything.

Yeah.

And. And I was like, I have to make $100 million. And then I, like, woke up one day and I'm like, I don't want $100 million. Like, I don't. I don't want the life that gets me into a hundred million dollars. And I was like, man, if I had 10 million liquid in the bank and 10 million invested at just 10% return, I could live on nearly a million dollars a year and never run out of money. I was like, that's pretty cool. And I was like, I think I just want 10 million. And I remember I actually called, you know, our mutual mentor, and I was like, hey, I just want to do this. He's like, you're smart. And there's like, he was like, dude, like, it's like, welcome to actually thinking. And it just, like, it changed my life, and I.

And it honestly changed my pursuits of things. It changed how, you know, like, right now, my consulting business, my aim is to only cash, and I say only, but it's to only cash flow. Like 2 million a year. You know, the NCI side of things. I'm only trying to cash flow 2 million a year, you know, so about $4 million a year is all I want to cash flow. And, you know, if I. If I only work another five years, I'm okay with that. Like, and if I don't get a monster exit, I'm okay with that, because 20 million in the bank, liquid like, I'm. My daughter's going to be fine. Like, it changes generational wealth for us. My daughter will be set.

And, you know, that's at the end of the day, as a father and as a parent, you know, I think it's. It's important. I mean, obviously, I want my family to enjoy every single day, and I'm not trying to prioritize my daughter over anything, but, you know, if I died tomorrow, I would know she's okay.

Yeah.

That's so good. Thank you for saying that, Jason and I think that it is. We get caught up in just the chase of the big things, and we forget again. It goes back to our original, just the original point earlier, just, like, does. Like, what do you actually want to feel at the end of the day? How do you want to feel? Because that's what matters the most. And then, of course, we can build in. What's what. What do you actually need? Like, what. What's that fuck you number? I love that. So, then that leads me to then where you're at now. So, there was a decision you made to also, again, start to separate, like, start to exit the business and start your own, like, a new, another endeavor. But I think that there's a lot of people that go through this.

Similar, even for me. There became a point where I had to make the decision, but it was a really hard decision. Can you share sort of, like, what the rest of that journey looks like or looked like for you, of, like, making the decision to at least, like, start exiting the business and also start that next chapter of this new endeavor? Like, what did that look and feel like for you and give me also sort of the raw, hard moments within that.

Yeah, I'll start you in, like, the darkest one, which was October of last year. I woke up one day. One of my coaches had quit, and another one of my coaches had just quit that day. So one of my coach had quit, like, a week prior, and then another coach quit that day, and, like, I could read between the lines. They were going and doing their own things, and they were going to compete with us. And I just was so tired of the bullshit that I was like, I'm done. Like, I was like, I'm out. I hate the space. I hate the people. Like, I was in such a dark spot. I was still, like, on the. I was still on the tail end of all the overwhelming burnout that I've been through two years ago.

And that just kind of sent me over a temporary edge, and I was like, fuck it. I'm done. And I wrote it online. Like I put it, I was like, I'm out. And like, I had a lot of big name marketers reach out to me and they're like, and it was wild because some of them were like, man, I wish I could do what you're doing. I'm in the same spot. And then some are like, I know this is a genius marketing ploy. What are you doing? And I was like, no, it's not a marketplace. I was like, I promise you this is as serious as it gets. I hate this shit. I'm done.

And I was for six weeks or so, and then I just sat back and I kept watching people get bad advice and I was like, I can't sit on the sidelines and be a part of that. And so I looked at the industry as a whole and I had time and nobody was expecting me to sell or marketed. And so I had time to really think about what makes me happy, what's best for the client. And I made myself a commitment that if I reenter the space, a couple things must be in play. One, I have to wake up never dreading what I'm doing. I genuinely have to enjoy it. If I wake up one day and I am not excited, I quit. I have to also provide a service that I am 100% confident will return any investment several times over.

I am not going to play in the current industry trend of charge more, give less, and thats why industry was going.

Amen.

And I said, im not going to do that. Then I said at the end of this day and ultimately I was like, im going to be happy and I'm going to be profitable. And if I can't achieve that either, a, I'm just not good enough, which is okay, like I can accept my own limitations or b, this isn't what I should be doing. And so I said, okay, I'm launching in January and let's go. And 125 clients later and we're doing okay. And it's, you know, we're, I think right now, that side of the business, we just launched in January, so what, we're in July, that side of the business is doing just shy of 700k right now.

Yes.

We also have another contract that'll likely produce about a half a million. So yeah, probably a little over a million dollars this year, so.

And on average, how many hours a week do you think you're working, if you would even consider it work?

Yeah, as many as I want. As I want. You know, I would say 20 if I had to put a number on it.

Yeah.

My marketing time takes me all of 2 hours a day. And my client interactions, I work three days a week, and I work maybe four to 5 hours a day on that, so maybe 20 total.

Okay.

And that's because I have a big team.

Yeah.

I have a team of one.

Yes.

They have one person that works for me.

Yeah.

So I just, it's just a good model. It's way better.

I also heard in that there's this sense of surrender, like, you had made the comment of like, I'm gonna try this thing. If it works great, it's what I'm meant to be doing. If it doesn't work great, it's not what I meant to be doing. And I would imagine that's really played into the rebuilding of this new endeavor. It's just kind of like what's meant to be is meant to be. There's this sort of we doubt approach. You're really detached from the outcome and just ensuring that each day really aligns with how you want to feel. Is that right?

Yeah. I would say that's a through line in everything I do, which is like, you know, I used to, and I talk about it openly. I used to have a big chip on my shoulder, and I said I need. I needed to be right. I needed to. I needed to be the best. I needed to be number one. Like, if you didn't agree with me, fuck you. And it was like, it was a very bad way to carry myself. But I also think, like, to some degree, early in business, I needed a little chip. Right? Like, I need a little edge.

Yeah.

But, you know, now it's very much like, listen, like, I'm, I turned 40 next month, and it's. I know that my way is not the only way. And if my way is not for you, that's okay. There's a lot of people that will teach you their way, and I genuinely just hope that you find a way that works. And because I want you to win in a sales conversation, I don't use any persuasion. I don't use any objection overcomes. It's if now is not the right time, fantastic. I wish you well, and I'll be here whenever you want. You know, if. If the model works, great because it makes me happy, if it doesn't work, that's okay. There's other things in life that will make me happy.

And, and so I think that it's just peace, and I think it's like, you know, I'll never forget during COVID Because it was, like, the first, like, real big, like, scary time in my business. I. I sat in my room at my parents house, and my mom had, like, this, like, green, like, rocking chair. And I would, like, sit there because it was, like, next to my bed. And I remember I was just, like, on edge, and I was, like, freaking out. And I was like, what the fuck are we gonna do? And I'm like, I had just gone live, and I said to my community, we're gonna get through this. And, like, I was, like, the face of, like, getting my community through this, and I didn't even know how I was gonna get through it, right. So many questions.

And then, like, I remember there was, like, a voice that came over me, and it was like, you know, everything's going to be okay. The plan is for you to win. And that's what I heard. And so every night before I went to bed, I would just repeat those words to myself. I said, everything's going to be okay. The plan is for you to win. And I've carried that with me now for four years. And every day, I repeat the same words right before I go to sleep. In good times, they're great. In bad times, they're calming. But I genuinely believe that as long as we are pursuing our passion, as long as we are. I think that's bad wording. So I wouldn't say pursuing.

As long as we are remaining in alignment with our desires, with what creates fulfillment, and we're choosing something that we know will yield happiness and can be profitable, I think everything will be okay. And I think that the plan is for everybody to win. And I know that my desire is for everybody to win. 9 billion people. I'd love nothing more than to see 9 billion successful people.

Yeah. That's incredible. Wow. I have goosebumps. So incredible. Jason. I have a lot here, even just for me personally. So thank you for that. As we wrap up, what I love to ask our guests, you know, the mission at the category queen is really helping women build the life and business they love around their unique brilliance and really using that as the force to create change, not just in other people's lives, but their own. And we think about women really, like, really leaning in to their uniqueness. That's where the magic happens. But sometimes there's friction.

Sometimes there's, like, there's all these competing priorities or what have you, but what parting words can you leave for women that really want to stand out and make a difference on their own terms and in their own way to live a life that does feel peaceful and easeful.

Yeah. You know, I think that it's almost a collection of so many things that I feel like I have said, right? Like, so first is like, naivete is not a bad thing. Be the one person that believes in you, because that's the only one that matters. It doesn't matter if anyone else believes in you,

so stop searching for the validation of someone else to believe in you, because honestly, the only one that it requires belief in you is yourself. Right? Like, that's success requires belief in yourself. And so I think that's one, you know, you look at somebody like a Jamie Kern Lima, and she was told by a very powerful person, you won't be successful. And she said, well, I'm going to show you. And she became very successful.

And so I think that's first is like, just have the naivete, live with the boldness, live with the, not even the belief, but live with the assumption and the knowledge that you will be successful. I think that's, I think that's number one. But then I think you need to dive into, if I'm going to be successful, what does that even mean? Because you need to be able to tell me when you arrive at success. And so I think the next thing is, just define that success. What does this look like? Why is that important to you? How will you know you've arrived at it? And how will life feel when you're living those moments? Because I promise you, they do exist. And then third is just understand. It's a journey. Like, success is a guarantee, right? Success is inevitability. It's not a possibility.

The only time it becomes a possibility is if you quit. And so it is an inevitability. But we don't know where that finish line is. I think that's the hardest part about life, is all things that we desire will come to fruition. We just don't know when. For some of us, they happen very quickly. For some of us, they happen very slowly. The ones that get there are the ones that persevere there. And so I think that when you're bold enough to believe, when you know what you're looking for and when you're willing to just persevere long enough, it's a beautiful route and you appreciate each and every step along the way.

Amazing. Thank you so much, Jason. Again, this was such a gift. And you are a true model for what's possible, especially for just, again, like you said, being bold, believing in what you can do and also giving yourself permission to switch gears, to pivot, to realign. Right. Which is really important. And I think people tend to forget those things. It's kind of like we are not quitters, right? We're overachievers. So we get these narrow lens on and it's kind of like, it's hard to pull ourselves out of that. And so I think this is also serving as a reminder for people to just, again, pause and check in with themselves and ensure that what they're building, what they're doing, is in true alignment with what they desire. So thank you so much, Jason. This was such a beautiful conversation.

Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on, and I hope everybody listening has got some sort of value out of this. And, you know, I hope it serves you. And best of luck. And I can't wait to see everybody win.

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