Leadership in Turmoil: Turning Workplace Dysfunction into Collaboration

Maartje van Krieken: Hey listener, thank you for tuning back in. You're very welcome in today's episode, which is special because it's one that we are recording live at pull the Palooza pulapaluza is an event that happens a couple times per year. It's everything for and by podcasters, podcast guests and those who maybe are thinking about starting a podcast, and it has a major element of some guests and podcast hosts speed dating, where we are matched with suitable guests and actually live record on the day. It's a lot of fun. So my guest today is somebody that I just got introduced to, Ken Williams, I'm very glad he's here, though, because he definitely has some interesting subject matter to discuss for for you here in the business emergency room. So welcome Ken. Ken is a life coach and a father of five, and he has written several books, including one that's called the stupid goals blueprint, the antidote to toxic SMART goals. So that definitely sounds intriguing. He's also the host of the bad boss podcast, so a fellow podcast host here as a guest. And yeah, we all we've talked about, uh, toxic work relationships, or toxic relationships in the workplace, plenty, as contributors to chaos. So yeah, looking forward to hearing more about that. Welcome Ken.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Maartje van Krieken: Thanks. Can we start with the podcast, bad bosses? What have you learned over the time doing that podcast, how bad bosses contribute to chaos and emergencies in the workplace?

Well, I used to think that whether a person was a good boss or a bad boss was kind of objective, and that there were only people would fall into one of the two categories. They'd be a good boss, or they'd be a bad boss. And then as a boss, I discovered I was the bad boss, and I thought I was a pretty good boss. And so we're always doing something that's going to either move us towards being a better boss or a more of a bad boss. And it's not because we want to be a bad boss, but we do things maybe without understanding the impact of what we're doing. And one example when I realized I was the bad boss. I'd been told by my boss how my team was going to operate on a specific assignment. I worked at FedEx. We offloaded and unloaded the planes, and this was a high visibility flight, my team was going to offload. And so I had people telling me, here's how they're going to do it, and in theory, it was going to simplify and streamline the offload process. So I went to my ramp agent, I said, here's how we're going to do this. And he looked at me and he said, that's going to ruin everything. And because I was the good boss doing what my boss said, I said, I don't care. We're going to do it my way. And it ruined everything. And looking back, I realized that what I should have done is I should have trusted his experience. I should have said, here's the ultimate objective. Here's the goal that we have. What do you need from me so we can hit that objective? And if I'd done that, I would have used his knowledge, his expertise, the planning he'd already done, instead of cutting him off at the knees and telling him that I which I've never, done his job, but I ended up telling him, I know better than you do how to do the job that I've never done. And so we all do that to some degree, at least occasionally. And so I realized that the bad boss is not a person, it's really a there's a way that we can work as employees. We can work with people to have a better experience, so that we're creating a better experiment. That's our experience. That's really what I do on my podcast, is I, I talk about, how do we, how do we have better relationships with each other?

Maartje van Krieken: Yeah, and I love that that analysis, because I also find that even in the the biggest emergencies and the messiest situations, there is very little bad intent, right, right? People have good intentions and sometimes have misguided enthusiasm and energy. If it's misguided enthusiasm, it's typically easier to deal with, right? So I don't know how old you were in the situation you were describing, but I've been in situations where I had younger staff enthusiastically driving something through and indeed, not tapping into the more senior experience, and kind of decided, well, it's my task. So this is. How I'll do it and I'll and advocate that in a manner that sounded like this is, you know, non negotiable, and that's very forgivable. You have to remember that when the pressure goes up and the emotions are running high, that you don't really see it as enthusiasm anymore, or misguided enthusiasm. You sometimes see it as a resident assault, or on my assault is a heavy word. That's, that's my ding wish speaking, but it's, and you feel it. It feels like an attacker or criticism or of your way, or a very rigid, pedantic kind of style somebody telling you. But of course, our mannerisms in communication go out the door when the pressure goes up and the emotions are running high, right? And we default to less effective communication. So, so in talking about that, where and how, if you, if you are working for a bad boss, and you see that build up, because I am assuming it's typically a build up, if it's an occasional bad behavior, you might call your boss a bad boss. Might be a good boss with some funky ticks, but if you if you see systemic behavior and it you know, keeps growing and escalating, how do you see the role of an employee in intervening and trying to address that situation before it spins out of control and it truly leads to a mess that disrupts the business.

Yeah, the the problem is we're not taught really well how to communicate, and we assume that people just understand what is going on in our heads. And I have had bosses, for example, where they would I'll use the word micromanage. And micromanaging is there's a communication that doesn't happen when there's micromanaging, because the employee just assumes that the boss doesn't trust the employee and the boss. It's usually that's not the case. The boss is really aware of what his or her image is with his or her boss, and so they're trying to protect that. And as a especially as a younger employee, I was really intimidated by my bosses. There was this idea that they were more important than I was, or that they were better at everything than I was, and so I just kind of, I saw him kind of like a parent, and as I as I grew older and realized that's not the case. And there's just, in a lot of cases, they're trying to do the best that they can. They're not trying to do a bad job, like you were saying. And so communication is where a lot of that gets resolved. And so it's okay to go to your boss and give feedback on their style. It's okay, for example, to go to your boss and say, when you watch over my shoulder how I'm putting together that Excel spreadsheet, it makes me nervous, and I'm not performing the way that I need to perform to get you the product that you want. Or when you check in with me as frequently as you do, I start to resent you and have those communication, those conversations, so that the boss knows what works or doesn't work for the employee and vice versa. As you get to know each other, this does not always work, but as you get to know each other, a lot of times, you can see that they're just doing the best that they can, and maybe their best is different than somebody else's best, but they're not trying to do a bad job. But opening the lines of communications is going to help with that a lot.

Maartje van Krieken: Yeah, yeah. And I statements, right? So how, how do you feel in it and talking about outcomes that makes it somehow less threatening, right? Say, right, hey, if you want the best out of me that then, or if, yeah, or trying to go back and say, okay, you know you're people looking over my shoulder. Are we not aligned on where we're trying to go? Because I think we're doing this, so I think I should be fine doing that for you, or is there something else I'm not aware of that I need to take into account to get where we need to go right? Which brings me to my next question. We talk a lot about empowerment too, because in getting out of chaos, the more people you can bring in to get you out, the quicker the better, right? Yeah, and so I talk a lot about as a as a leader, or anybody who finds themselves in a situation where at least they know that where they're at they don't want to be, if you declare intent of where you want to go, even if you don't know how to go there. But if you declare this is what I'm trying to achieve, you're inviting others in to tap into what they have and what they know, and people want to help. So they'll start looking at what they have in their tool suite or in their connections, or in their capacity to to help you out. So can we. Talk about declaring intent in relation to how you look at goal setting.

Yeah, declaring intent is is a powerful first step. And really when we need to be aware of what we want, we need to be self aware of what we want. And sometimes I found with my own goal setting, I was trying to impress my boss, or I was trying to impress my wife, or I was trying to set a goal that I thought my parents thought I should achieve and intent because it's so personal, it can be really terrifying to let other people know what you want, but it's through other people that we accomplish almost everything that we want to accomplish, and so declaring that intent is critical. And the thing that I discovered, I've discovered this over and over, every time I forget, there's a new opportunity for me to discover other people are not nearly as critical of my intent, my desire, my my wish or my want as I imagine they're going to be. Other people are incredibly supportive in general, and so if I tell them I want to accomplish this, I want to write a book, or I want to become a pilot, or whatever it is. Yeah, there will be people that say, why would you want to do that? But there are going to people be people that say, That's amazing, or that's cool, or that's incredible, and then you can start asking for resources. Do you know anybody who can help me with this? And it's not our network that gets us the results that we want. It's our networks. Network, it's the people that we know, who know people that can help draw us into what we want to accomplish.

Maartje van Krieken: And though you find that if you, if you actually put it out there, that you sometimes don't even have to ask for people to help you, because if, if it's understandable, right? Sometimes we work in very complex businesses, so people in our private space, yeah, more to understand what that really means, but in the right networks, even a relatively short description of where you're trying to go, like, I'd want to write a book, there's always somebody who immediately says, Oh, I know a good editor or a publisher, or I have a friend who is in a similar business, like you, and he just did a book, do you want me to connect you up? And yeah, people, people want to offer their tips and their connections, right,

Right? And sometimes there's people that are not quite as as close to you, as the more intimate connections, the the more intimate connections, who you would think would be more supportive. They know you so well, and I don't think they're trying to be discouraging, but they're the ones that they don't want to see you fail, and so in their effort to not see you fail, they're the ones that sound not supportive but, but it is beyond

Maartje van Krieken: Interesting observation. I think there's also potentially a little bit of a conflict of interest, not the most negative kind. But if I don't know you that well, and I run into you at a networking session, right? And it's clear we're both podcasts, so we have a few things to talk about, and then you're telling me, oh yeah, my next project, I actually really would like to write a book. Then I don't really know about your five kids and all the other things and part. So all I'm thinking is, oh book writing. So I have more tunnel vision thinking about oh book writing. Who do I know this book writing? And then I remember that I had a conversation with somebody yesterday or earlier at the networking thing, who just told me that they just finished a book, and they're really proud of it, right? Right? I will listen to your story with a much more singular focus, whilst people who are close to you are also thinking, Oh, he wants to write a book, but, uh, well, when is he going to find quiet time? Or they might translate to that, right? Because they might look at your life and go like, and go like, well, but the five kids, and he's, I see him there and here every weekend and that, or I know where he lives, and he doesn't even have quite place at home to write. So how will that work? And their brain might go there, rather than in the supportive and I think that happens in the workplace too, and we underestimate that, right? So I typically see when organizations are in chaos that that declaring intent is a really good step forward, right where do you want to go? But you need to recognize then the reaction that you get and what you see is that you typically have more junior staff or some that are a bit more further removed from you as a leader, they're the ones that are on that typically most responsive, because they're like, Okay, you're the boss. You know where you're going. What can I now do to now support that and filter more singular, whilst maybe your peer or your senior team lead, who's also in the room, who already is overwhelmed? Realm, because they have a big chunk of some critical projects. They also might have a own functional line. They have a right, and you might have a division of tasks between you and them. And so they will listen to your intent, kind of going like, oh, okay, hold on, if we're now going, does he then implicitly mean that we're not doing this, or we're not, you know, they immediately pull in all these other things, right? How is this going to impact me? Yeah, yeah. It's a different culture, because they have a plural interest with you and conflicting interest. Yeah. So how about goal setting? What is it the main lesson in the way you look at it, specifically that you think is really important in dysfunctional or disruptive or turmoil type situations, to look at goal setting differently.

So a lot of times we we look at goal setting, especially in an organization, goals are top down. You've got your C suite that says, These are our goals, and they go down to layer by layer and and so each person has their their part to play. And the problem with that is that it's not Michael, it's my boss's goal, or it's not my goal, it's the President's goal. And so with the way that I've approached goals, and really to achieve goals. Instead of SMART goals, I created stupid goals, and the I in stupid is inspiring. We've got to find a way that people can be inspired by the goals that they're going after. And if we're not inspired by our goals, and if you're top level, if you're the one who created the goals, of course you're inspired, you're excited, you see how this is the path forward. And so the the layers down, we need to find ways to help them have that same kind of of inspiration. And maybe it's how they how their behavior, their results, are tangibly affecting the goals. Maybe that's a way to do it. Maybe it's figuring out what their what drives them, and maybe they're driven by performance metrics, and so we can tie the goals into their specific performance metrics. But it's it's a more comprehensive way of looking at how we individually can get excited about the goals that we want to achieve and learn from the misses that we're not going to every single day. We're not going to we're not going to have only successes. So what do we how do we learn from those mistakes? How do we adjust? How do we refocus, and how do we move forward? And so really, that's what I offer with my stupid gold blueprint. Is we're just going to start from the ground up, rather than the top. Rather than the top down, and be inspired by him.

Maartje van Krieken: Well, I love, I love the connection of energy to me. Inspiration is about energy. Energy to goal setting, because lack of clarity on the goal or ambiguity around it, or your team, kind of feeling that it's unachievable or it doesn't make sense, which translates to being inspired, right? Means that it doesn't function as a filter. And when it doesn't function as a filter, you take on scope that maybe isn't relevant, or you run too many things in parallel, or you pull in too much data, because it might also matter, and that's how you end up in chaos, because you simply have too much on your plate in parallel, whilst, if you have clarity on where you're going, it functions like a knife, right? It cuts through the butter much sharper. And so, yeah, I think I love that, that connection. So in hearing you talk here, you talk about goal setting, talking about bad bosses in your podcast. If people want more, more of you. More of either of those. Where do they go? Where do they find you?

My website is probably the easiest way to find my find me. KenWilliamscoaching.com. Got a link there to my podcast. I've got a link there to my schedule. If you want to sit down and chat and talk about how goals can invigorate your business, or whatever else. I love to have a conversation but KenWilliamscoaching.com.

Maartje van Krieken: Alright, and it'sThe Bad Boss Podcast.

Bad Boss Podcast. And if you go to Ken Williams coaching.com/listen I've got links to Spotify Apple, etc, to make it easy for you to find.

Maartje van Krieken: Because we definitely have the listeners here who like podcasts, so it's Yes, bring that up, right? Well, Ken, I'm glad we got matched with Paula Palooza today. I'm glad I found out about what you do. I love to then meet somebody else's in a niche, right? I talk about that a lot, and yeah, there is somebody who caters to the challenge you have. And if you tap into people like Ken or to tap into people like myself, you tap into a wider network of our connections and our people, and we can help link you up with somebody who knows a lot about specific subjects that you need or want to learn more about. Right? So I. Love the niche that you address with your podcast, and I'm going to check out your two so before we sign off and let the listener go, I always ask my guest for a chaos theory, a piece of wisdom to deploying chaos that maybe you liked or worked for you. Do you have anything to leave us with?

I do. This is something that I'm reminded of frequently, but it's it's going to work out. Doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but it's going to work out. It always works out. And the fact that we're still here today is evidence that is, it's all worked out up until now. It's going to work out

Maartje van Krieken: Very good. Yes, this is not yet the end. If it's not yet, all right, it cannot be the end, right?

That's right.

Maartje van Krieken: Yes. So thank you very much for tuning in today. I hope to hear you and see you back here next week or on another episode, Ken, thanks again for being a fabulous guest and sharing your wisdom with us. And thank you so much. Thank you. Bye.