EP101: Strategies for Lawyer Rainmaking and Business Development with The Lawyer’s Coach, Phyllis Sisenwine

by free piece to the perfect week or productive days, practical days and play days, if you want to be efficient with your time you have your productive day you're in the office, you're not gonna have to work, you're not getting interrupted, you're not running out to lunch or to a networking event. The day you have your, your chamber or your business lunch or your rotary, that's when you're out. That's when you do your one on ones. And that's when you do your administrative or follow up. And then your third P is your play day. Take a break and just relax and enjoy. And don't think about work too much. Well,

good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, and welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. Got a great guest today, Phyllis system wine. And we're going to get right into it. And Phyllis has tremendous business development approach for attorneys. So Phyllis, welcome to the 10 golden rules, Internet Marketing for law firms podcast.

Thanks, Jay. Great to be here. Thank you.

So tell us a little bit about your journey. Like before you became the rock star coach to rock star attorneys.

Later to I sold office supplies, loved sales, successful, but then staples bought the company and it stopped being fun. I was on straight commission. I want all kinds of contests. And they wanted me to do call reports and just it was not what I really wanted to do. And whenever a salesman lost an account or had a bad day, they would say Phyllis, take me to lunch, I need motivation. So I didn't realize I was coaching the other salespeople. So when I decided to leave the office supply business, somebody said fellas, you've got to become a coach. 25 years ago, Jay, nobody knew what a coach was. So coaching, okay, I took 36 courses, I got certified. I have my master code certification. Today, there are 50,000 certified coaches out of the 100,000 50,000 are certified 2000 have their master code certification. So it's a big deal. I got it 25 years ago, and I still have it. I keep renewing it every several years. So I started coaching. I thought I would coach salespeople. That was my background sales. My third client was a lawyer. My fourth client was a lawyer. You know what lawyers need sales. So I became the lawyers coach started to speak at Bar Association's and my business just took off 25 years ago. First of all, people would say what sport do you coach you know, nobody knew what a business coach. But I spoke at Bar Association's and everybody was hungry for coaching. The lawyers in the firms don't have time to mentor. And coaching was new, and everybody hired me. I mean, it really took off so well. And that was 25 years ago. So I became the largest coach. And I've continued to do that for all these years. And I built my business networking and speaking, I started to speak, as I said, at the Bar Association, and then law firms, partners retreats, and then somebody said to me, Phyllis, what do you charge? Charge? You want to pay me for this? So of course, I said, what's your budget? And I got paid very nicely. And then I thought why don't I do this more often. So I joined the National Speakers Association, and I went professional. So I was a professional speaker, who still spoke at Bar Association's and conferences and continue that journey. It's still a wonderful marketing strategy. phenomenal way to get business. You're the expert. And now you speak Jay, it's a great way to get your name out there.

Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, people also say often asked me and I have an answer. I'll give it a second, why don't you give the answer first? How do you get more speaking opportunities?

Ask.

You ask, ask is a good one. And

then I was on a Zoom meeting today from this organization, I belong to pro visors. At the end, they have a need a wonder and ask. I would love some speaking engagements. If you know any organizations, or you're a member of a Bar Association, or your firm is looking for a speaker call me. So I would say ask and also I have a strategy. When you give a free speech which I help my clients with. Go early because people go to life coach lawyers, they want to speak I used to speak all over the country even before COVID They would fly all over the country give a speech leave and they never got business from it. You need a strategy. So my strategy is before you show up, you get a few people to speak to that are going to be in your audience. You get the list of attendees. So I would interview a few of them before I even showed up. When I walked into the room. Oh fellas, I'm the one you spoke to. And they gave me some feedback for the presentation. I knew what I was going to say. But if they had a great speaker or something they really wanted me to talk about I would customize it. So that's before you get the list of attendees if you can, and your network before you even show up during your speech. You weave in a success story. You want to weave in sick says stores. And at the end of the speech, I would say Does anybody here I'm going to give a door prize out, I have a book or a free month of coaching or whatever, I want to give us a door prize. Get out your business card, if you want a complimentary coaching session, put coaching on the back, if you want to sign up for my newsletter, put newsletter, and if you know of any other groups are looking for speakers put speech on the back. And they after every presentation, I would get other speaking engagements because I, I asked, and then at the end, of course, follow up, follow up follow up. And that's how I grew a business by speaking and getting some and,

you know, here's the advanced tip. I found that if you put up a QR code, and just, you know, hey, if you're looking, you know, if you want our my free notes from this presentation, exactly what slides if you want to, you know, we have an ebook on local service ads, how to get listed at the top to the local service ads, Google screen. And, you know, I put that up at National Trial Lawyers and Pillman got about 50 people to opt in. So,

four years ago, I didn't know what a QR code. And I have one How am I? Now I, I didn't know what a QR code was. And you know, I didn't do social media. I was in person coaching and speaking and then with COVID hit, you know, I went into withdrawal. What am I going to do now, and I didn't want to speak on Zoom, and I wasn't going to get involved. And now I'm the Zoom queen. I'm speaking on networking on Zoom, and I'm loving it.

I also I just wanted to, I don't want to forget, you know, you said how do you get speaking you ask? And that's a great one. And I do it too. At the end of my presentations, I have a slide that says q&a, you know, free free internet marketing audit, and, you know, speaking and I say if you know you're you think this presentation would go well at your local bar association or your Trial Lawyers Association. But one of the other things people asked me like, how do you get to speak? And I said, Well, the first thing is you speak and I have a great name for your talk. And I remember once I spoke, there were seven people showed up at the local Rotary Club. And the whole speech I was thinking, you know, what am I doing here? I have all this client work to do. And there's only seven people here and the guy came up at the end and similar to your story. So didn't know that was amazing. You know, could you come speak to my company, and I'd be happy to pay you because it's on a Saturday and I got this well paying professional gig and he was flying like two and a half the one guy out of the seven at the rotary was you know, was fantastic. You'll

never know you can ever move. 100 people aren't getting no business and seven people and you get business. You'll never start

out small like, you know, I spoke at the local women and communications. Absolutely. Then they're like, Oh, this is really good. Can you speak at the regional women in communications, and then they booked me for the national conference in Orlando. And that was a paying gig. So you know, just do a great job, do everything.

I always suggest to my clients

customize, absolutely great slides, and

started a rotary club. They always need speakers. They have 52 meetings a year. They need 52 speakers, and they're looking for good topics. So start there and then branch out to your ideal client being in the audience.

Easy way to get started. Absolutely. So what's your why? You know if you know the the famous TED talk about finding your why, you know what gets you up in the morning, what makes your heart beat faster. I

love love love coaching. I mean, I am passionate about it. I've been doing it for 25 years, my MCSE was up for renewal this past December. And I'm thinking the lawyers really care if I'm certified and should I do it? It's 52 hours of continuing education. And you know, how important is it and I said, You know what, I'm going for it. I 52 hours I did 310 hour days, I got all of my hours in I renewed MCC. And because I love what I do in January 1 When I decided I was going to renew it and not let it go. That's when I joined networking groups and I started to speak again. And I did some zoom presentations. I love coaching lawyers, I coach several today helping them supporting them for that advising. If

I'm looking for a coach, what's the difference between a coach a certified coach and a master certified coach? Well,

there's associate coach, professional coach and master coach. The master coach is just hours and many many more hours and mentoring and and a lot of organizations that you have to go to and it's just a big deal. It's just a really big deal. Not that there aren't great coaches who are associate you know, you know, professional certified coaches, but but the master coach which, as I said, 2000 out of 100,000 coaches, it's just, it's just hard to get. And I That's why I didn't want to give it up. And once I did retraining, more expertise, absolutely, and I mentor, and if you want to become certified, you need an MCC to certify to help you. So I also am a mentor coach for years, I've helped other people, Coach lawyers, I started, I was a facilitator for a group and it's still in existence. It's for people who coach lawyers around the country, once a month, we have a meeting. And I share with them, you know, my my experience and my wisdom, and I mentor them when needed, if they want to get certified, you don't have to be certified to be a coach. But it definitely is a wonderful credential to have, it does set you apart. So

speaking has been a great business development strategy for you and as part of your coaching to attorneys as well, right? Absolutely.

If they're comfortable, you know, it's a very one on one personal coach, I don't have a program, I don't do training, not that I haven't gone in and spoken for, to the partners in firms. And I've done a lot of that. But it's not really training. Because when I went to a law firm, and they have a partner's retreat, and they spend 1000s of dollars, and they come back with a binder, and the binder sits on their bookshelf, and I walk into an office that what's that binder, that's your marketing plan from your partner's retreat? They spent two or three days in an offsite location 1000s and 1000s of dollars and they don't take action. So the coaching is one on one, where are you now where do you want to be next July 3, what's a goal that you want to accomplish? You know, maybe you're you need to delegate more, maybe you need to do some speaking and, and marketing. also writing a lot of people like to write, I'll tell you how I got into writing my story. When I started my business 25 years ago, and nobody knew what a coach was. I went to a Chamber of Commerce event. And I met a lot of nice people. And you know, it was great. A month later, I went back to that same event. And a man came up to me, said Phyllis, where's your red suit? red suit, I was wearing a blue suit. He's an IV member you had a red suit on? I said, Oh, okay. He said, I'm a publisher of a magazine. He said, Why don't you write an article for my magazine? I said, Well, I'm a speaker, not really a writer. He said, Take one of your speeches and turned it into an article. He published 36 articles for me for three years. Every month, he had an article because he remembered my red suit. So from that day forward, I always wear red. I've had two red convertibles, my logo was red, because that's my brand. He remembered me. And that made me a writer. So I wrote he published 36 articles, and I've had many more published as well. And it's fun to tell your story. Now, I'm using those articles on my LinkedIn posts every week and some videos every week. But I think that speaking and writing are great marketing strategies, because you're the expert, but you have to enjoy it. I don't want anybody to do anything they don't like to do. And that's where this coaching and the strategizing comes in. What are you comfortable with? What are you good at? And that's what we'll back to over one. I

love the single color wardrobe technique. Buddy, Matt Platt is, you know, he, he did a series of videos, and he tells us my story. And his business coach saw one of his videos, he said, what's wrong? Why are you wearing the orange? He said, What do you mean? He said, Oh, you're you're always crashing the orange. He said, Well, in any thought. And he says like, oh, like three consecutive Mondays, he filmed videos, and those, he just happened to wear the same orange golf shirt. So a series of videos came out in the orange. And then he just started always wearing the orange. And you know, you can search you can search Matt, clap, if you're on the PLA PP, but I'm going to share it here on the screen. And you see, like every picture of Matt clap. That's

great. Orange is his

brand. best restaurants. That's

great. That's great.

He was wearing a great shirt the other day, and I get one of those. And so he sent me one and that's

great. Now, you kind of seize the opportunity. I didn't plan to be read. But when somebody said I remember you because to read I didn't I didn't plan to be the lawyers coach, but when three, you know, my clients for lawyers, why not? You said when you see an opportunity, I think you just go for it.

Yeah. And, you know, that's kind of the next question I was gonna ask like. My question is What lessons life lessons do you have for young attorneys? And I guess that's kind of, you know, that would be the big one is like, Sure, life gives you lemons make lemonade when life gives you, you know, hey, you should be a coach. Maybe take it seriously.

What would I say to young lawyers? Yeah. Okay. Well, young lawyers. Okay. Well, the first thing is pick an area if you can, that you're interested in. You can't really fake it. You know, you want to enjoy To the area of your law, I met somebody recently on a meeting. And she said, I'm going to area of law that I don't like. And she told me what she likes. Like, If not now When. So get into a field that you enjoy. And then it won't be a challenge won't be as much a challenge. But when you're a young lawyer, build relationships, build relationships, it's all about people who know people. As a matter of fact, I wrote a book on marketing for lawyers, just the simple book market, you must. But the reason I got to write this book was when I speak, I would bring little signs to put around the room. Is this the best use of my time right now? Don't be a secret, and build relationships. So I put these signs around the room, and people would take them, and somebody sent me Phillips, I still had that sign on my computer 10 years later. So one of my clients said, why don't you write a book, take your signs and turn it into a book? And I did. So every tip is now a little sign? And that's, that's one of the signs and one of the tips, build relationships? Who do you know from law school? Who are your neighbors? And one of my signs says, Don't be a secret? Does everybody know what you do? And many people don't. They're lawyers, they go to sports events with their kids or at a soccer game. Do the people there know what kind of lawyer you're going to even though you're a lawyer, when you get your hair cut? When you get your job, your car off? Does everybody know what you do? So a young lawyer needs to be more out there and share how he can be helpful. Now, nobody likes sales. I don't have my clients do any sales, they run from that. But how can I be helpful is this is a sentence that I highly recommend when

you build relationships, like I want to be 100% 100%. So what did they do? Well, what do they actually do? We had Charlie man on here, and he shared his $500,000 referral playbook. So you can listen to Charlie's as well, but probably gonna give you some of the same tips. But he said, calendar as it like structurally meet with to potential referring attorneys chiropractors, if you're bi, you know, accountants, if you're in, you know, estate planning, structure, two meetings per week, how would you say you build relationships?

I think it's great to meet two people a week and to do breakfast, lunch and dinners and to reach the app there. The main thing is, yes, it's great to do lunches or breakfasts or to join a BNI or a chamber and build relationships. But it's always about, you know, no light trust. And that's really what it is getting to know each other. You're smart. You're a lawyer, you're smart guy, you're a nice person. People want to get to know you. I have a lawyer now who's just starting to network more and more. And he said, Phyllis, you're right. People want to go out to lunch with me. I said, yes, you're a lawyer, you're a professional, they're happy to go into the EU. He happens to be in Florida. And he just got into a new firm. And he's so excited. He just sent me a text. He got a he got a retainer from a big client. He was so excited, or from networking, and from building relationships and just being a nice

group like a BNI. Your Chamber of Commerce leads group.

Yes, there's a lot of work

done here. Advisors is a national Yes, exactly. And then really put the time in the first step like all these groups encourage you to do one on ones. Absolutely.

100%. So right, right, exactly. This is not good for the new young attorney, you have to be in business. 10 years, right. So we're experienced group by BNI, or a chamber of commerce, absolutely. Do a one on one and get to know each other. If they do one a week, a year from today. 50 More people will know who they are. There's nothing like a one on one breakfast or lunch. But I do have a system for having a really productive week. And it's funny I have, you know, first you have a plan. What do you want to accomplish this year, create space, if you have a lot of clutter, let's clear the clutter. But I saw it in your golden rules. Rule number six, remember the four P's and I have three P's to the perfect week. So you have your four P's which are great. The four P's of marketing, product, place price and promotion. My three P's to the perfect week are productive days, practical days and play days. If you want to be efficient with your time you have your productive day you're in the office, you're not gonna have to work you're not getting interrupted, you're not running out to lunch or to a networking event. That day you have your your chamber or your business lunch or your rotary, that's when you're out that's when you do your one on ones and that's when you do your administrative or follow up and then your third P is your play day. Take a break and just relax and enjoy and don't think about work too much. So your productive days because all we have is time especially lawyers. They're done. billable hour. If you have an interruption, it takes 18 to 20 minutes to get back on track. It's been proven by time management experts. I'll check my emails, I think I've got a cup of coffee 18 to 20 minutes from that one interruption, which we often interrupt ourselves, three interruptions that day you lose an hour, that's a lot of time for lawyers, billable hour, or even if they're not on a billable time. Anybody, you don't want to lose an hour a day, minimize interruptions. So that's really important. When I work with my clients to look at how you're spending your day. That's why your productive day. I spoke to somebody today. She's a Florida lawyer, and she's looking to get more time in her day. And she said, my phone, I keep getting phone calls. I said if you blocked out from nine to 11 Every morning, what do you think it's up to her? I'm not telling her what to do. We're just brainstorming two hours, uninterrupted time and return all calls in the afternoon that would make you more efficient. And then another thing I said, I'm one of my favorite books. We might discuss my favorite books later on how to become a rainmaker. It's around a long time, but one of the tips is you're never at a meeting, you're never on vacation, you're never out to lunch, you're always with a client. So I told her when the phone rings and she's not available, she's with a client. And she can return all the calls because she really is with a client. She's doing their their work, but she's not taking calls and interrupting her day. So really important time blocking two hours, whatever, you can spare an hour, two hours, and then you're so much more productive. I mean, we interrupt ourselves. And then it takes about 20 minutes to get back on track. To become a rainmaker. It's Yes, it's an amazing old book. It's a classic book, but it's so interesting. It says never eat lunch alone.

Always Parker has another great book madly Yes, exactly. That's where he got the line, right?

Maybe you're not at lunch to eat lunch course we're at lunch to meet people. And one is interesting. Never always park in the back. Because you don't want somebody to see you getting out of the car fixing your jacket or know if it's your, your your bait who you're meeting person, so many tips. But the main thing I said to her today, and I might send you this book is you're in a meeting, you're always with a client. I mean, you're always with a client. She said, My my, my receptionist says I'm at the doctor's when I'm at the doctor's or she says I'm out to lunch when I'm out to lunch. I said well think about having her say I'm with a client. So just little tips from this book.

I want to put it in the meeting notes as well. How to

Become a rainmaker, Jeffrey Fox, it's a simple basic book, but I love the tips that it has here. It's, it's a great book.

You stuck your head on me because we're going to do the quick one liners.

I know I have others. I have one more question. First.

Things that you coach your attorneys on as accountability. You want to talk about how you make how often we come to them, which is more important than being their coach.

My lawyers are really smart. Most people they know what they want to do. But they need the accountability to do it. I have clients who say I'm going to call to old inactive clients to reach out to them, you know, when they call them the morning of our coaching session? Because they know I'm going to say to them, how did you make out this week? No, look, if they don't do their homework or whatever they committed to what's their agenda, but they do it because they committed to it and they're paying for coaching, they want to get value. So I think the accountability is really a big piece of it. Every time we have a coaching session, what are you going to do before we speak again, and they say to me, I'm going to reach out to a few private, I'm going to get a speaking engagement, I'm going to start to delegate more, whatever it is that they are going to do they commit to me, and most likely do it before our next session.

How do you like to track it? Now,

it's their responsibility. But they will they can email me in between sessions or call me anytime it's a monthly retainer. I'm completely available for them. But they are responsible for their own agenda and their own homework. I say to them, what do you want to accomplish? What do you want to do before you call me and two weeks? It's every two weeks, usually twice a month? What do you want to do? Right? This morning, I have people and I did take some notes of what they committed to and they 99% do it because they want to they want to grow their businesses and they want to be more efficient. And following up is so important and you know, have the accountability to me. I'm their strategy partner.

Great. Well, you snuck ahead and you answered a couple of the one liner questions. But let's add to you know, you shared a couple of great business books your book and The networking book, what are some is there others are there a couple of years

and they're all They're all classics? I know there's a lot of great books and I read a lot I'm, I'm a lifelong learner. The power of focus. The power of focus, Jack Canfield Mark Victor Hansen, unless you it's an old book, it's a classic, because why do I coach, so many lawyers because they lose focus, we all have the best intentions, he gets distracted. Life gets in the way. You might say, Yeah, somebody, oh, by tomorrow, I'm gonna call so and so tomorrow. And what happens that five o'clock and I never made that phone call. And then it's the next thing, the next thing, power of focus?

What's the answer there? Because like you before, you were saying, block two hours in the morning. Well, I blocked two hours in the morning and like 14 different things, even if even if I turn the things off, like my phone and my slack, 14 different things pop in my head, Oh, I gotta do that got to do that kind of in your head.

You have to talk to your head and say, I am focusing on this. I am not gonna get distracted. I am coming. He can't do it. Two hours, do a half an hour, do 45 minutes without your brain getting distracted. Because that's, that's mental clutter. J we all have if there's any physical clutter, the first thing I ask my clients, what is your office look like? And if it's a mess, they go in on a Sunday if they choose to, and they clean their office, they tell me they come in on Monday, and they feel empowered, when you're looking at a lot of clutter. It really is an energy game. And what you're talking about is mental clutter. All the things you're thinking about that effect right now, you might not even be paying attention to me, you're thinking about all the things you have to do later today. Now I'm kidding. But we all have. We all have things in our head that we're thinking we have to do later, we have to do tomorrow, try to just get rid of that mental clutter. One thing you can do as a brain dump, physically have a paper and pencil on your night table or on your desk and all the things in your head, write them down, get them out of your head and do a brain dump. And then try to keep focused on your task. If you can't do two hours, do one hour, do a half hour, whatever you can do without being interrupted is going to maximize your day dramatically. I'm telling you every time you're interrupted by yourself by your thoughts, 18 to 20 minutes. It's a lot of time in a day. So do a brain dump. mental clutter, physical clutter drains us of energy, that's the that's the coaching piece. It's really about keeping yourself with a clear head. And and also learning to listen, listening is so key to coaching. I took 36 courses. They were all four week courses except for listening, which was an eight week course. We listened my one hour session 45 to 50 minutes, I'm listening. Tell me about your week, tell me what you want to accomplish. What are some of your challenges and at the end, we strategize with what do you want to accomplish? But listening and not that many people have someone who can listen to them without opinions without judgment without replying. So coaching is getting someone to 100% listen to you and only be there for you. As a matter of fact, when I mentor new coaches, I tell them put a little post it note on your computer. W A it why am I talking? w ay ay t, because lawyers especially they're paid to talk and they're great at it and you're in court or you're with a client, but they have to learn to listen as well. Listen to what you're when I was in sales, the salespeople that I tried to help, they would go in and make a presentation for a half an hour how great they are and they're the best buy blah, blah, blah. That's not how you sell you now you sell by listening. And lawyers as well go to a prospect or go to a client. How can I be helpful? Tell me what's going on? I'd love to be helpful. And wa it I love that one. I am I talking to

me about any blogs or podcasts or YouTubes that you subscribe.

I like how I built this. That's a podcast because I love business. And the founders of the biggest businesses, some that worked and some that didn't work. Any big successful business. They interview the founder how I built this and it's fascinating how they started with an idea in their kitchen and how they got it to grow. That's why Shark Tank is kind of fun to how I built this is my favorite podcast. Check

that one out. Who's your NFL or sports team?

The Eagles the Phillies. I'm Phyllis from Philly.

That's a good one. And you know The most important question, Where can people get in touch with you?

I'm on LinkedIn. Now that I became such a social media person. I'm on LinkedIn. Phil assists in line ph YLIS. Si es ENWINE. And my email is Phyllis at the lawyers coach.com Fill us at the lawyers coach.com domain chat. Yes, the lawyers coach. I'm happy that I my I was coaching lawyers. Why not be the lawyers coach?

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, congratulations, Phyllis. Great tips. I took a bunch of notes. A bunch of things I'm going to do. So thank you so much for your time today. I'm

sure. It's great. Great chatting. We'll be in touch. Okay, super. Thanks so much for having me. Have a great day. Thanks, you too. Bye. Bye.