EP055: Rainmakers’ Blueprint: Master Strategies from an Elite Legal Networker

Well, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time this podcast finds you, this is Jay Berkowitz. With the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms Podcast. I'm joined by a great marketer and networker, Howard Rubin, an attorney. I'll let you tell. I'll let him tell us a little bit more about himself. But the reason why I wanted to do a podcast is Howard and myself and Greg Schultz did a webinar that's been viewed over 15,000 times. And the topic was rainmaking and rainmaking we defined as how to build your business how to make it rain. It's a little bit like the movie The Rainmaker, where a young attorney landed a bunch of cases and built his own law firm. So this is a little bit about rainmaking, a little bit about networking. A little bit about Howard Rubin, Howard that go ahead and tell us a little bit about your firm and your background.

i j, I'm good to sit. You didn't say read man, sometimes how I feel. But my firm is a firm that goes mostly construction and real estate. My practice has kind of taken a lot of different terms, twists and turns. I've had to reinvent myself a few times. Because the industries that I were in kind of became obsolete for various reasons. And I had to figure out a way to reinvent myself and networking. I think I'm pretty successful with it. I'm now I think one of the largest rainmakers, certainly in my firm. And so due to networking, that's how I built my business.

That's awesome. And I guess we could start with some basic stuff, you know, maybe go through a couple of examples of rainmaking, you know, things you did earlier in your career that helped build the firm. And I really loved your advice on our webinar, to young lawyers, you know, how do young lawyers really build their own business because you really don't become a partner, you're, you know, you're not going to have your own firm, if you can't bring in business, right?

That's right. I think that the first rule that people have to understand a lot young lawyers have to understand is, people like to do business with people who are likable. And you should go out of your way to be nice to people, even if you don't think that that's the person who may be a source of business. So you're gonna have a long term relationship, because there's been numerous instances in my career, where people I bought couldn't help me at all, but I just was nice to them. And it ended up being a tremendous boost to me and my professional practice doesn't always happen. But it doesn't cost a lot to be nice. And it really makes you much more marketable to more and more people. So I think the first rule is you've got to be nice, you can't be obnoxious, you can't be aggressive, unless you have to be, I find sometimes litigators want to show up at the top. But being tough is not going to help you in in marketing that's gonna help you in marketing is being fair. And being open to other people's ideas. So those are the people that are going to send your business a lot of times adversaries send me business, just because I treated them fairly. And that's what people have to keep in mind. Every person that you meet in your legal professional is a potential source of business, and you should treat them that way. So nice. Is it a general term?

No. How would you define it in in a networking sense?

Well, let me give you an example. Early in my career, early in my career, I was doing collection work with pharmaceutical wholesalers, there was maybe in the country 30 pharmaceutical wholesalers and Sue hospitals and pharmacies for money. Eventually, that was consolidated another 24. I had to find a new industry. But there was a young Korean lawyer who hardly spoke English, and he was representing this Korean pharmacy. And I could have crushed him in court, I could have just gotten the judgment against them. And but I treated him fairly, I gave him a payment plan. And I told him that if he ever had an issue, because I could see he really didn't, frankly, understand grasp of litigation, you should give me a call. And I would, you know, help him if he needs forms. If you need something. That would be nice. And not because I knew him not because I thought he was gonna give me anything back. Well, it turns out that this lawyer, went to the hobbit of Korea. And at that point, the major Korean conglomerates used him to give all the work to all the law firms within the city. And all of a sudden, I was representing Hyundai shipbuilding division, because he said to me, not because I did anything special. But because I was nice to him. And it worked out and over the years. He sent me other business, but it's just an example of how when you least expect it, just being nice to someone helpful to someone. It can work out and it certainly doesn't cost you.

That's fantastic. So maybe a couple examples. For the younger lawyers or for, frankly, for attorneys who haven't built their book of business and want to build up their book of business, you know, what are some of the basic networking, and business building tips you'd like to share?

One thing that I like to do whenever I get a new client, or a new person that I'm introduced to, and even in a social setting, I try to learn as much as I can about them, I try to learn where they bank because I have a financial advisor, they like, do they have real estate brokers, they lie. And the reason I ask these questions always in the compensation was they saved in a way that was the conversation is that I have other people that I know. And if they say that they're not so happy, or they really don't have someone that's stronger than that, I can then use that and recommend someone who I do business with, that's called building your network. Because if I'm sending these other people business, and that's how I get business to send people, then they're gonna have me on top of their list, send business to me, because virtually, people are looking to do business with other people. But you can't have a situation where you expect it's going to be one on one. But you have to have something to barter something to offer, the people who can't just be take take take, you have to look to give. And that's how you build a bank of goodwill. And that's how you learn, you also offer when you're speaking to lawyers I used to, very often I saw a lawyer, it's something I was doing, you really didn't know that area of the law, he also went off to him, I will try to get very friendly with that person, because that person is going to next time he has that type of case, I want him to think of me rather than do it himself. And I want to look at what he's doing. And maybe I can send him some type of have to remember what the legal profession is one profession. It's so it's so diverse. There's so many different types of practice areas. And not everyone does every practice areas, big firms, small firms, PII, we're criminal, we're patrimonio we're corporate real estate work. And you want to develop relationships with lawyers and all of these other specialties, because that should also be part of not just other professions, but other specialties within the legal profession.

Now, we did some basic tips, you know, let's just jump right into the advanced tips like what's one of your secret sauce, or, or two of your secret sauce, if somebody's already got a nice business, but they want to know, you know, how do they become as successful as Howard Rubin

I think that one thing you have to do to get out there in today's world, it makes it a lot easier, is social media, podcasting, you want to get out there and get as many people to hear you and to interact with you on a wide enough basis that you become the person who becomes the expert. If you give a few lectures of speeches, it used to be writing articles, write articles, as much as you write some articles on particular area of the law, all of a sudden, people are going to be looking at you as an expert. An example of that I can give you is when I also fails with being nice. I met the editor of the real estate weekly. And I really didn't do a lot in the real estate world. But she wanted an endo person and I happened to you couldn't get it at that time. Was it Christmas. So I happen to know as a representative electronic retailers. I had it on a desk the next day. And she sent the reporter down to interview me. And next day, the next week, there was an article by picture on the front page of the real estate replete as the go to guy and commercial real estate, even though it was ridiculous, but being nice, that made me an expert. And from that, I developed major clients in the real estate brokerage industry. Because all of a sudden, I became an expert not because of any great knowledge that I had more so than a lot of other lawyers. But because I got that kind of publicity. And you can't buy that kind of publicity, just because it just goes back to being nice and being looking to help people.

Now we're recording this in 2023. It's actually my first time in New York. So excited. This is our first live podcast interview, not zoom in some time. And my first time back here since COVID. I know you were wavering a little bit when we when we did the interview about it a year or a year and a half ago, and you were leaning towards LinkedIn as much as live events. Are you still as bullish on LinkedIn for building your network and staying in touch with folks are are you doing more live events these days?

Well, you know what you have to try to do stay one step ahead. LinkedIn is a business and essential tool. But it's not the only tool. You can't rely on one tool because frankly, a lot of people are using. You have to be able to distinguish yourself and make yourself stand out. And the way that you stand out is you can send that with podcasts. You can send that with social media, you can send that with some events. I personally am A relatively shy person, I can't go into a room of 100 people, I won't stop talking to someone, I'll sit in the corner with a drink. I won't talk to anybody, as someone who's close to me. So that doesn't work for me. If someone's not like that, maybe that works for them. So it's part of it's your personality. But I think you have to find what works for you. And you have to find what makes you unique. What you can offer people that they would say, Gee, that's an interesting perspective, or that's an interesting idea. I want to learn more about that, or I want to learn more about that person. That's what you got to find. That's how you make your secret sauce. There's not one secret sauce, everyone has their own secret sauce, just gotta find the recipe.

By the way, let's stay in live events for a minute. Because a lot of people are like you, Howard, I am too. Even though some people would perceive that I'm a very active and an outgoing networker. I've had to learn these skills. You know, one of the things, this is an easy tip, if you are the young attorney who we're talking to today, and your boss makes you go to the Chamber of Commerce or the Bar Association. You know, one of the tips is look for Howard, or someone like Howard, he's in the corner with their drink. And they look a little shy. Because if you go up and talk to that person, they will love you. Because now they're not embarrassed. They're not alone. And everybody wants to talk to people, obviously, but you know, they're a little shy to get the conversation started. So they'll actually be very thankful that you came to talk to them. Another thing we talked about on our last call is how many networking events you have to go to, to really build your business. And one of the things I shared was, you know, you really don't have to try and go to every event, do everything, you know, just pick two organizations, one professional organization, one personal organization, and if you participate in those, and it's good to get involved, you know, volunteer, to help the board or whatever. But all you really need to do is like those two events a month. And I said two plus two, like, go to two events, meet two people at each event that you're gonna have a follow up meeting with, because you all might be able to share some business or trade some introductions. And that's enough to build a really solid network. So you know, for a young attorney, you might join the Bar Association and get involved on one of the committees. And if you're a runner, you know, help organize the 5k. Or if you're involved in your synagogue or your church, no, get involved in one of the groups, our men's club desperately needed help, and I got involved. So you know it, you really don't have to be networking every more every breakfast, and every after work. Would you agree? And what are some of your other tips for live events aren't? Well,

I certainly agree as to the personal network, you should find your interests and find organizations that dovetail with your interests. So that's your local church or synagogue, whether that's some type of charitable work that you like to do, you should do that, because you'll be good at it, you'll enjoy it, and people will see that you're making a positive contribution. And that's perfectly in terms of professional network. I probably disagree with a and one aspect. We have my firm does a lot of as a big construction department, that's something we do a lot. And one of my partners say, Well, we're gonna make the young lawyers go to events, because we want to plant the flag. That's the term he uses. A young boy who goes to a an event, which is all construction lawyers, establish construction lawyers and their clients. It's not going to be effective for that person, maybe the nifty, Chrome's name will be out there. But that's not something that that's going to help that person they want to be networking. With people closer to their age, they're not going to be as likely get work with developing a long term networking relationship with someone who's 30 or 40 years older than they want to be. They want to get that young CPA that's around their age that they can develop and grow together, or another lawyer who's in another area of law. I personally, a lot of people would disagree with this. I try to stay away from events where the people who are going to be there are the exact same do the exact same thing that I Oh, that's just like a convention. And we want to trade ideas of what's happening in an industry. That's, that's a different thing. I don't consider that networking. I consider that more educational learning.

Excellent. You touched on podcasts. And there was one thing that sparked in my mind that you had mentioned previously, people look at podcasts as maybe something they listened to. But you and I both learned there's a tremendous benefit to producing a podcast in addition to the marketing aspects you talked about earlier. And that is when you invite someone to be on your podcast. You build a relationship with that person. And if you listen to the earlier episodes of this podcast many years ago I interviewed Craig Newmark, the founder of Craigslist. Tim Westergren, the founder of Pandora and Gary Vee when he worked at his dad's wine store, before he was one of the biggest podcasters in the world. And it's amazing because when you book these people on your podcast, sure enough, you trade emails and you become friends, and you talk about what you're going to talk about before you talk about it. And then you do the recording. And then, you know, guess what, now

I can email Gary Vee. And and Tim Westergren. So what are some of the other benefits, you talked about? The folks that you've had on your podcast, I think the biggest benefit is every lawyer, every professional needs content, content for their website, content to send out to people, it's a reason to communicate with your clients. I like when I do a podcast, whether I'm doing the podcast or on the guest on a podcast, I like to send out to all of my clients, hey, here's a podcast, I think you might find it interesting, just by me sending that I have a call on top of their mind, they may have had something that they wanted to contact me about, but they put it behind them, or they didn't, they didn't actually do it. But by getting that email, and I had a reason now to email them. So I wouldn't have a reason email unless it has some content. And podcasting is a great source of content. Also, you put it on your website, so lawyers have websites, there's different ways that you can market it, you can find people in that industry that you're talking about the podcasting without, and you can send it, send it to them and say, hey, you know, we really haven't met but I thought you might find this interesting, and that you meeting new people. So podcasting is terrific for a lot of things. But the content and the use of that content, if you use it correctly, can be a tremendous boost to any business.

And a lot of people are intimidated by podcasts. We're sitting in a pub, we're going to meet a bunch of folks in about half an hour for a beer, I just plugged a mic into my Mac. And we're just two guys having a conversation. So a lot of people are intimidated by the technology. But trust me, you just need to record a conversation with someone smart. That thankfully, Howard's here. So,

you know, I think Jay is being a little modest. When I do a podcast, I have to be in a studio with an engineer. And I have no technical skills, Jay could do a podcast in the bathroom. Jay has that capacity. And he has the experience. And he can do it. And he makes it interesting. But not everyone can do that. That's that's probably a J secret sauce is that he's one of the best podcasters.

Well, and the audio is pretty crappy. If people are hearing the greatest hits of the 80s in the background, we did try and get the music turned off. You talked about technology. And you hinted there's other technology other than LinkedIn. were you referring to podcasters? Is there some other secret sauce?

Well, I think that what's becoming the most dominant technological trend? I think everyone would agree with this is AI. And what AI is doing, as AI will allow you to differentiate yourself will be able to locate things that you couldn't locate before, at least not easily. I'm looking at ways I haven't figured it out yet. How to take these new AI trends and incorporate it into the network. I'm sure that's going to have a tremendous impact. I haven't figured it out yet. Jay probably has because he thinks about this 24/7. But I think that's the biggest trend. And we have to figure out how to use that. Yeah, that's a great question. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna draw from all the technology and AI on you right now, you probably knew that was coming even if you didn't know what's coming. So this is one of my favorite new tools. And it's an AI and artificial intelligence tool, that you just basically plug into LinkedIn. And it's a Chrome plugin if you use Google Chrome. And what it does is it does a DISC profile, you know, the personality profiling di sc, and it does a DISC profile off of your LinkedIn. And the product is called Crystal nose. C ry s t a l k n o w s, there'll be a link to Crystal nose and you can get a discount if you buy the product. But you can get 10 Free profiles. The link will be down below in the podcast notes. So what this is telling me Howard, is it it did your DISC profile. So it says you're a D or a captain. And in the DI SC the Ds are dominant, direct, decisive, competitive, daring, innovative, persistent, adventurous problem solvers. Sounds a little bit sounds like a horoscope but that's, that's all very flattering. I I just knew that you were getting into this AI. I knew that technology, not escape. Sounds like a great product.

Here's how I use it. So it says if I'm meeting with Howard, it's telling me you know he's a D. As a matter of fact, we're identical. So we're both here be dominant. And so it says when I'm communicating without I should focus on fast results, high standards, and clear, even blunt communication. Got that I got that. Highlight competitive advantages of your product. This podcast is going to outrank your podcast, just watch, and place a high value on being time efficient, rather than filling it up with small talk. Don't sugarcoat or use vague, overly optimistic language. Don't take their schedule lightly. And does that sound a little bit like you?

Yeah, that sounds like the people say that I'm more of a big picture guy. And I'm terrible at process. I really am bad at process. I don't like the details. I don't like black roads, I like to look at big picture, big picture, how are we going to get some? Yeah, I guess that is me. So this is really cool. You know, when you say your big picture. So the crystal knows tool is great. And if you can memorize what a D is, and n is it's really good. But I was not able to really internalize that, until I found this book by Mark Rosenberg called taking flight. And Merrick Rosenberg took the D, I, S and C, and he put it to birds. And then he defined the birds. So when you said you're a big picture guy, that's because you're an eagle. And so in mirik, Rosenberg's analysis of this, the eagle is exactly that the big picture guy soars at 10,000 feet, you know, looks at things from down below. And then the old, the C's are the accurate, precise, analytical, correct, you know, a C in the disk. And, you know, typically the hours will be your, your CFOs, your architects, your analysts, matter of fact, our analyst is a pure C, then the the eyes are apparent. And you know, they're the salespeople, determing, enthusiastic, inspiring, they're the, the people at the networking event, chirping around and talking to everyone seems to meet everyone in the room, and then the S is the dub, and they're supportive. They're nurses and social workers. And let me ask you a question, Can I Can a C become a D? Are you if you're a C, if you're an S, you're always going to be an S, or a C, you're always going to be a C, can, can you learn to be me, I would think that, you know, on this pecking order, at least maybe from my perspective, that I'd want to be dominant, I wouldn't want to be the support person. But if a supportive person wants to become a D, can they do it as a way for them to do it,

You know, they can certainly learn skills in there's, you know, there's ranges and all these things. And in when you do the disc, like, not everybody's a pure D, like, some people are the eyes, and they're much more, you know, interactive, and influencing in the eyes inspirational. And, as a matter of fact, I'm meeting a lot of attorneys. And by the way, this is how I'm using this tool. So before I have a sales meeting, I'm looking at their DISC profile, and at least getting a picture on my mind, you know, is this a D? Is this someone who's gonna want me to get to the point right away? Or are they a C? Are they an owl, and they're more analytical, and they're gonna want to see some charts and see some stuff? Where are they at, if they bear it, you know, they, they're gonna want to hear how great they are, I'm gonna let them talk for most meetings. So that's how I use the tool, I would have guessed it, if I took this 25 years ago, before I started my business, when I was an employee, I was probably a little bit more of a See, I was definitely very analytical earlier in my career, and I was less confident I was less of a problem solver and a results oriented guy. So I would say that you probably could shift over time. I've never looked at disk in a sort of high level strategic way. You know, this has been a great tool for me to understand, understand people a little bit before the meeting. And by the way, it's not perfect. Jesus 90%. Right. What I take people through this totally generally like, oh, my god, that's amazing. That's me. Oh, by the way, I've been hiring just hired an account manager at a business development manager. And it's a great tool for hiring to get a feeling for what that person is, will they complement your skill set? Do you think that this could help somebody be in the one of the four categories that they want to be the most comfortable in? Can you learn from as to what you have to do to get to a different category? I would think it's a little I would describe it a little differently, like, you know, if you're in so if your support, you know, you're just very sympathetic, like I said, the nurse, that social worker, but you know, you had to sell a little bit for your business, you had to learn to be a little bit more dominant. I think it would help you recognize your skill set record. And one of the things that's very revealing about these tools, I find is it's like, okay, now I understand. You know, now I understand why the salesperson can go work in a room, and why I'm a little bit more reserved when I go to a networking event. And now I understand the skills I need to learn, at least to be comfortable approaching someone in a situation where I would have been uncomfortable before, had I not learn those skills. I don't know if it can teach you the skills, but it can identify who you are, allow you to be comfortable with that. And then you can, you know, there's a lot of these skills that we're talking about today, like networking, personal branding, business building, that I've certainly learned over the 20 years because Lord helped me 20 years ago, when I started my business, I didn't know how to network, I didn't know what a one on one meeting was, I didn't know how to sell, I've had to work very hard to learn these skills, because I was a marketer before I became a business owner.

So I think it's important, at least in the legal profession, that you have professional, a high feeling of your professional abilities. If you don't believe in yourself, as someone who solves the problem, you're never going to have clients believe in you, you have to believe in yourself. And, to me, that means that you have to have that personality, and you're going to dominate a room, you're going to be able to tell people, This is what we have to do. And this is how we have to do it. People have to believe you. Because if you can get that across to clients at a meeting, both clients are going to be your clients forever. They have to feel that you're the top dog, that you have the competence and you have the ability to get what they need. Don't fake it till you make it.

That's right. I think it's easier for you to have confidence than the young lawyers.

As a matter of fact, my granddaughter gave me a mug that said Grandpa knows everything what he doesn't he'll just make up. It's kind of what I do.

And that, by the way, that's important in business some so you asked about AI tools. And there's another one everybody knows, but I'll give you a couple tips for using it. And it's chat GPT. The cool thing is I wrote a note into chat GPT earlier today said, please write 20 Great questions to interview a very successful law firm owner, and businessman about networking and tips for young lawyers to build their own book of business. This is for a new podcast episode for 10 golden rules, Internet Marketing for law firms podcast, and I gave it a link to the podcast. And sure enough, in about four seconds, I had 20 questions. So let me give you one of those questions. Because this is a really good one courtesy of Chet GPT. And good props, by the way. So that was my tip is if you give it a very specific set of boundaries, you know, like right, 20 questions, I got 20 questions. So number three, can you identify a pivotal moment in your career where networking made a significant difference?

Well, networking to me, had a lot of different pivotal moments, but it has to do with who I met through the network. I'm constantly networking when I was younger, I was networking with younger people, less established people. But whatever I'm networking with, I'm trying to find people that are going to take me to a pivotal point. I mentioned something about the young Korean lawyer I mentioned about the the woman who was the editor of the real estate weekly, also pivotal moments in my life not so much in how I approach networking. Now I approach networking a little differently, in that I don't look for people to give me business anymore. I look to give people business because if I'm giving people business, I'm going to be a top of their mind. And they're gonna want to forgive me because I don't have to ask for business. They want it's they're excited to give me business. They want me to be even think of them. So it's not so much the pivotal moment in my network. It's it's the events that happened during your life while your network.

Well, the party is breaking out here. I think the bachelor party just arrived. So I'm going to give you one last question. Sure. And I gotta be honest, this comes from chat GPD. But it sounds like I wrote it. To wrap up. If you could give just one golden rule for young lawyers striving to build their own book of business, what would it be,

make sure that you don't just do legal work, you have to devote a segment of your day, to networking, going to events to meeting people, or just on the phone, every person you spoke to was potential networking, you have to spend a lot of everyday doing is like, it's like your savings account, you save every year. By the time you've retired, you have a lot of money, but you can't just wait till later on, just do the legal work, because it won't be appreciated and your firm. In most cases, you're never going to get to be the partner in most firms, unless you can bring in business. And if all you're going to be is the guy that's going to be the worker, you're not going to be as successful. So you have to take care of yourself and you have to make sure that you devote some time into networking and working with guys like Jay, who will give you those candidates and follow those 10 rules and you'll be successful networker yourself, and you'll be top dog.

You know, one last thought because you mentioned something on the webinar, and by the way, if you want to see the full webinar, it's on our YouTube channel 10 golden rules, just go to our social and go to the YouTube channel, and find the rainmaking webinar has been viewed over 15,000 times what you said was, you had like a magic question. And you said that the story you told you like if someone's buying a restaurant, and they're coming to you to do the legal work, you ask them well, who's your banker? Who's your accountant? And invariably, they'll say, you know, we've got this big bank, but they don't really, you know, they don't really care about us personally. And I've been really disappointed with them. And that's like a magic question, because you have a relationship with a banker who we both know and love. And so you would refer their business, say, why don't you talk to my friend. So a lot of people say to me, like I know you're supposed to give to get, which is the slogan of our, our, our networking group. But a lot of people don't know how to find those opportunities to do the giving, that gets you the love in return. So talk about that magic question. And how you ask it now you uncover opportunities

for your network, think I did touch on this before, you know, whenever I meet a new person, I want to kind of get into my conversation, who's their banker, who is their accountant, who they use for different types of work. Because if they show that there is an opening there or change, I want to make sure that I have a network of peoples who I'm compatible with, think that I either either network with a good networker and send the business because the best way to get business through networking is to give. If you give, you're not always gonna get if you give. And I have people that send me a lot of business, and I don't send them very much at all, and vice versa. But the best way to do it is to have that network and get those chips. Every person you meet, is if it's not a potential client for you, it may be a potential client for somebody else that you are networking with. So you want to make sure does that person have a will, maybe you don't do a stapler, but maybe you have some lawyer that does a steak work, and you want to send it to maybe that person, they'll send you something back. So you want to make sure that you have these people in your network where you could send to, and I would try to get people who were basically on on your level, maybe a little above, professionally, and how long have they been practicing or how far ahead they are in the career. Don't find the guy who's at the end of his career. If you're a young lawyer, find someone that you can grow. And if you can do that, and you could get these chips, and you remember everyone you talk to you, you'll be able to successfully grow your network and be very successful in your career.

Howard that was awesome thank you so much for for doing this again, in audio format. Where can people find you if they want to network with you or or send you some great business?

You can find me at h Rubin HR UBI N. Get Spitz GOETZ fitc.com That's short for Goetz Fitzpatrick That's my law firm here in New York. And if anyone has any questions, I'd be shoot me an email and I'd be happy to answer. Thanks.

Thank you so much.