132: Law Firm Strategist Erica Caviness Shares How Firms Can Grow with Purpose

What's one piece of advice you would have for a smaller firm, someone who's just maybe leaving the nest? Yeah, they've been working for someone else, and they're going to start up their firm. What's the number one piece of advice for that person? Make

a list of your non negotiables and start there. So let's say you have three to five non negotiables that you when you get to the end of the next 12 months, right? This has to happen, or these things shouldn't happen, right? And then reverse engineer that. What do I need to do? What do I need my

what's an example of a couple non negotiables for a startup? I

think the first one would be no client goes more than an X X number of days without being communicated to or we are going to deal with any potential client vendor relationship with the utmost integrity. And if there's any misalignment there, we're going to end that relationship immediately.

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time you're listening watching this podcast. Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules Internet Marketing for Law Firms podcast. And obviously it is cocktail o'clock here where we are. Erica cavidus is my guest today, and we're at the National Trial Lawyers in South Beach, Miami. Erica, you're having fun.

So much fun. My favorite conference of the year for sure. And we said

we'll do this at the end of the day, it'll be nice and quiet in my boot. This is a 10 golden rules booth, and sure enough, there's a cocktail party today right here, right outside. Our booth got a great location, so it's going to get busy. We're going to spend some time today learning about Erica's background and talking about marketing and coaching for law firms. Erica's worked in with law firms for how long? 1010, 12 years, and coaching and helping offers. So we're going to try and extract some nuggets. But first, let's tell everyone a little bit about National Trial Lawyers. You said it's your favorite conference. Why is it your favorite conference? I think

the number of just dedicated law firm owners and their teams that come here, right? And they're the content that's lined up. Everybody's here to not only network, but also really share tangible insights and advice. And it just the Miami scene. When you combine all of that with the the networking, it's just, it's,

yeah, I would it's among my top three. It's definitely my number one conference. Is tgr, live growth strategies for law firms. I'm hugely biased, okay, but I'm not sure what time we're airing this. Check the agenda, because you could be watching this any month of any year, right? But we do an annual conference in March in South Florida, so also beautiful weather, maybe even a little bit more reliable weather in March than January. Yes, because, trust me, if you were here last week, it's really cool, but this week's beautiful for national travelers. I think the magic of this event is they do it at the lowest hotel on South Beach, right? And it's very compressed. We're in the exhibit room. There's one exhibit room right then. Over here is a conference room all about law. Over there is a conference room all about the business of law, where I spoke about marketing, you're probably speaking in business of law, yep. And if you want to come and meet a bunch of great vendors, bunch of great lawyers, National Trial Lawyers in January, highly recommended Erica. Enough about National Trial Lawyers. It's a great. This is a great. This is not National Trial Lawyers lunch. This is about you and your journey. And tell us, but you became a really respected coach in the legal industry. Tell us about your journey and how you developed your business. I'm

first of all, thank you for having me on the show here. I'm so grateful. I'm a huge fan of your work as I shared. And I have always been someone who wants to help others further themselves, and my company Thrive concepts we've developed from my late mother's lessons that Shelton me that we want to thrive and not just keep by and survive, so I chose that name for legacy. Thank you and peace. Thank you so much. It's been such an amazing journey to be able to share things I've learned I've worked for larger companies, and I'm so grateful to them for teaching me things and helping me really see the path that I know that I was called to do, and that's helping law firm owners grow strategically and help they're also helping their leadership teams follow suit and take the pass the baton and really help them further their business.

Fantastic. So what does an engagement look like? What size of firms are you helping, and what subject areas are you helping them with? And what does that look like?

Yeah, so anyone from a solo practitioner, I work with firms over 100 team members as well. So any revenue, use your imagination. With that revenue, there's really no, no set range. Really, I just, I need to work with someone who is growth. Minded and who is willing to kind of break the mold on what they've always done, and they're willing to test out tried and true things, but maybe it's new for them, right? So it's not necessarily a brand new concept, but it's something that they haven't done before, and I love

that you've defined that growth minded. It's something our team's been talking about a lot, and we're getting more picky about who we work with, right, right? Because, yeah, you're right, if somebody doesn't want to, if they don't want to grow, I mean, everybody says they want to grow up to the most part, but we have to just, yeah, they're not willing to take to make changes to grow right? A lot of times we stumble, because one of my pet peeves is website chat. Yes, you know what I'm talking about, right? So we find that when you add the little chat box to your website, and we, like intaker juvo leads Apex chat, we see a 20 to 30% increase in leads,

right? Measurable, straightforward, right, yeah, like

you're getting 100 leads a month, right? You add chat, you go to 121, 30. Why is that? My theory is some people are never going to call you, right, or at the time they're doing the research, they could be literally standing in line at a bank and they're on your website, they're not going to start a call with a law firm, and some people are doing research for their aunt who had an accident or is going through a horse or something. They're absolutely never going to pick up the phone. It's not their case, right? And they're definitely not going to fill out a form on your website. Again, it's not their case and or they don't want spam, right? So chat fills that gap and there's 20 to 30 leads. But I explain this to people and they're like, No, I don't like chat. I never use chat. Chat doesn't work. I'm telling you, from 100 clients experience, right? I can increase your leads 20 30% if we have that conversation out of the gate. Sometimes I'm like, this ain't going anywhere, right, right? I love that growth minded, right? Um, what else makes a win?

I think that, as I mentioned before, we've gotta define what great looks like at the onset, right? So we need to make sure that we are on the same page as to in three months, six months, 12 months, when it when we're measuring results, right? What are the things that need to happen for us to say, Okay, this was successful. We want to continue to do this together and scale this right? So let's hear your definition of success. I love also. I love meeting clients. No, who? Who does the numbers? You do the numbers. Do they do the numbers? We do it together. So I'm working with the firm owners and ideally, their leadership teams, right? Because I need, I want this to be something we can really scale, no matter where the owner is and right, we've got a strong home base outside of the owner that we know that we can if the owners, with his or her family and on and leaves the country for three months, that firm is going to not just survive, but thrive, right? We want to work with us, with the leadership team, if possible. Or many firms I work with, they don't have a leadership team yet, so I help them install that and really pick those key players who are up for the challenge of furthering the firm. Lately, do all this together, though it's very it's a collaborative effort.

Lately, I've been coming up with a lot of themes in my podcast interviews. The other day, we did Top 10 Strategies for networking, yeah, yeah. Rain making, yep, and we just built it on the fly with my interviewer. Sounds like we're developing a theme, and I don't know if you've seen it, but this is a theme of how to get good results from your strategic consulting partners. Right, right. Number one, you gotta be ready to grow. Number two, you gotta be open to at least testing the advice from your partners. And number three is numbers. And this, this is with or without your partner, right? Gotta be super numbers oriented. We're running the EOS system, and I know we both are big fans of right, the Entrepreneurial Operating System, absolutely. And we have a scorecard, and every week, we're looking at our scorecard, and every month, when we meet with our clients, we're looking at their numbers,

right? So it's impossible to, it's impossible to get to the end of a quarter throughout half the year, or, God forbid, the end of the year, if you, if you have those things in place, it's impossible to be surprised as to where you're at, right? And you can get the car out of the ditch if you need to.

Well, so we got three, like, we're building a theme here. Yeah, what else is something you would say that helps a law firm succeed and succeed with or without working with a consulting firm? Yes,

being willing to get outside your comfort zone, test things out and have a finite set time that you measure that result and then pivot if needed, right? But don't fear getting uncomfortable. I think that was a huge lesson for me. Personally, it's throughout my career that mentors have instilled in me and we're human right. We want to be comfortable like we were creatures of habit. We want to get into get into our routines, get stuck in those but it's not always the result. That we want. So being willing to step outside that comfort, comfort zone, get into that growth zone, and look at different ways, let people, let others who have done what you want to do, speak into you, and you give you that wisdom.

I like that one. Um, here's a simple one. How about answering the quote, yes. Do you do a lot of work on intake with your clients.

I'm definitely not the intake expert, so I don't focus primarily on that. I do focus and hone in on referral generation, and of course, the intake has to be a part of that training and boot camp program that I do because they're the front line of defense. They're absolute. I'm so in all of intake teams and and across across our industry, but specifically with the clients I work with. I get to know these folks extremely well, and you've gotta have empathy. You have got to treat that person. You may have heard that question 87 million times that week, but that is the first time that potential new client has asked you, and you've got to have empathy. You've gotta be a person. You cannot be a chat bot. You can't have that chat bot voice. You can't have that I'm just getting through a script. You've gotta have empathy. You've got to make that person feel like they are your number one priority. Yeah. Cuz,

nine times out of 10, if someone's calling a law firm, they're not going through a happy time, right? They're in the, probably the worst, fighting with a partner, right? They're considering divorce, they were in a car accident, or they're hiring a lawyer to help. Now, there are a few good times you're buying a new home, that's right, things like that. There are, there are a few times when you call a lawyer, when you're really excited, right, right? But empathy is super important, really critical. Yes. What's another area that was very important in the consulting relationship and making things work for Lacher,

I think operations is another one of my passions. And whatever specific system you're using, there's many great systems. We mentioned Eos, we both advance that. There's many, there's wonderful systems across there's not just one, long story short, we know that, but whatever you're doing, whatever blend you're using, make sure that you have communicated that to your team. And everybody is operating under those processes and under those systems, they're not doing their own thing, making sure that you're aligned, and you're clear in your communication with what we're doing, what we're traction, actually,

I think that's one of the best things about Eos, yeah, is it rolls down the leadership strategy to your team, and it gives you a nice, easy way to do it. Right? The scorecard, we published our scorecard. I saw Mike Morris speak today, right? He calls it a jumbotron, and they got a big, huge TV screen in their office, and everybody can see all the numbers for the day, the week, the month, year over year, right? And we do that in all our team meetings and all our client meetings. Yes, we talk a lot about the scorecard, but yeah, I love that. Like that component of Eos is it gives everybody a common terminology, and so everybody knows what we're trying to do, right, quarterly, annually. What's our five year goal? Our 10 year goal, right? That's our mission, our vision, our values. Love it. I

would add to that the if there's anything in your law firm that you are wanting to change and ideally grow right? But if anything's not working, suffice to say. Or if you want to scale something or grow something, make sure you have someone. If I ask you, who's in charge of that, and you can't give me a name, I love that, yeah, make sure that you move towards getting a person who owns that result of that outcome. I have for far too long, I've seen and there's there's intentionality behind it, right? It's not just the next foreign body, but you want someone who has a proven track record in your firm, ideally. But if you are hiring brand new for a role, I have systems in place that I can help you do that or make sure that you're making a good decision, but make sure you have a name attached to that result, and there's one clear owner for that part of the business. That's probably the most helpful tip I could give. No

smiling so big when you said that for two reasons. One is, we're at a cocktail party. We're at, yeah, now there's a video crew shooting us. People are coming by to say hi, right? So we're we've seen a teeny bit distracted. Guess what? Right? We're doing our best, right? But when you said that, I heard Elon say exactly the same thing the other day, and he said that at SpaceX, every rocket part has someone's name attached to it, right? And if something goes wrong, somebody's held accountable, and at least they know to go, who to go to if there's, there's a blog, right? Uh, hopefully there's no big problems coming up when, when they have people flying on these rockets, right? But I think that I immediately fix that to my business. Like, yeah, in Eos, everybody's supposed to have a number, and everybody's supposed to be accountable for those numbers, and those numbers build up to your scorecard. In how your company's performing, exactly,

yes, and that the clarity around the conversation there is huge. That if that is not communicated to every single person who's touching that scorecard, I have team members who are on an operating system, but they don't even realize it, because that hasn't been communicated. So that's so important. What's

one piece of advice you would have for a smaller firm, someone who's just maybe leaving the nest? Yeah, they've been working for someone else, and they're going to start up their firm. Yeah, uh, what's the number one piece of advice for that person? Make

a list of your non negotiables and start there. So let's say you have three to five non negotiables that you when you get to the end of the next 12 months, right? This has to happen, or these things shouldn't happen, right? And then reverse engineer that. What do I need to do? What do I need

my what's an example of a couple non negotiables for a startup? I think the

first one would be no client goes more than an X, X number of days without being communicated to or we are going to deal with any potential client vendor relationship with the utmost integrity, and if there's any misalignment there, we're going to end that relationship immediately, right? So I think there's gotta be, and I'm just using three to five to an arbitrary number here, there's gotta be those things. And this is not port. Values are one thing, but these non negotiables are something that you live and die by starting out in a smaller capacity. If you start there, you can't go wrong. You can always build from there. But if you just jump into an operating system or a scorecard right, and you miss that non negotiable piece, that will backfire, in my opinion, great,

and that's something for someone started up. Now, give me the advanced stuff. What's some of the best advice for someone who's hitting that next level? Maybe one, 3 million, 5 million, 10 million? Yes,

if you do not have an official executive leadership team in place, please, that is your next non negotiable, I would say, is that to start,

to start putting a leadership team in place

so that I mean it, it can vary. I would say, if you are feeling so, if you are feeling at capacity and stretched in and there are things that you want to do, but you are not the expert in them, or you do not care to personally do them, that is your sign to that you have to have a you need to build out your leadership team, right? I

had two thoughts when you said that one person's not supposed to have more than seven direct reports. Yes. And EOS says eight to 10 is a great time to really do a full implementation right of the entrepreneur operating system. So once we passed 10, we for two years, we self implemented. We had our own quarterly rocks meetings, right? We had our own scorecard. We did out of the books, right? And there's great books, by the way, traction and get a grip. Is the book for the visionary? Yep. I say this on almost every podcast, yeah. But when we started in January 2024, with a professional implementer trained in the US system, and things have just taken off since then. It's really great, yep, so I think 10 plus is when, for us, is that level where we're like, at 1820 now, right? Everything's taken off. It's great, yeah, the US big fans, that's fantastic. What's your why? I always like the Simon Sinek question. If you haven't seen that, I think number one or number two TED talk of all time, yeah, finding your why. What's your why? What makes you tick in the morning,

I think the greatest professional blessing is to not only have the the ability, but the talent, to help others succeed and get to the next level. I think if you are blessed with that desire and that you've been able to develop that talent and skills through education, mentoring, just life on the streets, whatever you've done to get to where you're at, and you have that desire, and people call upon you for advice when you if you don't leverage that, I think that's a huge missed opportunity, and it really it does make me tick, and it's such a blessing to be able to be on the five fingers of so many amazing clients that I have that are that really wants to grow, and it's interesting.

I think I share that trait, because I really like to help people, but even more so I like it when they listen, yes, but as you said that, I'm thinking it's probably a trade of consultants, yeah, agency, service companies, we frankly, get motivated when we help you. You take our advice and it works, right? There's nothing better, right? Um, makes me super excited. So yeah, we're at that time in the podcast. The regular listeners. You're one of them, okay? So, yeah, this is our quick one liners, the short snappers. Yeah, been doing this for 15 years. Ready? First one. What apps or techniques do you use for personal productivity?

I love. Of slack. Huge fan for Yeah, we're big fan of slack. Yep, yep. I also, I mean, this is not a specific app, but I live and die by my calendar. Yeah. And I would encourage everyone to just like, up your game on your calendar, because that has the paper calendar's gotta go people. I do both. I do both. Alright, so, yeah, do you print out from the digital calendar. Do you write it in? No, I have, I have a physical planner that I carry around with me. But then you have to write in everything from your digital one. I try to do it at the same time so that it's locked and loaded like in both places I know too

much for me. Okay. Do you have a personal wellness and fitness routine? Yes.

So I am a huge wellness junkie, and I am very big into having a morning routine. Sunlight in my eyes, the very first thing that has been a game changer. A lot of these things, they sound kind of free through and you don't know what works to get to, just like we were talking about with,

yeah, you've had a couple you've got great warnings on South Beach in Miami. Yeah.

So you've got a testing out with that morning sunlight, I think is huge, and then actually wearing blue light Whoppers in the evening. That's enough. That's a thing I've done for the past 11 months. And there I have measurable sleep results,

fantastic. Best business books. Oh

gosh, there's so many. I am a huge fan of CY Wegman and the reality based rules of leadership. I'm actually referencing some of her work tomorrow when I speak in the paralegal program. That's a new one to me. I'll have to check it Yes. And then the second one I give is the jolt effect. Jolt J O L, J O L, T, yeah, yeah. We'll get that one immediately. First full

time job I was looking at age, yeah. And our client was jolt cola. Remember that it was like, Pola with a triple the caffeine

that, oh, yes, oh, I do. Okay, yes. This was way back, short lived,

yeah, but I had, we got all this merchandise. So I had jolt Cola, T shirts and sweatshirts. Yeah, all my buddies had it. That was like, including Joel, one of my buddies, hey, I remember he launched that years that

and surge. That was a long time ago. Surge was,

yeah, some of those energy drinks have killed it, yep, blogs, podcasts and youtubes. When something hits your feet, something you subscribe to, you stop everything else, and you listen to or read,

Rob Huberman that it's a wellness it's actually wellness. But I firmly believe that helps business, that your wellness routine will further your business. If you are locked uploaded on

it, I gotta check it out. I got Dan Huberman in mine. Who's your NFL team or sports team? I'm

not a huge sports fan. Obviously, they're not gonna say,

obviously, can I ask the question? Just because it gets an interesting year.

And I hesitate. I'm saying obviously, because

I had to hesitate. I mean, I'm because I'm in I'm Atlanta. I'm not going to be a fair weather fan. I'm going to say Hawkins is good. No, I know. Not this year, but not this year. Yeah. And last couple questions, what's a great introduction for you? Who do you want to be introduced to?

Yeah, so going back to that. Anyone who wants to grow, and anyone who is feel like feels like they're missing that piece, I would be so

grateful to me. And where can they find you to make that introduction

so you can find me on LinkedIn. Erica caviness, my profile. I'm very active on LinkedIn. My Website, thrive concepts.org, you can fill out a contact form there. My email is erica@thriveconcepts.org

Erica, this is great. Thanks for doing it. Thank you so much for having me. That's a wrap.

See you guys soon.