Unveiling The Power Of Non-verbal Body Language With Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski

Welcome to the speak In flow podcast. Dear

listeners, I am so thrilled to have our esteemed guest today,

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski. She's a founder of culture by choice and

productivity by design. She's an expert and product project

management. And so we can learn so much from her. Welcome, Kimi.

Glad you're here. Thank

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Thank you, Melinda. This is This is

wonderful. Among other things, I think it's terrific that you're

focusing on executive communication. Because that's

such a big key.

I can't wait to dive in, you focus on product

management project, actually tell me a little bit more about

what you do tell the audience so they get some background and

context?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Well, I'm a project manager. And like most

of us, I fell into it come from a technical background, grew up

with computers, in a different way than some of the generations

now have the computers now we're getting mature at the same time.

But as a result, when you become really good at what you do, and

you get promoted, that's when you find out, excuse me, but

they didn't mention anything in the programming class about how

to communicate with actual people instead of modules. So

that's what we focus on, we focus on giving our technical

colleagues a little bit of a boost in areas that they're,

they've got a great deal of potential for wonderful skill

levels in it, they just didn't have the the formal training or

the academic training in it, because they were focused on the

things that got them to the promotion into leadership to

begin with their technical skills.

And that is why I'm so excited to because we're

mirroring leadership development, project management

with, you know, people out there are experts in their fields. And

yet, you know, having the right leadership having the right

communication skills are so essential, and so I can't wait

to dive in. So what I found really interesting about what

you do is you have seven key success parameters for project

management. And so can you tell us more about that?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Well, these are parameters that if

they're within the organization's culture, can

really raise your opportunity for project success. And what's

important about this, from the perspective of an executive

communications perspective is this. It has to be a daily

choice to reinforce these kinds of cultural parameters. That's

what we mean by culture by choice, a culture is going to

develop, whether you want it to develop in the direction you

want it to or not. Now, that's going to be dependent on every

single choice you make with every single person that you

deal with. So your leadership becomes amazingly critical. And

we start out with things like clear definition, ownership,

which is, you know, a concept everybody tends to buy into

without being very clear about what they mean, remembering who

we're doing this work for, we're not doing it for ourselves,

we're doing it for our clients or our end users. collaborative

spirit is probably one of the biggest areas where it feeds

into executive communications and interdependency, if you

don't understand where all of the pieces fit together. You

can't help your people navigate that, and be absolutely rigorous

about quality. Mm hmm. You can put something out in you and I

have both seen it, we of course, would never do that. But you

could put something out really, really quickly, but isn't

something you're going to be proud of finding your name on in

five years, or not. And last but not least, all of those things

help you manage risk, a lot better. But in particular, I

think collaborative spirit is the one that that is a lead by

example, form of executive communication. It's

so interesting, because I didn't I just was

talking to a company owner who hired a CFO. But about six or

seven years ago, the CFO was highly intelligent, like an

action oriented person and told this this group of people has he

had probably, I don't know How many direct reports 50. But he

beat them up, he was really tough. And nobody liked it. The

team members didn't like it. But he got stuff done. Fast forward,

he just left. And now they hired a new CFO, completely different

collaborate collaborator, wants to build the team wants to build

people together, and and then slower, so they don't get as

much done. So I asked this business owner, I said, Do you

see a bit of a difference in the results in terms of business

sense in terms of business, but he like monetarily? Bottom line?

He said, I'm not sure yet. But I know, he goes, I don't think

somebody's a me he, he knows that the people are so much

happier doing their work. And I think in the long run, so he did

say that in the long run, it's going to produce better results,

maybe in the short run, not so much. But then your way. You

know, tell me more about that. What do you think?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Well, I think part of the basis of this

is that when people say we want you to collaborate, they're not

actually always sure about what they're expressing. For some

people, a collaborative environment means everybody has

a vote for other people a collaborative environment is,

look, I carry the heavy load. And I want everybody's input.

Understand, however, I will be the one who will ultimately make

the last decision. Well, if you can't make clear to the people

that you're working with, right, which definition you're working

from, then each person, when you hear something, you think, Oh,

well, of course, they're talking about my definition of

collaborative. So that makes sense. Yeah,

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: you know, so the other thing is, is I

think your business owner, client is very intelligent about

this, because the previous executive was creating an

environment that was rife for turnover. Yeah. And the problem

is, that's 300% of a person's annual salary is the cost that

the business bears when they lose someone who's been around

for maybe two or three years. And that's a huge amount of

money.

That's a huge

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: loss long term, it's going to show us

productive, short term, what you're doing is you're

reinforcing that you as a business owner, you're walking

your talk, you're saying, You know what, this is so important,

I'm willing to put my skin in the game as well. And I am going

to be the defender of perhaps a little slower ramp up for

results, but long term, the business is going to be

healthier, because the people are going to be more willing to

commit to it. Talks about engagement. That's nothing new.

Yeah, right. No, and I loved how you clarified

what does collaboration mean? And, and we're gonna go into

what does executive communication mean to you. But

But just touching on collaboration can mean so many

different things to different people. And as part of executive

communication, I think is being clear. Even if you just have a

collaborative of that word, there can mean a lot of

different things, to take the time to define that for you for

your team, so that people are clear, yes, we're going to

collaborate in this project. However, I'm going to be the

final decision maker, or you go into the project and say, hey, I

want everybody to vote on this as a collaboration method. And

so which one is it for you? Right, and the team? What makes

sense for the project?

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: And, and the funny thing is, is that

people will say, well, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I

shouldn't do that. I'm gonna come across as a little bit of a

dictator, or I had one person say, I have a feeling I'm gonna

come come across as a very dictatorial person. I said,

well, one, you are a very forceful and decisive

individual. So that's just going to be you. Okay, own it, live

it. And I'm glad you understand. That's how you come off.

However, people are going to be a lot more willing to work with

you, at your level of collaboration, if they

understand that that's what you're probably going to do.

Now, as you see how incredibly productive your people are, when

you demonstrate your willingness to actually behave in the manner

you're asking them to behave and you're, it's going to be a whole

lot easier for you to give up some of that much blunted

control, because results are it, the results are going to be the

final proof. And you're going to get better results over the long

term. And I don't mean decades, I don't even mean years.

Sometimes it only takes one project over, say, eight weeks.

And you'll, you'll see a visible difference in the level of

productivity and efficiency, not just in Thank heavens, less

retesting, because we were all actually talking to each other,

you know, thank heavens, better requirements definition because

wow, we made it a point to collaborate with our client, not

tell them that's a stupid thing to ask for. Or say it in our

minds and not ask them questions and then ignore the possibility

that the question might not have been one they can answer because

we weren't clear in the way we phrased it. So you know, this is

not when people say communication, I think they

forget that the way you behave, what you reward, and what you

note, that communicates volumes. And it's much more powerful than

anything you're gonna say ever.

Reminds me of this analogy of just just in regards

to parenting, because we think we're gonna tell our child what

to do you have to do this, you have to do this. And actually,

the best way to teach your children is how you behave.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Like Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm a big

country western fan, which I've had to defend from. But there's

a song where a father hits you know, the stoplight seems to

come, it goes straight from green to red. And he says a four

letter, he, and he's muttering under his breath. And then he

hears his four year old in the back, see who's had his, you

know, his McNuggets thrown all over him say a four letter word.

And I think it was my four year old said a four letter word. And

I was concerned. And when he asked the kid, well, where do

you learn that? He says, oh, I want to be just like you, daddy.

I'm gonna eat all my vegetables. So I can be big and strong and

hold Mama's hand and I'm going to be just like you. And the

father kind of hits his knees and says, Oh, my God, can you

help me be a slight, you know, better than I am? Because I had

no idea.

I mean, it's so true. It's so true. And you I

mean, you've worked at different businesses, and you can see the

different cultures within these companies. And even if you're a

team leader, what you say how you behave, just trickles down

it, whether it's conscious or subconscious, good just is, like

you said, it's developing a culture by choice, or you're

not, it's not a choice, you're just developing a culture. And

so who's you'd be more understanding or awareness,

aware

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: of you think about it. The definition

of culture for most working organisations is a commonly

accepted set of behaviours, and expectations. Which means the

minute you start interacting with somebody, you're starting

to build a culture, it may only have two people in it. But

you're already starting to build a sense of what can I expect

from somebody. So when you and I first started interacting, I

knew from the very beginning, I could expect a thorough,

thoughtful person to be working with and so the thing is, that

also encourages, you know, I pay a little bit more attention to

being a little bit more thorough, a little bit more

thoughtful, when I'm with people that I know value those things.

And I don't think that's because I'm a unicorn. I think that's

because I'm just aware that that's a way that I accept

leadership from other people. Because of all the work and

study that I've done. I've learned that that's the way

people accept leadership. They they look for ways that you can

help them be better.

You obviously you've done the work, you exude

so much executive rises, communication, your website, I

loved your story. You're a storyteller. And so I'm curious

how have you always had this confidence is presence.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Let me tell you a quick story. I almost

got fired from my very first big corporate job And part of it was

cultural. Because I was hired in, I was the youngest person in

the room. by more than 15 years, I was the only only one of three

women on a 15 person team. And I was the only person that didn't

have a college

degree yet. Okay. And after

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: about six weeks, my new boss pulled me

aside, sat me down, and he said, Kenny, I would really like to

keep you. He's it. The thing is, is when you accept a job from

somebody, you make a deal. You basically make a contract, we

give you money. You give us intelligence, judgement, and

experience. I haven't heard a peep out of you in our staff

meetings for nearly five weeks. We're not getting our side of

the bargain. Wow. He said, Now, I can tell you got on these

topics. He said, and I did a little research, I understand

you were raised by your grandparents in a fairly

traditional manner. And I said, Yes, I was. He said, Alright.

Here's the thing. I want you to go home and ask your

grandfather. What he would think of it. If he were to learn that

you had made a contract? A deal? Oh, wow. But you weren't

delivering your end of it. He said, We went because we believe

you're equal to us. So I appreciate you're trying to be

polite. But to be blunt, I'm not paying you to be polite. I'm

paying you to be a professional.

Wow. Again, me now I can.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: I can tell that story now. But I gotta tell

you at home and I had a really good cry and about a quart of

chocolate ice cream.

Wow, that that was a good. I mean, that's really

that's direct that hits full. Yeah, I would have had a quart

of chocolate ice cream as well.

Larry did his homework. And he had he knew why. Because

we come from multiple different cultures. I'm a fourth

generation Californian, not just a woman of Japanese ancestry.

You have to remember, all of us belong to multiple cultures, we

belong to the cultures of our schooling, our professions, the

kinds of companies we choose to work for. The kinds of bosses we

choose to emulate. All of those different relationships are many

cultures that make up our cultural persona. That's why I

tell people it's culture by choice. How you deal with a

person, establish it, every single choice.

And who you work with, right, how you deal with

them who you bring in. Yeah.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: I think that's what we mean, when we

say, well, I'd like you to interview with the rest of the

team. So we make that the good fit. Set.

Right, right. Okay. Uh huh. Right, right. And so how

did you overcome that challenge of stop, you know, being more

professional? In his words,

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: and less quiet? Yeah, one of the things I

did was I asked him for help. I said, All right, would you do me

a favour I said, at any point in time, if you think I'm about to

say something that you see me hesitate? Would you just tap

your glasses?

I love it. And Larry said,

Well, they're going to be caddywhompus on my face by the

end of the first meeting, but we'll do it. I said, Okay. And

then I said, Would you also help me find someone, another woman

in this district that I can call on for advice every once in a

while I said, I really appreciate what you said. And I

would, I think I need to also expand my mentors and advisors

group. So

yeah, the journey, the journey right to have

someone hold you accountable, to have a mentor to have someone to

talk to work through the different challenges, resistance

obstacles. Mm hmm.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: There is one other thing that I found, we

all have the ability to enhance our strength in our different

roles in our life. And you spoke to parenting, for example, when

you're in your parent role, you bring out different kinds of

strength. Well, when I was on stage, you can touch me, I own

that stage, I'll five foot two of me. And Hillary's it. So this

is your stage on a professional level. He says, I want you to

borrow so that. And I would say I was incredibly blessed to have

mentors and advisors, and some of my very first managers that

led me say, okay, use this, use what you know, from here, use

what you do from there. And you know, if you have to put it on

like a jacket, when you come into the office. And when you do

that, you start to develop habit of hey, havior, and carriage and

communications that conveyed other people. I'm, I'm saying

this because I believe it to be the best course of action. I'm

saying this because I believe it to be true. And I'm asking

questions, not because I don't know, but because I'm pretty

sure you have something to contribute. And as long as

you're consistent in that, you will learn to be the kind of

person that you wouldn't mind following. I'm still working on

that, by the way. Well, that

sounded great, because you're saying what you

believe you're saying what you you want to own, but then you're

also asking questions.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Or you've got to, yeah,

yeah. And you're and I also hear that you had

different mentors, different people telling you, asking you

or suggesting different things, trying on one or two different

skill sets, and owning them and stepping into them so that you

can own that stage or own wherever you're going as a

leader, the different types of skills that you build over time.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: I think it's important because everybody

comes to their first quote, formal leadership role with a

whole life experience, right? It's not just who you are in the

office, it's who you are in your community. If you have an

athletic background, it's who you are on the field. Right?

bring that in. were absent. See that said, bring it

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: similar to what you did Melinda in terms of

okay, let me do a little bit of homework. Let me see if I can

learn a little bit about this person. You hear heard? Our

mutual wonderful admin, Vicki, I'm sure you kind of did a

little research and said, alright, what kind of work has

she done so I know where her stripe, sar gonna accomplish UI,

and we're harangues might make up for places there, okay, I

could do it. But I'm not going to be as good at it as you are,

you know, those kinds of things. If you're managing, you're

managing assets and resources, if you're leaving, you're

dealing with people. So get to know them. They're not just a

name badge or an employee number. Oh, my job description.

So

true. If you just get to know them, understand how

you affect them, get to know them, that will just help them

speed up any initiative project fast. Or at least with more

success, at least was more of a holistic perspective.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Well, and you can't help people grow to be

their best. Yeah, if you know absolutely nothing about who

they are to begin with. Yeah. You know, I will say though, in

the process of doing that, you might find some interesting

experiences. I had no idea you could cure him with Coca Cola.

But in getting to know one of my new technology specialists,

working with a government agency, I said so what do you do

in your free time and he proceeded to explain to me how

you can cure a ham with Coca Cola

that's only that's that's so funny.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: And I Okay, then he goes now you you

look like One of the, you know, steak people. I said, I'll tell

you, I said, Well, no, no, no, no, no, I'll take you up on that

challenge, you bring some of that in the office, I'll bring

my favourite dish, hell, we'll make it a potluck. And let's see

what we've got. And just just by having that conversation and

being willing, although scared to try Coca Cola gear, damn. He

and his colleagues, none of whom knew me beyond the fact that I

just walked in the door. Suddenly, you looked at me as a

person when I was trying to learn about them as people. And

so that's the bonus that you get, by the way. And it's a

great compliment when they're willing to look at you and see

something other than that pesky title or, Oh, my God, she's

gonna hurt me, you know, kind of things. So, right, there is a

huge problem.

Right? Right. And I think it speaks volumes of your

own leadership authenticity, ability to connect, I think that

speaks volumes, because they want to get to know you, they

want to get to know all the parts of you, right? So. So

there's, I think leaders that want to walk around, and I know

it all, or I'm the expert. And then they just talk about that

part, which is important. So your expertise, your knowledge

or experience, I think it just makes you more human, when you

can open up different aspects of you. And then that way, you can

connect with other people, and just a deeper connection. And

who doesn't want that, like, if you want to be known as a

memorable leader. It's about that deeper connection.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: And it's not about what you know, it's

about the relationship you built with them. Right? And it's about

what they're gonna remember. And the humility, right, we

talked about the humility, being vulnerable being

humility, you know, having a little bit yeah, of humility,

that I am a human.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Gentleman name, Casey, and I'm hoping, not

mangling his name. I do it five times out of 10, where the book

called how ambitious where he points out in eautifully,

straight forward fashion, that being humble doesn't mean that

you have to give up your ambition or your drive. being

humbled just means that you are ready to accept what you don't

know.

I love it. I love it. Not just acceptance. Yeah,

acceptance of what we don't and then

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: yeah, go out and get that.

One, exactly. Yeah, I can't I don't want to do it

all. That's okay.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: I'm kind of curious, because this is a

very powerful niche area, how did you come to realise how

important it is to help people understand executive

communications better? Well,

it's my own, write my own trauma, my own chat, and

I do say trauma. And I believe that we have we, and we all

experience it, there's no way around it as being human,

whether you call it trauma, whether you call it

uncomfortable experiences, passive, right, whatever you

want to call it, it can be different levels and learn to

learn. And it's that that blocks us when we have enough of it, it

blocks us from showing our full self. And like just what we

talked about just now I think leaders are able to show more

sides of them than just their expertise. And they're not

afraid of it, their acceptance of it. So but then if we have

that block of too much trauma, we don't want to show those

other parts other people sense I can't get I don't know who this

person really is. And so I really, it's a wall, there's a

wall. Yeah, they like and then so then when I was able to

overcome that and see the difference that it helps other

people make in terms of a presenters, perhaps a speaker

and she was the leader, then that's why I do what I do is

actually just feeling the vote their selves so they can be

whole and allow people to accept them as a whole person.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Do you know you've created an amazing

mission? Oh, because you're also human. You're not just helping

people grow their own capacity for executive communications.

You're helping their people around them to humanise them and

real and connect them at a far deeper level. And that is so

important. I mean, I'm so delighted that and I'm in awe

because that's a huge job you do Oh,

I love it. Nobody's ever asked me that in this

podcast, I really appreciate you as like guests asking me those

questions. So it's really yeah, thank you so very much.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Thank you so very much. It's quite

important.

Yes. So

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: I was just gonna say if I had to do it over

again, and I had a few less decades for my belt, I would be

right there with you. Because I think that is a a perspective on

leadership that could to easily get lost. So added

to it audit, you can add that to what you're

doing. I mean, it's already there. The the whole everything,

the structure, everything you're doing is already there. And I'm

sure you can you touch on. You talked about it in the

collaboration part.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No,

I your wisdom in choosing the word trauma and refusing to back

down from it. Because an uncomfortable situation begins,

we live through it, it ends. It becomes trauma, if it habits,

our future decision making. So I think that one of the powers

that you have harnessed is part of what we talk about all the

time, when we talk about clear definition. We're saying don't

just give somebody a dictionary, meaning help them understand the

context in which you chose that. That specific work. And I think

you you've harnessed the power of clear definition beautifully

in that particular choice. That makes

a lot of sense. Because you we have experiences

or stories, these events that create these stories that create

experiences, which then lead you to choose that specific word. So

what is the background of all of that, and that is why it's

important. Rather than just giving the word. I love that.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: If there is a very short book, we call

them commute flight reads, back in the day, when so many of us

commuted by blade, and it was called The Four Agreements by

Don Miguel Ruiz. And the first one was be impeccable with your

word. Right. And that always struck me. So I'm a little slow

to give promises, because I will break my back trying to keep it.

So there are promises that people have asked, and I'll find

a way not to ever make it because I don't believe I'd be

able to fulfil. You know, and that is, that is something else

that your people are going to see. If you break promises to

them. Even small things like, Hey, isn't that my turn to bring

the doughnuts. Right? Say, Well, if you're getting a break,

you're worried about them, you know, minor? What's going to

happen when there's a lot at stake? And it's a perfectly

human question to ask. I think. I think though, you want to one

of the things you want to communicate as a leader as an

executive or leader, or an executive who actually is a

leader. Yes, that you want to communicate that there's no

reason to ask that question. Right?

Ever. Right? Right. I love that. I'm learning so

much from you. They're learning so much from you. We do not ever

want to be fall back on her own integrity and be seen as such

because can't get back.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: You can't get her back. And I think for

most people know that. Don't you think most people know that?

They do.

But I don't think they consciously they know that

consciously. But they don't know subconsciously like what are

they doing without even realising that has a powerful

effect like like it may say, Oh, it's just a donor. I just it's

just donuts.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: So yeah, it's no big deal.

I guess I try other things. I get sidetracked. And

so you know, so subconsciously, yeah. So I we talk so we might

need to continue this conversation I am looking

forward to I just want to thank you and know thank you so much.

How would people get in touch with you? and learn more about

you and the work that you do or even want to start to have a

conversation how they work with you. Well, we have

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: leadership leadership group on Facebook.

And if you were to Google K SP partnership done.com, you will

find that we truly believe that you should be as straightforward

as possible. So somebody said, Well, why don't you put like,

why don't you take one of the peas out of KSP partnership? And

they said, Well, the reason it's there is because although my

godson says that he thought it meant came these superpowers, it

does not KSP partnerships stands for key success parameters. And

it's a partnership. So we've got about three full time partners

and Vicky, whenever I can get her some social media staffing

and help. But primarily, we work together as partners. There's no

it's my team. It's not, you know, that kind of thing. So

when I say clear definition, I say, we even, we even bet our

website name on it. You know, every single part of that the

company name is in there, because every single part

matters. So KSP partnership.com. And if you go on to LinkedIn, I

guarantee you, you will only find one, Kimi Hiratsuka Zemsky.

Love it. And I'd be delighted to connect but you have to say

Melinda sent me. Oh, cute. Okay. That way. Oh, no.

I love that. Reach out to Kimi. She's a wealth of

knowledge. She just brings so much wealth of experience. And

so don't hesitate. Don't have to reach out and thank you. So as

mentioned, Melinda sent you. All right. Thank you so much, Kimi,

it was so fun. Thank you

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: was this was a pleasure and an honour.

Thank you.

You Me too. Until I see you next time. Take care.

Kimi Hirotsu Ziemski: Take care.

Awesome