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Tune into why setting an intention of deep listening could be a business growth tool, because it overcomes some of the social norms accustomed to transactional rapid-fire communication, which misses out on facial expressions, tone of voice, hand gestures and someone’s posture and really understanding how you can help your client and team. Marni tunes gets into some juicy stuff, covering topics like full engagement of our brain power, decision making, improving our sales abilities by saying less and listening more. This is a value packed episode for building more leadership skills and success.
Marni Heinz BIO: Marni Heinz is a certified executive coach, sales consultant, and keynote speaker with over 20 years of experience at Salesforce, Google, and big 5 consulting. She’s an expert in helping companies, teams, and individuals achieve sustainable success by tapping into the power of neuroscience to create lasting behavior change. As a top performing enterprise sales leader at Salesforce, she’s worked with C-level and VP executives across dozens of companies such as Disney, Sony, Gap Inc., Experian and CBRE. Her human-centered consultative approach has led to increased revenue, improved productivity, and a frictionless customer experience for her corporate clients.
As an executive coach, she works with clients on topics such as burnout prevention, career advancement, leading with impact, emotional intelligence, and delivering + receiving feedback. A common theme among her clients – how to go from overwhelm and anxiety to ease, clarity, confidence, without sacrificing financial abundance. Marni’s answer – by focusing on what matters and taking intentional action.
Website - www.marniheinz.com
LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marniheinz/
#sustainablesuccess, #womeninsales, #saassales, #techsales
Standout buzz worthy facts... The content of what you say makes up only 7% of what you communicate to someone. The other 93% of what you communicate comes from non-verbal cues such as facial expressions, hand gestures, posture, tone of voice, pace of voice.
Decision making occurs at the heart / emotion level. Research shows that a majority of the decisions we make occur in the limbic part of the brain, the same place where we process emotions + memories. We then use logic and data to justify our actions. Make an authentic human connection with someone and your light years ahead. Sound like a robot - you're dead in the water!
Deep listening requires getting off your own mental map and getting curious about someone else's. Why is deep listening important? For companies or organizations, empathetic leaders who demonstrate deep listening contribute to an increase in innovation, higher levels of employee engagement, improved productivity, and lower employee turnover. In the sales profession, research shows that how much sellers listen has a strong correlation to their success.
About Melinda:
Melinda Lee is a Presentation Skills Expert, Speaking Coach and nationally renowned Motivational Speaker. She holds an M.A. in Organizational Psychology, is an Insights Practitioner, and is a Certified Professional in Talent Development as well as Certified in Conflict Resolution. For over a decade, Melinda has researched and studied the state of “flow” and used it as a proven technique to help corporate leaders and business owners amplify their voices, access flow, and present their mission in a more powerful way to achieve results.
She has been the TEDx Berkeley Speaker Coach and worked with hundreds of executives and teams from Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Caltrans, Bay Area Rapid Transit System, and more. Currently, she lives in San Francisco, California, and is breaking the ancestral lineage of silence.
Website: https://speakinflow.com/
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/speakinflow
Instagram: https://instagram.com/speakinflow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mpowerall
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Hello, welcome to the speak in flow podcast. I am
Melinda Lee:so excited to be here today to introduce our amazing speaker
Melinda Lee:expert, Marni Heinz. Marnie Heinz is an executive leadership
Melinda Lee:coach, she has so much experience over 20 years of
Melinda Lee:experience in technology. And she's worked at small little
Melinda Lee:companies such as Salesforce, Disney, Sony, and so I brought
Melinda Lee:the best of the best. And I'm so glad you're here, Marnie. Can
Melinda Lee:you share more about your expertise and some of your
Melinda Lee:experience with the audience?
Marni Heinz:Yeah, thank you. And thank you for having me. You
Marni Heinz:already did a great job interviewing me. So yeah,
Marni Heinz:executive leadership coach, also an expert in enterprise software
Marni Heinz:sales. So not that long ago, I left Salesforce was back in
Marni Heinz:October, I have 2022, where I spent 12 years in enterprise
Marni Heinz:sales space and in a leadership role, as well as individual
Marni Heinz:contributor roles covering some of the companies that you
Marni Heinz:mentioned, Disney, Sony gap, wide range of companies. And
Marni Heinz:yeah, so I got my enterprise sales kind of chops through
Marni Heinz:Salesforce and the training there. And then prior to that, I
Marni Heinz:have a whole other 10 year career in IT, where like most
Marni Heinz:recently leading Google I was an IT leader there covering
Marni Heinz:applications for the legal department, have some
Marni Heinz:experience, a big five consulting, and then also buried
Marni Heinz:and all of that history, I also was in a Ph. D. programme and
Marni Heinz:communication, something that people don't always know about
Marni Heinz:me. But in my 20s, I decided to venture out into academia, and
Marni Heinz:go explore that path. And so I also have some training in that
Marni Heinz:as well.
Melinda Lee:And what lights you up about executive coaching?
Melinda Lee:What was what makes you passionate about it?
Marni Heinz:I I'd say it's kind of funny, because now that you
Marni Heinz:bring it up in that way, I would say my superpower and my
Marni Heinz:strength is deep listening skills. So I have the ability to
Marni Heinz:listen and hear and understand beyond maybe the words that
Marni Heinz:someone is saying, it's actually the reason that I went into
Marni Heinz:sales. So when I was in it on at Google, I was seeing like
Marni Heinz:software vendors coming in and speaking, but maybe not always,
Marni Heinz:they were more pitching than they were listening. And that
Marni Heinz:didn't always land for me. And I didn't always feel like oh,
Marni Heinz:we're on the same page solving the same problem. And or they
Marni Heinz:really understand where I'm coming from. And so I said, Hi,
Marni Heinz:I have this deep listening skills, how could I take them
Marni Heinz:and turn that into something like in the sales profession as
Marni Heinz:a differentiator for myself, so it was the reason I went into
Marni Heinz:sales, I tend to get bored easily. So after 12 years in the
Marni Heinz:sales profession, I was really itching to move one into
Marni Heinz:leadership, but also coaching and mentorship and taking this
Marni Heinz:deep listening skills into a space where I could really help
Marni Heinz:people in a one on one capacity and potentially in like a group
Marni Heinz:coaching capacity. So it's that that natural strength or
Marni Heinz:aptitude that I had to really hear beyond maybe what someone
Marni Heinz:is saying on the surface that I wanted to kind of take to the
Marni Heinz:next level into coaching.
Melinda Lee:And we're so lucky to have this opportunity to say
Melinda Lee:because you have all this experience you curated from
Melinda Lee:these large organisations. And now today you're going to talk
Melinda Lee:about it, we're going to talk about what you learned in sales
Melinda Lee:and deep listening. And so what does make deep listening
Melinda Lee:important? Like you said, there's moments where you felt
Melinda Lee:like you were not heard people were pitching, and but what,
Melinda Lee:like, go a little bit deeper about what makes this skill so
Melinda Lee:important for people nowadays.
Marni Heinz:Yeah, I would say nowadays, Well, nowadays,
Marni Heinz:especially with, you know, AI and so much emphasis on
Marni Heinz:technology, and rapid fire communication, and more of like
Marni Heinz:a transactional way of engaging with people, I feel like deep
Marni Heinz:listening is now more important than ever, because at the end of
Marni Heinz:the day, a lot of big decisions are not simply based on factual
Marni Heinz:information. But the place in which those decisions are made.
Marni Heinz:It's in the Olympic part of the brain. It's where emotion is
Marni Heinz:stored, memories are stored. So we all think that we're making
Marni Heinz:decisions based on these really logical, you know, practical
Marni Heinz:sort of decision making skills. And there's this emotional
Marni Heinz:component that goes along with it. When you look at the
Marni Heinz:communication perspective of it, about 7% of our communication is
Marni Heinz:actually based on the content of what we say, and 93% Roughly,
Marni Heinz:and I know there's different studies on this, the numbers can
Marni Heinz:vary, but a high percentage of our communication is actually
Marni Heinz:based on nonverbal cues. That can include things like the pace
Marni Heinz:of your voice, the tone of your voice, it includes facial
Marni Heinz:expressions, if you could include hand gestures or the
Marni Heinz:posture in which someone is standing or sitting. There's so
Marni Heinz:much more that goes along and what someone is communicating in
Marni Heinz:terms of if you are if you are the one communicating and then
Marni Heinz:listening to someone else really paying attention to what the
Marni Heinz:other party is doing and how they're responding. And if you
Marni Heinz:see a disconnect in the words that they're saying, and maybe
Marni Heinz:their body language or tone of voice face, that's an indicator
Marni Heinz:that maybe it's time to pause and really better understand
Marni Heinz:where that person is coming from. And whether it's in
Marni Heinz:business or in, you know, in our personal interactions, it's
Marni Heinz:helpful to really get on the same page with the other person
Marni Heinz:to get to a desired outcome that's mutually agreeable for
Marni Heinz:both parties.
Marni Heinz:Melinda Lee:
Marni Heinz:Unknown:
Marni Heinz:Marni Heinz:
Marni Heinz:Melinda Lee:
Marni Heinz:Marni Heinz:
Marni Heinz:Melinda Lee:
Marni Heinz:Marni Heinz:
Melinda Lee:I hear a lot of people getting the training that
Melinda Lee:they need to listen deeply to look for those language cues to
Melinda Lee:stop if you're seeing someone withdrawal. At the same time, I
Melinda Lee:think it's really difficult for people to do that. The it's like
Melinda Lee:they know how to do it. But then they don't know how or they
Melinda Lee:don't, they don't end up doing it. What is it? Yeah,
Marni Heinz:yeah, I noticed the same. So for a lot of people,
Marni Heinz:what I would say is that the way in which we our natural tendency
Marni Heinz:is to process information is based on our own personal mental
Marni Heinz:map. So you might hear a word or phrase mentioned, and what
Marni Heinz:you're naturally going to do is all happens at the subconscious
Marni Heinz:level, is your brain is going to process that phrase based on
Marni Heinz:your own personal understanding of that term. So I can even
Marni Heinz:given that example for myself recently, at a woman sharing
Marni Heinz:with me, she was having challenges with some job
Marni Heinz:interviews and are landing in executive sales role at larger
Marni Heinz:enterprise companies. And she kept using the term matrix
Marni Heinz:organisation and I was like, I finally had to tell her every
Marni Heinz:time you say this term matrix organisation, I go backwards in
Marni Heinz:time to my PhD days when I actually did like a presentation
Marni Heinz:on the topic of matrix organisation. So when you say
Marni Heinz:that word, the way I interpret it is PhD academia 20 years ago,
Marni Heinz:communicate organisational communication, but I know that's
Marni Heinz:not what you intend. So it's this way, we naturally interpret
Marni Heinz:things ourselves based on how we understand and make sense of the
Marni Heinz:world. And the reality is for someone else that meaning making
Marni Heinz:happens in possibly a completely different way. So it's important
Marni Heinz:to check in with others to say, hey, what I'm hearing is this, I
Marni Heinz:know you're saying this, can you share what you mean by that? And
Marni Heinz:it could be a lot even simpler than that. But when you start to
Marni Heinz:notice a little bit of dissonance going on with
Marni Heinz:yourself and trying to understand or you hear
Marni Heinz:something, you go, Oh, that's I could interpret that two to
Marni Heinz:three different ways. And you're not sure which one just pause
Marni Heinz:and say, Hey, can you share more about what you mean by x y&z?
Melinda Lee:Mm hmm. What do you think are the components of deep
Melinda Lee:listening? Because I hear that you're saying it's being aware
Melinda Lee:of ourselves, when we're listening? What are the cues
Melinda Lee:that we're getting? Are we listening for a certain? How do
Melinda Lee:we interpret the meaning if it's clear if it's not, and so if
Melinda Lee:it's not, then then ask every paraphrase mirror or say it back
Melinda Lee:to the person to ensure you are listening deeply. And and so
Melinda Lee:what are those key components that you think are pertinent to
Melinda Lee:deep listening?
Marni Heinz:Yeah, I would say there's at least a couple. So
Marni Heinz:one would be if a person is saying one thing and then the
Marni Heinz:facial expressions or gestures or tone of voice indicate a
Marni Heinz:different thing. communication or message, that's an indicator
Marni Heinz:that it's important to pause and check in. Or evaluate if your
Marni Heinz:understanding is accurate and where they're really coming
Marni Heinz:from. I found this highly useful actually in the role that I was
Marni Heinz:in in sales and enterprise sales when you're in a tough
Marni Heinz:negotiation. The other party if you're like, hey, offering up
Marni Heinz:all these different deal structures, trying to a little
Marni Heinz:bit guess at what are the levers that are most important to them,
Marni Heinz:knowing they're not going to probably lay out all the cards
Marni Heinz:for you up front, you might say, Hey, we're willing to give you
Marni Heinz:instead of like a, you know, a five year term, a three year
Marni Heinz:term, if you get like almost a zero reaction from them, or kind
Marni Heinz:of like, they'll say, Yeah, sure, that's great. Or no, I
Marni Heinz:don't care. Like they, no matter what they say, if the tone is
Marni Heinz:kind of low, or they kind of move on to the next topic, it's
Marni Heinz:not the thing that's most important to them. So you now
Marni Heinz:have that information that you can make use of going forward.
Marni Heinz:So there's going to be a dissonance or disconnect in a
Marni Heinz:maybe a yes or no response. But the like, you might get a yes.
Marni Heinz:But then what you're actually sensing is a no in either tone
Marni Heinz:of voice or facial expressions. And that can occur with just
Marni Heinz:about anything. And then another is your own internal barometer i
Marni Heinz:That's the one I use quite a bit for myself is if someone is
Marni Heinz:sharing something, and I notice the that I am having trouble
Marni Heinz:understanding what they're saying. And I can come up with
Marni Heinz:the two to three different interpretations. That's an
Marni Heinz:indicator for me that it's a moment to pause. And so it's
Marni Heinz:it's a combination of your own internal barometer of just
Marni Heinz:pausing long enough to say, Do I understand what this person is
Marni Heinz:saying. And if you can come up with more than one response or
Marni Heinz:scenario, probably worth checking in, and then also
Marni Heinz:checking in with the facial expressions, maybe not being
Marni Heinz:congruent with what someone's saying, the final thing I might
Marni Heinz:share is like what I what I would do as a solution engineer,
Marni Heinz:actually, I would actually, like interview someone for 30 minutes
Marni Heinz:on what were their requirements in 30 minutes time, you've
Marni Heinz:possibly if you're doing a good job at Deep Listening builds up
Marni Heinz:enough report that in the last 1/3 of the conversation, they're
Marni Heinz:going to feel comfortable enough, sharing with you some
Marni Heinz:emotional balance of things that are important to them. And it
Marni Heinz:might not be in the words they're saying, but their tone
Marni Heinz:might like perk up, they might get really excited. They might
Marni Heinz:be like, oh, yeah, that you know, like there's a, the
Marni Heinz:inflection of tone or voice can be an indicator that that's the
Marni Heinz:pause moment to go back and check in and gather more
Marni Heinz:information. So I think it's also just really being in tune
Marni Heinz:with what someone's saying, and how tone pace of voice change at
Marni Heinz:key moments in time.
Melinda Lee:And then pausing and then noticing what's
Melinda Lee:happening within ourselves and assessing the situation, what is
Melinda Lee:happening with me, what is the best thing to say, to help
Melinda Lee:understand and get a better perspective of where they're at?
Melinda Lee:Because what they're saying might not be congruent with what
Melinda Lee:their reactions are. So it's kind of a dynamic between the
Melinda Lee:external and the internal.
Marni Heinz:For both parties, and sometimes it's okay,
Marni Heinz:depending on the situation to, I would say even name what you're
Marni Heinz:experiencing. Yeah, coordinate your noticing. So you might even
Marni Heinz:tell another person Hey, I noticed that you perked up or
Marni Heinz:that your your voice kind of like started to go up? Or you
Marni Heinz:start to speak faster at this one moment? Can you share what's
Marni Heinz:what's going on there? Like, you know, just share more about that
Marni Heinz:experience? And that giving the person the opportunity to share
Marni Heinz:rather than you jumping to a conclusion about what's going on
Marni Heinz:for the other person?
Melinda Lee:What are the concerns that people have with
Melinda Lee:calling out and seeing some of these things? Hey, I noticed you
Melinda Lee:perked up, or I noticed that you went through? What do you
Marni Heinz:Yeah, I would say, it's so funny that you're
Marni Heinz:mentioning it because I'm like, well, in the coach training,
Marni Heinz:I've gone through training as a coach, it just becomes more
Marni Heinz:natural, because you're going through repetitions of practice
Marni Heinz:of naming on someone's behalf in service of them as well as the
Marni Heinz:relationship. But I would say that, that for people that
Marni Heinz:aren't familiar with doing this skill or practising this skill,
Marni Heinz:it can feel quite vulnerable. Yeah. To ask someone to share
Marni Heinz:more in a moment that might feel sensitive or vulnerable. So
Marni Heinz:which I would just call out and name that's actually a very
Marni Heinz:normal experience to have, and to get to a different place with
Marni Heinz:that experience. It's practice and then also being self aware
Marni Heinz:of is that appropriate in that moment, given the context, if
Marni Heinz:it's a one on one conversation, there might be more room for
Marni Heinz:flexibility. If it's in a group meeting situation, maybe not. So
Marni Heinz:being contextually aware of, you know, the level of
Marni Heinz:appropriateness of of where to drill in and where to hold back.
Melinda Lee:How much of it are we bringing something like you
Melinda Lee:said, some experiences the subconscious moment Because the
Melinda Lee:drain quite a bit is it quite a bit? It's not a lot like how
Melinda Lee:much do you think? Is it?
Marni Heinz:Yeah, I would say so I didn't mention this in my
Marni Heinz:intro but I also have a master's certification in neuro
Marni Heinz:linguistic programming, which is the study of what's happening at
Marni Heinz:the subconscious level in terms of meaning making, we are always
Marni Heinz:doing our meaning making at the subconscious level, like we it's
Marni Heinz:not something that we can almost help or change it just is
Marni Heinz:naturally happening. So that could be beliefs, sensory level
Marni Heinz:experiences, memories, it's all kind of the filter through which
Marni Heinz:we make sense of the world. And so that's where the pausing
Marni Heinz:actually becomes important.
Melinda Lee:Right? And the pausing and also because when
Melinda Lee:we're noticing the other person we're listening to the other
Melinda Lee:person will also bring your own meaning into it. And then so
Melinda Lee:that's why the pausing helps us to differentiate between Is it
Melinda Lee:me, is it my own judgement, my own valuation? What I think
Melinda Lee:about this or is it am I really listening to the other person?
Melinda Lee:Or am I new even brought up
Marni Heinz:another consideration which I didn't
Marni Heinz:even necessarily name but it's there's also all of the like,
Marni Heinz:cultural considerations, our background or upbringing and so
Marni Heinz:that also is an additional layer on Yeah, I'm doing like a
Marni Heinz:training, or it's more of a volunteer programme, through an
Marni Heinz:organisation called calm clarity. On in the woman who
Marni Heinz:does that teaching her name is as way she comes from Vietnam.
Marni Heinz:She shares that like from her upbringing of coming over from
Marni Heinz:Vietnam, you know, for her parents, chicken feet are like
Marni Heinz:the best thing ever. You'd love chicken
Melinda Lee:sauce and soy sauce with the chicken
Marni Heinz:soup as either chicken feed I'm like,
Marni Heinz:Absolutely not. And she isn't same reaction, but it's just a
Marni Heinz:variation in experience for the same exact thing that we have.
Marni Heinz:And then also comes from, like a cultural upbringing.
Melinda Lee:I can imagine going into imagine for me going into a
Melinda Lee:situation maybe a masculine leader, and I'm a feminine I
Melinda Lee:brought it been brought up with being the women being more
Melinda Lee:submissive. And so how much of that is my cultural upbringing
Melinda Lee:that I already go into the situation? Just listening and
Melinda Lee:not really wanting to say too much?
Marni Heinz:Right? Yeah, that gets factored in, as well as
Marni Heinz:part of our social norms on Yeah, I do. Some facilitation
Marni Heinz:for a programme called I Am remarkable. And that comes up a
Marni Heinz:fair amount. So there's also considerations around gender,
Marni Heinz:what are the social norms and or upbringings that we come from,
Marni Heinz:that tend towards women potentially not speaking at
Marni Heinz:mismatch, or being a bit more passive or more moving in the
Marni Heinz:direction of a direction of active listening, but maybe not
Marni Heinz:speaking up? When it's an appropriate moment for our
Marni Heinz:voices to be heard of knowing those signals? And cues? Yeah,
Melinda Lee:so what do you recommend for me, because this
Melinda Lee:is so ingrained in us, this is subconscious, it's cultural,
Melinda Lee:it's like, we're not gonna When? When would you recommend for
Melinda Lee:someone, if it's so deep, such as, obviously work with you?
Melinda Lee:Right? There's nothing else that you could recommend. For us?
Marni Heinz:Yeah, I would say there's at least a couple of
Marni Heinz:things, I'm really big on intention setting. So I always
Marni Heinz:believed that the first starting point from which to have a new
Marni Heinz:and or different experience or develop a particular behaviour
Marni Heinz:is to have the intention to develop that skill, skill and or
Marni Heinz:change that behaviour. So you want to develop in the deep
Marni Heinz:listening area and or kind of overcome some of those social
Marni Heinz:norms that we were just talking about, let's say,
Marni Heinz:hypothetically, you're going into a meeting at work. And so
Marni Heinz:you could always set the intention to say in this
Marni Heinz:meeting, I'm going to practice two skills active listening, and
Marni Heinz:speaking up at an you know, editor moment in time where it
Marni Heinz:makes sense for my voice to be heard. And I'll do that at least
Marni Heinz:two times, or, you know, you can set an intention for yourself
Marni Heinz:before you go into an interaction. And then there's so
Marni Heinz:the practising something that's not natural for you. And so
Marni Heinz:there are ways that you can get into the repetition of, I mean,
Marni Heinz:it could be as simple as what I just described, hey, in the act
Marni Heinz:of listening, of like a one on one that you're dealing with
Marni Heinz:someone whether you're a leader or you are an individual
Marni Heinz:contributor with a you know, with with a leader, I'm going to
Marni Heinz:practice act as an active listening in this particular one
Marni Heinz:on one. And what that means for me is, anytime I don't
Marni Heinz:understand what the other person is saying, I'm going to pause
Marni Heinz:and ask for clarification. So if you walk into a meeting or
Marni Heinz:interaction setting the intention, you could even then
Marni Heinz:sometimes our brains can process information better or learn more
Marni Heinz:if we break things down, actually physically, so you
Marni Heinz:could even leave meaning giving yourself five minutes to write
Marni Heinz:down the things that you noticed that were maybe in from a deep
Marni Heinz:listening standpoint dissonant, or from what the person said
Marni Heinz:versus the facial expression. So you start to get into the habit
Marni Heinz:and build the skill in the muscle,
Melinda Lee:starting to be more aware, having the intention to,
Melinda Lee:to do it, and then starting to be more aware of exactly where
Melinda Lee:you're at. And have you done it or have you not and supporting
Melinda Lee:yourself to making it habit? Yeah,
Marni Heinz:you can also do that, as I'm sharing now, too. I
Marni Heinz:mean, in a work context, obviously, everything is there's
Marni Heinz:an interpersonal dynamic to it. And or even in a group context,
Marni Heinz:it's the the meaning making isn't just by you alone, there's
Marni Heinz:always another party involved within the outcome being
Marni Heinz:decision making, or you know, behaviour, a wide range of
Marni Heinz:things. So asking others for feedback, if this is something
Marni Heinz:that you're intentionally working on, whether that's a
Marni Heinz:leader, your peers, etc, say, you know, hey, this is something
Marni Heinz:I'm going to work on over the next week or two, I would love
Marni Heinz:to get your feedback, if you notice any changes between now
Marni Heinz:and this time, when I'm personally, you know, planning
Marni Heinz:to work on this. Mm hmm.
Melinda Lee:What about those leaders that want to say they,
Melinda Lee:they're there, they're there with the people. And there's a,
Melinda Lee:they ask for the feedback, and then they listen, but they
Melinda Lee:really don't listen, or they want to move on. Because we're
Melinda Lee:in this world where we do want to listen, but we also have a
Melinda Lee:lot of things to get done.
Melinda Lee:So what about what are some strategies for those leaders?
Melinda Lee:That I think they have, they want to strike that balance? I
Melinda Lee:don't know if they really want to, but because they have all
Melinda Lee:these other things going on? Yeah, it's, I
Marni Heinz:would say it's, there's an art to it for sure.
Marni Heinz:The most simple thing that I've noticed is the the practice of
Marni Heinz:naming. Uh huh. Um, so let's say, you know, like, something
Marni Heinz:comes up in a team meeting. And the last, it's a 30 minute team
Marni Heinz:meeting, the last five minutes is when the really juicy stuff
Marni Heinz:comes up from some team members. I completely like, now we're out
Marni Heinz:of time. Now. Yes, I mean, that those things happen. So you name
Marni Heinz:and acknowledge it, notice it, and then also share, and given
Marni Heinz:that we don't have much time left remaining, you know, here's
Marni Heinz:the focus for what we accomplished today, I do want to
Marni Heinz:make sure we cover this topic. And then as a leader, you could
Marni Heinz:choose to cover it, you know, for a bit of time in a one on in
Marni Heinz:a one on one or multiple one on ones, or is dedicating a portion
Marni Heinz:of the next meeting to that topic. So I think it's important
Marni Heinz:if something's important enough to others, and that's the deep
Marni Heinz:listening part is kind of tuning into how important is that thing
Marni Heinz:that just got brought up, to name it, acknowledge it, and
Marni Heinz:then you and then you also, as a leader, have to hold yourself
Marni Heinz:accountable, because that's important to build trust. So if
Marni Heinz:you say you're going to acknowledge it, and bring it up
Marni Heinz:again later and address it again later, then following through
Marni Heinz:with your action and your behaviours is important as well.
Melinda Lee:I agree, what do you think are the key challenges
Melinda Lee:that people have with that, as leaders of the the naming and
Melinda Lee:then bringing people listening in general?
Marni Heinz:Yeah, um, I'll be honest, I want to this is me
Marni Heinz:coming from the sales profession. We're in the sales
Marni Heinz:profession. They don't it's not a lot of there's not a lot of
Marni Heinz:attention. This is very well known on going from individual
Marni Heinz:contributor into leader in that particular profession. I, when I
Marni Heinz:decided to move into leadership at Salesforce, I interviewed
Marni Heinz:about 16 leaders. And I asked them, I specifically hand
Marni Heinz:selected people that had gone from individual contributor to
Marni Heinz:then first or second line level leader. And I just said, Hey,
Marni Heinz:what were some of your biggest learnings? What do you now know
Marni Heinz:that you would wish wish you had known then, the number one thing
Marni Heinz:that people shared was to show empathy. So what they learned
Marni Heinz:was, they were they were kind of taking a command and control
Marni Heinz:leadership style with their team, which wasn't resulting in
Marni Heinz:the behaviour and or performance that they were wanting to see.
Marni Heinz:So they really had to develop a new skill set, which is really
Marni Heinz:getting to know someone on a one on one level, they brought that
Marni Heinz:up as now they've realised they have to get to know each
Marni Heinz:individual seller on an individual personal level,
Marni Heinz:understand what their motivations are, and adjust
Marni Heinz:their leadership and management style to each individual person.
Marni Heinz:So what I would say the biggest challenges is that they don't
Marni Heinz:actually get training in that you're put into a role to
Marni Heinz:actually exhibit these other qualities and skills that are
Marni Heinz:required lacks a certain
Melinda Lee:level, right? And then, yeah, right, and then
Marni Heinz:developing those skills. And part of it is that
Marni Heinz:you know, more training and or attention given to the
Marni Heinz:interpersonal skills, the softer skills that are required to be a
Marni Heinz:great leader, because being a great individual contributor,
Marni Heinz:whether that's in sales, or could even be like in software
Marni Heinz:engineering, you're really good at coding. Great. Guess what? To
Marni Heinz:be a great leader. It's more than being really good at the
Marni Heinz:technical skills. It's a different skill set. So putting
Marni Heinz:it tense Knowing that in the movement and the shift from
Marni Heinz:individual contributor to leader, and then getting the
Marni Heinz:practice the accountability coaching can be helpful because
Marni Heinz:behaviour change actually takes time. There's research that
Marni Heinz:shows practising a skill over and over again for about three
Marni Heinz:weeks is enough time for it to start to become more ingrained
Marni Heinz:at the subconscious level. So you don't have to think about it
Marni Heinz:anymore. So that practice is so important.
Melinda Lee:So there's hope for us, there is hope. There is hope
Melinda Lee:for us even when it's a subconscious behaviour, there is
Melinda Lee:hope. Because we were aware, you're listening on a podcast
Melinda Lee:now that you're aware, you have the power to make a decision,
Melinda Lee:that an intention, whether this is something that you want to
Melinda Lee:improve something you want to dig deeper in, if you're not
Melinda Lee:getting the results that you are getting from your team, then it
Melinda Lee:could be because you're not, you know, maybe leaning in to deep
Melinda Lee:listening, having more empathy with your team members. Find
Melinda Lee:that out for yourself, right? What do you think is the
Melinda Lee:difference between empathy and deep listening? There?
Marni Heinz:It's so funny that you're bringing this up, because
Marni Heinz:I'm like, they're so interrelated. No, I actually,
Marni Heinz:strongly believe like, there's like empathy and trust are kind
Marni Heinz:of almost like, you want to show up with both empathy and to then
Marni Heinz:develop, if you show up with empathy, then you're naturally
Marni Heinz:going to be having the intention to really want to understand the
Marni Heinz:other person and step into their shoes. So you want to start with
Marni Heinz:from the place of being curious about the other person coming
Marni Heinz:from a place of empathy, which then can then spark the deep
Marni Heinz:listening skills, and make them more available to you as a
Marni Heinz:leader, which then the next thing that happens is you
Marni Heinz:develop trust and reciprocity. So it's kind of this it's this
Marni Heinz:cycle that kind of builds upon itself, that then ends up
Marni Heinz:resulting in higher performance. You become a stronger leader,
Marni Heinz:you build a trusting team. Retention is another thing that
Marni Heinz:will end up likely happening and or people might even want to
Marni Heinz:work for you you become the leader that people want to
Marni Heinz:associate themselves with. Mm hmm.
Melinda Lee:And how do if people are struggling? I know
Melinda Lee:that a lot of people are struggling with deep listening
Melinda Lee:or needing to uplevel as a leader, an Executive leader, how
Melinda Lee:would they get in contact with you? Or what are some things
Melinda Lee:that you have going on? In your practice?
Marni Heinz:Yeah, so I, there's really two ways, the easiest way
Marni Heinz:to find me is just to go to LinkedIn. So just find me on
Marni Heinz:LinkedIn, Marnie Hines, and at the top of my LinkedIn profile,
Marni Heinz:there's a way to actually schedule time with me. So I'm
Marni Heinz:happy to set up time and do like a 30 minute Strategy Session. My
Marni Heinz:website is also listed on my LinkedIn profile. And coming up
Marni Heinz:within the next three to six months, I'll be probably putting
Marni Heinz:more attention on like a focus coaching programme. For leaders,
Marni Heinz:I still have it available. Now I work with people for anywhere
Marni Heinz:from three to six months at a time. And even ongoing after
Marni Heinz:that, should there be interest.
Melinda Lee:And you got Marnie here, as a coach, I would be a
Melinda Lee:jump right at it, because you've coached so many people and so
Melinda Lee:many big companies, and now you're available to the world.
Melinda Lee:And, and I can sense right, your deep listening for others and
Melinda Lee:your deep empathy for others. And that's how you see people.
Melinda Lee:And that's how you help them to rise. And so we're so lucky to
Melinda Lee:have you out here. And thank you so much for sharing, this is not
Melinda Lee:getting the nuggets and the valuable information. And before
Melinda Lee:we end the podcast, I want to ask you one question, they asked
Melinda Lee:everyone, what is the key ingredient to unleashing our
Melinda Lee:leadership voice?
Marni Heinz:Oh, we already talked about some of them. Yeah,
Marni Heinz:I would say, Yeah, empathy. I mean, I just brought it up as
Marni Heinz:being the number one thing that was shared with me that then,
Marni Heinz:you know, trust, I think is also important. And then being self
Marni Heinz:aware. All of those are also qualities that are tied into the
Marni Heinz:deep listening skills that we just talked about, and results
Marni Heinz:in highperformance.
Melinda Lee:Right, as a leader to elevate these are the key
Melinda Lee:ingredients, because we were probably trained to do doo doo
Melinda Lee:and to get the results and to probably not have as much time
Melinda Lee:to listen to people and to develop that sense of empathy
Melinda Lee:for others. It's counterintuitive because time is
Melinda Lee:of the essence. And so listening to others might seem like it's
Melinda Lee:just not a good use of our time. But now that we're all of us
Melinda Lee:here are elevating, as leaders, we want to be able to cultivate
Melinda Lee:these skills and we need to cultivate these skills, to have
Melinda Lee:empathy and trust and deep listening. And so I can see how
Melinda Lee:all of those are key ingredients to unleashing our leadership
Melinda Lee:voice and us as leaders. So thank you, Marty, thank you so
Melinda Lee:much for being here. I really had a good time. Each and every
Melinda Lee:one people reach out to Marnie
Unknown:thank you so much thank you
