The Power of Data Storytelling With Devin Fong

Welcome. Dear listeners to the speak in flow, podcast. Where we dive into unique experiences to help you and your team achieve maximum potential connection, clarity and flow. Today I have an amazing, incredibly smart leader in the finance industry, and we're going to dive all we're going to geek out into some finance, planning and analysis,

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Melinda Lee: talk, and how to convey complex, difficult, detailed information in a way with storytelling and flow. And so today we have Devin Fong. He's a Fpa. Which stands for financial planning and analysis, consultant with over 12 years of experience. I'm so glad to have him welcome Devin.

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Devin Fong: Hi, Melinda! Thanks for having me on. This is really fun.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, we're going to have a lot of fun today. This, this is a powerful episode. And I think it's going to be so relevant to all of our analysts, engineers, mathematicians, finance planners out there. And so today, before we dive into that, can you share with us? You're a consultant. Now, Fpa. Consultant like, what makes you so excited about working with your clients?

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Devin Fong: I think for me. I really enjoy taking like data right? And being able to use that data to tell a story and communicate that to the client, or like, you know, whoever your audience may be. And connecting it, you know.

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Devin Fong: to the story that they want to tell, and, you know, kind of either backing up the story with the numbers, or, like, you know, really just like driving home a point that they want to drive home.

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Melinda Lee: Right? I mean, because I know that just data and numbers itself is one perspective. And but a lot of people can use and see that data in various ways. And so by you telling a story is how you elaborate, accentuate and really share where you're getting at with the numbers.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, exactly.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I mean, because I think that sometimes data alone is not enough. Data is important, but it's also not enough. Sometimes.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, a lot of times people can say, like, Well, you know.

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Devin Fong: I don't need you to do the math for me. Because if you're just doing a math homework problem, anybody can do that. So the value really comes from like, what is this

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Devin Fong: thing telling me.

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Melinda Lee: I love that I mean, that speaks to the true leadership, communication, skill that is necessary as a leader, because yes, anybody I mean not crunching numbers is difficult. I can't. That's something for you all to do. That's 1 skill set. But, like you mentioned, like to really take your value up as a leader to be able to communicate it with power, clarity, connection, accuracy. It is another level of leadership. Is that what.

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Devin Fong: Right, right, exactly.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah. And that's what you help your clients do.

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Melinda Lee: And that's what you do for your clients.

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Devin Fong: Yep, pretty much.

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Melinda Lee: Love it. And so I know that you have had so much experience. In this arena, and so can you share with us a time where it was not for you and your team, where it was difficult to communicate the data, the details, and the numbers.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, sure. So you know, in a past life. When I had a team to manage you know, we had like a recurring bi-weekly, call. And you know, I told this team member like, Hey, like you need to own like this call now.

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Devin Fong: And you know, she being like a finance person like, you know, they they geek out over the numbers, or like the numbers, are very

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Devin Fong: you know, critical

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Devin Fong: and so, you know, they put a lot of weight on that right. And so then, all of a sudden, as like the day is approaching, like they're getting nervous and like they're trying to follow. Like, you know, they're trying to structure the the call very like, logically. So like

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Devin Fong: they write up a script. And it's like, you know, you can see, because, like these calls are going on over zoom right? And so you can see like their eyes are like moving along with the script right? This isn't going too well.

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Devin Fong: No, I mean, like, even like, you know, they're trying to like Multitask live at the same time with like they're presenting figures. They're like looking at a script. And there's like, I'm sure there's spreadsheets on one side of the screen, and their notes are on the other side, and when somebody asks a question it's like it breaks them out of like the script right? And then they're like, Oh, my goodness like I don't even know what this person just asked me.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I do. Then it's like freezing, because it's like you don't know where to go, because.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, exactly. And I think, as is typical, probably for a lot of you know, number crunchers, or like finance or accounting type people

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Devin Fong: They're not as like, you know, speaking to an audience doesn't resonate as much with them or like, you know, they get nervous more easily right.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, totally, I mean because you're behind the the spreadsheet. You're behind the numbers all day long.

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Devin Fong: Per minute.

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Melinda Lee: Hours, and then to be asked, well, kudos to you to put to ask her to do that, to help stretch her. But at the same time. Yeah, once you've been asked to do something like this.

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Devin Fong: It's.

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Melinda Lee: So challenging because they're behind the numbers all day long, and then to finally say something became quite nervous like that.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, ex, exactly. And so, like, you know, in in that scenario, it didn't go well, mostly because it was like

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Devin Fong: the the person she was just like really bogged down in details, like I said, and there was like there was no storytelling right? It was just kind of like you're just reciting like a list of numbers.

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Devin Fong: And it's like, well, could have just shot that in email.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, yeah. And what was the audience doing like, do you know how the audience is feeling by chance? Or did you.

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Devin Fong: We didn't take feedback from the audience other than like you can. I mean, you can tell right like they're like, why am I here like

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Devin Fong: but in terms of like the audience, they're all like more senior level people. So I think that probably adds, like some pressure as well.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it was like, embarrassing for her, for the team.

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Devin Fong: I mean, yeah, like, probably embarrassing like in the in the worst case scenario. But like

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Devin Fong: from like a I guess, a business standpoint, it's like.

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Devin Fong: Why did you like, you know.

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Devin Fong: why did we have all these people on this call? Because, like, you know.

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Devin Fong: especially if they're senior people like this call costs like

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Devin Fong: x amount of dollars for X amount of time. Right? So I mean, at least, that's how I think about it.

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Melinda Lee: I love it. I love it. That's speaking to what I do in terms of roi.

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Devin Fong: So you know, there was like negative Roi.

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Devin Fong: So, or technically, you know, there's no Roi's.

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Melinda Lee: Right, either negative or no. Roi. Correct right.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, so so that that would be the the negative impact, I guess. To your question.

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Melinda Lee: and and then so from there what were some? What was a moment? When you did have a something that did turn out well, your team present effectively.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, so like, piggybacking on that same example. So you know, I always do like these post mortems with my team just to see like, Hey, like.

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Devin Fong: you know, basically, what did you expect to happen? And then what really happened? And then how do we like bridge like that gap, you know. So I gave her like constructive feedback. I was like, Hey, you're kind of like super bogged down in the details. And, like, you know, these people don't care about those things like they just need you to tell them a story right like, why this stuff matters and so

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Devin Fong: I also offered her like, Hey, like.

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Devin Fong: you know, for the next run in a couple of weeks. Why don't we do some like mock presentations right like this, me and you one on one on zoom, and like we just go through this stuff, I'll give you feedback. Either live or after you finish your like presentation right

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Devin Fong: and then, like, you know, gave her pointers like, don't use a script just like, keep these things top of mind, and then we went through, like, you know, few iterations. And then the next time she presented it was like

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Devin Fong: night and day.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, congratulations! That's amazing. What would happen when you asked her to let go of the script. And just

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Melinda Lee: did she? Was she okay? With that. Was she nervous about doing that?

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Devin Fong: Yeah, I think at 1st she was like, I'm still gonna have a script. But it was more so like notes, you know, like, yeah. So I think she she wrote down like the the main bullet points that she needed to go through. But you know, you can tell like on the call like her eyes weren't like, you know, reading a lot.

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Melinda Lee: Yes.

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Devin Fong: Hi.

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Melinda Lee: Yes, yes, that really helps a lot with just bullet points.

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Devin Fong: Yeah.

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Melinda Lee: Practice with somebody like really practicing with somebody is a huge help

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Melinda Lee: it from like your your heart. We're not per word, and more.

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Devin Fong: And it also unlocked her, too, right? Because now, when people in the audience are asking her questions, she can speak freely about whatever it is she's talking about rather than like freaking out like, okay, like, this is where I stopped in my script. And then like. And that's that's also super unnatural to think about it. Right? Like.

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Devin Fong: imagine you get asked a question. And then you're like, Okay, I'm continuing. And like you look for that space in your script, and you just like you just start reading again. And it's just like super weird.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah. Yup, yup, yup, yup, yup, Yup, I mean, I remember the days when I used to do that. I understand.

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Melinda Lee: I know I know too well so, but kudos to you for helping her to to get out of that.

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Devin Fong: That habit. And I'm curious. How do you help your team with storytelling? If they're not accustomed to telling stories around data.

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Devin Fong: you kind of have to like

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Devin Fong: build up so like, you know, cause I I've been in their shoes before, too, because I've had the same feedback from my manager when I presented to like

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Devin Fong: co-founders, or whatever, and saying my manager told me like, Hey.

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Devin Fong: you are super bogged down in the details, and, like these guys.

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Devin Fong: either know nothing about it. Don't care about it, because that's your job, like they just need to know, like, why this stuff's important.

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Melinda Lee: Yes.

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Devin Fong: So I kind of like echo the same message that my old manager gave me. Cause it resonated with me, so I I think maybe it would resonate with people in the same field.

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Devin Fong: And I think it does, because they kind of understand, like, okay, like, you're right. Like, you know, I need to be able to step back and like be able to tell a story with this and then, in terms of like helping them, you know. Tell the story just kind of like, guide them along right? You just ask them like, why do you think this is important or like, you know, what does this mean? Like you get really get their like, kinda their mind like cranking on like, oh, why is this important.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, cause I with, I know what that feels like to be so proud of you, probably as finance. Building these models like, very proud of the the models and the numbers and the accuracy. And so you want to showcase that. But then you don't. And when it's like you, said the senior leaders don't care, really.

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Melinda Lee: and you got there all the details of how you got there.

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Devin Fong: So we.

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Melinda Lee: Showcase that because it showcases our talent, but.

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Devin Fong: The same.

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Melinda Lee: I'm like going back to what you're saying. Okay, you've done all this number crunching. You did this modeling. Okay, really, what does that mean like, what does this model mean for the business? And what? Why is it important? And then telling that story clearly? Confidently

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Melinda Lee: right?

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Melinda Lee: Is that the questions that that will help them with the storytelling.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, exactly. I think you're you're onto something there, too. Because I think there's like, kind of a misaligning, because, like as like a junior analyst like, you know.

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Devin Fong: you kind of show your worth like. Hey, look, I modeled this thing

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Devin Fong: like my model. Looks really cool and like these things are automated, and this button does that.

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Melinda Lee: Right, right.

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Devin Fong: But like, you know, when you.

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Devin Fong: when you present that to like the co-founder, or whatever like, they don't care, that your models, formatted like super prettier like these things are automated.

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Melinda Lee: Yep.

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Devin Fong: He doesn't even know like yo man, what are you telling me.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah. And how do you help them with telling it? Confidently, in terms of, especially if they don't. Yeah, yeah, they're really doing all the number crunching how any any tips for sharing.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, I think you have to empower your your. I guess your direct reports or your teammates. Right? You have to let them know. Like.

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Devin Fong: Hey, you're crushing it. And like you really do know all this stuff, and like you can present it to me. And you can, when we do our mocks like you speak to it very well.

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Devin Fong: So you give them that confidence. I think that that does help a lot. And I think you know, just the repetitions like. The more they do it, the the more confident they get. And so like as a leader, like giving up your time to like run these mocks with them. I think that helps a lot.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, I love that which leads me to the one last final question, Devin, that I like to ask all my guests what is the one leadership, golden takeaway that you want the audience to remember.

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Devin Fong: Yeah. So I would say for me, like a golden leadership, takeaway to me is like what makes a really great leader. And just like reflecting back on my time and like my my leaders, that I've had throughout my life, I think a great leader, intentionally designed like a safe environment or space for

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Devin Fong: their people to be their authentic selves. Right? You. They empower their people to take risks to kind of like own their role

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Devin Fong: and they really

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Devin Fong: drive home the point of like, you know, there's like a shared purpose. And so people understand, not just like what they're doing. Because, like, most people know what they're doing. But you know, maybe not. Everyone knows like, why they're doing it. So just like connecting that shared purpose, I think that

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Devin Fong: is really like the golden takeaways for me for leadership.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I do have a question with that. I love that. How you create the safe space for people which is.

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Melinda Lee: helps them to not feel

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Melinda Lee: contracted because I've had clients where they've had managers. They're actually bright. But then, as soon as they're being questioned or micromanaged, then they're starting to make poor decisions that they've been have given the freedom. But then, when we're thinking about finance and the importance of how every detail matters like, how do you know what to give them ownership and what not to

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Melinda Lee: that might be detrimental to the organization like, how do you do that?

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Devin Fong: So I think.

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Devin Fong: at least at the analyst level you can always. You should always be able to tie back your numbers to like some source of truth.

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Devin Fong: So there's always like kind of like a.

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Devin Fong: there's some figure that should basically, your number should make sense.

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Devin Fong: If that makes sense.

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Melinda Lee: Okay.

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Devin Fong: So as long as, like the the numbers or the math itself can like be the ultimate validator like, yeah, you you can. You can own that, because if the numbers say you're wrong, you're wrong, like I don't even need to look like.

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Melinda Lee: You figure out how you got there, but if they're wrong, then then they're wrong.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Or like, yeah, if something like, if one of their assumptions are like, just super off, then you can.

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Melinda Lee: Yes.

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Devin Fong: I'm like, Hey, like

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Devin Fong: this doesn't make sense, or like, you know, you can ask them like, why, why did you make this assumption, or like, why does this make sense to you?

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Devin Fong: Just let them talk it out. But in terms of like, yeah, what? What do you know you can like give them full autonomy over, I would say, mostly is things that kind of like, you know, there is like a source of truth for for me to check back on or for them to check back on, so that they can just like, look at it and see like, Oh, yeah, like, you know.

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Devin Fong: this is what the figures should be. But my models like doing this. And so that's super weird. So that doesn't make sense.

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Melinda Lee: got it.

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Melinda Lee: And so could you tie that into some sort of metric when you can think about the whole team having knowing why they're doing what they're doing, taking ownership like. How would that translate into the business? Roi.

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Devin Fong: I think you kind of just. It frees up like a lot of like you know

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Devin Fong: my time, and then, like they, they feel more empowered to, you know.

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Devin Fong: make their own decisions on the model because it gets really cumbersome. If you know.

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Devin Fong: somebody has to ask you about every assumption. Right? So the Roi is really just like in the lift that it gives like the entire org. In the sense of like. Okay,

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Devin Fong: This person knows that they should probably work with these assumptions, and, like this is their source of truth. And then, you know, they they just.

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Devin Fong: I guess, to put it more sustainedly, if they know like, hey.

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Devin Fong: this, my manager is trusting me to like to own this

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Devin Fong: they'll go out, and they'll do it, and like they'll find the they'll talk to the right people right? And I think that's that's the Roi when you're like you're lifting stuff off of, like other people's plate, and just like taking it on for yourself.

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Melinda Lee: so it could be more efficient.

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Melinda Lee: And and if efficient, because you're taking it off of the senior manager's plate or the manager's plate, and then, as well as me, hopefully as as I develop my confidence. Then I'm more efficient because I don't have to keep on asking other people on how to do that things and taking things off people's plate and everybody everybody feels lifted.

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Melinda Lee: Love it.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, well, thank you so much, Devin. I I trust that our audience took away a lot of golden nuggets today. I

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Melinda Lee: yeah, I certainly did. With regard to the crucial importance of people that are more they do the number crunching. They do the analysis. They do the engineering, all of these people, all of you experts, with such high, valuable information and data. But that is needing to need to be conveyed correctly.

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Devin Fong: Exactly.

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Melinda Lee: Like the power behind that, the power of knowing how to do that, how, when you do that, you're elevating the entire organization. You're helping your leaders. You're helping the organization.

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Devin Fong: Yeah.

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Melinda Lee: So I really appreciate that. And also the power of storytelling with your data.

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Devin Fong: absolutely.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, and then creating a safe space for people to do that.

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Devin Fong: Yep, for sure. I think. Yeah, that's 1 of the most powerful things. When people feel that they can just be themselves like, it's it's very lifting. And also it just unlocks a lot of like people's, you know, potential. Or I guess at the very worst, you don't feel that you're walking on eggshells at work.

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Melinda Lee: Exactly Yup, and then and then that at least actually, that leads to more mistakes.

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Melinda Lee: I think so. So thank you so much, Devin, for your time, for your expertise.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, thanks for having me on.

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Melinda Lee: It was really fun.

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Devin Fong: Yeah, for sure.

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Melinda Lee: And thank you audience, for being here. I trust you are well, and remember, your voice is your power through connection, clarity, and some courage. You can use your voice to speak in flow, and when you do, you are supporting your communities, your families.

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Melinda Lee: and so until next time, I'll see you later if you liked this episode, I trust that you did subscribe like and share it with your friends. Thank you so much. Take care.