Ask An Expert: Perfectly Imperfect with Tanya Gill-Ep.113

Hey welcome to she coaches coaches, I'm your host Candy Motzek. And I'm going to help you find the clarity, confidence and courage to become the coach that you are meant to be. If you're a new coach, or if you've always wanted to be a life coach, then this is the place for you. We're going to talk all about mindset and strategies and how to because step by step only works when you have the clarity, courage and confidence to take action. Let's get started. Hi, friend and welcome to this episode of she coaches coaches. Today we're doing something a little different. Join Tanya Gill, my guest and I, as we have a completely unscripted, organic, free flowing conversation about imposter syndrome. We talk about how common this is. We talk about who experiences impostor syndrome. And we give you some tips and resources and thoughts on how you can manage impostor syndrome for yourself. And your self doubt, enjoy the conversation. Oh, this is going to be so great. It's fun to do one of these really organic kinds of conversations. So often, and especially given the topic that we're going to talk about because I like to be kind of organized. This is not that morning, this is not the morning where I'm organized. So this is going to be great.

Candy, it is not the morning, I'm organized either. Where's the things leaving on vacation tomorrow, and I have done? Nothing to prepare? The list maker and the planner and the organizer. And you know, sometimes you just gotta roll with

it. Yeah, I mean, really, all you need is your toothbrush, and your Visa card. That's it. That's really all you need. Right?

Not for a cabin in the mountains. Oh, fine. Okay, by not for a cabin in the mountains. However, however, you know what? I've never left on a trip without being ready to go. And so I just know that. We'll be ready. And it will be great. Because that's the way it's always been really

fun. Yeah. Time in the mountains is always good.

It is so good. So when we were talking about doing this podcast together, we had thrown around a whole bunch of different ideas. And what we kind of landed on was talking about the experience of imposter syndrome.

Yeah. Yeah. The universal experience,

it is a universal experience. I think that, you know, I had a conversation with a friend this week. And she she was talking about something that she has been trying to organize. And she said, I feel like this is not something that I can do, because I feel like I'm trying to be someone I'm not. Oh, wow. And, and in that experience, I was like, oh, like, let's talk about that. And she and as we started talking about, she just said, I feel like I'm an imposter. Like I'm not the person to be leading this. And I, I realized, sorry, I've got some dogs around, I realized that we all have that experience from time to time where we feel like, even as we're doing whatever the thing is, we're like, Am I good enough for this? Have I got the skills for this? Should I be x y Zed instead? And then we should all over ourselves, right?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. This just reminds me of three quotes that I refer to. I just love this to do with impostor syndrome, because these are surprising. And it just made me realize that I was actually in really good company. So let me just read this one, because I love I love this first one. So it says when I won the Oscar, I thought it was a fluke. I thought everybody would find out and they would take it back. They'd come to my house, knock on the door, and say, excuse me, we meant to give that to someone else. And that one is by Jodie Foster. And I thought, oh my god, if she thinks that what what do you know? Like, what what is the deal? Like when I look at her and I look at her lifelong series of accomplishments I I am shocked, right? So, you know, when you said, Hey, let's talk about imposter syndrome. I'm like, yeah, yeah. So my thoughts on it are this, or that if we experience impostor syndrome, that it's a good thing. It usually is. This is just my experience people who are very competent, super capable people. And it's that next level of growth. And it's, it's kind of like, if you start to feel that way, it, you could get all freaked out and not do the thing. And you know, like, you were speaking about that conversation, say, Well, maybe I'm not the person. Or you could use that as the sign that I'm on the right road, right? Like, this means that I'm doing the right thing. Because who's gonna give you permission? Nobody, nobody's gonna give you permission to do it or not do it. And half the time we're so wrapped up in our own self judgment. We're just in awe of other people. So like, what do you think about that quote from Jodie Foster, I just was just blown away with that,

like holy candy, because I think it really does show us just how it's such a human experience. And that, and and that, also, there's that element of fear and excitement being this, such a similar feeling that when we I think that when we kind of land ourselves into the imposter syndrome, it might be because we're feeling excitement. But that internal dialogue from our I call it our cultural stew, but that internal dialogue starts to come up and tries to show us that potentially. We should, again, I come back to that should doubt ourselves. And that is about the cultural stew. That's not about the moment, right? And so even like, Jodie Foster gets an Oscar thinks that and thinks that, at some point, someone's gonna figure her

out. knock on her door in the middle of the night.

Could you imagine? Excuse me, ma'am? There's been a mistake. Yeah.

Go figure. Right. So what do you think the combination is between imposter syndrome? And I have two different thoughts here just a sec, let me figure out which is the right one.

So for me the connection between the imposter syndrome and perfectionism. Like, do we exacerbate the imposter syndrome? Because we think that we have to go from crap to perfect in one step. Like is that where we get hung up? What do you think?

I love that you brought up perfectionism, because as a recovering perfectionist myself, and I really do say that I am a recovering perfectionist. Absolutely, I think that they kind of are, I think they marry one another very, very well. And I think that people who are perfectionist or believe that there is a version of perfect because that's the other thing, right? Like, let's, let's face it, if we are striving for perfection, it may be achieved for one single moment in time. Because at any other given time, someone else may be doing better, whatever that better is. So it really is about your experience of it. And in that experience of allowing the imperfection, I think that we can release and recognize the value of everything along the way, instead of like you said that big jump to perfection. recognizing all of the steps along the way that has so much value, so much power so much. Meaning, and maybe that's why I'm so passionate about about the beauty of imperfection and being perfectly imperfect. Is is because that because we lose the meaning along the way, when we get so hung up on whatever the result is instead of the growth that comes a long way.

Yeah, and so when you say that it makes me think of meaning and fulfillment as opposed to that outer shiny package. Right. And there's so much more life in, you know, in sort of, not just joy of life, but like the actual means living side of your life when you find meaning and satisfaction. So obviously, I think about imposter syndrome.

Have you experienced impostor syndrome lately,

my friend, lately? Oh my god every time every day. That's the one thing, right? I just realized that there's times like, I love so first off, I love this quote. I hear it from Brad Yates. He's an OG in the EFT world. And he says that any time we don't have what we want, is because of resistance, our own internal resistance. And then he pairs that with this idea that self sabotage is just misguided self love. And so I realize that there's times that I feel so busy, that I'm not ready to take the next step, because I'm getting myself in order, organize strategically, however, I might term it. But really what it is, is it's just that fear, you know, impostor syndrome, fear of showing up as that next place, right? And so to find this place where we distract ourselves, and we just stay busy in the world, and and, I mean, impostor syndrome is really just that fancy word for fear. Right? No wonder what would happen. If we just allowed it to be fear, instead of trying to make it some, you know, like, make it something? What if we just called it what it was? Do you think that there's anything to what other than fear?

I don't know that there is anything other than fear when you really peel it away? There's little more than that experience of Yeah. being grounded in fear. And we live in the fear of the stories of our past. Like, you know, it really is that, oh, this might happen. Right? This might happen in the future, because someone said something to me a billion years ago. Right. And I honestly, I have that I have that impostor syndrome experience, even just doing video. My podcasts are not on on YouTube. And I've been asked several times to put them on YouTube. Do you put yours on YouTube? No. I have them on YouTube. But there's just the audio part of it.

Yeah, so there's something here. There's so agreed about the fear. But with impostor syndrome, specifically, it's like fear with judgment attached to

it and you're of external judgment. Right? Because when we feel like we're an imposter, we, it is that the experience inside of feeling that fear and that excitement, and I do believe that the imposter comes from the excitement because we're doing something that feels like a stretch. Yeah, right. And that stretch is the juicy part of living. Like, oh my god, we, when we don't stretch, we live in a boring little box. Who wants

but so it's a flavor of fear. It's a specific flavor,

right? It is a flavor.

You got something? What else is you had something else?

Yeah, I wanted to say pistachio.

No, okay. I was gonna tell you a story. Tell me a story. Okay. And it's and because we're on video, you're gonna see it's about this yellow. I just remembered it because of yellow. So it's not specifically fear imposter syndrome, because it was just playing fear. No, no fancy fear attached to it. years ago, maybe 1520 years ago, I took up dance as an adult. And one of the things that I did was like, this is a real passion for me. It's only since COVID that I haven't been going to dance class. And when I talk about dance, I'm talking about ballet, and tap and hip hop. And, you know, these forms of dance that you see mostly young people doing. And I love ballet, like, just love it. And my dance instructor. She was like she was willing to take a chance on me. You know, here's this middle aged lady. I'm very short. And she said, come to the class with the teenagers. And so I trained with the teenagers for years and years. And I even got to the point where I was on point. And it's not that I loved being on point, but I loved the achievement. So here's the story. So if you're listening to the audio, my cup that I'm holding up right now is a bright sunshiny yellow. Now picture in your mind, a 45 year old woman on point on the stage, and a bright yellow bodysuit, like there's fear right there. With the lights and everything, right?

With a bunch of teenagers, yeah,

totally. Well, they were all used to me by then, right? The teenagers were like, I was just like, they accepted that I was there. They're kind of they're weird apps with less.

Oh, my God, that is amazing,

right. But that's like, there wasn't any impostor syndrome because I didn't expect anybody to think anything good of me for that. I was just doing it because I wanted to write. And so there's the difference is it was that expectation, right? That would have made it now if I had expected somebody to go, Oh, you're supposed to be a vision of loveliness in that bright yellow outfit. Maybe I would have experienced the imposter side of it. But I didn't

know expectations, no judgment. And and you didn't accept that. Maybe the other thing is, with impostor syndrome, is it that we are expecting judgment to come with it?

And harsh judgment and harsh judgment?

Yeah. Right. We're not expecting someone to tell us how amazing we are. Right? Jodie Foster wasn't expecting somebody to show up on the door and be like, Hey, we gave it to the wrong person. You're amazing. Right? He was expecting them to be like, you were a mistake.

Yeah. Oh, ooh, there's something. Oh. Right. So yeah, that it was a mistake, or that you are a mistake.

And maybe that part of that impostor syndrome comes back to that worthiness, right? Yeah. It's like, if someone finds out that well, a perfect example as as a life coach, and as a social worker who works with clients. I have never professed that I have my shit together. Yeah, that's, that's not what this is about. Right? Right. And yet, I have these moments where I think to myself, if I don't have my shit together, how can I help other people? Right. And so that's my Dasia. My internal dialogue, my limiting beliefs. I've named her Dasia. Her name is deja, here we go again, poo, as in, we've heard before. And Dasia will be the one who comes in and says you probably don't know and you don't have your shit together. You were a puddle crying last night? How can you help people? Right, that imposter syndrome is that it for me in that moment is the fear that someone else will judge my experience and my skills and my abilities based on my own life?

Yeah, and they will judge you. Right? Like, like, actually, I'm serious, right? But this is the thing is we get scared because people are going to judge us and they do every single day. But what we forget, is that the vast majority of the time, it looks like this. Oh my god, I love her voice. Or I She sounds like somebody that I could talk to, or she looks so friendly. Those are all judgments. We don't think about those judgments ever, ever.

Ever. And when and what happens when someone does give you a compliment? Do we accept that?

Are we learning to I'm learning very slowly. Yeah, just that gracious. Thank you.

Yes. Just a gracious, thank you. I know for me, I was the queen of deflection, right, right down to someone would hug me and tell me I smelled good. And I'd be like I showered. Right? And instead of just being like, Oh, thank you, right?

Yeah. All right. So what are we so what have we got? We know that at its heart imposter syndrome is fear. And it's fear with a specific flavor to it. It's fear of the flavor of harsh judgment. And also, this sort of fear of being expelled. You know, like, so in that Jodie Foster quote, they're going to come and take that Oscar away. But when you hear people, like, I've got another one, Sheryl Sandberg quote, just because, you know, we talk about the people that I think are fairly stellar in their career. And, you know, Sheryl Sandberg said, There are still days when I wake up feeling like a fraud. I'm not sure I should be where I am. And so there's that feeling that somebody is going to get rid of us, somebody's going to kick us out. And that ties back to worthiness and belonging, and all of those things, we'd rather be safe and part of the crowd. Then wearing a yellow to two bright lights.

And yes, you're here to tell the story and laugh about it. That's the other thing like, How many times do we let that fear of judgment and that, that belief that we are an imposter and don't deserve to be in the role that we are or in the relationship that we are? Or in the event experience that we are? How many times do we let ourselves become immobilized by that, instead of taking the shot? And you know, like, incredible, you love dancing? You wanted to learn to dance as an adult? You went for it? You got onpoint Hello, sister, a yellow two, two, I can guarantee that people in that audience we're in awe. Or

who knows? Right? Like, who knows, we don't know what somebody's reaction is going to be. I wanted to ask you, you know, like we have shared experience in that we both experience impostor syndrome. We're both coaches, we both, you know, do these creative things that stretches who we are. Do you think that there is? I came in with the assumption that everybody experiences impostor syndrome, and I'm not 100% Sure. Do you have experience of people who you think should be a little bit more? In learning mode, who think too highly of themselves? Do you experience that?

That's a great question. Having dated I will say many, many men between each of my husbands, I'm going to say yes, I'm going to say that there is a difference between confidence and ego. And I think that confidence is beautiful and healthy and important. And the difference in my experience is that ego is driven from a place of selfishness. And so when I see people who are so for example, like I dated a guy, he just thought he was everything. Like he just thought he was everything. And in that he really was an imposter in some of his pursuits. And the result of that was that he actually put other people in danger. Oh, in actual physical danger by taking them on physical pursuits that he wasn't even trained for. Wow. So that it that's a perfect example, though, of someone who's got impostor syndrome who is an impostor, but is immune to it. Yeah. And like, and in this case, this person was a climber. So we're talking something very rare. Yeah. So you You know, and and I think that we do see people in our lives who are taking bigger risks and, and not and actually are oblivious to the fact that they are not actually as skilled or have the abilities or even the safety that they need sometimes. So in those cases, it's right. Yeah.

And I mean, in in the corporate world, I've seen a lot. And it's not usually the woman. It's the men. And it's not men as a whole. I mean, I know lots of men who I also talked to, and they suffer from imposter syndrome. But it maybe it's an approach to life, you know, maybe they've learned to be a certain way. I don't know exactly what that way is. But, I mean, I've worked with people that I can have, I have absolutely no idea how they got to that level, on the corporate ladder.

And they're

good, you know, good people, but they just don't have the skill that they needed. But they've got the title. And then their executive assistants are actually doing the job, right. And so that just confuses me, like, that's all I can say is like, how do you take somebody who is a capable person who suffers from imposter syndrome? And you know, and we've got some ideas about why that might be. And then you put them side by side with somebody who, you know, the difference is, thinks they're capable or thinks they're adept. And in fact, they're not. What can we learn from those people? What could we learn not to become somebody who thinks who is an imposter? But what could we learn to improve to make our life easier so that our stretches are even bigger? Or more fun? Or, you know, who knows? Right? Like, who knows what would be possible?

I, you know, I think you touched on something. I think there are two pieces. The first is that people who maybe appear to experience impostor syndrome less, probably have people around them who are very supportive. Not that I'm saying that Jodie Foster didn't have supportive people around her. Great, great. Yeah, but but when you talk about, for example, the an executive in court, the corporate world, there are those people like the assistant, the executive assistant, we all know, like, assistants are worth their weight in gold. And they are kind of the most important people. And so in that case, do you think it's because they have those people around them that help facilitate all of these things? Or is it actually a personality trait where they've just been raised? Not to question themselves? And we could get into a whole patriarchal talk about that. Right?

Yeah. And I'm kind of trying to avoid that part of it. Because, I mean, that's part of the inherent bias of our society. And so we know that it's there. But you know, there are there are lots of people that do experience impostor syndrome. And so why, you know, so why, why them? And why not the other people? Right? And I and so what you said about this, I like this idea about, perhaps some people who think more highly of their capability and don't experience imposter syndrome have more of an ecosystem around them an ecosystem of support. And like you said, it's not that the other people don't have support.

But they have more.

Why do they feel differently? Like why do they think differently about themselves?

Confidence assurance directions. I mean, I do believe that we experience impostor syndrome less and less, the more comfortable and confident and the more we build that trust with ourselves. Yeah,

and so that's interesting. So If we trust ourselves, if we have integrity with ourselves, and have this approach where, you know when when things don't go the way we want it to when we're not as good at something as we thought, we don't get all uptight about it, we just go, Well, I'm human, and, you know, still appreciate and care and accept ourselves. There's that. And then with confidence, to get confidence as you take action. You exercise courage, which is that thing that happens in a second, right? And then you keep going, and you start to see the result of taking that action. And then that, for me, that's what builds my confidence is think of something go freak me out, okay, I can do this, I can do this snap, go that moment of courage, and do it and do it and do it and then gain that confidence. And at the same time, don't, you know, verbally abuse yourself? If it didn't go? Well? Like if you fall down? You can say, oh, my gosh, that's terrible. Don't ever do that again? Or what can we learn? What can we do next time? That's a little bit different. What do you think? How would that if we could change our approach? How would that change imposter syndrome? It feels like a science experiment waiting to happen.

It does. Is it is it though, that the imposter syndrome is just the story we tell ourselves, when we tune in to that feeling of fear and or excitement that we're stepping to slightly out of our comfort zone, or incredibly out of our comfort zone. And taking the chance. Yeah.

And the and what you said that I didn't really sounded like right on point is the story we tell ourselves. Yeah. Right. Like we could tell ourselves that we can keep telling ourselves. I'm a fake. I'm an imposter. I feel like an impostor. I feel like an impostor. Or we could say this is part of the learning cycle of this growth path.

And I feel like an impostor, and I'm here and I'm doing it, and it might not be perfect. And that's okay.

Yeah. And, you know, there's that there's that word. And that's the, I think that's the key for what you're saying is that and right. So, is it just a habit? Is it just a habit?

I do. You know, what, I think that it probably is a habit. I do think that part of it is, is that we are taught from a young age that there's some danger in being confident. Right, there are people out there, obviously, who are outside of their range, like mountain climber. Yep. Right. And then I think there are others of us who have an opportunity to step bravely into things that feel uncomfortable and feel like an imposter. But if we show up, and we actually can say, Oh, I feel like an impostor. But I'm here. So obviously, I'm not. Right. Yeah. And, and the judgment, like I think the other piece of this is that the imposter syndrome comes from a fear of judgment from the outside. And we have to recognize that we cannot control what other people's thoughts are. But often, when they come from a place of negative judgment. We all know it's actually the stories about themselves that they're telling themselves. Yeah. So

just you know, swing kind of we've kind of been around the circle here. Yeah. Imposter syndrome, common for many people. based in fear, fear, especially with that place of expectation of harsh judgment. And if we can just accept that it's going to be there and that it's a mark or that we're on the right path. And that it doesn't mean stop. It means learn. And then use those skills, those confidence skills that you were talking about. And keep going. So what if impostor syndrome was just the sign to keep going?

Obviously, it is. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. So when we experience impostor syndrome, it's the sign to keep going see what we can learn in that moment. And recognize that while we may experience imposter syndrome syndrome in that moment, it's that learning experience, possibly, so we don't experience that impostor syndrome next time, because that's the other thing. Like, I don't know how many Oscars Jodie Foster has has earned in her life. But I know it's more than one. Right? So the question becomes, did she feel like an imposter after she receives the third one?

Maybe, maybe, and maybe, maybe she didn't feel after the third one. But maybe she did feel about the next thing. Like, you know, it's just like the voice of your inner critic and never goes away, you just turn the volume down on it, and you learn to manage it. And and in your case, you give it a wonderful character, so that you can have that external relationship with that inner critic. But maybe after the third Oscar, I don't know how many she's had either. But maybe it's just like, okay, and now I don't have to be freaked out about that. But I'll find something else to be freaked out about. Right? So that's okay. Like, if we know that that's part of the ride. And we just use when it shows up, it's the reminder to care for yourself, have your own back. Be keep going. You said as use it as a, you know, keep going, don't stop. And then it'll show up for the next time and the next time like and who knows, right?

And just doing the check in with yourself like, like, you know, is this based on the stories that someone else has told me, or is this the truth right now? Right. And and, you know, you're the inner critic, she doesn't go away. I would love to say that there's a magic wand to get rid of her. But the truth is, she actually is there to try and keep you safe. Yeah. But she's using old information. And so the best thing you can do is to just acknowledge it compassionately, and say, Wow, maybe I'm scared. Maybe I'm excited. But what would I be missing out on if I didn't take this next step? Yeah. Yeah. Right, Jodie Foster started out as an actress, and now she's a producer. If she if she didn't have I'm sure she felt like an imposter going into producing, I'm guessing. But we've all experienced that when we go into a new job or a new relationship. Like, I think that it is natural to have that moment of, do I know enough? Do I have enough to be able to do this?

And can I figure it out?

And can I figure it out? Yeah. Yeah. and figure it out.

Yeah. And so maybe, let's just summarize. Where did where do we think that we're at, like, if somebody's listening to this episode. What do you think? What do you think is their sort of their takeaway?

We all experience imposter syndrome, including famous people like Jodie Foster, and the guy who picks up your garbage. Right, right. Like everybody, I think, has an experience of feeling like an imposter at some point in their lives. But if we stop when we feel that what gifts would we miss out on for ourselves and for others? Right, like, when I started doing a podcast, I was terrified. I thought they all had to be perfect. And let's face it, we went into this candy without a plan because we really have a conversation. And you know what? It's been lovely. And it's been beautiful. And I do think that it can inspire people to think about, oh, if I experienced this, where's it coming from? Is it fear is it excitement And if it's interlaced with judgment

and how does any of that serve me?

How does that serve? Yeah,

yeah. So I agree with you, you know, all the things that you've said. And so, you know, just I guess my final thoughts on it. Agreed. It's, I think it's a universal experience. I think that it's a sign that says, Oh, you're going down a slightly new road. And the waste, there's the waste through you, you move through imposter syndrome. You can never avoid it. But you just have to keep going. Care for yourself. Keep your coaching questions in mind. Right. Stay curious. There you go. That's

the most important piece. Yeah. Where the yellow to to? Some fun. Yeah. That's it. Because that is the juice. Yeah, for sure. Oh, my God, we nailed it. We totally know how to get through imposter syndrome where?

Oh, excuse me while I go and experienced impostor syndrome on my next journey.

Exactly. You know what? I know that your listeners and my listeners have likely found this a very interesting conversation. Hopefully, it's very relatable. Thank you so much for this awesome conversation.

Thank you for joining me on she coaches, coaches, and I know that the listeners who listen to my podcast, you're going to go I have to listen to that woman. So tell us how they can find out more about you.

I was going to actually say my friends need to check you out on she coaches coaches, because there's so much good stuff, even if you are personally not a coach. Wow, I love your podcast so much. It's one of my favorite walking podcasts. So thank you, and I am on all of the platforms as lighten up and unstuff your what? And I can also be followed on socials perfectly imperfect.