Why Intentional Visibility is Key to Business Growth with Donna Cravotta | RR285

Donna, Hello everyone, and welcome to the

episode this week of relationships rule. Almost

forgot what it was anyway. Nice to be here and nice to have

another special guest with me. Donna. Cravada is my guest

today, and Donna is all about visibility, strategy and

storytelling, those are her special words. And she's been a

marketer, I think I would say, for many years, and I was in a

group, or what was it, a summit of some sort, that we did

together, and that's how we met. And I was fascinated by what I

saw, and wanted to talk more with Donna, and think that she

has lots of value to bring to the audience. So welcome to the

show, Donna.

Thank you. It's good to be here.

You're very welcome. So I'm going to dig in

a little bit with your be visible Club, which is a

mastermind community, the real 50 over 50, the wisdom

revolution that inspired me, and I love to hear about more about

that so but first I want to ask you, I know that you did a

revamp, like you took some time off from your busy marketing

career and step back to see where you needed to be. And I

think it was about two years correct that, yeah, yeah. So can

you share a little bit about, you know, the process, or the

aha moments that came to you about that

I had reached a point where I had been working

with some clients that were very demanding, and it all kind of

collided with COVID, and my son graduating during COVID and

going to college during COVID and dealing with some health

issues. And it was just like there was this life work instead

of balance. It was a bit of a collision. And I was a lot of

stuff. That's a lot of stuff, and, and there was a point where

I was kind of off boarding these two clients, and three were

getting ready to come back on board. And I was just having

this day where, like, I just didn't want to do anything. And

I, you know, it wasn't. Everything was working. The

technical gods were all pleased and be so it was me. It wasn't

anything but me. That was just like, I don't want to do this,

and I don't want to do this, and I don't want to do this, and I

don't want to do this. And I said, Okay, time to step away

and, like, figure out what's going on here. And I realized

that I had built myself into an agency I didn't want and I

didn't want to be responsible. For all of those people. I'm a

single parent. My son was just like, settled after, you know, a

pretty rough transition of graduation and,

well, COVID didn't help any of us. No. I

mean, that's why it was rough, yeah, yeah. You

know, it's like, we'd worked all these years to kind of like, get

him to this point, and it's like, let's throw a monkey

wrench in this whole thing. And, you know, I just I, I was just

on autopilot, and I didn't realize what I was doing was not

what I wanted. And when I really thought about it, it was like,

oh, yeah, you don't want any of this. You don't want to be

responsible for all these people on a team, and right for clients

that are going to need 12 different things that you don't

like doing and and even if you try to outsource that, you know,

there's still the responsibility of managing that. And, you know,

it just didn't feel like it fit anymore. It felt like I was

putting somebody else's clothes on. And I said, Okay, well, you

just need to stop, because if you rush into something else,

it's not going to be the right thing. You need to just take a

little break, a break and a breather and pause and figure

out what do you want before you start building something

because, you know, I my, natural nature is to just start

building. Yes, I needed to kind of stop and have a plan first.

And I did, and I slowly worked my way back into what I wanted.

And I took myself through a process that I bring clients

through, that I used to call a content audit, but it's really

so much more than that, because I started to look at everything

that I've accomplished over 40 years of working. Mm hmm. And

you know, when I had, I worked in law firms for 25 years before

I started my own business in 2006 so there's, there's a lot

in all of this. Of course, I started to kind of go through it

and figure out, like, what do I want to do? What do I not want

to do? What is needed, what's relevant, what really helps

people. Because I don't want to just offer services that only

please me. They have to be needed and useful and wanted.

And I just went through this whole process over several

months, and I started eliminating things, and I

started to feel. Figure out what, you know what, what's

going to come with me, and you know what are, what, what else

happens? Like, what could be recycled, what could be

upcycled, what could be sold, what could be given away. And I

started creating these buckets, and I was like, Oh, this isn't a

content audit. I'm like, Marie Kondo ing, my business, yes. And

I actually watched a show called The the fine I think it's the

fine art of the Swedish death cleanse. And that's what they

do, is they go into people's homes while they're still alive,

their stuff. Oh, what a horrible name, though,

but it's, it's something that they do in

Sweden. It's like a ritual that they do. Yes, okay, there's a

book with the same thing, and they did a TV show, and there

was one episode that really stuck with me and the woman that

they went into her home, she was a retired Las Vegas showgirl,

and she had like a borderline hoarded home with, yes, all

kinds of freaky things in it. But they found these blankets

that her grandmother had crocheted for her when she was a

little girl, and they were tattered and stained and torn

and total disarray. And had she passed away, or somebody was

helping her, like just empty out this house, they would have been

in the dumpster. Right? They did was what they did was they took

these blankets and they restored them, and they mended them and

they fixed them. Oh, wow. They packaged them beautifully and

wrote these notes and they gave them to her granddaughters, who

she was estranged from. And this was like, the reconnection to

this relationship with her granddaughters. And I was like,

and this is what I do. Yes, your stories connect to their

stories, the things that they accomplished, the things that

were meaningful. And the irony of that is, like a visual that I

had for my work for so many years was like those little

squares that you crochet and then you make a granny squares.

Yeah. Granny Squares, yeah. And, like, I always viewed my work

as, like, the different elements of it as these little granny

squares. And individually, they don't really mean that much, but

when you put them together, it creates something of substance.

And, you know, just tying all of that together made me realize,

like, what I'm doing is so much more. And then, you know, I have

this whole real 50 over 50 community that was kind of

growing at the same time. And I realized that I'm helping women

that are of a certain age, realizing that what got them to

where they are is important and relevant. Because as we start to

reinvent in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s. You know, start to think,

like, you know, our confidence takes a hit and yeah. Like, who

did everything I do before this point matter? Like, did I just

waste my time?

Especially because things have changed so

quickly, so much we feel we do get Yeah, it's, oh, my god,

doesn't that even count? Yes, I know Yes. I've experienced

that for sure. You really Yeah, you get the

whole, you know, the whole assortment of an imposter

syndrome. Yes, again,

yes. So, okay, so let's just break these two apart

for a second. And first of all, I want you to tell me, and you

started to tell me, in a way, about your concept of being

intentionally visible and why it's important for business

owners to embrace this mindset. Can you elaborate on that? I

wonder. You know, what is that that? Does it start with you?

Because I know. Okay, I'm just going to preface by saying that

I know that when I work with somebody for the first time to

help them with LinkedIn and to build their their profile. It's

just one little piece right of what you do, but I like to get

into their head first and find out more about them that I can

bring something out that means something to them. And I'm, I'm

hoping and thinking that that's what you're talking about, which

helps them. Okay, yeah, so please elaborate with

marketing. Most people really don't understand

the way it works. They listen to the loudest person, and that's

where they that's where they get guidance from, that's where they

buy services from. But it's not always the best way to go. Okay?

Usually one business model. All businesses are different, right?

So when you listen first, listen to yourself, listen to your

content, listen to those around you, listen to the people you

admire, listen to the people that you want to connect with,

that you want to help, that you want to work with. Everything

starts to become more intentional, and you're not just

randomly following the loudest voice, okay, randomly follow

that loudest voice. There's a lot of noise all around it, so

you're getting lost in all of that noise. But when you start

to become more intentional about how you want to show up, who you

want to be there. For the words you choose to use, the business

that you want to build. It changes everything, because

you're actually deciding where you want to be. You're not just

blindly following something. And the way that I feel the online

world works is is there's an undercurrent. And when you can

glide into that undercurrent, instead of chasing that noise,

you actually do connect with the people you want to connect with.

Okay, can

you elaborate on that a

little bit? Because the undercurrent is it's

quiet, and there's it's peaceful, and it's not frenetic,

and it's much smaller, it feels right, then it feels right, it's

aligned, it's connection, and you just kind of naturally go.

But people fight that, and they're going for the noise,

they're going for the shiny thing. I need to do what's next?

I need to build something. I need to going, I can't stop.

So do you think, though, some of that comes from

the fact that they haven't and because they're confused and

playing the squirrel game that they don't sit down to to really

think about who they want to work with, who their target

audiences are, that aligns with their thinking, with the work

that they want to do, because that maybe clouds everything

from the very beginning. Yeah,

that's part of it. And another piece of it is

that they're looking at demographics. They're just

looking at age, gender, location, race, you know, family

structure, they're not looking at what people care about.

They're not looking at values. And that's the thing that goes

into the undercurrent. When you care about the same things, you

connect.

Well, I'm thinking that they're just

thinking about money,

yeah, and and that's just it. Because if you

think about, like, you go into Facebook ads, if you look at the

back, you know, the back end of Facebook ads, what's it doing?

Demographics, it's all connected to money, then that, but, but

it's not looking at what people care about. It's not looking

about what, what they feel. It's not looking, you know, it's not

looking at their why? Like, why am I doing this? That you do

this? Something is driving you to do this. I mean, we quit our

jobs, right?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So in your be visible

club, you work with the people that, and they're, are they all

women? Yeah,

I had, I had one man in there last year, and he

didn't come back.

It was too feminine energy there for him.

No,

he was actually good with that. You know what he

said? He said that his business grew so much they didn't have

time to be there anymore. And I was, like,

interesting, okay, so, but that's your

general that's who you Yeah.

And it just kind of, it just kind of all happened

that way. And you know when I you know when I do work with

clients, we start with a detailed questionnaire, and a

big part of that is having them think through all of those

things, because until you do that, you're never going to

really connect with the right people, because you have to kind

of understand them.

Well, it's funny, because I resist doing those

kinds of things too, like really sitting down and getting to the

heart of you know, who is my target audience, and so on and

so forth. I hate doing that stuff. I don't know why. I think

partly I go by my gut, and I'm pretty intuitive when it comes

to who I resonate with or who resonates with me and and

whether, because I'm a relationship person, that's what

I do. And I I find it pretty easy to if I can't draw them out

then, then they're not my person, because they're, you

know, like it's usually, I make people feel more comfortable

about and able to talk quickly to me, you know, talking to open

up quickly to me. And I always tell this, this story about my

husband going golfing with, yes, he does, and went with his

friend, and they hooked up with this couple from Australia. And

he said they were the nicest couple. He said, We, you know,

we found they live in such and such a place, and we had a great

golf match. And I said, Oh, where in Australia do they live?

How many kids do they have? What do they why were they over here?

He says, Janice, we were just playing golf. I have no idea.

I'm like, I could have had all that out of them in five

minutes, right? Superficial, that answer that he gave me, but

most people don't think that way. I know

it's crazy. They don't, and they have to be led to think that

way. And they don't want to do these forms, and when they do,

they realize. Uh, like they, it's ones on them. Like, ah,

that's why this didn't work, and that's why that work. And no

wonder,

yeah, for sure. Yeah, totally. Um, so you, how

many people do you have in your mastermind, your your

intentionally visible, be visible, community attitude?

It's, small right now, because it's, it's

relatively new, and I've kind of been, it's been a work in

progress. So there's only about 20 people in there.

That's good. That's manageable, yeah, but I

don't, you know. I

don't want to grow it very big, right? I want

to keep it small, and I want people to be in there that never

want to leave. Well, and do they work their friends Well,

that's right, do they bring their questions for

masterminding each week or each month or how often? Do you mean?

We

have, we have two calls a week a month, and we

have, it's all built into a membership site, so there's lots

of opportunity and places to ask questions and and learn more.

That's great. And there's lots of, you know, there's a whole

course in there, and there's resources and tools, and we'll

be bringing in guest experts at some point. But there's just so

much to go through right now that I don't want to, I don't

want to complicate it more. But, you know, it's, it's, it's a

full library of, you know, years and years and years of my work.

That's

great. And then you you have this new, this

other thing, the real 50 over 50, the wisdom revolution. And

that, of course, appealed to me because I think I love the name

the wisdom revolution, because that's, that's what it is we, we

don't want to be shoved under the rug. We have a lot of wisdom

to impart, and women over 50, and I think that's wonderful.

Tell me a little bit more about that, because I just hooked up

with you on that, and I'm excited about it.

Yeah, you're on the web page. And I was not

planning this. I was in the middle of rebuilding a business,

and that, you know, takes its own level of work. And, you

know, I was figuring out any odd. And I was, you know, still

figuring out my son in college, and, yeah, all of these things

going on at the same time. And I was listening to Mika Brzezinski

from MSNBC talk about the Forbes 30 over 50 Conference, which

she's involved in, and they were all big names, people that don't

really need more visibility, right, right? I'm laying in bed

listening to this, and I'm thinking, start to think about

all the women that I know over 50 that could really use more

visibility. And I'm like, why is orbs featuring any of these

women? Even in like the 50 over 50, there's like three or four

different franchises associated. And, you know, to go attend one

of these events, it's a $10,000 ticket, yeah. And if you want

to, you know, apply to be part of the Forbes 50 over 50, and

you're a small business owner or a founder, you need to have 10

million in revenue as a minimum. So I'm just laying there, and

the whole thing is just rubbing me the wrong way. And I start to

make a list in my head of all the women that I know over the

age of 50 that are doing good work. So I grabbed a pen and

paper because I'm starting to fall out, and it took me 15

minutes to make a list, yeah, and I started to do keyword

research, and everything was about hair and makeup and your

body's falling apart and life's going to be awful, and might as

well give up now. And then, I bought the domain, the real 50

over 50 for $1 I realized that I should have had to pay more

money or negotiate for that, yeah. And then it was like, it

was all kind of coming layer by layer. And I was like, Okay, so

like the people that make decisions about our laws, about

finances, about insurance, about health care, about retirement,

they're all using the same tools I'm using, and this is what

they're getting, hair and makeup. Yeah, and I'm thinking

about all these women that I know, and we were going to sit

down and have a conversation, like, hair and makeup might come

up, but it's not going to be the first thing, right? Yeah. And I

just started to reach out to my friends, and I was like, because

everyone was a friend, a colleague, a client, and I was

like, Well, if I just started interviewing you. Would you want

to be interviewed? And within two weeks, I had 40 interviews

booked, wow. And tomorrow is going to be our it's either the

88th or the 90th interview. And this month will be our 12th

panel, and we've got interviews booked all the way. I think the

next one is may 2025,

I know. I think I'm in April, yeah, so that's,

that's awesome. It's

been a thing, and it's very, it's very casual

and very loose, but the connections that are happening

are incredible.

Yeah, that's very cool. And I have to block off

some time to make those Connect. Make some time for that, because

that's what you have to do, right? Right? But you, you feel

like, when you're part of something, even though it's

like, I'm brand new to it, that it's going to be a warm

conversation, because you're connected through you. And so

that's really special. And

everybody, everybody is either somebody I

personally know or somebody they introduced me to, yeah,

that's really cool. So I'm going to switch

topics for a second, because this one interests me a lot, and

I know that you've been studying AI and chat GPT and all of that,

and how do you integrate that into your strategies for

visibility and storytelling? How do you make that work in

practice?

So many ways. Oh, really.

Okay, yeah, so

many ways. And again, the word intentional is

going to come up, because I don't look for like most people

view AI tools as being a productivity tool, and you'll

save time. Okay? I view them, I mean, you're going to save time.

It's Oh for sure, you know. But that's not my that's not my

reason for using them. My reason for using them is you now have

access to a level of information you literally cannot hold in

your brain, for sure. So how can you partner with this

information? So now you can take up level everything that you do

and make it better while you're saving time and yes, being wiser

with the way that you work, I get a visual of like being able

to take the New York City Public Library on Fifth Avenue and 42nd

street and put it on like a backpack, and I have this with

me at all times I can go find out all of this information and

what I Do a big part of what we do in the be visible community

that I'm in is we learn how to ask these tools the right

questions, right that's what I'm learning right

now too. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

And sometimes the questions could be super

simple, it could be a paragraph a sentence, and sometimes

they're complex and they're layered and and you have to ask

in stages. But what I find is one of the true gifts of working

with these tools is it makes you stop and think about what you

really want before you ask anything, because now you have

to ask for it.

Do you use chat, GBT, or do you have another

favorite? Um,

it changes because the tools change so

frequently. Uh, huh. My most recent favorite tool is

perplexity.

Oh, that just got mentioned to me the other day.

Yeah,

that's somebody favorite tool. Um,

and how is it different? It's

really good for research, and it gives you the,

it gives you the resources of where it pulls everything from,

and then bottom of every chat, it gives you a list of related

questions. So it makes you think a little more. You know, I like

go back and forth with them. Yes, I always, I always ask,

like, what else do you need? Am I missing anything? What can I

provide to you to make you know, to make you make this task

easier for you? So

I was learnt talking and just testing.

Somebody showed me how to set up a 90 day content calendar

through chat, GPT, and what to ask it, and so on and so forth.

And then somebody else in this group that I was online with

said, Now, once you've got the topics, it was for twice a week

for 90 days, because you can pre program or you can schedule

LinkedIn now to with your posts for up to that time. And then

this person said, then go to perplexity. And for each of the

topics. Ask it for three versions of a post and and I

said, Why would I need to go there? Can't I use it chat GPT?

He just said that it was more detailed. Yeah,

they work differently. Yeah, okay. I'll

have to test it out. And Claude is another one. Claude is really

good for writing. I've heard that

one too, but I haven't, I

don't, I don't use chat. GPT much anymore.

Well, I like

because I can, I've learned how to use it. And

it's, you know, I just did a an outline with somebody that I

was, I'm going to do a joint webinar with, and got it to pull

up a format that I was asking it about and stuff. And so it gave

us a guideline to get started, because we don't know each other

that well, and so I'm trying to build that relationship at the

same time. So yeah, it's kind of interesting. It

is interesting. One of the things that I did not

too long ago for a client was I explained what the client does,

and then I said, Where is there overlap with Brene Brown's work

from her book, The Atlas of the heart, okay? And it gave me all

of like these areas where I can incorporate some of the work

that she shares publicly and online. You know, she's got a

gold hub on her website. Brene Brown does about i. About her

work around the atlas of the heart, and it just brought this

whole new level of it just it was just made everything so much

richer, because it brought in the whole emotional aspect of

the work that my client was doing and and to just see how it

dovetailed so nicely. Really showed the thought and the

effort that my client put into her work that it was able to

match up like with Brene Brown's work. That's

cool. So when you do something like that with a

client, do you do it with the client, or do you do it in the

back end?

It depends. Like, you know, sometimes, like

when we're working and be visible, we're kind of just

doing things together, ad hoc, but like, when I'm working with

a client and I'm putting together a strategy for them, I

lean into AI, and I kind of, you know, I did that myself, because

I'm like, Okay, I was getting curious with all the different

resources and tools that I use. But what I do is, when I find

something like that, I share it with the client. And that's one

of the things I like about perplexity too, is you can share

a link to the chat and share it with a client, and then they can

keep working on it with what you started.

Yeah, okay, so you're teaching them as well how

to use it in a way.

I think, I think it's critical that we all know

how to use this. I

do too. I do too. Now, just curious on a side

note, then, has your son started using it? And no, okay,

no, my Sam, my son who's about to graduate with

a digital media production degree. No, interesting. That

went out,

yeah, I know, like, yes, and my daughter is

the same. I mean, they're older than your son, but one is taking

is doing well with it, and the other is just starting to see

how it could help her. But she's not asking me any questions,

because I don't know anything. So there you go. Yeah, when

he's ready, I have, I have the whole

trajectory for him of what he needs to learn, but I'm not

going to, I'm not going to argue with him. He's 22 when he has

everything, he

knows everything, yeah, exactly he knows

everything, yeah.

So

was I going to say? Okay, I guess I want to ask

you what? What's one piece of advice that you would give to

business owners or professionals who are just starting their

journey to become more visible and engage their audience

effectively,

to trust themselves. Okay? Because I

think when people you know, there is this whole posse of

people that are just waiting for new online business owners to

show up to sell them things they don't need. Yeah, trust

yourself. You won't buy them.

I know I hear it so often,

you could spend years digging yourself out of

that, or you can just go out of business because you don't have

the resources to actually build a business after you've wasted

your time and your money. I

know I can't tell you the number of people that

have hired very expensive coaches, and all they get is

online courses or the odd online connection with that person.

They very rarely see that person. Yeah, and I mean,

you've got to put yourself in the trenches.

You've got to listen and learn, figure out who's doing it? Well,

what I've learned? I mean, next month, I'll be in business 18

years. So I grew up with the internet, you know? We I, when I

started my business, there was no social media, right? And you

really need to learn how to trust yourself and know who

you're working with, know who your client is, know what you do

for them, why you do it for them, and the impact that it

makes. And once you really solid in that the decisions you're

making are coming from that, and that's your values, that's your

why, that's your mission, and that's how you help people. So

that really becomes a very strong barometer in what you

need and what you don't need in your business, like, something

that you can equate it to, like, when you have a baby for the

first time, you have this whole list of things you think you

need and you don't really need that much. All I

remember always saying is, nobody told me about

this. Nobody told me about that. This wasn't in a book, you know,

yeah,

but, but the things that like, if you go into

like, a baby store, they'll give you a list a mile long of all of

the things that you need. You don't need most of them. You

don't need, you know, diaper warmers and you don't need all

that stuff, but you need, you need a way to feed your baby, a

way to bathe your baby, a way to soothe your baby, and a way to,

like, you know, get them to sleep. You don't need much more

than that. And it's the same thing with a business. You don't

need that much when you're starting, because everything

that you're going to do in the beginning is going to change up

here, everywhere, everywhere, like what you know. Think about

when you started your business. How many things are you still

doing?

You find that it's funny. I decided. Did. I

was invited to this book launch that's later today, a friend of

mine and an ex client launching her book. And she was a

politician here for a long time, and has an interesting story,

but she doesn't live in Vancouver anymore, and she's

coming down here to do one of her book launches, and it

happens to be right when the our local, our provincial in Canada,

we have provinces in our provincial election is happening

soon, so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll go the I don't

know who I'm going to see there, or meet there, whatever, but I

don't go to many in person things anymore, and I'm already

thinking, well, if I get there on time, I can probably sneak

out about an hour and a half. That's what I'm already

thinking. But I'm also thinking, I don't even take business cards

anywhere, any I don't have any that are up to date. I just take

my phone now, you know, and it's got all I need. So I'm going to

go for a little while anyway, as long as it's not pouring with

rain, which it seems to be trying to do today. But anyway,

you just never know. You know who you're going to meet or

reconnect with. So, so I'm going to do that. So um, so I just

want to clarify. So when you're working you've got your be

visible mastermind community, and you've got your real 50,

over 50. Do you work one on one with clients as well, and in

that, are you doing their marketing plan with them? Is

that what you're doing, or are you just taking their business

and starting it from the bottom up again?

It's, you know, most of the work that I'm doing

with clients is all around visibility, but it touches

everything. So when I work with clients, I go through everything

that they're doing. Like one client I worked with not too

long ago, what she needed was she needed a lot of advice on

her website, because there were things that just needed to be

fixed. So about half of the work that we did was just me doing a

website audit for her, and she made all the changes, and it's

already making an impact, you know. So I meet people where

they are. I don't do a lot of implementation work anymore. I

don't focus a lot on social media, because I focus more on

content development and strategy, because then you could

take that content you could share, and because the social

media platforms are changing so much, and you just never know

where your audience is, so they really need to learn how to

listen to where their audience is.

Well, that's what I was just going to say. They

don't need to be everywhere, but they need to be where their

audience is not where they like to be, necessarily. They have to

learn where that right platform for them is.

Again, it's a lot easier than people make it

out to be. Of course, you don't need to do if Instagram does 800

things, you probably need like 10, yeah, yeah. And by paying

attention and listening and seeing. You know what people

respond to. You figure out what those 10 things are. And I kind

of push people into the figuring out part, because once you know

that, you can figure this out again, you don't make the bad

choices

right, right? And so when you say helping people

be visible, it's more about being visible on their website

that will draw attention.

It's everywhere. Okay,

do you encourage people to do? Sorry, go ahead.

It's about being intentionally busy, not just not

just push Not, not just pushing out. Yeah, stopping first and

figuring out where you should be, like, where are your knowing

your clients? Where are they, and not just clients, like I

speak in audience, because, yes, people come into the world in

all different ways. I mean, it could be, you know, through the

media. It could be podcast, it could be vendors that you work

with. It could be, you know, the tools that you use in your

business. So opportunities come in all different ways, and I

gotta let my cat in because the landscapers are here. I'm sorry.

All right, so we're just going to wrap up. I'm

going to ask you a couple quick questions. First of all, my

favorite word is curiosity, and I'm sure you love that word too.

I just know, and I want to know a two part question. One, do you

think that curiosity is innate or learned? And part two, what

are you most curious about these days?

So for part one of the question, I think it's

both okay. I think that we all have curiosity inside of us, but

it's more readily accessible to some than others. Okay? And I

think we need. Who really explore the things that make us

curious and cultivate that? Because I really believe that

curiosity is the thing that keeps us young at heart. It

keeps us young that keeps us constantly learning. Since my

son was a little boy, I signed every one of his cards with I

love you. Stay curious. Oh, really.

Oh, that's brilliant. I

really do think that, you know, that's the thing

that sparks everything else. Yes, the thing that continues to

do something, to learn something, to find something.

And then what I'm curious about is, I'm just curious about

people and like, what happens when people connect? And this is

like, one of the gifts that I've received from the real 50 over

50 community is, like, it's just I listen to myself. Like, when

I'm talking to somebody, I'm listening to who do they need to

know? How can I connect them with? Like, what happens when

they meet? Like, what are the things that will happen that

wouldn't have happened if they didn't meet, and that always

gets me curious, because we really need each other. Yeah,

yeah. It's great. That's super Thank you. You

consume a lot of information yourself. Do you is your go to

reading a real book, or audio listening, or video listening,

podcasts, television. What is it? Okay? Okay.

I don't read as many books as I used to, because

my eyes are just so tired at the end of the day. But I listen to

a lot of audio books, and when there's a book that I love, I'll

get the print version too, and I'm like writing in the book

while I'm listening to it.

So I'm guessing those are business related

books, or self or personal development books, not novels.

No, I haven't read a novel in a long time. I

want to, but I just don't have the time. I

know I'm the same way. I did read one a few years

ago. Oh, what was it called? About the young girl in

Louisiana? Oh, crawfish, where the crawdads and, yeah, that was

good. And then I started to try and read lessons in chemistry.

And then I saw that it was on Apple TV, and I thought, oh,

it's drawing me to go watch it instead, because I got through,

yeah, it was really good, yeah, but the book is really good too.

But I just It got a bit I'm glad I saw it on, on the red I

watched, or I read three chapters, and it wasn't staying

there with me. But anyway, so that's kind of fun. But yeah,

generally for me, it's, it's business books, because people

are on my podcast and I like to read their books, but it's hard

to get through them all. Anyway, this has been delightful. Thank

you so much, and thank my audience for being here. And if

you have any questions for Donna, you can find her at

cravata Media Group, and I will put her details in the in the

chat and Donna, do you want? They'll see anything about the

real 50 over 50 and and the be visible club as well, right?

Yeah, everything's on my website,

perfect. Alright, I

encourage you to go check it out, because Donna

doing great work, and it's all about relationships. So thank

you again, and remember to stay connected and be remembered.

Thank you. Bye.