Why Emotional Marketing is the Key to Business Success | RR299

Chantal, welcome everybody. Welcome to

relationships rule. The podcast that explores the power of

connections in business. And today I have with me a second

time incredible guest, Chantal Cornelius, an international

speaker, marketing mentor and author of the new book, standout

strategies outshine your competitors, win new clients,

build lasting success. Chantal has spent years researching why

traditional USP, unique selling propositions fail, and how

businesses can instead leverage emotional marketing to attract

and retain clients. And in this episode, we're going to explore

why emotions drive buying decisions and how you can

identify and use your strongest emotional connection to stand

out in a crowded marketplace. So welcome to the show again.

Cranial Chantal, sorry.

Hi, Janice, thank you so much for having you

back. It's it's great to be back again,

absolutely. And when we first spoke, which was,

I think, around June of last year, we're now in February of

2025, and your book came out, I think officially in December, if

I'm not mistaken, it

was October, October. And then I had an

online launch party in in December last year. That's where

it was okay and and I just have to tell my

audience, because I love connections, and I love how

things happen. So when Chantal had her book and we talked about

coming back on the show, I said, Can you send me your book? And

she said, Well, she would, you know, try, but she's in England.

I'm in Canada. And then, of course, we had a postal strike

as well that happened in Canada. But she was going to a

conference in Costa Rica, which was, I think it was put on by

the Canadian the caps Association, right? The Canadian

Association of speakers. And I knew several people that were

going to be there, and one of them kindly brought the book

back for me, our dear friend, Azadeh. So I got to speak with

Azadeh and have coffee with her, and a great visit. And I got

your book. And so I thought that was really fun, the power of i

love

the I love the way that worked out.

Because, yeah, I was thinking, How do I get the book out to

you? I could post it. And then I heard about the stray, yeah, and

then you almost randomly said, Oh, but I know as a day, and

she's going to be at the conference in Costa Rica,

I know, but yeah,

it worked. It all was

perfect. So we're international connections. Can

can manage, can count. Okay, so your book, I'm we've briefly

talked about it, about the the strategies in your book, your

standout strategies before it was actually published. But now

let's get into the nitty gritty. So you say that USPS don't work

for service businesses, and I, I understand that. Now, after

looking into your book and reading I'm full disclosure,

I've read some of your book, not all of your books. So there you

go. So how, what's the difference? Like, I love this.

It's based on the five strategies are based on

emotions, people's emotions, right? And so USPS are all this

marketing gobbledy gook and jargon that people use. Is that?

Right? More so much, yeah,

yeah. USPS are they're not unique. I know

the word unique, yes. And the reason, the reason they're not

unique, is because everybody says the same. I first noticed

this. I started researching this back in 2015 so it's taken, it's

been 10 years, and I started noticing people saying the same

lines. I'm different because, you know, I'm I'm a marketing

consultant. I can say I'm different because I have 25

years of experience, or because I work in partnership with my

clients, or because I listen to them. But there's nothing there

that is, that is any different to what any other marketing

consultant

say? So, okay, so let's switch it to now the

strategies and tell me how that works differently and how it can

be more successful.

Yeah, this works because people buy based

on emotion, right? 95% roughly of our buying decision well, 95%

of any decision that us humans make is made. They're made

emotionally irrationally and subconsciously. We don't even

know that we're making these decisions. Example often use is

about first impressions. They say first impressions count, and

I walked into a networking event this morning knowing full well

that people would be judging me without realizing that they're

doing it. So they're forming opinions and having thoughts and

making judgments, and it's the subconscious part of their brain

that's doing it, and that's. Fine, but it does also mean we

have to be very aware of how we walk into networking events

depression, and what we then do is we back up the irrational,

emotional decision with a rational, conscious decision. So

somebody might, I might walk into a networking event and

somebody might go, Ooh, I don't know why, but I don't like her,

and it's because their brain has gone I don't like the color of

her dress or her boots or whatever. And then they try to

rationalize, well, oh, well, actually, let me go and talk to

her and see so our brains are beavering away underneath. It's

like an iceberg. There's an awful lot going on under the

service, without us realizing until we kind of get to grips

with it. This also happens when somebody is thinking about

buying something, and particularly when they're

thinking about buying a service, because a service is intangible.

It's not like like a book. You can't pick it up and go. I like

the color, color. I like the size of it. Services, coaching,

consulting, speaking, training, they're intangible. So people,

the the buyers, the clients, are doing this even more. They're

making subconscious decisions about who to work with. I don't

know if you've ever had this Janice, you've met somebody and

you think, Oh, I'd really like to work with them, and I'm not

quite sure why, yes, yes, that's yeah, that's the subconscious

going, I've got an emotional connection with this person,

right? I think the working with them will get me the results I

want, or will allow me to feel the way in which I want to feel.

You know, you might. I've done it. I've worked with people

where I've gone. I don't know why. I just started a new

coaching program, and I met this lovely lady who's also called

Chantal, different spelling, and I just went, I think I want to

work with her now. I then thought I put myself through the

process. Okay, why am I doing? Oh, it's because my subconscious

brain has made a connection based on the language that she

uses in her marketing, and it's all about growth and development

for her. So

I find that I always call it, you know, it's a

gut feeling, or there's right, it's something that's, you know,

intangible for sure. I know you saying that that gut feeling is

really my subconscious bringing up what I need to make that

connection. Yeah, exactly.

Your gut and or your heart will make a

decision initially, and then your head will get involved and

say, Yes, Janice, actually, you can work with that person

because look at their credentials or look at their

website, it looks nice. So yeah,

so let's just, let's just start with what your

five success strategies are, and then, because I've taken your

test twice, I want to know how I can make this work for me, and I

think that will be helpful for for my audience as well. So go

ahead.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. There are five strategies,

and every business will have one major strategy, one of the five

that that is the best one for their business. This isn't about

trying to use all five. Remember. This is about being

unique. It's about it's about one. Number one is called

certainty. It's about being a safe pair of hands. It's where

people want to they want a supplier with whom they feel

safe and secure, who just gets the job done, who turns up, does

the work or or tells them what to do,

like like your contractor. You definitely want

to have someone that makes you feel safe

absolutely and it's the strategy that I use

all the time in my marketing business, my client, I do a lot

of mentoring, and they want me to tell them what to do. There's

no guesswork. It's like, okay, client, do this, this and this

to promote your business. And it'll, it'll work. So that's,

that's certainty, okay. The second one is connection. This

is where people will work with a supplier, or they'll look for

somebody who can bring them into a family or a tribe, or help

them, help them feel a sense of belonging. And I think you do

this to a certain extent with your business. Through LinkedIn,

you help people to feel connected to each other. So this

isn't about you having a connection to them, it's about

you helping them to connect with other people. Okay, it's a

brilliant example, actually, of connection. We use LinkedIn in

order to connect with colleagues, clients, prospects.

Yes,

you you use examples of that in your book.

All a lot about LinkedIn being a great community for a great

platform for that? Absolutely,

it's one, one of the best. Yeah, the third

strategy is called contribution. This one is, oh, there's a,

there's a, there's a fabulous company in the in the UK called

stand out socks. I love it because, because they're called

stand out and my book is called stand out strategies. Yeah, the

company was set up by two. Brothers, and one of them has

Down syndrome, which is a learning disability, and his

older brother wanted, I've seen a video on them. Ah, okay, yeah,

they, they want Dragons Den over here. Yes, a load of funding.

I'm wearing stand out socks as

well. You need to use those as gifts for your

company. Stand out. That's right,

yeah. And I did. I ran a big conference last

year, and we gave all the speakers stand up as thank you

gifts. The colors and the designs are fabulous. They're

really they're really bright and funky. I've got yellow and blue

ones on today. But of course, you promote. They promote, aside

from making great socks, they promote their business on the

fact that it was set up to give Ross a job somewhere where it

works safely. I've seen the video. It's fantastic. It's

brilliant, isn't it? Yeah, and the majority of the people who

work there have some sort of learning disability, so when you

buy their socks, you get a lovely pair of socks. But you

also feel this sense of giving back and helping other people.

So that's a really nice example of contribution. The fourth

strategy is called growth. This one is about helping. This is

where clients either want personal growth or business or

both. The two often go together. So this might be somebody

wanting to feel motivated, inspired, empowered, excited to

go off and do, to do, do new things. I have a coach who

motivates me and inspires and excites me about about new

projects. So that's that. That's great fun, okay? And the fifth

one is called significant, which is all about wanting to feel,

wanting to feel seen and heard, wanting to be respected and

recognized make a bigger impact that that sort of thing so,

but not necessarily making a difference.

It could be making a difference. We are

making a bigger impact. Yeah, that's an interesting point.

Yeah, because I think of contribution as making

a difference. And yeah, definitely the people who are

influencers, and you know, want to be seen and heard? Do they

also want to make a difference? I don't know

if they do, then that's even better. Yes,

yeah, okay,

okay, so, as you mentioned in your book, and as I

experienced when we spoke last time, on your website, you offer

people the an opportunity to go through a test to determine

which their strengths are, which of the five strategies are their

dominant ones. And I so have questions, because I did it. I

not only did it once, I think I did it twice, and and you've got

the results there. So I want you to because I was surprised. So I

think my primary one was growth, yes. And when I think of growth,

I think of my background as a teacher, and I think of, I think

of helping others do better in whatever it is like, so teaching

them LinkedIn, so doing better, so that giving them more tools

to work with. But I actually thought the one that came up

more secondary would have been my strength, one which is

connection,

connection, yeah, so

can you speak to me about how to use both of

those are why one would be more stronger just

to leave, go on, yeah, of course. And also,

for anyone listening, the reason that Janice took the test twice

is because I changed the test. Oh, that's right. Initially the

test on my website, there were five columns of words, and I

asked people to pick the words that they so if you ask your

clients, how do you feel when you work with me, you listen out

for the words, and then you you tick those words that they say

and that, that was the first version of the test, and it

worked pretty well, but a lot of people either ticked too many

words or not enough. So some, some of the results came out a

bit a bit strange. What I've since done is I've combined all

of the words into one great big alphabetical test list, and I

ask people to tick no more than 15, that's right, and they're

the same words. I then run them through a clever system that

we've set up, which comes up with a result. And what we're

finding is that the second version of the test is more

accurate because it's not leading people, right? And if

somebody's heard me speak, or they've read the book, or they

read articles on my website, and they're thinking, Oh, I think

I'm growth. I'm going to tick all the words in the purple

column, right? You can't do that anymore, right?

I find it confusing as well, because some

are nouns, some aren't some. And I always found that being a

grammar nerd, I was like frustrated by it. But anyway,

that helps too. It's the sort of test to

take without thinking about it too, exactly, rattle through it

in a couple of minutes. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So both times your

top strategy. Came out as growth, which is about helping

people and and or businesses to grow personally or

professionally. Now, if you're training somebody in how to

build better relationships and how to use LinkedIn, more that,

for me, definitely says growth, both on the personal and the

business side. You could have somebody who is looking for a

new job and is using LinkedIn personally to find a job. So by

using LinkedIn more and by looking for a new job, they're

growing personally, okay. Equally, there are people like

me using LinkedIn to grow my business and looking for better

ways of better ways of growing it. So it doesn't surprise me

that that's that's high for you, because at the end of the day,

particularly with businesses using LinkedIn, is about growing

a business, about finding more clients and more contacts.

So what you're saying then, if growth is my

highest result, my strategy. Then in my marketing materials,

I need to speak about how I help you the the prospect. Build more

relationships, grow your business through visibility,

things like that. That would help. Okay,

that makes sense. The best thing you can do

is actually not use the word growth, okay, because potential

clients won't. They don't. What I've noticed is they don't use

the five strategy words. You know, people don't come to me

and say, I want certainty. They come to me and say, I want to

feel safe, I want to feel confident in my marketing. I

want to feel clarity. So for you, Janice, have a look at page

15 of the book, because that's got the lists on right? This is,

this is how they used to appear on the test. Look at the purple

list. Yeah, says purple list. So these are the these are the

words, these are the emotions and the feelings. This is how

your clients want to feel when they work with you. So they want

to feel challenged. They want you to challenge them. To be

saying, well, okay, why are you using LinkedIn like that? Or

actually don't do that, do this. They want a sense of courage and

education from you, where you're supporting them, pushing them in

the right direction. They want to feel energized and excited,

rather than you, rather than coming by going, Oh, I can't

stand LinkedIn. I don't know what to do with it. They

want my client. This is great. Love it. Yeah.

Okay. These

words in the purple list, and there are lots

more. These are the ones for you to use in your marketing. So

even the ones that I didn't highlight that

brought me to that list,

got it? Yeah. Okay, absolutely, yeah. So you

highlighted a certain number of growth words. You highlighted

proportionately more growth words than right? You're when

you're writing in your marketing, you can be saying, my

clients work with me because they want to feel a sense of

hope and imagination about where they could go next and how

LinkedIn can help them get to where they want to go. And

it was interesting that you said, gosh,

now I've just gone from my head.

Nope, gone, have to come back to it. So I'm sorry. That's

probably why I started to interrupt you, because I forget

things. I apologize that it's not, no, I'm moving on. So, so

Well, I think it's, it's, it's interesting, because we tend to

focus too much on us, and we don't think enough about the

other person. Like, there's all these lots of coaches I've

talked to and and business owners that have taken NLP, you

know, they think about the other person more than those who

haven't. But the the whole thing is about emotion. It's like,

right? And it's funny, you know, I actually, I talked to somebody

yesterday who reached out to me from an organization that I

belong to, and I thought I knew who he was, because I thought

I'd met him before, and I had I was right, but I was also right

about my preconceived notion about him, and so he was calling

me to see what my take on LinkedIn was, and if I could

help him. And I knew, like right away, I knew he wasn't my

person. I right. I didn't want that person as my client,

because he he wasn't all about connection and about he was

about growth, but he was more about give me the numbers, tell

me the ROI, if I work with you, it was all of that, that things

I couldn't answer, really, because. Because you, you have

to do the work. I can't promise it, right, that it's going to

happen if you don't go there and do the work. But yeah, I could

tell very distinctly that I wasn't going to work with this

person. Yeah,

and that's, that's one of one, something

that I really love about these strategies. I I've, I've had it

in the past where I've, I've got it wrong. I've worked with

somebody I shouldn't have done because I wasn't concentrating.

I thought, well, I need the money, but the more I focus on

my certainty type clients, the more I get it right. If somebody

comes to me and says, Oh, I'm looking for really fast growth

in my business, and can you help me get loads of results in and

lots more clients, I say, No, that's that's not who I am.

That's not, that's not the way I do marketing. I do marketing

with. It's not fun, exciting or sexy. It's it's steady, it's

regular. It's telling people what to do. So it means that

when we know which is the right strategy for our business, we

can get the marketing out there which attracts the right people.

And it's wonderful, because it actually detracts the wrong

people. It's the wrong people from getting in touch, because

they look at our marketing go, oh, actually, well, I don't

think I want to work with so I don't want to feel like that

well, or they see and they see your name, and

they're curious, but they haven't really done their

homework to see right whether there's a fit

and it means that if, if they do slip through

the net, and we end up having client, potential client calls

with them, the way I do is I listen to their language. Now,

I've been researching this and writing about it for nearly 10

years, so it's it's in my head. I can't get it out. But practice

this Janice, because the more you talk to people, the more

you'll get used to listening to the language that they're using.

And if you say to somebody, how would you like to feel at the

end of a session working with me, or at the end of six months,

if they're saying, oh, I want to feel inspired and motivated. I

want to feel optimistic and I want you to, I want to, I want

to feel stretched, those are all growth words. Whereas if they're

saying, oh, I want, I want, I want to feel safe, that's a

really big one for certain. So, yeah, you can, you can be

listening out to for what they say well, and

just that, that whole questioning piece is

something I don't ask. I don't have an I don't find myself

saying, how do you want to feel at the end of it? So that's

something in itself that I think, you know, or how did you

feel at the end of our session? Or, you know, I'm not a

psychiatrist or a coach even. I'm right, but I think I um, I

often, if I'm talk, if I'm teaching and I'm doing a

training on on LinkedIn, let's say, and I'm and I'm talking,

and I'll say, I do a little bit, and then I'll say, does that

make sense? So I'm getting looking for feedback to make

sure that I'm on the right track, or that I don't have to

say it again, but that's got nothing to do with marketing

strategies. That just has to do with teaching technique. I'm

guessing, yes,

yes. And what you could do at the end of a

session is, is be saying, how was that? How do you feel as a

result of that training session? That's and it's get that word

feel in Yes, because you could say, how was that for you? And

they'll go, oh, Janice, that was amazing, which is lovely, but

there's no emotion in there. So if you say, how do you feel at

the end of this, yeah, and then it's not what they say,

Yeah, that's good. I know that if I've had

conversations with prospects and maybe they're not ready to do

the work yet, and and they don't want to do it yet. They know

that they're waiting to get some money saved up, or they're or

they're waiting till they finished some major thing that

they're doing. And I remember this girl said to me a couple

months ago, I When I'm ready, I know I'm going to work with you,

because we had that conversation that built more of the

relationship, I think. And then, you know, I've checked back with

her just to say hi and whatever, and she says, Hey, I'm, I'm

still, you're still on the list, you know. So they get that, but

you do have to do that too. You have to follow up. That's

another whole story, but you do have to follow up to make that

happen. So that was one practical way to incorporate

emotional marketing into branding and messaging. Can you

give me a couple of other examples that people could use

to absolutely it's, it's, it's a three stage

process. The first, the first part is using language in your

marketing. So, on your LinkedIn profile, on your website,

wherever, however you you do marketing is use the language.

So use literally, use the words. And I've had clients write

phrases like, when clients work with me, they feel x, y z. How

would you like to feel? X, Y, Z? That at the end of working with

me, so that's that's using in your marketing the second stage

is using it in sales conversations. I know that my

ideal clients are really looking for confidence and clarity.

Those are big certainty words. They are looking for confidence

in sharing their marketing message and getting it out their

confidence in standing up at a networking event saying, Hello,

this is what I do. But also they're looking for clarity of

that message. So being able to say what I do is boom, rather

than one of the people I met this morning who took about five

minutes to tell me all the 69 different things she did. So

when people say to me in a sales conversation, what will I get

from working with you? Chantal, I say things like, you will get

the confidence to deliver your message and the clarity of what

that message is. And they go, Oh, that's exactly what I want.

And I've been practicing this because I know how to do it. So,

yeah, you know it's, it's weaving, it in. If somebody

doesn't say to you in a sales call, what will I get? Tell them

what you'll get from working with me is, now we can't make

anybody feel anything. So you can't say I will make you feel,

but you can say you will get a sense of you will feel. So

that's part two, that's the sales. The third bit super

important is the actual delivery. So the work that

you're doing when I'm working with mentoring clients, I tell

them what to do. I don't say what marketing do you think

would work? I just say, this, this and this. Just do that. I'm

very bossy. I'm very straight talking. I have clients who

phone me up, saying, Should I be doing this? And I say no,

because so so and I've seen, I've seen businesses in the past

that sell themselves, let's say on growth, but then try to

deliver connection, and there's a huge mismatch, and you'll lose

clients. If you do that, it definitely say that again. Say

that again. If you so your your strategy dances growth. If you

use growth in your sales and marketing. And potential clients

came along and went, Oh, that's exactly what I want. That's how

I want to feel. They buy in. They pay you some money if you

then deliver something like connection rather than growth,

they're not going to be happy clients, because that's what

not. That's not what they bought from you, that's not what

they're expecting. So you have to deliver. It's the same

emotion. I used to think there was some leeway. I've changed my

mind. There isn't. If people buy certainty from me, I deliver

certainty.

Okay, so, okay, now I have to back up, because

do I mix things up? Is? Is now the question, right? Because I

know that if I'm talking to a client or prospect, let's say

about LinkedIn training, and they they're looking because,

well, they might have, they might already be on LinkedIn,

but they don't really use it properly, and they want to up

the level of their visibility, and they want to Use it for

connecting to people, I usually say quite clearly up front and I

don't know I think it's more connection than growth. Is that

the thing that I focus more on than not is building

relationships on LinkedIn, right? Yeah, because I believe

that most people are so focused on content, for example, on

LinkedIn, which is you still have to do that but, but it's

not, it's more passive, whereas you need to be building those

relationships, building connections to boards,

relationships to really, I think, to connect with the right

people. Because, again, it comes back to the emotion, is the

connection to people. So I'm babbling, but do you understand

what

I do? I get it totally, yeah. So, and this

it, you're right some, sometimes it's okay to have two

strategies. Okay, one major one and then a little bit of

something else. You can't have more than two. Doesn't it

doesn't work. So what people are probably doing is they're coming

to you because they want to feel more energized and excited about

using LinkedIn, right? Which means that in your delivery, you

have to energize and excite them. You can't sit there going,

well, LinkedIn is not really very helpful, is it? And I don't

really like it anyway, you laugh. I went to a workshop

recently, and the presenter was teaching us a tool, and then he

said, I don't actually think this tool works. Waste of time.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, so they buy into you because they want to

grow through LinkedIn, so you've then got to give them that

excitement motivation. But because you're doing LinkedIn

training, you Janice, you only are allowed to sprinkle in a bit

of connection, because when you took the test, your second

highest was connection one time, yeah, and with LinkedIn, the

people, the reason that people use it is it's all, you're

right? It's about, it's about building relationships. So it's

about, I'm looking at the list of words. It's about friendship

and harmony and being part of something bigger. So look on

page 15 at the red Yes, those are the connection words, right?

You I would really focus mostly on the purple words, the growth

words, but you can sprinkle in a little bit of a little bit of

the red

well. And I also think that it's because some

people aren't comfortable building relationship. They

would rather do the other so I also have to gage it to the

people, right? I

think as well, people are coming to you.

They are buying growth from you. Got it. They're not initially

buying connection, okay? They're buying growth and then you're

delivering growth with some connection. If you promoted your

business purely on connection, you'd be saying, come and work

with me, and I can help you become part of a big community.

Yeah, yes, you can, because LinkedIn is one great big

community. But they don't want that. That's not, that's not

what they buy. So they want, they want to know how to build

those connections, yeah, but in order to get growth for

themselves or their correct

the ROI, yeah, yeah, okay, this is amazing, and

I know we could go on forever. So what I'm going to suggest is,

first of all, it was very insightful, and thank you for

indulging me a little bit there. I hope that my audience will see

the power of that, that exercise that we did. And I do believe

that, as you that the key to winning clients isn't about the

lowest price or the fastest service, it's about making a

deep, emotional connection. And I would like to encourage my

audience to go to your website, which will be on the apple tree

marketing, which will be on the show notes, under the show

notes, and to take your test as a start, and then to take your

to buy your book, because the it's it's there. I mean, it's

really all there. And if they want to work with you,

absolutely, to reach out and do so and but dive deeper by

looking into Chantal book stand out strategies, which I think

they can find anywhere as well as on your website, correct?

It's the best place at the moment, is on the

website. Okay? This podcast goes out, I will. It is on Amazon.

I'm not sure it's working internationally. If you can

contact me and I can, we can sort it out.

So, yeah, perfect. Okay, so any last words

for my audience? Oh,

yes. If you're not sure how your your

clients feel about you, ask them. Yeah, love that. And the

best thing to do is very old fashioned. It's very simple,

pick up the phone. Oh, how? You know, have a zoom conversation.

Meet somebody for coffee, take them out for lunch. I've done a

lot of this, of saying to clients, why is it you work with

me? I did a lot of this in the early days when I was first

researching this. Why do you work with me? What do you like

about what I do? How do you feel when you work with me, and yeah,

it's I am also developing another version of the test, or

a couple of versions, where you can send the test to clients and

ask them to fill it in, and I will then collate all of those

results so you could send it to 10 clients. Yes, yeah. I will

then collate all of those, all of their answers to make sure

that it's growth, pretty darn sure it is, but it's just going

to be an extra extra well. And

here's something somebody that I know wrote about

the other day, and I went at the light bulb went on, and it was

basically like, I'm it's about, okay, I do LinkedIn training.

One of the things that I encourage people to do is to

start, unless they are not allowed to buy compliance

issues, is to get recommendations on LinkedIn,

because that's the only social proof that we have on social on

LinkedIn. So with those recommendations, and I've been

very fortunate, and I have a lot of them on there because I ask

for them, I can take that information and use it in my

marketing as well.

You can very definitely one word of caution

is that the majority of people, when they write a LinkedIn

recommendation do not use any emotional words,

oh, I'm going to look at. That. So that's okay,

because people, when I was people, have

asked me a lot, you know, Can I can I find out from my LinkedIn

recommendations how people feel when they work with me?

Generally? No, it doesn't work because we don't say to people,

could you write me a LinkedIn recommendation that explains how

you feel when you work with me? I actually

sometimes do ask that. So that's interesting.

Okay, I will look, I will look, and I'll let you do

it. Definitely, okay, but, but

generally, it's much better to just, just pick up the phone,

just have a conversation and ask and then, and then listen to

what they say. Yes, that's great for building relationships.

Anyway,

I know, I know magic. It's all magic. So thank

you again, and thank you for thank you to my audience for

tuning in to relationships rule until next time, stay connected

and be remembered. I lost my recording. There we go. Stop

recording.