Leadership isn’t about titles—it’s about showing up with empathy, kindness, and genuine care for people.
In this episode, I sit down with Traycee Mayer, author of The Leadership Contradiction, to discuss her refreshing take on modern leadership. Traycee shares how her experience in the hospitality industry shaped her belief that caring for employees directly translates to better business outcomes. She emphasizes the importance of self-care for leaders, the power of connection, and how true leadership begins with being present and intentional.
Traycee also dives into the challenges of post-pandemic leadership, the value of in-person interactions, and how leaders can bridge the gap between professional results and emotional intelligence. Her message is clear: when leaders lead with love, trust, and compassion, everyone wins.
Highlights:
Connect with Traycee:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trayceemayer/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theleaderpaths/
Book: The Leadership Contradiction - https://a.co/d/8OoM07a
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complimentary LinkedIn profile audit – I do one each month for a lucky
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Music. Hello everyone, and welcome to this
latest episode of relationships rule. This as we record is our
first episode of 2025 I'm excited to have my guest with me
today, Tracy Meyer, welcome Tracy. First of
all, Oh, thank you, Janice. And I'm so excited.
Yes, it is the seventh of January, and we're getting used
to 2025 already. I know happy me. I'm so excited.
My pleasure. Tracy and I just met recently in
in the fall, and have had some great conversations about what
she does and what I do in our kids and our grandkids. And so
it's kind of, it's, it's kind of fun to have her on my podcast
and be able to share with you her expertise and her passion. I
think, for for what she does shows through. And I know that
Tracy wrote a book, had a book published last year called the
leadership contradiction, choosing a path of love and
kindness, and it kind of challenges, I think she
challenges the traditional leadership paradigms by
advocating for empathy, love and kindness as core leadership
principles. And I wanted to start there, because that's
actually in a way, yeah, against the grain, right? And so can you
talk to our audience about that and and what you think is it
like a path that you're leading to change people that way, or is
it something that you've noticed over the years, because I know
you've been in this industry of coaching for a long time. What
was it? How did that come to be? Oh
my goodness. So thank you for asking Janice. And
yes, I've enjoyed getting to know you, by the way, and it's
when we talk about our grand, grand babies. But so yeah, I
wrote the book that leadership contradiction was, which was
something I coined, kind of post COVID. I had been on a hike
during that time and doing a lot of reflecting, and at one point,
and I talk about this at the beginning of the book, I kind of
felt this, this something kind of caused me to pause and to
look kind of back where I had come from, on on the hike. And
then it was a canyon I had hiked for many years, and then look
forward and, and at that moment in time, you know, I was 55
years old, and, you know, I kind of felt like everything in my
life had, kind of like the decisions had been made and, you
know, my path was set, and there was this really incredible
moment where I thought, wow, the biggest decisions are still
ahead of me. And you know, it prompted me to start talking
about this thing that happened, and I had taken some notes for
myself. And you know, before I know it, you know, people were
saying, oh my gosh, you need to write a book about this, because
you do think differently about about the way leadership should
be. So I reflected back on on my many years, 40 years of
leadership, and I always have felt like it is important to
love and care for your employees. It's important to be
kind. It's important, you know, all of that is, is the driver
for success in business. Now, I know that there are other great
leaders out there, like, like Mary, Mary Barra, with, with,
with jams. You know, she's a huge advocate of kindness at
work and such. And there's some great success stories, and one
of them as well. You know, when I reflect back, my success was
because my employees felt cared for. They felt that, that I was
a leader and that they would follow me, you know, I didn't
have to look back and see if they were there. I cared about
them, and they knew I they, you know, I knew they cared about
me. And so, so that, that to me, is leadership. The leadership
contradiction, on the other hand, is, is a topic, or, I
guess, a title I coined, and I because I believe that leaders
disqualify themselves from being leaders. They can be called
managers or bosses, but when they don't really care about
their employees, and I mean, really take the time to know who
they are, you know what's important to them. You know how
they can help them succeed, you know, then, you know, don't call
yourself a leader, because they're probably not really
following you. They're probably just getting through their days.
You know, I know I've had a few jobs of that myself, even as a
leader, I've always had, you know, reported to the president
of the company, or whomever it might be. So yeah, it's all
based upon a path that I feel like I've been traveling, and I
have something new that I'm getting ready to release
probably next month, that I've been working on for a dozen
years, that exactly is tied into the pathways and how we how we
lead, whether that's a family or business. Business, a community
nonprofit, your neighborhood group, whatever it is. And so
yeah, that's a long answer to how passionate and excited I get
about leadership and and you know how we really can impact
other people's lives?
Well, I wonder. I'm curious about the fact I
know I think you were in the hospitality industry for many
years, and that's where your leadership skills were honed,
right in your path for doing that. And that, to me, seems
like that should be a place that that industry should be a place
where people care about people, because it's a whole thing about
looking after your guests, right? And is that true, or is
there a lot of the opposite that goes on, and so you had to fight
to make that change?
So I would say that that there's not a lot of
that like I wouldn't say that that is the overwhelming drive.
Yes, hospitality should be and mostly is focused in that way.
It could always be more, just like any kind, yeah, so in
hospitality, oh, I'm sorry. So it's okay. It's not only our
guests that are important, but I think that's, that's the part
that I want to talk about, that I think sometimes we are so
focused on the guests that we forget. It's about the employees
that make the success. So you So, as a general manager, for a
number of years in full service hotels, I said to my employees,
you know what? I will take great care of you. You take great care
of the guests. Because my job was really wasn't about walking
around, you know, with a big title and making, you know, X
amount of dollars or what have you, but, but at the end of the
day, I felt my my responsibility during that part of my career,
which is about 25 years of my career, that that it was to help
those people grow and help them feel appreciated and loved in
their workplace. So that is not always present, and I've heard
that today, as I as I continue to coach folks in that industry,
as well as others
well. You know, my daughter has, in the past
year, has taken on a role that's bigger than she's ever done
before, and she now has a team of about 10 people and that she
looks after. And so she's learning the next level of
leadership. And this was her first holiday season coming, you
know, with this group of people and everything, and she reverted
right back to what is her core, which is so lovely, which was
she had to make hand created cards for each of her people on
her team, as well, as, you know, and got them very thoughtful
gifts. And that is her to the core. And I thought, wow, Sarah,
you're going to put, you know, that's going to be something
that's going to stand out for each of them. I don't think I
said this to her, actually, because it was so thoughtful,
and it did mean, you know, something special. And so I was
that's what I think of. When you talk about what you're talking
you know, what you talk about. I think she's got that gene, and I
love that because, yeah, it's important to make people feel
special and important, because you give, they will give Right,
absolutely and, and I love that, and I'd love to
meet your daughter, because it is so true. You know, there,
there are so many schools of thought out there that that that
contradict what we believe is true, or what we see is true, is
because they say, Well, how can you, you know, spend your time,
you know, being so nice to people. You know, what about the
line? And it's like, you know what, we can't meet the bottom
line on our own, because that's not, you know that that is, yes,
important. That's why we're general managers, or we're
senior directors or leaders. But at the end of the day, it's the
employees who help drive that success of the company as a
whole, and and it does matter, and we can bring love and
kindness back to work. You know, for a while it had a bad name,
you know, I write about that in my book too. Love is not a four
letter word, you know, because, because some people did the
wrong things at work. And, and, you know, it became, you can't,
you know, you can't even shake people's hands. You can't pat
them on the back, but I'm here to say that we need to bring
that back, because you spend 40 hours a week plus with people at
work, whether or not you're, you know, virtual or, you know, on a
zoom all day, you're still spending time with those people.
And it does matter that you care for them and that you connect
with them.
You know, that's that's actually brings up a
thought for me, because since COVID, of course, there's still
a lot of people who are working in isolation at home, possibly
by choice, because it's just and maybe not on some regard. But. I
see in in some people that I know that that's hurting them,
because there's no social connection real people
connection with their organization and it I don't know
there's no love. There is what it looks like to me. Do you find
yourself talking to those kinds of companies and encouraging
ways to make that happen. Or, you know what?
I don't know? Yeah, absolutely. So you know, I
still do, because I moved across the country this this year, I
still do some virtual coaching, but I also I'll travel anywhere
in the world, and I like to do hybrid coaching, where, you
know, I can do a couple of sessions with someone online and
do some virtual coaching. And I think you can get, you know, you
can, you can, if you're, if everybody's open to being very
transparent honest, you can definitely make some headway.
But I like to also, when I'm working with teams, is after
I've done some private coaching online. Is, is go into the
office or, you know, meets, Meet the Team somewhere where we
could all meet in person. Because as great as we've been
able to get through virtual meetings, it is, it is true,
still, that that in person, contact is so crucial to us as a
human and, you know, there you can make even better headway. So
for everybody out there who is still stuck in the virtual
world, and there's, there's so many excuses, right? I know when
I was in California, it was traffic, you know, here I could
say because it's was six degrees this morning when I went to meet
for breakfast. But guess what? I got in my car and it was six
degrees and I went and met a client at a coffee shop about 10
minutes to my office, absolutely and I'm so excited and thrilled
that here in the Midwest, where there's snow, is crazy people,
even more than I've ever seen, love to meet in person. So snow,
rain, yeah, ice, we still meet. So I'm kind of joyful about
that. So yeah, it's time for us to continue, whether we're
networking or we're talking with a client, there is something
really special about looking at someone eye to eye. Yeah, that's
true. There is Yeah. It's been a while for me.
I tend to have become a bit more of a recluse since all of that
happened, but I'm getting better at getting back out there and
changes. It's changes things for sure. So there are a lot of
leadership coaches out there, and I know for me, I teach, I do
LinkedIn training. There's a lot of LinkedIn trainers out there
as well. So when somebody is looking at hiring you as a
coach, I pretty much think I know what you're going to say.
But what do you say is the thing that makes you stand out from
the crowd? What's your USP? What's your unique selling
proposition? Absolutely, so
I am trained by UC Berkeley, in addition to my
40 years of leadership, just to solidify the idea that I help
find heart and meaning and hold space for people to kind of get
unstuck and figure out where they're they're headed. I hear a
lot about that nowadays that you know, people aren't quite sure.
They don't have clarity. They don't know where they're going.
And I am a coach that you know has a lot of talent, like other
coaches out there, but with 4040, years of leadership and
this huge compassionate heart, I help leaders soften up a little
and find their inner kindness and focus on their employees,
because it really is about the employees. It's not about us.
We're lucky as a leader we get to, you know, make, make X,
amount of dollars, and, you know, be in a bigger office,
what have you. But it's really about the employees. So I help
leaders level up so that they can develop the people that work
for them.
So I think more about the business owner, the
entrepreneur, because that's more my audience than the big
corporations. However, it's leading. It's leading self,
first, right, and then being able to lead others. But when I
lost my training, thought I. Uh, something you said about the can
you teach compassion in people, or is that something you're born
with?
I believe that you can teach it. And I actually
spoke to a group of women entrepreneurs last Friday. And
first of all, what you said about, you know, being an
entrepreneur, you know, it's, it is Elite is a leadership
position. You're leading your business, or you're leading
yourself. And the topic of my talk was permission to love
yourself first. And that's directly out of my book. So I, I
had some things that I had developed over the years, that I
didn't even realize that I was doing, you know, or that other
people would care about it, I guess is what I'm saying. I did
this thing called, PS, I love you, where I would take a day
off in the middle of the week and just drive to Palm Springs
and stay in a really nice hotel, buy myself a really nice dinner,
go shopping, lay out by the pool, you know, that kind of
stuff. So this talk that I, that I'm giving to a lot of women's
groups right now is, you know, love yourself first. You know,
you may be a senior vice president at a large
corporation, you may be an entrepreneur and the only person
that you're working for. You may have a small staff, but you
gotta love yourself first. And so, you know, we come up with
with little exercise on ways that they can take care of
themselves. Maybe it's just going out and buying a bouquet
of flowers and a nice candle or a bottle of wine and taking care
of, you know yourself at night. Because I believe that if you
don't love yourself first, you can't love anybody else. You
just can't you get stressed. You get you get anxious, you know.
And a lot of times we get, we get hung up in that as leaders,
we feel like, you know, we got to just give, give, give to
everybody else, whether it's our family at home or it's our, it's
our, it's our neighbors or our community or or it's the
employees that work that's great. But I'm saying, you know,
take care of yourself first. And so, yeah, a lot, a lot of the
coaching I'm doing is directly out of my book. There's, there's
things that you can just, you know, tab the pages, which I've
heard people do a lot, and they, they just do something that I
talk about doing. And that's nice of them. Yeah,
that's really nice. So do you have an Do you
have an example of where applying those love and kindness
examples in a difficult workplace led to a positive
outcome, yeah,
absolutely, one of the things that that happened
recently, the client that I just finished up with the last year,
they they had five different locations in in a particular
county And and so different managers managing different
locations, and many of them had never met, and a couple of them,
and one in particular was, was the low, low person on the totem
pole, so to speak, right? They they weren't doing their job
very well. I actually often do test calls first, if it has to
do with sales or operations, which which, likely it is,
regardless, regardless of what business I will do a mystery
call first and talk to the person as though I'm a customer.
Oh, fun, yeah. And, and then I'll give a report back to the
client as part of the beginning of the coaching, so we kind of,
I can give them an idea of where I'm headed. Well, this one
employee, I called to book a nice piece of business with them
at their hotel, and I never got a call back. And so, so that was
on the report, and and then I, you know, I got to call the
person and say, you know, and make sure they took my call and
said, you know, this is not a, you know, gotcha. This is not
you're going to lose your job, but this is, we got to change.
You know what's going on with you, and find out what's going
on. Why didn't you return my call, etc. So I worked with them
and had a couple of individual coaching sessions, and then we
brought everybody together from all five locations. They were
all within driving distance. One was a couple hours away, but we
got everybody together, and we started talking about different
tools and skills to help them get better at what they do,
because they could all learn from it. And I didn't have to
point out nobody else knew that that one person had had that,
that really bad call. But I think, actually, I think they
ended up bringing it up to the group because they realized that
they were being treated with compassion, with kindness, their
boss cared about their success, and even though the boss
couldn't figure out what was going on, because they got boss
stuff, leadership stuff, to do, right? Yeah, that's my job as a
coach, is to go in and find out what's wrong and fix it. So.
Yeah. So, you know, several weeks later, I went and met with
the regional vice president, and the first thing out of his mouth
was, Tracy, everybody's talking about the success of this
person, that they were going to fire them, and now they're one
of the top performing persons in the company. So they invested in
me as a coach to invest in their employees. And I was, I had the
time because that's what I was there for, to find out what the
problem was, to inspire that person to fix it, and to inspire
them as a group and build connections with them. And yeah,
that was that was pretty awesome to hear that. And I had heard,
well, yeah, the owner of the company has been talking about
it too, so haven't had a chance to meet, meet that person yet.
But of course, I'm looking forward to it because, yeah,
people are talking about it. And I have, I have lots of examples
like that, thank goodness. But it's, it's fun for me. You know,
that's more rewarding than than what I get paid. Just to know
that people are succeeding, yeah,
for sure. And the fact that just the mere fact
that as an employee, one would feel that they're being cared
about, cared for by their their management team, is a lot. I
mean, there's a lot of people like me, though, that don't ever
want to work for somebody else. They want to be their own boss
and so, but they have to do all those same things. You have to
show people that you care. If you don't show them that you
care, there's no incentive, you know, right? Yeah, and you said
something else so earlier about and I think it was more in a
career perspective, but you said there's people who don't know
where they're going or what's next, or they don't have right
and is that really important in today's world? Because I also
thought when you said that, that we don't know what our next
thing's going to be, because we change our jobs, and we change
our careers, and we change our our businesses more often now
than we ever have. So,
right? So yes, and that's so profound in
itself, right? So what it was, yeah, absolutely true Janice and
that, and that's, that's really to my point of, yes, there's a
lot of coaches out there and of all different qualifications and
so on and so forth. But I really, I fully, believe that
people do need guidance today, and both the leaders and the Oh,
please.
I wasn't suggesting that they didn't
know. I mean, that we don't have to change
jobs. We don't have to change employees as much as we seem to
think that we do that with with a good reset of the leader as
well as the employees. You know, we can salvage these, these
people where they're not horrible, they're just having
had the right training, they have the right guidance. You
know, we do impact people's trajectory, you know, their path
and so, yeah, I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I'm
concerned about the rapid overturn of talent of people in
jobs. You know, my last example was, was that point exactly. It
cost them more money to replace that employee than to to buy, to
pay for a coach to go fix the situation and actually bring the
whole team up to a better notch. So it's a good it's a good
business decision. Your coaches and and I'm finding that more
and more, you know, I coach leaders, and they're having such
success, instead of them now taking the time to coach their
employees. I just got a call last week from another client
who said, Can you coach my senior team? You know, because I
got to do my job, and I thank you who you've helped love, you
know, bring, you know, bring me to a new level. But I can do the
same with their team, and it's going to be where, you know,
she'll come back and she knows what to expect, you know, of her
team being trained. So, yeah, I'm super excited about that,
because that hopefully I'm only one, one coach. I do work with a
lot of other coaches, though, you know. So you know, one, one
person at a time will, try to change, you know, the way that
things are going, but yeah, hopefully the message gets out
there. Yeah, investing in a good coach who knows what they're
doing. Yeah, yeah. That's
definitely, definitely more more out there
now than ever before. I know. Okay, so let's dive. Let's just
take a left turn for a second. And I know that you have a very
full life on your own. You're scoot your license, or whatever
they call it, certified scuba diver, right big time. And have
been many places in the world doing that. That's amazing. It's
not my thing. Amazing, but amazing nevertheless, yeah, and,
and you like to travel, right? A lot, yes. So what's the most
exciting place you've been scuba diving? Oh, gosh,
that's a hard one, because I think there's a
toss up between Fiji and the Philippines and the Maldives.
You know, they're all amazing in their own way, and yet, Hawaii,
on the island of Oahu, is still my very favorite place to dive.
The clarity of the water is better than anywhere in the
world that I've traveled. So
why scuba diving? What brought when did you start
that?
I started it. Let's see it's getting it's hard
to believe it's been almost 15 years ago now, I was managing a
hotel in Waikiki Beach, and it had been a long process of
buying the hotel, interviewing 180 employees, hiring them all,
training them, doing some renovation. The hotel is a
stunning hotel. It's they've done so much more since, even
since I left 15 years ago, but so Queen Kapiolani is the one of
the most beautiful hotels in Waikiki Beach. And at one point,
you know, I didn't want to stay there because I had other, you
know, still family, and I had rather responsibilities to other
hotels in California, so I didn't stay and then when I went
back to to help support the team, I had a lot of free times
on my hands because they were doing such a phenomenal job. So
I started scuba diving, and that's kind of it's really
simple, but today I do work my scuba diving into my experiences
as a leadership coach. And there's a lot of you know,
spiritual experiences, both with scuba diving and I do a lot of
hiking. I just came back from Spain recently, and, yeah, all
of those trips the last dozen years or so are actually going
to be part of my new Oracle deck, which will be yes next
month. Yes, finished.
Okay, yes, that. That sounds exciting. I want to
know about that. Yeah. So it's, is it? So it's a card deck that
you just will pick one as or is it's not like tarot cards. It's
like, yes, pick a card a day kind of thing and see what it
has to say exactly.
And so an Oracle deck is, is just gives you, it
gives you, like, a suggestion on the direction that you're going
in. And so the my, my deck is called the leader paths Oracle
deck. I'm working on getting it to the printer this week,
actually, and it's 7075, photographs of places I've
traveled in the world and through, like I said, hiking,
scoop. There's some underwater pictures. There are, you know,
just a lot of different, different things that are have a
lot of really strong meaning to me. So I'll be producing some of
the the photographs in artwork that people can hang on their
walls as well. So yeah, you know, but at the end of the day,
it's so each one has a message for your path. So as your path
as a leader in your workplace, your path is leader in your
family. You know, your local church. You know, whatever it
might be, we all need guidance on where our path is going. So I
hope it will be very inspirational to,
Oh, sounds like it? Yes, definitely. So just a
couple of random questions I like to ask. My favorite word is
curiosity, and so I like to ask my guests whether you think
curiosity is innate or learned, and what you are most curious
about today. So two parts to the question. Well, the
first part, I think that part of it is innate,
but but it you can be trained to go, to be more curious. I think
it's a good habit to get in for us to be more curious. And
again, that that comes back to leadership, that comes back to
coaching. I think I've always been a curious person, but I
think my time spent at Berkeley, the Coaching Institute, they
actually teach you about framing questions with curiosity to the
clients that we coach Yes, so that allows me to answer that as
an affirmative on both, both cases. Okay, and then, what am I
curious about today? I'm curious about how I can, how I will
continue to be creative and artistic in this way that I had
never imagined, writing a book, doing this oracle deck, doing
custom workshops for leadership, and especially with right now,
talking to women about self, love, all of those things.
Because I'm curious about where my path is going, right, right?
Because, because it's exciting and it's fun, and I feel like
I'm combining this, the Spirit and of creativity and my heart
of kindness with what I do for a living. So how lucky am I?
Yeah, that's really special. I feel the same
way, in the sense that I'm always talking about gratitude
in terms of the clients that I work with, and how are they
showing gratitude to the people that they work with? Because so
often we just go next and we keep moving, and we don't really
show that appreciation that people need to hear and see
definitely, do Are you a reader or listen like do you like to
read real books still? Or do you read on an on a digital path? Do
you listen to auditory books? What do you do? Do you do
anything? Yeah, I
do a little bit of everything. I kind of mix it
up. I'm not I'm not stuck on one or the other. I think from one
to the next, I still have hard copies. There's, there's a
bookshelf behind me, so yeah, and I haven't done an audible on
my book yet. It's available on Kindle, and it's also on Amazon,
and a soft copy and Barnes and Noble. So I'm, I'm debating
whether I should, should do an audible version of my book,
because I know people have different ways of experiencing.
I know I'm drowning in books. And, yeah, I
don't read them all, you know, yeah, and I haven't decided on
using Audible yet, because that's just one more thing to
have a subscription to and that, you know, anyway. But, and are
you a movie person?
You know what? I don't watch a lot of movies, but
I actually did Sunday, I told myself I had the day off, even
though I was working on my finishing my card deck. I
watched that new wicked movie and at home, and I thought that
was fabulous. I've seen it. I read the book. I read that book
in Okay, oh my gosh. 20 years ago, I saw the performance at
the Pantages in Los Angeles, yeah, and so watching that movie
come to life was was pretty cool. And I wanted to see a
great
message, yeah, okay, I need to see it, but I
don't know if I'm going to get to the theater to see it, but
did it still work on the the big screen at home?
Absolutely. So, so you know, it's I shouldn't
say this. I don't want to give this away, but this is my
perception. So nobody's confirmed this, but this is my
perception that green witch, Elphaba, yeah, she never really
was wicked. She was misunderstood. Okay, yeah, okay.
She has a huge heart of kindness. It doesn't matter that
she's green,
well, and yeah, okay, I must watch it. Actually,
I might go see it this weekend. Thank you. Well, thank you. This
has been delightful. I always like to ask my guests if they
have one piece of wisdom they want to leave with my audience
around business, and then we'll call it a wrap.
Okay, so what comes to mind, first of all, is
your next the next client, or or employee, or might it be
yourself that you look at. So maybe you'll look at yourself in
the mirror, if it's you, or if it's an employee or a client, or
maybe it's a family member, ask them how they're doing today,
and we'll stop and wait for the answer. Yeah, we're all we're
all in too big of a rush, and we need to stop and realize that
the person in front of us, and that might be us, is really
important, and we need to take a moment to listen. That's
great advice. Thank you so much, Tracy. And
where can my audience find you? And I will put it in the show
notes as well,
yeah, absolutely, well, and certainly on LinkedIn.
But the best way to get in touch with me also is just go to my
website, b, u leadership.com and it's B, E, y, o, u
leadership.com there's a place on there where you can book 30
minutes to talk to me. My phone number is on there, email and
all of my other links, like Instagram and YouTube and and
LinkedIn. So okay,
thank you. Thank you so much. Appreciate you a
lot, and appreciate your wisdom. So thanks again, and to my
audience, thank you for being here and remember to stay
connected and be remembered.
Yay.
Here are some great episodes to start with.