Building Better Leaders: A Deep Dive with Kim Ades of Frame of Mind Coaching | RR 277

Kim, Hello everyone, and welcome to this

episode of relationships rule. I have a wonderful guest with me

today, Kim Addis. And Kim and I just met recently, but I feel

like it was so easy to talk to her when we first met that I'm

excited about the interview and getting to know her and letting

you get to know her expertise and her secret sauce, if you

will. Kim is the founder of frame of mind coaching and the

co founder of the journal that talks back. She has been a

pioneer in her field of leadership coaching and thought

mastery for, I think, over 20 years now. But I don't want to

say anymore. I want you to tell me, Kim, I want you to tell my

audience. So what is? Because I know over time, people change

their their focus, or they may change their audience, or what,

what is of interest in, in and the going thing? Let's say so,

what is it that you're doing right now and who are you

serving right now? That's exciting you the most. Okay,

well, first of all, thank you for having me on your

podcast. I'm delighted to be here now. Who are we serving? We

have historically served the, what we call the highly driven

population, and typically they are leaders, executives,

entrepreneurs, and for us, in any industry, in any place in

the world, really, we coach them all. But it's that type, a

personality, the person who has a lot going on, the person who's

the high achiever, the person who always feels like there's

more that they want to achieve, that's our client. But recently,

or instead of the word but, I'll say and recently. I mean, again,

we've we've always coached and trained individuals to learn our

coaching methodology. But recently, we're taking that to a

whole other level. We are now teaching coaches in the world

how to use our approach, our as you say, secret sauce in their

coaching as well. So that's what we're up to. So

that's now more specifically coaching coaches,

right?

So in addition to coaching leaders, executives and

entrepreneurs, we've always coached leaders and taught them

how to coach, but now we're teaching coaches how to use our

very unique approach to coaching so that they can deliver

transformational, phenomenal, off the charts coaching. Yeah,

you, I think one of the taglines on your website

was shift your thinking towards a more fulfilling life. But it's

also shifting and using these tools. And am I right to say

that it's that it's based on your journal, your

job? That's right, that's right. So one of the

things about that, yeah, so when we so like, let's characterize

the people we coach for a minute, they have a few things

in common, right? So number one is they're very isolated. They

have the weight of the world on their shoulders, and they carry

that heavily. But what that also means is they don't trust

everybody with their most intimate, personal challenges or

struggles. So they live very in a very isolated way. They may be

around a lot of people, but that doesn't necessarily mean that

they that they trust everybody with what's truly, deeply

important to them.

Can you stop there for a second, because I

just clarified the isolated. Are they isolated because they're

smarter than everybody else, and they think differently to

everybody else, and are they because they're in the position

that they're in there? Okay, so, so

sometimes it's positional, yeah, positionally

related, right? But what it boils down to is they have a lot

of responsibility, and yes, they delegate, but they feel that at

the end of the day, the buck stops here, and there's not a

lot of people that they can lean on truly to to pick up some of

that burden. And so whatever it is, they spend a lot of time

thinking they don't necessarily share what's happening inside of

them, or

their fears that would show their vulnerability.

Yeah, exactly,

exactly. So, so they're not isolated physically,

but they're isolated maybe intellectually and very often

emotionally. Yes. So that's thing number one. Thing number

two is they are people who have friction with others, and let me

qualify that, they have two kinds of friction. Sometimes

it's obvious external friction, like, you know, they get into

battle with others. Maybe they're raising their voices,

they're very obviously in a state of conflict, right? So

that happens, but more. Often than not, they have friction

that is silent. So other people aren't moving fast enough,

working fast enough. They're not on the same page. They don't

have the same sense of urgency. They don't get it. And so they

they often just hold that in because they have other things

that are perhaps more important, but they see that other people

around them are not rowing in the same direction, and don't

even understand sometimes the direction they're heading in.

And so that causes a lot of internal strife and and so

again, they're ill at ease with that friction, and that could be

professional and or personal as well, right? So you we just see,

like, it's very, very clear that there's this thing going on

outside of them with others. The third thing that we see is that,

again, they're highly driven individuals who have a lot to

achieve, and they're not satisfied. So they have this

sense of Chronic dissatisfaction with where they're at, and so

they feel like we should be further, we should move faster.

What's going on, what's wrong, what's taking so long, what's

wrong with them, what's wrong with me. Maybe now they have a

little bit of self doubt. You know, maybe I'm not cut out for

this. Maybe I'm not the right leader. Maybe somebody else

should fill in. Maybe, you know, I don't have the right team.

Maybe I'm not giving the right orders, whatever it is, right

like they just, they're all over the place. And then last, but

not least, it's a term that I invented. They have something

called slippage. What is slippage? Slippage is when they

let important things slip through the cracks, things like

their health, their sleep, their nutrition, their overall well

being, their friendships, their fun. They're just, you know,

they're not taking care of their lives, and they're letting

really critical things slip through the cracks. So that's

the character that we coach, right? Like, that's that's the

nature of who we coach. And so one of the defining items of

these people is that they need to move fast. They like speed,

yeah, so when they're working with a coach, they don't want it

to take a year to get to where they want to go. They want it to

happen faster. So what we've done is we've created a very

intensive, immersive, very high touch coaching experience that

takes them far in a short period of time. So we assign them to a

coach. I've got a team of coaches and and they start

working with their coach. There's a call every week with

their coach, and we record every call so that they could listen

to the recordings and hear themselves speak. They can hear

what they're saying, how they're saying it. They can start to

become observers of themselves. And so this, the insight they

gather from that process is really, Stark. But then in

between every single call, we also ask them to journal in a

private and secure online journal with their coach every

day. So what happens is, at the beginning of the week, they

receive a journaling question or a journaling prompt and they

journal. And then each time they journal, their coach reads and

responds to the journal and wow. And what happens is that the

coach really, really gets to know their clients, and they're

able to start picking up patterns, patterns of behavior,

beliefs, perspectives, you know, behaviors, all of that. And so

with that information, the coach is equipped to take them far

quickly.

Wow, yeah, that's very intense and and, do you

find that that the, okay, the people that come to you, are

they writers or journalists, journal writers, to begin with,

or are they learning this as they go?

Yeah. I mean, we are all nowadays. We're all texters

and emailers, we're all used to writing, right? So what it is,

is you're writing with someone else. That's it. So don't think

of it as you know anybody who needs to have a writing degree

or a journalism degree or you know that's not what we're

after. We're after a person who's able to write down their

thoughts and experiences. That's it. So just curious

with the the journaling back and forth with

the coach. Are those prompts or questions that the coach puts

out there? Are they individual based on what they've learned

initially from that

question? Yeah, so I love that question. Thank you.

So we have a journey that we take our clients on so we're

asking a specific set of questions designed to extract

specific data, but the data you will supply me is different from

the data anybody else will supply me. So now what happens

is, you know, you give me what I need, and now we're on an

individual journey, right? So there's, you know, yes, the

questions once a week are similar from person to person,

but in between, when you're journaling, now I'm asking you

questions about your specific situation, your specific life.

So there's nothing standardized about this. It's all a very

unique experience for every person that goes through it,

right? Wow,

that's great. And do you match people as best?

Yes, okay,

yes, exactly. So I have an intake call with them,

and I learn about them, what's going on, what are they like? I

get a very strong sense for people very quickly. And then I

think about who would be the best coach for them based on

their experience, their personality, the way they

respond to things, all of that

that's pretty again, that's that's a great

responsibility that you take on, because especially if, and I

know, you coach executives, senior leaders and

entrepreneurs, just right and so it's not so much the the status

of their position, it's the people are people, but in some

cases, if they're they're probably playing paying big

money to do this with you, and it's a big responsibility, so

you have to get a quick win for them, I would imagine. So making

that right fit is important right making

the right fit is very important for them, but it's not

hard to do, and there are many reasons why it's not hard.

Number one is our coaches are phenomenal. Every single one of

them, they're extremely well trained. They're seasoned. And

so if I put you in any one of them, their hands, capable

hands, you're in good hands, but now I can also do a good job of

matching, and I've been doing this for 20 years, so it's very

instinctive at this point, like I can just, I can just know

very, very easily who the right fit would be for each person

that I encounter. And 20 years, like, I've been wrong maybe

three or four times, and we've coached hundreds and hundreds of

people. So

based on you talked about the struggles that

that your your clients have, your typical client has, how do

you how do you see like, what are the the, let's say, three

key thinking strategies that exceptional leaders have or have

to work towards.

Yeah, that's great. So So number one is that they focus

on what they want. And so a lot of times when there's a problem,

what do leaders do? They focus on what's wrong. They focus on

the problem. They focus on why we have a problem. They focus on

all the things that are going wrong. And what we see is

exceptional leaders really focus on what they want and solutions

to problems. So that's thing, number one. Thing number two is

that you're going to think that this is very obvious, but it's

not but exceptional leaders are resourceful in a way that other

people are not. And what I really mean by that is they have

a way of thinking about resources that is different. In

their minds, any resource is accessible to them. They never

say it costs too much we can't afford that. They never think in

those terms. They think, what do we need? I'm going to go get it

and it's out there. So they think there's, there's never a

shortage of money, talent, time. There's no shortage. Everything

is there and everything is at their disposal. And whereas

other people who struggle, leaders, who aren't at that top,

top end of the game, they they think in terms of shortage and

scarcity. And then the last thing that we see is that these

extraordinary leaders are always always challenging their

beliefs. They're always asking themselves. K so I feel like

we're challenged in this department, what are the beliefs

that we have that are causing us to feel this challenge? And

perhaps those beliefs need to be turned around or turned upside

down. So they're the think about their thinking, and they

question whether or not they are thinking in a way that helps

them achieve their goals with ease. So they're constantly, you

know, I wouldn't say having an internal battle, but they're

questioning is that the right way of thinking about what we're

trying to achieve.

So I think that probably what 98% of the people

out there have limited beliefs, and so it's those exceptional

leaders that don't see the world that way. And it is. It's a hard

thing to it can be a hard thing to to change to, or it can be

easy. It's, I don't know, like, I mean, it's, I know that I

limit myself a lot more than I need to. But I also, and I also

think that it's, um, it's pro Oh, what was I just gonna say,

it's probably about. See, it's all tied in with seeing the

world as there isn't competition. There's enough out

there for all of us. Just let's go and get what we need.

Yeah, absolutely. And to be honest, like when, when we

think about the competitive. It a field. They say, Okay, you

play in that ballpark. I'm going to go create a new ballpark.

Yeah, right. So, so competition is fodder for creativity in

many, many ways.

Fantastic. Would you do you ever come across

clients that are non coachable? Of

course, yeah, my mother in laws. One of them,

okay, got it? No. I mean, of course. I mean, just some people

have wrapped their arms around their way of life, their way of

looking at things, and and, and they do it because it's they

feel safer doing that and so, and that's fine, but those

people don't really come to me for coaching, right? Like

they're not lining up outside my door, and they know my style,

they know my approach. You know they come to me because they're

ready to look at the world differently. They're ready for

change, and they're tired of the status quo, and that's why

people reach out to me in particular. That's

must be really rewarding to see the change in

your clients that they want it badly, and then they work with

your your coaches, and they see that change. Do you have a story

that you can share of that transness?

I have so many stories, but I'll tell you one

of my favorites. Um, years ago, I was working with a client, and

he said, I have a referral for you. I want you to coach a very

good friend of mine, but it's very important that you treat

him with kid gloves. And I was a bit surprised, because I'm not,

I don't have kid gloves when I coach. I'm very direct. And I

said, Well, why? Why would you say that? Why would you position

it that way? And he said, Well, he's in his early 30s, and he

has stage four cancer. Oh, wow. So I got on the phone with this,

this young man, and I said, Okay, I have two questions for

you. Question number one is, how long do you have left to live?

And it's a hard question to ask. Like, I felt like I had to,

like, muster up courage to do that, right, especially if you

don't know him, especially if you don't know him. But he he

responded, and I think that question, in and of itself, like

having the courage to ask him, created a connection. Where he

said, who else is going to ask me that a question, right? Like

that. But he said, I'm not sure. I'm guessing I have about a two

year window. I believe that I've already lived longer than I was

meant to live. I'm on all these experimental drugs, and so far,

they've worked, but I don't think they're going to work that

much longer. And so I said, Okay, well, what is it that you

want to achieve as a result of coaching? He said, Well, what I

really want from you is I want you to help me increase my

productivity. And I thought, gee, if I only had two years

left to live, would I be worried about my productivity? Probably

not. And so I said, Well, why is that important to you? He said,

well, because I am an only child of a single mom, and I want to

grow my business and sell it so that I have enough money to

leave behind so she's in a good place. I said, Great. I said,

let me ask you another question. What do you really? Really want

more than anything? He said, Well, what I want is more time,

and I want to travel, and I want to take my mom on a great

vacation, and I want to have a wonderful relationship, and I

want to buy a house, and I want to run a marathon, and I do want

to sell my company, and I want to make sure my mom's in a good

financial place. I said, Well, why don't we do that instead?

And we started to work together, and what I discovered was type A

personality. He owned a financial services valuation

company, and he was the guy who brought every single sale in the

door. He was the guy who looked over every single paper that

went out the door and make made sure every I was dotted and T

was crossed. And I saw he was working really hard. And I said

to him, You know what, we need to talk about hiring people. And

he said, I can't hire people. I can't afford to hire people. But

in my mind, I thought, your life is at stake. You can't afford

not to hire people like you can't keep going like this. I

thought to myself, my job is to help him lower his stress. I

was just gonna say stress must be much higher

while he's working. Yeah, exactly,

so that he could have a fighting chance with those

experimental drugs, so we work together. He ended up hiring

quite a few people, right? We helped him see how that was

possible. But now it's eight years later.

Oh my goodness. Eight years later, he

still has stage four cancer, and he's still fighting

the fight. But he took his mom on two great vacations. He got

married, he sold half of his company and then bought it back.

He bought a house. He ran a marathon. In fact, he climbed

Mount Kilimanjaro, and he just had a baby,

Mazel, tov. Oh, my god, yeah. Oh, that is a

beautiful story.

It's a beautiful. Sorry, but what we needed to do

was help him think a little bit differently about his business

and what was possible, because at the rate he was going right,

he was holding the whole entire company on his shoulders by

himself.

Yeah, it was about thinking differently about

his company and his priorities.

That's right, yeah, that's right. His

life is so short. I went to so short. I was at a

celebration of life yesterday, and it was for someone who, you

know, had lived a good life. It was actually his 80th birthday

yesterday would have been and he had been struggling with

Parkinson's for several, several years, and it finally got the

best of him. But when they did the, you know, the video and and

the speakers talking about his his life, I mean, he'd had a

wonderful life, you had to celebrate it. There was that was

all you could do. He retired at 47 because he sold, he and his

partners had a company Ticketmaster in Canada, and they

sold, wow, yeah. So he didn't have to work anymore, and so he

and his family had a wonderful life. But you know, priorities

when you're sick are completely different, and so you have to

see things differently.

That's right, you have to see things differently. Yeah,

thank

you. That's a great, a great story to share.

So let's sidetrack for a minute before we end this conversation.

Because I love talking to interesting people, and I and I

think because you, what you do, matters so much in in that it's

not the volume so much. It's the lives that that you know, it's

the individual life changing things that can happen, and were

you, were you? Has your career always been coaching, or did you

have a previous

No, I've only been coaching for the past 20 years.

Before that, I used to own a software company, and actually

it was a simulation based assessment company, so we were

building assessments, or simulation based assessments,

before the technology was really ready for us. Yeah, right. So we

were on the leading edge of that technology, but that really

informed a lot of what we do now. And because what we did was

we're trying to figure out who is the top performer. What

differentiates top performer from top performers from other

people. What is it? Is it their personality? Is it their IQ? Is

it their experience, their education? What is it and and

what we discovered really led us well, led me to starting the

company that I run now, what we discovered is that top

performers, no matter what the industry, no matter what the the

level in an organization, have one very strong thing in common.

They have a very high level of emotional resilience. And what

that means is, when they experience failure, when they

have a blow, they don't stay down very long. They don't take

it personally as much as most. They don't take the right and

what they do is they get up quickly, but they also find a

way to leverage that adversity, to turn it into an advantage

somehow. And so that piece of information is really critical.

When you think about how we coach, what we do is we help

people look at their moments of adversity, their challenges, and

we help them reconfigure how they feel and how they reacted

and responded to that experience or event. And we strengthen

people. We build up their mind muscle so that when they do

experience adversity in the future, they get up faster.

It reminds me of Napoleon Hill's book Think and

Grow Rich. I mean, yeah, examples that he used in there,

which, of course, was written in 19, what, 37 and it's still like

brilliant today. So what I'm thinking from what you just

said, is that you went from left brain business, like the tech

side of things, to the right brain, in a way, because it's

more about the people. It's more about, yeah, right. So

for me, though, it was always about the people,

because, you know, when I was running the software business, I

wasn't the software developer, right? We had a team of people

that did that was my conception. Yeah, it was my conception. I

had this idea that that we could build simulations and that it

could help people, and I so I was like, I had this idea, but I

certainly didn't execute by myself. That is for sure,

fair enough, the leader's mind. There you go.

That's, that's awesome. Are you coached today?

Am I coached? I have hired so many different coaches

right now I'm working with someone, and we have interesting

relationship, where I coach her and she coaches me, but I'm

always, always looking for an amazing coach. I'm always in the

market for an amazing coach. And. Um, and so I believe great

coaches need great coaches. Yes, that's fair.

Um, okay, so just a couple of a sideline things.

So how do you today? Because there's so many options, how do

you today, ingest your information or learning? Is it

is it podcasts? Is it reading traditional books? Is it ebooks?

Is it videos?

Is how do you I definitely, I read a lot of

books. I read a lot of journals. Spend a lot of time reading

journals, yes, so I'm reading it interestingly, right? So I'm

reading The life stories of of my clients, who are all

extremely successful, highly driven individuals. So I

weirdly, I get I learn a lot by hearing what they're doing, what

they're up to, what their challenges are, but what's going

on in their businesses. I learn a lot directly from them. You

mean their journals? That yes, their

journals, yeah,

I read a lot of articles in, you know, online

magazines, newspapers, that kind of thing. I watch videos, of

course. I listen to sometimes podcasts. But I find I don't

have all the time that I want to do that,

right? So if you were reading, would you be

reading biographies? Then,

no, sometimes I read like I read, obviously, I read

personal development books, I read that kind of stuff. But

sometimes you just need to chill out, right? Always on go, and

sometimes you just need a little bit of downtime to watch things

like American Idol. I got it. You just need you just brain

needs a break. And so I make sure that I sometimes get some

break

time. It's so funny. We were watching

something last night, actually, just, you know, we've been to

this service yesterday and everything. And I find it when I

sit down after dinner to watch something other than CNN or

whatever I'm watching that way, because it's that's always a

story these days in in the States in particular, but I fall

asleep, I doze off because I'm sitting doing nothing, and

that's very hard for me to do, and my brain goes off, and then

I fall asleep, and Vern says, I'll say, oh, did you enjoy that

show? It just happened. And then

I'm off, you know? And then you're up, and then you

can't sleep at night, right? No, not too early anyway. Yeah, I

get it. Now, my husband is an avid fan of jeopardy, so I see

we watch it every night. Yeah, we watch it together. And I'm

not getting better at answering the questions, but it's

definitely not my strength. You know, everybody has a different

kind of intelligence. Yeah, I am better with intuitively

understanding people, and He's way better at jeopardy. Well,

I find I'm quite intuitive usually with people

and but I love Jeopardy. I've always been that trivia person.

It's crazy, and sometimes I wonder how all that stuff is

still in there, and other times I think I can't get it out fast

enough I get it. Yes, yeah. Interesting. Thank you for

sharing that. And lastly, I am well, almost Lastly, I like to

ask my guests about curiosity. It's my favorite word and two

part question. One, do you think curiosity is innate or learned?

And second, what are you most curious about these days, which

you may have answered already, but feel free,

do I think curiosity is innate or learned? I do. I

think that it's learned,

okay, okay. I

think that it's learned. And the reason I think

that it's learned is because I can see the people that I've

worked with, the people around me, my own children, I have five

of them. Yes, that's another topic, and that we, we have

taught like, I am remarried, okay, I'm remarried. So I came

into my marriage with two children, and my husband came in

with three, okay, and my kids are have always been extremely

curious, because they have two parents who are extremely

curious. But But what I saw, I have seen, is that my husband's

children have learned to be curious interesting, right? They

have learned to be interesting and ask a lot of questions

exactly. I don't think curiosity is something that we're just

like. I think it's something we're taught, okay, that's good.

I think it's something that we're influenced. You know, the

people around us influence us to be curious.

Okay? I mean, there's more conversation there,

but I just like people to give me their answers, yeah, right or

wrong. It's just somebody's,

you know, super interesting question. Now I'm

gonna have to go think about it. Yeah and see if I actually

answered correctly. But that's my best. Yeah,

there's no right or wrong. I mean, it's just that

whole thing started for me when I was just starting my podcast.

And I had and I started it partly because I read this book

called a curious mind by Brian Grazer. Do you know who Brian

Grazer is? I don't Brian Grazer, Ron Howard. Do you know who Ron

Howard is? Yeah. So they're the partners in imagine

entertainment. And Brian Grazer is more of a producer, but he's

also a director as well. And his his he started with splash. Do

you remember that movie? Yeah, yeah. With Tom Hanks first big

hit, and then he did Friday Night Lights on TV, which I

loved. He's done a beautiful mind with Russell Crowe. He's

got, I mean, he's he and Ron Howard are partners, so there's

a million but he grew up being curious and asking questions and

going to interview people when he was a kid and and I just

found it fascinating, because that's what I do. I love to find

out about people. So that was my first take on that second part

of the question is, what are you most

I will say this though. I will say that I think

that great coaches are extremely curious, and they ask questions

that seem to be off limits and seem to be outside of the range

of the conversation. They go to places with their questions that

are unexpected interesting and open doors that have never been

opened before.

I love that, because even in my podcast

experience, sometimes I'll ask a question and people will say,

Oh, that's I've never been asked that before, or that's really

interesting, and it's just whatever's come from inside me.

So that's where I think the intuition is part of it as well.

But being brave enough to ask certainly sometimes those

questions is, yeah, okay, good point. So what are you most

curious about these days?

Right now, I'm on a quest to help coaches do a much

better job at coaching, and so I am learning about how to reach

coaches. I'm learning about marketing in a way that I've

never done before, and I'm curious about that. And I'm

curious about really, there are so many coaches out there who

are who are trying to grow their businesses and struggling, and

I'm curious about how to help them. I'm curious about how to

reach them. I'm curious about how to make a difference in the

coaching industry, and not only in the lives of my clients. So

that's what I'm curious about right now.

That's fantastic. I mean, there's so many pseudo

coaches out there too, right? So, I mean, they have, in your

opinion, is it first and foremost, they have to have some

formal coaching education.

I mean, there are many, many coaches who have

formal coaching education, and perhaps that equips them a

little bit. But I don't think that's the be all and end all of

a great coach. I think it's far, far more than that, far, far

more than that. And I, I will say that I do not think that

coaches have what they need in terms of they are not equipped,

necessarily, to deliver the kind of coaching that is

transformational and like life impacting. They don't. They

don't have what they need in order to make that kind of

impact.

So that begs another question, I can't help

but ask, which is, do you think age has anything to do with

being a good coach? No, okay, because I always feel that, you

know, if someone is older, they're usually wiser. They've

had more experience than the young person. But you

know, my 25 year old daughter could probably do a

much, much better job of coaching than most coaches who

are much older.

So what? Why do you say that just her

personality? Well,

she's very curious, so that's one thing. So going back

to the curiosity thing, and she has strong instincts about

people. And what I mean by that is that when you talk to

someone, you can very easily tell whether or not what they

are saying serves them or doesn't. And so she's capable of

pursuing the path, following the the lead, if you will. Right?

Yeah, the uncover what needs to be uncovered. But when I say

that coaches are not equipped, and what I'm really saying is

I'm not distinguishing one personality from another or one

age from another. What I'm saying is that they don't have a

process or a system or a methodology that enables them to

coach. Really powerfully and easily.

Okay, okay, so that's a good place to wrap

because I think that if anyone wants to find out more about

what your work is all about and how you help coaches, where are

they going to find you? Frame of Mind coaching.

Frame of Mind coaching.com best place to find

me. Reach out to me, Kim at frame of mind coaching com, and

on our website, actually, if you're at all curious about

journaling, if you want to journal by yourself, or if you

want to pick up some journaling prompts for your clients,

whatever it is, we have some really great journaling prompts

on our website. So Go, go find them. Fantastic.

Thank you, Kim, thank you for being here. I love

talking to great people, and it doesn't matter to me what what

industry they're in or whatever. I just people. It's just for me.

It's

about,

can I resonate? Can I be curious enough about what they do and

who they are? And I haven't even talked about having five kids.

So are they all grown up now?

They're all my youngest is 25 and she's just

smack in the middle of doing her PhD. That's right. I

think you had mentioned that when we spoke

before. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you to my

audience, as usual, for being here. If you like what you

heard, please reach out to Kim and find out more about what she

does, and leave a review if you like what you heard that's

always appreciated. Thank you, and remember to stay connected

and be remembered. You.