Build Stronger Connections through Active Listening with Deb Porter

Deb, hello everyone and welcome my guest

today is Deb Porter, a really dear friend of mine, I believe.

And even though we haven't known each other that long, I feel

like we have, and I think that's a tribute to her communication

skills, and in in in particular, listening, alright, this is

Deb's Bailey wick. I love that word and not, not used very

often. So first of all, welcome to the show, Deb.

Thank you so much, Janice. I'm excited to be here,

my pleasure, and so excited to have you. So in

your in your bio, you talk about, you think that soft

skills need to be reframed or re coined as essential skills, and

I totally agree with you. Back in the day, when I was working a

contract position for a long time as a trainer in the

telephone company, I used to teach soft skills, and those in

that context were telephone, courtesy, customer service,

things, listening was one of the things that was part of my my

course that I taught, and how to deal with difficult customers

and all these things. How can we say these are soft skills. They

are so totally essential to be able to work, communicate and

and, you know, treat people well. They're very, very

important. And so I know that in your company, I want you to tell

me about how this came about for you and how the focus is in

hold, hearing out life drama, which is the name of your

company, has become your mission. And so talk to me about

that. Oh my goodness. Tell my viewers about why should it be

an essential skill? Talk to me about that.

Well, first of all, I don't know if your listeners

might know, but in 1969 that's actually from the army, from the

military. That's where the the term soft skills was coined. And

so, yes, so I actually researched that, because I was

like, I need to know, where did this come from, and why, and why

has it stuck? And so I think because it was, you know, a

government term. And, you know, across our nation, it really

spread, and it dug into our to our frame of business. And I

just feel like what you said so beautifully in your example,

from you know, your earlier position, that communication is

life altering in all aspects of the business, whether it's in

customer service or in in sales or or whatever. So, yeah, how

did I so? How did I end up here? My background and training is

actually as a United Methodist pastor. I have a 96 hour master

divinity degree with a specialization in care and

counseling. That's where I get the the knowledge and the

authority to do what I do. And then, of course, through my

life, I've built upon that. I'm now 52 and I was working at a

funeral home. When I had the idea for my business, the

funeral home changed the compensation package they were

offering, and I was like, Okay, if I can do anything in my life

right now, what is it that I really want to do? And what came

to me as I was holding my towels was really, what if I just

listen? What if I just listen? I mean, it's so basic and so

human, but that's, that's kind of me, and that's who I am. I'm,

I'm really down to earth. And so, yeah, so I built a business

around listening,

amazing, really. But listening isn't just

listening. There. There are many ways that we listen or don't

listen. So Can you expound on that a little bit?

So a lot of times, people think that listening

starts with the other person, and what I teach is it does not

listening starts with you, and you have to come into a

conversation calm and ready to hear. And I think that's the

piece that most people don't get or and it can throw them off,

because if you haven't taken the time to be calm and centered at

the beginning of an interaction, then you're not able to stay

focused and clear through, throughout so

well, I would say today, what comes to mind when

you say that is, it's we make it so much harder for ourselves

today, for ourselves today with that exact example, because the

minute we sit down at a at a meeting or whatever, our phones

on our desk or on the table, and that's a distraction from the

word go. And I watched a great Simon Sinek video one time about

cell phones and and, and he said something like, and don't think

that because you turn your phone upside down on the table that it

makes any difference, your phone does not belong there. You know,

in that meeting, and we all do it. I did it last night. We I

was at a dinner thing, which was a networking event, and I saw

that some few of the other girls had put their phone out there.

Because sometimes, like I, I use it as an example to show. To

this LinkedIn tool that I use with the with the QR code that

people have, and I want to share it with them if it comes up,

but, and I don't have business cards anymore, because I use my

phone as that, but, but it's not right, because it's distracts us

from listening, from what I know you call them, what I know to be

active listening. Yes, right? Yeah, exactly,

yeah. So active. So what do we mean when we're

talking about active listening? What does that exactly mean? So

active listening is the art of fully engaging both with content

and emotion. Let's to do the definition. That's my

definition. The I'll say it again, the art of fully engaging

with the content and the emotions. So I think a lot of

times, I've had questions come back from people and they're

saying, you know, this person just keeps going on and on and

on and on and on. I just don't get why. They don't understand

that I'm hearing them. And what I offer is are, are you making

sure to reflect back to them the feeling of what they're saying?

Because you you're getting the content, but unless they

understand that the feeling is also heard, they're not going to

be able to move on. So and then I see light bulbs come on. They

go, Oh no, I didn't actually well.

And also they that kind of person finds it

difficult to not interrupt, but to get into the flow of that

conversation, they let the person continue and continue and

continue. And sometimes people do that because they're nervous

or because they because the person that hasn't drawn right

hasn't been drawn in or whatever. So I think it takes

both parties for sure. But you you talked about you don't know

if you're being heard. And I think there's a difference

between hearing and listening 100% Yeah. Okay, so I just

wanted to clarify that, because I could hear you but not have

listened to anything you said. I remember when my daughter, one

of my daughters, was was little, and I was working and and I was

always, you know, distracted because I had to get lunches

made, or I had to get the dishes done, or I had to get dinner

made, or whatever. And that's the time after school between,

you know, when you're preparing dinner, when the kids will come

to you and want to share something with you, and you make

the mistake quite often of listening while you're doing

something else, but you're not really listening, so you miss

it, right? And it's not fair to the child. And I think I

remember, I think one time my daughter said to me, I'll tell

you later when you when, when I think you're listening, you

know? And then the light bulb goes on there, too, right? It's

like, oh, wait, I need to have full attention when I'm talking

and listening with my or having a conversation with my child.

That's so important, right? More than any of these business

things, as far as I'm concerned, but it's one of those examples,

right? Well, and

I think it happens in business too. I can give you

an example from the funeral home. I experienced a colleague

who was frustrating me, and I finally it escalated to the

point where I felt I needed to go speak to the manager. I was

going to explode, which is very rare for me. Like, imagine how

extreme this was, because it was pretty rare for me. And so I

went and knocked on his door, and he was doing something, and

I said, I need some I need some of your time to talk about a

thing. Do you have time to do that? And he was like, typing

away doing something else he's like, but he, he was able to

say, give me one minute to finish this, and then I'll be

able to focus on you. And then he really did. He he shifted his

whole body language, everything he did let me know, okay, you

now have my full attention, and let's, let's really hear this.

And that's really powerful, because as a manager, he needed

to hear how to present, yeah, so. But you know, if he had just

said, Oh, well, you know what? What is it? And continued to

type his message, which he had done other times in the past,

and it was the way I framed it. I need your attention right now.

My experience with that was different, so I think managers

really need to tune in, pay attention. I mean, I think

parents too. There's not that we ever want to just ignore, but

really know those important we don't want to miss those

important moments ever well. And

we're teaching that, that we're teaching that

way of doing things too. If we show that we're paying attention

fully, then they will learn to do the same, right? And I know

that when it comes to an old tool, the telephone, which I

still love to use, because that was my first go to when I was

first starting out in business, showing my age now, but the

telephone, and I still love the telephone, and when I call

somebody, and sometimes I do, sometimes I get a prompting to

call somebody, like I'm on LinkedIn and I'm looking at

something, and I see that they're online, or I so possibly

at their desk, and I'll just look and see if there's a phone

number, or if I you know. Um, I don't know. I just get a

prompting to call someone, but when I do, and I and if they

answer, the first thing I always say is, thank you so much for

picking up the bone, because it's such a rare thing. Although

I think it's coming back, I really do. However, when they

do, I do ask them, Do you have a couple of minutes? Because if

they don't, I'm not going to start rambling on, right?

Because then they're really not going to like it and they're not

going to listen. So that's, that's the key, right? Okay, so

you have the privilege of, in your work, listening to many

personal dramas through your platform. What are some common

themes that you've noticed in the stories that people share,

and how have these impacted your perspective on relationships?

Because, you know, I'm all about relationships.

Yeah, so going to the B to C side of the business,

I'll shift shift my mindset a little bit the the common theme,

there's a lot of fear of judgment among people. And a lot

of people are coming and saying, you know, I just really couldn't

talk to my family about this. They wouldn't understand. Or I,

I knew they would give me advice when that's really not what I

need. Those, those two things are very common, on the person

the drum, yeah, on the personal side, on the drama side. Yeah,

okay, and yeah, is

it? Is it easy? Do you believe then? Because I

do that, it's easier sometimes to talk to a stranger than it is

to talk to someone who's really close and has a bias already?

Yeah, I think there's a place for both. And we

need both. We're humans. We need relationships, as you well know.

Yeah, so, but there are times that things come up and they're,

you know, family, friends or co workers, are too close to the

problem, like they're involved in it, or worse, they really are

the problem, and you can't talk to them about them about it.

You've already tried, and there hasn't been a resolution yet,

and it's still a little bit stuck. And so having the

opportunity then to really talk that through can be so

beneficial?

Okay, let's shift it to the business side. Now a

little bit. How do you think listening and empathy skills,

essential for your platform, translate into stronger

professional relationships, especially in leadership or team

dynamics? Let

me give you an example from a team training

that I did. The gentleman asked the question, how do I offer

empathy to the CEO who I just think is expletive deleted? And

I was like, well, that's great. That's a great question. How do

you do that? Like, what do you what do you think it's like in

his role right now? And so we really started to just think

about, have, have you had an opportunity to interact with

him, very much on a personal level? Have you Do you know much

about what the pressures are in his life, in his role? And I

started to offer questions and further, like develop that, and

kind of develop a persona of of a guy that he really hadn't seen

as a person. He saw him as this thing, but he didn't understand

that he might be responding as a as a result of the pressures he

felt in in the role, and he might actually be trying to

protect this gentleman. And he was missing that. He wasn't even

seeing that. And so we can develop empathy by really

looking all the way around what, what it is that they're

presenting us what, and then starting to wonder, okay, well,

how,

what are they presenting? What

are they exactly? Yeah, well, and that can get

tricky, because what you don't want to do is make assumptions

about people that's that's never better, but asking questions and

getting you know, curiosity, I know, is one of your things,

yeah, and so I think that's super important. When we get

curious and we we suspend our judgment a little bit, and we

start to look all the way around the problem, then we can get

somewhere, somewhere new and different, and have empathy,

exactly as you said, for for someone else that it's a

struggle with.

Okay? So as someone who listens to life's

many dramas. How do you handle your own emotional balance while

being so involved in others experiences?

So as I stated at the beginning, I am a spiritual

person. So that's that's a part of who I am and what I do. And

so I have a very strong meditation practice that I start

my morning with, and I understand that if I don't take

care of me, I don't have anything to pour out of so

before this conversation, you may have noticed that I was into

the Zoom Room five minutes ahead of time, and so I was already

doing some centering things for myself before this conversation

to make sure I was at my best to be able to present to you and

your audience something that was really powerful,

perfect. Thank you. So what are your hopes for

the future of hold hearing out life drama? I know I think

you've got some exciting projects or collaborations on

the horizon, anything you'd like to share with us?

Oh my goodness. So I'm really excited about the

part. Partnerships with lawyers that we've got started, and the

whole concept around that is, you know, lawyers are went into

it because they wanted to uphold the law and help people and but

as I understand their background and training, they were taught

the law, but they weren't necessarily taught the emotional

intelligence skills, and so a lot of them got thrown into the

deep end without knowing how to do the active listening and the

emotional intelligence piece is really required. And they can

feel really overwhelmed by all of that. It can feel like, for

example, one, one woman wrote, you know, I just spent the last,

I don't know, six months, nine months, on this woman's case,

and I wrote 85 I think it was 85 emails. It was a ridiculous

amount. And, you know, answering, showing up in court,

doing all the things, and she won and and the Google review

that she left was that I did a good job. Like, what, what do

these people want from me? And what, what people want from you

is really that active listening and that emotional intelligence,

and when you present that, that's what's really going to

connect and give you that excellent review. Yeah, for

sure. Okay, so

we're talking about a specific type of

attorney here, or lawyer, a divorce and family lawyer, okay,

and, and I know exactly what you're talking about. They, they

can come across as very stiff or very left brain, all left brain,

right? You don't see any emotion. But now I forgot what I

was going to say. What was I going to say? Oh, that is the, I

don't know. There's a fine line right between them, having to be

in control for you when you're having all the emotional upset

about what you're going through, but that empathy piece again,

come needs to be there. You know, I can know you're

listening to me, but I don't know that you actually care, or

I'm just another case number. So that's the important piece for

me. I think there, and I've been through through that, so I I

totally identify. But do you find that the lawyers or

attorneys that you're that are coming your way are female, or

are they male and female?

At this time, I see a lot more interest on the how,

on, on the male side, I would say it's probably, uh, 7525 75%

male. It's, it's strongly leaning that way in terms of the

business. It also strongly leans that way in terms of my, the

personal side of my business, that is entirely female. Um,

that's, but that's way more skewed 97%

Wow. Okay, yeah, okay,

okay, so let's just elaborate on that, just a little bit, because

I think it's a great partnership. So if not not

saying I have divorce attorneys as my audience, but one never

knows there may be somebody out there listening. But what would

you say are the key benefits of partnering with someone like you

to support their clients beyond the legal framework?

I think that the first benefit is, of course, the

calm mind. Because if, if a client's able to have a

conversation with myself or one of my colleagues and really be

heard, they'll be able to come into the meeting with you with a

clear mind, and instead of presenting all of this having

that emotional dysregulation, they'll be able to to create

that more quickly and maintain it throughout.

Do you think that is part of your work then going

to be or is it working with their clients, with the with the

actual client, or is it strictly working with the attorney to

help them with the skills they need to be a better divorce

lawyer. Let's say,

Well, if the attorney is is open to learning

that, yes, 100% then then that mentoring is open and available.

But the actual offer on the landing page right now is

specifically combining our ebook along with the listening

appointments for their clients. Got it? Okay?

So I something, I ask people a lot, because I

remember talking, or I told you, I taught listening as part of

the cus the telephone, courtesy that I taught, and it was used,

it was mostly around the telephone, right? Because it was

the telephone company that I worked for, so we did a lot of

telephone training, and I had a book and account I didn't find

it again. It's in my shelf somewhere about active

listening. And the very first thing that the guy talks about

is the the acronym for the word or the an anagram for the word

listen. Do. You know, you probably know it the anagram for

the word listen.

I don't actually silent. I have heard that

actually now that you say that, I'm like, Oh yeah, light bulb,

though, isn't that? Like,

yes.

How did that happen? Like, that's like,

that's just so interesting to me, just that whole concept,

because when you're listening, you need to be silent. And I

don't get it. I like, how did that happen to me? That's just a

quirk and that somebody noticed it, you know? I

think it's the universe playing with us.

Actually,

there are no accidents right there. Okay? I

just thought that was kind of fun. So do you have, and this is

putting you on the spot, but you can say no if you don't. But do

you have any a story of somebody that you, that you know really,

that you really helped and taught what they needed, that

sent them on their way a better person. Oh, it was so great,

because I love that you asked this question because

I had a conversation actually, with a mentee last night. We

happened to connect again, and she said, Oh my gosh, Deb, I was

using the skills that you taught me just today at the end of her

work day she had had. So she's a sales professional, and she

takes inbound calls for a health health company, health health

company selling products. And she ended up on a call with a

very irate client who had been mistreated by one of her

colleagues, and was they were very, very angry, and she said

that she applied absolutely everything I had taught her in

the conversation. And at the end, the person said, can I just

work with you directly? Can I just, can I just have your Can I

have your direct line and just do all my sales through you? And

she said, and debit, and debit only took 10 minutes. It only

took 10 minutes. And I was like, yes, that's that's the power of

listening. This is what this is what it is people. And it's just

so fun and so beautiful. And she was so happy, because, as she

applies it in her work, she understands now she doesn't have

to fix people's problems. She She understands because before,

when we started working she had all of this weight that she was

carrying, and she was like, dragging their problems along

with her. Like, you don't have to do that. Don't do that.

There's a better way. Let me show you how. So anyway, we work

together. She learned a lot of things. She applies it now, and,

yeah,

it's good. That's amazing. Okay, so that you need

to help me here, because customer service and customer

service issues just really rile me up when they're when I don't

get good customer service, because I used to teach it, so I

right, and it's so different today than it was okay, and

nobody seems to care. Because you can't find you can't talk to

anybody in so many sorry, in so many instances, you can't talk

to anybody. You have to, you know, talk online, chat online

or email, which drives me crazy. I want to talk to someone, so

they're great. When they when you want to buy something,

they'll talk to you. But when you want to fix something, they

really okay. So I've had this ongoing issue with my cable

company, Shaw, and I will say Shaw, which is here locally, but

it was just bought by they just merged with another company, and

the service has gone down the tubes. And when you do finally

get hold of somebody, you want them to care. They may not be

able to fix the problem themselves, but you just want

them to care, not real off the the response that they've got

written on a piece of paper that says, I'm so sorry that you've

had this. I don't get, you know, don't give me that just right,

right? So how do you deal with that? What do you do when you

come up against that? Because I'm ready to kill so I have to,

you know, I have to, first of all say to them, Look, I know

it's not your fault. I know you're reading from here, or

you're doing this because you're and you're being recorded, but I

just want somebody to help me.

That's where the story of the thrashed potatoes

in my family came from. So I actually had a really bad so my

husband was sick. We're now divorced, but my husband was

sick for very sick for eight years, and I had an experience

where I was trying to resolve a medical issue for him that was

so frustrating. It was incredibly frustrating. And I

was also fixing, trying to fix dinner and care for my kids

while I was caring for the sick man, and at the end of the call,

I thrashed the potatoes. I didn't match them. I thrashed

them. And so now it's a whole joke among our family. Anyway,

yeah, so how do I deal with it? Obviously, much like you, the

frustration grows, right? Because it's before you ever get

to the person. You're already dysregulated because you're

frustrated because you had to push crap. Was it three or was

it? Is it actually a number two issue, like, which, like trying

to understand their system so and then when you finally do get

a person, sometimes they disconnect. I've had that happen

that's incredibly, oh man, don't start on that. That's really,

really, yeah, you know, those, those people that pass the hot

potato, that's what I call it in my trainings like, you know,

like, hot potato, hot potato, hot potato. Somebody take the

time. Doesn't take long. Everybody thinks it's going to

take this long time to deal with this angry person. It doesn't.

It doesn't take a long time. It takes knowing what to do and how

to do it in a kind, compassionate way, to share, to

share some a little bit of empathy and and be honest and

authentic like and you know, managers need to be telling

people it's okay if you don't know the answer, send you know

that it's okay if you don't know the answer. And so this is part

of, you know, again, you've done training for teams. I've that's

part of what I'm doing now, training teams. How do we

deescalate these dragons that, come on, that come on, and it's

because it's an art. It is.

I mean, I finally, after three or four or

five times of waiting on hold at least an hour and a half. One

time 30 minutes, another time 30 minutes, and I can't stay. I

gotta go. I got things to do, and then I finally decided to

call the department that renegotiated my contract with

me, rather than the customer service department, because they

were real quick. So I did, and they answered, and I went, This

is amazing. I said, very interesting. And the guy said,

but you're in the wrong department. I said, I know, I

know I'm in the wrong department because I can't get through to

the right department. And the guy ended up being quite nice

about it. And he said, I'll transfer you. I said, Nope,

don't transfer me, and not unless you're going to stay on

hold until I get somebody right, because I'm not like. He said,

Listen. He said, If I transfer you to the customer service

department, you'll get through fairly quickly because you've

come from another department. I said, you're kidding. He said,

No, it's just the way it is. So I said, Okay, he transfers me, I

get through in two minutes. Wow. I'm like, I don't believe it.

What am I going to do next time? I'm not going to call customer

service. I'm going to call there and do the same thing again.

Because I can't believe that was so ridiculous. So yeah, but then

I finally got some satisfaction, because this girl did care, and

she did listen, and she, you know, assured me that she would

stay with me till my problem was solved. But the when you get so

frustrated, the first person that gets you gets all of that,

yes, they do. Yeah. So yes,

yes, they do. And it's the wise person, the one on

the front line that's getting that they have to understand

that it's not theirs to carry and it's theirs to do the best

they can in that moment, and believe that by doing that, they

have helped, and that's what matters

Well, and that's, yeah, sorry, go ahead. That's

how you go home at the end of the day and feel

satisfied. That's how you go home at the end of the day, and

you're not bringing all of this junk home with you through the

front door to your kids, yeah, or your dog, or whatever.

And a good job in what you do. Right? I think

today, though, here's a question for you, last question before I

get to something else, do you notice a difference when you're

training teams today, then maybe a few years ago, because,

because of the digital world, because things have changed so

much, because we can't get through to anybody and all of

that, and because of the generation that we're working

with in often younger Things are different. I feel like they

don't have the same empathy skills, the same listening

skills today,

yeah, since I've started my business, I've I have

created the core, which is what I teach, and the emotional

intelligence pieces are kind of baked into that and for me, and

what I found is, when you really listen to where someone's

starting from the interaction, that's where it's rich, right?

Starting starting from that, just like I talked about with

this other client, right? Started from where she was,

helped her get to where she needed to go. And just depends

on where they're starting from, what they really need from, from

me, and you see a

resistance at all with the younger people, or do

you see a tuning out at all because they everything's very

quick today, right? And so they might be listening to what

you're talking about. They're on their phone at the same time.

Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fun, because they,

they got permission for that when they were in school, and

so, yeah, they're, they're bringing it into the workplace

now, and that's a whole thing. Yes, indeed. Sorry, teachers out

there, if there's a teacher listening in, I don't know. I

don't know. Just, just

mandated here where I live, that phones aren't

allowed in the classroom anymore. But there's no

consistency about how it's being regulated. So it's going to be a

disaster. But anyway, it's another story. But yeah, so, so

do you find a difference then?

Yeah, there. There really is I. I attempt, in all

of my teaching and all of my training to be short and quick

and to make it. You know, it doesn't take a long time to

learn what I teach. It just takes practice and intention. I

really believe that, and because I do that, I really feel like

it's applicable to any any person of any age. Only Did you

know, only 2% of people, at least in the US have have ever

had any active listening training at all. 2% isn't that

astounding. It's not taught in our schools. Only 2% the that

kind of just blows my mind. That statistics probably about eight

years old, now nine years old, so I maybe it's gone up. I would

like to believe that I'm a part of that change, and I'm going to

change that a lot. But yeah, oh,

wow, yeah, that's that goes back to I'll tell you

when I think you're listening, because it's true. Yeah, that's

amazing. That's very sad, actually. Okay, this is so much

fun. I could talk about this forever, because I think it's

such an important skill and to do properly and and, you know,

even like, I have a little granddaughter who's the light of

my life, and she's just starting school, and all of the sort of

preschool training and the you know, the things that you teach

them when they're toddlers and whatever at home, if we can

teach them to listen and to act accordingly, or to learn

something by listening, as opposed to by seeing as well.

They get those that practice and so on. It's an ongoing thing.

It's a skill that we have to learn. And that's really

interesting that you that there's only 2% did you say 2%

Wow.

Okay,

amazing. Okay, how can people get hold of you?

And then I've got one last question for you. How can people

share?

Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn. Of course you can find

me there, and if you want to send me an email, I'd love to

read it, info at hearing at life drama.com,

and I will put those that that on the show

notes. Okay, two last questions. I lied. First one, you know that

I love curiosity. It's my favorite thing. Two part

question. One, do you believe that curiosity is innate or

learned? And part two, what are you most curious about today?

I believe curiosity is innate. I believe we're born

with it. I believe a lot of us were taught away from it and

taught not to be that. Yeah, I'll leave that there. And then

the second part of your question one

more time was, what are you most curious about

these days?

I just love following. The next question. I

just love following. So like this morning, I was working with

my business partner, Linda, and we were writing blog posts for

LinkedIn, and she had an idea, and it led to another question,

another question, another question. I just love to follow.

That that's what brings me so much joy and allowing myself,

because that's really if you think about it, that's how we

started. That's how we were as kids, and we just allowed

ourselves to follow that. And so that's really what I'm about

working on now in my life, is allowing myself the joy of

reconnecting with that, because that's really the moment,

really, is what? Yes, yes, being in the moment, following that,

allowing that, yeah, that's all really, really rich and good. I

don't think it's any a curiosity, necessarily about any

one thing. It's just about allowing it all to be there.

Well, in my experience of you, you are very

good listener, and you pay attention to the details, and

you're also a very good connector, and that's very

that's a very special skill, and much appreciated, because I've

met some interesting people through you. So that's really,

really special. One last piece of advice from my audience, or

something that you want to share

if you want to be remembered, listen,

okay, love it. Thank you. Deb,

this is so thank you really good. Janice, thank

you, and I always say at the end of my podcast to

my audience, first of all, thank you, and second of all, stay

connected and be remembered. Yes, thank.