A Guide to Relationship-Driven Sales in the Age of AI | RR282

John. Hello everyone, and welcome to this

week's episode of relationships rule. My guest today is John

golden, coming to us from sunny California, and I am quite

excited to delve into some sales and marketing topics with John.

He is a globally acknowledged sales and marketing thought

leader, speaker and strategist, and has conducted over probably

more now, but over 1500 video interviews of thought leaders

for his podcast and online sales magazine called sales pop. And

his use YouTube channel and his audio podcast channels, where

sales, pop lives, is rated in the top 2% of most popular

popular shows out of 3 million plus globally ranked by listen

notes. I know I got it at 2% once, but I haven't checked it

lately. So that's pretty cool, though. So welcome to the show,

John.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited

to do this.

Oh, you're welcome. I'm, first of all, I'm

going to back out, back up a little bit, because I hear that

little Irish accent. I know that you were originally from

Ireland, correct?

Yeah, that's right, originally from, from Dublin,

from Ireland. Yeah, born bread and buttered, as we like to say,

well, and I'm from, yep. And I said, and I came here about 27

years ago, during the.com era. So that's how I ended up here.

I never left, right?

I've never left. No, yeah,

I I'm from England, so I've got that United

Kingdom piece in me as well. So, but I was a kid when I came over

here, so I grew up here, but love sunny, sunny California. I

was just there a couple of weeks ago visiting family, and you're

in a beautiful spot in Carlsbad. I think it is so, so amazing. So

I want to dig in about something that I saw on your on your bio,

and it dates back a little bit, but I know it's probably

something that is important, I think still, and more so today

than ever, and that is what we call social selling. And you

wrote a book called social upheaval, how to win at social

selling. So I'm curious, how did you get into that what? What

prompted writing that book for you,

it's an interesting it's interesting because I wrote

the book. It's a number of years ago, as you said now, many years

ago now, when social selling was kind of in its infancy and

people were trying to grapple with the whole idea of of

LinkedIn and of social of social networks in general, and how do

you use this and and so I kind of wrote the book to help people

get a grounding in some of the ways that they could approach,

approach social selling and approach building their their

online presence in order to be able to take advantage of it.

And I think the thing today, Janice is like, social selling

is just selling. Now it's just part of selling. It's not a but

in the early days, there were early adopters who definitely

got a jump on a lot of their colleagues because they they

adopted social selling and and the thing, the thing about it at

the time, which was really interesting, was, you know, so

most sales leaders or sales managers, they wanted you

either, you know, pounding the phones or you're going out and

visiting clients or doing the idea of watching one of their

sales people, if they were in the office on LinkedIn or on

something, you know, posting stuff and commenting was was

counter intuitive at the time. It's like, well, why aren't you

calling people? Why aren't you upset? And they're saying, I am,

well, show me the, show me the result of it. And they're

saying, Well, it's, it's a gradual thing, and it's only

part of an overall process. You know, in many ways, it's just

getting a, you know, a foot in the door, sort of, he, hey, this

is who I am. So that's where he wrote. It was to try and bridge

that gap at the time between what was, you know, known as

traditional selling and social selling, and as I said, they've

all just morphed together, because at the end of the day,

it's just selling.

Well, that's, that's very true. However, I

think there, there's that distinction between

transactional selling that still creeps in, even on social media,

like, oh, yeah, yeah, on on LinkedIn in particular, because

I, I often hear from from my clients, about people getting

pitched all the time, and how do they, you know, and it's still

there. And people that, even though they're not pounding the

pavements, so they're, they're hitting their numbers by, you

know, copy and pasting the same email or having a robot do it

for them, right? There's one of those things. So I think in at

least for me, social selling is more about building

relationships. How do you feel about that? No, I would agree

with. With you. And I think that's what selling is

really about. Unless, as you said, unless you're in a maybe

you can, you know, B to C, or you're in a very transactional

sale where, where you rely on volume, as opposed to repeat

business. But when you get into the B to B realm, yes, it's all

about it's all about relationship, all about

relationship building. And back when I wrote the book, it was

interesting. David Meerman Scott, who is an author of

marketing books, well known author I had, I had a

conversation with him, and he told me, he said, things are

changing now. Once upon a time when you reached out to a

prospect or whatever, you know they would obviously, they would

Google and research your company, not so much you as a

person, because there wouldn't be much as you of you as a

person there. But that changed with with social media and

LinkedIn, suddenly they were going and researching you as a

person. And most people didn't realize that, and they and they

were, you know, a lot of the social media was sort of in its

infancy, so when people started to be researched themselves. It

was all sorts of either nothing was coming up or stuff that was

coming up that you probably rather not come up, not not

presenting you in in such a great light. And I think that's

absolutely and I think it's a fundamental it became, and it is

a fundamental piece now of you're you're going to be

researched. So how are you, how do you present online? Like, how

do you, how are you representing yourself online? Those things

are very important. And I do agree with you about the the

pitching, I think during, especially during COVID, you

know, a lot of people suddenly ran to LinkedIn, right and

thought, Okay, this is where I'm going to do all my prospecting

from now on, and they got into those usual bad habits of of

just spamming people. And I think, to be honest, I have a

bit of a beef with LinkedIn over they should never have

introduced that auto email, you know, because I it really

frustrates me when I get a connection request from

somebody. It's all lovely, personalized, and it looks like

they reached out, you know, in an elegant way, and all of this.

And I'm like, Okay, I hit Connect, and then Bing, up comes

a pitch. And I'm like, great, you've just completely undone.

Yeah, the work you did bait and switch, right?

Bait and Switch? Yeah, exactly. I know. I agree with you

totally. So how do you think just to bring it now to the

future and the present and the future? How do you think AI has

has shaken that in the mix? Because there's so many things

on LinkedIn that you can do directly. I have an app, an AI

app, that's just on my LinkedIn that I can use. And I just did

it to demonstrate to you on your posts from this morning, because

I wanted to have fun with that and talk about it. So you did a

post on LinkedIn. I think it was today. It might have been

yesterday, but it was interesting. And it was about,

uh oh, a 5000 year old technology, about the shoe

laces, and it was interesting, and so I used my AI prompting

piece to respond to you, just because I wanted to see what

you'd think about it. So can I share Can I share that with you?

Yeah, please, please do. You won't have seen it yet, right?

So you wrote this great post on LinkedIn about what is a 5000

year old technology. It was three weeks ago, actually,

sorry, a 5000 year old technology that still dominates

its market. Answer, shoelaces. And then you went in and gave us

the history of shoelaces, and then tied it into business,

which was great as well. And the last sentence, in a world of

increasingly rapid change, there are still some things that

endure, and the good old shoelace proves that. And there

was a an image as well. And I went to my AI prompting, which

is right there, and I I tweaked it a little bit because I didn't

want it to sound completely like the same. But it was so easy to

respond to using that that that is the way of the future. Here's

what we said. What I said? It said, although I changed the

beginning, interesting post, John, I love learning about

things we often take for granted. That was me. I didn't

that. And then it says, it's incredible how something as

simple as shoe laces has stood the test of time, proving that

sometimes the most effective solutions are the ones we've had

for ages. It's a reminder that innovation doesn't always mean

reinventing the wheel. Sometimes it's about enhancing what

already works beautifully. Now for me, doing that was so much

more sounded so much more interesting than just saying,

hey, great post. John,

yeah, no, absolutely, and that those are

the the Hey, great post is, is just shorthand for, I haven't

read your article, but I'm hoping, if I post a comment

here, that somehow I get, I'll get something in return, even

though I've given nothing. Yes, so no, I think what you did

there, I think, I think that's a for me, that's an elegant way of

using AI, you know, you it created. Nice reply for you, but

you also tweaked this, you know, to make it personal. So I have

no issue with that. What I would have an issue with is, if you're

just using AI to, okay, just generate a comment quickly and

throwing it in, just because, again, it's you're taking the

great post, great post, John up just another level, yes, but I

think if you're, if you're engaging and you are like

tweaking. I think that's, I think that's absolutely I think

it saves me half an hour, yeah, yeah. And I think that's

absolutely fine, because here's the thing, at the end of the

day, we're not all writers. We're not all, you know, some of

us, it comes very easy to for some people, it's very, very

difficult, and but they want to engage, and they want to, you

know, show feedback, and all of that stuff. So I think AI has a

great role to play. And also, yeah, I mean, sometimes you take

in the realm of sales, right? You know, sales people,

generally speaking, you're not the greatest writers, not the

greatest, like email communicators, and that, you

know, that's normally something that resides in person, your

people, people, yeah, that resides in marketing. So if

you're leveraging AI to write a good email, and you're reviewing

it, and you're tweaking it yourself, and you're making sure

it hits the mark, I and it's saving you time, and more

importantly, it's, it's it's delivering a better outcome to

the cost to who's ever on the receiving end of that email,

right? If it's clear, if it's written properly, all of that, I

think that's a, I think that's a great use of I think that's a

great use of AI

well, and I didn't, I was just thought I'd

have fun with that. I hadn't even thought about it until I

till we got online, because I did it before this morning,

earlier this morning. But, yeah, I'm just having fun with AI in

some ways. But I think what you said is really important that we

still have to think about making it real and and putting some

thought behind it, and not like you said, What did you call it

hate, and the hate and great, like, the fact that we haven't

read it, but we just say great article, yeah, right through

that, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And just, and just one other

thing too, is yes, is, you know, if you're using AI as a tool to

support your to support what you're doing, I think that's,

that's the key to it. If you just use it, like I said, if you

just use it as a shortcut, spam tool, or whatever you eventually

you'll get caught out. Because the thing, I think one thing

that's really, really up these days Janice, is our antenna

about what's real and what's not real and who's authentic and

who's inauthentic, and and therefore, I think over time, if

you, if you misuse AI, eventually people are going to

see you as inauthentic, because they're going to see through it.

It's inevitable that eventually they'll see through it.

Yeah, good point. So I'm going to switch topics

for a minute, because I love the fact that you are a podcaster as

well, and you're a very successful podcaster. And I want

to first of all, how did you get into podcasting? Yeah,

so it's, it's an interesting story. So, oh, good.

Well, at Pipeline, or CRM, a number of years ago, I think it

was 2016 17. We were, we were actually, it's funny how things

happen kind of almost accidentally. But you look back

and you think, you know, there was obviously some purpose to

that, or reasoning why that happened. But we were migrating

a blog right from one technology to another. I think we're moving

off type Oh, three, off the product, onto onto WordPress,

right and and as we were doing that, I was like, we're all

about education. We really like to give back. We really like,

you know, we're really into helping educate sales people,

you know, we might. We're a technology company. We sell a

platform, but we're really into the theory and the practice of

sales itself. So why not do an online magazine instead of just

a blog, right? And then the second point was, well, where do

we get content from? Well, we said, well, we can write some

content, but then again, there's lots of people out there with

great opinion, so maybe we could get them involved. And then we

started doing these short sales chats, right where we just live

sales chats with one person, and then, and then that morphed

into, well, this is great, because we get way better

content when you interview people, plus you can interview

people from around the globe. So then that morphed into, let's

just go out and interview as many interesting people as we

can and bring their perspectives to our audience. And so when we

first started off, Janice, you know, we were reaching out, we

were finding guests. And you know what it's like when you

start a podcast, initially, it's like, well, who are you and and

your podcast is tiny, like, why would I want to be on that? But

I have to say, we found so many people who were so gracious with

their time and their insights that even coming on a small, you

know, obscure podcast, you know, they were willing, they were

willing to do it. And then over time, as it grew, we're at the

stage now where. To be honest, we don't outreach anymore,

right? So, in fact, we have almost difficulty managing the

amount of requests we get. Plus, you know, we work with the we

work with the podcast agency also that's, you know, supplies

us with a lot of guests. So that was kind of the metamorphosis.

It was kind of an accidental thing that took on a life of its

own, which is often the best, the best things in life are like

that.

But now, is that something that like? Are you?

Have you always been one to want to speak in front of a crowd? Or

are you the life of the party? Or, you know, are you right? Did

you always want to be that person in front of the

microphone? Because, yeah,

I think so. I think I always think, you know myself

as I'm more of, yeah, I love to speak. I love to speak in an

audience. I love to come on a podcast. I love all of that, you

know, the that that's a part that I really love, you know,

it's, you know, I'm not, I'm not probably the person who's going

to burst into the room and do all like, Hey, look at me, and

look at me, and all of that kind of stuff, you know, that's not,

that's not really me, but standing in front of an audience

I find or doing a podcast, you know, I really enjoy that part,

and I enjoy the connection like you. And when you're live

speaking, you love to see, you know, you spot somebody over

there who's smiling, or somebody who's taking a note, or somebody

who's nodding their head, or all of that, and, and, and then you

see the person who's not, and then you're going, like, this is

my challenge. Now I'm going to get a reaction out of those

people. So true, yes, yes, absolutely. And

so it's, I find it very energizing. And I think

also, you know, podcasting, and that's why, generally, I do

interviews, I don't do monologs, because I think, yeah, yeah. I

mean, I probably, maybe I have something interesting to say.

But I think the interaction between two people, and the

essence of podcasting I love, is when you feel like you're just

listening in on a conversation between two people. It's like

you're, you know, going back to when I was young, like you're

sitting on the bus and you're bored, you know, on the way

home, and you hear a conversation behind you, and it

entertains you for the whole journey. True,

that's very true. Yeah, that's good. So, so it

started for a way to promote, really, and help your clients

through the pipeline or company the CRM product that you sell,

correct,

yeah, it was really, it's really about

helping them with sales and with sale, you know, with sales

skills, insights and that. And then we got into sales

management and leadership and marketing. So it really is that

it really is a kind of an altruistic give back. It's a

free education resource, you know, that we we bring to

people. Because, as I said, we have, we have the tool, but we

believe that it's tool and theory, at the end of the day,

that makes the difference. And frankly, you know, we know

buyers have been through massive changes over the last number of

years, and how they buy sales is sales has lag behind a little

bit, I think, in in terms of change, in terms of of evolving

to meet those, those changing needs. And that's what we tried

to plug that gap a little

bit so just as a podcaster, have you ever? So

people get pitched to you by your sales agency and so on, or

by your podcast agency. And also, you find people along the

way that you want to interview. Have you ever can you think of

an example where you've gone, Okay, this one was really great,

but this one was a bomb. Like, how did you don't have to name

names, of course. But, you know, the experience, I'd be,

to be honest, I've been generally being very, very

fortunate that I've had very few of of, and I wouldn't even say

that any that I would say are a bomb. I think I've had a couple

of, you know, sometimes you get somebody who's maybe a little

who's not as used to doing it, who hasn't been on many

podcasts, and struggles with, maybe, at the beginning,

struggles with having a free flowing conversation. You know,

they'd be more comfortable if you gave them the questions and

you just asked the question, they have their their answer.

And that's not how I operate. So I would die if I had to do that.

Yeah, I know me too. I mean, too, because it just some of the

best conversations end up being like very little to do what you

started off talking Exactly, yeah. So, yeah. I mean, so I

think that's that's been the only times that you know, there

have been ones that maybe, and then I wouldn't say, like I

said, I wouldn't say they bombed. I would just say maybe I

had to work a little harder at them, just because I realized

that the person was maybe not as comfortable as other guests. And

therefore, you know, I had to find a way of getting them more

comfortable, allowing them to, you know, come out of their

shell or and you know that that that's a difficult thing in

itself. Surprise. I mean, I could list you so many people

who are being so surprising, just in, in what they've done

and in what they talk about, like I there's a guy, Kevin

cotton, who's, where's he? I can't remember where he's based

now, but somewhere, I think he might be in Singapore, somewhere

like that. But he got, he's gone and spent. Spent a year or two

with the Maasai tribes, you know, oh, really,

I remember studying them in in

anthropology. He,

he has lived, lived among them, and, you know,

studied what they do, and you know, brought that into into

business, and that which has been fascinating. In fact, he

invited me if I ever wanted to go and spend some time with him

in the Maasai. But oh how fast. I don't have a few months to

spare right now. And and like Dave Sanderson, the guy who was

the last, the last civilian off of the plane that ditched in the

Hudson River. You remember the miracle in the Hudson, he was

the last of the passengers off that plane as well. I mean, so

there's so many people like that who have these life experiences

that are just so mind blowing. But the but the the lessons that

come out of them are so adaptable to our to our lives.

You know, we don't need to have these dramatic incidences. And

then you just have people who have just had what I would call,

you know, regular life experiences, just like the rest

of us, with their ups and downs and their bumps, but they've

been able to parlay that into into interesting insights for

other people. So yeah, so that's, that's probably the most

surprising, is it's not the people who have the dramatic

event. Because, that's an easy one. You think, yeah, it's the

people who've had a life that most of us would go, yeah,

that's kind of like mine. It's not, you know, it's ups and

downs, it's yeah, it's a very regular but they've come up with

these great, great insights through that to share, or

they've made changes in their lives. You know that, yes, yes,

applicable to other people,

and those are the things that actually put me in

awe when I think of when I see those stories, or read those

stories of people that have really changed their life in a

big way. Yeah, I noticed that you're a martial artist, yeah,

and I have a little granddaughter who's five, and

she's taking Taekwondo, and has been since she was three, and

she's the most super active kid that needs the discipline of it,

and we're actually struggling right now with it, because she's

supposed to take her next test, but she's been so busy not

Paying attention that she really wasn't ready, and the, the the

coach hadn't or the, what do you call him, the Master? Yeah, the

master hadn't invited her to take it yet because she wasn't

ready, right? So you say you're a fourth dan in in WT in

taekwondo, okay, what's a, what's that? What's a dead

fourth degree black belt.

Okay, okay, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So do

you ever teach? I'm

a little bit but I mean, generally, I'm still a

student myself, you know. I mean, a lifelong student. But

interesting, what you say about you, about your niece, because

my granddaughter, my granddaughter, sorry, I, you

know, I did Taekwondo in Ireland when I was younger, and then I,

you know, drifted away from it. But when my son was born, he

was, you know, he's an only child, and and I thought, you

know, when he was three, I thought, you know, I need to get

me to martial arts, because I just want him. I just want him

to be left alone. Should we put it that way? Right? Yes, I'll be

bothered by Pete, by both. And so I started him in taekwondo

when he was three. And within a few weeks, the the Masters,

where we were living in Virginia, Grand Master mental

came and the master Danny, and they said, why aren't you doing

it with him? And I was like, Oh, well, you know. So anyway, so

they, talked me into it, and I started. So three and a half my

son started, I started with him, and he's now 19, and he's still

doing it, you know, he's got other things too, but he still,

you know, does it as much as he can and and so we went on this

phenomenal, like, 16 year journey that we're still on of

just and it was a great it's a great bonding experience for us.

But also, I would tell you this Janice is, I don't know when he

was growing up, the amount of times people mentioned to me,

like, why your son is very manly, he's very respectful. And

they were saying like, and, you know, how do you, how do you,

how do you get him like that? And I said, well, because we're

fantastic parents, obviously. And I said, Well, no, I said,

but to be honest, I think martial arts has played a

massive role in that, because it's the it's one of the few,

it's one of the few places left where you have to earn things,

where you have to show respect, where you have to respect you

have to respect seniority. You have to respect people older

than you. You might be better than them, but you have to

respect them, because they're more senior, they're older, and

you happen to be maybe younger and more agile, or whatever.

And, and that is, that is, so that's such a critical piece of

it, and, and, and I'll tell you a funny story you might want to

share with your granddad. Yes, I'd love that. Is, there was one

time I. When, when my son was really small, he was like, maybe

four or five, I don't know, but after I he used to do a kid's

class, and then he would do the adult class with me. So I would

sit through the kids class, and it was one day he was messing

about in the class, right? He wasn't paying attention. And at

the end of the class, there was only about four of them in that

class. Particularly, for some reason at the end of that class,

the instructor said, Okay, I'm going to give a stripe on your

belt, you know, a little bit of tape on your belt to everybody

who really worked hard today. So the other three got it, and he

didn't right. And so he came back at the end of class to me,

and he was, you know, really upset and and everything like

that. And I was trying to console him. Then I said, Okay,

go talk to Macedonian. Ask him, ask him why. And so, so he sat

him down, and he said, and he said to Jake, what color's your

your belt? And it was like yellow or green or something, at

the time, green. He goes, and what colors his belt over there?

And he said, Well, he's a yellow belt, and, you know, so he's a

lower belt, yeah. And he goes, How would you feel? How would

you feel, Jake, if I just went into the office now, grabbed her

a green belt off the wall and gave it to him. How would you

feel? And he said, Well, he hasn't earned it. He hasn't, he

hasn't done his and he goes, Yes. He goes, Why did you not

get a stripe this morning? And he goes, Well, because I didn't

earn it. And he goes precisely. And, you know, just the one

small and that stuck with him forever after that. And it's

just those phenomenal life lessons, but done in an but done

in an elegant way, right, in a way where understandable and

relatable. So that's why I think beautiful, and I hope for you,

you know your granddaughter will that will have the same impact

on her, and she realized that, yeah, it's not, it's not

participate. You don't get participation, right? Oh, you

earn what you get. And I just think that's a phenomenal life

lesson, particularly totally things are, you know, there's a

lot of mixed kids are getting a lot of mixed messages these

days. So true.

I know she, um, her mom took her out of class

towards the end of the class because she was fooling around

and not paying attention. And then gave her, you know, a

little had a conversation with her that night, and she said, Do

you want to get your next belt? She said, Yes. And she said,

Well, you can't do it if you're doing that in class. So we're

not going to go back if this is how you're going to be. She

says, I want to. I want to. So she went back last I think it

was last Monday and or last Wednesday, and she was fine. So

I don't know how she was yesterday yet, but, you know,

it's like, but it's, this is what it's there for, to teach

them that discipline and to teach them, yeah, so that's a

great story. I will share that. Thank you. And the other thing I

noticed is that you, you say that you or it says in your bio

that you are a secret, a secret of wisdom. So that, to me, means

you're a lifelong learner. And also, just that post that we

talked about earlier, about the sneakers, there are things that

you come across that that you want to, you know, find out more

information, because you had to, to find to do that article, I'm

sure. So are you a natural writer, or do you just, like,

find things and then just, is that become part of that

learning and seeking wisdom? Yeah. I mean,

I'm fortunate to be a natural writer. I've always

been, you know, throughout my life, it's I wish, I wish. I

know that comes really easy to me. Other things don't. So,

yeah, we all of our of course, but I think, I think, I think

curiosity is, and I think you're, and if we're just

talking about sales and business people, Curiosity is so key. And

I think we through technology and social media and all the one

of the One of the downfalls, it's a double edged sword,

right? I mean, it's given us access to so much information.

So if you're curious, by nature, you've got, like, so much

information out there. You can find information about anything,

but because it also feeds all this nonsense to people, they

kind of lack, I think it's diminished the curiosity of a

lot of people. Or if people aren't curious, you know, they

or they would be very superficial in terms of, you

know, they some, they hear something, they check a

headline, okay, but I've got it. I don't need to go any deeper.

And I think there's a little bit of a superficiality creeping in.

But I think for me, it's, it's natural curiosity, it's just

things that are fascinating and and like you said, the shoelace,

the shoelace one, because I've tried that, I tried that a

number of times to people like in groups, and I say, name me a

technology that's 1000s of years old. That's that basically has

not really been improved upon and has never been replaced, and

nobody ever gets it right. And then shoelaces people go, Whoa.

That's that's never thought of that. And and so I just think

that that, you know, just that cure that curiosity. And I think

if you're naturally curious, or if you develop a heightened

sense of curiosity, it makes you a better sales person and makes

you a better business person, because you really want to learn

more, you want to understand, and the only way it's rich even

says the only way you're going to understand more about an

organized. And what's going on is by having conversations,

asking questions, and then listening and then going deeper

and really wanting to to understand and being curious

about the business of business, because that's changing all the

time too. So I would say curiosity is probably one of the

number one traits that will help you be successful. And if you're

not in that, yeah, some people are. If you're not naturally

curious, it is something that you can develop and nurture.

Because let's face it, I'm I don't age you, but I'm certainly

old enough to remember the encyclopedias in our in our

living room at home. And when you needed to look up something,

you went to the encyclopedia. Now, the information and

encyclopedia was already, I don't know, five years out of

date, but that was your only source of information. So, you

know, it took a little bit of effort. You had to go and open

it and open and find it and do that. And then if you found

something, maybe you then had to go to the library and find, see

if there was a book camera and all of that those days ago.

Everything is there in front of you. So it's kind of like you

have no excuse anymore. So so

that that whole that thing that you just said

was just like gold, because if you read the thing I sent you

about my about some questions I may ask, my biggest thing is

about curiosity, and you just answered it without even me

asking you. Because I always like to to do that with my with

my guests and and I love that. I love that. I think we all are

born with curiosity, but I think some of us get it drummed out of

us, and some have to come back to it. But you also made me

think of something else when you talked about the shoelace. I'm

thinking of another thing that might be worthy of a topic,

because I was always fascinated with the umbrella, and the

umbrella has not changed forever, and then it did. Then

there was this guy in Germany that invented a new umbrella,

that I bought one actually online. And it was so

disappointed, because it came from China, and it was, it was

not in a great shape, and it broke after a while, but it was

the best in improvement on an umbrella I have ever seen.

Instead of closing down, it closed up, so all the wet stuff

didn't come all over you, right? The water was on the inside

brilliant umbrella. When you get in a car and you close it,

right, you don't get the So, but it never has caught on. That's

an interesting I mean, I think it's also

obviously knowledge, and sometimes people get comfortable

with things. But that's an interesting I tell you, though.

And there's another interesting one is, and I think this is

where sometimes you know, it's, maybe it's a it's an even better

example of what you're talking about, because it has been

successful. The people who did the Swiffer, yes, jet mobs,

right? Yes. They said, they said they were not inventing

something new. They were just making something that worked

really well for a long time. The mop more efficient. So they took

that thing. It's like, we're not inventing the mop. The mop is

already there. We're just making them up more efficient. And

obviously that caught on. Clearly, the the guy who

invented the umbrella, for some reason, it didn't catch on in

the same way. Maybe didn't have the funds to market it, or

whatever part of it. Yeah, but that's why I always say to

people, sometimes you don't, you know, it's great to be

innovative and like earth shattering and break a paradigm

and all of that. But sometimes it's more effective and better

to just improve something that's already there.

Yeah, this has been delightful. Thank you,

John. Thank you for being my guest and for sharing, just

having this great conversation. We went touched a lot of topics,

and I and I appreciate that, because I you know, it allows me

and my audience to get to know you a little bit, and hopefully

they will go and explore your podcasts and the things that you

talk about that and where they may get hold of you. I'll put in

the show notes. So the podcast is, would you, I think I have

here. It's on Apple, but you want it on YouTube as well,

right? Yeah, yeah, it's

on, it's on all the podcasts. Oh, yeah, got it,

okay, yeah, it's

on everything. And Pipeliner sales.com is where

you, where you live, as well, right? Yeah,

pipeline sales.com says pop.net, and obviously you

can find me on LinkedIn,

absolutely. And one final, maybe business tip

for my audience, if anything comes to you,

yeah, I think the biggest business tip I would

give is is never make assumptions. We, you know, we

tend to do that. Sometimes we're hardwired, sometimes to make

assumptions. I think, at this time of year, particularly as

the end of the year is coming up in that is, you know, don't make

assumptions. Don't make assumptions that your customers

are happy because you haven't heard from them. That's, you

know, that's one. Don't make an assumption that maybe you've

tapped out on on a client. Because, you know, circumstances

are changing all the time. There may be opportunities you. Don't

assume that maybe you have, you know, you've asked for a ref,

you've asked for a referral once, and it never came, so

you've given up on that. You just assume that it doesn't

work. I think assumptions are your worst enemy. Put it that

way,

oh, I think that's a great segue into what I

always say at the end of my podcast, actually, because I

totally agree with you, and that is first I think I'll thank you

for being here again, and I thank my audience for being

here. And if you like what you heard, please let us know we

always love five star reviews. And I want you to remember to

stay connected and be remembered.

Perfect. Thank you. Janice,

thank you.