Letting Kids Lead: Understanding the Parental Role in Decision Making | 009

as fathers, do we want our kids to do what we want? Or do we want them to become good decision makers? If it's the latter, then what is our role as a father? And how do we facilitate our children's decision making? Instead of taking over and just getting them to act the way we think they should? This is Matthew Sloane. Joining me for this topic of holding space for our kids decision making is Mike. I know Mike from college, which was about 78 years ago, I think. We got to know each other through playing Ultimate Frisbee, living together, working together. And always staying in touch to compare notes on the way we experienced and intended to shape our lives. We live on opposite coasts of the US. So I'm mildly I know your children, Mike through your stories and your Christmas cards. And I think of you, Mike as a very optimistic but also realistic person. And I'm looking forward to exploring this topic with you today. So welcome to the conversation.

Thanks for having me. That's very kind intro kind of touched. Nice, even kinda, I am.

Oh, thank you. I'm glad to hear that. So let's do a quick grounding. And then we can roll into a conversation. So for those listening, if you are driving, please keep your eyes open. Otherwise, find yourself in a comfortable position either standing or sitting. And allow yourself to feel your body as it makes contact with the earth, whether that's your button, a chair or your feet on the ground or both

are now just notice your breathing

bring a little attention to the pulses and the temperature and the any movement within your body.

Notice the skin along your spine at the back of your body. And even if you can bring awareness to a few inches back behind that off of the skin of your body.

Feel free to make any adjustments to your breathing or posture for a moment.

And then you may bring yourself back to this conversation. So we'll kick it off, Mike, if you can say anything to do with fatherhood wins and was recent stuff that will help people get a context for your life. And include if you like your kids names, or at least their ages, we can get a sense of you as a dad wins and lows, Winton woes, winds and woes. But same idea. Yeah, same idea.

So winds while I was away for a couple of days, this week, visiting with family and celebration. It's been a year since my grandmother passed. And so she's 101 and a half, which is super cool. And kind of daunting when you think about like, potentially have a long way to go on this journey. And I was texting with my son Kai, who's 15 He was asking a question about something I was like back and forth. And you know, just in that moment, I just had this feeling of like, I miss you. I haven't seen you in a couple days. I've been used to being around and I gotta miss you back. Right? And yeah, it was just super touched and just, you know, small interaction, you know, taking care of father son business, you know, just doing what we do and communicating, but just to, like, share a sentiment and a feeling in a moment. That was

it holds us cargo 15.

And I think, you know, similarly, in coming home, and catching up with my daughter, Joanna, who's 13 In the morning, you know, just saying morning, she came downstairs, checking her phone, as happens. And you know, the same morning, hey, and she looked up and just kind of acknowledged which maybe in a typical morning, you know, where I'm around might be more of a grunt or being ignored. You know, in some way, it was just kind of this moment of just reconnecting. So like a couple of just kind of communication relationship wins. was probably some of the things we'll talk about in this conversation around decision making in space for that and right, just the challenge of empowerment and agency and autonomy and the responsibility and accountability that we sort of have as parents to keep them safe and

yeah, yeah. pretty recently. Oh,

yeah, I think it's just kind of I think it's like a constant. Right. It's the what has happened in those moments and navigating those with some wins. Yeah, yeah. But I don't. I was gone for a couple of days. So I don't have any like was that are screaming at me? Yeah.

Okay, go work with that. Thank you, I'll share as well. So for me, let's see, one, when is the connection I'm having with my son, he's three and a half. And I'm noticing we're getting into good rhythm, where if he's, like losing control of himself, and like an example is maybe a day ago, we have a table in the dining room, that's just for the kids to draw, basically. And so there he goes over the markers, he's frustrated. And he just wrote, it says one by one just starts throwing stuff over his shoulder, like, to the side stuffs going everywhere. And what I know I don't want to do is shame him. But I also want to shift things and help him recalibrate. So what's been working really well, and he kind of gets what's going on, when I do this, I'll pick him up, and I go, Hey, let's get some fresh air, I'll put on my shoes, or if it's too quick, and I can't, I'll just walk out to our front steps. But either way, we have this, like, a couple of these moments of bonding in my driveway. And it's quiet enough area that we can look at the trees, we can look at the hill far away, we can look at the sky, there's always something to look at. That's natural. And I believe that shift has been really good for both of us. So I hope so that what's happening there. But either way, it's just it feels like good moment making. See a Whoa, would be I suppose I'm noticing I have a little less attention for my daughter, as my son requires still a lot of my intention. So my daughter's seven. And yeah, I just I mean, I love her. And I wish I had a little more time, especially during the transition times in the morning, or going to bed, you know, back and forth from school, that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's a well at the moment for me. Yeah. So we figured out this topic together, Mike and I compose some questions, and I know you're aware of these. Let's talk about why this topic is important to you, like who you are today, why is this topic of holding space for kids decision making important for you?

For me, I think there's a need I need I recognize that I think I had as a kid, but maybe wanted more of it maybe wanted more information about and then, you know, in my work where, you know, in the conflict space in particular, but just in working with people and coaching and facilitating groups or working one on one, empowerment and agency is kind of at its core. And it's a you know, it's a path I've chosen the career wise. So in a lot of ways, it's just sort of like this integration of it's it's kind of core to who I am and in exploring and reflecting on my own kind of grown up and, you know, navigating all this time periods of still growing. Sometimes a long beard, as we talked about, you know that bringing those lessons or opportunities to, to my kids is important. Yeah, yeah. Just being authentic about it and, and open to it and learning from it. Yeah.

I definitely resonate with that. Yeah, I mean, for myself, if I think back to well, I'll say more about when I was younger, later. But for me, what's really pressing is how controlling I can be in the day to day experience, and how that shows up as the antithesis it's more reactionary and impulsive. It's the antithesis of what I value, and what I would like to offer my children truly. And I want to make sure that not only are they developing their own agency, but that there's this open line of communication between us so that I can keep a connection with them. And, you know, offer support when it's needed and wanted, versus, you know, me being the Overlord and

losing and posing for sure. Yeah,

yeah. Well, let's talk about the past. So what was your experience as a son in relation to your parents, like how did they either exert control or give you space for your own decision making?

Yeah, I mean it in a lot of ways, I mean, I always sort of felt safe and there's like abundance and I had a lot of freedom as a kid. grown up on an independent school campus and those kinds of things from a broad brush perspective. And, and I can also think of right, like, in the things that they have done, you know, they've navigated themselves to the places they were, which were providing all those things, right. So there's a confidence and in what they had done. And so, in some ways, there's a lot of like, hey, there's a system here. And, you know, like, we've learned some things. And, you know, we think it's pretty good. So, you know, here are some of the ways so it was kind of, it was like, here's a way, right, and this is the way maybe not in the Mandalorian sense. And so, you know, that, that undercurrent was there, and at the same time, there's, like, specific instances, I can think of, where, you know, I was brought up in a Jewish household, my parents are, you know, practicing, you know, not, not overly so, but it was certainly part of the fabric of our family life. And, and my older brother, I'll leave his age, Brian was, I had kind of gone the whole way through Hebrew school, I remember in high school and, and I was a freshman at the time, we were three years apart. And I think it was coming into my sophomore year, I had done Hebrew school again, my freshman year, because that's just what you did. And my family, right. So the system, if you will, and, but it was my sophomore year, and I remember Yom Kippur was kind of falling on a big race, across countries for for my team, and as competitive runner, important runner and the team and those kinds of things. And teams important to me, and, you know, what's happening in front of me is important to me. And, and the idea of missing it, my connection to my religion, and those things, it just wasn't, wasn't connecting for me. You know, and I remember going to my parents and saying, like, I, you know, like, this is more important to me. Like, being with the team, these values, this is, this is that decision, and they respected that choice. You know, they wasn't like, this is the system and you go and do this, and, and then shortly after, I was like, Oh, I just advocated for myself. And then I said, you know, and I'd actually like a day off, because that's awesome. usually meant Sunday's go into school. And I was, you know, six days a week in school, sports, all of that through high school. And I said, Actually, I think I'm done with school, like this life, my rest, hanging out with friends doing that kind of thing. Like, that's where I'm fulfilled and where I get my energy from. So again, there would be these windows where, you know, there is space, you know, for that. So nice fun. Yeah. So I'd say there's this, there's definitely control and like, do things. And then maybe as I was older, there's a little bit more space for that.

We probably grew up in somewhat similar environments, in that I felt like you have a tremendous amount of safety, like they were things were provided for, we didn't worry in the sense that other families might. And I remember generally feeling that I was given a lot of freedom to try if I wanted to something, or to not do something like I chose to not get my driver's license right away as an almost every other kid my age wanted to, I waited an extra year for some reason. I remember, the kind of encouragement that they gave was around working. So they were somehow I can't remember the exact circumstance. But somehow I ended up with a paper out. And I'm pretty sure I didn't create that. Like, I just went along with the idea. And then okay, it was mine. And then mowing lawns, for neighbors for money. And then after college, I remember living at home at first. And there was a period of time where my parents were, like, cool that I even started working a bit. And then at some, one day, my mom was like, you know, in about three months, we're gonna start charging you rent. And that's when I made plans to leave. And so I didn't feel necessarily controlled, there were boundaries that were set like that. That allowed me to make the decision that felt right for me, because I don't ever want to pay my parents around. I mean, a big one for me, too. And you have some insight into this because you've known me for so long. There was a time that my parents were unsure about the first woman that I married, which I'm no longer married to. And I heard it in my mom's voice one point. And then they let me make the decision. And I'm so glad for that. I wouldn't take any of it back. So similar kind of dynamic. Yeah, I wanted to jump into the next phase, but was there any thought or question there?

No, just kind of appreciation for that. That kind of vignette and boundary piece right boundaries are, they're important? How did you find them? What are they? How to share them? Right? How do you come up with them in the first place? Yeah. When do you want to change them?

That's a good one. So let's talk about the experience as a dad, maybe you can give an example of how you've held space for one of your kids decision making processes.

Well, I guess we talked about when we kind of zeroed in on this right running. Yeah. Right. And so okay, I guess kind of that, you know, thinking about, I guess there's the symmetry to the running story, because mine was connected that way. The outcome is, was a little bit different. And so recently, my son's 15. So he's a sophomore, and, and when he was going into his freshman year, he was like, I want to do some sports and everything, I want to do cross country, and I did cross country, and still run quite a bit there. And it was like, it was super cool. And I remember him, we had gone for a hike at the end of the summer, right before school was starting, and the season was starting. And we were with some friends, we went for a hike. And he was like data, I want to get in a couple extra miles. I want to go for a run after this. And I was like, Sure, okay, so let's go, you know, go for a couple, you know, a couple miles down the road, get back to, you know, the camp and, and everything. And I liked Lea. Leave her a job to she, she took a picture of us, running away from them. And I saw that and I was just like, wow, this is how cool is that? Right? Like, you know, I wonder what he's gonna find in the sport, right? And this decision he's making. And, and I remember a couple of weeks later, at his first meet, getting a picture, and being in touch with my coach from way back in the day. And being like, Hey, look at this, you know, all these years later? Yeah, another reason is he out there running because my brother had run to, and it turns out my dad, my uncle Marcos a little bit more accomplished. So, you know, so it's just kind of this like thing, like, look at that, that's super cool. Fast forward to this fall, and a freshman year for him as a little injury ridden, which it can be when you're first getting into the sport, and that's a hard sport, and, and whatnot. And, you know, second year started off pretty strong. And, you know, he had done a little bit more work in the summer, although not as much as you need to. I remember what that was, like, I definitely didn't do as much as I probably probably could have done to be ready for some seasons, but you can kind of fake it at that age sometimes. And work being you're talking about athletic, yeah, athletic partitions getting getting ready. Yeah, physically ready. And, you know, everybody's different in that regard. And so the year started off well, and he was proud of results. And he would make jokes about you know, it's in good genetics, and all those kinds of things. And then some injuries set in, you kind of see as well, you know, kind of tested and my wife and I were away for a couple of days. And in a running event, too. And, you know, we came back we kind of, you know, we had heard like, oh, you know, skip this meet this is bugging me talk to the coach, you know, taking a breather and everything. And then when we came back, we were just catching up with them. And, you know, he is definitely disappointed with how his body was feeling. He was just kind of questioning, like, sort of the sport, not the team absolutely loves the interaction and being around his teammates, the CO Ed nature of the teams at the boys and girls teams and competing together and traveling together. And they just clearly struggling, right. And and we were too as parents, like, we're just like, us is really hard. If he was more physically ready, right? Or, you know, or maybe as well sort of in question. I remember in that moment, I was kind of like, what have you thought about just not being on the team? And like, I remember in my own mind going like, Whoa, did you just say that? Right, because that wouldn't have been something that was on my radar. When I was in high school, like I can just clearly remember, like, the environment I was in was like, oh, like, push, push, push and be as successful as you can. And, you know, sometimes that wasn't read to the edge maybe that I could have but I was like, wow, okay, if you thought about not being on the team, and I saw his face go, he just kind of relaxed. And he was like, what, well, I wouldn't want to let down my teammates. And I was like, Okay, that sounds super important to you, as well. How about you? Like, and he's like, Well, I don't score on the team. I don't really like running. I like some of the results I get, you know, but the experience isn't there. And Leah, like jumped into it was like, well, some of these things can both be true, right? Like you can enjoy the team and knowledge or the sport. And you'll still know those people. And so in that process, we just kind of talked about sort of, like what you were saying with your parents and setting some boundaries, right was, well, to make a decision like that, like, you need to get in some information and decide for yourself. So, you know, we kind of talked through like, what, what that could look like. Yeah, and of course, his parents would experience in those things. And, you know, we'd hope for would be like talking to the coaches would be an important thing. You might learn something you don't know, they might not know you're thinking about the things you are, you know, because we've learned he hadn't really talked about it with his coach. Not surprising, right? And talk to the captains. Talk to some of your close friends that are on the team. And then decide and know, whatever you decide, you can change your mind to, you know, it can feel right today. And you might find yourself missing it. Right? Not today, not tomorrow, right? But you know, a year from now, could be next season, you're like, Oh, I wish I was actually getting ready to do that. So Susie's, like, okay, and he left him out for school, he was definitely lighter. But you know, and I remember Leah and I just being like, okay, like wanting him to stay with the team, to know what it means like to commit to something and kind of push through physically, knowing that it's a great community of kids coaches, right. And like, those kinds of things, not so much about the sport, but just like the lessons you can learn about, you know, persevering. And at the flip side, it's like, okay, but how can a decision to not stay with the team have the same kind of, you know, lessons, right, gain, right? You know, how to, how to end something, build a bridge, take action into what's next, like all those things. So, and that was sort of like the second chapter of that, because he came home the same day. I think it was like, early evening, dinner time post practice, and, you know, we just kind of waited you know, you know, he came into the kitchen, and he is like, I left the team. Right? And, and that was hard to hear. Initially, as a parent, you're like, okay, man, it'll be okay. But like, that just feels like, that's, that's an ending? Grief. Right? Let's, let's hold some space for something that you're saying. Enough, right. Yeah, and then the next chapter, you know, from there is like, okay, but here are some of the things that this means, which he knew kind of going into weighing his decision to about looking for something to fill the void. He was gonna get ready for hockey season. He wanted to do a little bit more work, you know, work to make money, you know, things like that. So he had some plans to kind of fill his time, but she was kind of jumping headlong into that we were pretty clear about like, deciding not to do this doesn't mean it's loads of free time. That's like what's, you know, what is it that you want to be doing? At this point. So

that's such a great example, like, what I take away most from that is how, especially because of the story you told at the beginning of this conversation, how important running is to you, and then how special it could be to have your son also be a runner for as long as makes sense for his body. But to open up the conversation for him to see a way out of that is very egoless. And how honoring of him as a human being to decide that's so cool.

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing I wonder in that is why I made a decision at the end of high school while I was talking to colleges to run out to go to school that didn't have a team because I had decided I was done with running. So it's sort of been an obviously, like, right now I'm like, way back deep into it, but in a very different way. But I kind of said no to competitive running. So I sort of knew, right? Like, life can be fine after you make that decision. I do wonder how I don't like collegiately, and like all this stuff, and then what would that right? Like, all these things we've actually probably wouldn't have met. You didn't do right, exactly. Me too. Right. I have no regrets about any of these choices, right. But I often kind of thought about that. I was like, Oh, my, you know, my decisions, right? Probably made it a little bit easier for me to hold that space. And what I feel differently had, like my life really revolved around something that we were truly shared, right?

Yeah, I can imagine the, the connection you guys have is deeper than running in that as felt through that story where you give him some tools to go make the decision for himself. I'll give an example of this. So with my seven year old, also a sport situation she was in ballet. I think we started about a year and a half ago. And she was super into it. She was it basically, she got to be in the class with the little kids in the beginning at that age. So it was all like, you know, fun music and no corrections really just like teachers saying, yeah, do what you can, you know, super light and fun. And she loved it, she thought was super cute to be in the room with all these other kids, some of which were younger, and some were her age. And then she was invited to go to the next level. And she was kind of young for that. But it didn't matter. She was tall. So they kept thinking she was older. And after I reminded them of her actual age, they were like, well, she can try it. And she doesn't have to stay there if she doesn't want. So she did try it. And she got really into it for a while. And it was much more serious. It was like you show up on time, you have to do things actually the right way, you're gonna get corrected, you're gonna get a workout, now you're gonna come out tired. And that was the first time she'd ever had an experience like that. And what started happening was she would say like, the morning of, I don't want to do it anymore. And I'm like, Okay, I know, that feeling of because, like, in my experience in wrestling in high school, I never wanted to go to practice. And then in the middle of that, I was like, Okay, this is kind of fun. And then by the end, I was like, my body feels so good. So I was trying to encourage her to like, Okay, well, we're not going to quit today. Let's see what happens. And she would continually be coming out like, I'm so glad I went like, yeah. And so that kept happening, though, even though she knew she would come out, loving it, to keep saying the morning of I don't want to go, or I don't feel well, or make up something. And I was clear with her that like, look, you can, we could stop this. And the way it can work is we just need to give them a few weeks notice. Because the way we pay for it, we're not going to leave and leave money on the table, so to speak, Andre. And so we got to that point, eventually, where she had come out of a class where she glad she went, Yes. But she was done. Okay. And I the only attachment I had to that that I had to get over was it was it had become an odd sort of ritual for she and I that was no longer going to be there. And then also the I'd come to kind of have fun with the parents in the other room while the kids were in the ballet room. So I had these little bonds formed. But I handled that I had figured out that for myself. So yeah, I'm glad that she was able to be the one to make the decision that I didn't have a heavy hand in that, but just a gentle nudge of Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it now then. Okay, cool.

Yeah. And I heard a plate boundary in that too, with right now.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, that felt really good to the doubt. I hoped there was. I don't think we're at the end of this conversation, right? Like, that'll just be like an example in her memory of like, oh, yeah, there might be a boundary with this decision. Right. So yeah, we'll come back to

that. Remember that right. We're facing another one. And here's Yes.

Yeah, I love I love reminding her of the past and how we've navigated stuff for what's relevant now. Yeah. Do you want to give another example as a dad?

Trying to think of one? I mean, there's probably like a million flashing through.

There's one you mentioned to me before you want me to remind you that one. Yes, please. It was the I in relation to his work? And the

lifted? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we're leaving Joanna in the dust. There's a lot to go through there, too. Yeah. And with that, one, I think that kind of the what's next from, you know, leaving the cross country team, and being like, Okay, I'm gonna go get some work and get ready for hockey and like, those kinds of things. And so, you know, he got himself into the hockey mode, admittedly, I think this was part of where, you know, he's figuring out his physical boundaries, where he had to sort of, like, navigate that a little bit too. And he was communicating around it. So there's definitely this, he's kind of in that mode, where he's kind of growing into himself. And we actually talked about needing to understand where his physical limits are and managing that. So that was kind of a fun conversation going from one sport to the next one that he's passionate about and interested in. But he still has to go through that pain and understanding your body. Yeah, so that's actually probably even another another story there. That also relates to our daughter because she does competitive cheer, and so we have to navigate that in a different way. But with the work one, in the process of identifying where he wanted to work, he had some ideas of restaurants and he likes to cook a lot and Leah spent a lot of time in the restaurant industry. I never I never did, I guess with the exception of some time at Carmel, but I don't know that doesn't really count in the same way.

And forgot about that. The ice cream pack.

Robbins. That's right. So and in that way, like he, he was understanding the industry a little bit more on how to break in and you know, he had, you know, he would leave school and he would go to get applications and, you know, go through that process because the jobs he had had for neighbors like yours and other things. And one that he had got, because I happen to know the owner of Marblehead sports shop, and we were down there and talking and I said, Hey, what do you do about work stuff, and he had a lot of interesting projects. So Kai would go do projects for him. But Kai wasn't necessarily feeling that some of those projects, right, you know, he loved having some cash in his pocket, right? It's a big motivator for kids at that age, and nice for us to you as parents. And you know, but he was looking for other work. And some of the other places were asking for references. And so we talked about that. And yeah, some, some folks that he could ask, you know, and yeah, there's like, shortlist and, you know, we talked about, you know, the owner there. And he was like, oh, but Well, I guess so. But I, you know, want to ask her, I mean, you know, we've kind of talked through what you do and how to navigate it and, and be prepared for that process. So he's like, okay, yeah, okay, I can see asking him, so he went down, and, you know, he's gonna do his project. He said, Hey, um, you know, would you might be in a reference and everything. And, you know, the long the short of it, they figured out, yeah, but he asked, like, why chi, why are you asking for a reference? And he said, Well, you know, I'm interested in this kind of work. And some of the projects I do here, you know, like, I don't know, they're just not, I'm not really into it. I'm like, sitting static on the floor. And, you know, or, you know, just kind of at a desk, and I like to do some more physical things. And, you know, one night he was like, Oh, well, I definitely have projects like that. So, you know, thanks for letting me know, like, let's kind of, I still need some of the work you were doing. But I can mix in some of the other projects, things that you would like, and I remember kind of came back and he was like, Yeah, I'm going back there tomorrow to do work. And like Lee and I were like, what, like, we thought you were done there, too. Because you were, you know, he was like, No, when I mentioned physical, this and that and everything, like, you know, I got some projects. And now, you know, for the last couple of months, he's gone down once or twice a week, you know, and hat does is physical stuff with him and other things. So. So it was we were like, wow, well, like, look what happened there. Like we didn't even think that would happen that way. By our surprise, remember, he goes, Yeah, you guys were surprised? Like, what was that about? And we were like, well, figured, like, he has the work that he needs you to do. And you don't want to do that work. And that's just not a good match. But there you are just expressing a need you had and now you're getting your needs met, and he's getting some needs met. So don't forget that one. Yep. I like that.

I remember, you told me a bit about that before. And I just think it's so cool that we can offer the kind of support that like either way that's chosen, ultimately for their own benefit. And like you had said before, there's no wrong choice. I suppose the silent. Second part of that is there's no wrong choice. And we'll learn from whatever choice we make. Either it was aligned, or it wasn't okay. Yeah,

yeah, kind of the now. Yeah. And I think that makes me that has me thinking of just kind of going all the way back to this conversation and the stories we shared about, you know, our families and growing up that maybe, in some ways, like I was recounting a story, from, you know, sort of my high school years, that was more about like, personal choice and failing. And cause was kind of like, stay with the system I committed to or not, right. And I suppose I could look at the Sam I committed to a degree to do in Hebrew school and those kinds of things. But that was I was already in a mode of letting it go. Right. And so, you know, maybe those decisions are happening at the same time, but I did have a fleeting thought of, am I trying to expedite bigger decisions as a father now? That means the bigger decisions, you know, that I was making in life were happening later. I was raised in a relationship with my parents. So yeah, that'll be something to just kind of explore and think about but it just had me thinking. That felt like a bigger decision. What kind of just me it felt like a bigger decision than the one that I made. But, you know, beauty isn't the is the person that made the decision.

How many times have I heard that? Right?

Well, I want to share one more story of kind of that role, father holding space poor decision making. So I had to think about this with my three and a half year old. So one day he was with me as I was picking out clothes. And he started telling me what to pick out from the closet. I was like, Okay, you think I should wear the jeans today? Not the brown pants. He's like, Yeah. Okay. And then I started to encourage him to start picking out his clothes for the next day, for the day of if we hadn't put them out the night before. And it has become this little thing that, like, everyone has to make these decisions every day. Why not? Like, enjoy that with him and show him that this is fun. And like, I mean, I don't care what I choose from my closet. So it's my closet. He can he'll keep doing that. Like, he'll keep coming over and be like, Oh, dad read this. And then I'll be like, Okay, fine. Of all the things I can like control. Control around. I'm like, well, that's a good one. And then yeah, it's just fun to watch her like, carry

a piece of your son's decision making with you. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. The pants I'm wearing today. He chose the nice jeans, or

energy jeans. Okay. Thank you. I just curious because I can't see.

Yeah, so it's just it's fun to it's such a small decision. But for his age, it's totally appropriate that like, Here are these little things that he's going to choose what he's going to put on his body, which has to do with color, which has to do with if there's a dinosaur on it. And that's how he wants to feel today? Or which has to do with the weather and how to stay warm or cold. cool enough, though. Yeah, it feels it's it's such a silly, but kind of fun, cute version of this conversation when I look at it for his age level. Yeah.

For sure.

I got one more question press. How are you doing on time before we wrap up? Okay. I was thinking about like the evolution of this topic, as in like, someday our kids are going to be possibly going to be parents, we don't know for sure. But let's say they were going to be parents one day for the hypothetical question. And what might we imagine having? If we were around to see this? What might we see them doing with regard to this topic of holding space for their kids decision making? What might it look like? If we imagine that they've evolved a little bit from what we've been able to offer them?

Well, I think you name something that resonated read from the jump at the beginning of this conversation in your own reflections, right, not being, you know, so controlling, or read or so strong sometimes in a reaction, right. And, you know, how to channel that. Right. And, and, you know, generationally, like, you know, I got a short fuse, really the, you know, and the place that that shows up the most is, when I'm competing, you know, physically for sure, and whether it's Ultimate Frisbee or hockey or you know, or those kinds of things. And, and that response is in there, right? So, so I think just kind of being able to articulate what the feeling is, then, you know, and share it, you know, take the physical response and being able to communicate around it. You know, so I think, you know, them continuing to do that. And I see that in my kids, like, I see them, you know, see a reaction from me and be like, well, that you didn't have to react that way, right? And like, and then pointing it out and be like, oh, yeah, I got you, right. Or here's what was going on for me. And that actually lightens it for me. And I think it's something I see they're growing into, right? Because I didn't grow up with like, expressing my feeling around something and being able to communicate to meet a need and make a request. Like that's, you know, the language of nonviolent communication was not something that I grew up on, but I've learned. So I think that evolution for me, it would just kind of they, they're taking that on earlier, it's much more of a practice at a younger age. So as they're navigating it, and I, you know, I see it with their friends, I see it, you know, in their labs, and but I see their knee jerk reactions and responses and try to give it compassion and grace. So I guess that would be for me, you know, for them to be able to have that practice earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.

Yeah, I think. I mean, it's a total speculation, and an enjoyable, imaginary exercise to think that the next generation of parenting will be not only more respectful in the way that you spoke about, which I think is true. That's true of my kids. Potentially, there's more communication through some other mode of communication than talking. So physical touch, being a day like supportive physical touch, and even just none of that, like it could just be a look on the face. Could be some some thing that we might look for physically, or want to observe through a camera, but might also be stuff that's invisible, that we couldn't see that is only stuck because of, you know, if we can say energy in the body gets transmitted to the person next to us, and so that, that awareness and that kind of natural ability, maybe this is more like the way animals suit each other since they're not using words. I imagine as an exercise I imagined that could be another level of parenting. Yeah.

For sure, kind of being in the space and kind of paying attention to what these little micro interactions are or census. In some ways, I feel like I had named one when we talked about it with my daughter coming down the stairs and actually lifting her head because we hadn't seen each other in a few days. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, knowledge of this is different. You are here in my space. I'm here. We're here. And then that's okay. That's enough. Right then.

Right? Totally. I felt that enoughness. Yeah. Well, this conversation feels like we got to enoughness a good, good dive in. I want to know, Mike, what is one thing you're taking away from this conversation?

One thing, that's all I get to take,

do your briefest version,

whenever you like, I think that, you know, something that you brought to it read that the decision making, you know, with our kids, right can be very small ones and very big ones, right? And the noticing of them. And the magnifying of them can carry equal weight. Right? I'm big ones and little ones. So just just notice that they're like, small little signals for all of us involves, like, whether it's my kids and your kids or me and that interaction, just like a just a little noticing here and there to just point something out or acknowledge it. Yeah, it's just creates awareness. To go into the next decision that we face. Yeah.

I think for me, one thing I'm taking away is like, it's, I love these conversations where I'm talking to people with kids older than mine, because they get a little glimpse into what could be and what could be useful for me. And one of the things that stood out was, like, I've given my daughter, for example, advice to go talk to a teacher about something. What I haven't imagined is like, there's going to be a time especially and maybe it's now already, I just don't realize it, that her talking to her friends is a valid way for her to help her make a decision. So that was a nice nuance that I hadn't really been aware of before

with talking to teammates and the coach not necessarily like that already. Yeah,

that's a great way to put it. Yeah, not just the authority, but the peers. How do peers give me input about this? I don't think I'll use the word peers with her. But in any case, what word will use I will use their names. I've enjoyed this conversation, Mike. I appreciate your time and your energy and we're going to explore today.

We can add another list label to the list of things and relations that we've had to each other. Yeah, podcast people. Yes.

Yeah, goodbye for now. Goodbye.